Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

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BuriedTartaria
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Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by BuriedTartaria »

I think part of societal decline is contributed to by looser use of swear words and a lack of tact in discussing mature topics (I also think part of societal decline is abandoning the moral goal to strive to save making love for marriage).

So for this thread title, I phrased you-know-what-I'm-talking-about as premarital 'love' to show some propriety.

Back to the topic at hand; is making love before marriage ALWAYS a sin?

This has been on my mind a lot lately. I can't point out any specific verse in the Bible or Book of Mormon that explicitly states the rule of expected conduct is for an individual to remain a virgin until they are married, but maybe this is explicitly stated somewhere in the Bible? There is the whole bridegroom/virgin thing.

What if society broke down and lines and definitions were less clear? What if in a more abstractly defined society, two people verbally committed to being 'married' to one another but there was nobody available to marry them or no structure to give a marriage any sort of weight to it? Would it be a sin for them to make love in a fully committed relationship?


What if someone left a church with a strict moral code (in certain ways) but carried the truth that was in it with him and met a neat girl with a Christian upbringing (who almost feels like an answer to prayer) but she had looser moral convictions from the culture she came from, despite the difference she knew she liked this guy and she wanted to give him a chance but not if it meant premarital love would be considered a sin and absolutely off the table? Should the man acquiesce the woman's desires to satisfy her terms and embrace the love he feels for her? Is that a sin? Would God be disappointed? Would God understand?

Did Adam feel something like this in the Garden? Is the point that you literally can't win and that's the point?

spiritMan
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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by spiritMan »

BuriedTartaria wrote: May 1st, 2022, 3:55 pm I think part of societal decline is contributed to by looser use of swear words and a lack of tact in discussing mature topics (I also think part of societal decline is abandoning the moral goal to strive to save making love for marriage).

So for this thread title, I phrased you-know-what-I'm-talking-about as premarital 'love' to show some propriety.

Back to the topic at hand; is making love before marriage ALWAYS a sin?

This has been on my mind a lot lately. I can't point out any specific verse in the Bible or Book of Mormon that explicitly states the rule of expected conduct is for an individual to remain a virgin until they are married, but maybe this is explicitly stated somewhere in the Bible? There is the whole bridegroom/virgin thing.

What if society broke down and lines and definitions were less clear? What if in a more abstractly defined society, two people verbally committed to being 'married' to one another but there was nobody available to marry them or no structure to give a marriage any sort of weight to it? Would it be a sin for them to make love in a fully committed relationship?


What if someone left a church with a strict moral code (in certain ways) but carried the truth that was in it with him and met a neat girl with a Christian upbringing (who almost feels like an answer to prayer) but she had looser moral convictions from the culture she came from, despite the difference she knew she liked this guy and she wanted to give him a chance but not if it meant premarital love would be considered a sin and absolutely off the table? Should the man acquiesce the woman's desires to satisfy her terms and embrace the love he feels for her? Is that a sin? Would God be disappointed? Would God understand?

Did Adam feel something like this in the Garden? Is the point that you literally can't win and that's the point?
I would say the moment you have sex with someone you are married to them; the only question after that is whether you remain faithful to them or not.

blitzinstripes
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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by blitzinstripes »

So.....I think that in today's world very few churches outside of LDS teach such a rigid form of the law of chastity. My family is split between active LDS, and those raised LDS who have gone inactive and follow a variety of spiritual paths.

LDS often find themselves in challenging situations due to our strict observance of that law. Such as encouraging very young people to wed when they may not be mature enough or otherwise ready for marriage. My wife and I were married in the temple at age 21, within a year after I returned from my mission. We moved up the wedding date twice, at some degree of inconvenience to family and friends because we didn't want to "screw up" before the wedding.

My daughter was married in the temple a few weeks ago. A few weeks before the wedding, his family was dealt some very significant set backs that involved family members in the hospital, family unable to attend on the set date, etc. But we went through with the predetermined date for the same reason. Temptation gets very strong in the period between engagement and marriage. In the end,only one person in the groom's family even attended the reception. We were called selfish for not changing the plans. Non member and inactive family members just didn't see the need to go through with it before they "screwed up".

I'm not looking for anyone's sympathy. I understand the way the world has gone as far as their morals. But I also see that our LDS culture can push young people into marriage before they are ready. We had tabled the idea of doing a JP wedding to "cover" them, and do the sealing later....but even that is frowned upon in the LDS culture.

It seems like the church has adopted the position that all sexual sin is the same. Homosexuality, adultery, fornication, rape, incest, pornography. One size fits all. I'm just not sure. IMO there are differences between a young couple, in love and discussing and preparing for marriage versus promiscuity, adultery, homosexuality, etc.

I wonder how many failed LDS marriages have been the result of people who were just trying to do the right thing and wait for marriage, but they hadn't found the right partner yet or weren't mature enough for marriage. They felt lustful desires and thought, well....better get married then so we don't commit fornication.

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Niemand
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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by Niemand »

I think the problem is that marriage became overcomplicated after the state got involved in it. A century ago, under Scots law, you could be married by repute. I found a couple of my relatives who never had a formal marriage, but did register themselves as married in later censuses... were they married? Well, in once sense they were.

We also used to have a very curious thing called bundling (or something like that). A couple would be wrapped in bed sheets, so they couldn't move out of them, but allowed to sleep with one another emphasis on sleep here, because they would be unable to do much else. This would supposedly give them a chance to find out what it was like to spend the night with each other, because it wasn't all rumpy pumpy.

762X545
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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by 762X545 »

Personally, I think that those of us in the LDS Church are a bit psycho when it comes to the subject of sex. We don't teach our kids enough about it as it's been seen as some sort of taboo subject for too long. Look at the he stupid rumours of what kids do at BYU. Now they are rumours mind you but have you heard of "soaking?" Then there is the new one from BYUI where the couple "soaks," but has someone else jump on the bed so it doesn't officially count as sex. They call it the "Bednar Bounce." You know what. People have sex. Every one in the church and outside has urges and sexual desires. Get over it. I guarantee that every prophet, apostle and GA has masterbated. There is absolutely nothing wrong with sex. What needs to be taught is that there are indeed byproducts of sex. Emotional, spiritual and physical. How about we grow up and learn how to deal with the subject like the adults we are supposed to be. I would argue that after the first time most people have sex they are thinking "that's it? That's what all this fuss was about all these years?" Kind of a downer really. My bishop was the best example of how premarital sex should be handled when it comes to marriage. When my girlfriend (now wife) told him everything we had done prior to wanting to get married he simply said "well, we had better hurry up and get you two married now shouldn't we?" We were adults after all. No stupid talks from President X, Y or Z on the importance of chastity before marriage. No talk of disfellowship etc. Just common sense reality that two people in love will probably end up doing it given enough time together.

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by BuriedTartaria »

blitzinstripes wrote: May 1st, 2022, 4:52 pm So.....I think that in today's world very few churches outside of LDS teach such a rigid form of the law of chastity.

I completely agree! So as I explore life as a Book of Mormon believer outside of the LDS church, I'm met with women who had upbringings outside of the LDS church. They come from different cultures and societies with different expectations and have dated people that generally do not have that belief in a rigid form of a law of chastity like LDS culture/doctrine has. I'm not judging them negatively or harshly. I'm being honest and real.

I refuse to budge on virtue. I also refuse to shame people for being human as well. I just want to do as God would have me do. From my experiences women generally (I'm not saying ALL women) do NOT want to be with a man they feel morally inferior to so unless I budge/change I'm just not going to be able to work for some women I care about and am interested in, especially one in particular >_< but that's life. God will provide a way.

I believe love is out there for all of us single souls!
blitzinstripes wrote: May 1st, 2022, 4:52 pm
I'm not looking for anyone's sympathy. I understand the way the world has gone as far as their morals. But I also see that our LDS culture can push young people into marriage before they are ready. We had tabled the idea of doing a JP wedding to "cover" them, and do the sealing later....but even that is frowned upon in the LDS culture.
I agree that with our upbringing there can be a rush into marriage to prevent sin, and that rush into marriage can be risky.
Niemand wrote: May 1st, 2022, 5:04 pm
We also used to have a very curious thing called bundling (or something like that). A couple would be wrapped in bed sheets, so they couldn't move out of them, but allowed to sleep with one another emphasis on sleep here, because they would be unable to do much else. This would supposedly give them a chance to find out what it was like to spend the night with each other, because it wasn't all rumpy pumpy.
This is fascinating. I'm going to honestly see if someone wants to try this someday, lol

762X545 wrote: May 1st, 2022, 5:55 pm We were adults after all. No stupid talks from President X, Y or Z on the importance of chastity before marriage. No talk of disfellowship etc. Just common sense reality that two people in love will probably end up doing it given enough time together.
I like how your bishop handled this.

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Luke
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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by Luke »

Strange one because it doesn’t seem like there’s any explicit Scriptures on the subject, but when you consider the spirit carried by those who regularly engage in this, it seems like it is a sin. Obviously the word “fornication” appears in Scripture but when you get into the linguistics of it then it isn’t that simple. So who knows. Probably not a good idea to go anywhere near it without any actual clarity on the subject.

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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by Thinker »

I’ve wondered about this & definitely see cultural differences & how the commitment is more important than the blueprint for commitment.

When kids are a possible consequence, we can at least build a good nest foundation - if birds can. My opinion is once kids are involved, no marrying anyone else until kids are grown - is a good general rule.

If you want a healthy, long marriage, statistics suggest it’s best to wait at least 6 months of dating before sex - 2 years is given as an ideal (in a Christian book), but I see that as unrealistic.

As far as the dogma labeling premarital sex as a sin next to murder, that’s ridiculous. However, I can see it as potential serious repercussions when Eg., a child is brought into the world with unprepared parents who screw up the child… who then has a ripple effect down generations. Responsible sex to also avoid getting a debilitating STD.

Compatibility is important sexually, yet if you have premarital sex, then it seems the wedding & honeymoon wouldn’t be so special & again, as mentioned, waiting seems to show self-control necessary for a healthy marriage.

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tmac
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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

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I'm just going to say this: Adultery and fornication are two completely different things. The modern Mormon Church is psycho about sex. But the scriptures actually have fairly little to say about fornication.
Last edited by tmac on May 1st, 2022, 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

tmac wrote: May 1st, 2022, 8:50 pm I'm just going to say this: Adultery and fornication are two completely different things. The modern Mormon Church is psycho about sex. But the scriptures actually have very, very little to say about fornication.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9 ​Know ye not that the ​​​unrighteous​ shall not ​​​inherit​ the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither ​​​fornicators​, nor idolaters, nor ​​​adulterers​, nor ​​​effeminate​, nor ​​​abusers​ of themselves with mankind,

​​​10 ​Nor ​​​thieves​, nor covetous, nor ​​​drunkards​, nor ​​​revilers​, nor ​​​extortioners​, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

Jacob 3:12

12 And now I, Jacob, spake many more things unto the people of Nephi, warning them against fornication and lasciviousness, and every kind of sin, telling them the awful consequences of them.

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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

Helaman 8:26

26 Yea, even at this time ye are ripening, because of your murders and your fornication and wickedness, for everlasting destruction; yea, and except ye repent it will come unto you soon.

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tmac
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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by tmac »

Now see if you can find anything that can actually be attributed to God about fornication.

Prophets and scribes from start to finish have always had their own opinions, on a variety of subjects, just as they do now.

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Sarah
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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by Sarah »

It's a very logical yes, it is always a sin. In fact, any sexual kissing before marriage is also a sin because you're sharing the sexual nature of your body with someone you're not married to. Children need parents who are committed to each other

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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by anonymous91 »

Here is one of the biggest problems with no sex before marriage, not sure what the answer is for this one though.

That is sexual libido. How many of us know couples who are absolutely miserable, because one of them wants sex all of the time, and the other one could care less? This makes for a very miserable and loveless marriage.

How many of these couples stay together for the sake of the children? Then after the kids are gone, are set in their ways, so they remain in their miserable circumstances until death.

The question is how do you remain a virgin, and even know what your sexual libido is, yet even attempt to figure out what your partners are. Now some people just get lucky, have a wonderful marriage, and are content in this area, but there are plenty of people who get the short end of the stick on this one.

To compound the situation young men are strongly encouraged to look for marriage as soon as they get home from their missions. So, here you have two young people getting into a marriage at the worst possible time in their lives.

For the young man, he's typically just started college thus putting himself into debt. Has no real job to speak of, and has no real idea what he is going to do with the rest of his life. For the young woman, she may or may not have went on a mission, but is comparably in a similar position. Typically, neither of them has a stable career, homes, or vehicles. Furthermore, neither have a clue about the hard realities of life, or what to expect.

So, now the church culture is breathing down their necks to hurry up and get married, there are bound to be casualties in such folly.

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Wolfwoman
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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by Wolfwoman »

As discussed briefly on another thread, birth control has vastly changed our society. Take birth control methods away for a second. Now, if you have premarital sex, you had better be prepared to take care of any children that come from your sexual experiences. That is the seriousness of sex, and why it's best to only do it with the person you're married to.

Now there are interesting stories in the Bible, like Tamar and Judah. They were not married, but apparently he was in the wrong much more than she was, because she was trying to fulfill the law to multiply and replenish the earth.

Take a look at the original D&C section 101 on marriage. https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... s-1835/259

Marriage should be performed publicly. This is to celebrate with your family and friends, but also to show them and everyone publicly that you are married. And can now engage in sexual relations legally and create children and all of that.

Those are my thoughts on the matter. :)

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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by Niemand »

As I say above, I think we made marriage too complicated. There are a lot of couples who live with each other for years on end, and never have a formal ceremony.

The irony is we're probably doing sealing work for some people who are recorded as married in documents, but who either had little to do with other or were playing away while married, while some couples who lived together for twenty or thirty years won't get sealed in the temple due to lack of official documents.

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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by Robin Hood »

I recently listened to a preacher who was dealing with the scripture which states that if a woman marries after being "put away" she commits adultery, and the only reason to divorce a wife is because of fornication.
I found his comments interesting.

Basically, "putting away" is not the same as divorce. Divorce is a clean break and the woman is free to marry again. But if she is put away she is simply moved aside, possibly in favour of an additional wife. The husband still has to provide for her etc.

But the interesting thing was his comments regarding divorce. Only fornication is given as a justification for divorce, yet how can the wife commit fornication if she's married? Is it a mistranslation of adultery?
Well, according to some, fornication is indeed the correct word. If a Jewish man marries a woman who presents herself as a virgin but it becomes apparent after the marriage that she wasn't, he can divorce her because of her undeclared fornication.

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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by ransomme »

Niemand wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 3:26 am As I say above, I think we made marriage too complicated. There are a lot of couples who live with each other for years on end, and never have a formal ceremony.

The irony is we're probably doing sealing work for some people who are recorded as married in documents, but who either had little to do with other or were playing away while married, while some couples who lived together for twenty or thirty years won't get sealed in the temple due to lack of official documents.
To marry is not complicated. Whatever is customary to let others know that two are married sufficeth.

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Niemand
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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by Niemand »

ransomme wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 5:00 am
Niemand wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 3:26 am As I say above, I think we made marriage too complicated. There are a lot of couples who live with each other for years on end, and never have a formal ceremony.

The irony is we're probably doing sealing work for some people who are recorded as married in documents, but who either had little to do with other or were playing away while married, while some couples who lived together for twenty or thirty years won't get sealed in the temple due to lack of official documents.
To marry is not complicated. Whatever is customary to let others know that two are married sufficeth.
Depends.

I know someone in our ward who was recently married over in the USA to a foreigner and the British authorities won't recognise it despite him and her producing heaps of relevant paperwork.

I also knew a couple who couldn't afford to marry here because they didn't have money for a licence. It would have been a bad match anyway.

This is without going into the cultural side. The average wedding here costs £20,000, and it tends to be the women who want to spend the money. Catering, venues all the rest. I know someone who had a fancy wedding divorced two years later. Western society breeds this need for expensive weddings among women.

A lot of men feel legally threatened by marriage. That's another reason. I know I do. I could marry someone then she would divorce me and bankrupt me completely because the law would be on her side. This happened to my own father.

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ransomme
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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by ransomme »

Niemand wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 6:45 am
ransomme wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 5:00 am
Niemand wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 3:26 am As I say above, I think we made marriage too complicated. There are a lot of couples who live with each other for years on end, and never have a formal ceremony.

The irony is we're probably doing sealing work for some people who are recorded as married in documents, but who either had little to do with other or were playing away while married, while some couples who lived together for twenty or thirty years won't get sealed in the temple due to lack of official documents.
To marry is not complicated. Whatever is customary to let others know that two are married sufficeth.
Depends.

I know someone in our ward who was recently married over in the USA to a foreigner and the British authorities won't recognise it despite him and her producing heaps of relevant paperwork.

I also knew a couple who couldn't afford to marry here because they didn't have money for a licence. It would have been a bad match anyway.

This is without going into the cultural side. The average wedding here costs £20,000, and it tends to be the women who want to spend the money. Catering, venues all the rest. I know someone who had a fancy wedding divorced two years later. Western society breeds this need for expensive weddings among women.

A lot of men feel legally threatened by marriage. That's another reason. I know I do. I could marry someone then she would divorce me and bankrupt me completely because the law would be on her side. This happened to my own father.
What no prenuptials?

And my view was meant to be what minimum standard should be.

£20k for a wedding is for fools.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by Robin Hood »

Niemand wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 6:45 am
ransomme wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 5:00 am
Niemand wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 3:26 am As I say above, I think we made marriage too complicated. There are a lot of couples who live with each other for years on end, and never have a formal ceremony.

The irony is we're probably doing sealing work for some people who are recorded as married in documents, but who either had little to do with other or were playing away while married, while some couples who lived together for twenty or thirty years won't get sealed in the temple due to lack of official documents.
To marry is not complicated. Whatever is customary to let others know that two are married sufficeth.
Depends.

I know someone in our ward who was recently married over in the USA to a foreigner and the British authorities won't recognise it despite him and her producing heaps of relevant paperwork.

I also knew a couple who couldn't afford to marry here because they didn't have money for a licence. It would have been a bad match anyway.

This is without going into the cultural side. The average wedding here costs £20,000, and it tends to be the women who want to spend the money. Catering, venues all the rest. I know someone who had a fancy wedding divorced two years later. Western society breeds this need for expensive weddings among women.

A lot of men feel legally threatened by marriage. That's another reason. I know I do. I could marry someone then she would divorce me and bankrupt me completely because the law would be on her side. This happened to my own father.
What nationality was the "foreigner" your ward member married in the US?

Refraction75
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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by Refraction75 »

BuriedTartaria wrote: May 1st, 2022, 3:55 pm I think part of societal decline is contributed to by looser use of swear words and a lack of tact in discussing mature topics (I also think part of societal decline is abandoning the moral goal to strive to save making love for marriage).

So for this thread title, I phrased you-know-what-I'm-talking-about as premarital 'love' to show some propriety.

Back to the topic at hand; is making love before marriage ALWAYS a sin?

This has been on my mind a lot lately. I can't point out any specific verse in the Bible or Book of Mormon that explicitly states the rule of expected conduct is for an individual to remain a virgin until they are married, but maybe this is explicitly stated somewhere in the Bible? There is the whole bridegroom/virgin thing.

What if society broke down and lines and definitions were less clear? What if in a more abstractly defined society, two people verbally committed to being 'married' to one another but there was nobody available to marry them or no structure to give a marriage any sort of weight to it? Would it be a sin for them to make love in a fully committed relationship?


What if someone left a church with a strict moral code (in certain ways) but carried the truth that was in it with him and met a neat girl with a Christian upbringing (who almost feels like an answer to prayer) but she had looser moral convictions from the culture she came from, despite the difference she knew she liked this guy and she wanted to give him a chance but not if it meant premarital love would be considered a sin and absolutely off the table? Should the man acquiesce the woman's desires to satisfy her terms and embrace the love he feels for her? Is that a sin? Would God be disappointed? Would God understand?

Did Adam feel something like this in the Garden? Is the point that you literally can't win and that's the point?
Are you asking for a friend?

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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Gadianton Slayer wrote: May 1st, 2022, 8:55 pm Jacob 3:12

12 And now I, Jacob, spake many more things unto the people of Nephi, warning them against fornication and lasciviousness, and every kind of sin, telling them the awful consequences of them.
We seem to have forgotten the BoM. Reminds me of a group of Gentiles who received and rejected the fullness.

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inho
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Re: Posing a moral ethical question: is premarital 'love' ALWAYS a sin

Post by inho »

Wolfwoman wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 3:12 am Now there are interesting stories in the Bible, like Tamar and Judah. They were not married, but apparently he was in the wrong much more than she was, because she was trying to fulfill the law to multiply and replenish the earth.
I was thinking Tamara and Judah too. Although, I am not completely sure what the take-home message of the story is. But at least it adds nuance.

I am also thinking Ruth. In LDS lessons, she is taught as one of the most virtuous women. But she did sneak into Boaz' bed! I tend to agree with those that say it is an euphemism, when she uncovered the feet of Boaz. I think she uncovered more than just ankles...

Tamara, Ruth, and Rahab the harlot were ancestress of Jesus. Interestingly, Matthew mention them and Bathsheba (a rape victim) when he lists the genealogy. They are the only women mentioned. *

* Here is an article about them: Scarlet Threads in the Lineage of Jesus (pdf)

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