"if I were to tell you all I know...you would rise up and kill me", reported Joseph Smith quote.

[Bronco73idi]

I don’t care much for the direction this thread is going in, but I wanted to congratulate BeNotDeceived for writing in plain English

Indeedy due, I've noticed it, too. BeNotDeceived's making sense anew.

It don't get no more simpler than ABC is as simple as 123.

B4MJ morphed into plastic surgery man.

When I read abc123 this is what I thought of

[Bronco73idi]

For your consideration.

Curious: does Joseph in the gap teach that Joseph was wrong or right?

He was mostly right, but the saints, including Brigham would rather build fine homes and the Masonic Lodge rather than the Nauvoo Temple, and Nauvoo House as commanded. Moses’ experience was similar in his day. The third thing the Lord commanded was to complete translation of the Bible, which he did not accomplish, because he became caught up with worldly pursuits.

search.php?keywords=mGpzaLNVnls will find any time stamps from the video that Wondering Wendy posted. Interesting that JS passed the torch to Hyrum a year before his martyrdom. The video explains that a prophets calling includes testing the saints, and the Nauvoo era saints, on the whole, failed miserably.

I don’t care much for the direction this thread is going in, but I wanted to congratulate BeNotDeceived for writing in plain English

Joseph in the Gap: Another Desperate Attempt to Wish Away Polygamy as an Eternal Principle

While I’m here I guess I will add that Joseph passed the role of prophet, head of the church, to Hyrum so that he himself could ascend to the role of priest, head of the quorum of the anointed, and the role of king, head of the kingdom of God (under Christ). He wasn’t acknowledging himself as a fallen prophet by passing the mantle to Hyrum. Joseph repeatedly defended himself from allegations of being a false prophet.

Moses was in “the gap” as it were for his own sins. The course of every prophet, priest, and king is to establish a Zion and attain heaven by gathering the people under the keys and ordinances. Enoch and Melchizedek succeeded in this; Moses, David, Christ, and Joseph Smith did not. Sometimes that was the fault of the head, and sometimes that was the fault of the body (“how oft I would have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chicks under wings, and ye would not”).

A few hallmarks always attend the fullness of the order of heaven as it is established by these heads whom God calls: physical gathering, the usage and building of temples or tabernacles for the performing of ordinances, angelic dispensing of keys, communal living, a monarchist-aristocratic government , and polygyny.

Hence Jesus or Joseph—or any true prophet, priest, and king—would be killed by the Babylon-loving prudes of their day who make up the rank and file of the church or local community. This is why Joseph could only reveal all to the quorum of the anointed who had been sufficiently prepared for a latter-day throne of David.

That’s my witness: Joseph never fell, but his kingly reign was cut short in righteousness as the testator had to seal his testimony in blood.

If I had to write a book in response to Joseph in the Gap, I’d call it Joseph in the Throne.

“Joseph never fell, but his kingly reign was cut short in righteousness as the testator had to seal his testimony in blood.“

People on this forum mock BY for “blood atonement” teaching. I personally think Brigham wished his testimony could be sealed with his own blood. Until you truly understand that all of the Lord’s apostles sealed their own testimony the same way, you cannot fathom the significance of it. The real reason for JS death, it was time to move and he wasn’t going.

[BeNotDeceived]

I don’t care much for the direction this thread is going in, but I wanted to congratulate BeNotDeceived for writing in plain English

Indeedy due, I've noticed it, too. BeNotDeceived's making sense anew.

Much sense has begun to be made.

Premiered on 7 Mar 2022
Was the Melchizedek Priesthood Lost in 1834? (Feat. Jacob Isbell of the Doctrine of Christ Movement)

There's another perspective and video explanation. https://youtu.be/mCrmdAPDh7w?t=673 Why do you think the Lord gave them such a specific time frame, and what year was it?

[Elizabeth]

About time

Please continue to do so.

I wanted to congratulate BeNotDeceived for writing in plain English

[LDS Physician]

Maybe they wouldn't kill because of what he knows per se, but more because of the scam he was running on them. And he knew it.

You're right ... that's what con men do: hint here and there that they're pulling the wool over your eyes and then just keep the charade up.

[LDS Physician]

You have CLEARLY fulfilled one of Joseph Smiths prophecies with your very comment.

For your consideration.

Curious: does Joseph in the gap teach that Joseph was wrong or right?

Both. It teaches that Joseph was a true prophet and we had the fulness of the gospel for about 3 1/2 years or so. Then after the fulness was lost, Joseph stood in the gap as intercessor to save the saints. Because of this, he became a fallen prophet, and made many mistakes.

This is a good introduction, also. This is the Iron Rod podcast's presentation at Sunstone, including the author, Taylor Drake.

This video has some great stuff in it. Thanks for posting!

[JohnnyL]

Already well acquainted with many who wanted to kill him, including some apostates, Joseph is reported to have said the following.

"if I were to tell you all I know...you would rise up and kill me"
Joseph Smith

"On May 23, 1843, I listened to a discourse preached in the Nauvoo temple, which was then only partially finished. Brother Joseph was talking on the pre-existence of our spirits, and our relations to God in the spirit world, and our standing in the family circle of our Father. Now I am telling the truth, and I remember that while thus talking he suddenly turned around to the Apostles sitting on the stand and said in effect: 'Brethren, if I were to tell you all I know of the kingdom of God, I do know that you would rise up and kill me.' Brother Brigham arose and said, 'Don't tell me anything that I can't bear, for I don't want to apostatize.' Brother Joseph, addressing the Apostles, then said: 'The weight of this kingdom has been as a millstone around my neck, but I am going to roll it off on your shoulders, and then the kingdom of God will go on.' There were eleven of the Apostles present at this time. Among them I saw Parley Pratt, Orson Pratt, Willard Richards, Geo. A. Smith, Brigham Young and John Taylor. I don't remember the others." (Robert Horne, "Reminiscences of the Church in Nauvoo," Latter-Day Saints' Millennial Star, Vol. 55, No. 36, Sept. 4, 1893, p. 585)

Old and new testament era believers are well acquainted with this doctrine. A number of them also sealed their testimonies with their blood.

Yet, I have it on good (bad?) word that TRUE prophets would NEVER hold back God's truth...

[gruden2.0]

I find this ironic because he’d also probably be killed/rejected/cancelled by today’s public and shadow leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Probably not ironic at all:

https://vimeo.com/665462413?embedded=tr ... =153089590

[gruden2.0]

You have CLEARLY fulfilled one of Joseph Smiths prophecies with your very comment.

For your consideration.

Thanks for the video. This reminds me quite a bit of this guy's blog who has been writing about this for many years:

http://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/

One thing to remember is these things could've been regained if the Nauvoo temple had been built as directed, but too many men were interested in harem-building than building the Kingdom of God.

[gruden2.0]

Yet, I have it on good (bad?) word that TRUE prophets would NEVER hold back God's truth...

If you want to take Brigham's word on the quote, go ahead. Brigham frequently used Joseph to validate his opinions, so take it FWIW.

Joseph did say he tried very hard to teach the Saints, but they were so hard to reach because of the hardness of their hearts and disbelief. So it wasn't for lack of trying. How much can you tell someone who won't listen?

If you're referring to Wendy Nelson, she just plays a coy game I see more often in the Mormon heirarchy these days of pretending to know things of the mysteries and having revelations to give themselves an air of authority. If Pres. Nelson was a real prophet, he would be like Joseph, endeavoring to teach important things, as much as people are willing to receive. 'By their fruits...' etc. The Nelsons don't produce the fruits of a true prophet. They give pretentious talks, sure, but little more.

At some point real prophets are separated out because of this concept. They could be like Moses, living physically separated from the Israelites, Ether and Moroni who had to flee, or Abinadi and John the Baptist who were killed for speaking inconvenient truths. That's why prophets are the way they are. They aren't popular with the world and never will be. How Wendy and Russell can sit unaffected in their ivory towers should tell anyone a great deal who is at all familiar with the scriptures. The situations don't stack. If you're popular with the world (or at least at ease), you ain't telling any hard truths, which is antithetical to what a prophet is. They are going to speak and most of the world won't like it. It's easy to see in the scriptures, nothing has changed about people.