WHEN PROPHETS AREN'T PROPHETS - FAILED PROPHECIES OF MORMON PROPHETS

[Being There]

I was once praying earnestly upon this subject, and a voice said unto me, "My son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years of age, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man." I was left to draw my own conclusions concerning this; and I took the liberty to conclude that if I did live to that time, He would make His appearance. But I do not say whether He will make His appearance or I shall go where He is. I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written -- the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old. Then read the 14th chapter of Revelation, 6th and 7th verses -- "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give glory to Him, for the our of His judgment is come." And Hosea, 6th chapter,
After two days, etc., -- 2,520 years; which brings it to 1890.
Joseph Smith, TPJS 286, 6 April 1843

President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending while journeying to Zion—our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh—even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." (DHC 2:182, 14 February 1835)


Failed prophecies:
a. Inhabitants on the Moon Prophecy
i. Oliver B. Huntington, a devout LDS contemporary of Joseph Smith, stated that Smith
taught,"The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants
of the earth, being six feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker style and
are quite general in style or fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally;
near a thousand years. This is the description of them as given by Joseph (Smith)
the Seer, and he could see whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see"
(Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, Vol. II, p. 166).
ii. In over 60 years of close observation of the moon and its surface, no inhabitants found.

b. Inhabitants of the Sun
i. Brigham Young, second LDS Prophet, said, "Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this
little planet that shines on an evening, called the Moon?... When you inquire about the
inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to
them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the
Sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life
there? No question about it; it was not made in vain"
(Journal of Discourses Vol. XIII, p. 271).
ii. This is a Prophet speaking here. His word is supposedly the word of the LDS god and
The Prophet is as infallible as the LDS god (c.f. Roman Catholic Pope) see below:
• Brigham Young, "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children
of men, that they may not call Scripture" (Ibid., p. 95).
• This "Scripture" about men on the moon as well as the Sun by Brigham Young
ought to raise eyebrows about Brigham Young's inspired messages.

c. Second Coming Predictions
i. Wilford Woodruff, fourth LDS Prophet said on June 27, 1875, "I believe there are many
children now living in the mountains of Israel (Utah) who will never taste death, that is,
they will dwell on the earth at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ"
(J. of D., Vol.18, p. 37).
ii. On June 6, 1880, Woodruff again said, "We live in the generation itself when Jesus
Christ will come in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"
(J. of D., Vol. 21, p. 124).
iii. Woodruff died on Sept. 2, 1898, and all the children he spoke of in 1875 are now dead.
Therefore, Woodruff's predictions are false.
iv. Compare this "prophecy" with the clear teaching given in 1Thessalonians 5:1-3
concerning the truth that no date will ever be given concerning the Second Coming
because of the obvious fact that Jesus will come like a thief in the night.
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I was once praying earnestly upon this subject, and a voice said unto me, "My son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years of age, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man." I was left to draw my own conclusions concerning this; and I took the liberty to conclude that if I did live to that time, He would make His appearance. But I do not say whether He will make His appearance or I shall go where He is. I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written -- the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old. Then read the 14th chapter of Revelation, 6th and 7th verses -- "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give glory to Him, for the our of His judgment is come." And Hosea, 6th chapter,
After two days, etc., -- 2,520 years; which brings it to 1890.
Joseph Smith, TPJS 286, 6 April 1843

President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending while journeying to Zion—our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh—even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." (DHC 2:182, 14 February 1835)

[Being There]

Joseph Smith bore many titles in his lifetime, Elder, Seer, President, Mayor, even Lieutenant General, but he is probably best known as the Prophet. And prophesy he did, often with great passion, invoking the powers of heaven and the name of God. What follows are seven prophecies of Joseph Smith, notable for their specificity and appeal to divine authority. These are taken from official Mormon sources - either the Latter-day Saint scriptures or the History of the Church (HC), a seven volume history published under the authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon). Each are given in context and cited directly from the original source. Where they are known, subsequent historical events relevant to the prophecy are noted.


"And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." -
Deuteronomy 18:21-22

Prophecy # 1 - The Coming of the Lord

President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. . . . it was the will of God that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh - even fifty six years should wind up the scene. (History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182).

This prophecy was spoken by Joseph Smith in 1835, and recorded by Oliver Cowdery. The fifty-six years were passed by 1891.

Prophecy # 2 - David W. Patten to go on a mission

Verily, thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto the world. (Doctrine & Covenants 114:1)

This prophecy was made on April 17, 1838. David W. Patten died in October of 1838 and thus never went on a mission the following spring.

Prophecy # 3 - The United States Government to be overthrown in a few years

I prophecy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished (History of the Church, Vol. 5, page 394).

Joseph Smith made this prophecy in May 6, 1843. However, the United States Government did not redress any of the wrongs committed against the Mormons in Missouri, and now over 150 years later, the U.S. Government still stands.

Prophecy # 4 - Congress to be broken up as a government

While discussing the petition to Congress, I prophesied, by virtue of the holy Priesthood vested in me, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that, if Congress will not hear our petition and grant us protection, they shall be broken up as a government, and God shall damn them, and there shall be nothing left of them - not even a grease spot. (Millennial Star, Vol. 22, p. 455. See also History of the Church (HC), vol. 6, p. 116, though when this prediction was incorporated into the official history, Mormon Church leaders decided to leave out the "grease spot" part.)

The petition was not heard nor was protection granted (Deseret News, Vol. 1, p. 59). Yet, Congress was never broken up and continues to function to this day. It is interesting that the compilers of History of the Church, added an editorial note in an attempt to soften or explain this prophecy. They state that: "This prediction doubtless has reference to the party in power; to the ‘government’ considered as the administration;" (note, p. 116). According to the note in HC, this means the Democratic Party, which was in control at the time. However, the prediction is that "Congress shall be broken up as a government" and Congress is made up of representatives from both parties. The Saints were making an appeal to the General Government, not to the Democratic Party, a point made by a summary statement in the left margin beside this prophecy as it is recorded in HC.

Prophecy #5 -Finding Treasure in Salem, Massachusetts

This prophecy is recorded in Doctrine & Covenants Section 111. The introduction to this prophecy, found at the beginning of Section 111 states:

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Salem, Massachusetts, August 6, 1836. HC 2:465-466. At this time the leaders of the [LDS] Church were heavily in debt due to their labors in the ministry.

1. I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies.

2. I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality.

3. Therefore, it is expedient that you should form acquaintance with men in this city, as you shall be led, and as it shall be given you.

4. And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.

5. Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them.

No treasure was ever discovered, nor did Salem ever fell into the hands of the Mormons.

Prophecy #6 - Pestilence, Hail, Famine & Earthquake to Destroy the Wicked

And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country. The people of the Lord, those who have complied with the requirements of the new covenant, have already commenced gathering together to Zion, which is in the state of Missouri; therefore I declare unto you the warning which the Lord has commanded to declare unto this generation, remembering that the eyes of my Maker are upon me, and that to him I am accountable for every word I say, wishing nothing worse to my fellow-men than their eternal salvation; therefore, "Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come." Repent ye, repent ye, and embrace the everlasting covenant and flee to Zion, before the overflowing scourge overtake you, for there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled (History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 315-316).

Such a widespread destruction of the wicked of that generation never occurred.

Prophecy # 7 - Temple to be Built in Zion, Missouri

This prophecy comes directly from Doctrine & Covenants Section 84, the introduction of which states:

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, September 22 and 23, 1832. HC 1:286-295.

1. A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.

2. Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.

3. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

4. Verily, this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.

5. For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

The Mormons were forced to flee Missouri due to persecution and a temple was never built on the "temple lot" in the lifetime of Joseph Smith or within the generation of his contemporaries.

[Being There]

Can We Trust the Prophecies of Joseph Smith?

https://coldcasechristianity.com/writin ... eph-smith/


7. False Prophecies by Joseph
http://20truths.info/mormon/prophecies.html

[LDS Watchman]

So you believe Joseph Smith was a false prophet, yet believe in the Book of Mormon he brought forth?

[Being There]

Joseph Smith, was a man - like any other man; and was deceived by satan.

BEWARE THE MORMON ENDOWMENT
viewtopic.php?p=1265922#p1265922

He failed to establish Zion - as the Lord commanded,
and was a failed prophet, who prophesied false prophecies - proof shown in this thread.

[Being There]

Joseph Smith boasted that he did more than Jesus to keep a church together.

https://carm.org/mormonism/joseph-smith ... -together/

History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409

Address of the Prophet–His Testimony Against the Dissenters at Nauvoo.
Joseph Smith boasted he did more than Jesus to keep a church together.

President Joseph Smith read the 11th Chap. II Corinthians. My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down; but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them.

God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had.
I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days

page 409

of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. For the last three years I have a record of all my acts and proceedings, for I have kept several good, faithful, and efficient clerks in constant employ: they have accompanied me everywhere, and carefully kept my history, and they have written down what I have done, where I have been, and what I have said; therefore my enemies cannot charge me with any day, time, or place, but what I have written testimony to prove my actions; and my enemies cannot prove anything against me.

[Being There]

Joseph Smith documented liar
https://ldsfacts.org/joseph-smith/josep ... nted-liar/


LDS Church History documents that their mormon founder, Joseph Smith, lied to a large group of people about his having multiple wives.

In History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 408-412 it records an “Address of the Prophet” on Sunday, May 26, 1844 where Joseph Smith states:

“What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives,
when I can only find one.”

Evidence suggests he was married to at least 25 women at the time of that statement. It’s also interesting to note that he seems to recognized to the crowd that it would be adultery if he had multiple wives. It’s documented that Emma did not have knowledge of all of Joseph Smith’s wives.

Though the LDS church did not acknowledge Joseph Smith’s polygamy for a long time, the have now recognized on their own site, that he was engaged in polygamy in 1841, which is 3 years prior to his denying it and constantly being engaged in it.

Not only did Joseph Smith marry him self to single women, but he also married him self to women who already had living husbands! Of the over 30 wives that Joseph Smith had, 11 of them were already married to other men! I think that’s usually called adultery.

Joseph Smith even married women as young as 14, to which at least one of the girls was promised that “If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.” This could be quite some coercion for a 14 year old girl.

Joseph Smith Convicted in Court

Joseph Smith was also brought to court and called “glass looker”, or in other words, trying to mislead other people into thinking he could see buried treasure in peep stone. Joseph and his father were well known for scrying, divination by looking into a seer stone. Joseph Smith also had multiple other run ins with the law, a conviction for illegal banking, and for destroying a printing press which was exposing his polygamy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smi ... ice_system

So what does the bible have to say about these kind of things? In 1 Timothy 3:2 it tells us that a church leader “must be blameless, the husband of one wife…” And other places in the bible there are some related comments about those purporting to be prophets:

Jeremiah 23:14 “But in the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen a horrible thing: they commit adultery and walk in lies;”

Jeremiah 23:26 “How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;”

Deuteronomy 18:20 “But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.”

1841 – Joseph Smith begins polygamy in secret.

1842 – Joseph Smith reveals new temple ceremonies (which are a copy of Freemasonry) and uses the Freemason’s principles of secrecy as an excuse to marry him self to multiple women and keep them secret.

1843 – Joseph Smith records a “revelation” of plural marriage to LDS Church, and with it comes the permission from “God” that if his current wife doesn’t agree to it, he can hide it from her (D&C 132:55).

1844 – Joseph Smith dies.

Is it a coincidence that Joseph Smith died not long after lying in public about his polygamy, and coming up with revelations that basically allow him to what would otherwise be considered as adultery? Possibly so. But the quoted scripture Deuteronomy does seem to indicate that a prophet who speaks presumptuously for God will die, so this could be an easy indicator of a false prophet.

Other LDS church leaders have admitted to conveniently hiding the truth, and even in current events a Mormon “prophet” was allegedly caught lying about misappropriating funds from the LDS church members tithing for a shopping mall.

All these facts can be verified via the inline links above. For more information, see our section on LDS Church History, and a quick timeline of LDS events.

[GeeR]

Joseph Smith said: "I would rather be a fallen true prophet than a false prophet."(TPJS p.365) He admits to being "a fallen true prophet" in his first commission because the saints could not live the law of consecration nor the ordinance of monogamy as required in The Law (D&C 42) Joseph Fielding Smith said: " It is the L.D. Saints who transgressed the law and changed the ordinance and broke the everlasting covenant," when referring to Isa. 24:5. (Deseret News, Church Section Oct. 17, 1936) So yes the restoration was a failure because of wickedness but the Prophet and church history tells us that Joseph Smith has a second commission coming up soon and that what we consider his false prophesies in his first commission are merely his unfilled prophesies that will be fulfilled in his second commission. His other failings can be explained in their true context as disclosed in the book entitled "Solving the Prophet Puzzle" a 2 inch tome that can be bought on Amazon for $19.00. Also check out the "Secret History of Mormonism" on You-Tube. So there are answers to this quandary, so have faith.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Joseph Smith said: "I would rather be a fallen true prophet than a false prophet."(TPJS p.365) He admits to being "a fallen true prophet" in his first commission because the saints could not live the law of consecration nor the ordinance of monogamy as required in The Law (D&C 42) Joseph Fielding Smith said: " It is the L.D. Saints who transgressed the law and changed the ordinance and broke the everlasting covenant," when referring to Isa. 24:5. (Deseret News, Church Section Oct. 17, 1936) So yes the restoration was a failure because of wickedness but the Prophet and church history tells us that Joseph Smith has a second commission coming up soon and that what we consider his false prophesies in his first commission are merely his unfilled prophesies that will be fulfilled in his second commission. His other failings can be explained in their true context as disclosed in the book entitled "Solving the Prophet Puzzle" a 2 inch tome that can be bought on Amazon for $19.00. Also check out the "Secret History of Mormonism" on You-Tube. So there are answers to this quandary, so have faith.

Really? Couldn't be monogamous?

[GeeR]

Joseph Smith said: "I would rather be a fallen true prophet than a false prophet."(TPJS p.365) He admits to being "a fallen true prophet" in his first commission because the saints could not live the law of consecration nor the ordinance of monogamy as required in The Law (D&C 42) Joseph Fielding Smith said: " It is the L.D. Saints who transgressed the law and changed the ordinance and broke the everlasting covenant," when referring to Isa. 24:5. (Deseret News, Church Section Oct. 17, 1936) So yes the restoration was a failure because of wickedness but the Prophet and church history tells us that Joseph Smith has a second commission coming up soon and that what we consider his false prophesies in his first commission are merely his unfilled prophesies that will be fulfilled in his second commission. His other failings can be explained in their true context as disclosed in the book entitled "Solving the Prophet Puzzle" a 2 inch tome that can be bought on Amazon for $19.00. Also check out the "Secret History of Mormonism" on You-Tube. So there are answers to this quandary, so have faith.

Really? Couldn't be monogamous?

D&C 42:22 and D&C 49: 15-16 sound clearly monogamous to me!

[Reluctant Watchman]

Joseph Smith said: "I would rather be a fallen true prophet than a false prophet."(TPJS p.365) He admits to being "a fallen true prophet" in his first commission because the saints could not live the law of consecration nor the ordinance of monogamy as required in The Law (D&C 42) Joseph Fielding Smith said: " It is the L.D. Saints who transgressed the law and changed the ordinance and broke the everlasting covenant," when referring to Isa. 24:5. (Deseret News, Church Section Oct. 17, 1936) So yes the restoration was a failure because of wickedness but the Prophet and church history tells us that Joseph Smith has a second commission coming up soon and that what we consider his false prophesies in his first commission are merely his unfilled prophesies that will be fulfilled in his second commission. His other failings can be explained in their true context as disclosed in the book entitled "Solving the Prophet Puzzle" a 2 inch tome that can be bought on Amazon for $19.00. Also check out the "Secret History of Mormonism" on You-Tube. So there are answers to this quandary, so have faith.

Really? Couldn't be monogamous?

D&C 42:22 and D&C 49: 15-16 sound clearly monogamous to me!

My point for quoting you was that he was monogamous. If you believe he was a polygamist, you've believed a lie.

[GeeR]

Joseph Smith said: "I would rather be a fallen true prophet than a false prophet."(TPJS p.365) He admits to being "a fallen true prophet" in his first commission because the saints could not live the law of consecration nor the ordinance of monogamy as required in The Law (D&C 42) Joseph Fielding Smith said: " It is the L.D. Saints who transgressed the law and changed the ordinance and broke the everlasting covenant," when referring to Isa. 24:5. (Deseret News, Church Section Oct. 17, 1936) So yes the restoration was a failure because of wickedness but the Prophet and church history tells us that Joseph Smith has a second commission coming up soon and that what we consider his false prophesies in his first commission are merely his unfilled prophesies that will be fulfilled in his second commission. His other failings can be explained in their true context as disclosed in the book entitled "Solving the Prophet Puzzle" a 2 inch tome that can be bought on Amazon for $19.00. Also check out the "Secret History of Mormonism" on You-Tube. So there are answers to this quandary, so have faith.

Really? Couldn't be monogamous?

D&C 42:22 and D&C 49: 15-16 sound clearly monogamous to me!

My point for quoting you was that he was monogamous. If you believe he was a polygamist, you've believed a lie.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you. He did a Mitten Romney flip-flop, in that he did do polygamy later. He had to be a scape-goat where the sins of ancient Israel was put on the animal and pushed into the animal by the High Priest, a process known as "semicha" in Jewish theology. Joseph was required to take upon himself the sins of modern Israel as a intercessory scape-goat and carry out a proxy atonement, the same "atonement" Moses said he would carry out for ancient Israel. Joseph Smith couldn't carry out all that Old Testament scape-goat stuff without taking on the sins of the saints i.e. polygamy. It's explained better in the book--"Solving the Prophet Puzzle".

[Reluctant Watchman]

Really? Couldn't be monogamous?

D&C 42:22 and D&C 49: 15-16 sound clearly monogamous to me!

My point for quoting you was that he was monogamous. If you believe he was a polygamist, you've believed a lie.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you. He did a Mitten Romney flip-flop, in that he did do polygamy later. He had to be a scape-goat where the sins of ancient Israel was put on the animal and pushed into the animal by the High Priest, a process known as "semicha" in Jewish theology. Joseph was required to take upon himself the sins of modern Israel as a intercessory scape-goat and carry out a proxy atonement, the same "atonement" Moses said he would carry out for ancient Israel. Joseph Smith couldn't carry out all that Old Testament scape-goat stuff without taking on the sins of the saints i.e. polygamy. It's explained better in the book--"Solving the Prophet Puzzle".

Ok, we disagree on that one. Joseph was a better man than that. The LDS justification for polygamy is flimsy at best. It all hinges on the one "revelation" that Emma supposedly burned. BTW, it did not exist. Joseph never wrote it.

[GeeR]

D&C 42:22 and D&C 49: 15-16 sound clearly monogamous to me!

My point for quoting you was that he was monogamous. If you believe he was a polygamist, you've believed a lie.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you. He did a Mitten Romney flip-flop, in that he did do polygamy later. He had to be a scape-goat where the sins of ancient Israel was put on the animal and pushed into the animal by the High Priest, a process known as "semicha" in Jewish theology. Joseph was required to take upon himself the sins of modern Israel as a intercessory scape-goat and carry out a proxy atonement, the same "atonement" Moses said he would carry out for ancient Israel. Joseph Smith couldn't carry out all that Old Testament scape-goat stuff without taking on the sins of the saints i.e. polygamy. It's explained better in the book--"Solving the Prophet Puzzle".

Ok, we disagree on that one. Joseph was a better man than that. The LDS justification for polygamy is flimsy at best. It all hinges on the one "revelation" that Emma supposedly burned. BTW, it did not exist. Joseph never wrote it.

After I examined the scape-goat doctrine more thoroughly in "Solving the Prophet Puzzle" I had a change of heart and mind, that's when I understood what the Lord was saying when He stated: "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isa. 55: 8-9)

[Reluctant Watchman]

After I examined the scape-goat doctrine more thoroughly in "Solving the Prophet Puzzle" I had a change of heart and mind, that's when I understood what the Lord was saying when He stated: "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isa. 55: 8-9)

The problem with that line of thinking is the Lord wasn't vague about these things. It wasn't a mystery. He was extremely clear about how felt and how he viewed polygamy.

[GeeR]

After I examined the scape-goat doctrine more thoroughly in "Solving the Prophet Puzzle" I had a change of heart and mind, that's when I understood what the Lord was saying when He stated: "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isa. 55: 8-9)

The problem with that line of thinking is the Lord wasn't vague about these things. It wasn't a mystery. He was extremely clear about how felt and how he viewed polygamy.

I agree with you, he was using the sin of polygamy (what I call adultery on steroids) to further his divine purposes, much like he allows Satan to help carry out the plan of salvation.

[Reluctant Watchman]

After I examined the scape-goat doctrine more thoroughly in "Solving the Prophet Puzzle" I had a change of heart and mind, that's when I understood what the Lord was saying when He stated: "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isa. 55: 8-9)

The problem with that line of thinking is the Lord wasn't vague about these things. It wasn't a mystery. He was extremely clear about how felt and how he viewed polygamy.

I agree with you, he was using the sin of polygamy (what I call adultery on steroids) to further his divine purposes, much like he allows Satan to help carry out the plan of salvation.

I don't care to carry on the conversation, we've beaten the idea to death on this forum. I don't believe for a second that the Lord was ok for Joseph to commit sin in order to further any divine purpose.

[GeeR]

After I examined the scape-goat doctrine more thoroughly in "Solving the Prophet Puzzle" I had a change of heart and mind, that's when I understood what the Lord was saying when He stated: "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isa. 55: 8-9)

The problem with that line of thinking is the Lord wasn't vague about these things. It wasn't a mystery. He was extremely clear about how felt and how he viewed polygamy.

I agree with you, he was using the sin of polygamy (what I call adultery on steroids) to further his divine purposes, much like he allows Satan to help carry out the plan of salvation.

I don't care to carry on the conversation, we've beaten the idea to death on this forum. I don't believe for a second that the Lord was ok for Joseph to commit sin in order to further any divine purpose.

Okay, no problem here. I admit it is a hard thing to change one's paradigm.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Okay, no problem here. I admit it is a hard thing to change one's paradigm.

You'd be surprised where my paradigms were only a few years ago.

[Being There]

Joseph Smith said: "I would rather be a fallen true prophet than a false prophet."(TPJS p.365) He admits to being "a fallen true prophet" in his first commission because the saints could not live the law of consecration nor the ordinance of monogamy as required in The Law (D&C 42) Joseph Fielding Smith said: " It is the L.D. Saints who transgressed the law and changed the ordinance and broke the everlasting covenant," when referring to Isa. 24:5. (Deseret News, Church Section Oct. 17, 1936) So yes the restoration was a failure because of wickedness but the Prophet and church history tells us that Joseph Smith has a second commission coming up soon and that what we consider his false prophesies in his first commission are merely his unfilled prophesies that will be fulfilled in his second commission. His other failings can be explained in their true context as disclosed in the book entitled "Solving the Prophet Puzzle" a 2 inch tome that can be bought on Amazon for $19.00. Also check out the "Secret History of Mormonism" on You-Tube. So there are answers to this quandary, so have faith.

lol.. right.

another deceived one.
you know, you should really join Phil and his group - all the other deceived ones -
Phil Davis and all his followers,
who claim that Joseph Smith has already returned to the earth. lol.

You know, Phil Davis - the one who -
"is a reincarnated servant from the 1830s who was with Joseph Smith. "
or, from this article -
"According to Davis, an angel visited him in his chocolate shop, followed by a translated being
who authorized him into a new Terrestrial Order of the Church.
However, in recent times, Joseph Smith returned to inaugurate a re-restoration
at the hand of the Davidic Servant, Phil Davis." lol.
viewtopic.php?t=65779&hilit=phil

there certainly is a lot of deception going on these days -
and so many members are part of it.


Hate to tell ya this, but Joseph Smith is a man. a dead man - not a God, (like those think that idolize him)
and he's NOT returning - his mission is over.

I've proved this - that he's NOT the Lord's end- time servant - like Phil's group and so many think.

The Lord's end-time servant - the Davidic servant - is the one who gathers Israel. - and that - is John.
He is the "Root of Jessie"
"unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood,
and the keys of the kingdom"
viewtopic.php?p=1253416&hilit=john+serv ... e#p1253416

viewtopic.php?p=1253277&hilit=john+serv ... l#p1253277

D&C 77:14
14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things.

[Niemand]

So you believe Joseph Smith was a false prophet, yet believe in the Book of Mormon he brought forth?

I don't think s/he does. Although there are plenty of people who think he became a fallen prophet (not without precedent in the scriptures) and a larger number who think the church fell after him or the successor wasn't Brigham Young.

The Book of Mormon is clearly his greatest production. All the rest has been diluted or changed.

[Niemand]

Joseph Smith, was a man - like any other man

I wouldn't say he was "like any other man". The fact millions, including you, are talking about him nearly two hundred years later shows he was not just like "any other man". There are only a handful who fit into this category, and few of them are household names.

I'll probably be largely forgotten a year or two after my death. Certainly by a decade after it.

There were plenty of young men with his background in the area he grew up. Few of them ever came to anything and we talk about almost none of them.

[Being There]

So you believe Joseph Smith was a false prophet, yet believe in the Book of Mormon he brought forth?

I don't think s/he does. Although there are plenty of people who think he became a fallen prophet (not without precedent in the scriptures) and a larger number who think the church fell after him or the successor wasn't Brigham Young.

The Book of Mormon is clearly his greatest production. All the rest has been diluted or changed.

ya Atticus likes to say things that people didn't say. - like he acts like I said that JS was a false prophet
and a fraud - when I NEVER said either one of those things.
The article I posted may have - but I didn't.
I believe JS was a "failed" prophet.

I use to believe that - everything was fine and dandy, and that "all was well" until JS died,
and then everything went down hill.
But in these past years - I've come to learn and see that - it all started with Joseph Smith -
The "gospel was restored, but JS started the corruption - in the church and members,
"and the saints were driven to a salty desert - The Great Salt Lake Desert."
viewtopic.php?p=1212357&hilit=desert+salty#p1212357

[Being There]

Joseph Smith, was a man - like any other man

I wouldn't say he was "like any other man". The fact millions, including you, are talking about him nearly two hundred years later shows he was not just like "any other man". There are only a handful who fit into this category, and few of them are household names.

I'll probably be largely forgotten a year or two after my death. Certainly by a decade after it.

There were plenty of young men with his background in the area he grew up. Few of them ever came to anything and we talk about almost none of them.

sounds to me like you are another one who idolizes JS.

to me- I think it's kinda ridiculous to say that a person is important - and even more important then anyone else,
just because people are still talking about them two hundred years later. lol.

[LDS Watchman]

So you believe Joseph Smith was a false prophet, yet believe in the Book of Mormon he brought forth?

I don't think s/he does. Although there are plenty of people who think he became a fallen prophet (not without precedent in the scriptures) and a larger number who think the church fell after him or the successor wasn't Brigham Young.

The Book of Mormon is clearly his greatest production. All the rest has been diluted or changed.

Did you see his recent post about Joseph Smith being a fraud?

I disagree that the Book of Mormon was Joseph's greatest production. As much as I love the Book of Mormon, to me it is only the beginning of his work. The Book of Mormon wouldn't mean much without the restoration of the priesthood, the reestablished of Christ's church open the earth, the reestablishment of the everlasting covenant with the House of Israel, and the ordinances of the house of the Lord.