Prophets do not speak for God falsely

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EvanLM
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Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by EvanLM »

Liahona wrote: February 8th, 2022, 6:13 am
endlessismyname wrote: February 7th, 2022, 6:55 am
Liahona wrote: February 7th, 2022, 6:01 am
Trucker wrote: February 6th, 2022, 6:39 pm The recent Church News article titled "What Latter-day Saints get wrong about living prophets, according to Keith A. Erekson" has caused a stir about the church and prophetic leadership. After repeated messaging from the church about the importance of "following the Prophet" and how he won't lead us astray, we get this latest article from the Church that not only tries to back-pedal infallibility of the prophet, but blames the members for having such ideas. As if the poor leaders have for so long tried to reign in the members' rampant expectations of the living prophet on the earth. It's the members' fault.

Something is going on here. Something has changed. Elder Renlund recently talked about the church's decision on the covid vaccine saying, "What I can tell you about this letter, as it was discussed by the first presidency and quorum of the twelve, is that it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us to send that letter. If you were to go to [the handbook]. Whether or not someone is vaccinated is not a temple recommend question, and it shouldn't be a point of contention. Read that section of the handbook, and then follow that."

So now taking the vaccine is a personal decision, and it should not cause contention among the members whether someone is vaccinated or not. We shouldn't judge anyone...not now. We were supposed to before. It used to be that to be "good global citizens" and be good members, faithfully following the prophet, meant that we get vaccinated. But now we shouldn't judge. The backpedalling, and the gaslighting, have begun.

The Church News article blames the members for expecting too much from their Prophet.



Errors in your own thinking are the real problem, he claims.



So here we see the excuses starting to be made that Prophets sometimes might just be following their "culture." So forget eternal principles. Forget an unchanging God. If we don't like something a prophet did, we can blame their "culture."



This is quite bold. Does that include the current Prophet? The 12, who are "prophets, seers and revelators" Do we now believe they make mistakes?



Tricked? Was Eve "tricked" in the Garden of Eden? What's the word we usually use in the church?....deceived. Tricked is when someone steals your camera on vacation that you ask to take your picture. Tricked is when you fall for a scammer on the phone. Tricked is not when you claim to speak the mind and will of the Lord to the church. If you get that wrong, that's not being tricked. That's being deceived.



So now we have a new concept of "lead astray." It only means away from God. It's doesn't mean we could be lead astray for other things, like the truth, like pure doctrine, like safety. With this definition, the prophet could lead us astray and cause us harm, even death, but as long as it's not away from God, he still is not leading us astray.

Singing a different tune

When vaccines became available, the church was clear on its stance. There was no misunderstanding that the church, leaders, and the prophet himself considered the vaccines "safe and effective" and that every member in the entire world should get them.



https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... ugust-2021

The covid vaccines have never, to this day, been proven safe and effective. Someone may believe that or observe that, but it has not been proven. The vaccines also do not limit the spread of covid. It also is not true that the vaccines are the only way to protect against the disease. Note there is no mention of treatment or prevention, except the vaccines. The First Presidency also tells the members to follow the "wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."

All the General Authorities, the 12, and the First Presidency and their wives got the covid vaccinations. President Nelson called the vaccine a "literal godsend."


https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... nes-222014

Also,
The mind and will of the Lord

This was not just a policy decision the prophet and church leaders made. This was the result or earnest prayer that reveled the mind and will of the Lord through the spirit.

Elder Renlund recently said about the First Presidency letter about covid vaccines,



https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bro ... 1?lang=eng

If our church leaders told us the Lord's will regarding covid vaccines, and if they officially announced to all the members...and then were wrong....that's not being tricked. That's falsely declaring the mind and will of the Lord. That's much worse than being tricked. That's blasphemy. You can be wrong about where to build a meetinghouse, or how to invest funds, or what financial policy to enact. But you can't be wrong about declaring the mind and will of the Lord to the people. That is not something to ignore or sweep under the rug, or blame the members for having too high of expectations.


Elder Rasband reiterated the importance of following the prophet regarding covid vaccines:



skip to 6:34
timemarked link: https://youtu.be/OtpmD0qp6rg?t=394


The First Presidency sent another official letter to the church, urging members to get the vaccine:



https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... sks-letter


The First Presidency made a policy that only vaccinated missionaries could go to the MTC in person and that unvaccinated missionaries had to serve in their own countries:



https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... 19-vaccine

Now missionaries must also receive a booster to go to the MTC or stay in foreign countries:



The church does not allow religious exemptions from members seeking them for work or school:



https://www.deseret.com/2021/9/23/22688 ... -exemption

It's clear that the church, and the prophet, are very much in support of covid vaccination. The prophet says they are safe and effective, that they are a literal godsend, that all missionaries must have them to go anywhere but their home countries, that no member can get a religious exemption...and that the Holy Ghost has indicated this is the mind and will of the Lord.

But...that still isn't enough to get members to comply. D&C 121 is pretty clear on what the proper ways to lead and motivate are. Persuasion, long-suffering, reason, not manipulating, guilt-tripping, gaslighting, or any form of unrighteous dominion. Using any manipulative tactics to get people to do what you want is wrong, as is using any manipulative tactic to cover your sins or gratify your pride. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 1?lang=eng

Yet, from church leaders, we are told to good and faithful members are the ones that follow the prophet and get vaccinated. President Eyring of BYU-Idaho, the son of President Eyring in the First Presidency of the church, said this at a devotional at BYU-Idaho:



https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-fa ... les-239584

The church owned Deseret News has had several articles trying to get Utahns to comply:



https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/202 ... 19-vaccine




https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2021/8/ ... t-symptoms




https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/7/15/ ... 9-vaccines




https://www.deseret.com/2021/7/24/22589 ... vaccinated


Former physicians

Remember that President Nelson was a well-respected cardiologist. As was Elder Renlund (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng). President Nelson reminded us of his career in a church video released during the pandemic.


So at least 2 members of the top 15 leaders of the church, who are sustained as prophets, were not only physicians, but cardiologists. With the recent increase of heart problem in vaccinated people, these two men ought to be the most qualified to detect if there were a problem with the vaccines. They should be able to read the literature, understand the studies, and be aware of complications. But they weren't. They were completely supportive of the vaccines. Why would two highly skilled men in the medical field get vaccine risks more wrong than an uneducated, low-IQ Joe Schmoe on Facebook? How did they get it wrong, but regular people get it right? And even aside from being prophets, how does that happen?

Now the leaders are backpedaling. Although many of them made polished videos and gave prepared talks about the vaccines, and testified that they were lead by the Holy Ghost to make these vaccine policies....now they send out a lowly church historian to try to convince the members that they had the wrong idea all along about prophets. They don't even have the courage to do the backpedaling themselves. They make others do the gaslighting.

This is a serious situation. Many people have been injured by the vaccines, and many more will likely manifest problems. But beyond that, it's extremely serious that President Nelson, the Apostles of the Lord, and other church leaders have claimed to have spoken the mind and will of the Lord and were wrong. And tried to get members to comply using various means, including implying members are not faithful if they don't get vaccinated. This is very bad, very damaging to the church. This will destroy faith in a lot of members. And it doesn't speak well to the prophets being able to receive and proclaim the will of God, but in fact...someone of something else. We should not just let this slide or brush it off.
Please show me the evidence where "many" have been injured by the vaccines and evidence that "many more" will manifest problems?

Stating that the vaccine isn't effective when it has been shown to is also disingenuous. That's gaslighting and ignorant of several studies that have shown its effectiveness. Church leadership is also not implying members are not faithful if they don't get vaccinated. Urging church membership to get the vaccine is not the same as forcing.
Quit trying to get others to do the work you ought to be doing. The evidence is readily available, YOU go find it.

The vaccine is NOT effective, unless you are willing to accept the new “definitions” of “vaccine” and “effective” foisted upon you by evil and conspiring men.

Finally, church leadership have done much more than “urge” people. In addition to their fallacious arguments they have stepped outside the scriptural forms of Christ-like persuasion we are told to engage in and have gone so far as to create discriminatory policies that have stifled the work of salvation on both sides of the veil.

The time for humoring arguments such as yours has past, Liahona. And no one here is responsible for doing your research for you.
It's not a matter of definitions. It's a matter of demonstratable scientifically proven outcome. There are statistical differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated groups in infection, hospitalization, and deaths. Period.

Stating that vaccines are not effective when the math and outcomes show they are IS gaslighting.

Stating that church leadership is going beyond urging when they are not IS gaslighting. I am not aware of any vaccine requirement to enter a temple.

the workers in the omaha neb temple were asked toxbe vaxed last year

EvanLM
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Posts: 4798

Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by EvanLM »

rules for the temples have varied according to the regional reps . . .who take orders from the twelve. . . .who take orders from the prophet . . . . these differences inadministration show what reg reps follow everything the prophet says and who don't . . . probably 50/50 like the membership . . .

lived in three states since this started. . . three different temple districts. . . where is your support for the comments that you make?

Lizzy60
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Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by Lizzy60 »

Liahona said, “ It's not a matter of definitions. It's a matter of demonstratable scientifically proven outcome. There are statistical differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated groups in infection, hospitalization, and deaths. Period.”

Yes! Absolutely 100% correct. The vaccinated are more infected, more often hospitalized (for myriads of illnesses) and are dying in greater numbers than the unvaccinated. The statistics compare rates per 100,000 people, not just raw data.

https://www.hagmannreport.com/psychopat ... -2-7-2022/

This is worth the spent for anyone who does not realize that we are watching a global catastrophe in real time. Worldwide eugenics program.

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BuriedTartaria
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Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by BuriedTartaria »

Trucker wrote: February 6th, 2022, 6:39 pm
The Church News article blames the members for expecting too much from their Prophet.
This past Sunday, I had the honor of having home sacrament and fellowship with people awake to the truth of the Book of Mormon and the lies of the LDS leaders and someone in this group said President Nelson's "safe and effective" statement about the covid vaccine will be a damning statement against the prophetic claims of the SLC-Mormon church moving forward. Even if you aren't all in on thinking the vaccines are as dangerous as some circles of anti-covid vaxxers think, those vaccines are clearly not effective. They just aren't effective at all.


LDS leaders and True Blue Mormons, you know you are lurking here and reading. God doesn't speak to the 15 leaders of the LDS church so they rely on investigations, corporate research and member surveys to attempt to understand the views of the body of their church. Your narrative that if the Book of Mormon is true, then the LDS church has to be true, it's a lie and it's disappearing.

Covid has been a profound awakening to how naked the emperor is in the LDS church. I got NOTHING from you, that I couldn't get from watching dying establishment news, which pumps out material to keep people asleep and slowly walking into bondage.

You leaders have distanced yourself from Joseph Smith. You have publicly shown that at least as recently as the 80s you and establishment historians have believed in fake documents alleging to be true history about Joseph (the Salamander Letters) and I don't think your belief in fake history surrounding Joseph Smith began or ended with that incident.

You guys are done. You made your covenant with death. You made your hundreds of billions. You never saw God. You lied to sincerely good people. You built up secret combinations. You will continue to make concessions to the world and become a hollower corporation completely devoid of prophetic fruits

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BroJones
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Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by BroJones »

The Red Pill wrote: February 7th, 2022, 5:56 pm
Liahona wrote: February 7th, 2022, 6:01 am
Trucker wrote: February 6th, 2022, 6:39 pm The recent Church News article titled "What Latter-day Saints get wrong about living prophets, according to Keith A. Erekson" has caused a stir about the church and prophetic leadership. After repeated messaging from the church about the importance of "following the Prophet" and how he won't lead us astray, we get this latest article from the Church that not only tries to back-pedal infallibility of the prophet, but blames the members for having such ideas. As if the poor leaders have for so long tried to reign in the members' rampant expectations of the living prophet on the earth. It's the members' fault.

Something is going on here. Something has changed. Elder Renlund recently talked about the church's decision on the covid vaccine saying, "What I can tell you about this letter, as it was discussed by the first presidency and quorum of the twelve, is that it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us to send that letter. If you were to go to [the handbook]. Whether or not someone is vaccinated is not a temple recommend question, and it shouldn't be a point of contention. Read that section of the handbook, and then follow that."

So now taking the vaccine is a personal decision, and it should not cause contention among the members whether someone is vaccinated or not. We shouldn't judge anyone...not now. We were supposed to before. It used to be that to be "good global citizens" and be good members, faithfully following the prophet, meant that we get vaccinated. But now we shouldn't judge. The backpedalling, and the gaslighting, have begun.

The Church News article blames the members for expecting too much from their Prophet.
"Erekson asked his listeners what expectations they might have about prophets, how those expectations might be influenced by their upbringing and culture, and if they are assuming things that are incorrect. “Admitting the errors in our own thinking is sometimes the most difficult part of understanding Church history because it takes humility to change our expectations and assumptions after we learn they are incorrect.”"
Errors in your own thinking are the real problem, he claims.
"If prophets speak too clearly in favor of vaccination, or if they fail to stand with or against the internet’s outrage of the day, or if they offer kindness instead of criticism of refugees, some turn away in rage like Naaman,” Erekson said."
...
"Every human is shaped by the language, customs, knowledge and experiences of individuals, families and societies, making it impossible for anyone — including prophets — to not be influenced by culture. "
So here we see the excuses starting to be made that Prophets sometimes might just be following their "culture." So forget eternal principles. Forget an unchanging God. If we don't like something a prophet did, we can blame their "culture."
"Prophets make mistakes and they disagree. In extreme cases, their differing perspectives can lead to disputes."
This is quite bold. Does that include the current Prophet? The 12, who are "prophets, seers and revelators" Do we now believe they make mistakes?
“We should also not expect that prophets do not get tricked,” Erekson said.
Tricked? Was Eve "tricked" in the Garden of Eden? What's the word we usually use in the church?....deceived. Tricked is when someone steals your camera on vacation that you ask to take your picture. Tricked is when you fall for a scammer on the phone. Tricked is not when you claim to speak the mind and will of the Lord to the church. If you get that wrong, that's not being tricked. That's being deceived.
“In its complete original context, Wilford Woodruff’s teaching emphasized that the prophet would not … lead people ‘astray from the oracles [or revelations] of God and from their duty.’ Prophets will not lead us away from their true witness of Jesus Christ, from His revelations or from the path, however hard it may be, to follow Him.
So now we have a new concept of "lead astray." It only means away from God. It's doesn't mean we could be lead astray for other things, like the truth, like pure doctrine, like safety. With this definition, the prophet could lead us astray and cause us harm, even death, but as long as it's not away from God, he still is not leading us astray.

Singing a different tune

When vaccines became available, the church was clear on its stance. There was no misunderstanding that the church, leaders, and the prophet himself considered the vaccines "safe and effective" and that every member in the entire world should get them.
The First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sent the following message on Thursday, August 12, 2021, to Church members around the world:

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

We find ourselves fighting a war against the ravages of COVID-19 and its variants, an unrelenting pandemic. We want to do all we can to limit the spread of these viruses. We know that protection from the diseases they cause can only be achieved by immunizing a very high percentage of the population.

To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective.

We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders. Please know of our sincere love and great concern for all of God’s children.

The First Presidency

Russell M. Nelson
Dallin H. Oaks
Henry B. Eyring
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... ugust-2021

The covid vaccines have never, to this day, been proven safe and effective. Someone may believe that or observe that, but it has not been proven. The vaccines also do not limit the spread of covid. It also is not true that the vaccines are the only way to protect against the disease. Note there is no mention of treatment or prevention, except the vaccines. The First Presidency also tells the members to follow the "wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."

All the General Authorities, the 12, and the First Presidency and their wives got the covid vaccinations. President Nelson called the vaccine a "literal godsend."
"In January, President Nelson and other senior Church leaders were vaccinated. He explained the process of counseling with his wife and physician prior to receiving the vaccine and encouraged others to do likewise.

“We have prayed often for this literal godsend,” he said in his post on Facebook.(https://www.facebook.com/russell.m.nels ... 7088328034)

Before his call to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, President Nelson’s profession was as a physician and pioneering heart surgeon.

In the same Facebook post, President Nelson shared that the Church has contributed to vaccination efforts for decades.

In April’s general conference, President Nelson said to members of the Church, “Do all you can to bring COVID numbers down in your area so that your temple opportunities can increase.”

That same month, young missionaries in the United States received notice that they must be vaccinated against COVID-19 in order to travel to a mission outside their home country.

The Church also announced in April that it would support the global organization UNICEF through Latter-day Saint Charities, the humanitarian aid arm of the Church, with a $20 million grant to help distribute 2 billion COVID-19 vaccinations in 121 countries and territories."
https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... nes-222014

Also,
The mind and will of the Lord

This was not just a policy decision the prophet and church leaders made. This was the result or earnest prayer that reveled the mind and will of the Lord through the spirit.

Elder Renlund recently said about the First Presidency letter about covid vaccines,
"What I can tell you about this letter, as it was discussed by the first presidency and quorum of the twelve, is that it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us to send that letter."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bro ... 1?lang=eng

If our church leaders told us the Lord's will regarding covid vaccines, and if they officially announced to all the members...and then were wrong....that's not being tricked. That's falsely declaring the mind and will of the Lord. That's much worse than being tricked. That's blasphemy. You can be wrong about where to build a meetinghouse, or how to invest funds, or what financial policy to enact. But you can't be wrong about declaring the mind and will of the Lord to the people. That is not something to ignore or sweep under the rug, or blame the members for having too high of expectations.


Elder Rasband reiterated the importance of following the prophet regarding covid vaccines:
"We have prayed that we would have a vaccine...to allow the church to gather Israel on both sides of the veil."

"The prophet and others have prayerfully considered this, that a vaccine is actually a godsend from heaven. And we viewed it that way, as a miracle."

"We have the added benefit to have prophet of God on the earth. The prophet of God is, candidly, authorized to speak for the Lord Jesus Christ."

"This was an announce made by the First Presidency, August 12th, 2021, and I like this, to church members all around the world. This was not made for the church in Utah, or the church in the United States. This announcement from the First Presidency was for the world church."
...
"If I had to choose freely, with my own agency, between a leader of some other persuasion or the prophet of God, I would recommend to follow God's holy Prophet."

Last conference talk "I gave "Things of my soul" points 1 through 7, ... my point 7 was "follow God's living prophet."

"To me the Prophets words supersedes the words [of others]"
skip to 6:34
timemarked link: https://youtu.be/OtpmD0qp6rg?t=394


The First Presidency sent another official letter to the church, urging members to get the vaccine:
On September 22, 2021, the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sent this letter to Church leaders around the world. The letter is also available in French, German, Italian, Japanese, Portuguese, Spanish and Russian.

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

We are grateful that in recent months, some level of ordinance work has resumed in every temple. Our desire is to keep temples open.

As cases of COVID-19 increase in many areas, we want to do everything possible to allow temples to remain open. Therefore, effective immediately, all temple patrons and workers are asked to wear face masks at all times while in the temple. These safety protocols are temporary, based on COVID-19 conditions, and will be rescinded as soon as circumstances permit.

Our urging Church members to be vaccinated and to protect themselves and others from the spread of disease has precedent. Prior First Presidencies shared similar messages in 1900 about smallpox and in 1957 regarding polio. Please do all you can to protect yourself and others so the work of the Lord on both sides of the veil can move forward.

Sincerely yours,

Russell M. Nelson
Dallin H. Oaks
Henry B. Eyring
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... sks-letter


The First Presidency made a policy that only vaccinated missionaries could go to the MTC in person and that unvaccinated missionaries had to serve in their own countries:
Church Encourages Missionaries to Receive a COVID-19 Vaccine

Young missionaries in the United States who will travel to a mission outside their home country should be vaccinated before traveling.
...
Missionaries who choose not to receive the required immunizations, which will now include the COVID-19 vaccination, will be assigned to a mission in their home country in accordance with long-standing existing Church policies.
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... 19-vaccine

Now missionaries must also receive a booster to go to the MTC or stay in foreign countries:
"Beginning on February 14, 2022, missionaries will need to get a COVID-19 booster, if it is available in their home country and they qualify to receive it, to attend a missionary training center or to travel outside their home country. If eligible, missionaries should receive the booster at least 14 days before traveling. If missionaries choose not to be vaccinated, they will receive home MTC training and be assigned to their home country.

In-field missionaries are encouraged to receive a vaccine recommended in their home country if they qualify to receive it and if it is available in the country where they are serving. Mission leaders should work to help make the booster available to missionaries.

We continue to recommend that missionaries be fully vaccinated, including the COVID-19 vaccine booster where available.

Missionaries should update their vaccination record in the Missionary Portal when they receive a new vaccination."
The church does not allow religious exemptions from members seeking them for work or school:
Latter-day Saints cannot obtain a vaccine exemption from a church leader

Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not issue religious exemptions to members who want to be excused from COVID-19 vaccine mandates, church spokesmen confirmed this week.
https://www.deseret.com/2021/9/23/22688 ... -exemption

It's clear that the church, and the prophet, are very much in support of covid vaccination. The prophet says they are safe and effective, that they are a literal godsend, that all missionaries must have them to go anywhere but their home countries, that no member can get a religious exemption...and that the Holy Ghost has indicated this is the mind and will of the Lord.

But...that still isn't enough to get members to comply. D&C 121 is pretty clear on what the proper ways to lead and motivate are. Persuasion, long-suffering, reason, not manipulating, guilt-tripping, gaslighting, or any form of unrighteous dominion. Using any manipulative tactics to get people to do what you want is wrong, as is using any manipulative tactic to cover your sins or gratify your pride. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 1?lang=eng

Yet, from church leaders, we are told to good and faithful members are the ones that follow the prophet and get vaccinated. President Eyring of BYU-Idaho, the son of President Eyring in the First Presidency of the church, said this at a devotional at BYU-Idaho:
“Recently many of us have given deep thought to issues of honor, due to the COVID-19 pandemic.”
...
The vast majority of the university’s students and employees have voluntarily gotten two or more shots. “Their personal choices have, collectively, allowed us to gather face to face again.”
...
President Eyring expressed his gratitude for collective precautions, recent medical advances and the charge from the First Presidency to “use face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible” to limit exposure to the viruses.
......
In addition to government officials and medical professionals, people can look to the leaders of the Church at this time, as always, he said, and repeated the words of members of the First Presidency: “We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders.”

"In the process of working together to “thread the needle of public safety and private preferences,” it is important to resist the impulse to contend in public or private settings. “Each of us is biased and under-informed in ways that can be easy to overlook,” President Eyring said. "
...
"“The greatest sacrifice for honor was our Savior’s bravery in confronting the Jewish scribes and Pharisees,” President Eyring said. “He surely knew that His charges against them, whom He justifiably called hypocrites, would lead to their seeking His death. But His honor and the mission given by His Father in Heaven required Him to stand firm, knowing the consequences.”

New tests of honor exist today, the modern-day equivalent of Old Testament burnt offerings and other sacrifices. COVID-19 appears to be “testing our resolve to follow the guidance of governmental and Church authorities.”

Rather than seeing an unfair intrusion on freedom, President Eyring instead encouraged listeners to “embrace the trials, tests and potential victories to be had.”
https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-fa ... les-239584

The church owned Deseret News has had several articles trying to get Utahns to comply:
Former skeptic has a message for Utahns who think they don’t need the COVID-19 vaccine

"The experience was also a sobering reminder of the need for COVID-19 vaccinations. Breakthrough cases of the virus are almost always mild in people who are fully vaccinated, meaning it’s been two weeks or more since their final dose.

An emergency room doctor made that clear during one of his visits over the July 4th holiday weekend.

“He said, ‘Well, you’ve got a really bad case here. You should have been vaccinated. I hope you didn’t get anybody else sick.’ That made me feel pretty bad,” Hartle said. He’d already contacted the patients and others, including church members, he’d seen before testing positive for COVID-19. None became ill, Hartle said."
https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/202 ... 19-vaccine

The awful regrets of those who refused COVID-19 vaccinations

The nation has been focused on some Utahns’ reluctance to become immunized against the coronavirus. This is a life-threatening embarrassment
By The Deseret News Editorial Board

This is a surge that was entirely preventable. Vaccines are free, plentiful and scientifically proven to be effective. The refusal by so many Utahns to get them is, indeed, a cause of great regret. Please, get the vaccine, for yourself and for your neighbor.
https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2021/8/ ... t-symptoms

Gov. Cox more optimistic about Utahns getting COVID-19 shots as stories are shared
Governor warns opposition to the vaccine is ‘literally killing’ people

State in ‘hand-to-hand combat’ phase of vaccinations

The governor, though, suggested nothing’s changed when asked about how Utah will confront the vaccine hesitant.

“The plans are just to continue to get people vaccinated. I mean, those are the plans,” he said. “Again, that’s the only answer. Vaccines work better than masks, the vaccines work better than social distancing. Vaccines just work and they allow us to do all the other things we want to do. We are absolutely continuing with our efforts.”

That means working closely with business, faith and community leaders, as well as health care providers as Utah’s vaccination program moves away from mass clinics to what Cox described as “hand-to-hand combat, where we have to have conversations with people” that can take hours, days or even weeks.

“That’s slow going, but every one of those vaccinations is a potential life saved,” the governor said.

Although many states are offering residents incentives to get vaccinated, such as Ohio’s “Vax-a-Million” lottery with drawings for $1 million prizes or full-ride college scholarships, Cox said Utah “hasn’t made any additional progress on that.”
https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/7/15/ ... 9-vaccines

Yes, you can be a strong conservative and still get vaccinated

Here’s the truth: You can oppose mandatory vaccinations and still get vaccinated

My wife and I got vaccinated for COVID-19 as soon as our age group was allowed. I strongly recommend that everyone eligible for vaccination get it done ASAP. You might save yourself from sickness or death, and you won’t be transmitting the virus to family, friends or neighbors.

It is highly unfortunate that so many eligible people refuse the vaccination. Those who don’t want to be vaccinated tend to be in demographic groups – young people who think they’re invincible; minority and lower-income people who might not know the facts about the virus, and who might be distrustful; and some strong conservatives who, for almost ideological reasons, rebel against the “experts” and the politicians who are pressuring them to be vaccinated.

I can’t do much about the first two groups, but I do have some advice for the last group. After all, I’m a conservative. I don’t like shutdowns or mandates. But I do believe everyone eligible should voluntarily get the shot.

Here’s the truth: You can oppose mandatory vaccinations and still get vaccinated. You can oppose mask mandates and still get vaccinated. You can oppose vaccine passports and still get vaccinated. You can resent the preachy “experts” for issuing contradictory information and still get vaccinated.
https://www.deseret.com/2021/7/24/22589 ... vaccinated


Former physicians

Remember that President Nelson was a well-respected cardiologist. As was Elder Renlund (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng). President Nelson reminded us of his career in a church video released during the pandemic.
"As a doctor I know the value of good therapy"
...
"Prior to my ministry, I was a cardiovascular and thoracic surgeon, and spent many hours in operating rooms."
...
"As a man of science and as a man of faith, the current pandemic has been of great concern to me."
...
"As a man of science, I appreciate the critical need to prenvent the spread of infection."
...
"As a man of faith, however, I view the current pandemic as only one of the many ills that plague our world, including hate, civil unrest, racism, violence, dishonesty, and lack of civlity."
"Skilled scientists and researchers are laboring diligently to develop and distrubute a vaccine against the coronavirus."
So at least 2 members of the top 15 leaders of the church, who are sustained as prophets, were not only physicians, but cardiologists. With the recent increase of heart problem in vaccinated people, these two men ought to be the most qualified to detect if there were a problem with the vaccines. They should be able to read the literature, understand the studies, and be aware of complications. But they weren't. They were completely supportive of the vaccines. Why would two highly skilled men in the medical field get vaccine risks more wrong than an uneducated, low-IQ Joe Schmoe on Facebook? How did they get it wrong, but regular people get it right? And even aside from being prophets, how does that happen?

Now the leaders are backpedaling. Although many of them made polished videos and gave prepared talks about the vaccines, and testified that they were lead by the Holy Ghost to make these vaccine policies....now they send out a lowly church historian to try to convince the members that they had the wrong idea all along about prophets. They don't even have the courage to do the backpedaling themselves. They make others do the gaslighting.

This is a serious situation. Many people have been injured by the vaccines, and many more will likely manifest problems. But beyond that, it's extremely serious that President Nelson, the Apostles of the Lord, and other church leaders have claimed to have spoken the mind and will of the Lord and were wrong. And tried to get members to comply using various means, including implying members are not faithful if they don't get vaccinated. This is very bad, very damaging to the church. This will destroy faith in a lot of members. And it doesn't speak well to the prophets being able to receive and proclaim the will of God, but in fact...someone of something else. We should not just let this slide or brush it off.
Please show me the evidence where "many" have been injured by the vaccines and evidence that "many more" will manifest problems?

Stating that the vaccine isn't effective when it has been shown to is also disingenuous. That's gaslighting and ignorant of several studies that have shown its effectiveness. Church leadership is also not implying members are not faithful if they don't get vaccinated. Urging church membership to get the vaccine is not the same as forcing.

This is ridiculous. So many people on this forum have posted so many links to hard evidence.

Is over 1,000,000 injuries and over 23,000 deaths enough for you?

https://vaersanalysis.info/2022/02/04/v ... 1-28-2022/

How about insurance companies nationwide reporting a 40% increase in deaths among 18-64 year olds since the jab rollout.

Notice that athletes seem to be dropping dead a lot more than ever before?

Not hard to follow the breadcrumbs...if you want to see them!
The data are becoming increasingly clear regarding the correlation between adverse effects (myocarditis, blood clots, etc.) and the Covid-vaxxes; here's another scientific view of recent data:
Dr. Chris Martenson, NZ data, vaxxing and total deaths correlation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVxmAIKjYM4

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by endlessQuestions »

Liahona wrote: February 8th, 2022, 6:13 am
endlessismyname wrote: February 7th, 2022, 6:55 am
Liahona wrote: February 7th, 2022, 6:01 am
Trucker wrote: February 6th, 2022, 6:39 pm The recent Church News article titled "What Latter-day Saints get wrong about living prophets, according to Keith A. Erekson" has caused a stir about the church and prophetic leadership. After repeated messaging from the church about the importance of "following the Prophet" and how he won't lead us astray, we get this latest article from the Church that not only tries to back-pedal infallibility of the prophet, but blames the members for having such ideas. As if the poor leaders have for so long tried to reign in the members' rampant expectations of the living prophet on the earth. It's the members' fault.

Something is going on here. Something has changed. Elder Renlund recently talked about the church's decision on the covid vaccine saying, "What I can tell you about this letter, as it was discussed by the first presidency and quorum of the twelve, is that it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us to send that letter. If you were to go to [the handbook]. Whether or not someone is vaccinated is not a temple recommend question, and it shouldn't be a point of contention. Read that section of the handbook, and then follow that."

So now taking the vaccine is a personal decision, and it should not cause contention among the members whether someone is vaccinated or not. We shouldn't judge anyone...not now. We were supposed to before. It used to be that to be "good global citizens" and be good members, faithfully following the prophet, meant that we get vaccinated. But now we shouldn't judge. The backpedalling, and the gaslighting, have begun.

The Church News article blames the members for expecting too much from their Prophet.



Errors in your own thinking are the real problem, he claims.



So here we see the excuses starting to be made that Prophets sometimes might just be following their "culture." So forget eternal principles. Forget an unchanging God. If we don't like something a prophet did, we can blame their "culture."



This is quite bold. Does that include the current Prophet? The 12, who are "prophets, seers and revelators" Do we now believe they make mistakes?



Tricked? Was Eve "tricked" in the Garden of Eden? What's the word we usually use in the church?....deceived. Tricked is when someone steals your camera on vacation that you ask to take your picture. Tricked is when you fall for a scammer on the phone. Tricked is not when you claim to speak the mind and will of the Lord to the church. If you get that wrong, that's not being tricked. That's being deceived.



So now we have a new concept of "lead astray." It only means away from God. It's doesn't mean we could be lead astray for other things, like the truth, like pure doctrine, like safety. With this definition, the prophet could lead us astray and cause us harm, even death, but as long as it's not away from God, he still is not leading us astray.

Singing a different tune

When vaccines became available, the church was clear on its stance. There was no misunderstanding that the church, leaders, and the prophet himself considered the vaccines "safe and effective" and that every member in the entire world should get them.



https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... ugust-2021

The covid vaccines have never, to this day, been proven safe and effective. Someone may believe that or observe that, but it has not been proven. The vaccines also do not limit the spread of covid. It also is not true that the vaccines are the only way to protect against the disease. Note there is no mention of treatment or prevention, except the vaccines. The First Presidency also tells the members to follow the "wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."

All the General Authorities, the 12, and the First Presidency and their wives got the covid vaccinations. President Nelson called the vaccine a "literal godsend."


https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... nes-222014

Also,
The mind and will of the Lord

This was not just a policy decision the prophet and church leaders made. This was the result or earnest prayer that reveled the mind and will of the Lord through the spirit.

Elder Renlund recently said about the First Presidency letter about covid vaccines,



https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bro ... 1?lang=eng

If our church leaders told us the Lord's will regarding covid vaccines, and if they officially announced to all the members...and then were wrong....that's not being tricked. That's falsely declaring the mind and will of the Lord. That's much worse than being tricked. That's blasphemy. You can be wrong about where to build a meetinghouse, or how to invest funds, or what financial policy to enact. But you can't be wrong about declaring the mind and will of the Lord to the people. That is not something to ignore or sweep under the rug, or blame the members for having too high of expectations.


Elder Rasband reiterated the importance of following the prophet regarding covid vaccines:



skip to 6:34
timemarked link: https://youtu.be/OtpmD0qp6rg?t=394


The First Presidency sent another official letter to the church, urging members to get the vaccine:



https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... sks-letter


The First Presidency made a policy that only vaccinated missionaries could go to the MTC in person and that unvaccinated missionaries had to serve in their own countries:



https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... 19-vaccine

Now missionaries must also receive a booster to go to the MTC or stay in foreign countries:



The church does not allow religious exemptions from members seeking them for work or school:



https://www.deseret.com/2021/9/23/22688 ... -exemption

It's clear that the church, and the prophet, are very much in support of covid vaccination. The prophet says they are safe and effective, that they are a literal godsend, that all missionaries must have them to go anywhere but their home countries, that no member can get a religious exemption...and that the Holy Ghost has indicated this is the mind and will of the Lord.

But...that still isn't enough to get members to comply. D&C 121 is pretty clear on what the proper ways to lead and motivate are. Persuasion, long-suffering, reason, not manipulating, guilt-tripping, gaslighting, or any form of unrighteous dominion. Using any manipulative tactics to get people to do what you want is wrong, as is using any manipulative tactic to cover your sins or gratify your pride. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 1?lang=eng

Yet, from church leaders, we are told to good and faithful members are the ones that follow the prophet and get vaccinated. President Eyring of BYU-Idaho, the son of President Eyring in the First Presidency of the church, said this at a devotional at BYU-Idaho:



https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-fa ... les-239584

The church owned Deseret News has had several articles trying to get Utahns to comply:



https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/202 ... 19-vaccine




https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2021/8/ ... t-symptoms




https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/7/15/ ... 9-vaccines




https://www.deseret.com/2021/7/24/22589 ... vaccinated


Former physicians

Remember that President Nelson was a well-respected cardiologist. As was Elder Renlund (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng). President Nelson reminded us of his career in a church video released during the pandemic.


So at least 2 members of the top 15 leaders of the church, who are sustained as prophets, were not only physicians, but cardiologists. With the recent increase of heart problem in vaccinated people, these two men ought to be the most qualified to detect if there were a problem with the vaccines. They should be able to read the literature, understand the studies, and be aware of complications. But they weren't. They were completely supportive of the vaccines. Why would two highly skilled men in the medical field get vaccine risks more wrong than an uneducated, low-IQ Joe Schmoe on Facebook? How did they get it wrong, but regular people get it right? And even aside from being prophets, how does that happen?

Now the leaders are backpedaling. Although many of them made polished videos and gave prepared talks about the vaccines, and testified that they were lead by the Holy Ghost to make these vaccine policies....now they send out a lowly church historian to try to convince the members that they had the wrong idea all along about prophets. They don't even have the courage to do the backpedaling themselves. They make others do the gaslighting.

This is a serious situation. Many people have been injured by the vaccines, and many more will likely manifest problems. But beyond that, it's extremely serious that President Nelson, the Apostles of the Lord, and other church leaders have claimed to have spoken the mind and will of the Lord and were wrong. And tried to get members to comply using various means, including implying members are not faithful if they don't get vaccinated. This is very bad, very damaging to the church. This will destroy faith in a lot of members. And it doesn't speak well to the prophets being able to receive and proclaim the will of God, but in fact...someone of something else. We should not just let this slide or brush it off.
Please show me the evidence where "many" have been injured by the vaccines and evidence that "many more" will manifest problems?

Stating that the vaccine isn't effective when it has been shown to is also disingenuous. That's gaslighting and ignorant of several studies that have shown its effectiveness. Church leadership is also not implying members are not faithful if they don't get vaccinated. Urging church membership to get the vaccine is not the same as forcing.
Quit trying to get others to do the work you ought to be doing. The evidence is readily available, YOU go find it.

The vaccine is NOT effective, unless you are willing to accept the new “definitions” of “vaccine” and “effective” foisted upon you by evil and conspiring men.

Finally, church leadership have done much more than “urge” people. In addition to their fallacious arguments they have stepped outside the scriptural forms of Christ-like persuasion we are told to engage in and have gone so far as to create discriminatory policies that have stifled the work of salvation on both sides of the veil.

The time for humoring arguments such as yours has past, Liahona. And no one here is responsible for doing your research for you.
It's not a matter of definitions. It's a matter of demonstratable scientifically proven outcome. There are statistical differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated groups in infection, hospitalization, and deaths. Period.

Stating that vaccines are not effective when the math and outcomes show they are IS gaslighting.

Stating that church leadership is going beyond urging when they are not IS gaslighting. I am not aware of any vaccine requirement to enter a temple.
Not going to address most of what you say here as anyone can verify for themselves the false nature of your claims, but…

I am not allowed to participate in the work of salvation for my ancestors due to the discriminatory mask policies at the temple. I am healthy, I am worthy, and I am willing - but I am not welcome in the House of the Lord.

Juliet
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3701

Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by Juliet »

It seems that church leaders don't like to be criticized and if there is over criticism among members or in chat groups... They are trying to appease it. Well, criticism can't be appeased. We shouldn't try to please people who are critical. We ought to be busy trying to please God, knowing this brings persecution. When it happens we are told to rejoice because the same thing happened to the prophets of old.

I have watched people in leadership positions who try to please everyone. Nothing puts you at the bottom of the food chain faster. Because it is absolutely impossible to please everyone. The minute you address the criticism from your haters is the minute you put yourself below them.

It's a control issue. The leaders of our church do not have control of the church. Only the members of the church can do that. Because it is the people who govern themselves and it is the people who choose whom they will sustain.

God made man, and man chose to form churches and sustain leaders. A person can be called of God, like Jesus... But it is up to the people to follow or to attack the anointed, or to live equally with them.

Because God is no respector of persons. No leader of a church can remove an individual's right and responsibility to think for himself about what is right and wrong. That is a human right we all are ordained to have by God.

In Jeremiah 31 we see that gaining control of our neighbor as a missionary or any other leader is not nearly so important as understanding that our neighbor has just as much right to know God for themsleves as do we. If we all respect that in each other then maybe we can live in peace.

As long as people keep trying to play king of the hill, they will always be threatened of being taken down.

A leadership position is an opportunity to serve others. That is the heart of a true leader. Those who use that position to take glory to themsleves will find themsleves being attacked mercilessly, because their heart isn't right.

endlessQuestions
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Posts: 6426

Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by endlessQuestions »

Juliet wrote: February 8th, 2022, 9:55 am It seems that church leaders don't like to be criticized and if there is over criticism among members or in chat groups... They are trying to appease it. Well, criticism can't be appeased. We shouldn't try to please people who are critical. We ought to be busy trying to please God, knowing this brings persecution. When it happens we are told to rejoice because the same thing happened to the prophets of old.

I have watched people in leadership positions who try to please everyone. Nothing puts you at the bottom of the food chain faster. Because it is absolutely impossible to please everyone. The minute you address the criticism from your haters is the minute you put yourself below them.

It's a control issue. The leaders of our church do not have control of the church. Only the members of the church can do that. Because it is the people who govern themselves and it is the people who choose whom they will sustain.

God made man, and man chose to form churches and sustain leaders. A person can be called of God, like Jesus... But it is up to the people to follow or to attack the anointed, or to live equally with them.

Because God is no respector of persons. No leader of a church can remove an individual's right and responsibility to think for himself about what is right and wrong. That is a human right we all are ordained to have by God.

In Jeremiah 31 we see that gaining control of our neighbor as a missionary or any other leader is not nearly so important as understanding that our neighbor has just as much right to know God for themsleves as do we. If we all respect that in each other then maybe we can live in peace.

As long as people keep trying to play king of the hill, they will always be threatened of being taken down.

A leadership position is an opportunity to serve others. That is the heart of a true leader. Those who use that position to take glory to themsleves will find themsleves being attacked mercilessly, because their heart isn't right.
Wow, Juliet, I was really inspired by these words. Thank you for sharing. I especially liked the last paragraph…

User avatar
NeveR
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Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by NeveR »

I think Liahona may have an undeclared agenda

endlessQuestions
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Posts: 6426

Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by endlessQuestions »

NeveR wrote: February 8th, 2022, 11:11 am I think Liahona may have an undeclared agenda
At the very last, Liahona needs to do a better job at supporting his/her opinions with facts and evidence, instead of just making broad assertions and then utilizing logical fallacies to attempt to persuade others.

Liahona is likely to end up on my foe list so I don’t end up wasting time having to sort through his/her words as I try to work things out with those who disagree with me in a constructive manner.

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BroJones
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Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by BroJones »

endlessismyname wrote: February 8th, 2022, 9:45 am
Liahona wrote: February 8th, 2022, 6:13 am
endlessismyname wrote: February 7th, 2022, 6:55 am
Liahona wrote: February 7th, 2022, 6:01 am

Please show me the evidence where "many" have been injured by the vaccines and evidence that "many more" will manifest problems?

Stating that the vaccine isn't effective when it has been shown to is also disingenuous. That's gaslighting and ignorant of several studies that have shown its effectiveness. Church leadership is also not implying members are not faithful if they don't get vaccinated. Urging church membership to get the vaccine is not the same as forcing.
Quit trying to get others to do the work you ought to be doing. The evidence is readily available, YOU go find it.

The vaccine is NOT effective, unless you are willing to accept the new “definitions” of “vaccine” and “effective” foisted upon you by evil and conspiring men.

Finally, church leadership have done much more than “urge” people. In addition to their fallacious arguments they have stepped outside the scriptural forms of Christ-like persuasion we are told to engage in and have gone so far as to create discriminatory policies that have stifled the work of salvation on both sides of the veil.

The time for humoring arguments such as yours has past, Liahona. And no one here is responsible for doing your research for you.
It's not a matter of definitions. It's a matter of demonstratable scientifically proven outcome. There are statistical differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated groups in infection, hospitalization, and deaths. Period.

Stating that vaccines are not effective when the math and outcomes show they are IS gaslighting.

Stating that church leadership is going beyond urging when they are not IS gaslighting. I am not aware of any vaccine requirement to enter a temple.
Not going to address most of what you say here as anyone can verify for themselves the false nature of your claims, but…

I am not allowed to participate in the work of salvation for my ancestors due to the discriminatory mask policies at the temple. I am healthy, I am worthy, and I am willing - but I am not welcome in the House of the Lord.
Even Kevin Ryan says wear a mask "with a message" if you have to. And I agree.
The one I wore last Sunday says in large letters, "Keep America Great. Ether 2:12". Works for me.

Sure, I get criticized for mask - wearing BY PEOPLE HERE - but not at Church Meetings!! About half the folks wear a simple mask these days, at Church.

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NeveR
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Posts: 1252

Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by NeveR »

BroJones wrote: February 8th, 2022, 11:19 am
endlessismyname wrote: February 8th, 2022, 9:45 am
Liahona wrote: February 8th, 2022, 6:13 am
endlessismyname wrote: February 7th, 2022, 6:55 am

Quit trying to get others to do the work you ought to be doing. The evidence is readily available, YOU go find it.

The vaccine is NOT effective, unless you are willing to accept the new “definitions” of “vaccine” and “effective” foisted upon you by evil and conspiring men.

Finally, church leadership have done much more than “urge” people. In addition to their fallacious arguments they have stepped outside the scriptural forms of Christ-like persuasion we are told to engage in and have gone so far as to create discriminatory policies that have stifled the work of salvation on both sides of the veil.

The time for humoring arguments such as yours has past, Liahona. And no one here is responsible for doing your research for you.
It's not a matter of definitions. It's a matter of demonstratable scientifically proven outcome. There are statistical differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated groups in infection, hospitalization, and deaths. Period.

Stating that vaccines are not effective when the math and outcomes show they are IS gaslighting.

Stating that church leadership is going beyond urging when they are not IS gaslighting. I am not aware of any vaccine requirement to enter a temple.
Not going to address most of what you say here as anyone can verify for themselves the false nature of your claims, but…

I am not allowed to participate in the work of salvation for my ancestors due to the discriminatory mask policies at the temple. I am healthy, I am worthy, and I am willing - but I am not welcome in the House of the Lord.
Even Kevin Ryan says wear a mask "with a message" if you have to. And I agree.
The one I wore last Sunday says in large letters, "Keep America Great. Ether 2:12". Works for me.

Sure, I get criticized for mask - wearing BY PEOPLE HERE - but not at Church Meetings!! About half the folks wear a simple mask these days, at Church.
Hi BroJones. I actually made a detailed reply to you about your usage of Kevin Ryan as a justification for wearing a mask.

But you totally ignored it. Only to make a kind of sideways reply to it here a few days later.

I'm not sure that's wholly commendable ethics tbh.

If you care to respond to what I said, I'm sure you know where it is.

EDIT- here's the link -
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=65137&p=1235898#p1235898

Of course you don't get criticized for wearing a mask at church meetings! Why would you expect to? You are conforming to their requests. Obeying their instructions. Doing something you know to be unnecessary simply to appease them.

Why on earth would they criticize you? You are exactly the kind of obedient subject they want us all to be.

I've NEVER worn a mask btw. And never will until they strap it to my face while holding me down.

I can't believe you don't understand why it matters.
Last edited by NeveR on February 8th, 2022, 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

endlessQuestions
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Posts: 6426

Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by endlessQuestions »

BroJones wrote: February 8th, 2022, 11:19 am
endlessismyname wrote: February 8th, 2022, 9:45 am
Liahona wrote: February 8th, 2022, 6:13 am
endlessismyname wrote: February 7th, 2022, 6:55 am

Quit trying to get others to do the work you ought to be doing. The evidence is readily available, YOU go find it.

The vaccine is NOT effective, unless you are willing to accept the new “definitions” of “vaccine” and “effective” foisted upon you by evil and conspiring men.

Finally, church leadership have done much more than “urge” people. In addition to their fallacious arguments they have stepped outside the scriptural forms of Christ-like persuasion we are told to engage in and have gone so far as to create discriminatory policies that have stifled the work of salvation on both sides of the veil.

The time for humoring arguments such as yours has past, Liahona. And no one here is responsible for doing your research for you.
It's not a matter of definitions. It's a matter of demonstratable scientifically proven outcome. There are statistical differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated groups in infection, hospitalization, and deaths. Period.

Stating that vaccines are not effective when the math and outcomes show they are IS gaslighting.

Stating that church leadership is going beyond urging when they are not IS gaslighting. I am not aware of any vaccine requirement to enter a temple.
Not going to address most of what you say here as anyone can verify for themselves the false nature of your claims, but…

I am not allowed to participate in the work of salvation for my ancestors due to the discriminatory mask policies at the temple. I am healthy, I am worthy, and I am willing - but I am not welcome in the House of the Lord.
Even Kevin Ryan says wear a mask "with a message" if you have to. And I agree.
The one I wore last Sunday says in large letters, "Keep America Great. Ether 2:12". Works for me.

Sure, I get criticized for mask - wearing BY PEOPLE HERE - but not at Church Meetings!! About half the folks wear a simple mask these days, at Church.
I am one that is willing to openly question your decision to wear a mask, Bro. Jones, but please know I support your right to wear a mask if you so close 100%.

My only point is that if you are wearing a mask to stop the spread of Covid, you should probably read the box, because you will learn you are engaging in nonsensical behavior by doing so.

If you have other reasons, more power to you…

User avatar
NeveR
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Posts: 1252

Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by NeveR »

endlessismyname wrote: February 8th, 2022, 11:41 am
BroJones wrote: February 8th, 2022, 11:19 am
endlessismyname wrote: February 8th, 2022, 9:45 am
Liahona wrote: February 8th, 2022, 6:13 am

It's not a matter of definitions. It's a matter of demonstratable scientifically proven outcome. There are statistical differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated groups in infection, hospitalization, and deaths. Period.

Stating that vaccines are not effective when the math and outcomes show they are IS gaslighting.

Stating that church leadership is going beyond urging when they are not IS gaslighting. I am not aware of any vaccine requirement to enter a temple.
Not going to address most of what you say here as anyone can verify for themselves the false nature of your claims, but…

I am not allowed to participate in the work of salvation for my ancestors due to the discriminatory mask policies at the temple. I am healthy, I am worthy, and I am willing - but I am not welcome in the House of the Lord.
Even Kevin Ryan says wear a mask "with a message" if you have to. And I agree.
The one I wore last Sunday says in large letters, "Keep America Great. Ether 2:12". Works for me.

Sure, I get criticized for mask - wearing BY PEOPLE HERE - but not at Church Meetings!! About half the folks wear a simple mask these days, at Church.
I am one that is willing to openly question your decision to wear a mask, Bro. Jones, but please know I support your right to wear a mask if you so close 100%.

My only point is that if you are wearing a mask to stop the spread of Covid, you should probably read the box, because you will learn you are engaging in nonsensical behavior by doing so.

If you have other reasons, more power to you…
Everyone has the right to do anything they choose with their own body and mind that does not aggressively harm others. So, yes, BroJones and anyone has the right to wear a mask. Just as they have the right to wear a swastika or join the ku klux klan, or get the vax.

But I think they also have a duty to be aware of the import of their actions. Wearing a mask - especially when you KNOW it's needless and useless - is a visual signal of compliance to an evil and anti-human agenda.

Which is precisely why the PTB work so hard to get people to do it.

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by endlessQuestions »

NeveR wrote: February 8th, 2022, 11:50 am
endlessismyname wrote: February 8th, 2022, 11:41 am
BroJones wrote: February 8th, 2022, 11:19 am
endlessismyname wrote: February 8th, 2022, 9:45 am

Not going to address most of what you say here as anyone can verify for themselves the false nature of your claims, but…

I am not allowed to participate in the work of salvation for my ancestors due to the discriminatory mask policies at the temple. I am healthy, I am worthy, and I am willing - but I am not welcome in the House of the Lord.
Even Kevin Ryan says wear a mask "with a message" if you have to. And I agree.
The one I wore last Sunday says in large letters, "Keep America Great. Ether 2:12". Works for me.

Sure, I get criticized for mask - wearing BY PEOPLE HERE - but not at Church Meetings!! About half the folks wear a simple mask these days, at Church.
I am one that is willing to openly question your decision to wear a mask, Bro. Jones, but please know I support your right to wear a mask if you so close 100%.

My only point is that if you are wearing a mask to stop the spread of Covid, you should probably read the box, because you will learn you are engaging in nonsensical behavior by doing so.

If you have other reasons, more power to you…
Everyone has the right to do anything they choose with their own body and mind that does not aggressively harm others. So, yes, BroJones and anyone has the right to wear a mask. Just as they have the right to wear a swastika or join the ku klux klan, or get the vax.

But I think they also have a duty to be aware of the import of their actions. Wearing a mask - especially when you KNOW it's needless and useless - is a visual signal of compliance to an evil and anti-human agenda.

Which is precisely why the PTB work so hard to get people to do it.
Excellent, excellent points, but I will simply assert that you haven't provided enough evidence to sufficiently prove your last point, which is that this is "precisely why the PTB work so hard to get people to do it".

If you wish to prove that, you have much work to do. I, for one, am interested to hear your argument.

And again, really excellent point about our duty to be aware of how we use our influence.

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Fred
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7610
Location: Zion

Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by Fred »

There is no legitimate medical reason to wear a mask. The reason they urge you to is so that the people that have willingly taken the symbol of satanic discipleship are easily identified.

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NeveR
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1252

Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by NeveR »

endlessismyname wrote: February 8th, 2022, 11:59 am
NeveR wrote: February 8th, 2022, 11:50 am
endlessismyname wrote: February 8th, 2022, 11:41 am
BroJones wrote: February 8th, 2022, 11:19 am

Even Kevin Ryan says wear a mask "with a message" if you have to. And I agree.
The one I wore last Sunday says in large letters, "Keep America Great. Ether 2:12". Works for me.

Sure, I get criticized for mask - wearing BY PEOPLE HERE - but not at Church Meetings!! About half the folks wear a simple mask these days, at Church.
I am one that is willing to openly question your decision to wear a mask, Bro. Jones, but please know I support your right to wear a mask if you so close 100%.

My only point is that if you are wearing a mask to stop the spread of Covid, you should probably read the box, because you will learn you are engaging in nonsensical behavior by doing so.

If you have other reasons, more power to you…
Everyone has the right to do anything they choose with their own body and mind that does not aggressively harm others. So, yes, BroJones and anyone has the right to wear a mask. Just as they have the right to wear a swastika or join the ku klux klan, or get the vax.

But I think they also have a duty to be aware of the import of their actions. Wearing a mask - especially when you KNOW it's needless and useless - is a visual signal of compliance to an evil and anti-human agenda.

Which is precisely why the PTB work so hard to get people to do it.
Excellent, excellent points, but I will simply assert that you haven't provided enough evidence to sufficiently prove your last point, which is that this is "precisely why the PTB work so hard to get people to do it".

If you wish to prove that, you have much work to do. I, for one, am interested to hear your argument.

And again, really excellent point about our duty to be aware of how we use our influence.
Thanks eim. When I referred to the PTB I was intending mostly to mean the governments and institutions of the world, which have, of course, done everything they can to promote mask-wearing from social pressure through fines to actual physical coercion.

I guess we can all agree the LDS church has, so far, employed mostly the first - social pressure - and there has been little consistency from Stake to Stake about implementing the 'advice'. Some areas virtually ignore the mask requirements, others rigidly enforce.

But whether it's a polite request or a show of force it's still about getting people to show compliance with the false COVID narrative and thereby strengthen its hold on people's minds.

I think every time we turn up wearing a mask we know to be unnecessary and useless we are helping advance the new tyranny just a little more

But that's just my opinion 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

endlessQuestions
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6426

Re: Prophets do not speak for God falsely

Post by endlessQuestions »

NeveR wrote: February 8th, 2022, 12:29 pm
endlessismyname wrote: February 8th, 2022, 11:59 am
NeveR wrote: February 8th, 2022, 11:50 am
endlessismyname wrote: February 8th, 2022, 11:41 am

I am one that is willing to openly question your decision to wear a mask, Bro. Jones, but please know I support your right to wear a mask if you so close 100%.

My only point is that if you are wearing a mask to stop the spread of Covid, you should probably read the box, because you will learn you are engaging in nonsensical behavior by doing so.

If you have other reasons, more power to you…
Everyone has the right to do anything they choose with their own body and mind that does not aggressively harm others. So, yes, BroJones and anyone has the right to wear a mask. Just as they have the right to wear a swastika or join the ku klux klan, or get the vax.

But I think they also have a duty to be aware of the import of their actions. Wearing a mask - especially when you KNOW it's needless and useless - is a visual signal of compliance to an evil and anti-human agenda.

Which is precisely why the PTB work so hard to get people to do it.
Excellent, excellent points, but I will simply assert that you haven't provided enough evidence to sufficiently prove your last point, which is that this is "precisely why the PTB work so hard to get people to do it".

If you wish to prove that, you have much work to do. I, for one, am interested to hear your argument.

And again, really excellent point about our duty to be aware of how we use our influence.
Thanks eim. When I referred to the PTB I was intending mostly to mean the governments and institutions of the world, which have, of course, done everything they can to promote mask-wearing from social pressure through fines to actual physical coercion.

I guess we can all agree the LDS church has, so far, employed mostly the first - social pressure - and there has been little consistency from Stake to Stake about implementing the 'advice'. Some areas virtually ignore the mask requirements, others rigidly enforce.

But whether it's a polite request or a show of force it's still about getting people to show compliance with the false COVID narrative and thereby strengthen its hold on people's minds.

I think every time we turn up wearing a mask we know to be unnecessary and useless we are helping advance the new tyranny just a little more

But that's just my opinion 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️
I find your opinion well-informed, well-stated, and edifying. Thanks for sharing it!

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