Russians are Furious About the Sinking of their Black Sea Flagship,Many Are Calling for WW3 Against the USA and NATO

[Artaxerxes]

Don't fall for the Russian propaganda. They're not even really trying anymore.

I admit the Russians are engaging in propaganda. The difference between us is that you don't appear to believe the West is engaging in it too.
Remember, truth is the first casualty of war.

When did I ever say that?

I simply said that it is a fanciful fever dream to believe that Ukraine killed 14,000 in a couple of months before Russian troops went into Donbas.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about "a couple of months". The only time period I mentioned was 8 years.

You claimed Russians sent troops into Donbas in response to the deaths of 14,000. That's a lie. They went in in 2014 to protect their hegemony. Your narrative pretends that Russians just now sent in troops, which is false.

[gkearney]

There is, no doubt, guilt here on both sides as there is in all wars. But the notion that Russia should get all whinny over the sinking of a warship in wartime strike me to be a bit disingenuous. I mean come on folks this is war after all.

[Robin Hood]

I admit the Russians are engaging in propaganda. The difference between us is that you don't appear to believe the West is engaging in it too.
Remember, truth is the first casualty of war.

When did I ever say that?

I simply said that it is a fanciful fever dream to believe that Ukraine killed 14,000 in a couple of months before Russian troops went into Donbas.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about "a couple of months". The only time period I mentioned was 8 years.

You claimed Russians sent troops into Donbas in response to the deaths of 14,000. That's a lie. They went in in 2014 to protect their hegemony. Your narrative pretends that Russians just now sent in troops, which is false.

So you agree the war started in 2014.

[Artaxerxes]

When did I ever say that?

I simply said that it is a fanciful fever dream to believe that Ukraine killed 14,000 in a couple of months before Russian troops went into Donbas.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about "a couple of months". The only time period I mentioned was 8 years.

You claimed Russians sent troops into Donbas in response to the deaths of 14,000. That's a lie. They went in in 2014 to protect their hegemony. Your narrative pretends that Russians just now sent in troops, which is false.

So you agree the war started in 2014.

Yes. Russia invaded Crimea and Donbas then, so it was obviously the start of the war.

[Niemand]

Separatists are people who want to separate from something. So in the downfall of the USSR, they were separatists. Now they are separate.

In 2014, people wanted to separate from Ukraine. That's not a value judgment, just a descriptive reality.

What's stupid about recognizing that they want to separate?

The term "separatist" is abusive, yet both the Ukraine itself and the USA could be referred to as "separatist entities" if we wish to use that.

I view the Ukrainian scenarios in different terms. I do not think the Crimea ever was fully Ukrainian, and only became so in living memory (just). Donbass and Lugansk/Luhansk is another level down, more questionable... and as for the rest of the Ukraine, especially the west, the Russians should never have laid hands on it.

I support the independence of both these places. America has flourished since independence. I support the right of places like Scotland, Quebec, Catalonia, Tibet or East Timor to self-determination. I oppose globalism, and the corporate takeover of this world. In fact, I think it would be a better place if power was devolved downwards instead of moving ever upwards into ever bigger and more remote forms of government. Unfortunately that is what Zelensky wants. The Ukraine may have escaped the Soviet Union, but his aim is to put it into the European Union, a military union and then a global union.

[Robin Hood]

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about "a couple of months". The only time period I mentioned was 8 years.

You claimed Russians sent troops into Donbas in response to the deaths of 14,000. That's a lie. They went in in 2014 to protect their hegemony. Your narrative pretends that Russians just now sent in troops, which is false.

So you agree the war started in 2014.

Yes. Russia invaded Crimea and Donbas then, so it was obviously the start of the war.

Russia didn't invade the Donbass in 2014, but they encouraged the ethnic Russians in the region to agitate for assimilation into Russia. And there were certainly a number of Russians who crossed the border to assist the independence movement.
However, there was no Russian invasion because if there was, why was it reported, even here in the West, that Russia invaded in February. We can't have it both ways.

[Artaxerxes]

You claimed Russians sent troops into Donbas in response to the deaths of 14,000. That's a lie. They went in in 2014 to protect their hegemony. Your narrative pretends that Russians just now sent in troops, which is false.

So you agree the war started in 2014.

Yes. Russia invaded Crimea and Donbas then, so it was obviously the start of the war.

Russia didn't invade the Donbass in 2014, but they encouraged the ethnic Russians in the region to agitate for assimilation into Russia. And there were certainly a number of Russians who crossed the border to assist the independence movement.
However, there was no Russian invasion because if there was, why was it reported, even here in the West, that Russia invaded in February. We can't have it both ways.

Again, that's just Russian propaganda. Just listen to/read about the Glazyev Tapes.

Russian troops invading in 2014 was widely reported then.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ru ... of_Ukraine
https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/an ... rn-ukraine
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31794523

And, I mean, are you really going to claim that Russia didn't invade Crimea?

What happened in February was a dramatic escalation. Instead of limiting it's attacks to Crimea and Donbas, it began widespread bombing and deployments.

[Niemand]

You claimed Russians sent troops into Donbas in response to the deaths of 14,000. That's a lie. They went in in 2014 to protect their hegemony. Your narrative pretends that Russians just now sent in troops, which is false.

So you agree the war started in 2014.

Yes. Russia invaded Crimea and Donbas then, so it was obviously the start of the war.

Russia didn't invade the Donbass in 2014, but they encouraged the ethnic Russians in the region to agitate for assimilation into Russia. And there were certainly a number of Russians who crossed the border to assist the independence movement.
However, there was no Russian invasion because if there was, why was it reported, even here in the West, that Russia invaded in February. We can't have it both ways.

Since folk always like to compare everything to the National Socialists... the Crimea strikes me as being similar to the Saarland, which was a genuinely German area, whereas Donbass and Lugansk is more like the Ukraine's Sudetenland.

What both these republics and the Ukraine as a whole share is that they have been used as cat's paws by bigger powers. The Ukraine had a colour coup d'etat revolution and then it ended up with a numpty clown like this in charge ->

[Robin Hood]

So you agree the war started in 2014.

Yes. Russia invaded Crimea and Donbas then, so it was obviously the start of the war.

Russia didn't invade the Donbass in 2014, but they encouraged the ethnic Russians in the region to agitate for assimilation into Russia. And there were certainly a number of Russians who crossed the border to assist the independence movement.
However, there was no Russian invasion because if there was, why was it reported, even here in the West, that Russia invaded in February. We can't have it both ways.

Again, that's just Russian propaganda. Just listen to/read about the Glazyev Tapes.

Russian troops invading in 2014 was widely reported then.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ru ... of_Ukraine
https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/an ... rn-ukraine
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31794523

And, I mean, are you really going to claim that Russia didn't invade Crimea?

What happened in February was a dramatic escalation. Instead of limiting it's attacks to Crimea and Donbas, it began widespread bombing and deployments.

You suffer from the same problem as Atticus - poor attention span... you don't read posts properly.
Of course Russia invaded Crimea, as I already said (see above comment). But they were welcome invaders; most people living there already considered themselves Russian, spoke Russian, were historically Russian (Crimea was was always part of Russia until Stalin changed it), and there was a massive Russian naval base there.
The only people who made a fuss about it were the pro-west Kiev government and the West. Crimea was quite happy about it.

[Artaxerxes]

Yes. Russia invaded Crimea and Donbas then, so it was obviously the start of the war.

Russia didn't invade the Donbass in 2014, but they encouraged the ethnic Russians in the region to agitate for assimilation into Russia. And there were certainly a number of Russians who crossed the border to assist the independence movement.
However, there was no Russian invasion because if there was, why was it reported, even here in the West, that Russia invaded in February. We can't have it both ways.

Again, that's just Russian propaganda. Just listen to/read about the Glazyev Tapes.

Russian troops invading in 2014 was widely reported then.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ru ... of_Ukraine
https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/an ... rn-ukraine
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31794523

And, I mean, are you really going to claim that Russia didn't invade Crimea?

What happened in February was a dramatic escalation. Instead of limiting it's attacks to Crimea and Donbas, it began widespread bombing and deployments.

You suffer from the same problem as Atticus - poor attention span... you don't read posts properly.
Of course Russia invaded Crimea, as I already said (see above comment). But they were welcome invaders; most people living there already considered themselves Russian, spoke Russian, were historically Russian (Crimea was was always part of Russia until Stalin changed it), and there was a massive Russian naval base there.
The only people who made a fuss about it were the pro-west Kiev government and the West. Crimea was quite happy about it.

People always send their armies when they're welcome. That's how you know it's just a friendly trip. Can you believe the government of Ukraine was upset that Russian troops were marching across it's borders? Crazy, right?

v8sjKA.gif (995.23 KiB) Viewed 697 times

I see you just ignored all that evidence of Russia also invading Donbas....

[Robin Hood]

Russia didn't invade the Donbass in 2014, but they encouraged the ethnic Russians in the region to agitate for assimilation into Russia. And there were certainly a number of Russians who crossed the border to assist the independence movement.
However, there was no Russian invasion because if there was, why was it reported, even here in the West, that Russia invaded in February. We can't have it both ways.

Again, that's just Russian propaganda. Just listen to/read about the Glazyev Tapes.

Russian troops invading in 2014 was widely reported then.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ru ... of_Ukraine
https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/an ... rn-ukraine
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31794523

And, I mean, are you really going to claim that Russia didn't invade Crimea?

What happened in February was a dramatic escalation. Instead of limiting it's attacks to Crimea and Donbas, it began widespread bombing and deployments.

You suffer from the same problem as Atticus - poor attention span... you don't read posts properly.
Of course Russia invaded Crimea, as I already said (see above comment). But they were welcome invaders; most people living there already considered themselves Russian, spoke Russian, were historically Russian (Crimea was was always part of Russia until Stalin changed it), and there was a massive Russian naval base there.
The only people who made a fuss about it were the pro-west Kiev government and the West. Crimea was quite happy about it.

People always send their armies when they're welcome. That's how you know it's just a friendly trip. Can you believe the government of Ukraine was upset that Russian troops were marching across it's borders? Crazy, right?

v8sjKA.gif

I see you just ignored all that evidence of Russia also invading Donbas....

Propaganda... see how easy that was?
A little trick I learned from you.

[Artaxerxes]

Again, that's just Russian propaganda. Just listen to/read about the Glazyev Tapes.

Russian troops invading in 2014 was widely reported then.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ru ... of_Ukraine
https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/an ... rn-ukraine
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31794523

And, I mean, are you really going to claim that Russia didn't invade Crimea?

What happened in February was a dramatic escalation. Instead of limiting it's attacks to Crimea and Donbas, it began widespread bombing and deployments.

You suffer from the same problem as Atticus - poor attention span... you don't read posts properly.
Of course Russia invaded Crimea, as I already said (see above comment). But they were welcome invaders; most people living there already considered themselves Russian, spoke Russian, were historically Russian (Crimea was was always part of Russia until Stalin changed it), and there was a massive Russian naval base there.
The only people who made a fuss about it were the pro-west Kiev government and the West. Crimea was quite happy about it.

People always send their armies when they're welcome. That's how you know it's just a friendly trip. Can you believe the government of Ukraine was upset that Russian troops were marching across it's borders? Crazy, right?

v8sjKA.gif

I see you just ignored all that evidence of Russia also invading Donbas....

Propaganda... see how easy that was?
A little trick I learned from you.

I mean, you sourced your prior claims so well....

[Robin Hood]

You suffer from the same problem as Atticus - poor attention span... you don't read posts properly.
Of course Russia invaded Crimea, as I already said (see above comment). But they were welcome invaders; most people living there already considered themselves Russian, spoke Russian, were historically Russian (Crimea was was always part of Russia until Stalin changed it), and there was a massive Russian naval base there.
The only people who made a fuss about it were the pro-west Kiev government and the West. Crimea was quite happy about it.

People always send their armies when they're welcome. That's how you know it's just a friendly trip. Can you believe the government of Ukraine was upset that Russian troops were marching across it's borders? Crazy, right?

v8sjKA.gif

I see you just ignored all that evidence of Russia also invading Donbas....

Propaganda... see how easy that was?
A little trick I learned from you.

I mean, you sourced your prior claims so well....

I know.

[Artaxerxes]

People always send their armies when they're welcome. That's how you know it's just a friendly trip. Can you believe the government of Ukraine was upset that Russian troops were marching across it's borders? Crazy, right?

v8sjKA.gif

I see you just ignored all that evidence of Russia also invading Donbas....

Propaganda... see how easy that was?
A little trick I learned from you.

I mean, you sourced your prior claims so well....

I know.

What could possibly be better than "I saw a video once of a guy who said you're wrong"? That's iron clad!

[Robin Hood]

Propaganda... see how easy that was?
A little trick I learned from you.

I mean, you sourced your prior claims so well....

I know.

What could possibly be better than "I saw a video once of a guy who said you're wrong"? That's iron clad!

Not nearly as good as.... "I believe the mainstream media who have been lying to us for the past two years, censor anyone who believes differently from their elite sponsored narrative, lied about Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Kosovo, Yemen etc, but I trust them to be telling the truth this time because... duh... propaganda".

[Artaxerxes]

I mean, you sourced your prior claims so well....

I know.

What could possibly be better than "I saw a video once of a guy who said you're wrong"? That's iron clad!

Not nearly as good as.... "I believe the mainstream media who have been lying to us for the past two years, censor anyone who believes differently from their elite sponsored narrative, lied about Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Kosovo, Yemen etc, but I trust them to be telling the truth this time because... duh... propaganda".

I hadn't realized the Polish Centre for Eastern Studies was part of the mainstream media. That's gotta be good news for them!

[Niemand]

Yes. Russia invaded Crimea and Donbas then, so it was obviously the start of the war.

Russia didn't invade the Donbass in 2014, but they encouraged the ethnic Russians in the region to agitate for assimilation into Russia. And there were certainly a number of Russians who crossed the border to assist the independence movement.
However, there was no Russian invasion because if there was, why was it reported, even here in the West, that Russia invaded in February. We can't have it both ways.

Again, that's just Russian propaganda. Just listen to/read about the Glazyev Tapes.

Russian troops invading in 2014 was widely reported then.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ru ... of_Ukraine
https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/an ... rn-ukraine
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31794523

And, I mean, are you really going to claim that Russia didn't invade Crimea?

What happened in February was a dramatic escalation. Instead of limiting it's attacks to Crimea and Donbas, it began widespread bombing and deployments.

You suffer from the same problem as Atticus - poor attention span... you don't read posts properly.
Of course Russia invaded Crimea, as I already said (see above comment). But they were welcome invaders; most people living there already considered themselves Russian, spoke Russian, were historically Russian (Crimea was was always part of Russia until Stalin changed it), and there was a massive Russian naval base there.
The only people who made a fuss about it were the pro-west Kiev government and the West. Crimea was quite happy about it.

NB - it was Khrushchev rather than Stalin. Stalin's contribution to the region was deporting Crimean Tartars to Siberia. I have an acquaintance whose wife comes from tha background. The Tartars there are still very bitter about it. (They are probably the largest group there who is neither Ukrainian nor Russian.)

[Robin Hood]

I know.

What could possibly be better than "I saw a video once of a guy who said you're wrong"? That's iron clad!

Not nearly as good as.... "I believe the mainstream media who have been lying to us for the past two years, censor anyone who believes differently from their elite sponsored narrative, lied about Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Kosovo, Yemen etc, but I trust them to be telling the truth this time because... duh... propaganda".

I hadn't realized the Polish Centre for Eastern Studies was part of the mainstream media. That's gotta be good news for them!

There are lots of things you don't appear to realise.

[Robin Hood]

Russia didn't invade the Donbass in 2014, but they encouraged the ethnic Russians in the region to agitate for assimilation into Russia. And there were certainly a number of Russians who crossed the border to assist the independence movement.
However, there was no Russian invasion because if there was, why was it reported, even here in the West, that Russia invaded in February. We can't have it both ways.

Again, that's just Russian propaganda. Just listen to/read about the Glazyev Tapes.

Russian troops invading in 2014 was widely reported then.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ru ... of_Ukraine
https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/an ... rn-ukraine
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31794523

And, I mean, are you really going to claim that Russia didn't invade Crimea?

What happened in February was a dramatic escalation. Instead of limiting it's attacks to Crimea and Donbas, it began widespread bombing and deployments.

You suffer from the same problem as Atticus - poor attention span... you don't read posts properly.
Of course Russia invaded Crimea, as I already said (see above comment). But they were welcome invaders; most people living there already considered themselves Russian, spoke Russian, were historically Russian (Crimea was was always part of Russia until Stalin changed it), and there was a massive Russian naval base there.
The only people who made a fuss about it were the pro-west Kiev government and the West. Crimea was quite happy about it.

NB - it was Khrushchev rather than Stalin. Stalin's contribution to the region was deporting Crimean Tartars to Siberia. I have an acquaintance whose wife comes from tha background. The Tartars there are still very bitter about it. (They are probably the largest group there who is neither Ukrainian nor Russian.)

So if it was Khrushchev it was even more recent. Thanks.

[gkearney]

Crimea was transferred from Russian to Ukrainian control in 1954. see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea

Prior to that date, Crimea had been administered by a range of governmental and revolutionary administrations and had been independent for a time.

If you're looking for a group of people who really got the shaft in all of this, the indigenous Crimeans known as the Tatars, who only got to govern their lands for brief periods before Stalin eventually excelled them all.

[BroJones]

Interesting, Joel Skousen (April 16th) on what's coming in this war:
https://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2 ... 71227.html

[GeeR]

Interesting, Joel Skousen (April 16th) on what's coming in this war:
https://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2 ... 71227.html

I just listened to Joel Skousen and I got to tell you I didn’t expect to hear the machinations he knows about concerning China, Russia and the United States with Europe and NATO. I quite honestly think he spends too much time and thought in the earthly governments that he has lost sight of the last days in the context of what is scriptural. For instance there is no mention of Zion being a beacon of light for the world to come to, he never mentions anything about Joseph Smith's prophecy of the Elders of Israel saving the Constitution, there is no mention of the gospel going to all nations and then the end comes. I think his one-sidedness is dark and creates hopelessness in religious people that is not necessary but actually depressing because practically everything he said was secular politics and machinations and for that reason he, at least to me, is not a reliable source of true information. At least his uncle–Cleon Skousen injected the Lords hand in the affairs of men more than does his nephew!

[Subcomandante]

One looks at this conflict with an objective eye, and one can see both truth and lies being sent forth.

The area that is Ukraine today was determined to be so by one Nikita Khrushchev, who set up Crimea and the Donbass region to answer to Kiev in place of Moscow. Those areas are heavily Russian and have been ever since the Russian Empire had a hold of the area from the time of the American Revolution.

Crimea has always been majority Russian (and partly Crimean Tatar) and the Donbas might be ethnically Ukrainian but Russian is the first language over there.

Now where the Russian narrative falls apart is their saying that Kievan Rus was once Russia. Though it is a clever play of words, this was more "People of Kiev" and not "Kiev Russians." Because in the regions west of Kiev, there is a group of people called the Rusyns (called Lemko in a few areas) but they would NEVER associate themselves with Russia and Russians. Literally a few hours after Putin started his SMO, the Rusyns put out a statement denouncing Putin's cultural lies regarding Kiev.

As another poster stated before, Krym is the Saarland / Rhineland and Donbas is Sudetenland.

[Robin Hood]

Interesting, Joel Skousen (April 16th) on what's coming in this war:
https://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2 ... 71227.html

I just listened to Joel Skousen and I got to tell you I didn’t expect to hear the machinations he knows about concerning China, Russia and the United States with Europe and NATO. I quite honestly think he spends too much time and thought in the earthly governments that he has lost sight of the last days in the context of what is scriptural. For instance there is no mention of Zion being a beacon of light for the world to come to, he never mentions anything about Joseph Smith's prophecy of the Elders of Israel saving the Constitution, there is no mention of the gospel going to all nations and then the end comes. I think his one-sidedness is dark and creates hopelessness in religious people that is not necessary but actually depressing because practically everything he said was secular politics and machinations and for that reason he, at least to me, is not a reliable source of true information. At least his uncle–Cleon Skousen injected the Lords hand in the affairs of men more than does his nephew!

Joel Skousen is dealing with the current and immediate situation and speaking to his audience. He doesn't ever go beyond WW3 and it's immediate NWO aftermath. He limits himself to that scenario bexause that is his arsa of competence and is the reason he is being interviewed.
Zion comes after the WW3/NWO developments.

[nightowl]

So let me see if I have this right, the Russians start a war with a third rate military power, the Ukraine. The the Ukraine, which do not even a navy to speak of sink a capital ship of the Russian navy and somehow now the Russian are “furious” that their ship was sunk. Well excuse me but just what the hell do the Russians think happen in wars anyway?

The Russians didn't start the war. The war was started 8 years ago by the Ukrainians, who thought it was perfectly ok to shell the Russian speaking civilian population in the Donbass region, killing 14,000 people in the process. The West remained silent.

Putin was open about what he would do if it didn't stop. It didn't stop so he did it.

Exactly. People think Russia is the problem unfortunately this goes deeper. This is typical USA behavior do spycraft behind the scenes to push the conflict instead of trying for an actual resolution but they need another war and distraction to take the peoples eyes off the corruption that is occurring. Not to mention all the "money" they are sending Ukraine for the war effort. So Ukraine is basically being used to money launder to politicians while they get richer we are about to get very poor with rising prices.