Luke believes it will be lived differently in the CK than the BY variant, but he's convinced that the Woolley/Musser stories are true, that WW did the wrong thing, and that the current church has no authority, so I would have to imagine he's in the process of trying to reconcile his beliefs with what the reality is on earth right now. He probably knows a lot more about the "order of heaven" than any of the polygamists he is associating with, but my guess is that he has reasoned that God's will is one way on earth and another in heaven. Feel free to correct me Luke.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 4:40 pmYou meeting him doesn't change eternal principles. Saying you believe something is meaningless unless you live out your belief. This is especially true when it comes to things such as your moral beliefs or your sense of good vs. evil. Also, it's wholly inappropriate for a person who doesn't practice what they preach to get upset and then suggest people are going to hell because they don't have the same fantasy about polygamy or lets not use fantasy, but, wishful thinking, because until you live this idea out, you really have no idea what you are talking about. Not really. And you have no moral standing to judge others for not living it either. That's the issue. Luke can share his fantasies all day if he wants and he can become upset when people don't agree with his wishful thinking but others are also free to point out that he is being nonsensical and hypocritical. People who talk bad against the IDOL of polygamy, will not be harmed or injured in ANY WAY by the Father. Luke making such threats is insane, ESPECIALLY since he isn't practicing what he preaches.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 3:43 pmI have met Luke and spoken with him at length.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 3:04 pmHe believes it's not authorized. So no he doesn't. He fantasizes about it but doesn't live it. Just like you can't say you believe in God while living in sin. Or I believe in loving while beating your wife, etc. Actions and being over time shows what a person really and truly believes not statements of belief. Statements without the underlying actions are dead.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 2:59 pm
Luke does believe in plural marriage. He is a fundamentalist.
Faith without works is nothing. So unless he is currently practicing this principle he doesn't really believe. That's hard doctrine for most because most will see how this applies in there life and it's uncomfortable to see yourself as a hypocritical liar or living a false idea.
...
He is a fundamentalist and has spent a lot of time living amongst fundamentalist groups in Mexico.
He's quite young so hasn't had chance to acquire one wife yet, let alone plural ones.
He has no legitimacy with me when it comes to him pretending people are being evil because they don't think the IDOL of polygamy is good. And if polygamy is ever "good" it's never gonna be the BY variant of it.
...
Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
- Sarah
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6702
Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
-
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1272
Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
Luke, I like you and certainly would not want to go 10 rounds or even 1 round arguing with you on this subject. That said, let me tell you with the conviction of God in my heart—-no experience you have had no matter how grand it has been for you which validated polygamy for you —is ever going to be more compelling and trustworthy than Joseph’s own unflinching straight forward condemnation of this practice... In other words Luke, I believe Joseph over you. 47 years of life has taught me Satan and his power to deceive can be nearly more impressive than our capacity to refute it. (Especially if we let him) I tell you that the good or better feelings / experiences you’ve gained with believing polygamy is D&C 132 sanctioned of God —was NOT Joseph Smith dispensation Head Prophet Seer and Revelator heaven received revelation. His convictions refuting and condemning polygamy— and the Lord’s truth un-edited in the D&C— and the marvelous fullness of the gospel truth found in the key stone of our religion— IS the Best! Let’s lay hold upon the Best!Luke wrote: ↑March 8th, 2022, 10:31 pmYep, and the Spirit tells me that this video (inspired, incidentally, by the fear of man) is false.edavid wrote: ↑March 6th, 2022, 1:30 pm Are we hearing the Spirit over the fear of man?https://youtu.be/W_wYAXING0M
- darknesstolight
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3865
Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
I know the propositional arguments that Luke has made. I've been here for many years. I know pretty much everything Luke has to say about his wishful thinking concerning polygamy. Talking about pie in the sky dream or what you think you'll be doing in the afterlife is essentially meaningless. You have no clue. You really don't. And neither does Luke.Sarah wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 5:03 pmLuke believes it will be lived differently in the CK than the BY variant, but he's convinced that the Woolley/Musser stories are true, that WW did the wrong thing, and that the current church has no authority, so I would have to imagine he's in the process of trying to reconcile his beliefs with what the reality is on earth right now. He probably knows a lot more about the "order of heaven" than any of the polygamists he is associating with, but my guess is that he has reasoned that God's will is one way on earth and another in heaven. Feel free to correct me Luke.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 4:40 pmYou meeting him doesn't change eternal principles. Saying you believe something is meaningless unless you live out your belief. This is especially true when it comes to things such as your moral beliefs or your sense of good vs. evil. Also, it's wholly inappropriate for a person who doesn't practice what they preach to get upset and then suggest people are going to hell because they don't have the same fantasy about polygamy or lets not use fantasy, but, wishful thinking, because until you live this idea out, you really have no idea what you are talking about. Not really. And you have no moral standing to judge others for not living it either. That's the issue. Luke can share his fantasies all day if he wants and he can become upset when people don't agree with his wishful thinking but others are also free to point out that he is being nonsensical and hypocritical. People who talk bad against the IDOL of polygamy, will not be harmed or injured in ANY WAY by the Father. Luke making such threats is insane, ESPECIALLY since he isn't practicing what he preaches.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 3:43 pmI have met Luke and spoken with him at length.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 3:04 pm
He believes it's not authorized. So no he doesn't. He fantasizes about it but doesn't live it. Just like you can't say you believe in God while living in sin. Or I believe in loving while beating your wife, etc. Actions and being over time shows what a person really and truly believes not statements of belief. Statements without the underlying actions are dead.
Faith without works is nothing. So unless he is currently practicing this principle he doesn't really believe. That's hard doctrine for most because most will see how this applies in there life and it's uncomfortable to see yourself as a hypocritical liar or living a false idea.
...
He is a fundamentalist and has spent a lot of time living amongst fundamentalist groups in Mexico.
He's quite young so hasn't had chance to acquire one wife yet, let alone plural ones.
He has no legitimacy with me when it comes to him pretending people are being evil because they don't think the IDOL of polygamy is good. And if polygamy is ever "good" it's never gonna be the BY variant of it.
...
It's a matter of truth and principle. People "say" they believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, ALL OF THE TIME, yet they don't do what He says or they don't conform their lives to His way. They talk about His way. They learn all about it. They study the scriptures. They learn RELIGION. They learn how to do rituals. They learn how to do chants. And then they use this as if it means they believe in God but really that's not how God lives. God doesn't do rituals. He doesn't do chants. He doesn't care about how much rational knowledge you have about what the religious books say about Him. He cares that you know Him and that you live His Way. This principle is true for pretty much every other statement of belief or assertion that one "believes".
It's hard doctrine for people to accept but it's the only thing that can be true in this context.
I believe in paying offerings. How do people actually know I believe it? They can know when they see me doing it on a regular basis. I believe in service. How do I know I believe in service? Because I serve others happily when opportunity arises and it's not beyond my capacity to do or take part it. I believe in Jesus Christ. How do I know I believe in Jesus Christ? Because in day to day circumstances I live according to the Way that He taught and although I make mistakes and I don't always do or say the right things given that I'm a mortal man who is still progressing, I do live this belief to the best of my ability every day. I believe in fellowshipping in the gospel. How do I know I believe it? Because I fellowship! And so forth...
That's how it works. Many will say, Lord, Lord, but at the last day the Lord will say, I don't know you because you didn't really believe. Religious belief is a misused word and it gets often used to discuss things like fantasies, wishful thinking, propositions, arguments, statements, or knowledge about something. Luke has a vast knowledge about polygamy and Luke really likes the idea but he doesn't believe it the way he thinks he does and the way he states it, unless he is secretly living polygamy, in which case I have no argument and clearly he believes it because he wouldn't be living it if he didn't really believe it.
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- Robin Hood
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13110
- Location: England
Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
So you're saying that when I was 15 my belief in eternal marriage was useless? That I was being hypocritical because I wasn't living the principle of marriage?darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 4:40 pmYou meeting him doesn't change eternal principles. Saying you believe something is meaningless unless you live out your belief. This is especially true when it comes to things such as your moral beliefs or your sense of good vs. evil. Also, it's wholly inappropriate for a person who doesn't practice what they preach to get upset and then suggest people are going to hell because they don't have the same fantasy about polygamy or lets not use fantasy, but, wishful thinking, because until you live this idea out, you really have no idea what you are talking about. Not really. And you have no moral standing to judge others for not living it either. That's the issue. Luke can share his fantasies all day if he wants and he can become upset when people don't agree with his wishful thinking but others are also free to point out that he is being nonsensical and hypocritical. People who talk bad against the IDOL of polygamy, will not be harmed or injured in ANY WAY by the Father. Luke making such threats is insane, ESPECIALLY since he isn't practicing what he preaches.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 3:43 pmI have met Luke and spoken with him at length.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 3:04 pmHe believes it's not authorized. So no he doesn't. He fantasizes about it but doesn't live it. Just like you can't say you believe in God while living in sin. Or I believe in loving while beating your wife, etc. Actions and being over time shows what a person really and truly believes not statements of belief. Statements without the underlying actions are dead.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 2:59 pm
Luke does believe in plural marriage. He is a fundamentalist.
Faith without works is nothing. So unless he is currently practicing this principle he doesn't really believe. That's hard doctrine for most because most will see how this applies in there life and it's uncomfortable to see yourself as a hypocritical liar or living a false idea.
...
He is a fundamentalist and has spent a lot of time living amongst fundamentalist groups in Mexico.
He's quite young so hasn't had chance to acquire one wife yet, let alone plural ones.
He has no legitimacy with me when it comes to him pretending people are being evil because they don't think the IDOL of polygamy is good. And if polygamy is ever "good" it's never gonna be the BY variant of it.
...
Do you believe in the resurrection?
- darknesstolight
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3865
Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
It's not the same. You as a child are not fully independent. Adults can fully realize their beliefs.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 11:54 pmSo you're saying that when I was 15 my belief in eternal marriage was useless? That I was being hypocritical because I wasn't living the principle of marriage?darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 4:40 pmYou meeting him doesn't change eternal principles. Saying you believe something is meaningless unless you live out your belief. This is especially true when it comes to things such as your moral beliefs or your sense of good vs. evil. Also, it's wholly inappropriate for a person who doesn't practice what they preach to get upset and then suggest people are going to hell because they don't have the same fantasy about polygamy or lets not use fantasy, but, wishful thinking, because until you live this idea out, you really have no idea what you are talking about. Not really. And you have no moral standing to judge others for not living it either. That's the issue. Luke can share his fantasies all day if he wants and he can become upset when people don't agree with his wishful thinking but others are also free to point out that he is being nonsensical and hypocritical. People who talk bad against the IDOL of polygamy, will not be harmed or injured in ANY WAY by the Father. Luke making such threats is insane, ESPECIALLY since he isn't practicing what he preaches.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 3:43 pmI have met Luke and spoken with him at length.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 3:04 pm
He believes it's not authorized. So no he doesn't. He fantasizes about it but doesn't live it. Just like you can't say you believe in God while living in sin. Or I believe in loving while beating your wife, etc. Actions and being over time shows what a person really and truly believes not statements of belief. Statements without the underlying actions are dead.
Faith without works is nothing. So unless he is currently practicing this principle he doesn't really believe. That's hard doctrine for most because most will see how this applies in there life and it's uncomfortable to see yourself as a hypocritical liar or living a false idea.
...
He is a fundamentalist and has spent a lot of time living amongst fundamentalist groups in Mexico.
He's quite young so hasn't had chance to acquire one wife yet, let alone plural ones.
He has no legitimacy with me when it comes to him pretending people are being evil because they don't think the IDOL of polygamy is good. And if polygamy is ever "good" it's never gonna be the BY variant of it.
...
Do you believe in the resurrection?
I live my life as if there were no resurrection or at least I try all the time to live that way.
...
- Luke
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10785
- Location: England
Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
Nope, I do believe it’s authorised. You’re confusing me with someone else. I just don’t presently live it.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 3:04 pmHe believes it's not authorized. So no he doesn't. He fantasizes about it but doesn't live it. Just like you can't say you believe in God while living in sin. Or I believe in loving while beating your wife, etc. Actions and being over time shows what a person really and truly believes not statements of belief. Statements without the underlying actions are dead.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 2:59 pmLuke does believe in plural marriage. He is a fundamentalist.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 12:02 pmNo it isn't. You don't believe in polygamy yourself and you are getting upset at other people who don't believe it either.
You don't really believe in polygamy. True belief requires doing and being. You have fantasies about polygamy. Full stop. Over.
...
Faith without works is nothing. So unless he is currently practicing this principle he doesn't really believe. That's hard doctrine for most because most will see how this applies in there life and it's uncomfortable to see yourself as a hypocritical liar or living a false idea.
...
Like I said, when it happens, you’ll be the first to know, and then you can eat your words.
- Robin Hood
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13110
- Location: England
Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
But do you believe in the resurrection?darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 8:23 amIt's not the same. You as a child are not fully independent. Adults can fully realize their beliefs.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 11:54 pmSo you're saying that when I was 15 my belief in eternal marriage was useless? That I was being hypocritical because I wasn't living the principle of marriage?darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 4:40 pmYou meeting him doesn't change eternal principles. Saying you believe something is meaningless unless you live out your belief. This is especially true when it comes to things such as your moral beliefs or your sense of good vs. evil. Also, it's wholly inappropriate for a person who doesn't practice what they preach to get upset and then suggest people are going to hell because they don't have the same fantasy about polygamy or lets not use fantasy, but, wishful thinking, because until you live this idea out, you really have no idea what you are talking about. Not really. And you have no moral standing to judge others for not living it either. That's the issue. Luke can share his fantasies all day if he wants and he can become upset when people don't agree with his wishful thinking but others are also free to point out that he is being nonsensical and hypocritical. People who talk bad against the IDOL of polygamy, will not be harmed or injured in ANY WAY by the Father. Luke making such threats is insane, ESPECIALLY since he isn't practicing what he preaches.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 3:43 pm
I have met Luke and spoken with him at length.
He is a fundamentalist and has spent a lot of time living amongst fundamentalist groups in Mexico.
He's quite young so hasn't had chance to acquire one wife yet, let alone plural ones.
He has no legitimacy with me when it comes to him pretending people are being evil because they don't think the IDOL of polygamy is good. And if polygamy is ever "good" it's never gonna be the BY variant of it.
...
Do you believe in the resurrection?
I live my life as if there were no resurrection or at least I try all the time to live that way.
...
- darknesstolight
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3865
Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
A resurrection is not something you have control over. It's a different type of idea but, I don't really know. I hope for it. I've not yet met any resurrected beings to my knowledge. But, I don't live as if I have a second life to make everything right with the idea that I can just half @#$ it while I'm here in mortality and bank on the idea that I'll be magically transformed in to what I ought to be once I've died and am brought back to life. I have intimations that the resurrection is true. I feel that its true. The best I can do with this idea, since I can't control it or use it literally right now, is use it for hope. The principle of "resurrection" is not an actionable principle, its a promise and I trust in the promise but live as if the promise isn't real.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 9:29 amBut do you believe in the resurrection?darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 8:23 amIt's not the same. You as a child are not fully independent. Adults can fully realize their beliefs.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 11:54 pmSo you're saying that when I was 15 my belief in eternal marriage was useless? That I was being hypocritical because I wasn't living the principle of marriage?darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 4:40 pm
You meeting him doesn't change eternal principles. Saying you believe something is meaningless unless you live out your belief. This is especially true when it comes to things such as your moral beliefs or your sense of good vs. evil. Also, it's wholly inappropriate for a person who doesn't practice what they preach to get upset and then suggest people are going to hell because they don't have the same fantasy about polygamy or lets not use fantasy, but, wishful thinking, because until you live this idea out, you really have no idea what you are talking about. Not really. And you have no moral standing to judge others for not living it either. That's the issue. Luke can share his fantasies all day if he wants and he can become upset when people don't agree with his wishful thinking but others are also free to point out that he is being nonsensical and hypocritical. People who talk bad against the IDOL of polygamy, will not be harmed or injured in ANY WAY by the Father. Luke making such threats is insane, ESPECIALLY since he isn't practicing what he preaches.
He has no legitimacy with me when it comes to him pretending people are being evil because they don't think the IDOL of polygamy is good. And if polygamy is ever "good" it's never gonna be the BY variant of it.
...
Do you believe in the resurrection?
I live my life as if there were no resurrection or at least I try all the time to live that way.
...
Also, you are missing the point. I would never get upset and angry and say you are going to hell if you started smack talking the idea of the resurrection. Luke is free to share his wishful thinking about polygamy and share what he thinks about it, etc. and how he wishes it will be in the "afterlife" and he is allowed to get upset too, of course. However he is a hypocrite and without foundation judging people as being hell bound for not accepting his wishful thinking about polygamy. He doesn't know what its like to live polygamy.
If you've ever attended a 12 step program, which I have many times, you'll get the idea better. Each group has a leader and a facilitator. The leaders and the facilitators are all addicts themselves who have been sober for years. They know by experience what it means to struggle with the disease of addiction. If you introduce a leader in to the group who professes to never have had any experience with addiction, never had any struggles with substance abuse, etc. BUT they have a degree and they've hung out with addicts and they've read tons of books about addiction and they've got certificates and all sorts of stuff, but that doesn't mean they know what they are talking about. The group would reject the leadership of such a person because such a person would be unable to assist them in the way that they need to be assisted. It would be very limited at the best. This person certainly would not be in any position to judge or condemn those in the group.
...
- darknesstolight
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3865
Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
Luke wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 8:57 amNope, I do believe it’s authorised. You’re confusing me with someone else. I just don’t presently live it.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 3:04 pmHe believes it's not authorized. So no he doesn't. He fantasizes about it but doesn't live it. Just like you can't say you believe in God while living in sin. Or I believe in loving while beating your wife, etc. Actions and being over time shows what a person really and truly believes not statements of belief. Statements without the underlying actions are dead.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 2:59 pmLuke does believe in plural marriage. He is a fundamentalist.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 12:02 pm
No it isn't. You don't believe in polygamy yourself and you are getting upset at other people who don't believe it either.
You don't really believe in polygamy. True belief requires doing and being. You have fantasies about polygamy. Full stop. Over.
...
Faith without works is nothing. So unless he is currently practicing this principle he doesn't really believe. That's hard doctrine for most because most will see how this applies in there life and it's uncomfortable to see yourself as a hypocritical liar or living a false idea.
...
Like I said, when it happens, you’ll be the first to know, and then you can eat your words.
So you got God's instructions? He authorized it for you? Luke, if you live polygamy my argument dies. Doesn't make polygamy good but at least my point about your particular position will be null and void.
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- Luke
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10785
- Location: England
Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
Yes, He did when He showed me the truth about Celestial Marriage two years ago. I’m just waiting on Him to direct me as far as specifics are concerned.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 10:42 amLuke wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 8:57 amNope, I do believe it’s authorised. You’re confusing me with someone else. I just don’t presently live it.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 3:04 pmHe believes it's not authorized. So no he doesn't. He fantasizes about it but doesn't live it. Just like you can't say you believe in God while living in sin. Or I believe in loving while beating your wife, etc. Actions and being over time shows what a person really and truly believes not statements of belief. Statements without the underlying actions are dead.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 2:59 pm
Luke does believe in plural marriage. He is a fundamentalist.
Faith without works is nothing. So unless he is currently practicing this principle he doesn't really believe. That's hard doctrine for most because most will see how this applies in there life and it's uncomfortable to see yourself as a hypocritical liar or living a false idea.
...
Like I said, when it happens, you’ll be the first to know, and then you can eat your words.So you got God's instructions? He authorized it for you? Luke, if you live polygamy my argument dies. Doesn't make polygamy good but at least my point about your particular position will be null and void.
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- TheDuke
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 5862
- Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs
Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
If is really incredible to say that if you sin, you don't believe in god as all sin. Darkness you've gone down this logic a few weeks ago, it was wrong then. I believe in many things that I don't live, doesn't make them wrong, In fact there isn't a single celestial thing that I believe that I am able to live in this life. This is a telestial world, no one bar Jesus is or ever will be perfect. I see Robin trying to point out the same thing with other examples.
I believe everyone in heaven will be rich..........I'm not rich........... I believe everyone in heaven will be fully healthy........... I'm old and have many ailments. ...... I believe I will have a celestial family .............. I'm in a telestial body. ... I believe I will live with my Eternal Mother and Father and see Jesus regularly.......... I don't today........ on and on and on.
Also, I believe it is not right to use words like damn and things, but occasionally do, but I believe in god. I threw this one in as you will change your argument to more mundane things we can control, or should be able to control. I would like to loose 15 pounds, but I still believe in god.............................
I believe everyone in heaven will be rich..........I'm not rich........... I believe everyone in heaven will be fully healthy........... I'm old and have many ailments. ...... I believe I will have a celestial family .............. I'm in a telestial body. ... I believe I will live with my Eternal Mother and Father and see Jesus regularly.......... I don't today........ on and on and on.
Also, I believe it is not right to use words like damn and things, but occasionally do, but I believe in god. I threw this one in as you will change your argument to more mundane things we can control, or should be able to control. I would like to loose 15 pounds, but I still believe in god.............................
- NeveR
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1252
Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
So, two years ago the Lord told you polygamy was a moral requirement and now you're waiting for him to tell you who the lucky girl is going to be.Luke wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 11:44 amYes, He did when He showed me the truth about Celestial Marriage two years ago. I’m just waiting on Him to direct me as far as specifics are concerned.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 10:42 amLuke wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 8:57 amNope, I do believe it’s authorised. You’re confusing me with someone else. I just don’t presently live it.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 3:04 pm
He believes it's not authorized. So no he doesn't. He fantasizes about it but doesn't live it. Just like you can't say you believe in God while living in sin. Or I believe in loving while beating your wife, etc. Actions and being over time shows what a person really and truly believes not statements of belief. Statements without the underlying actions are dead.
Faith without works is nothing. So unless he is currently practicing this principle he doesn't really believe. That's hard doctrine for most because most will see how this applies in there life and it's uncomfortable to see yourself as a hypocritical liar or living a false idea.
...
Like I said, when it happens, you’ll be the first to know, and then you can eat your words.So you got God's instructions? He authorized it for you? Luke, if you live polygamy my argument dies. Doesn't make polygamy good but at least my point about your particular position will be null and void.
...
Can you explain what moral principle it helps to uphold?
And how will you know when God is pointing at Mrs Luke No. 2?
Will you expect to find her attractive? Is that part of the moral imperative?
- darknesstolight
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3865
Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
Celestial Marriage is monogamy. You're talking about polygamy.Luke wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 11:44 amYes, He did when He showed me the truth about Celestial Marriage two years ago. I’m just waiting on Him to direct me as far as specifics are concerned.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 10:42 amLuke wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 8:57 amNope, I do believe it’s authorised. You’re confusing me with someone else. I just don’t presently live it.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 9th, 2022, 3:04 pm
He believes it's not authorized. So no he doesn't. He fantasizes about it but doesn't live it. Just like you can't say you believe in God while living in sin. Or I believe in loving while beating your wife, etc. Actions and being over time shows what a person really and truly believes not statements of belief. Statements without the underlying actions are dead.
Faith without works is nothing. So unless he is currently practicing this principle he doesn't really believe. That's hard doctrine for most because most will see how this applies in there life and it's uncomfortable to see yourself as a hypocritical liar or living a false idea.
...
Like I said, when it happens, you’ll be the first to know, and then you can eat your words.So you got God's instructions? He authorized it for you? Luke, if you live polygamy my argument dies. Doesn't make polygamy good but at least my point about your particular position will be null and void.
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But you saying that is the same as you saying I know without experience that polygamy is of God. It's the same thing you've been saying. So you're still waiting on authorization. You don't believe you should be living at the moment.
But what soecifics you waiting on? Like what? BY didn't provide the specifics? Your fundamental group doesn't have knowledge on that?
How did God show you? What did you see? What specifically did God say to you?
Did God say Luke you may live polygamy but not right now because you need specifics?
Why didn't you ask the specifics when you had His audience?
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- Baurak Ale
- Nauvoo Legion Captain
- Posts: 1068
- Location: The North Countries (Upper Midwest, USA)
Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
I don't believe it is immoral to find women attractive even if you're not married to them. My wife expressed concerns to me once about the potential physical attractiveness of a plural wife and the Lord gave me an answer to her concern that stopped both our mouths forever on the subject. It was a beautiful moment fueled by the Holy Ghost.NeveR wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 12:39 pmSo, two years ago the Lord told you polygamy was a moral requirement and now you're waiting for him to tell you who the lucky girl is going to be.Luke wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 11:44 amYes, He did when He showed me the truth about Celestial Marriage two years ago. I’m just waiting on Him to direct me as far as specifics are concerned.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 10:42 amSo you got God's instructions? He authorized it for you? Luke, if you live polygamy my argument dies. Doesn't make polygamy good but at least my point about your particular position will be null and void.
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Can you explain what moral principle it helps to uphold?
And how will you know when God is pointing at Mrs Luke No. 2?
Will you expect to find her attractive? Is that part of the moral imperative?
God blessed me with eyes and the ability to recognize and appreciate beauty whenever I see it. I see it in my wife everyday. God saw it in Abraham's wife: "The Lord said unto me: Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon" (Abr. 2:22).
- Sarah
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Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
I'm curious, what was the answer the Holy Ghost gave you settled the matter?Baurak Ale wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 1:28 pmI don't believe it is immoral to find women attractive even if you're not married to them. My wife expressed concerns to me once about the potential physical attractiveness of a plural wife and the Lord gave me an answer to her concern that stopped both our mouths forever on the subject. It was a beautiful moment fueled by the Holy Ghost.NeveR wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 12:39 pmSo, two years ago the Lord told you polygamy was a moral requirement and now you're waiting for him to tell you who the lucky girl is going to be.Luke wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 11:44 amYes, He did when He showed me the truth about Celestial Marriage two years ago. I’m just waiting on Him to direct me as far as specifics are concerned.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 10:42 am
So you got God's instructions? He authorized it for you? Luke, if you live polygamy my argument dies. Doesn't make polygamy good but at least my point about your particular position will be null and void.
...
Can you explain what moral principle it helps to uphold?
And how will you know when God is pointing at Mrs Luke No. 2?
Will you expect to find her attractive? Is that part of the moral imperative?
God blessed me with eyes and the ability to recognize and appreciate beauty whenever I see it. I see it in my wife everyday. God saw it in Abraham's wife: "The Lord said unto me: Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon" (Abr. 2:22).
- darknesstolight
- captain of 1,000
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Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
Fantasies about the afterlife.TheDuke wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 12:00 pm If is really incredible to say that if you sin, you don't believe in god as all sin. Darkness you've gone down this logic a few weeks ago, it was wrong then. I believe in many things that I don't live, doesn't make them wrong, In fact there isn't a single celestial thing that I believe that I am able to live in this life. This is a telestial world, no one bar Jesus is or ever will be perfect. I see Robin trying to point out the same thing with other examples.
I believe everyone in heaven will be rich..........I'm not rich........... I believe everyone in heaven will be fully healthy........... I'm old and have many ailments. ...... I believe I will have a celestial family .............. I'm in a telestial body. ... I believe I will live with my Eternal Mother and Father and see Jesus regularly.......... I don't today........ on and on and on.
Also, I believe it is not right to use words like damn and things, but occasionally do, but I believe in god. I threw this one in as you will change your argument to more mundane things we can control, or should be able to control. I would like to loose 15 pounds, but I still believe in god.............................
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- Baurak Ale
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Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
It came in the form of a parable. I feel it's a little too personal and sacred to share here though. Hope you understand.Sarah wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 1:33 pmI'm curious, what was the answer the Holy Ghost gave you settled the matter?Baurak Ale wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 1:28 pmI don't believe it is immoral to find women attractive even if you're not married to them. My wife expressed concerns to me once about the potential physical attractiveness of a plural wife and the Lord gave me an answer to her concern that stopped both our mouths forever on the subject. It was a beautiful moment fueled by the Holy Ghost.NeveR wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 12:39 pmSo, two years ago the Lord told you polygamy was a moral requirement and now you're waiting for him to tell you who the lucky girl is going to be.
Can you explain what moral principle it helps to uphold?
And how will you know when God is pointing at Mrs Luke No. 2?
Will you expect to find her attractive? Is that part of the moral imperative?
God blessed me with eyes and the ability to recognize and appreciate beauty whenever I see it. I see it in my wife everyday. God saw it in Abraham's wife: "The Lord said unto me: Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon" (Abr. 2:22).
- Luke
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- Location: England
Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
Don’t even bother trying to share precious pearls about the Principle on here, Baurak Ale. Too many swine who are likely to tread all over them, then turn and rend you.
- Luke
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Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
If you honestly want the answers, I will PM you. I’m finished with people like DtL who just mock the Principle and those who believe in it.NeveR wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 12:39 pmSo, two years ago the Lord told you polygamy was a moral requirement and now you're waiting for him to tell you who the lucky girl is going to be.Luke wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 11:44 amYes, He did when He showed me the truth about Celestial Marriage two years ago. I’m just waiting on Him to direct me as far as specifics are concerned.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 10:42 amSo you got God's instructions? He authorized it for you? Luke, if you live polygamy my argument dies. Doesn't make polygamy good but at least my point about your particular position will be null and void.
...
Can you explain what moral principle it helps to uphold?
And how will you know when God is pointing at Mrs Luke No. 2?
Will you expect to find her attractive? Is that part of the moral imperative?
- Sarah
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- Posts: 6702
Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
It seems very apparent that the blessings for exalted women are so much more sacred and hush hush than the blessings revealed for men.
- Luke
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Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
If you claim to know them, then why are you acting so envious? If you say you know a mystery of godliness, rejoice.
- Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
I think you're being a bit arrogant here buddy.
- NeveR
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Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
It's not mockery, it's skepticism. We ought to be always skeptical of commandments from God that appear to authorize our basest natures, right?Luke wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 1:49 pmIf you honestly want the answers, I will PM you. I’m finished with people like DtL who just mock the Principle and those who believe in it.NeveR wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 12:39 pmSo, two years ago the Lord told you polygamy was a moral requirement and now you're waiting for him to tell you who the lucky girl is going to be.Luke wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 11:44 amYes, He did when He showed me the truth about Celestial Marriage two years ago. I’m just waiting on Him to direct me as far as specifics are concerned.darknesstolight wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 10:42 am
So you got God's instructions? He authorized it for you? Luke, if you live polygamy my argument dies. Doesn't make polygamy good but at least my point about your particular position will be null and void.
...
Can you explain what moral principle it helps to uphold?
And how will you know when God is pointing at Mrs Luke No. 2?
Will you expect to find her attractive? Is that part of the moral imperative?
If I announced God had told me I NEEDED to lie in bed all day eating chocolate in order to enter the CK it would be prudent to interrogate this with skepticism wouldn't it.
Equally so when a man says "God just told me I need to take other wives in order to get to the CK", it's reasonably to be skeptical also.
Hence my question about what greater moral function will be served by you acquiring an additional sexual partner, and how the selection process will proceed.
These questions seem key to understanding what is really going on.
I have not mocked you and don't intend to
- Sarah
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Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
Just poking you, because I think it's disingenuous of you to be criticizing others for not believing in something when you know what they are thinking of, and you have a different understanding of that same topic. What they see as not right about it isn't unfounded. BY said himself that if the saints didn't progress, they would be overcome. I don't think it's right to be provoking others that way, in criticizing them for not believing in something that hasn't been revealed to them, nor do I think it's right to be encouraging a polygyny lifestyle that you know is not the complete story and ideal.Luke wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 1:57 pmIf you claim to know them, then why are you acting so envious? If you say you know a mystery of godliness, rejoice.
I sincerely believe that it was wrong for the saints to assume this was a commandment to be lived in the way it was lived in the BY days, and I believe the Lord intends a group of believers (men) to live this principle in a different way than simply a bunch of men each having their own multiple wives. We don't see with Abraham or Jacob for example, as part of a church, or a group of men united together as we do in a church setting. I believe the Lord permitted polygyny to occur on a large scale in those early days in order to give them all experience of good and evil, and test the hearts of the people. They didn't progress because they didn't want to share. My ancestor was told by JS in a vision, that it was a true principle, but that more would be dammed by it than saved. She wasn't commanded or encouraged to enter into it by JS or by the Lord, only that it was a true principle, just like many other women. And they will indeed receive their reward for exercising faith. So, yes, I do rejoice in my knowledge, but I also see the pain the past has brought to my ancestors and to many others which you seem to not really care about. All that seems to matter is that there is this law that allows for it. But where do you go from there? Will you stop in your progression and be damned, or will you continue to progress?
Last edited by Sarah on March 11th, 2022, 9:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
- Baurak Ale
- Nauvoo Legion Captain
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Re: Preserving the Restoration - Joseph and Polygamy
This is a telling response, equating plural marriage with indolent behavior. I think this is where most people get it wrong, so don't feel badly that I'm calling that out. The truth is that polygyny is about increasing a man's responsibility and the industry of his family unit, not sitting around in a hookah-induced torpor with one's harem.NeveR wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 2:05 pmIt's not mockery, it's skepticism. We ought to be always skeptical of commandments from God that appear to authorize our basest natures, right?Luke wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 1:49 pmIf you honestly want the answers, I will PM you. I’m finished with people like DtL who just mock the Principle and those who believe in it.NeveR wrote: ↑March 10th, 2022, 12:39 pmSo, two years ago the Lord told you polygamy was a moral requirement and now you're waiting for him to tell you who the lucky girl is going to be.
Can you explain what moral principle it helps to uphold?
And how will you know when God is pointing at Mrs Luke No. 2?
Will you expect to find her attractive? Is that part of the moral imperative?
If I announced God had told me I NEEDED to lie in bed all day eating chocolate in order to enter the CK it would be prudent to interrogate this with skepticism wouldn't it.
Equally so when a man says "God just told me I need to take other wives in order to get to the CK", it's reasonably to be skeptical also.
Hence my question about what greater moral function will be served by you acquiring an additional sexual partner, and how the selection process will proceed.
These questions seem key to understanding what is really going on.
I have not mocked you and don't intend to
Sex is a part of marriage and is enjoyable, but that activity serves only two purposes that are completely obfuscated when that activity is pejorated by even married couples into unnatural and abominable pursuits of pleasure. Those two purposes are: (1) strengthening the emotional bond of the couple, and (2) procreating children. God designed that this activity would be enjoyable or the human race would have died out long ago. But all things are to be enjoyed within the bounds the Lord has set. A couple once told me that after being married in the temple the law of chastity no longer applies in their bedroom. This is a false and disturbing notion.
Sex has been twisted by the world into the ultimate pleasure and source of satisfaction that can be had by couples. This precept falls apart in the face of spiritual communion and pursuit of the presence of the divine in marriage.
In my talks with people who blush at the thought of polygamy, sex is always considered the source of taboo. If we thought less like the "natural man" or woman in these regards and more like saints, the stigma could be replaced by an appreciation for not only the Lion of Judah but also his pride.