Liahona wrote: ↑February 8th, 2022, 6:13 amIt's not a matter of definitions. It's a matter of demonstratable scientifically proven outcome. There are statistical differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated groups in infection, hospitalization, and deaths. Period.endlessismyname wrote: ↑February 7th, 2022, 6:55 amQuit trying to get others to do the work you ought to be doing. The evidence is readily available, YOU go find it.Liahona wrote: ↑February 7th, 2022, 6:01 amPlease show me the evidence where "many" have been injured by the vaccines and evidence that "many more" will manifest problems?Trucker wrote: ↑February 6th, 2022, 6:39 pm The recent Church News article titled "What Latter-day Saints get wrong about living prophets, according to Keith A. Erekson" has caused a stir about the church and prophetic leadership. After repeated messaging from the church about the importance of "following the Prophet" and how he won't lead us astray, we get this latest article from the Church that not only tries to back-pedal infallibility of the prophet, but blames the members for having such ideas. As if the poor leaders have for so long tried to reign in the members' rampant expectations of the living prophet on the earth. It's the members' fault.
Something is going on here. Something has changed. Elder Renlund recently talked about the church's decision on the covid vaccine saying, "What I can tell you about this letter, as it was discussed by the first presidency and quorum of the twelve, is that it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us to send that letter. If you were to go to [the handbook]. Whether or not someone is vaccinated is not a temple recommend question, and it shouldn't be a point of contention. Read that section of the handbook, and then follow that."
So now taking the vaccine is a personal decision, and it should not cause contention among the members whether someone is vaccinated or not. We shouldn't judge anyone...not now. We were supposed to before. It used to be that to be "good global citizens" and be good members, faithfully following the prophet, meant that we get vaccinated. But now we shouldn't judge. The backpedalling, and the gaslighting, have begun.
The Church News article blames the members for expecting too much from their Prophet.
Errors in your own thinking are the real problem, he claims.
So here we see the excuses starting to be made that Prophets sometimes might just be following their "culture." So forget eternal principles. Forget an unchanging God. If we don't like something a prophet did, we can blame their "culture."
This is quite bold. Does that include the current Prophet? The 12, who are "prophets, seers and revelators" Do we now believe they make mistakes?
Tricked? Was Eve "tricked" in the Garden of Eden? What's the word we usually use in the church?....deceived. Tricked is when someone steals your camera on vacation that you ask to take your picture. Tricked is when you fall for a scammer on the phone. Tricked is not when you claim to speak the mind and will of the Lord to the church. If you get that wrong, that's not being tricked. That's being deceived.
So now we have a new concept of "lead astray." It only means away from God. It's doesn't mean we could be lead astray for other things, like the truth, like pure doctrine, like safety. With this definition, the prophet could lead us astray and cause us harm, even death, but as long as it's not away from God, he still is not leading us astray.
Singing a different tune
When vaccines became available, the church was clear on its stance. There was no misunderstanding that the church, leaders, and the prophet himself considered the vaccines "safe and effective" and that every member in the entire world should get them.
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... ugust-2021
The covid vaccines have never, to this day, been proven safe and effective. Someone may believe that or observe that, but it has not been proven. The vaccines also do not limit the spread of covid. It also is not true that the vaccines are the only way to protect against the disease. Note there is no mention of treatment or prevention, except the vaccines. The First Presidency also tells the members to follow the "wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."
All the General Authorities, the 12, and the First Presidency and their wives got the covid vaccinations. President Nelson called the vaccine a "literal godsend."
https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... nes-222014
Also,The mind and will of the Lord
This was not just a policy decision the prophet and church leaders made. This was the result or earnest prayer that reveled the mind and will of the Lord through the spirit.
Elder Renlund recently said about the First Presidency letter about covid vaccines,
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bro ... 1?lang=eng
If our church leaders told us the Lord's will regarding covid vaccines, and if they officially announced to all the members...and then were wrong....that's not being tricked. That's falsely declaring the mind and will of the Lord. That's much worse than being tricked. That's blasphemy. You can be wrong about where to build a meetinghouse, or how to invest funds, or what financial policy to enact. But you can't be wrong about declaring the mind and will of the Lord to the people. That is not something to ignore or sweep under the rug, or blame the members for having too high of expectations.
Elder Rasband reiterated the importance of following the prophet regarding covid vaccines:
skip to 6:34
timemarked link: https://youtu.be/OtpmD0qp6rg?t=394
The First Presidency sent another official letter to the church, urging members to get the vaccine:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... sks-letter
The First Presidency made a policy that only vaccinated missionaries could go to the MTC in person and that unvaccinated missionaries had to serve in their own countries:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... 19-vaccine
Now missionaries must also receive a booster to go to the MTC or stay in foreign countries:
The church does not allow religious exemptions from members seeking them for work or school:
https://www.deseret.com/2021/9/23/22688 ... -exemption
It's clear that the church, and the prophet, are very much in support of covid vaccination. The prophet says they are safe and effective, that they are a literal godsend, that all missionaries must have them to go anywhere but their home countries, that no member can get a religious exemption...and that the Holy Ghost has indicated this is the mind and will of the Lord.
But...that still isn't enough to get members to comply. D&C 121 is pretty clear on what the proper ways to lead and motivate are. Persuasion, long-suffering, reason, not manipulating, guilt-tripping, gaslighting, or any form of unrighteous dominion. Using any manipulative tactics to get people to do what you want is wrong, as is using any manipulative tactic to cover your sins or gratify your pride. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 1?lang=eng
Yet, from church leaders, we are told to good and faithful members are the ones that follow the prophet and get vaccinated. President Eyring of BYU-Idaho, the son of President Eyring in the First Presidency of the church, said this at a devotional at BYU-Idaho:
https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-fa ... les-239584
The church owned Deseret News has had several articles trying to get Utahns to comply:
https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/202 ... 19-vaccine
https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2021/8/ ... t-symptoms
https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/7/15/ ... 9-vaccines
https://www.deseret.com/2021/7/24/22589 ... vaccinated
Former physicians
Remember that President Nelson was a well-respected cardiologist. As was Elder Renlund (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng). President Nelson reminded us of his career in a church video released during the pandemic.
So at least 2 members of the top 15 leaders of the church, who are sustained as prophets, were not only physicians, but cardiologists. With the recent increase of heart problem in vaccinated people, these two men ought to be the most qualified to detect if there were a problem with the vaccines. They should be able to read the literature, understand the studies, and be aware of complications. But they weren't. They were completely supportive of the vaccines. Why would two highly skilled men in the medical field get vaccine risks more wrong than an uneducated, low-IQ Joe Schmoe on Facebook? How did they get it wrong, but regular people get it right? And even aside from being prophets, how does that happen?
Now the leaders are backpedaling. Although many of them made polished videos and gave prepared talks about the vaccines, and testified that they were lead by the Holy Ghost to make these vaccine policies....now they send out a lowly church historian to try to convince the members that they had the wrong idea all along about prophets. They don't even have the courage to do the backpedaling themselves. They make others do the gaslighting.
This is a serious situation. Many people have been injured by the vaccines, and many more will likely manifest problems. But beyond that, it's extremely serious that President Nelson, the Apostles of the Lord, and other church leaders have claimed to have spoken the mind and will of the Lord and were wrong. And tried to get members to comply using various means, including implying members are not faithful if they don't get vaccinated. This is very bad, very damaging to the church. This will destroy faith in a lot of members. And it doesn't speak well to the prophets being able to receive and proclaim the will of God, but in fact...someone of something else. We should not just let this slide or brush it off.
Stating that the vaccine isn't effective when it has been shown to is also disingenuous. That's gaslighting and ignorant of several studies that have shown its effectiveness. Church leadership is also not implying members are not faithful if they don't get vaccinated. Urging church membership to get the vaccine is not the same as forcing.
The vaccine is NOT effective, unless you are willing to accept the new “definitions” of “vaccine” and “effective” foisted upon you by evil and conspiring men.
Finally, church leadership have done much more than “urge” people. In addition to their fallacious arguments they have stepped outside the scriptural forms of Christ-like persuasion we are told to engage in and have gone so far as to create discriminatory policies that have stifled the work of salvation on both sides of the veil.
The time for humoring arguments such as yours has past, Liahona. And no one here is responsible for doing your research for you.
Stating that vaccines are not effective when the math and outcomes show they are IS gaslighting.
Stating that church leadership is going beyond urging when they are not IS gaslighting. I am not aware of any vaccine requirement to enter a temple.
the workers in the omaha neb temple were asked toxbe vaxed last year