The increased emphasis on Heavenly Mother

[Christianlee]

Well, I suppose kowtowing to the pope is one thing, but here is the next possible stage.

As in Mary becomes the pre-existent wife of Heavenly Father who comes to earth to become the Mother of God the Son? And Mary was preserved from sin as the Eastern Orthodox and Catholics teach? And Mary is the Heavenly Mother of our pre-existent spirits just as the pre-existent Jesus was the creator of the universe?

[Gadget]

Everything about exalted woman is veiled.

Truth spoke right here.

[JustDan]

Heavenly mother is a fact, and rooted in scripture and more. I'm annoyed when people talk about Her as they know when haven't been revealed (other than the principle of heavenly mother). If she's been revealed to you then you wouldn't have much to say.

The reality is, Christ didn't reveal and talk about all things publicly. If you're not following Christ's example, you're not following Christ.

Literally the complete opposite.

No scripture. No revelation. It's pure speculation, and it's offensive to God.

[NeveR]

In the Hebrew Bible God is an all powerful creator deity and therefore presumably beyond definition by gender. I always assumed the term 'father' is symbolic, allegorical, not literal. There is no suggestion, is there, that he literally fathers anyone, even Jesus.

Therefore in that context 'heavenly mother' is an anachronism. Since God is a creative force, not literally a father, you don't require a mother at all.

I admit to having a hard time sometimes with some LDS ideas about God being literally the father of us all. And the idea we have a heavenly mother seems to suggest they are literally having spiritual sex to produce us - which starts to feel a tad reductionist to me.

But that's my perspective as a fairly recent convert who is still working through some aspects.

Isn't the Mary cult rooted in paganism originally?

[Serragon]

Heavenly mother is a fact, and rooted in scripture and more. I'm annoyed when people talk about Her as they know when haven't been revealed (other than the principle of heavenly mother). If she's been revealed to you then you wouldn't have much to say.

The reality is, Christ didn't reveal and talk about all things publicly. If you're not following Christ's example, you're not following Christ.

Literally the complete opposite.

No scripture. No revelation. It's pure speculation, and it's offensive to God.

Dan is correct. All references to heavenly mother are post-scriptural and not part of any revelation.

If you believe in heavenly mother, you have inferred her existence. Unless of course you have a personal witness from the Spirit. But again, that is subjective and not objective.

The reason we talk about her so much is that many women desire a female God. They don't believe that their creator can actually relate to them as women.

I admit that this lack of documentation does not mean that she does not exist. In fact, I personally believe that she does exist, though probably not in the same way as most members do. But absent any revelation, I find it irresponsible of our leaders to talk about our heavenly parents (which is now part of the Young Women's theme) without anything to support it except hearsay passed down after Joseph's death.

[Niemand]

Isn't the Mary cult rooted in paganism originally?

A lot of it is. The Queen of Heaven moniker used in Catholicism matches that of Ishtar and various pagan goddesses.

I think the symbol of the Virgin and child is twofold. Firstly, it is appealing from a human POV, the love of family etc, and secondly, it matches the pre-existing cults.

I give them a bit of the benefit of the doubt on this as the mother-child archetype is a positive one and goes back to our origins.


I can understand the appeal of a Mother goddess. People like the maternal idea. In many cultures, you had the Sky Father and Earth Mother, occasionally reversed. Or the Sun and the Moon, with the Moon having feminine associations due to monthly cycles etc.

[EvanLM]

Evan: you truly don't understand exaltation if you think there is no gender. You must not believe anything JS taught about exaltation and you then think god has no gender? Might as well be on a Catholic Forum or somewhere where exaltation doesn't even exist. Exaltation is being in a union man & woman. If there are no men or women in heaven, I will head back to the Telestial or Terrestrial, where ever men and women exist.

sorry, I meant that no gender gets more blessings than another. for example, the teachings of man is that . . .a woman will SHARE her husbands priesthood. . . . false doctrine alert here. . . women have their own priesthood or . . . they have THE priesthood and DON'T need to share. . .

You know, it's possible that God has revealed a lot about women and their to our prophets who have a problem leaning aways form society. . . maybe. . not saying it is true. . .just maybe. . .

[EvanLM]

woops ; I haTe 2 ediTE . . . maybe our prophets haven't told us all of the privileges of women or maybe God just didn't reveal it to a bunch of ignoring men

[EvanLM]

I'll just drop my take on things here and tell you that I have had people laughing in their stitches on these ideas but. . .you might find no humor in it

God gave the priesthood to men cuz he noticed that the women always do the work and he said, "Don't even think of giving this responsibility to the women. It's the only way I can get you men to do the work. Don't pawn it off on them since you have pawned enough off already. By the way, quit watching the women take care of the tables and chairs after the events."

Also, god decided that the bishops are supposed to keep everything confident from their wives cuz he is tired of the bishops' wife having to solve all of the problems for the bishop since it is NOT her calling.

I think that God is insistent on the men doing this work in the church, hopefully many will be saved through this work since the women don't need the priesthood to go to the temple or reach exaltation. We've been taught the ideas of men too much in the church

[EvanLM]

Sure everything about mother must be learned as one of the Mysteries of the Kingdom. She is less important in this lower sphere so she lets her husband carry out this creation, I suppose she has more important things to do. BTW god said "Mother is sacred and is the source of all life".

The first timne that I saw the endowment I knew taht I had helped create the world. See. . .adam is the type of all men and women. . .he represents all huymans . . he repreesents you and what we have already done and have been through . . .didn't you know that you helped create this world???? That is so obvious in the endowment . . .remember, Jesus teaches spiritual doctrine and truths through a natural story. . . sometimes, in the endowment, you see adam and eve and their story. . .you also see sometimes all mankind (womankind, too) and their story . . .and you also see Christ(Adam) and his bride the church (Eve) represented . . .and mostly you see the priesthood . . .

Gileadi is right . . . some people have not much desire to learn and have a hard time when presented with the truth.

[EvanLM]

When I was young, we had the best bishop and I think for about 15 years. He always had the women go home after any dinner. . .RS dinner, ward dinner, xmas dinner. . .every dinner. . .home after it was finished. Then the men cleared the tables put them away, did the dishes, hauled the trash, etc. . . .the men did all of the clean up. I remember standing ibn the hall, sometimes instead of going home and peeking around the stairs to watch the men washing and drying dishes and laughing and flipping each other with wet towels, teasing each other. . . it was great cuz my inactive dad was always there doing those dishes.

I remember it like it was today. If men in this church really think they have some extra gift in the priesthood, then let this hopeless pride keep them from taking responsibilities in the church that remind women that we are all equal and our gifts are the same. May God have mercy on lazy men

[EvanLM]

afterthought, since I don't have a date tonight ; when eve promised to Adam to live the law of the Lord, then she was ACTUALLY representing symbolically, the church and their covenant to Jesus Christ, the Lord. Then, Adam made his covenant to God, acting as a type of Christ , to keep God's law. hmmmm hmmmmmm Eve the church, Adam, the Lord. . . wording of the old endowment shows that . . .now we just have the new revised edition

but, someone changed the endowment.. .. . . oh well whatever makes you happy

[EvanLM]

eve never makes a promise to Adam since he CAN'T save her. . .

[Rubicon]

I believe there are heavenly mothers, Eve for example, but I don't know that I believe in a Heavenly Mother.

When Brigham Young sent Orson Pratt on a mission to the East Coast to publicly and formally preach plural marriage, Pratt made a fascinating point (it's the talk right after the main "Adam God" talk by Brigham Young. Around Journal of Discourses 1:60 or so). He quoted D&C 76:24 (spirit children are "begotten unto" God), and taught that the spirit children are created by gods (exalted couples) "unto" the Father. The link with polygamy was that each firstborn son of each of the Father's wives was a savior.

It's fascinating to me to think that I may not literally be a child of the Father in the sense that we usually think of that. I have absolutely no problem with being a spirit son of an exalted couple, provided and adopted "unto" the Father. And, I have no problem with my spirit progeny being adopted and provided "unto" Jehovah when He becomes a Father.

From what Joseph Smith taught in the King Follett Discourse and the Sermon in the Grove, I think that "Head Gods" have to have been saviors. And, only One on our earth qualifies for that.

[Robin Hood]

I believe there are heavenly mothers, Eve for example, but I don't know that I believe in a Heavenly Mother.

When Brigham Young sent Orson Pratt on a mission to the East Coast to publicly and formally preach plural marriage, Pratt made a fascinating point (it's the talk right after the main "Adam God" talk by Brigham Young. Around Journal of Discourses 1:60 or so). He quoted D&C 76:24 (spirit children are "begotten unto" God), and taught that the spirit children are created by gods (exalted couples) "unto" the Father. The link with polygamy was that each firstborn son of each of the Father's wives was a savior.

It's fascinating to me to think that I may not literally be a child of the Father in the sense that we usually think of that. I have absolutely no problem with being a spirit son of an exalted couple, provided and adopted "unto" the Father. And, I have no problem with my spirit progeny being adopted and provided "unto" Jehovah when He becomes a Father.

From what Joseph Smith taught in the King Follett Discourse and the Sermon in the Grove, I think that "Head Gods" have to have been saviors. And, only One on our earth qualifies for that.

In a sense I think we may regard ourselves as children of God the Eternal Father in a similar way as we are regarded as children of Abraham.
Abraham is our father, but several generations ago. He's actually a kind of great, great, great etc grandfather.

[mahalanobis]

I speculate that there is a Heavenly Mother. The idea is not offensive to me per se.

However, I think the version of her that is worshiped by the modern LDS is completely false. The way that she is emphasized is done in a over-intellectualized manner that is pleasing to the ears of those possessed of spirit of Babylon.

And yes, I said worship, because that is what they do. Nowhere in the gospel are we told to pray to her or to worship her. The Doctrine of Christ is quite clear on the nature of deity and the path to return to God's presence. Yet every time we sing the hymn O My Father, she is prayed to by the entire congregation.

[TheChristian]

The Old Testament states clearly we are to worship the God of Israel and no other............He alone is our King, our Saviour, our Redeemer, our Creator..............All of which are titles of Christ Jesus in the New Testament.....
We are told by this God of Israel that there is no other God, there is none before Him, nor will there be any after Him, there is none besides Him ............
Oft the Israelites fell into pagan worship, and began to worship Asherah a female goddess claiming that she was the God of Israels wife.........
Asherah was a pagan goddess, whom was the wife of the pagans supreme god, her titles were Heavenly Mother, Queen of Heaven, the Lady of the serpent, mother of all living............
King Soloman in his old age went after her for instance............

The God of Israel condemned such, in regards to some of the Israelites saying Asherah was his wife and a goddess to be worshipped along side Him, He said "there was none beside Him" He alone was God and only He should be worshipped..............

Its a sorrow that some in the LDS church say you must worship a Heavenly Father, but cannot worship Christ Jesus, only give him reverence and respect as you would a prophet, yet can covertly insinuate you can worship a heavenly mother...........

After all whom was it whom hung apon the Cross for us, it was Christ Jesus whom is the very God of Israel that in former times condemned the worship of heavenly mothers, heavenly queens and so forth........

[buffalo_girl]

This post is from a phone so will not have quotes from Genesis 2&3.
After Adam was placed in the garden, he was tasked with naming ‘every living creature’. When his help meet was formed from his rib, Adam called her “woman”. Genesis 2:23

After The Fall, The Lord spelled out the consequences of their transgression and prior to the coats of skin being provided, “Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.” Genesis 3:20

So...I find Adam’s realization of his companion’s eternal stewardship as well as for his own stewardship a ‘promotion’ for both. She is more than an extension of himself, both equally necessary for their shared venture.

The order of Genesis events portrayed in the endowment presentation needs adjustment in my view. The name Eve is used by Adam prior to The Fall in the portrayal. He would not have realized her eternal role previous to crossing into mortality. Nor would she have.

[TheDuke]

Close your eyes, think hard about eternal mother..... did you see Wendy Nelson or Sharon Eubank when your eyes were closed? ................ Sorry, just couldn't resist a bit of humor on this Friday evening. Please don't answer it was just a joke as we know heavenly mother is a redhead............ Sorry had to add that one two. I guess I'm just a bit down on those selected to be LDS motherly role models (neither of the above are actually mothers to my understanding).

[endlessQuestions]

In the Hebrew Bible God is an all powerful creator deity and therefore presumably beyond definition by gender.

I’m sorry, what? Can you build that argument out logically for me? Because that’s a very precocious claim that sounds like it came straight from the halls of higher education…

Looking forward to seeing the argument. It’s great that you’re working through these things as a recent convert. Pretty impressive.

[Luke]

Heavenly Mothers.

[Ciams]

Heavenly mother is a fact, and rooted in scripture and more. I'm annoyed when people talk about Her as they know when haven't been revealed (other than the principle of heavenly mother). If she's been revealed to you then you wouldn't have much to say.

The reality is, Christ didn't reveal and talk about all things publicly. If you're not following Christ's example, you're not following Christ.

Literally the complete opposite.

No scripture. No revelation. It's pure speculation, and it's offensive to God.

It's right under your nose. If you havent found it, you're not searching. Cant say more than that. Really is painfully obvious if you interact with the text instead of hurrying on to the next verse. No need to prove anything to anyone though.

[I Dont Know...]

I have received No scripture. I have received No revelation. I am purely speculating, and I am offensive to God. Fixed it...

[Juliet]

We don't have revelation about Heavenly Mother from any of the prophets of the church. They may reference her, but if they do, they are not telling us how they gained revelation about her. She seems to be referenced as a doctrinal assumption. We don't have a first vision experience where she was seen and therefore testified.

[Robin Hood]

We don't have revelation about Heavenly Mother from any of the prophets of the church. They may reference her, but if they do, they are not telling us how they gained revelation about her. She seems to be referenced as a doctrinal assumption. We don't have a first vision experience where she was seen and therefore testified.

I with you on this. Nearly everything we think we know on this issue is opinion and conjecture. I'm happy to leave it that way at present.