right on . . in addition to answer a previous question from someone on a post . . . Moses and Enoch were called from among their people . . . if we are to assume people meaning COJCLDS boundaries, then . . . the marred servant can come from anywhere in the world . . . .where the church is . . .or a worthy priesthood holder is . . .ransomme wrote: ↑April 23rd, 2022, 6:18 pmYes there are physical locations for Zion as well. The city of Enoch was called Zion. I think The city of Salem under Melchizedek became a Zion. And in the Endtime when New Jerusalem is built, it is to be Zion as well.EvanLM wrote: ↑April 23rd, 2022, 1:57 pmnot sure what 4 means BUT zion will be physically and spiritually built on this the american continent . . . that crap about doing it in your home or the temple or whatever doesn't follow the pattern of a whole city being translated including wicked converts . . . wasn't just one family . . wasn't just temple worshippers . . . they were taught and led by a prophet to build Zion . . . when I read the scriptures . . then . . the Zion that keeps getting pushed by the "brethren" and in this post just do not intellectually match the pattern . . in other words, makes no sense . . .ransomme wrote: ↑April 21st, 2022, 2:52 am1. Saying "at the exclusion of" is an overstatement (too extreme in a strawman way). They definitely heavily teach/promote "follow the prophet" and I hear it echoed in the thoughts of many members from different countries (as a sample we have members from at least 27 different countries in my ward). Even to the point "that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves...” (TPJS p. 238). In other words, they rely to much on following the Prophet rather than developing their own spiritual muscles by seeking Him, trying to hear Him, etc. And stating that they can't lead astray is false doctrine.Subcomandante wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 5:50 pm
Responding to your (RW's) essay:
Part 1: The Church does not teach to follow the prophet as an exclusionary device but more like follow the prophet because He follows Christ. You follow both. Not one at the expense of the other.
Part 2: What was to become the saving ordinances was not yet finalized when the Wentworth letter was made. This was 1842. Nauvoo's temple was still under construction at the time.
Part 3: Everyone, poor or rich, has been asked to sacrifice their part to building up the Kingdom of God. Jesus appreciated the widow's mite more than many that donated weeks or months' loads of salary because she had given to Jesus everything.
Part 4: The Church does this part quite a bit in the local arena as well as global. It also looks to the future with anticipation because unlike many people on this board, it is quite obvious that the Lord requires a good effort from everyone. Zion's not going to come down like Tinker Bell pixie dust. It will require our consecrated efforts to bring that to pass. The 150 billion dollars is still a proverbial drop in the bucket compared to what Zion will cost in time, effort, and money.
Part 5: There is ample evidence that Joseph Smith did practice polygamy and was sealed to various women. That is a matter of public record. The Book of Mormon did not completely condemn polygamy, but did give one reason why polygamy would be permitted: To raise up seed to the Lord. This is a matter of fact in multiple dispensations. Once the amount of seed has gotten up to a critical mass, then polygamy would no longer be needed, and that's essentially what happened with the modern day Church.
Part 6: You act as if this was the only way. The rest of the post under 6 reads like something I would find out of "The Mormon Worker." No one can be forced into riches. But they can be taught how to work and find marketable skills in order not to be poor any longer. The Church through its self reliance education does its best to fulfill that scripture that there will be no more poor among us. Instead of lamenting and complaining, they take action.
7. That's not like the testimony meetings that I see in my ward, or in several other wards that I have seen. Now, given, where I do see an example like that marked in blue, I see that more often up and down the 15 corridor north of Vegas and south of the Montana border. Outside that, pretty much every testimony meeting I have seen is that which you describe in red.
8. The Church is in NO position to condemn and attack the secret combinations; it is nowhere near strong enough to stand on its own with the world combined against them. Any foolhardy attempt to copy a Captain Moroni style of attack would be met with stiff resistance and humiliating defeat. The best we can hope for today is a Gidgiddoni situation, not making everything public for all to hear, but quietly telling the members what they need to do for the rainy days ahead. And simply, NOT TO PARTICIPATE personally with the secret combos. That will starve them out, little by little. But this will require us uniting with people of other faiths who think similarly about what is going on, which is what the Church is doing here, smartly, intelligently, not rashly.
9. Most pharmaceutical drugs come from herbs. People have known that herbs have distinct medicinal properties, so you have people experienced in organic chemistry that find out how come two very different herbs have similar medicinal properties, and they isolate the chemicals from those herbs to form the pharmaceutical drugs we have today.
Vaccines? Not too much different. Some wise doctor figured out that if you were to give the body a weakened form of a bacteria or a virus, the immune system would be in a much better position to combat it, so that if the real form of the virus or bacteria attacked, the immune system would recognize the threat and stamp it out before it could get a person sick.
Keep in mind that Joseph Smith was very traumatized with the medicine that he received; going through a painful surgery as a young boy and watching his brother get sick and die from a type of medicine that contained mercury, a very poisonous chemical to ingest. Brigham Young, closely acquainted with Joseph Smith, undoubtedly had this in mind when he counseled the Saints these same things, but upon seeing the medical profession becoming full of "gentiles," he wisely sent elders east to learn of medicine and to bring these things back to Utah. Did Brigham fall? No. He learned, and he swallowed his pride.
10. The temples, though beautiful to look on, I could hardly describe as ornate, when comparing to other buildings that I have seen that are quite important in other faiths. Ever seen the national mosques under Islam? Let's not even go to Makkah or Madinah, let's go to Abu Dhabi (picture attached). There's not a single building owned by the Church that even comes to a hundredth of the ornateness or beauty of the Abu Dhabi mosque. Have you seen the cathedrals described as "National Cathedrals" in the different countries of the world under Catholicism or Orthodoxy? Or even those buildings described as local cathedrals. There is a ton more gold inside of the Basilica of Ocotlan in my local city of Tlaxcala, than there is in the Mexico City Temple. And the Basilica of Ocotlan isn't even the most important church in the city of Tlaxcala, population 100k! You do exaggerate much in that part. Perhaps because you are not well-traveled.
11. Different situation, that exhibited in the Book of Mormon versus now. The Book of Mormon you only see two countries. Now we have two hundred, each one with differing definitions on things like rights and freedoms.
12. I'll give you that one, albeit the Book of Mormon referenced the Lamanites who in this dispensation were NEVER prohibited from holding the priesthood. The Africans however were under a different set of restrictions that were employed from the Old Testament of the Bible.
13. Blood Atonement was taught by Brigham, however not taught afterwards, and is condemned by today's Church.
14. Not everyone can handle wine. Not everyone can handle bread either. The Church makes adjustments for both. It would be very interesting to try to impose the wine requirement on those that live in the Muslim countries in the Middle East where wine or any alcohol for that matter is strictly forbidden Good thing the Lord saw that coming.
15. Local meetings continue to be conducted under the Spirit. The General Authorities give their general conference messages under the conduct of the Spirit, preparing anywhere from a few hours to a full six months for their talks.
16. No one denies the gift of prophesy but it must be had in the sphere of influence of the person that is prophesying. No one outside of the FP and Q12 can prophesy to the entire Church and make it binding on the Church to follow. You could have someone from outside the hierarchy come, with the hierarchy's blessing (think Samuel the Lamanite in this case, or Balaam's case in the Old Testament when he refused to curse Israel), but it must come with their blessing. Occasionally you will get an Abinadi moment where someone from outside of the hierarchy comes, but that must be because all the hierarchy has been corrupted, selected by wicked men. We have no evidence of that in the Church today that any one of the 15 (much less all of them) are as the priests of King Noah.
17. This is now done for administrative purposes. But it's not the 12, 14, or 16 year old's fault that they haven't received these types of manifestations. You could have someone the age of a baby receive the manifestation. It all depends on how the work is done at home.
18. The Gospel will be taken from the Gentiles for their consistent insolence and their inability to obey the Gospel because it contradicts their political or social views. Maybe ten years ago, I would have guessed that those called Progmos would be the guys to do it (fall away). But there are many rock-solid members that are falling away too over many trivialities and a lack of proper understanding. If you go down to Latin America, or read the accounts of the Church in Spanish, virtually everyone is following the counsel of the leaders of the Church, with very few dissentions. North of the border, that is a very different story. You just had a Latino and an Asian get called as Apostles, and more and more people from different groups are being called to be General Authorities. The Church is starting to be handed over towards those of Israel as the Americans and Europeans start dwindling in unbelief, just as the scriptures foretold!
19. The Kingdom of God is on the earth today, though not in its fullness. That will come in the Millennium on the Earth.
20. If what you say is true, how come the leaders are constantly calling the members to repentance? How come the members willfully rebel against the Lord when an apostle reminds people about the Plan of Salvation?
To answer your final questions:
The Gentiles are those that came over from the European nations, both members and non-members. Their lot is cast in a bad way unless they repent.
You are not rejected from a chapel for being poor. You will be rejected if you don't follow local health protocols like the wearing of a mask or in countries where they require it, a vaccination certificate. That's not on the Church, however, but on the governments enforcing those regulations.
2. Who finalizes them? Weren't they finalized back at the foundation of the world? The point was how those things are taught in the BoM vs the change with all of its implications, especially by adding "first". Few things are taught more clearly and consistently as:
"…I must speak concerning the doctrine of Christ;...
Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life." - 2 Nephi 31:2,17,19,20
3. That is inaccurate, see the tithing thread. Anyhow the widow's mite was really about her heart vs the rich man's heart, and not about everyone has to pay. About their attitudes toward consecration. Then how the stewards use the donations is another ball of wax.
4. Completely wrong, temporally minded. God doesn't need money. What God requires are a broken heart and a contrite spirit. The Gentiles (including the CoJCoLDS) for the greater part will reject the fullness of the Gospel, which is why the Remnant of Jacob will lead the building of New Jerusalem. Also, Zion is not found in buildings, it is found in hearts and minds (broken hears and contrite spirits).
5. Look again. Joseph did not have multiple carnal wives. Joseph and Hyrum up until their deaths worked and spoke out against polygamy.
""A few years ago [May 1869 to April 1870] I obtained the affidavits of as many as I knew of, with a few exceptions, who received personal instructions or commandment from The Prophet respecting the Subject of celestial marriage [,] all of which are filed away in the H.O. [Historian’s Office]…. When the subject first came before my mind I must say I was astonished at the scarcity of evidence, I might say almost total absence of direct evidence upon the Subject, as connected with the Prophet Joseph himself. There was nothing written and but few living who were personally knowing to the fact that Joseph Taught the principle. True much had been written in support of the Doctrine, bearing upon scriptural-and rational evidences, but not a word, except the Revelation itself. Showing that the The Prophet was the Author-under God…."" (Joseph Smith’s Polygamy, Volume 1: History, Brian C. Hales, p. 9
Not a surprise seeing as how all the "evidence" came from 2nd or 3rd or more hands after Joseph's death and separated in time by up to decades from Joseph.
6. It is the only way in a sense. That is an attribute of Zion, "no poor among them" (Moses 7)
7. It's not about the 15-corridor culture, it is about what is taught from the pulpit by the 15.
8. The Church doesn't need to fight SC's, it's members do. It's hard for members to fight the good fight if the Church is supporting and promoting a number of them.
9. No most pharmaceutical drugs do not come from herbs. What they do is try to come up with synthetic versions so they can patent them.
Vaccines are an interesting concept, but they aren't as effective as they are promoted to be, and they have more adverse effects than are attributed to them.
Saying that BY swallowed his Pride is kinda funny. BY was the epitome of pride and self aggrandizment.
10. Our sanctuaries are indeed very fine, who are you kidding? Besides saying that there are more fine structures is a matter of degree, it's also a Red Herring fallacy.
11. The promised land is a land of liberty for a reason. Teaching a yielding to the enticings of incorrect principles is unbecoming and wrong. You know life is not about being comfortable it should be about the truth: finding it and teaching it. Seek ye first the kingdom of God.
12. Wrong again. You do not understand what darkness means, what God is Love is, what the land of Canaan was and how that is different than Ham's son Canaan, what Cain's, Lamech's and others' curse was, what Cain's mark was, and more.
13. Condemned? Do we have any signs of it being truly condemned? I question this, because that would mean that a prophet can lead us astray.
14. Your arguments here are mostly pointless. Grape juice is wine. New wine is from pressed grapes prior to fermentation. But that's neither here nor there really. The point is the ordinance and not water vs wine or bread vs rice cakes. Personally, I think the sacramental bread should be unleavened just as it was at the Last Supper.
15. There is a difference between prepared words (not that it is always wrong to prepare) and "take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost." (Mark 3:11)
16. He didn't say that others can or should prophesy for the entire Church. The point was that if one receives prophecy the test should not be whether it differs from the words of the current 15. For instance, on multiple occasions, my family and many that I know received clear personal revelation not to take the experimental COVID-19 vaccine despite that going against what the 15 taught on the matter. Were we wrong? Or Is it just because the 15 didn't say that one had to take it but only called it a "godsend" and 'strongly urged' us to take it that this situation doesn't qualify?
17. His argument is that it shouldn't be systematic.
18. Gong is of Asian descent but he is American. And you know it was kind of funny that just the other day my German/Swiss friend made a comment about how American Urchdorf is after living there and being in the 15 for quite a while now. Anyhow it is not isolated to N.A.
19. Actually it will come before the millennium when New Jerusalem is built during the time of tribulation. Just saying.
the purpose of Zion is to provide salvation for large groups of people not just a select family or group . . .sorry . . . God is usually NOT inefficient . . and his true servants are usually not inefficient . . . Enos could have saved his own family if that was the true pattern of Zion . . . ir just himself . . . cuz he had a Zion heart. . . but . . .the true pattern is for 100s to be saved . . . the whole city was translated . . .
sorry . . . again, the kindergarten, less, miraculous approach I see suggested here . . .
and, I think that anyone can certainly build Zion in their heart but . . . there is no evidence in the scriptures that God just saw someone's Zion heart and translated them . . . vs a whole city . . .
there is certainly more to it than just the heart . . .maybe a covenant
The point that I was making of God doesn't need a Church to amass 100 billion plus in funds in today's dollars to build it. Which is a reason the guy I was answering gave for the LDS hoard of wealth. Besides that money is pretty much all digital zeros and ones. Do people think that after tribulations that digital money is going to be there???
Also I was making the point that a people in a place Ina community become Zion through attaining a certain spiritual level. That's what really qualifies a people/place/community. Zion is based on and achieved through faith and righteousness.
"great was the glory of the Lord, which was upon his people. And the Lord blessed the land, and they were blessed upon the mountains, and upon the high places, and did flourish.
And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.
And Enoch continued his preaching in righteousness unto the people of God. And it came to pass in his days, that he built a city that was called the City of Holiness, even Zion."
(Moses 7:17-19)
JST
Gen 14:26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child, he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.
Gen 14:27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained a high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
Gen 14:28 It being after the order of the Son of God, which order came not by man, nor the will of man, neither by father nor mother, neither by beginning of days nor end of years, but of God.
Gen 14:29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name--
Gen 14:30 For God, having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself that everyone being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course,
Gen 14:31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God, to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.
Gen 14:32 And men having this faith, coming up unto this order of God, were translated and taken up into heaven.
Gen 14:33 And now, Melchizedek was a priest of this order; therefore, he obtained peace in Salem and was called the prince of peace.
Gen 14:34 And his people wrought righteousness, and obtained heaven, and sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken, separating it from the earth, having reserved it unto the latter days, or the end of the world,
Gen 14:35 And hath said, and sworn with an oath, that the heavens and the earth should come together and the sons of God should be tried so as by fire.
Gen 14:36 And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the king of peace.
Gen 14:37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest and the keeper of the storehouse of God,
Gen 14:38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.
this servant, like moses and enoch . . gather their people together . . . for SAFETY . . . while the tribulations become increasingly worse . . . .
and the servant is supposed to be raised up from Jerusalem, I think . . . well, with intermarrying and spreading of all peoples that could be anybody . . . or a literal Jew, maybe, . . . House of Israel guy . . . .
but those followers of Christ will know him . . .it is in the endowment . . . peter, james and john represent servants . . they are NOT the ONLY servants . . . they just represent servants . . . in this parable that is used to teach of the plan . . .
we are unable to tell by the endowment when this will happen since time is rather difficult as the plan of salvation is revealed in the endowment . . .
however, it tells us there will be a servant or servants(3) . . .and then more, of course . . .since adam and eve represent us in this parable (actually just Adam does-but for political purposes I'll state it this way) . . then we see that they have finally found the servants . . . and we see how we will know them . . . whether we are the house of Israel or gentiles . . .
my brother was called to jewish communities in pennsylvania in the 70s . . . as a missionary . . . he was told by the mayor of tel aviv, at that time . . .and by others that they have . . the temple plans, the temple endowment . . . have memorized the temple endowment, the initiatory, baptism, etc. . . even though they only know that they cannot use it now and they will be told when it will be used . . . . . .
when asked who will tell them to build the temple . . they claim a man . . . a prophet will tell them . . . since they do not believe in a prophet anymore then they accept that the restoration of their keys will be imminent . . . the claim that the dimensions and parts are in the scrolls of Moses that are unavailable to the public . . .
can't remember what that mormon jew is named that used to make tapes of jewish stuff related to LDS stuff, . . .anyway, that guy who did those tapes . . claims that they have the temple garments, robes, priesthood pack, etc. . . . they are just waiting . ..
I just want to tell you may reference to these things . . ok?
now let me make a comment . . . the Lord is always 10 steps ahead of satan . . or even more . . . he had the land in Jerusalem dedicated years ago . . .he had the land in Jackson county dedicated years ago . . . he put the whole plan into our scriptures . . . remember those prophets that saw the beginning to the end . . . they saw it and recorded it . . . that's why they make that comment . . beginning to end . . .
he protected the words of his and prophets that he wants us to have. . . . he is not deterred by any man on this earth and especially not satan . . .even prophets that are off track . . .or a church of people that are off track . . . he is the great creator . . .he is the great god of the old testament that divided the waters and supported the armies of Israel with his angels . . he is the god of this world and his plan and all of his words will be fulfilled to the letter . . . .
those of you who have chosen to take this god as their lead will see miracles that they never thought possible . . . many of us will NOT walk through divided seas BUT we will walk through fires . . most likely from bombs and will come out unscathed . . we will also, through our faith, bring others with us through those fires that God has asked us to bring . . .
the scriptures are all there even if some men or prophets or priesthood holders or leaders or moms or dads, or children . . . fail in this day . . . you cannot fail as long as you follow the right guide . . . .
