Friends with Babylon

[TwochurchesOnly]

So great, rubbing shoulders with so many amazing people

[Mamabear]

This is a really wonderful post by Mamabear, and I want to thank her (correct pronoun? ) for it, and throw in my two cents worth. This happens to be one of my favorite topics, and this is a great excuse for me to bloviate a little bit. I especially liked the photo of "Babylon Sr, meet Babylon Jr."

Some thoughts on "seeking Zion" and "not seeking Zion."
The church today is clearly not "seeking Zion." In fact they're doing everything exactly opposite from that goal.

The situation of the original city of Zion is instructive, I believe. It was in one place, it had all the best rules, it had all the best people, and it had all the best defenses. No enemy in their right mind would bother the people of Zion. I assume the rule was that "friends were welcome and enemies were not (although exceptions were surely made all the time to stay in communication with the world.).

I believe a modern-day application of the City of Zion would mean that there was a constant aggressive gathering going on, so that people could leave Babylon and come to Zion and live with people who had the same values and they could all work together to protect themselves in various way from all the evil outside forces.

The only plausible strategic reason I can come up with for the outrageously expensive temple complex in Rome (would anyone else guess $1 billion?) is as a signal to the world that the LDS church is now ready to directly challenge the Roman Catholic Church to become its international replacement. The merging of the Church of God and the church of the devil appears to be what our current leaders have in mind. (That circa 300 A.D. Christian merger with the pagans and Constantine comes to mind.) All of our policies and practices seem to focus on that goal. Why would we go to all the trouble to make friends with 200 different governments around the world, most likely bribing them in various situations, to let the LDS church operate in their country and send money out of the country through the banking system, if that was not one of the goals?

Since very few of these countries actually have freedom of religion as a serious major policy, we can probably guess that we actually have 200 different versions of the LDS church which have been negotiated into existence in all of these different situations, with varying degrees of constraints on member activity and on church organizational activity. That sounds like a very Catholic sort of thing to do, since the Catholic Church has been modified a little bit in almost every country where it operates. I think the term "syncretism" applies. Each country might have their own saints, their own set of miracles, etc.

In order to demonstrate absolute obedience to the many tyrants around the world, and thus gain entrance and permission, the church adopts a child's version of the 12th article of faith:

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

The members are expected to be absolutely obedient and therefore good citizens in their home countries, no matter how much freedom they may be missing out on.

In contrast, here is the adult version of the 12th article of faith:

D&C 134:5 We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments;

Since the United States is (probably) the most free place on the planet, the church leaders living in the United States can live under the adult version of the 12th article of faith, while the members around the world must live under the child's version of that article. This is just another element of the class society which the church promotes.

The original doctrine of the gathering has been canceled by current church leaders (probably to keep the foreign members from collapsing those foreign churches as they come to seek freedom in the United States), but if it were still in effect we could have a very different international organization going on. People could learn of the gospel and then decide to move to Zion where they could add to the strength of Zion while enjoying all the benefits themselves. For example, if this new Zion was gathered somewhere in the United States so that it controlled the territory of several (all?) states, and, naturally, the political governments of the states, then the people within those states could set up the laws and rules as they prefer to get a proper Zion society going.

As it is, the LDS church controls no state. Theoretically, the church has a big influence in Utah, but that influence is more negative than positive. There are many states in our union who do more to improve education and make abortions unnecessary, etc., and have more righteous judges, then we have in Utah. The point is, perhaps counterintuitively, that the church would consider it a great detriment for it to live in a more freedom-loving Zion situation because that would make it less welcome as it tries to maintain ties with every other (contrasting, often tyrannical) country in the world. The church pretends that it is an authority which is higher than any nation and higher than the United Nations. That is a very prideful attitude, but I believe that is really what they think. They really do think like the old Catholic Church which imagined that it could manipulate all the "lesser" political entities in the world. However, rather then mix with them and become like them, I believe Zion requires a separation.

In today's world, where people can use the Internet to learn all they want about anything anywhere else in the world, there might not be any need whatsoever to send missionaries to these other countries. Those who already live there would be plenty of representatives for the church, aided by the Internet. All of the issues of visas and inoculations would simply be canceled out. Only Zion would have to worry about those kinds of things for the incoming people. Do a massive Christian "brain drain" on these countries and leave Babylon high and dry where all those Babylonians could fight among themselves.

Yup I’m a woman and proud of it. Lol!
Great thoughts.
I think the church has covered up the real gospel with their commandments of men. They have strayed very far from what Joseph Smith tried to restore…. He wanted the people to know they could achieve the higher blessings, ie. baptism by fire, calling and election, second comforter- the true ordinances of the gospel.
The church today worships the temple ordinances which are SUPPOSED to symbolize the inner ordinances I just mentioned. This is a counterfeit that has been set up by the enemy. The ordinances in the temple do not bring salvation. It is a foundation of sand that will sink. We need to rebuild on the rock which is Christ and that is where we obtain the true ordinances. We are sealed directly by the Holy Spirit of Promise which is Jesus Christ. This is the only sealing required as the scriptures testify.

“And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.“ D&C 76:53

“In whom ye also ​trusted,​ after that ye heard the word of truth, the ​​​gospel​ of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were ​​​sealed​ with that holy Spirit of ​​​promise​,“ Ephesians 1:13

“Wherefore, I now send upon you another ​​​Comforter​, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of ​​​promise​; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.
​​​4 ​This Comforter is the ​​​promise​ which I give unto you of ​​​eternal life​, even the ​​​glory​ of the celestial kingdom;“ D&C 88:3-4
(The second comforter=Jesus Christ)

[logonbump]

Oh, I understand you perfectly GS. You have made your opinion well known that you would rather die before getting the COVID shot.

Perhaps you should understand what the Church has to contend with today. Then you wouldn't be so harsh against the Church.

If you are living in another country, you are subject to the rules and regulations of that country. Being an American does not make you special in that regard.

If you live in a country where guns are illegal, unless you want to pay heavy fines or go to jail, you won't buy a gun, period. Why? Because you are under that country's jurisdiction, with a different definition of what constitutes rights. The expert views that many have here on the American Constitution will mean nothing in front of a Peruvian court, a Mexican court, or a Chilean court.

If a country, such as Colombia, mandates that people show a proof of vaccination before entering into a public building, even if the building is religious in nature, the people will obey and show that proof of vaccination, or they won't be let into the building. And it doesn't matter if the person entering the building is a missionary. It doesn't matter if the missionary is from America and has an American passport. BEING AN AMERICAN DOES NOT MAKE YOU SPECIAL. But using that as a trump call to flout local regulations makes one an AMERICAN IDIOT.

Why are you so focused on America?

I am a disciple of Christ first and only.

There are plenty, like yourself, from other countries. But those others also aren't willing to get the shot to travel.

Also, you know that the early apostles were killed for their beliefs, right?

Why is safety the rule above all others?
It is thinking like that that leads to jab mandates and lockdowns.

The primary responsibility of an Apostle is to preach the Gospel to all the world.

Apostles need to travel to minister to people around the world.

Yet they can't travel without a vaccine, and until recently, a mask.

Yet many people on here consider the vaccine and the mask a graver sin than disobeying the commandment of Jesus Christ to preach the gospel to everyone around the world, the PRIMORDIAL task of an Apostle.

If you believe Joseph Smith:

“The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.”

then the jab mandates and the travel delays don't matter.

Have faith in God, do not fear man.

You speak lightly, as tho you know what "the work" will entail. I understand it to be a destructive work, as well as a saving work; one of judgment and redemption happening concurrently. It will not be a pleasant sight for everyone; nevertheless it will go forth as prophesied.

[JuneBug12000]

Why are you so focused on America?

I am a disciple of Christ first and only.

There are plenty, like yourself, from other countries. But those others also aren't willing to get the shot to travel.

Also, you know that the early apostles were killed for their beliefs, right?

Why is safety the rule above all others?
It is thinking like that that leads to jab mandates and lockdowns.

The primary responsibility of an Apostle is to preach the Gospel to all the world.

Apostles need to travel to minister to people around the world.

Yet they can't travel without a vaccine, and until recently, a mask.

Yet many people on here consider the vaccine and the mask a graver sin than disobeying the commandment of Jesus Christ to preach the gospel to everyone around the world, the PRIMORDIAL task of an Apostle.

If you believe Joseph Smith:

“The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.”

then the jab mandates and the travel delays don't matter.

Have faith in God, do not fear man.

You speak lightly, as tho you know what "the work" will entail. I understand it to be a destructive work, as well as a saving work; one of judgment and redemption happening concurrently. It will not be a pleasant sight for everyone; nevertheless it will go forth as prophesied.

I don't mean to speak lightly. I know I don't know all that will happen, but I know what will happen to me and those I love. I have promises, and I have warnings. I have had my Abrahamic experience and I trust God.

[[email protected]]

I recall half of the statement was "live in the world ...." was it not? Seems a balance is needed, not saying where the balance should be, but anyone who thinks the LDS church is better off pis.........sing on everything governmental around the world, has no idea what the purpose of this telestial existence is or why we are here.

It wouldn't bother me so much what they're doing here if they weren't letting those Globalist agendas rub-off on them and then turn around to start teaching those things in General Confrence. I don't don't appreciate how they adopt mainstream media narratives saying racism is among the greatest evils we face today, denouncing supposed "white supremacy", changing Temple ordinances and so on.

[TheDuke]

layer8: I understand and I'm not saying "all is well in Zion" just that being "in the world" means some amount of compromise in many areas (taxes, laws, service, etc...) and has been the way since the beginning, and even Jesus accepted it (as did JS via AoF to follow laws), there is a balance, after all this is the Telestial World we're tested in, not the Celestial where those currently leading the world, will not have any power and where we are past testing. Essenes tried the live apart, and Jesus didn't suggest following them and their types. And all the world ISNT Babylon either, as I recall in ancient times there were many nations, only one was Babylon.

[[email protected]]

layer8: I understand and I'm not saying "all is well in Zion" just that being "in the world" means some amount of compromise in many areas (taxes, laws, service, etc...) and has been the way since the beginning, and even Jesus accepted it (as did JS via AoF to follow laws), there is a balance, after all this is the Telestial World we're tested in, not the Celestial where those currently leading the world, will not have any power and where we are past testing. Essenes tried the live apart, and Jesus didn't suggest following them and their types. And all the world ISNT Babylon either, as I recall in ancient times there were many nations, only one was Babylon.

Not to get too off track but I always understood "Babylon" to be synonymous with worldy civilization in general. Babylon is in present day Iraq, also known as Mesopotamia, also refered to by secular scholars as "the Cradle of Civilization. Babylon isn't pure evil perse, but it's controlled by those who are. That's my understanding anyway.

[Fred]

This video touts Capitalism. Warren Buffet points out how the largest companies in the world have changed over the last 30 years.

The LDS Church has stayed with the leaders. One can truly say that the LDS Church actually represents Babylon. There is no indication that the church's Christlike activities have increased at all. Certainly the church has zero money to help single women with children living on the street. Even in Salt Lake City.

The church does however, strongly support terrorist groups that riot and burn businesses down, racist organizations, abortions, malls and high rise apartments that poor people can't afford, the most evil Republican alive, Big Pharma whose goal is the destruction of mankind, etc.

[Jashon]

You are avoiding the point that I am making. Is joining with the United Nations to implement Agenda 2030 not political?

Yes, now Q15 swim with the evil Babylonian tide in their political affiliations. They used to swim against the tide, at least to a degree.

[Mamabear]

“Discrimination, violence, abuse — Sister Carol F. McConkie has been stunned by the huge degree of inequality women and girls experience around the world.

“It’s much more than I had ever even imagined,” she said, as she has now been serving as vice president of the NGO Committee on the Status of Women, Geneva for about a year. This nongovernmental organization committee promotes gender equality and the empowerment and defense of the rights of women and girls worldwide.”

https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-fa ... kie-255919

[Subcomandante]

“Discrimination, violence, abuse — Sister Carol F. McConkie has been stunned by the huge degree of inequality women and girls experience around the world.

“It’s much more than I had ever even imagined,” she said, as she has now been serving as vice president of the NGO Committee on the Status of Women, Geneva for about a year. This nongovernmental organization committee promotes gender equality and the empowerment and defense of the rights of women and girls worldwide.”

https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-fa ... kie-255919

Why is this a bad thing? Leave your bubbles and you would find out that these are real problems.

[XEmilyX]

I keep hearing people say that it’s good that the church is friends with the world, governments, organizations, and elite leaders…..The opposite is true.

“know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.”
James 4:4


E71300D6-B150-493D-9C12-AAEAD0EA6090.jpegCECCCEB4-C718-4968-A02A-F1C70014D112.jpeg4615D840-90D7-443E-8D3A-70A3E8ACD482.jpeg

Is the un in charge of this group?

[EvanLM]

“Discrimination, violence, abuse — Sister Carol F. McConkie has been stunned by the huge degree of inequality women and girls experience around the world.

“It’s much more than I had ever even imagined,” she said, as she has now been serving as vice president of the NGO Committee on the Status of Women, Geneva for about a year. This nongovernmental organization committee promotes gender equality and the empowerment and defense of the rights of women and girls worldwide.”

https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-fa ... kie-255919

Why is this a bad thing? Leave your bubbles and you would find out that these are real problems.

they are real problems but these organizations don't have the answer and are dangerously teaching our world that sin would make it better . . . not so . . .and we should NOT support sin and think that supporting it will make these girls feel better. or by supporting sin these girls will find Christ

[EvanLM]

the true HEROES in our world and for the history of the earth are those who did NOT support sin or immorality or loss of integrity