If God was once man who or what created the universe?

[Original_Intent]

Basically in cosmological terms, Mormons seem to be Steady State supporters, rather than Big Bang types.

no, a cycle. Big Bang and either eventual Big Collapse or Big Burnout (Entropy)

[Dusty Wanderer]

We perceive time linearly. We perceive space as three dimensions. ...

I like Carl Sagan's treatment here of the 4th dimension.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnURElCzGc0

I'll have to give that a listen. I do like what Rudolf Steiner said about the 4th dimension (and beyond). A very simplified TL;DR is that while we experience life in this 3rd dimension, we are in reality, at minimum, 4th dimensional beings, but probably more like 6th dimensional. We experience life in this physical body on earth from a 3rd dimensional perspective, but knowing that we also have a spirit and an intelligence (or as Steiner would describe: an etheric body, astral body, and ego), the other aspects of our body exist in a different dimension (and we don't perceive those in this physical world). If we could perceive ourselves in the 4th dimension, we would see our physical, etheric, and astral bodies. (something like that)

That sounds very interesting. Thanks for the link; I'll check it out.

[DJB]

The King Follet discourse is proof of MMP. The endowment is proof of MMP. Joseph Smith Jnr knew it would be a hard pill to swallow for the Saints. To know yourself and your potential is to know who God is, an exalted man who went from exaltation to exaltation.. If you can’t see it, then pray to have eyes to see..

[NeveR]

I used to be involved with a pantheist who believed that everything and everyone is 'God', and Creation "wasn't necessary" because the universe is eternal. This is really close to what some strands of Mormon thought propose.

To me it always felt like a cop out. Like the "mystery box" that idiotic TV writer JJ Abrams likes to talk about that doesn't need to make sense or have answers, and which is basically his excuse for bad writing and lack of imagination. Who cares how that polar bear got on the island? It just was, ok, now move on...

I'm just bothered by a story that seems to start part way through and leave out the most important bit.

The universe can't start with a Big Bang unless there's matter already there to go bang, and time already present for the bang to happen in.

When someone, whether Mormon, pantheist or atheist says "well the matter was just always there", I want to say "but what put it there?!"

Of course you can always argue everything is a massive computer program. Solid matter is merely an illusion after all, and everything we see and touch is mere energy vibration. A testing simulator for pan-dimensional beings?

That also fits with the idea we are evolving constantly, start as men and become Gods. We're leveling up in the biggest online multiplayer game we will ever see??

PS - that could explain "past life memories" too

[Niemand]

Basically in cosmological terms, Mormons seem to be Steady State supporters, rather than Big Bang types.

no, a cycle. Big Bang and either eventual Big Collapse or Big Burnout (Entropy)

That's the Oscillating Universe model. But there is a tendency towards Steady State when talking about reorganising matter.

[NeveR]

Basically in cosmological terms, Mormons seem to be Steady State supporters, rather than Big Bang types.

no, a cycle. Big Bang and either eventual Big Collapse or Big Burnout (Entropy)

That's the Oscillating Universe model. But there is a tendency towards Steady State when talking about reorganising matter.

But neither Steady State nor Big Bang explain - or even try to explain - where the matter originated.

[Niemand]

Basically in cosmological terms, Mormons seem to be Steady State supporters, rather than Big Bang types.

no, a cycle. Big Bang and either eventual Big Collapse or Big Burnout (Entropy)

That's the Oscillating Universe model. But there is a tendency towards Steady State when talking about reorganising matter.

But neither Steady State nor Big Bang explain - or even try to explain - where the matter originated.

Steady state theory says it never originated anywhere at all, that it always was. I know ?Fred Hoyle - the man who came up with it - or possibly someone else, said that his objection to the Big Bang was that it seemed too similar to Biblical Creation for his liking.

The Big Bang Theory (outside of the oscillating model) seems similar to the creatio ex nihilo that the LDS church has traditionally objected to. However, it has its own little remarked upon similarity to Steady State in that says that space-time only came into being at the Big Bang itself.... in other words all time is within this universe, and that there was no time before it. (Which raises a host of other questions.)

When it comes to cosmology and theology, it's like the old story about elephants You probably know it already, but one or two might not.

The man asked the mystic, "What does the world stand upon?"
The mystic replied, "On the shell of a giant turtle."
"But what does the turtle stand on?"
"A massive elephant."
"And what does that elephant stand on?"
"Another elephant."
"But what's at the bottom?"
"It's elephants all the way down."

Just about every story I hear about the origins of universe is some variant of elephants all the way down. Even this multiverse trope that is so fashionable these days. Or even the gods all standing on one another's shoulders. Or the question of where God came from.

The best I can come up with is the idea of God being the beginning of order in primordial chaos.

[NeveR]

no, a cycle. Big Bang and either eventual Big Collapse or Big Burnout (Entropy)

That's the Oscillating Universe model. But there is a tendency towards Steady State when talking about reorganising matter.

But neither Steady State nor Big Bang explain - or even try to explain - where the matter originated.

Steady state theory says it never originated anywhere at all, that it always was. I know ?Fred Hoyle - the man who came up with it - or possibly someone else, said that his objection to the Big Bang was that it seemed too similar to Biblical Creation for his liking.

The Big Bang Theory (outside of the oscillating model) seems similar to the creatio ex nihilo that the LDS church has traditionally objected to. However, it has its own little remarked upon similarity to Steady State in that says that space-time only came into being at the Big Bang itself.... in other words all time is within this universe, and that there was no time before it. (Which raises a host of other questions.)

When it comes to cosmology and theology, it's like the old story about elephants You probably know it already, but one or two might not.

The man asked the mystic, "What does the world stand upon?"
The mystic replied, "On the shell of a giant turtle."
"But what does the turtle stand on?"
"A massive elephant."
"And what does that elephant stand on?"
"Another elephant."
"But what's at the bottom?"
"It's elephants all the way down."

Just about every story I hear about the origins of universe is some variant of elephants all the way down. Even this multiverse trope that is so fashionable these days. Or even the gods all standing on one another's shoulders. Or the question of where God came from.

The best I can come up with is the idea of God being the beginning of order in primordial chaos.

Except even primordial chaos requires matter to be already existing

[Niemand]

That's the Oscillating Universe model. But there is a tendency towards Steady State when talking about reorganising matter.

But neither Steady State nor Big Bang explain - or even try to explain - where the matter originated.

Steady state theory says it never originated anywhere at all, that it always was. I know ?Fred Hoyle - the man who came up with it - or possibly someone else, said that his objection to the Big Bang was that it seemed too similar to Biblical Creation for his liking.

The Big Bang Theory (outside of the oscillating model) seems similar to the creatio ex nihilo that the LDS church has traditionally objected to. However, it has its own little remarked upon similarity to Steady State in that says that space-time only came into being at the Big Bang itself.... in other words all time is within this universe, and that there was no time before it. (Which raises a host of other questions.)

When it comes to cosmology and theology, it's like the old story about elephants You probably know it already, but one or two might not.

The man asked the mystic, "What does the world stand upon?"
The mystic replied, "On the shell of a giant turtle."
"But what does the turtle stand on?"
"A massive elephant."
"And what does that elephant stand on?"
"Another elephant."
"But what's at the bottom?"
"It's elephants all the way down."

Just about every story I hear about the origins of universe is some variant of elephants all the way down. Even this multiverse trope that is so fashionable these days. Or even the gods all standing on one another's shoulders. Or the question of where God came from.

The best I can come up with is the idea of God being the beginning of order in primordial chaos.

Except even primordial chaos requires matter to be already existing

Not necessarily. If we buy into mainstream science then it is claimed matter ceases to exist at a certain point at a subatomic level. A lot of the "content" in our universe is supposedly not matter as such, but various forces, and matter is generally defined as being made of atoms which not everything is.

[TheDuke]

I like most of what OI stated above, but I don't believe we ever give up our identity. I don't think we were yet gods, but we are celestial beings, children of god, on a path to being gods, all will eventually be gods, but it requires purging the attributes and attitudes that keep us from desiring to be honest and fair. I think as we progress we get more powerful bodies, with more appetites and desires but are able to control them (opposite of eastern philosophies). I don't think the dimensional thing is real, time continues forward, but I do believe we don't understand the infinite. Not all in the universe is god's only that which flows unto him without compulsory means, nothing is compelled, so it takes time. The intelligences that become hungry for life eventually become children of god, like us, and end up on this trip we are on now, purging or weaknesses. I personally don't think we can be perfect, like god alone and that is why we have eternal partners, three legged stool vs. one legged one, etc... IMO

[darknesstolight]

I was just reading this on the LDS website, written by Kent Nielsen
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

"The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man. … he was once a man like us … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth. …”

“If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and … God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. … And where was there ever a father without first being a son? … If Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? …"

Long before our God began his creations, he dwelt on a mortal world like ours, one of the creations that his Father had created for him and his brethren."

Of course I've come across this belief before, but not often stated so clearly, especially these days. This makes it quite specific that our God is only one of a long lineage of Gods who all began as men and whose powers are more akin to a more highly evolved alien being than a divine creator.

This is not the way most Christians and Jews interpret the God of the scripture. I was raised (vaguely) Episcopalian and my mother's mother is Jewish, so I know that the God they worship is a Creator spirit. The First Cause. The maker of the universe and all things in it.

That doesn't make the LDS view wrong of course. I don't think it or suggest it. But it does raise the obvious question - if the God of the scriptures isn't the First Cause and didn't create the universe from nothing - what or who did?

Is there any teaching about that?

Apologies if the answers are obvious. I'm new, ok! Or msybe just a slow learner...

God is All things in All things

...

[TheDuke]

God is all things not in all things.

God is a man (mankind).

Only things that flow unto him are his. There is no compulsory means, hence there are things that choose not to be with god but exist separately.

[darknesstolight]

God is all things not in all things.

God is a man (mankind).

Only things that flow unto him are his. There is no compulsory means, hence there are things that choose not to be with god but exist separately.

God is in all things. Everything. There would be no order without. God is All in All.

All things are a part of God. You can't escape God. It's like you deciding you are gonna take your adrenal gland, quite small, and decide to toss it from you. It's necessary and a part of you.

Every part of your body is one part of the whole. Isn't your heart too a part of you? Isn't it your heart and not my heart? And yet you are a part of the whole world, not a separate things. A necessary part. You are a part of other individuals and they are a part of you but you are also a part of the whole of humanity and the whole species.

Our planet is a part of the Universe. A necessary part. It's also the Universe.

What's above as what's below and what's below as what's above.

You zoom in or out in any direction and you see no difference. It's all one thing, Spirit/Matter.

...

[TheDuke]

Agree to disagree, me Snd JS agree however

[Peeps]

That doesn't make the LDS view wrong of course. I don't think it or suggest it. But it does raise the obvious question - if the God of the scriptures isn't the First Cause and didn't create the universe from nothing - what or who did?

Creation ex nihilo - creation out of nothing - is not a Mormon belief. Joseph Smith denied it. The Mormon view on creation is that God took unorganized matter and organized it. D&C 93:33 says that "The elements are eternal."

Joseph was a Mason. Masons worship Lucifer and know this at the higher degrees. These are the gods/elohim of Genesis chapter 1 and Abraham chapter 4. They cannot create matter ex nihilo like the LORD God/Jehovah Elohim of Genesis chapter 2.
viewtopic.php?p=1225473#p1225473

The elements are not eternal according 2 Peter 3, they melt/burn up.
2 Peter 3:10-12, The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. The heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat, the Earth also, the works shall be burned up. The heavens being on fire and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.

[nightlight]

That doesn't make the LDS view wrong of course. I don't think it or suggest it. But it does raise the obvious question - if the God of the scriptures isn't the First Cause and didn't create the universe from nothing - what or who did?

Creation ex nihilo - creation out of nothing - is not a Mormon belief. Joseph Smith denied it. The Mormon view on creation is that God took unorganized matter and organized it. D&C 93:33 says that "The elements are eternal."

Joseph was a Mason. Masons worship Lucifer and know this at the higher degrees. These are the gods/elohim of Genesis chapter 1 and Abraham chapter 4. They cannot create matter ex nihilo like the LORD God/Jehovah Elohim of Genesis chapter 2.
viewtopic.php?p=1225473#p1225473

The elements are not eternal according 2 Peter 3, they melt/burn up.
2 Peter 3:10-12, The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. The heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat, the Earth also, the works shall be burned up. The heavens being on fire and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.

You think George Washington worshiped Satan?

[Peeps]

That doesn't make the LDS view wrong of course. I don't think it or suggest it. But it does raise the obvious question - if the God of the scriptures isn't the First Cause and didn't create the universe from nothing - what or who did?

Creation ex nihilo - creation out of nothing - is not a Mormon belief. Joseph Smith denied it. The Mormon view on creation is that God took unorganized matter and organized it. D&C 93:33 says that "The elements are eternal."

Joseph was a Mason. Masons worship Lucifer and know this at the higher degrees. These are the gods/elohim of Genesis chapter 1 and Abraham chapter 4. They cannot create matter ex nihilo like the LORD God/Jehovah Elohim of Genesis chapter 2.
viewtopic.php?p=1225473#p1225473

The elements are not eternal according 2 Peter 3, they melt/burn up.
2 Peter 3:10-12, The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. The heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat, the Earth also, the works shall be burned up. The heavens being on fire and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.

You think George Washington worshiped Satan?

I believe the Masons worship Lucifer, which is who Christians believe is satan (and rightly so, imo). Lucifer is just the alter ego of satan. He is the white tile, the light bearer in the masonic duality system, while Satan is the black tile-- the right hand path vs left hand path, white magick vs black magick, etc. The Baphomet points upward with its right hand, points downward with it left hand, with two finger salutes, illustrating so as above, so as below.

Masons (higher degrees) believe Lucifer to be a Prometheus type, and that he brought forbidden knowledge to "help" mankind, and the prime creator God (Jehovah Elohim) was keeping Adam and Eve enslaved and imprisoned in the Garden of Eden, so he gave them knowledge to get kicked out into the dreary world and be "free."

That is what the masons worship, the quest for knowledge, they are forever seeking enlightenment, not realizing, or perhaps rejecting that real wisdom starts with the fear of the LORD. Ironically, that is in two places in the Book of Proverbs, chapter 1:7 and chapter 9:10...

Chap. 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Chap. 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.


...yet Solomon seemed to forget about everything he wrote in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, because he started writing grimores after he started practicing polygamy and marrying foreign wives in 1 Kings 11. I believe there is a picture of the Jupiter Talisman in one of the Keys of Solomon books where it has pics of sidgils of fallen angels. Solomon was the father of masonry imo, the original lord of the rings. He supposedly had this magick ring that he could control demons with that helped him build temples for his pagan wives.

George Washington was rumored to renouce Masonry before he died. I'd like to believe that he did, but who knows whether he actually did. That would be like trying to figure out whether Joseph was the one who started polygamy in the Church. I personally believe he did, and had much in common with King Solomon. But I can't say for sure.

[Alexander]

I was just reading this on the LDS website, written by Kent Nielsen
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

"The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man. … he was once a man like us … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth. …”

“If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and … God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. … And where was there ever a father without first being a son? … If Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? …"

Long before our God began his creations, he dwelt on a mortal world like ours, one of the creations that his Father had created for him and his brethren."

Of course I've come across this belief before, but not often stated so clearly, especially these days. This makes it quite specific that our God is only one of a long lineage of Gods who all began as men and whose powers are more akin to a more highly evolved alien being than a divine creator.

This is not the way most Christians and Jews interpret the God of the scripture. I was raised (vaguely) Episcopalian and my mother's mother is Jewish, so I know that the God they worship is a Creator spirit. The First Cause. The maker of the universe and all things in it.

That doesn't make the LDS view wrong of course. I don't think it or suggest it. But it does raise the obvious question - if the God of the scriptures isn't the First Cause and didn't create the universe from nothing - what or who did?

Is there any teaching about that?

Apologies if the answers are obvious. I'm new, ok! Or msybe just a slow learner...

Infinite regression of Gods

"Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be?"

[nightlight]

Creation ex nihilo - creation out of nothing - is not a Mormon belief. Joseph Smith denied it. The Mormon view on creation is that God took unorganized matter and organized it. D&C 93:33 says that "The elements are eternal."

Joseph was a Mason. Masons worship Lucifer and know this at the higher degrees. These are the gods/elohim of Genesis chapter 1 and Abraham chapter 4. They cannot create matter ex nihilo like the LORD God/Jehovah Elohim of Genesis chapter 2.
viewtopic.php?p=1225473#p1225473

The elements are not eternal according 2 Peter 3, they melt/burn up.
2 Peter 3:10-12, The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. The heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat, the Earth also, the works shall be burned up. The heavens being on fire and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.

You think George Washington worshiped Satan?

I believe the Masons worship Lucifer, which is who Christians believe is satan (and rightly so, imo). Lucifer is just the alter ego of satan. He is the white tile, the light bearer in the masonic duality system, while Satan is the black tile-- the right hand path vs left hand path, white magick vs black magick, etc. The Baphomet points upward with its right hand, points downward with it left hand, with two finger salutes.

They believe Lucifer to be a Prometheus type, and that he brought forbidden knowledge to "help" mankind, and the prime creator God (Jehovah Elohim) was keeping Adam and Eve enslaved and imprisoned in the Garden of Eden, so he gave them knowledge to get kicked out into the dreary world and be "free."

That is what the masons worship, the quest for knowledge, they are forever seeking enlightenment, not realizing, or perhaps rejecting that real wisdom starts with the fear of the LORD. Ironically, that is in two places in the Book of Proverbs, chapter 1:7 and chapter 9:10...

Chap. 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Chap. 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.


...yet Solomon seemed to forget about everything he wrote in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, because he started writing grimores after he started practicing polygamy and marrying foreign wives in 1 Kings 11. I believe there is a picture of the Jupiter Talisman in one of the Keys of Solomon books where it has pics of sidgils of fallen angels. Solomon was the father of masonry imo, the original lord of the rings. He supposedly had this magick ring that he could control demons with that helped him build temples for his pagan wives.

George Washington was rumored to renouce Masonry before he died. I'd like to believe that he did, but who knows whether he actually did. That would be like trying to figure out whether Joseph was the one who started polygamy in the Church. I personally believe he did, and had much in common with King Solomon. But I can't say for sure.

Many good mason's died bleeding in the dirt because they believed Jesus wanted them to live free.

You don't understand what you are talking about.

George Washington understood that Freemasonry was co-opted by the Illuminati.... The original ideals were that the laborer was equal to the king.

[Alexander]

That doesn't make the LDS view wrong of course. I don't think it or suggest it. But it does raise the obvious question - if the God of the scriptures isn't the First Cause and didn't create the universe from nothing - what or who did?

Creation ex nihilo - creation out of nothing - is not a Mormon belief. Joseph Smith denied it. The Mormon view on creation is that God took unorganized matter and organized it. D&C 93:33 says that "The elements are eternal."

Surely joseph is talking from the perspective of his non-creator God who was once a man, for whom the origin of the universe would be as much a mystery as it is to us. He would simply have been born into it as we are. The elements are eternal to the LDS God, as they are to us, his children.

But that doesn't mean we don't need an origin story. Something, some First Cause beyond time and space must have created the elements, created dimensions, including the dimension of time, and including the first man who became a God.

What do we call this ultimate Creator?

If human agency is real, as Christianity requires it must be; then creation cannot be ex-nihilo. For human agency to come out of creation - human agency must have gone into creation. I posit that a free agent is by its nature an uncaused cause; Man, as a free agent, opted to become generated by God into the light.

Intelligence and element must be eternal. There is no such thing as the "First Cause".

[Peeps]

Joseph was a Mason. Masons worship Lucifer and know this at the higher degrees. These are the gods/elohim of Genesis chapter 1 and Abraham chapter 4. They cannot create matter ex nihilo like the LORD God/Jehovah Elohim of Genesis chapter 2.
viewtopic.php?p=1225473#p1225473

The elements are not eternal according 2 Peter 3, they melt/burn up.
2 Peter 3:10-12, The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. The heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat, the Earth also, the works shall be burned up. The heavens being on fire and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.

You think George Washington worshiped Satan?

I believe the Masons worship Lucifer, which is who Christians believe is satan (and rightly so, imo). Lucifer is just the alter ego of satan. He is the white tile, the light bearer in the masonic duality system, while Satan is the black tile-- the right hand path vs left hand path, white magick vs black magick, etc. The Baphomet points upward with its right hand, points downward with it left hand, with two finger salutes.

They believe Lucifer to be a Prometheus type, and that he brought forbidden knowledge to "help" mankind, and the prime creator God (Jehovah Elohim) was keeping Adam and Eve enslaved and imprisoned in the Garden of Eden, so he gave them knowledge to get kicked out into the dreary world and be "free."

That is what the masons worship, the quest for knowledge, they are forever seeking enlightenment, not realizing, or perhaps rejecting that real wisdom starts with the fear of the LORD. Ironically, that is in two places in the Book of Proverbs, chapter 1:7 and chapter 9:10...

Chap. 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Chap. 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.


...yet Solomon seemed to forget about everything he wrote in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, because he started writing grimores after he started practicing polygamy and marrying foreign wives in 1 Kings 11. I believe there is a picture of the Jupiter Talisman in one of the Keys of Solomon books where it has pics of sidgils of fallen angels. Solomon was the father of masonry imo, the original lord of the rings. He supposedly had this magick ring that he could control demons with that helped him build temples for his pagan wives.

George Washington was rumored to renouce Masonry before he died. I'd like to believe that he did, but who knows whether he actually did. That would be like trying to figure out whether Joseph was the one who started polygamy in the Church. I personally believe he did, and had much in common with King Solomon. But I can't say for sure.

Many good mason's died bleeding in the dirt because they believed Jesus wanted them to live free.

You don't understand what you are talking about.

George Washington understood that Freemasonry was co-opted by the Illuminati.... The original ideals were that the laborer was equal to the king.

Thank you for making the point about the illuminati co-opting Freemasonry, and George Washington observing this. King Solomon was the inspiration for the Illuminati then, and his building temples for his wives' pagan dieties is how it got mixed up with being for a trade guild. Have the Masons ever broke free from them? If not, they are just another secret combination fraternal order now days, doing the grunt work for the New World Order.

[simpleton]

God has never revealed to man everything, we may demand to know about a beginning, but we do not and have not received that knowledge, actually we are dumb as a post as compared to even the knowledge there is of this earth. But one of the explanations givin is that God and eternity is "one eternal round". And also Joseph compared it to a ring or a band, cut it, and you have a beginning and an end, but God is one eternal round, but again, man is not givin that knowledge. We do not even believe the little knowledge He has givin us, we would rather run after the "Man descended from apes" theory.
We are taught there is no beginning, personally, I sleep just fine at night even with that incomprensible thought mingling in my head sometimes.

"And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease.

5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth."
Good enough for me.

Do this math:

And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever;

31 And thou hast taken Zion to thine own bosom, from all thy creations, from all eternity to all eternity; and naught but peace, justice, and truth is the habitation of thy throne; and mercy shall go before thy face and have no end; how is it thou canst weep?

[mike_rumble]

I do not believe in a god who was once a man. And I do not believe in a god who is just one in an infinite line of gods. For me God the Father, is self-existent and does not require a creator above him. The account in Genesis has to do with the creation our present planetary surface and our present human race. It does not address the creation of the whole universe. If you have to have a beginning, then in the very beginning there was only God the Father, who created the universe out of himself, not out of nothing. The Logos, the Word, the Son proceeded out of the Father and is His exact image, equal in every way to the Father. The Holy Spirit (Ghost) is, as Joseph Smith taught in the Lectures on Faith, the mind and the power of God. In regard to the current idea of God in LDS circles, I would paraphrase Bill Murray in the movie "Groundhog Day", where he says, "I said I am a god, not that I am the god". If you want to worship a lesser god rather than the true God, feel free to do so, but you're aiming really low at the meaning of life.

[Niemand]

That doesn't make the LDS view wrong of course. I don't think it or suggest it. But it does raise the obvious question - if the God of the scriptures isn't the First Cause and didn't create the universe from nothing - what or who did?

Creation ex nihilo - creation out of nothing - is not a Mormon belief. Joseph Smith denied it. The Mormon view on creation is that God took unorganized matter and organized it. D&C 93:33 says that "The elements are eternal."

Joseph was a Mason. Masons worship Lucifer and know this at the higher degrees. These are the gods/elohim of Genesis chapter 1 and Abraham chapter 4. They cannot create matter ex nihilo like the LORD God/Jehovah Elohim of Genesis chapter 2.
viewtopic.php?p=1225473#p1225473

The elements are not eternal according 2 Peter 3, they melt/burn up.
2 Peter 3:10-12, The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. The heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat, the Earth also, the works shall be burned up. The heavens being on fire and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.

The problem with "the elements are eternal" Is that it takes us back to "all the way down". It isn't really creation, it's reorganisation and tells us nothing where this eternal stuff comes from.

First off, people two thousand years ago had no concept of elements in the modern sense.

2 Peter 3 10-12, let's see what we can dig out of the Greek:

ἥξει δὲ ἡμέρα κυρίου ὡς κλέπτης, ἐν ᾗ οἱ οὐρανοὶ ῥοιζηδὸν παρελεύσονται, στοιχεῖα δὲ καυσούμενα λυθήσεται, καὶ γῆ καὶ τὰ ἐν αὐτῇ ἔργα εὑρεθήσεται

τούτων οὕτως πάντων λυομένων ποταποὺς δεῖ ὑπάρχειν ὑμᾶς ἐν ἁγίαις ἀναστροφαῖς καὶ εὐσεβείαις,

προσδοκῶντας καὶ σπεύδοντας τὴν παρουσίαν τῆς τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμέρας, δι᾽ ἣν οὐρανοὶ πυρούμενοι λυθήσονται καὶ στοιχεῖα καυσούμενα τήκεται.

https://biblehub.com/greek/stoicheia_4747.htm

Turns out στοιχεῖα (singular στοιχεῖον) is translated in different ways according to context:
Galatians 4:3 N-ANP
GRK: ὑπὸ τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου
NAS: under the elemental things of the world.
KJV: under the elements of the world:
INT: under the basic principles of the world

Galatians 4:9 N-ANP
GRK: καὶ πτωχὰ στοιχεῖα οἷς πάλιν
NAS: and worthless elemental things, to which
KJV: beggarly elements, whereunto
INT: and beggarly principles to which again

Colossians 2:8 N-ANP
GRK: κατὰ τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου
NAS: according to the elementary principles of the world,
KJV: after the rudiments of the world,
INT: according to the principles of the world

Hebrews 5:12 N-NNP
GRK: τινὰ τὰ στοιχεῖα τῆς ἀρχῆς
NAS: to teach you the elementary principles
KJV: [be] the first principles of the oracles
INT: what [are] the principles of the beginning

Here it claims the word can mean a letter of the alphabet:
https://biblehub.com/greek/4747.htm

It seems to be from a root suggesting things that stand in a row.

If we look it up there are a number of meanings including letters of the alphabet, heavenly bodies, basic principles, constituents, fundamental parts, things in order.

The same word pops up in the Apocrypha:

Wisdom of Solomon 7:17
“For he hath given me certain knowledge of the things that are, namely, to know how the world was made, and the operation of the elements:”

In chapter 19 of Wisdom of Solomon it seems to be tied up to the old school elements, i.e. earth, wind, fire & water.

4 Maccabees 12:13 - As a man, were you not ashamed, you most savage beast, to cut out the tongues of men who have feelings like yours and are made of the same elements as you, and to maltreat and torture them in this way?

[Original_Intent]

I like most of what OI stated above, but I don't believe we ever give up our identity. I don't think we were yet gods, but we are celestial beings, children of god, on a path to being gods, all will eventually be gods, but it requires purging the attributes and attitudes that keep us from desiring to be honest and fair. I think as we progress we get more powerful bodies, with more appetites and desires but are able to control them (opposite of eastern philosophies). I don't think the dimensional thing is real, time continues forward, but I do believe we don't understand the infinite. Not all in the universe is god's only that which flows unto him without compulsory means, nothing is compelled, so it takes time. The intelligences that become hungry for life eventually become children of god, like us, and end up on this trip we are on now, purging or weaknesses. I personally don't think we can be perfect, like god alone and that is why we have eternal partners, three legged stool vs. one legged one, etc... IMO

I also said (I thought) that becoming One does not entail giving up our identity.