Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

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Mindfields
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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by Mindfields »

"Keys" in today's church are the equivalent of a big stick. Obey or I'll pummel you with my "keys"

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by iWriteStuff »

Mindfields wrote: February 15th, 2022, 4:54 pm "Keys" in today's church are the equivalent of a big stick. Obey or I'll pummel you with my "keys"
Is that like threatening to key someone’s car?

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Reluctant Watchman
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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

iWriteStuff wrote: February 15th, 2022, 5:02 pm
Mindfields wrote: February 15th, 2022, 4:54 pm "Keys" in today's church are the equivalent of a big stick. Obey or I'll pummel you with my "keys"
Is that like threatening to key someone’s car?
Maybe it's more akin to stealing keys... :)
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blitzinstripes
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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by blitzinstripes »

I've always viewed the keys as simply the directing authority. You and I (if you are a MP holder), have the authority to baptize and confirm converts and also to ordain others. As well as perform all other duties respective to your office. But the keys direct the work, because there must be order in the Lord's house. If I went out on my own and started baptizing and confirming people and ordaining them to the Priesthood, organizing wards and stakes and you did the same, it wouldn't take long for the house of order to become a house of chaos.

Certainly during the apostasy of the early Christian church, there remained properly ordained Priesthood holders, but with no oversight and direction by the martyred twelve who held those "keys", the chaos that ensued could not survive and the church fell into the resultant apostasy. Most of the new testament after the gospels, chronicles the beginning of that fall.
Order in the house. That's my take on the subject. Right, wrong, or indifferent.

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TheDuke
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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by TheDuke »

I think it is important to separate the discussion. Priesthood is the permission given which provides power to act in god's name. It can be specific (single task) or a bit broader. It appears that throughout history the Lord has given his power in many different ways and given different powers. Amos to talk to the king, Moses to start an entire dispensation.

Keys are they right to perform certain functions and are a subset of the priesthood. When god commands one to perform a task and the priesthood is received, the keys to accomplish that task are given, possibly along with knowledge, and more clear access to the spirit. One priesthood power and one set of keys is to pass on priesthood power. When this power is given and passed on it reduces the need for the Lord to come (or angels or whatever) and do this for each instance. The passing of the keys depends on how the dispensation leaders (and possibly subsequent leaders) determines it will be accomplished. Adam, Lehi and others seemed to pass it to a favored son (or brother). Moses picked a tribe and Aaron and they passed it down, occasionally (like Samuel) things broke down and a non-authorized person was called (like Samuel after Eli and his wicked sons died in one day).

Most of our use of keys is just policy and administration of key distribution. But, that is just that, admin, not the broad concept of keys used throughout scripture.

As far a succession, it seems that became the way the top-level keys (we call them PS&R) are passed down. Some here complain but it seems a bit better than either father to son, or who the king picks (Noah, King Mosiah, King David, King Soloman, etc...). But, surely it cannot mean the Lord cannot make exceptions (like Samuel and others) when necessary. My personal difficulty with temple questions is not is RMN a PSR for the LDS church, but stating the Lord is tied to the current succession and must pick his leaders in the entire world in this way. I always make a disclaimer there.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

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TheDuke wrote: February 15th, 2022, 6:38 pm My personal difficulty with temple questions is not is RMN a PSR for the LDS church, but stating the Lord is tied to the current succession and must pick his leaders in the entire world in this way. I always make a disclaimer there.
Expound on that. Disclaimer like how?

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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Once you realize BY wasn't the rightful successor, things get easier to understand.

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darknesstolight
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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by darknesstolight »

Priesthood is the Ruler, the Governor. Priesthood is what controls things. But you can't control priesthood. You have to let priesthood flow to you.

Keys is comprehension, knowledge, that unlocks a gate for you, a gate of ideas is one way of visualizing it. When you get a certain key it unlocks the text in a way so that you can comprehend what it is actually saying. Without the key, you could not understand the message properly. It would be encoded in effect. So, a key provides the means by which you discern an idea or an idea path. I say idea path because once you've discovered a Truth, an idea that is Truth, then that Truth leads to other Truths so there might be a path of Truths to follow and then you might come to a point where you no longer can see or decipher or understand and so you need another key.

If you don't have a particular key for an ordinance, lets say, then you don't know how to properly perform the ordinance. We do rituals that help keep us within the bounds of God and that are symbolic of real things and they help us to understand how to do real spiritual ordinances. We might do the ritual all of our lives never knowing that the ritual is not the actual ordinance although I would venture to guess that any sincere practicioner of the rituals would probably end up performing the ordinances correctly because what is really required at the end of the day, is for you to surrender your will, your ego, and your pride and let the priesthood flow through you because your heart and your intent is pure. So, the broken hearted and those with a contrite spirit are doing the ordinances correctly, regardless of the rituals or "magical" words they say.

...

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

It appears that sometimes we use 'keys' these days to refer to administrative controls and perhaps that isn't the same thing as the keys received by laying on of hands. (I need to look into this line of thinking more, so I'm not claiming any understanding here.)

For example, the bishop receives keys by the laying on of hands that authorizes him to do certain things. When he's released, those keys are taken away, but he's still a bishop. For what purpose? Is there something a bishop is authorized to do without keys that a high priest cannot? And if I understand it correctly, a bishop is given those keys when he is set apart as bishop, not during the ordination to office of bishop. Or am I mistaken? D&C 107:17
...provided he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power by the hands of the dPresidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
Sometimes it seems like keys and authority are used interchangeably; for example D&C 107:15
...holds the keys or authority of the same.
If a high priest ordains a priest, he must receive the nod by the bishop because the bishop has been authorized by the laying on of hands (keys) to permit the high priest to act in his office; but why is no laying on of hands authorization from the bishop to the high priest required? And if it's because the high priest already had the authority, then is the authorization of the bishop merely a formality? Or is it what I asked above, that the keys in this case are simply administrative governance stemming from institutional policy?

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darknesstolight
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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by darknesstolight »

Dusty Wanderer wrote: February 15th, 2022, 8:18 pm It appears that sometimes we use 'keys' these days to refer to administrative controls and perhaps that isn't the same thing as the keys received by laying on of hands. (I need to look into this line of thinking more, so I'm not claiming any understanding here.)

For example, the bishop receives keys by the laying on of hands that authorizes him to do certain things. When he's released, those keys are taken away, but he's still a bishop. For what purpose? Is there something a bishop is authorized to do without keys that a high priest cannot? And if I understand it correctly, a bishop is given those keys when he is set apart as bishop, not during the ordination to office of bishop. Or am I mistaken? D&C 107:17
...provided he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power by the hands of the dPresidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
Sometimes it seems like keys and authority are used interchangeably; for example D&C 107:15
...holds the keys or authority of the same.
If a high priest ordains a priest, he must receive the nod by the bishop because the bishop has been authorized by the laying on of hands (keys) to permit the high priest to act in his office; but why is no laying on of hands authorization from the bishop to the high priest required? And if it's because the high priest already had the authority, then is the authorization of the bishop merely a formality? Or is it what I asked above, that the keys in this case are simply administrative governance stemming from institutional policy?
The Church is operating under Aaronic Priesthood principles. The Aaronic Priesthood is the "administrative" priesthood. It's all about physical rituals, and down to Earth practical things, and getting stuff done, organization, administration, planning, etc. That's the Aaronic Priesthood and it has it's keys that function as administrative authorizations to perform a certain task. It's symbolic of the spiritual keys you receive in order to perform spiritual work. But the spiritual keys are not physical things, its "light, life, truth" or True Ideas or impressions or revelation, whatever you might call it, it unlocks a gate and allows you to understand what you need to do or think. It could be both because both the physical and the spiritual matter but the director, the governor, the controller, is Priesthood.

The Church doesn't teach this in this way. This is how I explain it and what I understand and how I operate in my life. I practice this principle the best I can. I also respect the Church as an organization. I don't try to interrupt the way the leaders want to do things or how they want to teach these ideas. I know the organization is a place to learn and it has to be administrative in function in order for the physical aspect of the church to function. We do need a place to go and worship and to gather and we are blessed to have wonderful infrastructure and places to go easily and comfortably and that's a blessing I hope doesn't go away even though I recognize we can exist even without the buildings but the Church does become fractionated and we can't fellowship as easily or even at all without the infrastructure and logistics, etc. I know the Church also believes it's using the Melchizedek Priesthood when it sets apart Stake Presidents and all of that and I don't deny that sometimes its all legit from a spiritual point of view, it all depends on the faith and the heart of those involved. Again, anyone with a broken heart and a contrite spirit who asks God will know where they stand, who they are, and what they need to do and will be empowered to do it properly, whatever it is.

Anyways, I hope that made sense.

...

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Cruiserdude
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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by Cruiserdude »

darknesstolight wrote: February 15th, 2022, 8:39 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: February 15th, 2022, 8:18 pm It appears that sometimes we use 'keys' these days to refer to administrative controls and perhaps that isn't the same thing as the keys received by laying on of hands. (I need to look into this line of thinking more, so I'm not claiming any understanding here.)

For example, the bishop receives keys by the laying on of hands that authorizes him to do certain things. When he's released, those keys are taken away, but he's still a bishop. For what purpose? Is there something a bishop is authorized to do without keys that a high priest cannot? And if I understand it correctly, a bishop is given those keys when he is set apart as bishop, not during the ordination to office of bishop. Or am I mistaken? D&C 107:17
...provided he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power by the hands of the dPresidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
Sometimes it seems like keys and authority are used interchangeably; for example D&C 107:15
...holds the keys or authority of the same.
If a high priest ordains a priest, he must receive the nod by the bishop because the bishop has been authorized by the laying on of hands (keys) to permit the high priest to act in his office; but why is no laying on of hands authorization from the bishop to the high priest required? And if it's because the high priest already had the authority, then is the authorization of the bishop merely a formality? Or is it what I asked above, that the keys in this case are simply administrative governance stemming from institutional policy?
The Church is operating under Aaronic Priesthood principles. The Aaronic Priesthood is the "administrative" priesthood. It's all about physical rituals, and down to Earth practical things, and getting stuff done, organization, administration, planning, etc. That's the Aaronic Priesthood and it has it's keys that function as administrative authorizations to perform a certain task. It's symbolic of the spiritual keys you receive in order to perform spiritual work. But the spiritual keys are not physical things, its "light, life, truth" or True Ideas or impressions or revelation, whatever you might call it, it unlocks a gate and allows you to understand what you need to do or think. It could be both because both the physical and the spiritual matter but the director, the governor, the controller, is Priesthood.

The Church doesn't teach this in this way. This is how I explain it and what I understand and how I operate in my life. I practice this principle the best I can. I also respect the Church as an organization. I don't try to interrupt the way the leaders want to do things or how they want to teach these ideas. I know the organization is a place to learn and it has to be administrative in function in order for the physical aspect of the church to function. We do need a place to go and worship and to gather and we are blessed to have wonderful infrastructure and places to go easily and comfortably and that's a blessing I hope doesn't go away even though I recognize we can exist even without the buildings but the Church does become fractionated and we can't fellowship as easily or even at all without the infrastructure and logistics, etc. I know the Church also believes it's using the Melchizedek Priesthood when it sets apart Stake Presidents and all of that and I don't deny that sometimes its all legit from a spiritual point of view, it all depends on the faith and the heart of those involved. Again, anyone with a broken heart and a contrite spirit who asks God will know where they stand, who they are, and what they need to do and will be empowered to do it properly, whatever it is.

Anyways, I hope that made sense.

...
Exactly. Well put👍

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TheDuke
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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by TheDuke »

I write: my disclaimer is that RMN and co have right to lead LDS but if the lord would like to go to Middle East for example he could call a local prophet to preach there. So there could be more than LDS if the lord wanted it. Not saying he will, just saying he has the right. Other than killing all 15 To get there

bbrown
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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by bbrown »

I’ve said this before on this forum but it seems apropriate here. In my experience I think I have only met 2 maybe 3 men that actually held Melchizedek priesthood. I thank the Lord it is so! It comes by his very specific command and in no other way. Think nephi in the book of Helaman If the men who think they had this power really did the entire earth would have been utterly destroyed by their arrogance and ignorance. The Lord does not give this power out to just everyone. To have the power to command and be obeyed would destroy almost all of us. Keys are a distraction that no one I’ve talked to can explain but they sure like to jingle them in your face to gain control.

That said I have seen and even participated in many of the miracles like in the Bible and Book of Mormon. But that is done by faith (albeit small and weak) and petition to HIM, and his mercy and benevolence. Not because Those involved had the power to command.

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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by Mamabear »

I find myself wondering if we are even operating under the Aaronic priesthood. John the Baptist had it. In Joseph’s day many men had the Aaronic priesthood. Although associated with the outward ordinances, this is a powerful priesthood associated with the ministering of angels. It seems to me like the blessings associated with that part of it were never accessed after Joseph died.
Deacons in the New Testament were adults with one wife and had very specific duties. During Bringham’s presidency the men who had the Aaronic priesthood wanted to move higher up and have the Melchizedek priesthood, so a decision was made to give it to the young men instead.

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Thinker
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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by Thinker »

Fred wrote: February 14th, 2022, 5:23 pm…When Schwab told RMN where the bear pooped, he was able to consult with his watchers and determine that Big Pharma was going to be coming into some heavy dough. Participating in such trends has made RMN a pretty good GWF. He guesses, watches, and fabricates a story that dumb people will believe. He has no heavenly keys. He probably does not even have a key to Schwab's wash room. But he does make a lot of money with his GWF business.

God never told RMN to start killing people with the clot shot. His ability to guess and watch allowed him to predict that people were attending church less and he should cut from 3 hours to two. He called it a prophecy, but he meant according to Google's definition...

We could have told RMN the clot shot was not a godsend. But he didn't ask.
:) Good points.
No conferring/consulting at conferences which has lead to becoming increasingly lost.

It seems that leaders & many adoring members have at least covert narcissism. Some aspect of narcissism are self absorption but appearance over substance, uses platitudes in place of genuine thoughts & feels special through association. Because they lack self awareness, response-ability & their compass is based on others, they are aimless & threatened by truth & directness.

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Thinker
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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by Thinker »

iWriteStuff wrote: February 14th, 2022, 11:43 am
Thinker wrote: February 14th, 2022, 11:38 am I suppose the answers depend on who you take as authority.
And I would say it's easier than that. If someone in authority says they have been given the keys to perform specific tasks, I would ask what are their fruits. Show me the prophecy, the revelation. Tell me when you last spoke to Jesus, or if you ever have. And I don't mean vague stories and strong hints, I mean tell me whether or not those gifts/fruits are made manifest or not.

Am I asking too much? Sincerely, tell me if this is out of line.

Why did Jesus tell us to look for fruit if He didn't expect us to do it? And if you have said fruit, why can't you share it?
That is definitely up the ladder in discerning the real deal.
Maybe this is just me, but I don’t believe in following prophets period. They can NEVER be perfect, & are a poor substitute for God. What I currently believe is that each person has like prophetic moments - & how blessed we are if we get to witness them! Yet, nobody can be looked to as we as kids, looked to our parents as perfect & god-like. Time to put off childish things. The real deal is God - no middle man required.

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Thinker
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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by Thinker »

iWriteStuff wrote: February 14th, 2022, 2:49 pm
HeberC wrote: February 14th, 2022, 12:10 pm...Keys come from God.
Let's explore that. How does one get the keys?
I’ve wanted to explore that, though I feel the need to first explore who we really are, in relation to God, before figuring out how to tap into God’s power.

“The kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU.” - Luke 17:21
That is so essential to get through our noggins! But we don’t!

Another tough one is “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Why is that so important to be the FIRST of the lower commandments? Probably because it’s so commonly broken - so tempting to have other gods. And if we have other gods, we get the wrong keys.

Many worship Jesus, even when he warned against it.

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TheDuke
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Re: Priesthood Keys & Laying On of Hands

Post by TheDuke »

When the first commandment of Moses "no other gods", they were worshiping Baal and others. Seems pretty straight forward that those specific words said not to worship those idols above Jehovah. In point of fact, it didn't even decree not to worship those idols but that Jehovah was above them. It this commandment was a social contract for the populace of the children of Israel, then it allowed all to worship as they choose, but in their camp none were to be worshipped as the top god but Jehovah.

Remember this is a commandment given to Moses to initiate the Law of Moses, this is not Jesus or someone in another dispensation talking about many gods. It does bug me when people try to say things like watching football or having a nice car is worshipping another god and use this commandment as an example. Totally, not worshipping as Moses sees it, i.e. offering sacrifice, bending knee, praying to, etc... I suppose the problem is it is easy to take any single commandment out of context and make it something new and more, but it isn't what was intended when it was given from the Lord.

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