The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

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Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by Amonhi »

A few days I woke up thinking about this, and wanted to share. If you've read "The Atonement" by Elliaison, then you probably already understand this

Most Christians think that Jesus suffered our punishments for us so we could be forgiven of sins. They think that the innocent can suffer for the guilty and thereby appease or satisfy the demands of justice. As if I could commit a crime and my brother could go to jail for me and justice will have been fulfilled.

The scriptures don't teach this.
Alma 34
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world
The innocent cannot suffer for the guilty to fulfill justice or offer mercy. Jesus taking the role of the wicked who committed sin and suffering like, a whipping boy for the guilty, (as if he were wicked or guilty, when he was not), does not place him in the position to forgive them of their sins.

In any interaction where one person has committed a crime or sin against another person, there is only one person who can forgive the criminal or the sinner without robbing justice. It isn't the judge and it certainly isn't the criminal or sinner. Only the victim of crime or sin has the authority to forgive the criminal or the sinner. Jesus had to take the role of the victim of our sins in order to gain the right to forgive them. He had to suffer, (not the punishment of law we are owed for our sins), but he had to suffer the hurt and pain we inflict on others by our sins. He had to become the victim of our sins to be able to forgive us of them.

This message is taught repeatedly through out the scriptures, but never more clear and certain as by Jesus himself when he said,
Matt. 25
31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
As you do unto others, you have done to him, because he had to experience the effects of our actions to become our Savior. To gain the right to forgive us for our sins, he had to suffer from or as a result of or for our sins.

As long as you are willing to allow others to suffer for your sins, the atonement remains unfulfilled in your life. As long as you are willing to allow anyone else to suffer so that you can get ahead or avoid the problems you have created or are experiencing, the atonement has not been fulfilled in you.

Celestial people must fulfill the atonement to the point that they are no longer willing to allow the innocent to suffer for them. They are no longer willing to assent to the death of Christ.

The word assent means to agree with, condone, support, or accept a thing.
D&C 132
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
Those who have fulfilled the atonement see Christ in everyone and treat everyone as if they were Christ. They even love their enemies and treat the with the same love and respect they have for their friends.

I call all who will receive this message to begin to apply it in their lives so that we can prepare for the millennium and return of the Savior or Prince of Peace.

In the name of my friend, Jesus Christ, Amen.

onefour1
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1309

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by onefour1 »

I think the atonement was also to bring about a just cause for God the Father to allow forgiveness of sin. Jesus was a sinless being who suffered to the extent that no other man could suffer. I think the infinite nature of his being allowed him to bear the suffering for our sins. Being the direct offspring of God our Eternal Father in Heaven and also being a sinless being gave him the power to be able to take upon himself such immense suffering that covered the entire human race. No one else that is mortal could have taken upon them such suffering as Jesus did. But I think one of the key elements of the atonement is that Jesus was sinless and never deserved any of the suffering and pain he went through. Not only was the suffering and pain a complete injustice to him but it also brings up the question of what is Jesus' recompense for this extreme injustice? God the Father would, in my estimation, of a necessity need to recompense the Christ for the complete and utter injustice that was brought upon his innocent, sinless son. What was the recompense that Jesus received for this greatest of all injustices? Was it not that he could bring about their immortality and resurrect all who have died and been separated from their bodies? Was it not that based upon the principle of repentance, that he could have mercy on those who change their behavior from doing evil to that of doing good. Not only, as you have mentioned, is it right for the victim to grant forgiveness but even more so that an innocent victim grant forgiveness through a just recompense. Not only is the recompense to be granted for the suffering of the innocent but also to the extent of the suffering of the innocent. Since Jesus suffered unjustly for all mankind, his Mercy is to be extended unto all mankind if they would simply repent of their sins. In my estimation, not only is the atonement a great act of mercy and love but also a just act to recompense the innocent victim for what he has suffered.
Last edited by onefour1 on May 29th, 2022, 6:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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nightlight
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6965

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by nightlight »

Amonhi wrote: May 29th, 2022, 12:14 pm A few days I woke up thinking about this, and wanted to share. If you've read "The Atonement" by Elliaison, then you probably already understand this

Most Christians think that Jesus suffered our punishments for us so we could be forgiven of sins. They think that the innocent can suffer for the guilty and thereby appease or satisfy the demands of justice. As if I could commit a crime and my brother could go to jail for me and justice will have been fulfilled.

The scriptures don't teach this.
Alma 34
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world
The innocent cannot suffer for the guilty to fulfill justice or offer mercy. Jesus taking the role of the wicked who committed sin and suffering like, a whipping boy for the guilty, (as if he were wicked or guilty, when he was not), does not place him in the position to forgive them of their sins.

In any interaction where one person has committed a crime or sin against another person, there is only one person who can forgive the criminal or the sinner without robbing justice. It isn't the judge and it certainly isn't the criminal or sinner. Only the victim of crime or sin has the authority to forgive the criminal or the sinner. Jesus had to take the role of the victim of our sins in order to gain the right to forgive them. He had to suffer, (not the punishment of law we are owed for our sins), but he had to suffer the hurt and pain we inflict on others by our sins. He had to become the victim of our sins to be able to forgive us of them.

This message is taught repeatedly through out the scriptures, but never more clear and certain as by Jesus himself when he said,
Matt. 25
31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
As you do unto others, you have done to him, because he had to experience the effects of our actions to become our Savior. To gain the right to forgive us for our sins, he had to suffer from or as a result of or for our sins.

As long as you are willing to allow others to suffer for your sins, the atonement remains unfulfilled in your life. As long as you are willing to allow anyone else to suffer so that you can get ahead or avoid the problems you have created or are experiencing, the atonement has not been fulfilled in you.

Celestial people must fulfill the atonement to the point that they are no longer willing to allow the innocent to suffer for them. They are no longer willing to assent to the death of Christ.

The word assent means to agree with, condone, support, or accept a thing.
D&C 132
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
Those who have fulfilled the atonement see Christ in everyone and treat everyone as if they were Christ. They even love their enemies and treat the with the same love and respect they have for their friends.

I call all who will receive this message to begin to apply it in their lives so that we can prepare for the millennium and return of the Savior or Prince of Peace.

In the name of my friend, Jesus Christ, Amen.
From the scripture you quoted...

"therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world"

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JLHPROF
captain of 100
Posts: 682

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by JLHPROF »

Amonhi wrote: May 29th, 2022, 12:14 pm A few days I woke up thinking about this, and wanted to share. If you've read "The Atonement" by Elliaison, then you probably already understand this

Most Christians think that Jesus suffered our punishments for us so we could be forgiven of sins. They think that the innocent can suffer for the guilty and thereby appease or satisfy the demands of justice. As if I could commit a crime and my brother could go to jail for me and justice will have been fulfilled.

The scriptures don't teach this.
Alma 34
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world
The innocent cannot suffer for the guilty to fulfill justice or offer mercy. Jesus taking the role of the wicked who committed sin and suffering like, a whipping boy for the guilty, (as if he were wicked or guilty, when he was not), does not place him in the position to forgive them of their sins.

In any interaction where one person has committed a crime or sin against another person, there is only one person who can forgive the criminal or the sinner without robbing justice. It isn't the judge and it certainly isn't the criminal or sinner. Only the victim of crime or sin has the authority to forgive the criminal or the sinner. Jesus had to take the role of the victim of our sins in order to gain the right to forgive them. He had to suffer, (not the punishment of law we are owed for our sins), but he had to suffer the hurt and pain we inflict on others by our sins. He had to become the victim of our sins to be able to forgive us of them.

This message is taught repeatedly through out the scriptures, but never more clear and certain as by Jesus himself when he said,
Matt. 25
31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
As you do unto others, you have done to him, because he had to experience the effects of our actions to become our Savior. To gain the right to forgive us for our sins, he had to suffer from or as a result of or for our sins.

As long as you are willing to allow others to suffer for your sins, the atonement remains unfulfilled in your life. As long as you are willing to allow anyone else to suffer so that you can get ahead or avoid the problems you have created or are experiencing, the atonement has not been fulfilled in you.

Celestial people must fulfill the atonement to the point that they are no longer willing to allow the innocent to suffer for them. They are no longer willing to assent to the death of Christ.

The word assent means to agree with, condone, support, or accept a thing.
D&C 132
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
Those who have fulfilled the atonement see Christ in everyone and treat everyone as if they were Christ. They even love their enemies and treat the with the same love and respect they have for their friends.

I call all who will receive this message to begin to apply it in their lives so that we can prepare for the millennium and return of the Savior or Prince of Peace.

In the name of my friend, Jesus Christ, Amen.
Some interesting thoughts here.

D&C 19 indicates he absolutely suffered for the sinners. So does Mosiah 16. He paid out debts.

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darknesstolight
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3498

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by darknesstolight »

Amonhi wrote: May 29th, 2022, 12:14 pm A few days I woke up thinking about this, and wanted to share. If you've read "The Atonement" by Elliaison, then you probably already understand this

Most Christians think that Jesus suffered our punishments for us so we could be forgiven of sins. They think that the innocent can suffer for the guilty and thereby appease or satisfy the demands of justice. As if I could commit a crime and my brother could go to jail for me and justice will have been fulfilled.

The scriptures don't teach this.
Alma 34
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world
The innocent cannot suffer for the guilty to fulfill justice or offer mercy. Jesus taking the role of the wicked who committed sin and suffering like, a whipping boy for the guilty, (as if he were wicked or guilty, when he was not), does not place him in the position to forgive them of their sins.

In any interaction where one person has committed a crime or sin against another person, there is only one person who can forgive the criminal or the sinner without robbing justice. It isn't the judge and it certainly isn't the criminal or sinner. Only the victim of crime or sin has the authority to forgive the criminal or the sinner. Jesus had to take the role of the victim of our sins in order to gain the right to forgive them. He had to suffer, (not the punishment of law we are owed for our sins), but he had to suffer the hurt and pain we inflict on others by our sins. He had to become the victim of our sins to be able to forgive us of them.

This message is taught repeatedly through out the scriptures, but never more clear and certain as by Jesus himself when he said,
Matt. 25
31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
As you do unto others, you have done to him, because he had to experience the effects of our actions to become our Savior. To gain the right to forgive us for our sins, he had to suffer from or as a result of or for our sins.

As long as you are willing to allow others to suffer for your sins, the atonement remains unfulfilled in your life. As long as you are willing to allow anyone else to suffer so that you can get ahead or avoid the problems you have created or are experiencing, the atonement has not been fulfilled in you.

Celestial people must fulfill the atonement to the point that they are no longer willing to allow the innocent to suffer for them. They are no longer willing to assent to the death of Christ.

The word assent means to agree with, condone, support, or accept a thing.
D&C 132
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
Those who have fulfilled the atonement see Christ in everyone and treat everyone as if they were Christ. They even love their enemies and treat the with the same love and respect they have for their friends.

I call all who will receive this message to begin to apply it in their lives so that we can prepare for the millennium and return of the Savior or Prince of Peace.

In the name of my friend, Jesus Christ, Amen.
True. It's the only thing that can be true.

God had to become like us, so that we could become like him.

Jesus forgot His divine nature so that He could navigate the pathways required for those who don't remember who they are so they will know how to traverse The Way.

Jesus did not pay the consequences for other people's mistakes. He has experienced everyone's mistakes and understands them perfectly but He didn't suffer for YOUR mistakes and screw ups. YOU are going to have to experience those screw ups like Jesus. But because Jesus was able to forget His divine nature and still live a perfect life, He opened up the pathways that others can now use to get to our destination from where we are. But we have to now walk those pathways Jesus opened up for us. We can't just sit back and let Jesus walk the path for us.

...

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darknesstolight
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3498

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by darknesstolight »

JLHPROF wrote: May 29th, 2022, 3:11 pm
Amonhi wrote: May 29th, 2022, 12:14 pm A few days I woke up thinking about this, and wanted to share. If you've read "The Atonement" by Elliaison, then you probably already understand this

Most Christians think that Jesus suffered our punishments for us so we could be forgiven of sins. They think that the innocent can suffer for the guilty and thereby appease or satisfy the demands of justice. As if I could commit a crime and my brother could go to jail for me and justice will have been fulfilled.

The scriptures don't teach this.
Alma 34
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world
The innocent cannot suffer for the guilty to fulfill justice or offer mercy. Jesus taking the role of the wicked who committed sin and suffering like, a whipping boy for the guilty, (as if he were wicked or guilty, when he was not), does not place him in the position to forgive them of their sins.

In any interaction where one person has committed a crime or sin against another person, there is only one person who can forgive the criminal or the sinner without robbing justice. It isn't the judge and it certainly isn't the criminal or sinner. Only the victim of crime or sin has the authority to forgive the criminal or the sinner. Jesus had to take the role of the victim of our sins in order to gain the right to forgive them. He had to suffer, (not the punishment of law we are owed for our sins), but he had to suffer the hurt and pain we inflict on others by our sins. He had to become the victim of our sins to be able to forgive us of them.

This message is taught repeatedly through out the scriptures, but never more clear and certain as by Jesus himself when he said,
Matt. 25
31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
As you do unto others, you have done to him, because he had to experience the effects of our actions to become our Savior. To gain the right to forgive us for our sins, he had to suffer from or as a result of or for our sins.

As long as you are willing to allow others to suffer for your sins, the atonement remains unfulfilled in your life. As long as you are willing to allow anyone else to suffer so that you can get ahead or avoid the problems you have created or are experiencing, the atonement has not been fulfilled in you.

Celestial people must fulfill the atonement to the point that they are no longer willing to allow the innocent to suffer for them. They are no longer willing to assent to the death of Christ.

The word assent means to agree with, condone, support, or accept a thing.
D&C 132
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
Those who have fulfilled the atonement see Christ in everyone and treat everyone as if they were Christ. They even love their enemies and treat the with the same love and respect they have for their friends.

I call all who will receive this message to begin to apply it in their lives so that we can prepare for the millennium and return of the Savior or Prince of Peace.

In the name of my friend, Jesus Christ, Amen.
Some interesting thoughts here.

D&C 19 indicates he absolutely suffered for the sinners. So does Mosiah 16. He paid out debts.
All who remember their divine nature will have to suffer for sinners. You have to do the things Jesus did.

...

User avatar
darknesstolight
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3498

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by darknesstolight »

Jesus is not our scapegoat. We can't toss all our trash on Him and merrily move on.

How gross can you be?

...

John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3154

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by John Tavner »

nightlight wrote: May 29th, 2022, 2:07 pm
Amonhi wrote: May 29th, 2022, 12:14 pm A few days I woke up thinking about this, and wanted to share. If you've read "The Atonement" by Elliaison, then you probably already understand this

Most Christians think that Jesus suffered our punishments for us so we could be forgiven of sins. They think that the innocent can suffer for the guilty and thereby appease or satisfy the demands of justice. As if I could commit a crime and my brother could go to jail for me and justice will have been fulfilled.

The scriptures don't teach this.
Alma 34
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world
The innocent cannot suffer for the guilty to fulfill justice or offer mercy. Jesus taking the role of the wicked who committed sin and suffering like, a whipping boy for the guilty, (as if he were wicked or guilty, when he was not), does not place him in the position to forgive them of their sins.

In any interaction where one person has committed a crime or sin against another person, there is only one person who can forgive the criminal or the sinner without robbing justice. It isn't the judge and it certainly isn't the criminal or sinner. Only the victim of crime or sin has the authority to forgive the criminal or the sinner. Jesus had to take the role of the victim of our sins in order to gain the right to forgive them. He had to suffer, (not the punishment of law we are owed for our sins), but he had to suffer the hurt and pain we inflict on others by our sins. He had to become the victim of our sins to be able to forgive us of them.

This message is taught repeatedly through out the scriptures, but never more clear and certain as by Jesus himself when he said,
Matt. 25
31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
As you do unto others, you have done to him, because he had to experience the effects of our actions to become our Savior. To gain the right to forgive us for our sins, he had to suffer from or as a result of or for our sins.

As long as you are willing to allow others to suffer for your sins, the atonement remains unfulfilled in your life. As long as you are willing to allow anyone else to suffer so that you can get ahead or avoid the problems you have created or are experiencing, the atonement has not been fulfilled in you.

Celestial people must fulfill the atonement to the point that they are no longer willing to allow the innocent to suffer for them. They are no longer willing to assent to the death of Christ.

The word assent means to agree with, condone, support, or accept a thing.
D&C 132
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
Those who have fulfilled the atonement see Christ in everyone and treat everyone as if they were Christ. They even love their enemies and treat the with the same love and respect they have for their friends.

I call all who will receive this message to begin to apply it in their lives so that we can prepare for the millennium and return of the Savior or Prince of Peace.

In the name of my friend, Jesus Christ, Amen.
From the scripture you quoted...

"therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world"
And to explain a bit more about that and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Ephesians 1:6 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

and Romans 3: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. 26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus. 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.

Romans 5: 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! 10For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! 11Not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation....13For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come. 15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many!16Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! 18So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20 The law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:1What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2Certainly not!

User avatar
darknesstolight
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3498

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by darknesstolight »

John Tavner wrote: May 29th, 2022, 5:46 pm
nightlight wrote: May 29th, 2022, 2:07 pm
Amonhi wrote: May 29th, 2022, 12:14 pm A few days I woke up thinking about this, and wanted to share. If you've read "The Atonement" by Elliaison, then you probably already understand this

Most Christians think that Jesus suffered our punishments for us so we could be forgiven of sins. They think that the innocent can suffer for the guilty and thereby appease or satisfy the demands of justice. As if I could commit a crime and my brother could go to jail for me and justice will have been fulfilled.

The scriptures don't teach this.
Alma 34
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world
The innocent cannot suffer for the guilty to fulfill justice or offer mercy. Jesus taking the role of the wicked who committed sin and suffering like, a whipping boy for the guilty, (as if he were wicked or guilty, when he was not), does not place him in the position to forgive them of their sins.

In any interaction where one person has committed a crime or sin against another person, there is only one person who can forgive the criminal or the sinner without robbing justice. It isn't the judge and it certainly isn't the criminal or sinner. Only the victim of crime or sin has the authority to forgive the criminal or the sinner. Jesus had to take the role of the victim of our sins in order to gain the right to forgive them. He had to suffer, (not the punishment of law we are owed for our sins), but he had to suffer the hurt and pain we inflict on others by our sins. He had to become the victim of our sins to be able to forgive us of them.

This message is taught repeatedly through out the scriptures, but never more clear and certain as by Jesus himself when he said,
Matt. 25
31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
As you do unto others, you have done to him, because he had to experience the effects of our actions to become our Savior. To gain the right to forgive us for our sins, he had to suffer from or as a result of or for our sins.

As long as you are willing to allow others to suffer for your sins, the atonement remains unfulfilled in your life. As long as you are willing to allow anyone else to suffer so that you can get ahead or avoid the problems you have created or are experiencing, the atonement has not been fulfilled in you.

Celestial people must fulfill the atonement to the point that they are no longer willing to allow the innocent to suffer for them. They are no longer willing to assent to the death of Christ.

The word assent means to agree with, condone, support, or accept a thing.
D&C 132
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
Those who have fulfilled the atonement see Christ in everyone and treat everyone as if they were Christ. They even love their enemies and treat the with the same love and respect they have for their friends.

I call all who will receive this message to begin to apply it in their lives so that we can prepare for the millennium and return of the Savior or Prince of Peace.

In the name of my friend, Jesus Christ, Amen.
From the scripture you quoted...

"therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world"
And to explain a bit more about that and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Ephesians 1:6 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

and Romans 3: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. 26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus. 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.

Romans 5: 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! 10For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! 11Not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation....13For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come. 15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many!16Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! 18So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20 The law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:1What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2Certainly not!
Doesn't matter if it's infinite or finite, no sentient being is capable of suffering or experiencing your life and your decision on your behalf. You sin, you suffer the consequences. You don't get to have your private infinite, immortal, whipping boy you get to beat each time you feel guilt and shame.

It's impossible to stop a being from experiencing the natural consequences of their choices. The truth has been hidden from the very beginning. You are a Son of God just like Jesus.

Pick up your cross and carry it.

...

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9413
Location: England

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by Luke »

JLHPROF wrote: May 29th, 2022, 3:11 pm
Amonhi wrote: May 29th, 2022, 12:14 pm A few days I woke up thinking about this, and wanted to share. If you've read "The Atonement" by Elliaison, then you probably already understand this

Most Christians think that Jesus suffered our punishments for us so we could be forgiven of sins. They think that the innocent can suffer for the guilty and thereby appease or satisfy the demands of justice. As if I could commit a crime and my brother could go to jail for me and justice will have been fulfilled.

The scriptures don't teach this.
Alma 34
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world
The innocent cannot suffer for the guilty to fulfill justice or offer mercy. Jesus taking the role of the wicked who committed sin and suffering like, a whipping boy for the guilty, (as if he were wicked or guilty, when he was not), does not place him in the position to forgive them of their sins.

In any interaction where one person has committed a crime or sin against another person, there is only one person who can forgive the criminal or the sinner without robbing justice. It isn't the judge and it certainly isn't the criminal or sinner. Only the victim of crime or sin has the authority to forgive the criminal or the sinner. Jesus had to take the role of the victim of our sins in order to gain the right to forgive them. He had to suffer, (not the punishment of law we are owed for our sins), but he had to suffer the hurt and pain we inflict on others by our sins. He had to become the victim of our sins to be able to forgive us of them.

This message is taught repeatedly through out the scriptures, but never more clear and certain as by Jesus himself when he said,
Matt. 25
31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
As you do unto others, you have done to him, because he had to experience the effects of our actions to become our Savior. To gain the right to forgive us for our sins, he had to suffer from or as a result of or for our sins.

As long as you are willing to allow others to suffer for your sins, the atonement remains unfulfilled in your life. As long as you are willing to allow anyone else to suffer so that you can get ahead or avoid the problems you have created or are experiencing, the atonement has not been fulfilled in you.

Celestial people must fulfill the atonement to the point that they are no longer willing to allow the innocent to suffer for them. They are no longer willing to assent to the death of Christ.

The word assent means to agree with, condone, support, or accept a thing.
D&C 132
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
Those who have fulfilled the atonement see Christ in everyone and treat everyone as if they were Christ. They even love their enemies and treat the with the same love and respect they have for their friends.

I call all who will receive this message to begin to apply it in their lives so that we can prepare for the millennium and return of the Savior or Prince of Peace.

In the name of my friend, Jesus Christ, Amen.
Some interesting thoughts here.

D&C 19 indicates he absolutely suffered for the sinners. So does Mosiah 16. He paid out debts.
Obviously He suffered, but in what way?

I don't think He literally "took our sins upon Him" in the sense that He is now the one to blame for sin, but that He suffered as a result of our sin, and hence as the "victim" of said sin, He has the right to forgive.

John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3154

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by John Tavner »

darknesstolight wrote: May 29th, 2022, 6:57 pm
John Tavner wrote: May 29th, 2022, 5:46 pm
nightlight wrote: May 29th, 2022, 2:07 pm
Amonhi wrote: May 29th, 2022, 12:14 pm A few days I woke up thinking about this, and wanted to share. If you've read "The Atonement" by Elliaison, then you probably already understand this

Most Christians think that Jesus suffered our punishments for us so we could be forgiven of sins. They think that the innocent can suffer for the guilty and thereby appease or satisfy the demands of justice. As if I could commit a crime and my brother could go to jail for me and justice will have been fulfilled.

The scriptures don't teach this.



The innocent cannot suffer for the guilty to fulfill justice or offer mercy. Jesus taking the role of the wicked who committed sin and suffering like, a whipping boy for the guilty, (as if he were wicked or guilty, when he was not), does not place him in the position to forgive them of their sins.

In any interaction where one person has committed a crime or sin against another person, there is only one person who can forgive the criminal or the sinner without robbing justice. It isn't the judge and it certainly isn't the criminal or sinner. Only the victim of crime or sin has the authority to forgive the criminal or the sinner. Jesus had to take the role of the victim of our sins in order to gain the right to forgive them. He had to suffer, (not the punishment of law we are owed for our sins), but he had to suffer the hurt and pain we inflict on others by our sins. He had to become the victim of our sins to be able to forgive us of them.

This message is taught repeatedly through out the scriptures, but never more clear and certain as by Jesus himself when he said,

As you do unto others, you have done to him, because he had to experience the effects of our actions to become our Savior. To gain the right to forgive us for our sins, he had to suffer from or as a result of or for our sins.

As long as you are willing to allow others to suffer for your sins, the atonement remains unfulfilled in your life. As long as you are willing to allow anyone else to suffer so that you can get ahead or avoid the problems you have created or are experiencing, the atonement has not been fulfilled in you.

Celestial people must fulfill the atonement to the point that they are no longer willing to allow the innocent to suffer for them. They are no longer willing to assent to the death of Christ.

The word assent means to agree with, condone, support, or accept a thing.



Those who have fulfilled the atonement see Christ in everyone and treat everyone as if they were Christ. They even love their enemies and treat the with the same love and respect they have for their friends.

I call all who will receive this message to begin to apply it in their lives so that we can prepare for the millennium and return of the Savior or Prince of Peace.

In the name of my friend, Jesus Christ, Amen.
From the scripture you quoted...

"therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world"
And to explain a bit more about that and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Ephesians 1:6 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

and Romans 3: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. 26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus. 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.

Romans 5: 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! 10For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! 11Not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation....13For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come. 15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many!16Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! 18So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20 The law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:1What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2Certainly not!
Doesn't matter if it's infinite or finite, no sentient being is capable of suffering or experiencing your life and your decision on your behalf. You sin, you suffer the consequences. You don't get to have your private infinite, immortal, whipping boy you get to beat each time you feel guilt and shame.

It's impossible to stop a being from experiencing the natural consequences of their choices. The truth has been hidden from the very beginning. You are a Son of God just like Jesus.

Pick up your cross and carry it.

...
Except scripture says otherwise I may suffer, but I may also be healed from the consequences of sin - the consequences may occur and sometimes they may be removed. It is the power of Christ to redeem, which means to restore back to original value - this can occur at any point sometimes at repentance, sometimes with faith. As teh scripture says 9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!... "we now rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ through whom we have now received reconciliation."

Gal 4: 4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

So I'm confused by your statements. Do you believe that I don't believe I'm a Son of God? Do you believe I'm not carrying my cross?

onefour1
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1309

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by onefour1 »

It is important that we understand that we have all fallen short of the glory of God and in and of ourselves we are unable to obtain the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Luke 17:10
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Mosiah 2:21
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

In and of ourselves it does not matter how much of a cross we carry if it is without the atoning sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We could do all the good works our whole souls could muster but if it is without the sacrifice Jesus has made, we are unprofitable servants. It is only in and through his atoning sacrifice that we are saved. True, Jesus may require of us to repent and do good works, but the works we do do not save us. They are simply the duty we have before God will grant us salvation through his infinite love and mercy. Jesus won the right through his infinite atonement to grant salvation into the kingdom of Heaven to those who make the effort to repent and become good beings. In my opinion that was his recompense. This we should always retain in our hearts, that without Jesus we are not worthy of salvation into his glorious kingdom.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by Amonhi »

I went to church today for a missionary homecoming. As the sacrament was beening passed, I could see the symbols so clearly.

The following is a picture of the sacrament table as I saw it today, except with only two priests removing the cloth veil.
Image

The body and blood of Christ rests on a white cloth which covers the table. Another white cloth covers the sacrament, just as has been done to deceased bodies for thousands of years. In my mind, I imagined the body of Jesus laying under the sacrament cloth waiting to be broken and the blood which was shed from that body waiting to be drunk.

As the priests lifted up the cloth to break the bread. The image of them pulling pieces of flesh from the body of Jesus laying underneath the cloth filled my mind. The blessing was said and the emblems of the body of Jesus were passed.

Then they again pulled back the cloth to access the blood of Jesus to feed to those willing to drink it. Water is an acceptable substitute to the red wine that was once used to deepen the symbol.

So much meaning in the symbols. Abraham lifted the knife with the intent to kill his own son, symbolic of how far each of us will go to save ourselves. Likewise, the Children of Israel killed their most loved animals hoping that by doing so they would be saved. How they missed the symbolism....is beyond me. Which of us could raise the knife to kill Christ or even to kill the symbol of Christ? Would you be willing to shed Christ's blood to save yourself? Would you be willing to re-enact the murder of Christ using an innocent animal or your own child to play the role of Christ while you killed it in hopes of saving yourself?

How far would you go to save your souls?
Mark 8
34 ¶ And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his soul shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his soul for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
So many people try to save their souls by allowing Christ to suffer and die for them. The innocent for the guilty. An evil person would allow an innocent person to be falsely convicted and punished for their crimes, in order to save themselves. In their attempt to save themselves, they lose their souls and condemn themselves further by sealing their eternal fate. Unless we can confess our sins and take responsibility for them and suffer death and hell, we are not able to abide the law of the Celestial Kingdom. The good news is that after death and hell, all who are just and true will be resurrected and raised to eternal glory in the Celestial Kingdom.
D&C 132
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, (death) and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan (hell), unto the day of redemption (resurrection), saith the Lord God.
We need to learn to take up our own cross and follow him.
Luke 9
23 ¶ And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his soul shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his soul for my sake, the same shall save it.
When the Savior taught this to my wife and I in person, he said, "take up your own cross and follow me."

What is your own cross?

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by Amonhi »

onefour1 wrote: May 29th, 2022, 1:09 pm I think the atonement was also to bring about a just cause for God the Father to allow forgiveness of sin. Jesus was a sinless being who suffered to the extent that no other man could suffer. I think the infinite nature of his being allowed him to bear the suffering for our sins. Being the direct offspring of God our Eternal Father in Heaven and also being a sinless being gave him the power to be able to take upon himself such immense suffering that covered the entire human race. No one else that is mortal could have taken upon them such suffering as Jesus did. But I think one of the key elements of the atonement is that Jesus was sinless and never deserved any of the suffering and pain he went through. Not only was the suffering and pain a complete injustice to him but it also brings up the question of what is Jesus' recompense for this extreme injustice? God the Father would, in my estimation, of a necessity need to recompense the Christ for the complete and utter injustice that was brought upon his innocent, sinless son. What was the recompense that Jesus received for this greatest of all injustices? Was it not that he could bring about their immortality and resurrect all who have died and been separated from their bodies? Was it not that based upon the principle of repentance, that he could have mercy on those who change their behavior from doing evil to that of doing good. Not only, as you have mentioned, is it right for the victim to grant forgiveness but even more so that an innocent victim grant forgiveness through a just recompense. Not only is the recompense to be granted for the suffering of the innocent but also to the extent of the suffering of the innocent. Since Jesus suffered unjustly for all mankind, his Mercy is to be extended unto all mankind if they would simply repent of their sins. In my estimation, not only is the atonement a great act of mercy and love but also a just act to recompense the innocent victim for what he has suffered.
The concept of Jesus gaining a "recompense" for suffering more than anyone willing to suffer is not founded in principles taught in the scriptures or sound logic.

He he chose to suffer, then he doesn't deserve recompense any more than if I were to place my hand in a fire and burn myself to gain a recompense. I can't place myself in jail and then show that since I was innocent and unjustly punished I have a right to trade my unjust suffering for the just punishment of a true criminal. And say I suffered w years in jail unjustly, so for recompense I want this truly guilty person who has a 1 year jail sentence to serve no time.

No court would or should uphold such a tactic because to doesn't follow correct principles and leaves the demand for justice unsatisfied.

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by Amonhi »

nightlight wrote: May 29th, 2022, 2:07 pm
Amonhi wrote: May 29th, 2022, 12:14 pm A few days I woke up thinking about this, and wanted to share. If you've read "The Atonement" by Elliaison, then you probably already understand this

Most Christians think that Jesus suffered our punishments for us so we could be forgiven of sins. They think that the innocent can suffer for the guilty and thereby appease or satisfy the demands of justice. As if I could commit a crime and my brother could go to jail for me and justice will have been fulfilled.

The scriptures don't teach this.
Alma 34
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world
The innocent cannot suffer for the guilty to fulfill justice or offer mercy. Jesus taking the role of the wicked who committed sin and suffering like, a whipping boy for the guilty, (as if he were wicked or guilty, when he was not), does not place him in the position to forgive them of their sins.

In any interaction where one person has committed a crime or sin against another person, there is only one person who can forgive the criminal or the sinner without robbing justice. It isn't the judge and it certainly isn't the criminal or sinner. Only the victim of crime or sin has the authority to forgive the criminal or the sinner. Jesus had to take the role of the victim of our sins in order to gain the right to forgive them. He had to suffer, (not the punishment of law we are owed for our sins), but he had to suffer the hurt and pain we inflict on others by our sins. He had to become the victim of our sins to be able to forgive us of them.

This message is taught repeatedly through out the scriptures, but never more clear and certain as by Jesus himself when he said,
Matt. 25
31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
As you do unto others, you have done to him, because he had to experience the effects of our actions to become our Savior. To gain the right to forgive us for our sins, he had to suffer from or as a result of or for our sins.

As long as you are willing to allow others to suffer for your sins, the atonement remains unfulfilled in your life. As long as you are willing to allow anyone else to suffer so that you can get ahead or avoid the problems you have created or are experiencing, the atonement has not been fulfilled in you.

Celestial people must fulfill the atonement to the point that they are no longer willing to allow the innocent to suffer for them. They are no longer willing to assent to the death of Christ.

The word assent means to agree with, condone, support, or accept a thing.
D&C 132
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
Those who have fulfilled the atonement see Christ in everyone and treat everyone as if they were Christ. They even love their enemies and treat the with the same love and respect they have for their friends.

I call all who will receive this message to begin to apply it in their lives so that we can prepare for the millennium and return of the Savior or Prince of Peace.

In the name of my friend, Jesus Christ, Amen.
From the scripture you quoted...

"therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world"
Yes. But still, that infinite and eternal atonement cannot break eternal law and principles of truth.

It doesn't matter if you try to atone for someone using his brother or an animal or even a God, justice must be satisfied against the guilty and not the innocent. The principle is eternal and the atonement must also be eternally aligned with true principles. There is one one way for the guilt of sins to be moved from one person to another... The person who receives the guilt of sin must be the cause of the sin, (truly guilty), and the person who committed the sin must have repented, (truly innocent). This is the only principle where by sin can be transformed from one person to another without robbing justice.
D&C 68

25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents
Just as... Azazel or Satan has taught all unrighteousness...
And they said to the Lord of the ages: ‘Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, … Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn:

Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, “… the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.” – The Book of Enoch, Chapters 9-10
Definition – “ascribe”

Refer to a supposed cause, source, or author : to say or think that (something) is caused by, comes from, or is associated with a particular person or thing. Accredit, attribute or impute.

Peace,
Amonhi

User avatar
nightlight
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6965

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by nightlight »

Amonhi wrote: May 29th, 2022, 10:34 pm
nightlight wrote: May 29th, 2022, 2:07 pm
Amonhi wrote: May 29th, 2022, 12:14 pm A few days I woke up thinking about this, and wanted to share. If you've read "The Atonement" by Elliaison, then you probably already understand this

Most Christians think that Jesus suffered our punishments for us so we could be forgiven of sins. They think that the innocent can suffer for the guilty and thereby appease or satisfy the demands of justice. As if I could commit a crime and my brother could go to jail for me and justice will have been fulfilled.

The scriptures don't teach this.
Alma 34
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world
The innocent cannot suffer for the guilty to fulfill justice or offer mercy. Jesus taking the role of the wicked who committed sin and suffering like, a whipping boy for the guilty, (as if he were wicked or guilty, when he was not), does not place him in the position to forgive them of their sins.

In any interaction where one person has committed a crime or sin against another person, there is only one person who can forgive the criminal or the sinner without robbing justice. It isn't the judge and it certainly isn't the criminal or sinner. Only the victim of crime or sin has the authority to forgive the criminal or the sinner. Jesus had to take the role of the victim of our sins in order to gain the right to forgive them. He had to suffer, (not the punishment of law we are owed for our sins), but he had to suffer the hurt and pain we inflict on others by our sins. He had to become the victim of our sins to be able to forgive us of them.

This message is taught repeatedly through out the scriptures, but never more clear and certain as by Jesus himself when he said,
Matt. 25
31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
As you do unto others, you have done to him, because he had to experience the effects of our actions to become our Savior. To gain the right to forgive us for our sins, he had to suffer from or as a result of or for our sins.

As long as you are willing to allow others to suffer for your sins, the atonement remains unfulfilled in your life. As long as you are willing to allow anyone else to suffer so that you can get ahead or avoid the problems you have created or are experiencing, the atonement has not been fulfilled in you.

Celestial people must fulfill the atonement to the point that they are no longer willing to allow the innocent to suffer for them. They are no longer willing to assent to the death of Christ.

The word assent means to agree with, condone, support, or accept a thing.
D&C 132
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
Those who have fulfilled the atonement see Christ in everyone and treat everyone as if they were Christ. They even love their enemies and treat the with the same love and respect they have for their friends.

I call all who will receive this message to begin to apply it in their lives so that we can prepare for the millennium and return of the Savior or Prince of Peace.

In the name of my friend, Jesus Christ, Amen.
From the scripture you quoted...

"therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world"
Yes. But still, that infinite and eternal atonement cannot break eternal law and principles of truth.

It doesn't matter if you try to atone for someone using his brother or an animal or even a God, justice must be satisfied against the guilty and not the innocent. The principle is eternal and the atonement must also be eternally aligned with true principles. There is one one way for the guilt of sins to be moved from one person to another... The person who receives the guilt of sin must be the cause of the sin, (truly guilty), and the person who committed the sin must have repented, (truly innocent). This is the only principle where by sin can be transformed from one person to another without robbing justice.
D&C 68

25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents
Just as... Azazel or Satan has taught all unrighteousness...
And they said to the Lord of the ages: ‘Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, … Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn:

Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, “… the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.” – The Book of Enoch, Chapters 9-10
Definition – “ascribe”

Refer to a supposed cause, source, or author : to say or think that (something) is caused by, comes from, or is associated with a particular person or thing. Accredit, attribute or impute.

Peace,
Amonhi
Are you capable of repentance without Jesus ?

If yes , how?

If no, why?

onefour1
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1309

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by onefour1 »

Amonhi wrote: May 29th, 2022, 10:20 pm
onefour1 wrote: May 29th, 2022, 1:09 pm I think the atonement was also to bring about a just cause for God the Father to allow forgiveness of sin. Jesus was a sinless being who suffered to the extent that no other man could suffer. I think the infinite nature of his being allowed him to bear the suffering for our sins. Being the direct offspring of God our Eternal Father in Heaven and also being a sinless being gave him the power to be able to take upon himself such immense suffering that covered the entire human race. No one else that is mortal could have taken upon them such suffering as Jesus did. But I think one of the key elements of the atonement is that Jesus was sinless and never deserved any of the suffering and pain he went through. Not only was the suffering and pain a complete injustice to him but it also brings up the question of what is Jesus' recompense for this extreme injustice? God the Father would, in my estimation, of a necessity need to recompense the Christ for the complete and utter injustice that was brought upon his innocent, sinless son. What was the recompense that Jesus received for this greatest of all injustices? Was it not that he could bring about their immortality and resurrect all who have died and been separated from their bodies? Was it not that based upon the principle of repentance, that he could have mercy on those who change their behavior from doing evil to that of doing good. Not only, as you have mentioned, is it right for the victim to grant forgiveness but even more so that an innocent victim grant forgiveness through a just recompense. Not only is the recompense to be granted for the suffering of the innocent but also to the extent of the suffering of the innocent. Since Jesus suffered unjustly for all mankind, his Mercy is to be extended unto all mankind if they would simply repent of their sins. In my estimation, not only is the atonement a great act of mercy and love but also a just act to recompense the innocent victim for what he has suffered.
The concept of Jesus gaining a "recompense" for suffering more than anyone willing to suffer is not founded in principles taught in the scriptures or sound logic.

He he chose to suffer, then he doesn't deserve recompense any more than if I were to place my hand in a fire and burn myself to gain a recompense. I can't place myself in jail and then show that since I was innocent and unjustly punished I have a right to trade my unjust suffering for the just punishment of a true criminal. And say I suffered w years in jail unjustly, so for recompense I want this truly guilty person who has a 1 year jail sentence to serve no time.


No court would or should uphold such a tactic because to doesn't follow correct principles and leaves the demand for justice unsatisfied.

Peace,
Amonhi
So it is your opinion that because of his choice to be a Savior that he brought upon himself all the suffering that he endured? In other words, it was his fault? So who in your mind brought the punishment upon Jesus? Do you think it was God the Father who punished Jesus? Did Jesus punish himself? Or just maybe it was the devil and his minions who caused the suffering in the garden. Sure it was allowed by the Father and Jesus himself. But that does not mean that it was a just punishment to a completely innocent and sinless being. Perhaps this was the will of the Father so that he could grant unto the lamb without blemish a just recompense. Is God to blame for all the sins of the world because he didn't intervene and stop the free will of all of us? No, we are to blame for our own sins even though God has the power to intervene but chooses not to. So too, Christ is not the cause of his punishments and neither He nor God the Father are to blame for them. The outcome of Jesus' suffering, even though He or the Father may have had the power to intervene, does not lead to the conclusion you make that He and His Father are to blame for the injustice that was brought upon him. Surely the beatings and crucifixion was not the fault of Jesus or the Father. It was done by wicked men who saw Jesus as a threat to their established hypocrisies. They were the cause of his suffering on the cross. And I believe Satan and his minions were the cause of Jesus' sufferings in the garden of Gethsemane. Sure it was allowed by the Father and Son to bring about the cause of righteousness but they only took advantage of the evil that existed to bring about a righteous and Holy cause. They were not the ones who held the whip while Jesus was being beaten. They were not the ones who drove the nails through his hands and feet and lifted him up upon the cross. And I believe that they were not the ones who brought the suffering upon Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. I believe the Devil and his minions were responsible for that. Jesus only did that which was good and right upon the earth. He was without sin. He deserved no punishment in the least. Only through the knowledge that wicked beings exist and were ready to unleash all manner of suffering upon him did he place himself in the fire. But it was for the most noble and righteous cause of all. He certainly did not deserve it. He was the most innocent being to ever live upon the face of this earth. I can't say that no court on this earth would find him innocent, but I know that the court in heaven has already found him innocent of all charges and that he has won the right as a recompense for his suffering to grant forgiveness to all those who repent and forsake their sins and come unto the lamb without blemish.

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nightlight
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Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by nightlight »

Amonhi wrote: May 29th, 2022, 9:46 pm I went to church today for a missionary homecoming. As the sacrament was beening passed, I could see the symbols so clearly.

The following is a picture of the sacrament table as I saw it today, except with only two priests removing the cloth veil.
Image

The body and blood of Christ rests on a white cloth which covers the table. Another white cloth covers the sacrament, just as has been done to deceased bodies for thousands of years. In my mind, I imagined the body of Jesus laying under the sacrament cloth waiting to be broken and the blood which was shed from that body waiting to be drunk.

As the priests lifted up the cloth to break the bread. The image of them pulling pieces of flesh from the body of Jesus laying underneath the cloth filled my mind. The blessing was said and the emblems of the body of Jesus were passed.

Then they again pulled back the cloth to access the blood of Jesus to feed to those willing to drink it. Water is an acceptable substitute to the red wine that was once used to deepen the symbol.

So much meaning in the symbols. Abraham lifted the knife with the intent to kill his own son, symbolic of how far each of us will go to save ourselves. Likewise, the Children of Israel killed their most loved animals hoping that by doing so they would be saved. How they missed the symbolism....is beyond me. Which of us could raise the knife to kill Christ or even to kill the symbol of Christ? Would you be willing to shed Christ's blood to save yourself? Would you be willing to re-enact the murder of Christ using an innocent animal or your own child to play the role of Christ while you killed it in hopes of saving yourself?

How far would you go to save your souls?
Mark 8
34 ¶ And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his soul shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his soul for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
So many people try to save their souls by allowing Christ to suffer and die for them. The innocent for the guilty. An evil person would allow an innocent person to be falsely convicted and punished for their crimes, in order to save themselves. In their attempt to save themselves, they lose their souls and condemn themselves further by sealing their eternal fate. Unless we can confess our sins and take responsibility for them and suffer death and hell, we are not able to abide the law of the Celestial Kingdom. The good news is that after death and hell, all who are just and true will be resurrected and raised to eternal glory in the Celestial Kingdom.
D&C 132
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, (death) and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan (hell), unto the day of redemption (resurrection), saith the Lord God.
We need to learn to take up our own cross and follow him.
Luke 9
23 ¶ And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his soul shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his soul for my sake, the same shall save it.
When the Savior taught this to my wife and I in person, he said, "take up your own cross and follow me."

What is your own cross?

Peace,
Amonhi
🤔

So Jesus taught the nephites to do wrong when he taught them the sacrament?

Juliet
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Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by Juliet »

Not only so He can forgive us, but so He can redeem us. If we try to drag someone in the mud who is connected to heaven, not only will that not work, but we might get swept up to heaven too. Provided we don't mind getting a shower on the way.

It may seem like a free out for us...but not so fast. If we love Him, we will be like Him. Now who has the last laugh? That means, when people try to drag us through the mud...we in turn need to be a disciple of Jesus and help give them their bath and connect them to heaven. It's a win win. But a lot of work, and it's somewhat dangerous too. Because if your foundation of faith in Christ isn't firm, then when the winds blow and the rain rains, one may get knocked off their footing.

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darknesstolight
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Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by darknesstolight »

John Tavner wrote: May 29th, 2022, 7:57 pm
darknesstolight wrote: May 29th, 2022, 6:57 pm
John Tavner wrote: May 29th, 2022, 5:46 pm
nightlight wrote: May 29th, 2022, 2:07 pm

From the scripture you quoted...

"therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world"
And to explain a bit more about that and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Ephesians 1:6 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

and Romans 3: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. 26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus. 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.

Romans 5: 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! 10For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! 11Not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation....13For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come. 15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many!16Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! 18So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20 The law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:1What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2Certainly not!
Doesn't matter if it's infinite or finite, no sentient being is capable of suffering or experiencing your life and your decision on your behalf. You sin, you suffer the consequences. You don't get to have your private infinite, immortal, whipping boy you get to beat each time you feel guilt and shame.

It's impossible to stop a being from experiencing the natural consequences of their choices. The truth has been hidden from the very beginning. You are a Son of God just like Jesus.

Pick up your cross and carry it.

...
Except scripture says otherwise I may suffer, but I may also be healed from the consequences of sin - the consequences may occur and sometimes they may be removed. It is the power of Christ to redeem, which means to restore back to original value - this can occur at any point sometimes at repentance, sometimes with faith. As teh scripture says 9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!... "we now rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ through whom we have now received reconciliation."

Gal 4: 4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

So I'm confused by your statements. Do you believe that I don't believe I'm a Son of God? Do you believe I'm not carrying my cross?
The scriptures don't say that. You do.

If you steal something you're going to suffer the consequences. If you get caught you'll go to jail. You'll suffer. Jesus isn't gonna do Jack for you. He can't. And then when you repent Jesus doesn't "pay your price" you did. You repented.

You don't have access to a personal immortal whipping boy you get to hurt when you screw up.

...

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darknesstolight
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Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by darknesstolight »

The corrupt Church in 300AD or so decided its gonna hide this plain truth.

WE ARE GODS.

They pedestalized Jesus and forced all to bow SO they, the corrupt leaders, could have power.

If we are all Gods then nobody is above another and all are equal.

...

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TheDuke
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Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by TheDuke »

I suppose if you don't truly understand the concept of sin, not just in this life (which leads to correction) but in the next life, then understanding the atonement is beyond reach. Jesus bridged mercy and justice. I see only a discussion of justice.

While it is true, all must overcome their sins, the form of punishment is not precisely described. Example, one may be held in prison, or one may have their sentence commuted to providing service. In both justice is served, but in the later mercy is obtained.

Know this the atonement is the method of healing, making imperfect become perfect, there is no other way. And to Amonhi's initial question, YES one person can pay the price of another's transgressions. In the end the person must overcome but accepting the tokens from another keeps them from being held back in the mean-time. I KNOW this to be true.

I find the elliaison teachings in general to lack humility, comprehension of eternal progression, and mercy and the love of god, having seen an angel of light doesn't change eternal truths. I have no more to say on this as the spirit has constrained me to point it out and stay away. Any follow up comments will be ignored (sorry hate to be the one to cut and run, but the spirit is strong on this point).

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darknesstolight
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Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by darknesstolight »

TheDuke wrote: May 30th, 2022, 11:11 am I suppose if you don't truly understand the concept of sin, not just in this life (which leads to correction) but in the next life, then understanding the atonement is beyond reach. Jesus bridged mercy and justice. I see only a discussion of justice.

While it is true, all must overcome their sins, the form of punishment is not precisely described. Example, one may be held in prison, or one may have their sentence commuted to providing service. In both justice is served, but in the later mercy is obtained.

Know this the atonement is the method of healing, making imperfect become perfect, there is no other way. And to Amonhi's initial question, YES one person can pay the price of another's transgressions. In the end the person must overcome but accepting the tokens from another keeps them from being held back in the mean-time. I KNOW this to be true.

I find the elliaison teachings in general to lack humility, comprehension of eternal progression, and mercy and the love of god, having seen an angel of light doesn't change eternal truths. I have no more to say on this as the spirit has constrained me to point it out and stay away. Any follow up comments will be ignored (sorry hate to be the one to cut and run, but the spirit is strong on this point).
It's not Elliaison teaching. It's the Good News! You are a God!

Elliaison, they didn't come up with this. Jesus came to Earth and taught this but men are weak. And some men lack faith and want to control others.

But we are joint heirs with Christ and equal. You just have remember and. believe.

TheDuke by your own admission the Spirit doesn't hang with you physically. You seem believe in some emanating energy or influence. That's what most people experience because they lack faith. It's your lack of faith and your lack of desire to have a broken heart and a contrite spirit that keeps you from realizing this great gift in your life.

...

John Tavner
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Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by John Tavner »

darknesstolight wrote: May 30th, 2022, 8:52 am
John Tavner wrote: May 29th, 2022, 7:57 pm
darknesstolight wrote: May 29th, 2022, 6:57 pm
John Tavner wrote: May 29th, 2022, 5:46 pm
And to explain a bit more about that and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Ephesians 1:6 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

and Romans 3: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. 26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus. 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.

Romans 5: 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! 10For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! 11Not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation....13For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come. 15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many!16Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! 18So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20 The law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:1What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2Certainly not!
Doesn't matter if it's infinite or finite, no sentient being is capable of suffering or experiencing your life and your decision on your behalf. You sin, you suffer the consequences. You don't get to have your private infinite, immortal, whipping boy you get to beat each time you feel guilt and shame.

It's impossible to stop a being from experiencing the natural consequences of their choices. The truth has been hidden from the very beginning. You are a Son of God just like Jesus.

Pick up your cross and carry it.

...
Except scripture says otherwise I may suffer, but I may also be healed from the consequences of sin - the consequences may occur and sometimes they may be removed. It is the power of Christ to redeem, which means to restore back to original value - this can occur at any point sometimes at repentance, sometimes with faith. As teh scripture says 9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!... "we now rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ through whom we have now received reconciliation."

Gal 4: 4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

So I'm confused by your statements. Do you believe that I don't believe I'm a Son of God? Do you believe I'm not carrying my cross?
The scriptures don't say that. You do.

If you steal something you're going to suffer the consequences. If you get caught you'll go to jail. You'll suffer. Jesus isn't gonna do Jack for you. He can't. And then when you repent Jesus doesn't "pay your price" you did. You repented.

You don't have access to a personal immortal whipping boy you get to hurt when you screw up.

...
You never answered my questions. Also, We've Gone through this before. I thank God for what He did and accept what He did. And as it states Isaiah 53: 4 4Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted. 5But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.

Alma 7: 12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities. 13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me. 14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

You might think I treat Him like a whipping boy, but that is your own projection or interpretation which seems pretty twisted. I treat Him as my Savior because He offers me salvation and freedom, because He has saved me and is saving me. My experience says so and it is my testimony as well, because it has happened to me. Romans 9: 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy."

Feel free to have the last word and make whatever other accusations you feel. Adieu.

Amonhi
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Posts: 4650

Re: The Atonement must be Fulfilled in Us

Post by Amonhi »

JLHPROF wrote: May 29th, 2022, 3:11 pm
Amonhi wrote: May 29th, 2022, 12:14 pm A few days I woke up thinking about this, and wanted to share. If you've read "The Atonement" by Elliaison, then you probably already understand this

Most Christians think that Jesus suffered our punishments for us so we could be forgiven of sins. They think that the innocent can suffer for the guilty and thereby appease or satisfy the demands of justice. As if I could commit a crime and my brother could go to jail for me and justice will have been fulfilled.

The scriptures don't teach this.
Alma 34
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world
The innocent cannot suffer for the guilty to fulfill justice or offer mercy. Jesus taking the role of the wicked who committed sin and suffering like, a whipping boy for the guilty, (as if he were wicked or guilty, when he was not), does not place him in the position to forgive them of their sins.

In any interaction where one person has committed a crime or sin against another person, there is only one person who can forgive the criminal or the sinner without robbing justice. It isn't the judge and it certainly isn't the criminal or sinner. Only the victim of crime or sin has the authority to forgive the criminal or the sinner. Jesus had to take the role of the victim of our sins in order to gain the right to forgive them. He had to suffer, (not the punishment of law we are owed for our sins), but he had to suffer the hurt and pain we inflict on others by our sins. He had to become the victim of our sins to be able to forgive us of them.

This message is taught repeatedly through out the scriptures, but never more clear and certain as by Jesus himself when he said,
Matt. 25
31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
As you do unto others, you have done to him, because he had to experience the effects of our actions to become our Savior. To gain the right to forgive us for our sins, he had to suffer from or as a result of or for our sins.

As long as you are willing to allow others to suffer for your sins, the atonement remains unfulfilled in your life. As long as you are willing to allow anyone else to suffer so that you can get ahead or avoid the problems you have created or are experiencing, the atonement has not been fulfilled in you.

Celestial people must fulfill the atonement to the point that they are no longer willing to allow the innocent to suffer for them. They are no longer willing to assent to the death of Christ.

The word assent means to agree with, condone, support, or accept a thing.
D&C 132
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
Those who have fulfilled the atonement see Christ in everyone and treat everyone as if they were Christ. They even love their enemies and treat the with the same love and respect they have for their friends.

I call all who will receive this message to begin to apply it in their lives so that we can prepare for the millennium and return of the Savior or Prince of Peace.

In the name of my friend, Jesus Christ, Amen.
Some interesting thoughts here.

D&C 19 indicates he absolutely suffered for the sinners. So does Mosiah 16. He paid out debts.
D&C 19 references a number of other concepts that are explained in other scriptures. It will take me a little time to pull all the references together.

Reading Mosiah 16, we are told what the wicked will suffer or experience. Does this sound like what Jesus suffered or experienced?
Mosiah 16
10 Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to stand before the bar of God, to be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be evil—
11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation.

Peace,
Amonhi

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