The elect are not and will not be deceived

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kittycat51
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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by kittycat51 »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: February 12th, 2022, 11:27 am
Mamabear wrote: February 12th, 2022, 11:15 am …..so there is more JST than what is in our scriptures? How? Is this public knowledge or is it not public knowledge?
It is my understanding that the LDS church does not have the complete JST, but the RLDS church does. If you search the JST resource on LDS org, it is incomplete.
WOW, I honestly had no idea. That's disturbing.

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kittycat51
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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by kittycat51 »

Being There wrote: February 12th, 2022, 11:07 am
Mamabear wrote: February 12th, 2022, 11:00 am
Being There wrote: February 12th, 2022, 10:45 am
Mamabear wrote: February 11th, 2022, 12:49 pm I’ve been studying the topic of the elect. It’s clear to me that the elect have not been and will not be deceived. The key phrase is “if it were possible.” It isn’t possible to deceive the elect. They are God’s and know his voice.
This is why it’s hard to watch those around us fall for deception, especially in leadership positions. We have been conditioned to believe they are the elect.

“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, they shall deceive the very elect.” Matthew 24:24

“For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.”
Mark 13:22

“And ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts;”
D&C 29:7

A funny side note is, in Matthew 24:24, Christ is talking about the end time right before He comes. However, if you look at the footnote for that scripture it says, apostasy of the early Christian church. That’s not at all what He was talking about. It’s my belief in scriptures where it refers to false prophets, they try to sway you (in the footnotes) to think that it’s during the early apostasy, when really it’s the later apostasy.
ALL these scriptures are important.

Matthew
CHAPTER 24 (JST)
4 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be which thou hast said concerning the destruction of the temple, and the Jews;
and what is the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world
(or the destruction of the wicked, which is the end of the world)?


5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
7 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
8 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
9 And many false prophets shall arise and shall deceive many.
10 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
11 But he that remaineth steadfast and is not overcome, the same shall be saved.
12 When ye therefore, shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, then ye shall stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth let him understand:)
13 Then let them who are in Judaea flee into the mountains:
14 Let him who is on the housetop flee and not return to take any thing out of his house:
15 Neither let him who is in the field return back to take his clothes.
16 And woe unto them that are with child and unto them that give suck in those days!
17 Therefore, pray ye the Lord that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
18 For then, in those days, shall be great tribulations on the Jews and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, such as was not before sent upon Israel, of God, since the beginning of their kingdom until this time, no, nor ever shall be sent again upon Israel.
19 All things which have befallen them are only the beginning of the sorrows which shall come upon them;
and except those days should be shortened, there should none of their flesh be saved.
20 But for the elect’s sake, according to the covenant, those days shall be shortened.
21 Behold, these things I have spoken unto you concerning the Jews.
22 And again, AFTER the tribulation of those days which shall come upon Jerusalem,
if any man shall say unto you, Lo! Here is Christ, or there, believe him not.

23 For in those days, there shall also arise false Christs and false prophets and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch that, IF POSSIBLE, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant.
24 Behold, I speak these things unto you FOR THE ELECT'S SAKE.
25 And ye also shall hear of wars, and rumours of wars; see that ye be not troubled; for all I have told you must come to pass. But the end is not yet.
26 Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the light of the morning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 And now I shew unto you a parable: Behold, wheresoever the carcase is,
there will the eagles be gathered together; so likewise
SHALL MINE ELECT BE GATHERED FROM THE FOUR QUARTERS OF THE EARTH.
29 And they shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. Behold, I speak unto you for mine elect’s sake.
30 For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be famine, and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places.
31 And again, because iniquity shall abound, the love of men shall wax cold; but he that shall not be overcome, the same shall be saved.
32 And again, this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come, or the destruction of the wicked.
33 And again, shall the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, be fulfilled.
34 ¶ And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
35 Verily, I say unto you, This generation, in which these things shall be shewn forth, shall not pass away until all I have told you shall be fulfilled.
36 Although the days will come that heaven and earth shall pass away, yet my word shall not pass away; but all shall be fulfilled.
37 And as I said before, after the tribulation of those days, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn.
38 And they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
39 And whoso treasureth up my words shall not be deceived.
40 For the Son of Man shall come, and he shall send his angels before him with the great sound of a trumpet; and they shall gather together the remainder of his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
41 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When its branches are yet tender, and it begins to put forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh at hand:
42 So likewise mine elect, when they shall see all these things, they shall know that he is near, even at the doors.
43 ¶ But of that day and hour no one knoweth; no, not the angels of God in heaven, but my Father only.
44 But as it was in the days of Noah, so it shall be also at the coming of the Son of Man.
45 For it shall be with them as it was in the days which were before the flood; for until the day that Noah entered into the ark, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, and knew not until the flood came and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
46 Then shall be fulfilled that which is written, that in the last days,
47 Two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left.
48 Two shall be grinding at the mill; the one taken and the other left.
49 ¶ And what I say unto one, I say unto all men; Watch, therefore, for ye know not at what hour your Lord doth come.
50 But know this, if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched and would not have suffered his house to have been broken up, but would have been ready.
51 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
52 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
53 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
54 And verily, I say unto you, He shall make him ruler over all his goods.
55 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My Lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The Lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and shall appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
56 And thus cometh the end of the wicked according to the prophecy of Moses, saying, They should be cut off from among the people. But the end of the earth is not yet, but by and by.
Thank you. Where can I find this chapter of Matthew JST? It’s not in my quad.
https://scriptures.byu.edu/
https://scriptures.byu.edu/#48c18::
THANK YOU! I have the Source Citation app on my phone but did not realize that it had the full JST on it. I will utilize that much more now.

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ransomme
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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

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Status and/or position do not qualify one as elect. The brotheren are not elect per se. The elect will be found from the least of these on up.

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inho
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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

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Mamabear wrote: February 12th, 2022, 11:00 am Thank you. Where can I find this chapter of Matthew JST? It’s not in my quad.
Yes, it is. What Joseph did with Matthew 24 is so special that the chapter is included in the Pearl of Great Price. I mentioned it in my comment (the very first comment to your post), but you didn’t apparently notice that.

Some could interpret Matthew 24 to be a failed prophecy, since it mix stuff that happens in the times of the destruction of Jerusalem with stuff happening in the latter days. Joseph rearranged everything in the chapter so that it is clear what happens when (and thus it is not a failed proohecy).

And yes, there is more of JST than the short snippets in your LDS Bible. It should be common knowledge.

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inho
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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

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Maybe a side track, but intetesting:
https://bycommonconsent.com/2011/06/04/ ... th-history

So here’s what happened: KJV Mt. 24 is the Olivet prophecy. In it, Jesus is represented as foretelling events that will occur at the end of the world (or age). But here’s the thing: in the early Christian church, it was believed that the second coming would come quickly, certainly within a generation. So in this prophecy the dire events that would occur with the Jewish rebellion, the suppression of it by Rome, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and the scattering of the Jews into the Diaspora are portrayed as the events presaging the end of the world and the second coming of Jesus in glory.

But that’s not what happened. Sure, all those terrible events happened historically, but they weren’t accompanied by a return of the Savior. It has been almost two millennia, and the Savior still hasn’t returned. So in this respect the Olivet prophecy appears to be flawed. And the JST fixes this flaw.

JS-M does so by bifurcating the prophecy into two parts. The first part will be a prophecy of the events that will happen historically in the first century A.D. (destruction of the temple, scattering of the Jews, etc.), and the second part will be a prophecy of the events that will happen at the actual end of the world (which still haven’t happened and remain in our future).
The blog post has a link to a red line version comparing Matthew 24 and JST version.

This is relevant for the discussion, because (as I pointed out earlier), the verse about the elect not being deceived is about both the last days and the early days (there is 'also' indicating that). Thus, were the elect deceived in the days of the destruction of Jerusalem or not?

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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

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ransomme wrote: February 12th, 2022, 12:36 pm Status and/or position do not qualify one as elect. The brotheren are not elect per se. The elect will be found from the least of these on up.
I agree.
Often people pretend to be in charge of God’s laws, as if they can override truth. This is why often religious leaders/fanatics are more lost than average.

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Dusty Wanderer
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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

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Robin Hood wrote: February 12th, 2022, 4:33 am
Niemand wrote: February 12th, 2022, 4:24 am According to Salt Lake doctrine if you've been given the Second Anointing, you can do practically anything you want and still "get out of jail free".
That's not exactly the doctrine.
You would still go to jail so to speak, and suffer for your unrepented sins, but you get to go straight to the CK when you get out.
Always sounded too much like this:

2 Nephi 28
8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God... and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

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Original_Intent
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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by Original_Intent »

At any rate, there are probably many multiples of people that are deceived into believing they are the elect than the elect.

EvanLM
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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by EvanLM »

Being There wrote: February 12th, 2022, 11:21 am
Mamabear wrote: February 12th, 2022, 11:15 am
Being There wrote: February 12th, 2022, 11:07 am
Mamabear wrote: February 12th, 2022, 11:00 am

Thank you. Where can I find this chapter of Matthew JST? It’s not in my quad.
https://scriptures.byu.edu/
https://scriptures.byu.edu/#48c18::
Thanks. I don’t understand…..so there is more JST than what is in our scriptures? How? Is this public knowledge or is it not public knowledge? How do we know if it’s the real deal?
Sorry just confused.
the scriptures have been edited and changed hundreds of times by you know who.

then, I guess our God was very inefficient in preserving them , having them translated by reprobates and presented to us as the truth . . . saying that they have been changed is a good excuse for anyone to not have to obey them . . . I wish God wouldn't do things like that to us . . . confuse us with bad scriptures . . .well,. at least now, I'm off the hook . . .

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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by EvanLM »

Original_Intent wrote: February 12th, 2022, 5:05 pm At any rate, there are probably many multiples of people that are deceived into believing they are the elect than the elect.
if it is in the scriptures, then I'm going to believe that God wanted us elect to know who we are . . I don't think he intendeds it to be a secret . . . otherwise, why would he put it into the scriptures? . . . why would he even ask us to be perfect since we could deceive ourselves . . . .hmmmm . . . at any rate no one would be elect if they think that they are being deceived by thinking they are elect . . .

maybe our name has to appear in the scriptures or we have to have some notoriety or God has to give everyone who doubts a sign or get permisssion from each person on the earth to make someone elect . . . he has elect right here on the earth at this time . . . we are not the gate keepers of this any more than the prophets who doubt that anyone but them could be . . this doubt sounds just like them

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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by EvanLM »

inho wrote: February 12th, 2022, 1:36 pm
Mamabear wrote: February 12th, 2022, 11:00 am Thank you. Where can I find this chapter of Matthew JST? It’s not in my quad.
Yes, it is. What Joseph did with Matthew 24 is so special that the chapter is included in the Pearl of Great Price. I mentioned it in my comment (the very first comment to your post), but you didn’t apparently notice that.

Some could interpret Matthew 24 to be a failed prophecy, since it mix stuff that happens in the times of the destruction of Jerusalem with stuff happening in the latter days. Joseph rearranged everything in the chapter so that it is clear what happens when (and thus it is not a failed proohecy).

And yes, there is more of JST than the short snippets in your LDS Bible. It should be common knowledge.

david Ridges, the church ed sytem pres has published the translations of JS . . .you can get them all from deseret book . . .,some are under his name, I think

EvanLM
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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by EvanLM »

btw. . . if you purchase david ridges books regarding the new testament, and other scriptures, then he prints the KJV, then follows it with the JST scripture and sometimes with more information after the scripture or maybe before with more info . . . his work in these books is nice, I guess, but I still think, since I am paying his wages and for the printing with my tithing or my share of the churches' profits then I should get it for free. . .

all old knowledge and no, the church does NOT teach us how to get there . . . to CK . . to calling and election . . . they teach milk

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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by EvanLM »

markharr wrote: February 11th, 2022, 5:39 pm
EvanLM wrote: February 11th, 2022, 5:37 pm
markharr wrote: February 11th, 2022, 3:46 pm
Fred wrote: February 11th, 2022, 2:58 pm

I can't think of a single Q15 that fits the description above in red.
I don't know a single person that fits that description. In or out of the church.

That's why I think this scripture is referring to a future time. A time after the members go through much hardship and severe persecution.

That seems to be backed up by the heading for Mathew 24

Jesus foretells the doom of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple—Great calamities will precede His Second Coming—He gives the parable of the fig tree.
there are some already in the church and living today that have been persecuted, betrayed, and just beat on . . .we are being prepared for the even greater beatings of the last days . . . we are meek, and poor in spirit. . .humble to the Lord regarding what he has done in our lives as evil has tried to destroy us . . . . not given in to evil and grateful for the deliverance of the Lord when our very lives were at a stake . . . those who have already been through the fire will be prepared to help others who will have to go through the same fire . . . seeing evil firsthand and what it can do to us through other men provides a knowledge that keeps us vigilant. . . I say "we" cuz I just can't think I am the only one who has been tried like this . . .. and yes, I am unimportant to man . . but not to God . . .

This is a beautiful promise from God that if you would be elect as he describes then you will NOT be deceived . . .
I don't disagree that we are going through persecution now but this may be nothing compared to what is coming.
I am not talking about the general persecutions that the world goes through . . .the persecutions that I talk about are personal . . .only exprienced by those who want to be elect . . . or rise above the milk . . .

have you ever thought about he unique persons in the scriptures that have become elect. . . .the strange life of Joseph of Egypt, his brothers sold him . . .the constant beatings and trompings that JS got and his twins dieds because of exposure?, the desire for others to kill him? . . the almost sacrafice of Abraham . . .the exile form home of Jacob and the deceits of Laban . . . the sojourn of Nephi and Jacob and Samuel across oceans and to a new land? and so on and so on . . .

have you ever imagined yourself in these situations? it will be personal persecutions added to the general troubles of the day

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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by EvanLM »

Chip wrote: February 12th, 2022, 12:35 am
Mamabear wrote: February 11th, 2022, 7:08 pm
SempiternalHarbinger wrote: February 11th, 2022, 6:53 pm
Fred wrote: February 11th, 2022, 2:45 pm Well, there is the possibility that the Brethren (elect) are not deceived and are following satan, fauci, Schwab, et al, with full knowledge that they are giving up a life with Christ and God, and are fully aware of the consequences of thinking Lucifer had the best plan. In ALL cases, 100% of the time, democrats, Marxists, socialists, and other Luciferians DO believe that Lucifer had the best plan. It is not possible for a socialist to follow Christ without a change of heart. So when you realize that the Q15 are socialists and do vote left and do hate freedom, that if they did think that Lucifer had a bad plan, they would not be following it to the T.
Fred, maybe you didn't get the memo, even if the brethren are socialist, or are following satan, they have earned a permanent pass and are in good standing with God. They are all home-free.
Is he serious? What is this from?

I believe he is saying that all those people in leadership have had their "calling and election made sure". This is done through a special ordinance in the temple. It is not publicly discussed.

I've read several accounts and listened to a video. . . over the internet of this ceremony . . . . two men who had this election then decided they didn't like it . . .one man was still married but as he said, wife and kids were mad at him for not wanting to accept it anymore. . . . maybe I can still find the utbes of these men. . . . it was 8 years ago that I viewed the videos. . .

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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by 762X545 »

Chip wrote: February 11th, 2022, 1:54 pm If the elect cannot be deceived, how come the first presidency has given us this crazy vaxx guidance? Are they not the elect?
In their own eyes they sure are.

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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by 762X545 »

Original_Intent wrote: February 12th, 2022, 5:05 pm At any rate, there are probably many multiples of people that are deceived into believing they are the elect than the elect.

EvanLM
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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by EvanLM »

I remember that a part of it is the foot washing ceremony BUT the wife washes the husbands feet. . . I think the wife is supposed to represent the church and the husband is supposes to represent Christ . . . scriptures mention this relationship and talk about the marriage . . . I don't get the meaning behind most of it, so can't remeber it and don't care . . .cuz I would only believe Christ telling me that i had made it . . .I would not believe Holland or any other prophet. . .

in my patriarchal blessing it says that it is the voice of the Lord and " I seal you up unto eternal life and against the destroyer, etc." . . that's good enough for me

I hope that saints will realize that the gifts of God are real and that we need to have confidence that we can receive those . . .we also need to support our brothers and sisters who have already recieved them . . it is not fair to put too much doubt on people or condemn them when you question their experience . . .

but, I guess it is a part of the persecutions that make one humble

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sandman45
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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by sandman45 »

markharr wrote: February 11th, 2022, 2:56 pm I don't disagree with mamabears interpretation.

"would that" means that Lucifer wishes that he could deceive them.

It is true that anyone can be deceived but the definition of elect according to the topical guide is..


"The elect are those who love God with all their hearts and live lives that are pleasing to Him. Those who live such lives of discipleship will one day be selected by the Lord to be among His chosen children."

In this case, the elect are not deceived because they love God with all their heart.

What is up for debate here is who does God consider to be the very elect?
Joseph was deceived and gave into temptation and gave the translation to that one guy. God chastised him. So yes even joseph can make a mistake and so can every person on this earth. There is a reason trusting in god and not man is mentioned so many times in the scriptures

EvanLM
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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by EvanLM »

Bof M has scripture that even God can cease to be God. . . if he is not just . . mostly taught by Alma

the discouraging words against some claiming to be elect will be ignored in favor of the gift that God has given them . . the elect are the warriors of the Lord . . .the servants . . . everyone should want to be elect instead of whining away from it with faked humility . . .

Ammon and Alma, Moroni and Nephi and many in the other scriptures were all expressive with their servitude and blessing of the elect status . . . were they wrong?

time for God's warriors and servants to recognize who they are and to gather

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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by Mamabear »

sandman45 wrote: February 12th, 2022, 11:48 pm
markharr wrote: February 11th, 2022, 2:56 pm I don't disagree with mamabears interpretation.

"would that" means that Lucifer wishes that he could deceive them.

It is true that anyone can be deceived but the definition of elect according to the topical guide is..


"The elect are those who love God with all their hearts and live lives that are pleasing to Him. Those who live such lives of discipleship will one day be selected by the Lord to be among His chosen children."

In this case, the elect are not deceived because they love God with all their heart.

What is up for debate here is who does God consider to be the very elect?
Joseph was deceived and gave into temptation and gave the translation to that one guy. God chastised him. So yes even joseph can make a mistake and so can every person on this earth. There is a reason trusting in god and not man is mentioned so many times in the scriptures
We have all made mistakes or been deceived. I guess what I meant by my original post is that the elect won’t be deceived by false prophets and false Christs and furthermore by gadiantons, secret combinations, corrupt governments and people who say they are trying to help but are not.

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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by Thinker »

sandman45 wrote: February 12th, 2022, 11:48 pmJoseph was deceived and gave into temptation and gave the translation to that one guy. God chastised him. So yes even joseph can make a mistake and so can every person on this earth. There is a reason trusting in god and not man is mentioned so many times in the scriptures.
True! And the 1st of the lesser laws is…

Image

^ Is that a GA up on that mountain? :lol:

EvanLM
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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by EvanLM »

Alma 54:1-13. . . Amoron sent unto Moroni desiring that he would exchange prisoners . . .Moroni felt to rejoice . . . therefore, Moroni resolved upon a strategem to obtain as many prisoners from the Lamanites as it were possible . ..

therefore he wrote an epistle . . .I have written to you somewhat concerning this war that ye have waged against this people . . . the justice of God and the sword of the almighty wrath, which doth hang over you . . .

I would tell you concerning that awful justice that awaits to receive such murderers as thou and thy brother have been, except ye repent and withdraw your murderous purposes. . . But as . . ye have fought against the people of the Lord,, even so I may expect you will do it again . . . . even to your utter destruction . . .

as the Lord liveth our armies shall come upon you and ye shall soon be visited with death . . . .I talk to you concerning these things in vain . . .thou art a CHILD of HELL . . .

I will come against you with my armies . . . I will arm my women and my children . . .follow you even to your own land .. . blood for blood. . .life for life . . . battle even until ye are destroyed from off the face of the earth . . .

I am in my ANGER and also my people . . .ye have sought to murder us . . .( sooooooo today, isn't it?) we have only sought to defend ourselves(by not taking a shot or test or defending our rights to choose) . . .if you seek to destroy us we will seek to destroy you . . .

can you imagine words, even close to this coming from the mouth of, at least, one of our prophets, or all of them.

The war ; domination and killing people to a point that they can govern. as we see, they cannot govern this many people . . . this WAR has nothing to do with the earths' inability to support this many people but, instead, is about their ability to control a large number of people . . . . dominate them

The weapons ; vaccines, nose swabs, poisons, mind control, brain washing, fear, division, isolation, name calling, censorship, . . . our prophets and many people including TCOJCLDS people have been brain washed to believe that if we felt or acted like Moroni then we are criminals, prejudice, terrorists, stupid, blind to science, ignorant, spreading disinformation(which we are spreading, opposite to what our gads want spread), and doing everything to make us feel that there is something wrong with us so we do not resist the killings of our families and ourselves

so, why would our God want this recorded for our day?

note this reply to Moroni from Ammoron . . . . Alama 54: 24 I am a bold Lamanite( can't you just picture Pelosi, Fauci, Gates, Schumer, etc. here?); behold, this war hath been waged to AVENGE their wrongs(blacks wrongs, elite wrongs, what is it that our elite gads are avenging today?) and to maintain and to obtain THEIR RIGHTS to the GOVERNMENT . . . . What???? they have the right to govern over the people of Nephi ?????? hmmmmm . . .

today our politicians from federal to local tell us what?????? what a bunch of smug ------------- brainwashed also by these gads to be smarter or better . . .what a bunch of bs

I often wonder what God is saying since I hear only the brainwashing of this world coming through the mouths of our genereal leaders and prophets. Our local leaders. . . .well, they either support the prophets boldly, blindly or turn a blind eye and say nothing to our congregations.

While we are at great peril, we hear nothing . . . .we get no support but to submit . . . no wonder that the marred servant has to come from a strange position to the church . . . do you see a lot of leaders willing to step up?

The Lord warned us through the words of Isaiah . . . and like David . . . fleeing Saul and doing as Saul told him in battle, then we can only continue to follow our prophets until the Lord changes the pattern . . .

but we will fall if we are brainwashed . . .,Jesus can't use brainwashed people . . . only the righteousness and those who listen to HG . . . 5 of the virgins were not deceived . . . .

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Original_Intent
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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by Original_Intent »

EvanLM wrote: February 12th, 2022, 10:04 pm I remember that a part of it is the foot washing ceremony BUT the wife washes the husbands feet. . . I think the wife is supposed to represent the church and the husband is supposes to represent Christ . . . scriptures mention this relationship and talk about the marriage . . . I don't get the meaning behind most of it, so can't remeber it and don't care . . .cuz I would only believe Christ telling me that i had made it . . .I would not believe Holland or any other prophet. . .

in my patriarchal blessing it says that it is the voice of the Lord and " I seal you up unto eternal life and against the destroyer, etc." . . that's good enough for me

I hope that saints will realize that the gifts of God are real and that we need to have confidence that we can receive those . . .we also need to support our brothers and sisters who have already recieved them . . it is not fair to put too much doubt on people or condemn them when you question their experience . . .

but, I guess it is a part of the persecutions that make one humble
In response to the bolded part - it was Christ that did the foot washing, since the wife washes the husband's feet, she represents Christ, not the husband. It is important to understand what washing of the feet ritually symbolizes.

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TheDuke
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15 and G

Post by TheDuke »

A couple of thoughts. First, the list Mamabear put a while back about elect, seems accurate. There are topics that need to be separated and seem co-mingled here. First, the description of the elect is that, at description, not a definition. The simple definition of an elect person is one who has been both called and elected. So, the elect are those with C&E. However, having C&E made sure is another thing all together.

Jesus says some become elect in this life and they are Christ's and some were elect before this life and they are the Father's and of those he (Jesus) has lost not one of them and returned all to the Father. Elect before this life could also be called the great and noble ones, etc...

Having you're C&E made sure, is some comforting revelation of the spirit that you have made it. The 2nd anointing in the temple is intended to point you there but like all ordinances must be sealed by HG or HSofP to mean anything. And while the church teaches you need some physical ordinations (baptism, endowment, sealing, etc...) I have not seen anywhere where 2nd anointing is even claimed to be necessary for any reason.

So, what does having C&E (and knowing it) do for you? Seems is lets you know that you're on the right path at a certain point in progression and working on aspects of exaltation (IMO). but, it says if you sin you will pay and if you sin against HG you loose it. JS in KFD says the same of every child of god. All will eventually return home (but SoP) so really all are on a path to salvation (and perhaps exaltation which is somewhat unclear in KFD and elsewhere), all will return but those who become SoP... Seems we all have our C&E then in some sense just reading KFD? So, all you get from it is confidence and knowing where you are in the level of progression, knowledge is good.

Being elect has anything to do with leadership or positions or anything, it is personal. So ragging on LDS leaders is a total waste of time, on other thread we just read that Oaks says none of those today have claimed any such revelations (like Alma was his example). So, they don't claim it, why beat them up for it?

As far a being deceived, I would ask was Lucifer deceived? Or did he just want something else? The scripture says that none of the elect will be deceived, close but no cigar. But deceived doesn't mean perfect it means they don't lose their salvation (being elect), but big deal as that only happens to those who sin against HG and become SoP after all, any way. As far as fighting the Q15 and GA's about it, much todo about nothing when you study it carefully.

BTW the whole symbolism for 2nd anointing is that god is a husband and wife partnership which is true, though I'm not stating anything for or against the ordinance.

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markharr
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Re: The elect are not and will not be deceived

Post by markharr »

sandman45 wrote: February 12th, 2022, 11:48 pm
markharr wrote: February 11th, 2022, 2:56 pm I don't disagree with mamabears interpretation.

"would that" means that Lucifer wishes that he could deceive them.

It is true that anyone can be deceived but the definition of elect according to the topical guide is..


"The elect are those who love God with all their hearts and live lives that are pleasing to Him. Those who live such lives of discipleship will one day be selected by the Lord to be among His chosen children."

In this case, the elect are not deceived because they love God with all their heart.

What is up for debate here is who does God consider to be the very elect?
Joseph was deceived and gave into temptation and gave the translation to that one guy. God chastised him. So yes even joseph can make a mistake and so can every person on this earth. There is a reason trusting in god and not man is mentioned so many times in the scriptures
Great point. Thank you.

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