Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

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Jamescm
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Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Jamescm »

If one can receive Priesthood authority through sheer revelation, it must be a circumstance exceptional enough that the Lord, rather than granting it to Joseph Smith via revelation, sent angels just to place their hands on his head, so usual and important this element apparently is.

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Luke
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Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

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Jamescm wrote: April 29th, 2022, 9:35 am If one can receive Priesthood authority through sheer revelation, it must be a circumstance exceptional enough that the Lord, rather than granting it to Joseph Smith via revelation, sent angels just to place their hands on his head, so usual and important this element apparently is.
I don’t believe it is exceptional. In fact, even when an ordination takes place, revelation to oneself is still necessary to truly have Priesthood.

An ordination is an “invitation” as some have put it. Can a man give another man Priesthood? I don’t think so. Only God can. A man may invite another to obtain Priesthood, but God must fulfil this.

As for Joseph receiving Priesthood by the ministering of angels:

1. This was an exceptional circumstance, as certain angels coming was part of the dispensation of the fullness of times.
2. There were three Priesthood restoration events which took place—only two involved angels.

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JLHPROF
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Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

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Luke wrote: April 28th, 2022, 11:03 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 28th, 2022, 9:41 pm
JLHPROF wrote: April 28th, 2022, 6:48 pm
Luke wrote: April 28th, 2022, 5:51 pm You're simply wrong.

So there's three ways to obtain Priesthood:

1. by revelation to oneself
2. by ordination from a man of God
3. by ordination through the "regular Priesthood"
There are restrictions. God made it clear throught Joseph that he will never do 1 if 3 is in existence.
And I'm still waiting on a single reference from this dispensation after priesthood was restored to Joseph where ordination came from heaven without going through the presiding authority. Just one valid occurrence of #1 since Joseph. Any time.
Yup. God doesn't create organizations just to circumvent them.

"No wonder the angel told good old Cornelius that he must send for Peter to learn how to be saved: Peter could baptise, and angels could not, so long as there were legal officers in the flesh holding the keys of the kingdom, or the authority of the priesthood. "
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... 2/11#facts
This quotation has nothing to do with a particular organisation. It only says that angels couldn’t baptise due to the fact of legal administrators being on earth.
Which is why they can't ordain or give priesthood authority either.

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Luke
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Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

Post by Luke »

JLHPROF wrote: April 29th, 2022, 9:55 am
Luke wrote: April 28th, 2022, 11:03 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: April 28th, 2022, 9:41 pm
JLHPROF wrote: April 28th, 2022, 6:48 pm

There are restrictions. God made it clear throught Joseph that he will never do 1 if 3 is in existence.
And I'm still waiting on a single reference from this dispensation after priesthood was restored to Joseph where ordination came from heaven without going through the presiding authority. Just one valid occurrence of #1 since Joseph. Any time.
Yup. God doesn't create organizations just to circumvent them.

"No wonder the angel told good old Cornelius that he must send for Peter to learn how to be saved: Peter could baptise, and angels could not, so long as there were legal officers in the flesh holding the keys of the kingdom, or the authority of the priesthood. "
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... 2/11#facts
This quotation has nothing to do with a particular organisation. It only says that angels couldn’t baptise due to the fact of legal administrators being on earth.
Which is why they can't ordain or give priesthood authority either.
Probably true. There’s nothing concrete to prove this though. A quote purported years later to be from Joseph (which was obviously invented to get a one-up on Strang) doesn’t count.

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Sarah
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Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

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Luke wrote: April 28th, 2022, 10:32 pm
Sarah wrote: April 28th, 2022, 9:47 pm
Luke wrote: April 28th, 2022, 8:42 pm
Sarah wrote: April 28th, 2022, 8:29 pm You mentioned that you believed there is a progression and there are levels of light out there the Lord sanctions, but the Lord condemns those who do not receive the greater light and revelation, and takes away light from those who reject the further light. It would have been wrong for John the Baptist to continue to baptize in opposition to the teachings of the apostles, just as it would have been wrong for Sydney to be independent of Joseph's authority. Once Joseph restored the higher priesthood, keys and ordinances, all those who go independent of his priesthood are rogue are condemned for rejecting the truth. So it comes down again to who you believe is telling the truth, Woodruff or Woolley. Anyone claiming to receive priesthood authority and keys directly from God should show the fruits that God is using them not only to bring the world to Christ but to bind the entire human family into God's great family, and that is being done currently by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Joseph explicitly stated otherwise.

As for the Woodruff vs Woolley thing, Woolley was never in opposition to Joseph's line of authority, because he received his authority from John Taylor. In fact, Joseph was there in the room directing the proceedings when John Taylor ordained the five men in 1886.

Woodruff lied in public, as history plainly shows, and further, he acknowledged that certain men had been ordained to keep CPM alive:
  • “A B Irvine told me that Apostle Woodruff told him that a certain number of worthy people had been commissioned to Keep alive the principle of plural marriage, this was in reference to the new marriages about which gossip was rife.”

    (Carlos Ashby Badger Journal, 8 October 1904, in LDS Church History Library, “Carlos Ashby Badger, 1878-1939” MS 2056 bx 2 fd 4)
Edit: I think that those with light in them would have aligned with Joseph, but I doubt God would have condemned them for not doing so. I also don't believe that principle is applicable today, seeing that the LDS Church is in a state of apostasy.
Right Joseph supposedly appeared at this meeting, which conveniently was not talked about until most of all the supposed participants were dead.

The quote above, even if it is a true story would not be referring to the meeting but any marriages performed after the manifesto.
Lorin Woolley talked about it to Spencer W. Kimball’s father in the 1890s. He said numerous times that he had met Joseph Smith.

As for the quote above, it doesn’t say either way, but it supports Lorin’s story more than anything. How many others claimed to have been set apart to keep the principle alive?
I don't know how many were set apart. I'd like to see all the evidence. And also what Lorin said to Brother Kimball. Everything I've read about the man and what he said convinces me that he was making it all up.

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darknesstolight
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Re: Receiving Priesthood by direct revelation

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Atticus wrote: April 28th, 2022, 5:36 pm
Luke wrote: April 25th, 2022, 9:15 pm Here, the Prophet Joseph Smith and President John Taylor establish the following fact: that one may receive Priesthood, 1. by direct revelation to themselves, 2. by ordination.

“We believe that no man can administer salvation through the gospel, to the souls of men, in the name of Jesus Christ, except he is authorized from God, by revelation, or by being ordained by some one whom God hath sent by revelation, as it is written by Paul, Romans 10:14, ‘and how shall they believe in him, of whom, they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? and how shall they preach, except they be sent?’ and I will ask, how can they be sent without a revelation, or some other visible display of the manifestation of God. And again, Hebrews, 5:4, ‘And no man taketh this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.’—And I would ask, how was Aaron called, but by revelation?” (Joseph Smith, 22 March 1839, Times and Seasons, Vol. 1, No. 4, pg. 54, February 1840)

“If a man is called of God, he must be called either by the voice or Spirit of God, or by somebody who is authorized of God, and knows something about His ways. If he does not receive his calling in this way, how is he going to get it? There is one other way—that is, if God has had a regular Priesthood upon the earth, unbroken, uncorrupted and uncontaminated, then it might come down from one to another through the different ages.” (John Taylor, JD 25:263, 17 August 1884)
The priesthood isn't given by revelation OR ordination.

It is given by revelation AND ordination.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
My response to this is always God has hands. So do angels. It's so arrogance to think only if touched by the hands of a Mormon will God say you are ordained.

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