The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

[onefour1]

It is important that we understand that we have all fallen short of the glory of God and in and of ourselves we are unable to obtain the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Does this verse also apply to Jesus Christ?

I am surprised you would have to ask but no it does not apply to Jesus Christ.

Heb. 5
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

When it says all have sinned, will that also apply to the Children raised in the Millennium who "grow up without sin to salvation?"

The atonement of Christ applies to all who are the posterity of Adam and Eve. The fall of Adam and Eve brought a fallen state upon all and all who are of the posterity of Adam and Eve are subject to death. Without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ none of us would go on to receive immortality. Regardless of whether you harp upon the word, "sin" or not, we all are in need of the atoning sacrifice and without it we would be subject unto a bodily death for all eternity. Yes, even those who are born in the millennium will still need the atonement of Jesus Christ.

D&C 45
58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.

Does it apply to those who live and die without the law who are incapable of sinning?

Yes, as stated above, the atonement of Jesus Christ will apply to all the posterity of Adam and Eve. As I'm sure you already know, those who die without the law will have a chance to receive or reject that law when they are dead. This is why Jesus went and preached unto the dead and set up his missionary forces among them. All who are to inherit the kingdom of heaven will have to receive the law before they will be allowed into the kingdom. You can find cases to go against the words of Paul, but the atonement of Christ still applies to all those whom you find to have not sinned. We still have all fallen short and need the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Without Him, salvation is not possible.

Moro. 8
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

Realizing that without the law a person cannot sin... So, does that verse that says all sin also include those who are without the law?

Yes, there are cases where those without law will at sometime need to hear and accept the law. But without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, they would never rise from the dead to be received into the kingdom of heaven. Once they who were without law pass on, they will hear the gospel in the world of spirits and will there need to accept the law.

Moroni 8
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

There are many scriptures that say without first being placed under the law a person cannot sin.

Like I said, after death, all will be given a chance to receive or reject the law. They don't get an automatic pass into the kingdom without accepting it.

Alma 42:17
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

2 Nephi 2:13
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin…

Romans 7:8-9
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed (assigned ) when there is no law.

Alma 42:21
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

Romans 3:20
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1 Corinthians 15:56
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

What about the children in Zion whose parents do not teach them the gospel? It says the sin is on the head of the parents.

Those children will eventually die and will then need the atonement of Christ to resurrect and will also be given the law and will have to accept it in order to be accepted into the kingdom of heaven.

D&C 68
25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.

I think that the idea that all have sinned is only accurate when speaking to the audience Paul was talking to which is the Jews who were under the law. Everyone who is under the law is under the curse and must repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins.

You give a good sermon to counter the idea that not everyone sins while in this life. However, they are still part of the fallen race of Adam and Eve and will need the atonement of Christ to take part in the resurrection and will, in the world of spirits, need to accept the law of the celestial kingdom before they will be allowed entrance therein.

Luke 17:10
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Mosiah 2:21
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

Unprofitable servants doesn't mean sinners. It means we can never give more than we receive. This is true even after we make our Calling and Elections sure and are made perfect.

The term, "unprofitable servants" refers to the idea that we cannot earn our way back into heaven without the grace of Jesus Christ. Without it, we cannot receive the profit of being received into the kingdom of heaven or resurrect ourselves. We could do all the works we could possibly every muster and still fall short of resurrection and the kingdom of heaven without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. That is what being an unprofitable servant means and that is the meaning which I have used.

In and of ourselves it does not matter how much of a cross we carry if it is without the atoning sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We could do all the good works our whole souls could muster but if it is without the sacrifice Jesus has made, we are unprofitable servants.

You are mixing up the terms "sinners" with "unprofitable servants". Even when we receive the remission of our sins and are made clean through Christ we are still unprofitable servants.

Yes, because it wasn't due to our own works alone that we obtained that remission of sins. It must include the redeeming grace of Jesus Christ or we would never have received a remission of sin or be made clean, in other words, we would have been unprofitable.

It is only in and through his atoning sacrifice that we are saved.

Yes. Salvation happens when we enter in at the gate and receive the remission of our sins and the Gift of the holy Ghost. At this moment we are no longer Telestial people but have become Terrestrial people. We are saved from the fall and brought back into the same state Adam was in prior to the fall. Salvation and redemption mean to bring back or return to the original state. The original state was Terrestrial like the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were created in. It does not mean Celestial. We didn't fall from a Celestial state when Adam fell to the Telestial state. The term Salvation means to be brought back to the Terrestrial State. The Term Exaltation means that we progressed from the Saved or original state to a Celestial state. When Adam was placed in the garden of Eden with Eve, there was no Savior because they hadn't fallen yet.

Actually there was a Savior because he was appointed as one before the foundation of this world. His future atonement was not yet needed in the garden because Adam and Eve were not yet fallen.

The Savior and His atonement was provided after the fell to save them from the fall, back to the Terrestrial state. The Savior and Salvation has been done when we are returned back to a Terrestrial state. This is what the atonement was given for. It allows us to remain in a Terrestrial or saved state with the Gift of the Holy Ghost while we work out our exaltation. Salvation is a free gift, exaltation must be earned. In the garden state, there was no law and there was no sin. To be redeemed back to the original state, we must be brought out of the law so we can no longer sin. This is called being redeemed from the law.

Alma 42:21
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed (assigned ) when there is no law.

Alma 42:17
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

When we are saved, and brought back into a Terrestrial state, the law is removed, so it is impossible to sin, just like Adam could not sin in the garden.

Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal. 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 3:19
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:

Romans 6:14
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

2 Nephi 9:25
25 Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.

Gal. 4:4-5
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Because of the above, it is not possible for someone who is born of God to sin, just as it was not possible for Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden before he fell.

I don't believe that simply because those who become sons of perdition are first enlightened by the spirit of God and later reject it. If after first receiving the spirit the law was done away, they could never break the law thereafter. However, some do and fall under the law of the unpardonable sin. I believe that we are continually under the law. The change of heart that the spirit brings makes it so we agree with the law and are willing to abide by it. If we make mistakes, the atoning grace of Jesus Christ allows us to repent and receive forgiveness. This forgiveness does not do away with the law, it simply forgives you for breaking it as you go on to learn to more perfectly abide a celestial law. I believe what is said in your above quotes is that we are no longer just under the law but we are then under the mercy of Christ and can find forgiveness of sin as we learn to abide by a celestial law.

John 3:6-10
6 Whosoever abideth in him (Christ) sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

To abide in Christ is to keep his commandments which is the law of the celestial kingdom.
Doctrine and Covenants 88:22
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

Moroni 7:6-11
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

True, Jesus may require of us to repent and do good works, but the works we do do not save us.

I agree. Salvation is through Christ. Exaltation requires us to leave the principles of the doctrines of Christ and move on to perfection. Once we have entered in at the gate and been saved back to the Terrestrial state, we cannot fall again back to a Telestial state where we sin again, (walk out of the gate again), and then repent again. We can be saved only once, then there remains no more sacrifice for sin. If you truly fall again and have the mighty change of heart back to loving evil after you have been born of God and become a new creature, then you cannot be renewed again unto repentance.

Heb. 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb. 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

2 Nephi 31
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

Peace,
Amonhi

The verses you quote show that there are commandments which are the celestial law and if we should deny Christ after receiving so great a witness from the Holy Spirit of the knowledge of the truth , we may reach the point of not having the atoning mercy available to us.

[darknesstolight]

Fault means "responsibility for an accident or misfortune." It was no accident or misfortune. It was a decision or a choice knowing full well the results of that choice. If I run into a burning building to save my child, I know what I'm risking and taking on. Would you say it was my injuries, pain and suffering were my fault? Would you say that I deserved a recompense for my suffering such that because I did that a guilty person of my choosing should get to go free?

A very good metaphor.

...

[darknesstolight]

It is important that we understand that we have all fallen short of the glory of God and in and of ourselves we are unable to obtain the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Does this verse also apply to Jesus Christ?

I am surprised you would have to ask but no it does not apply to Jesus Christ.

Heb. 5
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

When it says all have sinned, will that also apply to the Children raised in the Millennium who "grow up without sin to salvation?"

The atonement of Christ applies to all who are the posterity of Adam and Eve. The fall of Adam and Eve brought a fallen state upon all and all who are of the posterity of Adam and Eve are subject to death. Without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ none of us would go on to receive immortality. Regardless of whether you harp upon the word, "sin" or not, we all are in need of the atoning sacrifice and without it we would be subject unto a bodily death for all eternity. Yes, even those who are born in the millennium will still need the atonement of Jesus Christ.

D&C 45
58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.

Does it apply to those who live and die without the law who are incapable of sinning?

Yes, as stated above, the atonement of Jesus Christ will apply to all the posterity of Adam and Eve. As I'm sure you already know, those who die without the law will have a chance to receive or reject that law when they are dead. This is why Jesus went and preached unto the dead and set up his missionary forces among them. All who are to inherit the kingdom of heaven will have to receive the law before they will be allowed into the kingdom. You can find cases to go against the words of Paul, but the atonement of Christ still applies to all those whom you find to have not sinned. We still have all fallen short and need the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Without Him, salvation is not possible.

Moro. 8
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

Realizing that without the law a person cannot sin... So, does that verse that says all sin also include those who are without the law?

Yes, there are cases where those without law will at sometime need to hear and accept the law. But without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, they would never rise from the dead to be received into the kingdom of heaven. Once they who were without law pass on, they will hear the gospel in the world of spirits and will there need to accept the law.

Moroni 8
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

There are many scriptures that say without first being placed under the law a person cannot sin.

Like I said, after death, all will be given a chance to receive or reject the law. They don't get an automatic pass into the kingdom without accepting it.

Alma 42:17
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

2 Nephi 2:13
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin…

Romans 7:8-9
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed (assigned ) when there is no law.

Alma 42:21
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

Romans 3:20
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1 Corinthians 15:56
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

What about the children in Zion whose parents do not teach them the gospel? It says the sin is on the head of the parents.

Those children will eventually die and will then need the atonement of Christ to resurrect and will also be given the law and will have to accept it in order to be accepted into the kingdom of heaven.

D&C 68
25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.

I think that the idea that all have sinned is only accurate when speaking to the audience Paul was talking to which is the Jews who were under the law. Everyone who is under the law is under the curse and must repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins.

You give a good sermon to counter the idea that not everyone sins while in this life. However, they are still part of the fallen race of Adam and Eve and will need the atonement of Christ to take part in the resurrection and will, in the world of spirits, need to accept the law of the celestial kingdom before they will be allowed to entrance therein.

Luke 17:10
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Mosiah 2:21
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

Unprofitable servants doesn't mean sinners. It means we can never give more than we receive. This is true even after we make our Calling and Elections sure and are made perfect.

The term, "unprofitable servants" refers to the idea that we cannot earn our way back into heaven without the grace of Jesus Christ. Without it, we cannot receive the profit of being received into the kingdom of heaven or resurrect ourselves. We could do all the works we could possibly every muster and still fall short of resurrection and the kingdom of heaven without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. That is what being an unprofitable servant means and that is the meaning which I have used.

In and of ourselves it does not matter how much of a cross we carry if it is without the atoning sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We could do all the good works our whole souls could muster but if it is without the sacrifice Jesus has made, we are unprofitable servants.

You are mixing up the terms "sinners" with "unprofitable servants". Even when we receive the remission of our sins and are made clean through Christ we are still unprofitable servants.

Yes, because it wasn't due to our own works alone that we obtained that remission of sins. It must include the redeeming grace of Jesus Christ or we would never have received a remission of sin or be made clean, in other words, we would have been unprofitable.

It is only in and through his atoning sacrifice that we are saved.

Yes. Salvation happens when we enter in at the gate and receive the remission of our sins and the Gift of the holy Ghost. At this moment we are no longer Telestial people but have become Terrestrial people. We are saved from the fall and brought back into the same state Adam was in prior to the fall. Salvation and redemption mean to bring back or return to the original state. The original state was Terrestrial like the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were created in. It does not mean Celestial. We didn't fall from a Celestial state when Adam fell to the Telestial state. The term Salvation means to be brought back to the Terrestrial State. The Term Exaltation means that we progressed from the Saved or original state to a Celestial state. When Adam was placed in the garden of Eden with Eve, there was no Savior because they hadn't fallen yet.

Actually there was a Savior because he was appointed as one before the foundation of this world. His future atonement was not yet needed in the garden because Adam and Eve were not yet fallen.

The Savior and His atonement was provided after the fell to save them from the fall, back to the Terrestrial state. The Savior and Salvation has been done when we are returned back to a Terrestrial state. This is what the atonement was given for. It allows us to remain in a Terrestrial or saved state with the Gift of the Holy Ghost while we work out our exaltation. Salvation is a free gift, exaltation must be earned. In the garden state, there was no law and there was no sin. To be redeemed back to the original state, we must be brought out of the law so we can no longer sin. This is called being redeemed from the law.

Alma 42:21
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed (assigned ) when there is no law.

Alma 42:17
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

When we are saved, and brought back into a Terrestrial state, the law is removed, so it is impossible to sin, just like Adam could not sin in the garden.

Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal. 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 3:19
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:

Romans 6:14
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

2 Nephi 9:25
25 Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.

Gal. 4:4-5
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Because of the above, it is not possible for someone who is born of God to sin, just as it was not possible for Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden before he fell.

I don't believe that simply because those who become sons of perdition are first enlightened by the spirit of God and later reject it. If after first receiving the spirit the law was done away, they could never break the law thereafter. However, some do and fall under the law of the unpardonable sin. I believe that we are continually under the law. The change of heart that the spirit brings makes it so we agree with the law and are willing to abide by it. If we make mistakes, the atoning grace of Jesus Christ allows us to repent and receive forgiveness. This forgiveness does not do away with the law, it simply forgives you for breaking it as you go on to learn to more perfectly abide a celestial law. I believe what is said in your above quotes is that we are no longer just under the law but we are then under the mercy of Christ and can find forgiveness of sin as we learn to abide by a celestial law.

John 3:6-10
6 Whosoever abideth in him (Christ) sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

To abide in Christ is to keep his commandments which is the law of the celestial kingdom.
Doctrine and Covenants 88:22
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

Moroni 7:6-11
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

True, Jesus may require of us to repent and do good works, but the works we do do not save us.

I agree. Salvation is through Christ. Exaltation requires us to leave the principles of the doctrines of Christ and move on to perfection. Once we have entered in at the gate and been saved back to the Terrestrial state, we cannot fall again back to a Telestial state where we sin again, (walk out of the gate again), and then repent again. We can be saved only once, then there remains no more sacrifice for sin. If you truly fall again and have the mighty change of heart back to loving evil after you have been born of God and become a new creature, then you cannot be renewed again unto repentance.

Heb. 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb. 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

2 Nephi 31
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

Peace,
Amonhi

The verses you quote show that there are commandments which are the celestial law and if we should deny Christ after receiving so great a witness from the Holy Spirit of the knowledge of the truth , we may reach the point of not having the atoning mercy available to us.

You have technically made a strawman argument. The question was not does the atonement apply but do those scriptures that say all are sinners apply to the children born in the millennium, for instance.

You answered that the atonement still applies, to a question about children being sinners in the millennium.

Are the children born during the millennium sinners?

...

[marc]

The point I am making here is that the concept of Jesus "paying our debt" by suffering the punishment owed to us as a result of our sins so we can be forgiven of our sins is not taught in the scriptures.

Peace,
Amonhi

Hello, Amonhi. Been a long time. How do you personally reconcile it with D&C 19, more specifically:

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

I realize that this scripture does not explicitly state that Jesus "paid our debt" although the Bible clearly states that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and that He bought us with a price (1 Cor. 6:20 and 1 Cor. 7:23).

Regarding Alma 34:12...therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.
and verse 14: And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.

Again, the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) but because Jesus was sinless, and being God, having eternal life, what was unjustly taken from Him was His life, which is eternal and infinite, having no end. And while God’s own justice must reject evil, which has no place in His kingdom, His own sacrifice makes possible His right of mercy. Lady Justice can demand of us death, and rightly so, for the wages of sin is death. But Jesus Christ who is our mediator (1 Timothy 2:5) and our intercessor (Hebrews 7:25) with the Father can, in effect, hold back the blindfolded Lady Justice and say to her, “you took from me my life, which is endless and infinite. Therefore, in restoring to myself what is infinite, I can claim ALL life.” Justice is necessarily satisfied. Therefore by claiming the right of mercy, we can indeed be forgiven of our sins if we repent.

Our lives begin anew as His children, for He is the Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6).

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name…

Those who believe in Jesus and believe Jesus will keep His sayings and do His will (John 7:17). This is how we come to know Him–by doing His will. Those who do His will are those who love Him. Personally speaking, I love Him because He first loved me.

Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

Mosiah 15:1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

In summary, it was necessary for Him to take upon Himself flesh, a son of man (Mark 10:45) with the capacity of a sinless son of God to not only suffer all the wrath of a just Father God in Gethsemane, but also to die as to the flesh. And it was also necessary for Him to die unjustly so that He could reclaim His life which is eternal and infinite, thus claiming us all in the process who believe in Him, repenting continually, drawing near to Him, becoming His children through His grace and mercy.

I might have prattled a bit, but this is where I'm coming from.

[darknesstolight]

I hear this idea taught frequently but I don't understand how Jesus gains the power to prevent a person from suffering for their poor choses because He suffered unjustly.

Jesus experienced through the Spirit and through life experiences all the types of suffering there is and still didn't retaliate, didn't commit sin, didn't stop loving, didn't stop being One with the Father, and He never doubted His divine heritage even though He had to forget and learn and grow just like all mortals.

Jesus Christ lived The Way thus showing that mankind is greater than the flesh and how do you overcome the flesh?

You, yes you, you have to be and do and live The Way and do the things Jesus did and be the way Jesus Christ is.

You are going to have to suffer for the sinners. You are going to have to love your enemies. You are going to have to turn the other cheek. You are going to have to take responsibility for your choses and be accountable. You are going to man up and pay the price. You are going to have to make your great and last sacrifice, even an infinite sacrifice.

Why CAN you do it? Don't take it for granted that you are or know to make a great and last sacrifice. Had Jesus Christ not lived The Way perfectly and had He not made the pathway available we would never be able to traverse it.

Jesus Christ, the resurrected being, the one who is meek and humble and confident and courageous and loves Himself and others perfectly and who has no ego, no pride, no need for anything man can give or offer DOES NOT WANT OR NEED OR DESIRE YOUR WORSHIP OR VENERATION. His feelings and ego isn't gonna be bruised if you don't praise Him occasionally. He doesn't want to be placed on a pedestal and worshipped. He wants you to remember the Good News! You are a Son of God and the Father has given you the same glory and loves you with the same love as His other son Jesus Christ. Jesus wants you to be One.

...

[onefour1]

It is important that we understand that we have all fallen short of the glory of God and in and of ourselves we are unable to obtain the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Does this verse also apply to Jesus Christ?

I am surprised you would have to ask but no it does not apply to Jesus Christ.

Heb. 5
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

When it says all have sinned, will that also apply to the Children raised in the Millennium who "grow up without sin to salvation?"

The atonement of Christ applies to all who are the posterity of Adam and Eve. The fall of Adam and Eve brought a fallen state upon all and all who are of the posterity of Adam and Eve are subject to death. Without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ none of us would go on to receive immortality. Regardless of whether you harp upon the word, "sin" or not, we all are in need of the atoning sacrifice and without it we would be subject unto a bodily death for all eternity. Yes, even those who are born in the millennium will still need the atonement of Jesus Christ.

D&C 45
58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.

Does it apply to those who live and die without the law who are incapable of sinning?

Yes, as stated above, the atonement of Jesus Christ will apply to all the posterity of Adam and Eve. As I'm sure you already know, those who die without the law will have a chance to receive or reject that law when they are dead. This is why Jesus went and preached unto the dead and set up his missionary forces among them. All who are to inherit the kingdom of heaven will have to receive the law before they will be allowed into the kingdom. You can find cases to go against the words of Paul, but the atonement of Christ still applies to all those whom you find to have not sinned. We still have all fallen short and need the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Without Him, salvation is not possible.

Moro. 8
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

Realizing that without the law a person cannot sin... So, does that verse that says all sin also include those who are without the law?

Yes, there are cases where those without law will at sometime need to hear and accept the law. But without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, they would never rise from the dead to be received into the kingdom of heaven. Once they who were without law pass on, they will hear the gospel in the world of spirits and will there need to accept the law.

Moroni 8
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

There are many scriptures that say without first being placed under the law a person cannot sin.

Like I said, after death, all will be given a chance to receive or reject the law. They don't get an automatic pass into the kingdom without accepting it.

Alma 42:17
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

2 Nephi 2:13
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin…

Romans 7:8-9
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed (assigned ) when there is no law.

Alma 42:21
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

Romans 3:20
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1 Corinthians 15:56
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

What about the children in Zion whose parents do not teach them the gospel? It says the sin is on the head of the parents.

Those children will eventually die and will then need the atonement of Christ to resurrect and will also be given the law and will have to accept it in order to be accepted into the kingdom of heaven.

D&C 68
25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.

I think that the idea that all have sinned is only accurate when speaking to the audience Paul was talking to which is the Jews who were under the law. Everyone who is under the law is under the curse and must repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins.

You give a good sermon to counter the idea that not everyone sins while in this life. However, they are still part of the fallen race of Adam and Eve and will need the atonement of Christ to take part in the resurrection and will, in the world of spirits, need to accept the law of the celestial kingdom before they will be allowed to entrance therein.

Luke 17:10
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Mosiah 2:21
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

Unprofitable servants doesn't mean sinners. It means we can never give more than we receive. This is true even after we make our Calling and Elections sure and are made perfect.

The term, "unprofitable servants" refers to the idea that we cannot earn our way back into heaven without the grace of Jesus Christ. Without it, we cannot receive the profit of being received into the kingdom of heaven or resurrect ourselves. We could do all the works we could possibly every muster and still fall short of resurrection and the kingdom of heaven without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. That is what being an unprofitable servant means and that is the meaning which I have used.

In and of ourselves it does not matter how much of a cross we carry if it is without the atoning sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We could do all the good works our whole souls could muster but if it is without the sacrifice Jesus has made, we are unprofitable servants.

You are mixing up the terms "sinners" with "unprofitable servants". Even when we receive the remission of our sins and are made clean through Christ we are still unprofitable servants.

Yes, because it wasn't due to our own works alone that we obtained that remission of sins. It must include the redeeming grace of Jesus Christ or we would never have received a remission of sin or be made clean, in other words, we would have been unprofitable.

It is only in and through his atoning sacrifice that we are saved.

Yes. Salvation happens when we enter in at the gate and receive the remission of our sins and the Gift of the holy Ghost. At this moment we are no longer Telestial people but have become Terrestrial people. We are saved from the fall and brought back into the same state Adam was in prior to the fall. Salvation and redemption mean to bring back or return to the original state. The original state was Terrestrial like the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were created in. It does not mean Celestial. We didn't fall from a Celestial state when Adam fell to the Telestial state. The term Salvation means to be brought back to the Terrestrial State. The Term Exaltation means that we progressed from the Saved or original state to a Celestial state. When Adam was placed in the garden of Eden with Eve, there was no Savior because they hadn't fallen yet.

Actually there was a Savior because he was appointed as one before the foundation of this world. His future atonement was not yet needed in the garden because Adam and Eve were not yet fallen.

The Savior and His atonement was provided after the fell to save them from the fall, back to the Terrestrial state. The Savior and Salvation has been done when we are returned back to a Terrestrial state. This is what the atonement was given for. It allows us to remain in a Terrestrial or saved state with the Gift of the Holy Ghost while we work out our exaltation. Salvation is a free gift, exaltation must be earned. In the garden state, there was no law and there was no sin. To be redeemed back to the original state, we must be brought out of the law so we can no longer sin. This is called being redeemed from the law.

Alma 42:21
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed (assigned ) when there is no law.

Alma 42:17
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

When we are saved, and brought back into a Terrestrial state, the law is removed, so it is impossible to sin, just like Adam could not sin in the garden.

Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal. 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 3:19
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:

Romans 6:14
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

2 Nephi 9:25
25 Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.

Gal. 4:4-5
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Because of the above, it is not possible for someone who is born of God to sin, just as it was not possible for Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden before he fell.

I don't believe that simply because those who become sons of perdition are first enlightened by the spirit of God and later reject it. If after first receiving the spirit the law was done away, they could never break the law thereafter. However, some do and fall under the law of the unpardonable sin. I believe that we are continually under the law. The change of heart that the spirit brings makes it so we agree with the law and are willing to abide by it. If we make mistakes, the atoning grace of Jesus Christ allows us to repent and receive forgiveness. This forgiveness does not do away with the law, it simply forgives you for breaking it as you go on to learn to more perfectly abide a celestial law. I believe what is said in your above quotes is that we are no longer just under the law but we are then under the mercy of Christ and can find forgiveness of sin as we learn to abide by a celestial law.

John 3:6-10
6 Whosoever abideth in him (Christ) sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

To abide in Christ is to keep his commandments which is the law of the celestial kingdom.
Doctrine and Covenants 88:22
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

Moroni 7:6-11
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

True, Jesus may require of us to repent and do good works, but the works we do do not save us.

I agree. Salvation is through Christ. Exaltation requires us to leave the principles of the doctrines of Christ and move on to perfection. Once we have entered in at the gate and been saved back to the Terrestrial state, we cannot fall again back to a Telestial state where we sin again, (walk out of the gate again), and then repent again. We can be saved only once, then there remains no more sacrifice for sin. If you truly fall again and have the mighty change of heart back to loving evil after you have been born of God and become a new creature, then you cannot be renewed again unto repentance.

Heb. 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb. 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

2 Nephi 31
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

Peace,
Amonhi

The verses you quote show that there are commandments which are the celestial law and if we should deny Christ after receiving so great a witness from the Holy Spirit of the knowledge of the truth , we may reach the point of not having the atoning mercy available to us.

You have technically made a strawman argument. The question was not does the atonement apply but do those scriptures that say all are sinners apply to the children born in the millennium, for instance.

You answered that the atonement still applies, to a question about children being sinners in the millennium.

Are the children born during the millennium sinners?

...

The true point of my post is that we are all reliant on the atonement of Jesus Christ and that we have all fallen short. The point about sinners is an issue you can take up with the Apostle Paul in the after life. All mankind regardless of whether they have sinned or not are still subject to death and are in need of the power of the atonement to be resurrected and still will need to accept the gospel upon death to enter into the kingdom of God. Thus all have fallen short and are in need of the Christ for salvation.

[darknesstolight]

Does this verse also apply to Jesus Christ?

I am surprised you would have to ask but no it does not apply to Jesus Christ.

When it says all have sinned, will that also apply to the Children raised in the Millennium who "grow up without sin to salvation?"

The atonement of Christ applies to all who are the posterity of Adam and Eve. The fall of Adam and Eve brought a fallen state upon all and all who are of the posterity of Adam and Eve are subject to death. Without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ none of us would go on to receive immortality. Regardless of whether you harp upon the word, "sin" or not, we all are in need of the atoning sacrifice and without it we would be subject unto a bodily death for all eternity. Yes, even those who are born in the millennium will still need the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Does it apply to those who live and die without the law who are incapable of sinning?

Yes, as stated above, the atonement of Jesus Christ will apply to all the posterity of Adam and Eve. As I'm sure you already know, those who die without the law will have a chance to receive or reject that law when they are dead. This is why Jesus went and preached unto the dead and set up his missionary forces among them. All who are to inherit the kingdom of heaven will have to receive the law before they will be allowed into the kingdom. You can find cases to go against the words of Paul, but the atonement of Christ still applies to all those whom you find to have not sinned. We still have all fallen short and need the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Without Him, salvation is not possible.

Realizing that without the law a person cannot sin... So, does that verse that says all sin also include those who are without the law?

Yes, there are cases where those without law will at sometime need to hear and accept the law. But without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, they would never rise from the dead to be received into the kingdom of heaven. Once they who were without law pass on, they will hear the gospel in the world of spirits and will there need to accept the law.

There are many scriptures that say without first being placed under the law a person cannot sin.

Like I said, after death, all will be given a chance to receive or reject the law. They don't get an automatic pass into the kingdom without accepting it.

What about the children in Zion whose parents do not teach them the gospel? It says the sin is on the head of the parents.

Those children will eventually die and will then need the atonement of Christ to resurrect and will also be given the law and will have to accept it in order to be accepted into the kingdom of heaven.

I think that the idea that all have sinned is only accurate when speaking to the audience Paul was talking to which is the Jews who were under the law. Everyone who is under the law is under the curse and must repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins.

You give a good sermon to counter the idea that not everyone sins while in this life. However, they are still part of the fallen race of Adam and Eve and will need the atonement of Christ to take part in the resurrection and will, in the world of spirits, need to accept the law of the celestial kingdom before they will be allowed to entrance therein.

Unprofitable servants doesn't mean sinners. It means we can never give more than we receive. This is true even after we make our Calling and Elections sure and are made perfect.

The term, "unprofitable servants" refers to the idea that we cannot earn our way back into heaven without the grace of Jesus Christ. Without it, we cannot receive the profit of being received into the kingdom of heaven or resurrect ourselves. We could do all the works we could possibly every muster and still fall short of resurrection and the kingdom of heaven without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. That is what being an unprofitable servant means and that is the meaning which I have used.

You are mixing up the terms "sinners" with "unprofitable servants". Even when we receive the remission of our sins and are made clean through Christ we are still unprofitable servants.

Yes, because it wasn't due to our own works alone that we obtained that remission of sins. It must include the redeeming grace of Jesus Christ or we would never have received a remission of sin or be made clean, in other words, we would have been unprofitable.

Yes. Salvation happens when we enter in at the gate and receive the remission of our sins and the Gift of the holy Ghost. At this moment we are no longer Telestial people but have become Terrestrial people. We are saved from the fall and brought back into the same state Adam was in prior to the fall. Salvation and redemption mean to bring back or return to the original state. The original state was Terrestrial like the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were created in. It does not mean Celestial. We didn't fall from a Celestial state when Adam fell to the Telestial state. The term Salvation means to be brought back to the Terrestrial State. The Term Exaltation means that we progressed from the Saved or original state to a Celestial state. When Adam was placed in the garden of Eden with Eve, there was no Savior because they hadn't fallen yet.

Actually there was a Savior because he was appointed as one before the foundation of this world. His future atonement was not yet needed in the garden because Adam and Eve were not yet fallen.

The Savior and His atonement was provided after the fell to save them from the fall, back to the Terrestrial state. The Savior and Salvation has been done when we are returned back to a Terrestrial state. This is what the atonement was given for. It allows us to remain in a Terrestrial or saved state with the Gift of the Holy Ghost while we work out our exaltation. Salvation is a free gift, exaltation must be earned. In the garden state, there was no law and there was no sin. To be redeemed back to the original state, we must be brought out of the law so we can no longer sin. This is called being redeemed from the law.

When we are saved, and brought back into a Terrestrial state, the law is removed, so it is impossible to sin, just like Adam could not sin in the garden.

Because of the above, it is not possible for someone who is born of God to sin, just as it was not possible for Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden before he fell.

I don't believe that simply because those who become sons of perdition are first enlightened by the spirit of God and later reject it. If after first receiving the spirit the law was done away, they could never break the law thereafter. However, some do and fall under the law of the unpardonable sin. I believe that we are continually under the law. The change of heart that the spirit brings makes it so we agree with the law and are willing to abide by it. If we make mistakes, the atoning grace of Jesus Christ allows us to repent and receive forgiveness. This forgiveness does not do away with the law, it simply forgives you for breaking it as you go on to learn to more perfectly abide a celestial law. I believe what is said in your above quotes is that we are no longer just under the law but we are then under the mercy of Christ and can find forgiveness of sin as we learn to abide by a celestial law.

To abide in Christ is to keep his commandments which is the law of the celestial kingdom.
Doctrine and Covenants 88:22
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.




I agree. Salvation is through Christ. Exaltation requires us to leave the principles of the doctrines of Christ and move on to perfection. Once we have entered in at the gate and been saved back to the Terrestrial state, we cannot fall again back to a Telestial state where we sin again, (walk out of the gate again), and then repent again. We can be saved only once, then there remains no more sacrifice for sin. If you truly fall again and have the mighty change of heart back to loving evil after you have been born of God and become a new creature, then you cannot be renewed again unto repentance.


Peace,
Amonhi

The verses you quote show that there are commandments which are the celestial law and if we should deny Christ after receiving so great a witness from the Holy Spirit of the knowledge of the truth , we may reach the point of not having the atoning mercy available to us.

You have technically made a strawman argument. The question was not does the atonement apply but do those scriptures that say all are sinners apply to the children born in the millennium, for instance.

You answered that the atonement still applies, to a question about children being sinners in the millennium.

Are the children born during the millennium sinners?

...

The true point of my post is that we are all reliant on the atonement of Jesus Christ and that we have all fallen short. The point about sinners is an issue you can take up with the Apostle Paul in the after life. All mankind regardless of whether they have sinned or not are still subject to death and are in need of the power of the atonement to be resurrected and still will need to accept the gospel upon death to enter into the kingdom of God. Thus all have fallen short and are in need of the Christ for salvation.

I know that was your point but your point does not answer the question posed to you.

The question that is being asked of you for you to honestly and sincerely answer is are kids born during the millennium sinners?

This is a critical point for what Amonhi is saying and he posed the question to demonstrate there are limits to seemingly universal statements such as "all are sinners" etc.

So there is a context that matters otherwise if we don't consider the proper context we will get the wrong understanding.

What does it mean for a person who is born during the millennium and who are not born into sin and who are sinless? What can that fact if we accept it inform us about the atonement or the work of Jesus?

Or we stick to an ideology or dogmatic beliefs.

...

[onefour1]

I am surprised you would have to ask but no it does not apply to Jesus Christ.

The atonement of Christ applies to all who are the posterity of Adam and Eve. The fall of Adam and Eve brought a fallen state upon all and all who are of the posterity of Adam and Eve are subject to death. Without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ none of us would go on to receive immortality. Regardless of whether you harp upon the word, "sin" or not, we all are in need of the atoning sacrifice and without it we would be subject unto a bodily death for all eternity. Yes, even those who are born in the millennium will still need the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Yes, as stated above, the atonement of Jesus Christ will apply to all the posterity of Adam and Eve. As I'm sure you already know, those who die without the law will have a chance to receive or reject that law when they are dead. This is why Jesus went and preached unto the dead and set up his missionary forces among them. All who are to inherit the kingdom of heaven will have to receive the law before they will be allowed into the kingdom. You can find cases to go against the words of Paul, but the atonement of Christ still applies to all those whom you find to have not sinned. We still have all fallen short and need the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Without Him, salvation is not possible.

Yes, there are cases where those without law will at sometime need to hear and accept the law. But without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, they would never rise from the dead to be received into the kingdom of heaven. Once they who were without law pass on, they will hear the gospel in the world of spirits and will there need to accept the law.

Like I said, after death, all will be given a chance to receive or reject the law. They don't get an automatic pass into the kingdom without accepting it.

Those children will eventually die and will then need the atonement of Christ to resurrect and will also be given the law and will have to accept it in order to be accepted into the kingdom of heaven.


You give a good sermon to counter the idea that not everyone sins while in this life. However, they are still part of the fallen race of Adam and Eve and will need the atonement of Christ to take part in the resurrection and will, in the world of spirits, need to accept the law of the celestial kingdom before they will be allowed to entrance therein.

The term, "unprofitable servants" refers to the idea that we cannot earn our way back into heaven without the grace of Jesus Christ. Without it, we cannot receive the profit of being received into the kingdom of heaven or resurrect ourselves. We could do all the works we could possibly every muster and still fall short of resurrection and the kingdom of heaven without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. That is what being an unprofitable servant means and that is the meaning which I have used.

Yes, because it wasn't due to our own works alone that we obtained that remission of sins. It must include the redeeming grace of Jesus Christ or we would never have received a remission of sin or be made clean, in other words, we would have been unprofitable.

Actually there was a Savior because he was appointed as one before the foundation of this world. His future atonement was not yet needed in the garden because Adam and Eve were not yet fallen.

I don't believe that simply because those who become sons of perdition are first enlightened by the spirit of God and later reject it. If after first receiving the spirit the law was done away, they could never break the law thereafter. However, some do and fall under the law of the unpardonable sin. I believe that we are continually under the law. The change of heart that the spirit brings makes it so we agree with the law and are willing to abide by it. If we make mistakes, the atoning grace of Jesus Christ allows us to repent and receive forgiveness. This forgiveness does not do away with the law, it simply forgives you for breaking it as you go on to learn to more perfectly abide a celestial law. I believe what is said in your above quotes is that we are no longer just under the law but we are then under the mercy of Christ and can find forgiveness of sin as we learn to abide by a celestial law.


The verses you quote show that there are commandments which are the celestial law and if we should deny Christ after receiving so great a witness from the Holy Spirit of the knowledge of the truth , we may reach the point of not having the atoning mercy available to us.

You have technically made a strawman argument. The question was not does the atonement apply but do those scriptures that say all are sinners apply to the children born in the millennium, for instance.

You answered that the atonement still applies, to a question about children being sinners in the millennium.

Are the children born during the millennium sinners?

...

The true point of my post is that we are all reliant on the atonement of Jesus Christ and that we have all fallen short. The point about sinners is an issue you can take up with the Apostle Paul in the after life. All mankind regardless of whether they have sinned or not are still subject to death and are in need of the power of the atonement to be resurrected and still will need to accept the gospel upon death to enter into the kingdom of God. Thus all have fallen short and are in need of the Christ for salvation.

I know that was your point but your point does not answer the question posed to you.

The question that is being asked of you for you to honestly and sincerely answer is are kids born during the millennium sinners?

This is a critical point for what Amonhi is saying and he posed the question to demonstrate there are limits to seemingly universal statements such as "all are sinners" etc.

So there is a context that matters otherwise if we don't consider the proper context we will get the wrong understanding.

What does it mean for a person who is born during the millennium and who are not born into sin and who are sinless? What can that fact if we accept it inform us about the atonement or the work of Jesus?

Or we stick to an ideology or dogmatic beliefs.

...

I think in my response to Amonhi I conceded that he made a good argument against Paul's reference to sinning to not really refer to absolutely all. However, my point in using Paul's quote, probably not the best quote to use to get across my point that we are all subject to the grace of Jesus Christ for our salvation and that we all, regardless, still fall short. Nobody makes it into the kingdom of heaven without the atoning grace of Jesus Christ.

[darknesstolight]

You have technically made a strawman argument. The question was not does the atonement apply but do those scriptures that say all are sinners apply to the children born in the millennium, for instance.

You answered that the atonement still applies, to a question about children being sinners in the millennium.

Are the children born during the millennium sinners?

...

The true point of my post is that we are all reliant on the atonement of Jesus Christ and that we have all fallen short. The point about sinners is an issue you can take up with the Apostle Paul in the after life. All mankind regardless of whether they have sinned or not are still subject to death and are in need of the power of the atonement to be resurrected and still will need to accept the gospel upon death to enter into the kingdom of God. Thus all have fallen short and are in need of the Christ for salvation.

I know that was your point but your point does not answer the question posed to you.

The question that is being asked of you for you to honestly and sincerely answer is are kids born during the millennium sinners?

This is a critical point for what Amonhi is saying and he posed the question to demonstrate there are limits to seemingly universal statements such as "all are sinners" etc.

So there is a context that matters otherwise if we don't consider the proper context we will get the wrong understanding.

What does it mean for a person who is born during the millennium and who are not born into sin and who are sinless? What can that fact if we accept it inform us about the atonement or the work of Jesus?

Or we stick to an ideology or dogmatic beliefs.

...

I think in my response to Amonhi I conceded that he made a good argument against Paul's reference to sinning to not really refer to absolutely all. However, my point in using Paul's quote, probably not the best quote to use to get across my point that we are all subject to the grace of Jesus Christ for our salvation and that we all, regardless, still fall short. Nobody makes it into the kingdom of heaven without the atoning grace of Jesus Christ.

Yeah, I did read where you said he made a good sermon or case.

As far as your point I think that is pretty clear all need the atonement of Jesus Christ.

...

[Lymelost]

Does anyone have a PDF copy or any sort of copy of The Atonement from the Elliaison website? The website won't load on any of my computers/browsers and sporadically loads on my phone.

[onefour1]

I think the atonement was also to bring about a just cause for God the Father to allow forgiveness of sin. Jesus was a sinless being who suffered to the extent that no other man could suffer. I think the infinite nature of his being allowed him to bear the suffering for our sins. Being the direct offspring of God our Eternal Father in Heaven and also being a sinless being gave him the power to be able to take upon himself such immense suffering that covered the entire human race. No one else that is mortal could have taken upon them such suffering as Jesus did. But I think one of the key elements of the atonement is that Jesus was sinless and never deserved any of the suffering and pain he went through. Not only was the suffering and pain a complete injustice to him but it also brings up the question of what is Jesus' recompense for this extreme injustice? God the Father would, in my estimation, of a necessity need to recompense the Christ for the complete and utter injustice that was brought upon his innocent, sinless son. What was the recompense that Jesus received for this greatest of all injustices? Was it not that he could bring about their immortality and resurrect all who have died and been separated from their bodies? Was it not that based upon the principle of repentance, that he could have mercy on those who change their behavior from doing evil to that of doing good. Not only, as you have mentioned, is it right for the victim to grant forgiveness but even more so that an innocent victim grant forgiveness through a just recompense. Not only is the recompense to be granted for the suffering of the innocent but also to the extent of the suffering of the innocent. Since Jesus suffered unjustly for all mankind, his Mercy is to be extended unto all mankind if they would simply repent of their sins. In my estimation, not only is the atonement a great act of mercy and love but also a just act to recompense the innocent victim for what he has suffered.

The concept of Jesus gaining a "recompense" for suffering more than anyone willing to suffer is not founded in principles taught in the scriptures or sound logic.

He he chose to suffer, then he doesn't deserve recompense any more than if I were to place my hand in a fire and burn myself to gain a recompense. I can't place myself in jail and then show that since I was innocent and unjustly punished I have a right to trade my unjust suffering for the just punishment of a true criminal. And say I suffered w years in jail unjustly, so for recompense I want this truly guilty person who has a 1 year jail sentence to serve no time.


No court would or should uphold such a tactic because to doesn't follow correct principles and leaves the demand for justice unsatisfied.

Peace,
Amonhi

So it is your opinion that because of his choice to be a Savior that he brought upon himself all the suffering that he endured?

Did he choice to do it? Yes. Did he want to? No. Did he do it anyway? Yes. Was it forced on him by God? No. Was he wrongly convicted by God such that God messed up and accidentally punished the wrong person so that he was owed a recompense? No. If he was owed a recompense, would it be just for that recompense to be that the guilty go free without justice being fulfilled? No.

I do not agree with you on this statement, "If he was owed a recompense, would it be just for that recompense to be that the guilty go free without justice being fulfilled? No." Alma 42:25 25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God. God does not cease to be God and all his works are just. Those who receive mercy are required to repent and forsake their sins. Thus no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven. Mercy cannot rob justice. Thus the Mercy that is granted is justified. Is it justified through the actions of the sinners? No. It is justified through the atonement of Jesus Christ. As a recompense for the injustice that Jesus suffered, he is given the right to forgive whom he will forgive and it is just.

In other words, it was his fault?

Fault means "responsibility for an accident or misfortune." It was no accident or misfortune. It was a decision or a choice knowing full well the results of that choice. If I run into a burning building to save my child, I know what I'm risking and taking on. Would you say it was my injuries, pain and suffering were my fault? Would you say that I deserved a recompense for my suffering such that because I did that a guilty person of my choosing should get to go free?

Fault refers to who holds blame for an injustice. There was an injustice since Jesus was a lamb without blemish and did not deserve to suffer or die. Surely God our Eternal Heavenly Father would recompense the Christ for the injustice he suffered. I would not say that you were at fault for being burned in a fire for attempting to save your child. The fault would be on whoever set the fire or was negligent and did not take necessary precautions to prevent the fire from occurring. If a third party arson set fire to the building would you not have any recourse against the arson even though you chose to enter the building to save your child? If another child other than yours was saved by you, would it not be just for the Father of that child to offer you a recompense or reward for your unjust suffering in the arson's fire? I certainly do not believe that Jesus was to blame for the injustices he suffered. If the Father allowed the pain and suffering then He certain should recompense the Christ for those sufferings. My personal belief is that the Father allowed it because it would bring about a greater good by saving many of his other children. However, I also believe that the infliction of the pain and suffering was not done directly by the Father but by those wicked ones who were thrown out of heaven and they who listed to obey them in his crucifixion.

So who in your mind brought the punishment upon Jesus?

Who said he was punished? What was he punished for? If I ran into a burning building to save someone from the flames, would you say my pain and suffering were a punishment I was given for doing so? Who would you say was the punisher?

I believe Christ was definitely punished for all our sins. This was the injustice of it all. He was a sinless being who suffered for the sins of all the world. He wasn't punished for anything he did. He was punished for all that we do wrong. This injustice deserved a recompense. If you ran into the building to save someone, I would say that you were punished by the flames caused by those responsible for the fire.

Do you think it was God the Father who punished Jesus? Did Jesus punish himself? Or just maybe it was the devil and his minions who caused the suffering in the garden.

I remember reading that an angel was present strengthening Jesus while he struggled being "exceeding sorrowful, even unto death:" in the garden of Gethsemane. I do not recall the devil being present until Judas betrayed him.

It is my opinion that the Father allowed the suffering of Jesus to bring about a greater good all the while expecting to recompense him for his dutiful service. However, I don't believe the Father would be justified in punishing or causing the suffering of Jesus when he did not sin. This why I believe that Satan and his minions were ready and willing to do the task if God allowed it. Just because someone or some being is not mentioned in being in a certain place in scripture does not mean that they weren't there. Sure this is my personal opinion but do your really think that God the Father was there whipping his innocent son for all the sins of everyone else? I seriously doubt it.

Sure it was allowed by the Father and Jesus himself. But that does not mean that it was a just punishment to a completely innocent and sinless being. Perhaps this was the will of the Father so that he could grant unto the lamb without blemish a just recompense.

There you go, the animal sacrifice, the lamb or sin offering. Who was it that inflicted the pain and suffering on the lamb in the ritual that mirrored the atonement? It was the people who were seeking to save themselves from their sins. That would mean the pain was administered by those of us who want to save themselves. Jesus taught, "whatsoever ye do to the least of these, ye have done to me." Have you ever hit someone? If so, then you have hit Christ because he suffered that hit so that he could become the victim of your sins. Only the victim has the right to offer forgiveness. There is no punishment or unjust recompense. If you hit me, I can choose to forgive you or not. No one else has the right to forgive you for hitting me unless they suffered with me the pain you caused by your sin. Jesus had to become the victim of all sins in order to gain the right to offer forgiveness. No one else can offer forgiveness except the victim. he chose to experience sin as the victim, not as the sinner. It wasn't a punishment. It was an offering of love, just as if you hit me and I allowed it because I loved you. "Whatsoever ye do to these... ye have done to me..."

Your argument itself allows Jesus to have the right to forgive by suffering for the sins of the the whole world. Does not the right of suffering bring him unto justification to grant forgiveness? If this is allowed by the Father is the right to forgive not a recompense for his suffering? Using your own argument against you, did not Jesus bring this suffering upon himself by choosing to undergo the suffering? Why, if he chose to undergo the suffering, should he have a right to forgive the sins? Did he not bring it upon himself? Jesus was an innocent victim of the punishments he bore since he was an infinitely sinless being. The suffering he bore deserved a recompense. He was granted the right to forgive all who repent and come unto Christ. This recompense coved the extent of his suffering. If I, as a person innocent of murder, take upon me a life sentence for murder, am I allowed to forgive a murderer of his sin? No.
Alma 34:11-12
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.
What is it that allows Christ to do it but does not allow us to do it? It is because Christ is an infinite atoning sacrifice. The difference between we fallen humans and Christ is that Christ was born of the Father and held infinite life within him and the fact that he was a sinless being. Jesus qualified as an infinite atonement and we do not. His sinless and perfect nature allows him to be completely innocent of any suffering that would occur to him. He and He alone qualifies as an infinite atoning sacrifice. Thus He deserved none of the suffering and pain which he bore nor the death he suffered. As an inifinite being he had the power to take his life again and he also was given the recompense for his suffer to be allowed to forgive all those who repent and come unto him of their sins. No other man/woman who suffers the punishment of sin that another commits is capable of granting forgiveness to that person. It is not a power granted for simply suffering the same as another victim. It requires and infinite sacrifice. It requires a sinless sacrifice.

Is God to blame for all the sins of the world because he didn't intervene and stop the free will of all of us?

No, Satan or Azazel is because he taught all unrighteousness.

No, we are to blame for our own sins...

Only if we do not repent. If we repent, then the punishment of sin is placed on the head of Azazel or Satan who becomes responsible or accountable for our sins, just as parents are responsible or accountable for the sins of their children who were taught badly. The name "Azazel" is translated to be "Scapegoat" in our Bible. The atonement required more than Jesus. He was only half of the ordinance. The other half of the ordinance is Azazel, the scapegoat.

Here is the ordinance performed on the Day of Atonement that required two goats, one was the Lord and one was Azazel or the Scapegoat.

Lev. 16
7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for (Azazel) the scapegoat.
9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. (No sins on His head, innocent.)
10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be (Azazel), the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
...
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat (Azazel), and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

From the Book of Enoch we learn why the sins of the repentant are placed on Azazel's head and why he take responsibility and accountability and therefore the punishment...

Enoch 10
8. And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azâzêl: to him ascribe all sin.'

This follows the same principle spelled out in D&C 68 where sins of the children are placed on the heads of parents because they taught the children to do evil.

D&C 68
25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.

The sins of the people were never placed on Jesus and he was never responsible for them or accountable for them. Azazel was. We don't owe Azazel/Satan any thanks for taking our sins because he was he is truly guilty of them, (if we repent). He intentionally taught and tempted us to sin to destroy us. He deserves the punishment for our sins. Jesus doesn't. Justice is fulfilled against Azazel/Satan, if we repent and show that we only did it because we didn't know better, but when we know better, we do better. Justice is not robbed when the sins are placed on the parents nor when the sins are placed on Azazel/Satan. Mercy is offered to the repentant and Jesus as the victim of our sins is able to offer that mercy.

...even though God has the power to intervene but chooses not to. So too, Christ is not the cause of his punishments and neither He nor God the Father are to blame for them.

The punishments go to Azazel/Satan. He's the guilty and the right person to suffer for the sins of the repentant, not Christ. Justice cannot be fulfilled against the innocent, only the guilty. Azazel/Satan is the guilty. The sins are placed on his head, not the Lord's. The suffering of the Lord was not a punishment. The suffering of Satan is. The suffering of the Lord was a sin offering in which Jesus offered to suffer at our hands the pains we caused others so that he could become the victim of our sins and by his offering gain the right to forgive which is a right only the victim possesses.

As I stated above, only an infinite atonement can suffice for the forgiveness of sins to enter the kingdom of heaven. As Alma taught in Alma 34, no man can suffer for the sins of another and be just. It requires and infinite atonement. Jesus was the only one to qualify. His suffering for our sins gave him and him alone the right to forgive so that we could be cleansed to enter his kingdom. Merely suffering as another victim does not qualify. It requires and infinite sacrifice of which Jesus was the only one to qualify. His sinless nature and him being an infinite being who being born of the Father was evidently not subject to death as we are qualified him to lay down his life and take it up again through his own power. It wasn't simply that he became a like victim for we cannot do the same.

The outcome of Jesus' suffering, even though He or the Father may have had the power to intervene, does not lead to the conclusion you make that He and His Father are to blame for the injustice that was brought upon him.

It wasn't an injustice. It would have been an injustice if he were falsely punished on behalf of the guilty for sins he did not commit. It was an offering. He chose to offer himself a sacrifice for sin, which means he willingly submitted himself to be the victim of our sins. That's why in the old Testament, the sinner seeking forgiveness would pick up a knife and kill the symbol of Jesus Christ (lamb) to show that we are the ones who are killing him. We are the ones holding the knife that takes his life, causes him suffering and spills his blood by our sins or actions toward others which he willingly suffers so that he can forgive us as the victim of all our sins. This is why he said to love your enemy. Do good to those who do bad to you. Save him suffering by not causing others to suffer. "Whatsoever ye do to the least of these, ye have done to me."

Like I said, just by being a similar victim does not qualify just anyone to have the power to forgive sin. Jesus needed to be an infinite atonement to qualify to be the savior of the world. There is more to the story of Jesus qualifying as the Savior where no other man/woman on this earth would qualify by being a similar victim. It required him to be a being who deserved none of the suffering (punishment for our sins) and deserved a recompense for the injustice which was placed upon him.

Surely the beatings and crucifixion was not the fault of Jesus or the Father. It was done by wicked men who saw Jesus as a threat to their established hypocrisies. They were the cause of his suffering on the cross.

Yes, the scriptures are very clear that Satan inspired those including Judas, (who played the role of Azazel in the live atonement), to kill Jesus.

Luke 22:3-4
3 ¶ Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.

John 13:26-27
26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

And I believe Satan and his minions were the cause of Jesus' sufferings in the garden of Gethsemane.

The angel was there, not the devil. Satan was in Judas preparing to betray Jesus while Jesus was in the Garden.

I don't believe that it states that Satan remained in Judas all the time before and after Judas' betrayal.

Sure it was allowed by the Father and Son to bring about the cause of righteousness but they only took advantage of the evil that existed to bring about a righteous and Holy cause. They were not the ones who held the whip while Jesus was being beaten.

lol, no, we were/are. We are the ones that hold the whip. Jesus was speaking literally when he said whatsoever ye do to the least of these ye have done to me. Just like Abraham held the knife intending to kill his own son as the symbol of Jesus, we too hold the knife intending to kill Jesus when we sin against our brothers and sisters. He is them, He experiences what we do to them. We cause him pain when we cause them pain. Not as a punishment for our evil, but as a victim of our evil. Think of everyone you ever treated badly and realize that Jesus experienced their pain and suffering which you caused them. He willingly did it so that he could say to you, "I forgive you." That is the OFFERING, not the punishment.

The offering included the punishment for all the sins of the world.

They were not the ones who drove the nails through his hands and feet and lifted him up upon the cross. And I believe that they were not the ones who brought the suffering upon Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. I believe the Devil and his minions were responsible for that.

In a way the devil and his minions were responsible for it because they inspired you to sin against others causing them the pain which Jesus suffered in the garden.

Jesus only did that which was good and right upon the earth. He was without sin. He deserved no punishment in the least.

Yes, he was completely innocent which made him 100% the victim.

Only through the knowledge that wicked beings exist and were ready to unleash all manner of suffering upon him did he place himself in the fire.

Yes. We are the wicked beings that did/do it to him. We are the ones that cause him to suffer by the way we treat others. Or, we are the righteous beings who comfort him and ease his suffering by the way we treat others.

But it was for the most noble and righteous cause of all. He certainly did not deserve it. He was the most innocent being to ever live upon the face of this earth. I can't say that no court on this earth would find him innocent, but I know that the court in heaven has already found him innocent of all charges and that he has won the right as a recompense for his suffering to grant forgiveness to all those who repent and forsake their sins and come unto the lamb without blemish.

I agree except that he did not "win the right as a recompense for his suffering", if he did without becoming the victim, then the actual victims would be robbed justice since they are the ones demanding it.

If you intentionally broke my leg because you wanted to feel powerful and I demanded justice, but Jesus said I suffered so much that I have the right to forgive him for hurting you, then I was robbed justice.

It would require repentance on the part of myself before Jesus would forgive me. This would mean attempting to make restitution for breaking your leg. If I did all I could to make restitution by paying your medical bills, perhaps paying you for the hurt, maybe letting you break my leg and then if I took it to the Lord I believe he would have the right to forgive me even if you begrudgingly were addiment to not forgive me.

But if you broke my leg and Jesus suffered it with me, then Jesus would know how to succor me because he experienced what I did. And, he would be able to forgive you if you truly repented because He was the victim too. If I still demanded justice, I would be satisfied that the true reason you did that was because you were being influenced by Azazel/Satan and the sin would be placed on Azazel/Satan's head. Justice would be served and Mercy would be granted without robbing justice.

Alma 7
12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

I don't believe that simply suffering in like manner as another victim gave Jesus the complete and total right to forgive sin. I don't believe that we, as fallen men, are allowed to do the same as Alma 34 states. It requires more than that. According to Alma it required that Jesus be and infinite sacrifice. To me, that would mean that He was completely deserving of the right to forgive sin by way of his infiniteness. Which to me means that his complete and total innocence deserved a recompense since He should never have had to go through what he did based upon his siinless nature and perfection. I believe it was explained to Jesus before the foundation of this world what the reward or recompense would be and that He would be able to save his loving brothers and sisters. The recompense was motivation enough for one who was of the character of Jesus. He simply was willing to make the sacrifice to earn the right to forgive. He loved the Father and He loved each one of us so dearly that he was willing to make the sacrifice that would bring to him the recompense to bring forgiveness of sin and immortality to all his brothers and sisters.

I think you make many great and valuable comments in your responses. Thank you for the conversation even though we both disagree. God bless you.

Peace,
Amonhi

[XEmilyX]

This is evil doctrine.

[onefour1]

This is evil doctrine.

What doctrine are you referring to?

[XEmilyX]

This is evil doctrine.

What doctrine are you referring to?

What was written.

[Amonhi]

Some interesting thoughts here.

D&C 19 indicates he absolutely suffered for the sinners. So does Mosiah 16. He paid out debts.

I reread Mosiah 16 again, slower this time. I don't see anything in it that says that he suffered for the sinners.

I also searched the scriptures for "paid debt". There are no references to spiritual debts being paid by the atonement.

Sorry, Mosiah 15.
9 Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice

12 For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?

This clearly says he took upon him our iniquity and sin, redeemed us (what does it mean to redeem something) and satisfied what is owed to justice. And it clearly states he died for the sinner.

Yes, I see how you can interpret these verses to be saying that he took upon himself the punishments for our sins. It doesn't use those words, but it is the common interpretation that I grew up with and I believe that most Christians currently believe.

I also am able to see another meaning that I believe is more accurate. I've read every verse in the scriptures that uses the words punish, punished or punishment and none of them relate to the atonement or what Christ suffered. Wouldn't it be easy and expected that if you and I could articulate the idea that Jesus was punished on our behalf, for us according to the punishment we were owed as a result of our sins, that some prophet in the scriptures would have said it when speaking about the atonement. That being the case, the scriptures like the one you called out here say that he took upon himself their iniquity and their transgression. And verse 12 says "whose sins he has borne". What does that mean?

Clearly, the words "sin", "iniquity" and "transgression" are broad and ambiguous terms that could mean anything from lying to murder. This being the case it is easy to do the mental gymnastics required to assume that Jesus didn't actually bear our sins as the scripture says but rather bore our punishments, as you and other say. But that isn't actually what it says, or it would just say he bore our punishments. But he didn't bear our punishments, he bore our sins. These are two very different things.

To see how this works, we can use basic logic... The logic is that if we replace the word "sin" that could mean a wide range of things with specific examples of sins then the meaning of the sentence will not be changed. So, if we list any sin and swap the word, then the sentence will still be accurate although focused on a single sin. Let's try it and see how it reads.

Instead of sin let's use the word "rape"...
"For these are they whose rape he has borne"

First, notice that it doesn't say "For these are they whose punishments for rape he has borne", which is how you are reading it. It says "sin" like "rape". It doesn't matter what sin you put in there, it never says he bore the punishment for the sin, it says he bore the sin.

How does a person bear the sin of another person? Let's try a few examples and see which one fits best?

• A man raped a woman. Do we say, "The man bore the rape"? = No, that doesn't sound right does it.
  • The rapist doesn't bear the burden of the rape, unless you are saying that he felt guilty for the rapping a woman in which he didn't bear the burden of the rape, but he bore the burden of guilt for committing rape.
• A man raped a woman. Do we say, "The woman bore the rape"? = Yeah, this one sounds right and makes sense because the sin of rape caused a burden to the woman which she had to bear or deal with.
  • It is clearly the woman who was raped that bore or dealt with the burden of the sin. Victims of sin always bear the burden of the sin, not the committers of sin. Pick any sin and it is the victim that bears the sin, (even if the victim is yourself). For example:
  • The victim bears the loss when a thief commits the sin of stealing.
  • If I hit you in the face, you bore the pain and suffering of my sin. I could say that you bore my attack. Since my attack was a sin, we could say that you bore my sin. But we could not say that I bore my attack on you. That's like saying you hit my fist with your face and I had to bear the pain of my hurt fist.

So, the scriptures say that Christ bore our sins and transgressions. That doesn't mean that he bore our punishments, it means he bore our sins. How did he bear our sins? Lets use his own words slightly modified to include different sins or things which are more easily recognized as sins, (in a way that I think you will agree is accurate and fair in keeping with the original intent of his message). I think this will helps us to see more clearly how he bore our sins...

Matt. 25
31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was weak, and ye gave me strength: I had wealth and ye were glad for me: I was trusting, and ye were honest with me:
36 naive, and ye taught me: I was different, and ye accepted me: I was your enemy, and ye loved me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee weak, and strengthened thee? or wealthy and were glad for thee? or trusting and were honest with thee?
38 When saw we thee naive, and taught we thee? or differed, and accepted thee?
39 Or when saw we thee our enemy, and loved thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was weak, and ye raped me: I had property and ye stole from me:
43 I was trusting, and ye lied to me: naive, and ye took advantage of me: different, and ye tormented and hit me, and I was your enemy, and ye murdered me.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee weak, or wealthy, or trusting, or naive, or different, or our enemy, and did sin against you?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus literally taught that he experienced what others do to us and what we do to others, from the view point of the person being acted upon. THIS IS IMPORTANT!!! Jesus didn't say he experienced being the actor, but he said he experienced being acted upon!

He didn't say, I experienced being you hitting others, he said I experienced being others when you hit them. He didn't say I experienced what it was like to be you raping the woman when you raped the woman, he said, I experienced what it was like being raped by you. Every example he gave was from the side of the receiver, not the giver; from the side of the acted upon, not the actor. He experienced the life of the victim, not the criminal or sinner. This is really important because he was and remained innocent. Satan on the other hand no doubt enjoys experiencing life as the rapist, as the liar, and the thief and as the sinner.

So, Jesus bore our sins which literally means that he suffered the effects of our sins. The scripture also says, he "taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions". This means the same thing. He took upon himself our iniquities and our transgressions, not the punishments for our iniquities and transgressions. Again, swap out specific iniquities or transgressions and see what Jesus took upon himself.

He took upon himself our thief, our lies, our hatred, our violence, etc. he didn't take upon himself our jail time, our fines, our punishments, our eternal damnation, our judgement, our condemnation, etc.

Can you see that the scriptures are saying one thing and most people are interpreting them to say something entirely different? And if you swap out the word "sins" for specific sins, it is easier to see what he did. And, to make the scriptures actually say what most people think they say, we have to change the sentence entirely and add in concepts and words like "the punishment for" to make the scriptures match their beliefs, for example, we have to change the sentence from,

"He took upon himself our (sins), rape, lying, stealing, adultery, etc."
"He took upon himself the punishment for our (sins), rape, lying, stealing, adultery, etc."

Does that make sense? Can you see it? Can you see how he bore our sins? And how in doing so he gained the right as the victim to offer us forgiveness?

In his stripes we are healed.

Here is another way to look at this and see why Jesus had to become the victim of our sins. As you see this, notice how it is perfectly aligned with all his teachings...

If a man gets angry at another man and hits him, we call that assault. It's a sin, its a crime, he will be punished and go to jail, etc.
But, if the person being hit allowed it, agreed to it, permitted it, accepted it, etc... then we do not call it assault. It is not a sin, it is not a crime, he will not be punished or go to jail. For example if they were boxing or sparing, or in a karate class or friends playing around, then it was not a sin/crime. You see, the person who is getting hit decides whether or not it was a crime/sin or not. Have you ever heard police say, "do you want to press charges?" What they are asking is, "Do you want to make their action a crime/sin or do you want to forgive them and make their scarlet sins white as snow? The only person who has the ability to make that decision is the person who was hit. The judge can't because if the person who was hit said they didn't want it, allow it or accept it then the judge must honor the victim and exact justice from the criminal/sinner. Even if Jesus took the punishment in place of the criminal/sinner, the crime or sin remains on their record, it doesn't become "white as snow" as if it never was a crime/sin at all. Jesus had to be experience the pain of the hit so that he could say, "I allowed him to hit me. I submitted myself to it and bore it and took it upon myself to be hit. I will not press charges." In so doing, our sins that were as scarlet instantly become white as snow as if we were intentionally boxing or playing around. The only way this could happen was for Jesus to take upon himself our sins, our offenses, and our transgressions. It is a simple solution to the problem, but the pain of taking on the world's sins and suffering for the sins of the world was immense and something that Jesus didn't want to do but understood had to be done.

This is how I read the scriptures you shared above and I believe that it is consistent with all the scriptures on the topic. He bore our sin and took upon himself our iniquities and transgressions, not our punishments, damnation or condemnation.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Oh gosh… not this “assent” crap again…

What do you mean by "assent"? And what makes it crap in your opinion?

He is talking about this scripture...

D&C 132:26-27
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

The scripture says that the unpardonable sin is to commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent to the death of Christ after receiving the new and everlasting covenant.

The word assent means,

to agree to or approve of something (such as an idea or suggestion) especially after thoughtful consideration - https://www.merriam-webster.com/

Synonyms for "assent" include:

ASSENT, CONSENT, ACCEDE, ACQUIESCE, AGREE, SUBSCRIBE mean to concur with what has been proposed. ASSENT implies an act involving the understanding or judgment and applies to propositions or opinions. voters assented to the proposal CONSENT involves the will or feelings and indicates compliance with what is requested or desired. consented to their daughter's going ACCEDE implies a yielding, often under pressure, of assent or consent. officials acceded to the prisoners' demands ACQUIESCE implies tacit acceptance or forbearance of opposition. acquiesced to his boss's wishes AGREE sometimes implies previous difference of opinion or attempts at persuasion. finally agreed to come along SUBSCRIBE implies not only consent or assent but hearty approval and active support. subscribes wholeheartedly to the idea

The scripture clearly says that the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is directly tied to assenting to the death of Jesus Christ.

This then brings up the question, "Aren't we taught to assent to his death as a requirement for salvation?"

It appears that Alexander thinks the scripture asserting that "assenting to Christ's death" is directly connected to "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world" and therefore something that we should not be doing, is... "crap".

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

It is important that we understand that we have all fallen short of the glory of God and in and of ourselves we are unable to obtain the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Amonhi provides multiple examples of people who did not sin, and asks if this verse applies to them...

You give a good sermon to counter the idea that not everyone sins while in this life. However, they are still part of the fallen race of Adam and Eve and will need the atonement of Christ to take part in the resurrection and will, in the world of spirits, need to accept the law of the celestial kingdom before they will be allowed entrance therein.

I completely agree with you. I noticed that in your response you left the concept that "all sin and fall short of the glory of God" and focused on the need for the atonement. These are two different concepts entirely. And as you pointed out, even the people who do not sin still need the atonement. Here is an example of how people who do not sin are covered by the atonement...

Moroni 8
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
...
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing

Notice that they do not sin, AND are alive in Christ and covered by the power of redemption. Just as you pointed out.

My point in the previous post was not to say they did not need the atonement, but that the statement "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" is inaccurate when viewed outside the audience Paul was familiar with or at least talking to. Not all have sinned. So often people read it for what it says and blindly accept that it is universally true and applied to everyone. As I showed, it is not. And as you pointed out, even when it is not true, the atonement is still in force. The difference is that the atonement is in force and effective without conditions of repentance and baptism for the remission of sin for those who have not sinned. But it is conditional and requires repentance and baptism for the remission of sins for those who have sinned.

Peace,
Amonhi

[darknesstolight]

This is evil doctrine.

What is "this"? What do you mean by "evil"?



...

[Luke]

Oh gosh… not this “assent” crap again…

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

[darknesstolight]

I don't want to be praised and worshipped. Even if I was super awesome in everything and in every way.

I used to have low self esteem and lacked self confidence. When I was in that condition I did want and even needed validation or praise from others. It made me feel better about myself when I received praise, at least temporarily.

But the desire, want, need for others to recognize my greatness, to praise and validate, was a weakness. It isn't a trait of Godliness.

Jesus Christ wants you to worship the principles of Christ, the idea of Christ, but not Him the person. He is totally ego free and totally confident in Himself. He is humble, meek, kind, and understanding. He is fun and jolly. He isn't a serious, pious, self righteous prude.

Holy people aren't all socially polite and they don't need social validation or praise.

So worshipping Jesus Christ isn't about praising Him and venerating Him so He knows you recognize He is on the pedestal and you aren't. Worship and praise is about gratitude and love and joy for God and His great mercy. It's about genuinely feeling gratitude to Jesus Christ because you know Him.

...

[XEmilyX]

repent!

[Amonhi]

Unprofitable servants doesn't mean sinners. It means we can never give more than we receive. This is true even after we make our Calling and Elections sure and are made perfect.

The term, "unprofitable servants" refers to the idea that we cannot earn our way back into heaven without the grace of Jesus Christ. Without it, we cannot receive the profit of being received into the kingdom of heaven or resurrect ourselves. We could do all the works we could possibly every muster and still fall short of resurrection and the kingdom of heaven without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. That is what being an unprofitable servant means and that is the meaning which I have used.

I agree. Well put.

In and of ourselves it does not matter how much of a cross we carry if it is without the atoning sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We could do all the good works our whole souls could muster but if it is without the sacrifice Jesus has made, we are unprofitable servants.

You are mixing up the terms "sinners" with "unprofitable servants". Even when we receive the remission of our sins and are made clean through Christ we are still unprofitable servants.

Yes, because it wasn't due to our own works alone that we obtained that remission of sins. It must include the redeeming grace of Jesus Christ or we would never have received a remission of sin or be made clean, in other words, we would have been unprofitable. [/quote]
I see. Yes, I agree.

It is only in and through his atoning sacrifice that we are saved.

Yes. Salvation happens when we enter in at the gate and receive the remission of our sins and the Gift of the holy Ghost. At this moment we are no longer Telestial people but have become Terrestrial people. We are saved from the fall and brought back into the same state Adam was in prior to the fall. Salvation and redemption mean to bring back or return to the original state. The original state was Terrestrial like the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were created in. It does not mean Celestial. We didn't fall from a Celestial state when Adam fell to the Telestial state. The term Salvation means to be brought back to the Terrestrial State. The Term Exaltation means that we progressed from the Saved or original state to a Celestial state. When Adam was placed in the garden of Eden with Eve, there was no Savior because they hadn't fallen yet.

Actually there was a Savior because he was appointed as one before the foundation of this world. His future atonement was not yet needed in the garden because Adam and Eve were not yet fallen.

Yes, I agree. It seems that we are discussing semantics here. I was referencing the wording used in the temple Endowment where God said,

If he yields to temptation, we will give unto him the law of sacrifice, and we will provide a Savior for him, as we counseled in the beginning, that man may be brought forth by the power of the redemption and the resurrection, and come again into our presence, and with us partake of eternal life and exaltation.

The statement is an If/Then statement which says If Adam falls, Then we will provide a Savior. However, you are correct, a Savior was selected before the earth was formed which is also mentioned in this quote when it says, "as we counseled in the beginning". I think we both agree on all the related points here and don't need to get tripped up on the limitations of communicating via the written word.

I don't believe that simply because those who become sons of perdition are first enlightened by the spirit of God and later reject it. If after first receiving the spirit the law was done away, they could never break the law thereafter.

The unpardonable sin is to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, not to blasphemy against the law. When we enter in at the gate, through repentance, we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. If we blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, then we are walking back out of the gate and giving up the gift of the Holy Ghost. This is unpardonable. However, any and all sins against the law can and are forgiven instantly after we enter in at the gate and receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. This only works because after we are saved back to a Terrestrial state where we can hear the voice of God/Holy Ghost, we are alive in Christ, just like little children and just like Adam in the Garden of Eden, both of which could not sin. It doesn't matter what actions a little child takes, they are not sins. They are alive in Christ. This is because they have no desire to do evil which is the requirement for sin. Mormon teaches this principle in Moro. 7:6 where he said, "God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing."

This same principle is taught by Jesus and King Benjamin and lots of other prophets. The principle is that if you have the desire for evil, then you are evil and nothing you can do is counted to you as good. And, conversely, when a person experiences the mighty change of heart so that they have no more desire to do evil, but desire to do good continually, the same but opposite effect happens. For such people, because they desire to do good, nothing they do is counted to them as evil. King Benjamin gives an example of how this works when he said,

Mosiah 4
24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.
25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.

He says it is a sin to not give to the poor, but those who give not because they have but would give if they had remain guiltless. What would someone who has had the mighty change of heart do? Well, of course they would give to the poor if they felt they could.

The point is that wicked people can't do good because their hearts are wicked, so no matter what they do it is counted as evil against them. And, righteous people
can't do evil because in their heart they only desire to do good continually. Even when they make mistakes and mess up, it is counted to them as good... because they ARE good, not because they are acting good, they really are good. So, they can and do have the Holy Ghost as a constant companion, even when, like little children, they sometimes make mistakes or struggle to do the right things because we live in a complex and challenging world, we have bad habits and addictions and struggle with all sorts of things. A mother who has had a stressful day might still yell at her children in a way that is not Christ like or even kind. Yet, she wants to be a good mother and her desire is to do good and raise her children in the right way. She may not know how to do that or fall back into bad habits sometimes, but it is counted as righteousness to her and the spirit remains with her, teaching her and guiding her and whispering to her how she can do better.

The scriptures tell us that the spirit will "strive with us" but, if we turn entirely back to Satan then the spirit will stop striving with us and we will be ripe for destruction.

2 nephi 26
11 For the Spirit of the Lord will not always strive with man. And when the Spirit ceaseth to strive with man then cometh speedy destruction, and this grieveth my soul.

But, notice here in this verse that the Lord says that if they sin UNTIL THEY ARE FULLY RIPE they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord... Meaning that they remain in his presence, (the gift of the Holy Ghost), even though they are sinning because they are not fully ripe.

Ether 2
15 And the brother of Jared repented of the evil which he had done, and did call upon the name of the Lord for his brethren who were with him. And the Lord said unto him: I will forgive thee and thy brethren of their sins; but thou shalt not sin any more, for ye shall remember that my Spirit will not always strive with man; wherefore, if ye will sin until ye are fully ripe ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And these are my thoughts upon the land which I shall give you for your inheritance; for it shall be a land choice above all other lands.

Dada-dummmmm. If that statement doesn't change your mind... I'm not sure you believe the scriptures.

Here is an example of how bad a person has to become before the Spirit ceases to strive with them and they are ripe for destruction.

Ether 15
19 But behold, the Spirit of the Lord had ceased striving with them, and Satan had full power over the hearts of the people; for they were given up unto the hardness of their hearts, and the blindness of their minds that they might be destroyed; wherefore they went again to battle.

As long as we do not sin until we are "fully ripe" we will not be cut off from the presence of the Lord, which means we will not lose the gift of the Holy Ghost and the comforter will remain our constant companion. This is why we are promised that the Holy Ghost can be a constant companion even though we are not perfect and continue to make mistakes, even "sins". If in our hearts we still desire to do and be good, then we remain alive in Christ while we progress on the path that leads to eternal life with the Holy Ghost as our constant companion guiding us, helping us to see our mistakes and how to overcome them.

The Holy Ghost cannot dwell in unclean temples and so, while it strives with you, you remain in the Lord's presence and you are clean. Even when you do things you shouldn't be doing, just like a little child does things they shouldn't do and still remains alive in Christ. This is why the Holy Ghost is telling you to not do something while you are doing it. LOL. It's guiding you and directing you and you remain in an innocent state while you progress under its guidance. I know a Bishop who was committing adultery and wondering why he still had the spirit directing him in his calling and family and other areas of life. It confused him. This is why. He was caught and excommunicated and later rebaptized, but it puzzled him how he could have have the Holy Ghost while he was committing adultery.

This then bring us back to the concept of the unpardonable sin. Those who commit the unpardonable sin have become fully ripe we to the point that they are ready for destruction. The spirit ceases to strive with them because they have turned away from it so hard that they have walked back out of the gate and turned back to the desire for evil so that Satan has full sway over their hearts. They have rejected or blasphemed against the Holy Ghost that they had received. They cast it out because they didn't want to hear it any more. That is the unpardonable sin.

However, some do and fall under the law of the unpardonable sin. I believe that we are continually under the law. The change of heart that the spirit brings makes it so we agree with the law and are willing to abide by it. If we make mistakes, the atoning grace of Jesus Christ allows us to repent and receive forgiveness. This forgiveness does not do away with the law, it simply forgives you for breaking it as you go on to learn to more perfectly abide a celestial law. I believe what is said in your above quotes is that we are no longer just under the law but we are then under the mercy of Christ and can find forgiveness of sin as we learn to abide by a celestial law.

Some times the right thing to do is to break the law. This is expected which is why the law written on stone is replaced with the law written in our hearts and minds. The external law of carnal commandments that once was written on stone and now is contained in the Bishop's Handbook of instruction is not amendable and does not take anything into account. The Lord has said repeatedly that we will not be His people until that law is replaced with the law written in our hearts and our minds.

Jeremiah 31:31–33
31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

We become His people and the outer law given by Moses is replaced by the inner law written in our hearts and minds when our sins are forgiven and we receive the Holy Ghost.

Heb. 10
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

If the law external law was good enough, and never intended to be broken, then there would be no need to have a new law written in our hearts and minds. I have had several occasions in which the spirit instructed me to break the external law that I was committed to keep, and it was done for the glory of God and the blessing of His children. It was difficult at first to obey the spirit in that it was telling me to break the external law of God. To which Jesus said, "I was he who gave the law. Marvel not that it should be done away."
Nephi taught that the law should be done away when it is fulfilled in Christ and when that time is come we should not harden our hearts against Christ.

2 Nephi 25
27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

But, should the law be done away for everyone? No. Only those who have come to Christ and received the Spirit.

Gal. 5
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal. 3
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Is the law written in our hearts and our minds really a law the way the old law external law was? No, not really.
The old external law included punishment for breaking it. That punishment was spiritual death which means no longer in the presence of God and the threat of eternal punishment for our sins.

Alma 42:17
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

Moroni 8:22-24
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

If there is no punishment, or condemnation, then the law isn't really a law, it's a suggestion. This is true of our legal system too. This is an important point because after we are born again and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost which does not dwell in unclean temples and remains with us until we are fully ripe for destruction... we are alive in Christ. That means we are not under condemnation and there is no spiritual punishment for sin or spiritual death unless/until we blaspheme the Holy Ghost and it ceases to strive with us. As long as we still strive to do good, we remain alive in Christ, clean from our sins and worthy of the Holy Ghost as our constant companion. There is no punishment for sins and therefore no law the way it used to be. So, while we call it a law in our hearts and in our minds, our sins against it do not deprive us of the spirit or presence of God. We are not under condemnation or the threat of punishment for breaking the law in our hearts and minds. That isn't needed as a motivating factor for us anymore. Our desire to do good because of the mighty change of heart is our motivation. We do not fear the external law or it's punishments, instead, we focus on our internal desire to do good having faith in Christ who is mighty to save. That internal desire to do good is what helps us to discover the law in our hearts and in our minds. Without that desire, we could not have the law written in our hearts and in our minds nor could we be clean of our sins and worthy of the Holy Ghost.

The verses you quote show that there are commandments which are the celestial law and if we should deny Christ after receiving so great a witness from the Holy Spirit of the knowledge of the truth , we may reach the point of not having the atoning mercy available to us.

Yes, there is a Celestial law or way of living. It cannot be written because it changes and adapts the the situation. In the Celestial law, sometimes it is right to lie or deceive like when God told Abraham to misrepresented his true relationship with his wife to Pharaoh and when God sent the lying spirit to deceive all the prophets so King Ahab would go to war and die, or when the Germans who were hiding Anne Frank in their attic lied to the Nazis to save her life. And under the Celestial law, we need to know when it is moral to kill and when it is not right. Or when it is right to break the Sabbath day, like when Jesus defended his apostles picking corn on Sunday by pointing out several instances when the law was broken by David and others and it was good.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

It is important that we understand that we have all fallen short of the glory of God and in and of ourselves we are unable to obtain the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Does this verse also apply to Jesus Christ?

I am surprised you would have to ask but no it does not apply to Jesus Christ.

Heb. 5
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

When it says all have sinned, will that also apply to the Children raised in the Millennium who "grow up without sin to salvation?"

The atonement of Christ applies to all who are the posterity of Adam and Eve. The fall of Adam and Eve brought a fallen state upon all and all who are of the posterity of Adam and Eve are subject to death. Without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ none of us would go on to receive immortality. Regardless of whether you harp upon the word, "sin" or not, we all are in need of the atoning sacrifice and without it we would be subject unto a bodily death for all eternity. Yes, even those who are born in the millennium will still need the atonement of Jesus Christ.

D&C 45
58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.

Does it apply to those who live and die without the law who are incapable of sinning?

Yes, as stated above, the atonement of Jesus Christ will apply to all the posterity of Adam and Eve. As I'm sure you already know, those who die without the law will have a chance to receive or reject that law when they are dead. This is why Jesus went and preached unto the dead and set up his missionary forces among them. All who are to inherit the kingdom of heaven will have to receive the law before they will be allowed into the kingdom. You can find cases to go against the words of Paul, but the atonement of Christ still applies to all those whom you find to have not sinned. We still have all fallen short and need the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Without Him, salvation is not possible.

Moro. 8
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

Realizing that without the law a person cannot sin... So, does that verse that says all sin also include those who are without the law?

Yes, there are cases where those without law will at sometime need to hear and accept the law. But without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, they would never rise from the dead to be received into the kingdom of heaven. Once they who were without law pass on, they will hear the gospel in the world of spirits and will there need to accept the law.

Moroni 8
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

There are many scriptures that say without first being placed under the law a person cannot sin.

Like I said, after death, all will be given a chance to receive or reject the law. They don't get an automatic pass into the kingdom without accepting it.

Alma 42:17
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

2 Nephi 2:13
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin…

Romans 7:8-9
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed (assigned ) when there is no law.

Alma 42:21
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

Romans 3:20
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1 Corinthians 15:56
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

What about the children in Zion whose parents do not teach them the gospel? It says the sin is on the head of the parents.

Those children will eventually die and will then need the atonement of Christ to resurrect and will also be given the law and will have to accept it in order to be accepted into the kingdom of heaven.

D&C 68
25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.

I think that the idea that all have sinned is only accurate when speaking to the audience Paul was talking to which is the Jews who were under the law. Everyone who is under the law is under the curse and must repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins.

You give a good sermon to counter the idea that not everyone sins while in this life. However, they are still part of the fallen race of Adam and Eve and will need the atonement of Christ to take part in the resurrection and will, in the world of spirits, need to accept the law of the celestial kingdom before they will be allowed to entrance therein.

Luke 17:10
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Mosiah 2:21
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

Unprofitable servants doesn't mean sinners. It means we can never give more than we receive. This is true even after we make our Calling and Elections sure and are made perfect.

The term, "unprofitable servants" refers to the idea that we cannot earn our way back into heaven without the grace of Jesus Christ. Without it, we cannot receive the profit of being received into the kingdom of heaven or resurrect ourselves. We could do all the works we could possibly every muster and still fall short of resurrection and the kingdom of heaven without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. That is what being an unprofitable servant means and that is the meaning which I have used.

In and of ourselves it does not matter how much of a cross we carry if it is without the atoning sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We could do all the good works our whole souls could muster but if it is without the sacrifice Jesus has made, we are unprofitable servants.

You are mixing up the terms "sinners" with "unprofitable servants". Even when we receive the remission of our sins and are made clean through Christ we are still unprofitable servants.

Yes, because it wasn't due to our own works alone that we obtained that remission of sins. It must include the redeeming grace of Jesus Christ or we would never have received a remission of sin or be made clean, in other words, we would have been unprofitable.

It is only in and through his atoning sacrifice that we are saved.

Yes. Salvation happens when we enter in at the gate and receive the remission of our sins and the Gift of the holy Ghost. At this moment we are no longer Telestial people but have become Terrestrial people. We are saved from the fall and brought back into the same state Adam was in prior to the fall. Salvation and redemption mean to bring back or return to the original state. The original state was Terrestrial like the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were created in. It does not mean Celestial. We didn't fall from a Celestial state when Adam fell to the Telestial state. The term Salvation means to be brought back to the Terrestrial State. The Term Exaltation means that we progressed from the Saved or original state to a Celestial state. When Adam was placed in the garden of Eden with Eve, there was no Savior because they hadn't fallen yet.

Actually there was a Savior because he was appointed as one before the foundation of this world. His future atonement was not yet needed in the garden because Adam and Eve were not yet fallen.

The Savior and His atonement was provided after the fell to save them from the fall, back to the Terrestrial state. The Savior and Salvation has been done when we are returned back to a Terrestrial state. This is what the atonement was given for. It allows us to remain in a Terrestrial or saved state with the Gift of the Holy Ghost while we work out our exaltation. Salvation is a free gift, exaltation must be earned. In the garden state, there was no law and there was no sin. To be redeemed back to the original state, we must be brought out of the law so we can no longer sin. This is called being redeemed from the law.

Alma 42:21
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed (assigned ) when there is no law.

Alma 42:17
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

When we are saved, and brought back into a Terrestrial state, the law is removed, so it is impossible to sin, just like Adam could not sin in the garden.

Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal. 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 3:19
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:

Romans 6:14
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

2 Nephi 9:25
25 Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.

Gal. 4:4-5
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Because of the above, it is not possible for someone who is born of God to sin, just as it was not possible for Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden before he fell.

I don't believe that simply because those who become sons of perdition are first enlightened by the spirit of God and later reject it. If after first receiving the spirit the law was done away, they could never break the law thereafter. However, some do and fall under the law of the unpardonable sin. I believe that we are continually under the law. The change of heart that the spirit brings makes it so we agree with the law and are willing to abide by it. If we make mistakes, the atoning grace of Jesus Christ allows us to repent and receive forgiveness. This forgiveness does not do away with the law, it simply forgives you for breaking it as you go on to learn to more perfectly abide a celestial law. I believe what is said in your above quotes is that we are no longer just under the law but we are then under the mercy of Christ and can find forgiveness of sin as we learn to abide by a celestial law.

John 3:6-10
6 Whosoever abideth in him (Christ) sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

To abide in Christ is to keep his commandments which is the law of the celestial kingdom.
Doctrine and Covenants 88:22
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

Moroni 7:6-11
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

True, Jesus may require of us to repent and do good works, but the works we do do not save us.

I agree. Salvation is through Christ. Exaltation requires us to leave the principles of the doctrines of Christ and move on to perfection. Once we have entered in at the gate and been saved back to the Terrestrial state, we cannot fall again back to a Telestial state where we sin again, (walk out of the gate again), and then repent again. We can be saved only once, then there remains no more sacrifice for sin. If you truly fall again and have the mighty change of heart back to loving evil after you have been born of God and become a new creature, then you cannot be renewed again unto repentance.

Heb. 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb. 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

2 Nephi 31
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

Peace,
Amonhi

The verses you quote show that there are commandments which are the celestial law and if we should deny Christ after receiving so great a witness from the Holy Spirit of the knowledge of the truth , we may reach the point of not having the atoning mercy available to us.

You have technically made a strawman argument. The question was not does the atonement apply but do those scriptures that say all are sinners apply to the children born in the millennium, for instance.

You answered that the atonement still applies, to a question about children being sinners in the millennium.

Are the children born during the millennium sinners?

...

Right. That's what I saw as well. I think that at this point we all agree that the statement that "all sin" is not correct and that even those who do not sin need the atonement to overcome the effects of the fall of Adam including physical death via the resurrection of the dead.

Peace,
Amonhi

[darknesstolight]

"Christ be magnified in me on the alter of my life"

I can't imagine except it be through the power of God that Jesus Christ endured so perfectly His suffering not to mention His suffering through the Spirit.

As I live my life I am confronted with a series of events and challenges that test my faith in Christ. My struggles have been great and its been all I can do to keep my eye single to the glory of God and even then I stumble and wreck things as I try to fix them.

The things Jesus Christ endured perfectly is amazing and unfathomable to me. Only at brief moments when filled to capacity of God's power do discern some understanding. I stand amazed. I am so grateful for His life and His teachings. I thank the Father for His Spirit which IS life, light, and truth. The very Word. The Spirit by which Jesus Christ was filled with. The very same Spirit that is All in All. Jesus Christ showed me the way. The Spirit witnesses to me that Christ is The Way and that I should bow my ego and my will over to that Spirit, the Spirit of Life who I AM and am a part of.

We are Sons and Daughters of God in the flesh working out our salvation with meekness and humility or not.

...

[darknesstolight]

According to Alma it required that Jesus be and infinite sacrifice. To me, that would mean that He was completely deserving of the right to forgive sin by way of his infiniteness.

By way of His infiniteness? This argument
of yours seems like a weak argument as far as measured by logic and reason.

First define infiniteness? And how does Jesus being an "infinite sacrifice" give Him the "right" to stand in the way of Justice and suffer for sins He did not commit so that the guilty does not suffer at all and is treated as if they never acted in a way that demanded Justice take sway?

...