"Who Killed Joseph Smith?" Documentary - Who do you think did it? Why?

[Reluctant Watchman]

I watched this interview. Thank you so much for sharing. It was very helpful to me because it helped me understand just G. more. I found his search for truth and love of God relatable.

He is far more of an open book and more sincere than what you'd get from the documentary.

I was a bit surprised that some of his responses weren't more doctrinal, like why the idea of disagreeing with prophets and how they "can't lead you astray" wasn't expounded upon more... but then again it's just an interview, not a doctrinal thesis. And maybe it's just me, I've written an entire essay on why I think the infallibility doctrine is anti-Christian.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Justin specifically notes that they used about 2/3rd the powder, essentially dialing it back, so they were taking into consideration a person who didn't get all of the powder in their gun. It still destroyed the ballistic dummies, even after being shot through a door. Let's face it, a musket is gonna mess you up big time.

Right, but I would like to have seen some more research into how much powder people back then used in close indoor combat. Would they have used the full amount? How much was spilled? Let's say that one kill shot only had 1/3 the amount because they were refilling their gun with people shoving them trying to open the door. What would that have looked like?

It's an hour an a half documentary... You could make 20+ documentaries if you dug into each facet. Very few people would watch that.

Right, I get that, but again, if you look through the comments on the presentation people are just jumping lockstep into saying, "Yes, this is exactly what happened." And I'm just saying that I don't think he made a strong enough case based on what he presented. It's obvious that there are problems with the accounts that we have. A vacuum is created, he fills it with a theory, just one. That's fine, it's his film and he can do that but I don't see a lot of additional thinking beyond that, people seem to be just jumping on this theory that is also incomplete and has many key points that would need to be proven.

It's impossible for any film to do that and he does say that there is much work to be done, but people are often intellectually lazy and will just accept a new idea without thinking it through so much of my commentary on this thread is taking it deeper and asking more questions and presenting more ideas which is I think what the director would prefer to see happen than just a blanket acceptance of his theory.

The thing we have to keep in mind is all of this has to relate somewhat to the narrative of WW and JT. If we remove them from the equation then there are limitless possibilities. I mean, it could have been little green aliens with a laser beam if we deviate from the narrative.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I did find it interesting (sad really) that they excommunicated Justin's wife as well. The Restoration began with asking questions. Joseph championed the idea. He wasn't afraid of debate and openly welcomed it. The modern church has fallen a long ways.

[oneClimbs]

Right, but I would like to have seen some more research into how much powder people back then used in close indoor combat. Would they have used the full amount? How much was spilled? Let's say that one kill shot only had 1/3 the amount because they were refilling their gun with people shoving them trying to open the door. What would that have looked like?

It's an hour an a half documentary... You could make 20+ documentaries if you dug into each facet. Very few people would watch that.

Right, I get that, but again, if you look through the comments on the presentation people are just jumping lockstep into saying, "Yes, this is exactly what happened." And I'm just saying that I don't think he made a strong enough case based on what he presented. It's obvious that there are problems with the accounts that we have. A vacuum is created, he fills it with a theory, just one. That's fine, it's his film and he can do that but I don't see a lot of additional thinking beyond that, people seem to be just jumping on this theory that is also incomplete and has many key points that would need to be proven.

It's impossible for any film to do that and he does say that there is much work to be done, but people are often intellectually lazy and will just accept a new idea without thinking it through so much of my commentary on this thread is taking it deeper and asking more questions and presenting more ideas which is I think what the director would prefer to see happen than just a blanket acceptance of his theory.

The thing we have to keep in mind is all of this has to relate somewhat to the narrative of WW and JT. If we remove them from the equation then there are limitless possibilities. I mean, it could have been little green aliens with a laser beam if we deviate from the narrative.

Right, and we can either trust or distrust them insofar as they mesh with any evidence found that is solid. Things like the watch and questions about bullet calibers and whether pistols were mentioned or not or involved or not muddy the waters. It's an event that happened and we only really have their stories and any evidence left over. For a long time certain clues were just simply not available.

As the saints moved out west they told a narrative of what happened and that went on for generations. Now, we have more insights, some significant, others not so much and more questions raised. Look, I think it's all a good thing, it's good to seek out new evidence, postulate new theories if they can be backed up. But to go from some inconsistencies to John and Willard straight up murdering Joseph and Hyrum, you'd need to have a lot more evidence than what the film provided.

I think the film showed that there are holes in the story and much of that was well done and legitimate, but to plug the gaps instead of making minor adjustments to the story to explain some of the inconsistencies, you turn friends into murderers and that's a big stretch don't you think?

Again, not saying it's impossible, I just wasn't convinced by the evidence. I thought it was plausible but I have to ask if there was enough evidence presented to convince me and I didn't think there was. But I enjoyed the film and I enjoyed considering another theory about what happened, I'm always willing to hear new evidence.

[Reluctant Watchman]

It's an hour an a half documentary... You could make 20+ documentaries if you dug into each facet. Very few people would watch that.

Right, I get that, but again, if you look through the comments on the presentation people are just jumping lockstep into saying, "Yes, this is exactly what happened." And I'm just saying that I don't think he made a strong enough case based on what he presented. It's obvious that there are problems with the accounts that we have. A vacuum is created, he fills it with a theory, just one. That's fine, it's his film and he can do that but I don't see a lot of additional thinking beyond that, people seem to be just jumping on this theory that is also incomplete and has many key points that would need to be proven.

It's impossible for any film to do that and he does say that there is much work to be done, but people are often intellectually lazy and will just accept a new idea without thinking it through so much of my commentary on this thread is taking it deeper and asking more questions and presenting more ideas which is I think what the director would prefer to see happen than just a blanket acceptance of his theory.

The thing we have to keep in mind is all of this has to relate somewhat to the narrative of WW and JT. If we remove them from the equation then there are limitless possibilities. I mean, it could have been little green aliens with a laser beam if we deviate from the narrative.

Right, and we can either trust or distrust them insofar as they mesh with any evidence found that is solid. Things like the watch and questions about bullet calibers and whether pistols were mentioned or not or involved or not muddy the waters. It's an event that happened and we only really have their stories and any evidence left over. For a long time certain clues were just simply not available.

As the saints moved out west they told a narrative of what happened and that went on for generations. Now, we have more insights, some significant, others not so much and more questions raised. Look, I think it's all a good thing, it's good to seek out new evidence, postulate new theories if they can be backed up. But to go from some inconsistencies to John and Willard straight up murdering Joseph and Hyrum, you'd need to have a lot more evidence than what the film provided.

I think the film showed that there are holes in the story and much of that was well done and legitimate, but to plug the gaps instead of making minor adjustments to the story to explain some of the inconsistencies, you turn friends into murderers and that's a big stretch don't you think?

Again, not saying it's impossible, I just wasn't convinced by the evidence. I thought it was plausible but I have to ask if there was enough evidence presented to convince me and I didn't think there was. But I enjoyed the film and I enjoyed considering another theory about what happened, I'm always willing to hear new evidence.

I think the follow-up documentary exploring motive will help fill in some gaps. You really can't separate the two in a legitimate crime evaluation. That's probably why I favor the theory, many men had strong motives. Not to mention there is pretty darn good evidence they were liars.

[Bbhector]

Well done and thought provoking. If Ana a big if it went down this way. My theory is they knew the mob was going to get and kill Joseph. Now the succession problem begins. The need Hyrum outta the way. Joseph was collateral damage in the assasination of Hyrum. Hmmmm

[Bbhector]

Well done and thought provoking. If Ana a big if it went down this way. My theory is they knew the mob was going to get and kill Joseph. Now the succession problem begins. The need Hyrum outta the way. Joseph was collateral damage in the assasination of Hyrum. Hmmmm

[oneClimbs]

Right, I get that, but again, if you look through the comments on the presentation people are just jumping lockstep into saying, "Yes, this is exactly what happened." And I'm just saying that I don't think he made a strong enough case based on what he presented. It's obvious that there are problems with the accounts that we have. A vacuum is created, he fills it with a theory, just one. That's fine, it's his film and he can do that but I don't see a lot of additional thinking beyond that, people seem to be just jumping on this theory that is also incomplete and has many key points that would need to be proven.

It's impossible for any film to do that and he does say that there is much work to be done, but people are often intellectually lazy and will just accept a new idea without thinking it through so much of my commentary on this thread is taking it deeper and asking more questions and presenting more ideas which is I think what the director would prefer to see happen than just a blanket acceptance of his theory.

The thing we have to keep in mind is all of this has to relate somewhat to the narrative of WW and JT. If we remove them from the equation then there are limitless possibilities. I mean, it could have been little green aliens with a laser beam if we deviate from the narrative.

Right, and we can either trust or distrust them insofar as they mesh with any evidence found that is solid. Things like the watch and questions about bullet calibers and whether pistols were mentioned or not or involved or not muddy the waters. It's an event that happened and we only really have their stories and any evidence left over. For a long time certain clues were just simply not available.

As the saints moved out west they told a narrative of what happened and that went on for generations. Now, we have more insights, some significant, others not so much and more questions raised. Look, I think it's all a good thing, it's good to seek out new evidence, postulate new theories if they can be backed up. But to go from some inconsistencies to John and Willard straight up murdering Joseph and Hyrum, you'd need to have a lot more evidence than what the film provided.

I think the film showed that there are holes in the story and much of that was well done and legitimate, but to plug the gaps instead of making minor adjustments to the story to explain some of the inconsistencies, you turn friends into murderers and that's a big stretch don't you think?

Again, not saying it's impossible, I just wasn't convinced by the evidence. I thought it was plausible but I have to ask if there was enough evidence presented to convince me and I didn't think there was. But I enjoyed the film and I enjoyed considering another theory about what happened, I'm always willing to hear new evidence.

I think the follow-up documentary exploring motive will help fill in some gaps. You really can't separate the two in a legitimate crime evaluation. That's probably why I favor the theory, many men had strong motives. Not to mention there is pretty darn good evidence they were liars.

Yeah, let's see how the evidence stacks up.

[cab]

I’d like to see a murder investigation on Samuel Smith.

[Refraction75]

I’d like to see a murder investigation on Samuel Smith.

Yeah I agree having three Smith deaths in a short time period is quite suspicious. Wasnt the official story something like he rode a horse while trying to flee a mob and died?

[cab]

I’d like to see a murder investigation on Samuel Smith.

Yeah I agree having three Smith deaths in a short time period is quite suspicious. Wasnt the official story something like he rode a horse while trying to flee a mob and died?

From Saints Volume 1 chapter 45

I do notice that Willard Richards is a common theme… And what was that white power that Hosea Stout gave Samuel…. Just saying…

“Later that day, Willard Richards and Samuel Smith rode into Nauvoo with wagons carrying the bodies of Joseph and Hyrum. To shield them from the hot summer sun, the bodies had been placed in wooden boxes and covered with brush.
Both Willard and Samuel were deeply shaken from the previous day’s attack. Samuel had tried to visit his brothers in jail, but before he could reach Carthage, a mob had fired on him and chased him for more than two hours on horseback. Willard, meanwhile, had survived the assault with only a small wound on his earlobe, fulfilling a prophecy Joseph had made a year earlier that balls would fly around Willard, strike his friends on the right and left, but leave not a hole in his clothing…

Church leaders in Nauvoo were divided over who had the authority to make the appointment. Some people believed the responsibility should fall on Samuel Smith, the prophet’s oldest living brother, but he had taken sick after the mob chased him away from Carthage, and he died suddenly at the end of July. Others believed that local stake leaders should select the new trustee. Willard Richards and William Phelps wanted to postpone the decision until the Twelve had returned from their mission to the eastern states so they could participate in the selection.”

[Refraction75]

I’d like to see a murder investigation on Samuel Smith.

Yeah I agree having three Smith deaths in a short time period is quite suspicious. Wasnt the official story something like he rode a horse while trying to flee a mob and died?

From Saints Volume 1 chapter 45

I do notice that Willard Richards is a common theme… And what was that white power that Hosea Stout gave Samuel…. Just saying…

“Later that day, Willard Richards and Samuel Smith rode into Nauvoo with wagons carrying the bodies of Joseph and Hyrum. To shield them from the hot summer sun, the bodies had been placed in wooden boxes and covered with brush.
Both Willard and Samuel were deeply shaken from the previous day’s attack. Samuel had tried to visit his brothers in jail, but before he could reach Carthage, a mob had fired on him and chased him for more than two hours on horseback. Willard, meanwhile, had survived the assault with only a small wound on his earlobe, fulfilling a prophecy Joseph had made a year earlier that balls would fly around Willard, strike his friends on the right and left, but leave not a hole in his clothing…

Church leaders in Nauvoo were divided over who had the authority to make the appointment. Some people believed the responsibility should fall on Samuel Smith, the prophet’s oldest living brother, but he had taken sick after the mob chased him away from Carthage, and he died suddenly at the end of July. Others believed that local stake leaders should select the new trustee. Willard Richards and William Phelps wanted to postpone the decision until the Twelve had returned from their mission to the eastern states so they could participate in the selection.”

Ok so we have:

Willard Richards is found alive with John Taylor in Carthage jail with the deceased Joseph and Hyrum Smith. The mob i guess decided it didnt want to kill all the Mormons in the room like mobs did before. Just the two most recognizable brothers? How did the mob really know. If you were hell bent on murder wouldnt you kill all the witnesses?

Then a day later Willard Richards is found with Samuel Smith transporting the dead bodies of Joesph and Hyrum. Samuel Smith that "got taken sick after the mob chased him". Samuel Smith later dies in late July as a result?

Kinda weird to have one person Willard Richards in contact with three people who end up dead shortly after.

I guess it could happen but man that is rather bad luck....

[ImBored]

Did the conspirators make a blood oath?

[cab]

I’d like to see a murder investigation on Samuel Smith.

Yeah I agree having three Smith deaths in a short time period is quite suspicious. Wasnt the official story something like he rode a horse while trying to flee a mob and died?

From Saints Volume 1 chapter 45

I do notice that Willard Richards is a common theme… And what was that white power that Hosea Stout gave Samuel…. Just saying…

“Later that day, Willard Richards and Samuel Smith rode into Nauvoo with wagons carrying the bodies of Joseph and Hyrum. To shield them from the hot summer sun, the bodies had been placed in wooden boxes and covered with brush.
Both Willard and Samuel were deeply shaken from the previous day’s attack. Samuel had tried to visit his brothers in jail, but before he could reach Carthage, a mob had fired on him and chased him for more than two hours on horseback. Willard, meanwhile, had survived the assault with only a small wound on his earlobe, fulfilling a prophecy Joseph had made a year earlier that balls would fly around Willard, strike his friends on the right and left, but leave not a hole in his clothing…

Church leaders in Nauvoo were divided over who had the authority to make the appointment. Some people believed the responsibility should fall on Samuel Smith, the prophet’s oldest living brother, but he had taken sick after the mob chased him away from Carthage, and he died suddenly at the end of July. Others believed that local stake leaders should select the new trustee. Willard Richards and William Phelps wanted to postpone the decision until the Twelve had returned from their mission to the eastern states so they could participate in the selection.”

Ok so we have:

Willard Richards is found alive with John Taylor in Carthage jail with the deceased Joseph and Hyrum Smith. The mob i guess decided it didnt want to kill all the Mormons in the room like mobs did before. Just the two most recognizable brothers? How did the mob really know. If you were hell bent on murder wouldnt you kill all the witnesses?

Then a day later Willard Richards is found with Samuel Smith transporting the dead bodies of Joesph and Hyrum. Samuel Smith that "got taken sick after the mob chased him". Samuel Smith later dies in late July as a result?

Kinda weird to have one person Willard Richards in contact with three people who end up dead shortly after.

I guess it could happen but man that is rather bad luck....

And he just happened to be inserted as church historian and chief revisor of Joseph Smith’s history shortly thereafter, a position he holds for the rest of his life… and he happens to be cousins with the man who takes over the reigns of the church…

https://rsc.byu.edu/prophets-apostles-l ... d-richards

[Robin Hood]

Having discovered a number of discrepancies in the documentary, and having looked carefully at the evidence presented and alternative narratives to the one presented by the film maker, I messaged him with some of my observations.
Not had a reply yet.

I hope the lesson he learns is that it pays to spend more time looking carefully at alternative possibilities for the available evidence. He was far too quick to draw his conclusions.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Having discovered a number of discrepancies in the documentary, and having looked carefully at the evidence presented and alternative narratives to the one presented by the film maker, I messaged him with some of my observations.
Not had a reply yet.

I hope the lesson he learns is that it pays to spend more time looking carefully at alternative possibilities for the available evidence. He was far too quick to draw his conclusions.

It was a documentary to present a theory, not to write a novel... A theory has to have a conclusion, it's part of the research process. His theory is far more valid than any of the 6 theories he covered in the film. Present a better one than he did that includes the core narrative of WR and JT that doesn't make them look like complete fools, then I'd consider what you're saying.

[Refraction75]

Yeah I agree having three Smith deaths in a short time period is quite suspicious. Wasnt the official story something like he rode a horse while trying to flee a mob and died?

From Saints Volume 1 chapter 45

I do notice that Willard Richards is a common theme… And what was that white power that Hosea Stout gave Samuel…. Just saying…

“Later that day, Willard Richards and Samuel Smith rode into Nauvoo with wagons carrying the bodies of Joseph and Hyrum. To shield them from the hot summer sun, the bodies had been placed in wooden boxes and covered with brush.
Both Willard and Samuel were deeply shaken from the previous day’s attack. Samuel had tried to visit his brothers in jail, but before he could reach Carthage, a mob had fired on him and chased him for more than two hours on horseback. Willard, meanwhile, had survived the assault with only a small wound on his earlobe, fulfilling a prophecy Joseph had made a year earlier that balls would fly around Willard, strike his friends on the right and left, but leave not a hole in his clothing…

Church leaders in Nauvoo were divided over who had the authority to make the appointment. Some people believed the responsibility should fall on Samuel Smith, the prophet’s oldest living brother, but he had taken sick after the mob chased him away from Carthage, and he died suddenly at the end of July. Others believed that local stake leaders should select the new trustee. Willard Richards and William Phelps wanted to postpone the decision until the Twelve had returned from their mission to the eastern states so they could participate in the selection.”

Ok so we have:

Willard Richards is found alive with John Taylor in Carthage jail with the deceased Joseph and Hyrum Smith. The mob i guess decided it didnt want to kill all the Mormons in the room like mobs did before. Just the two most recognizable brothers? How did the mob really know. If you were hell bent on murder wouldnt you kill all the witnesses?

Then a day later Willard Richards is found with Samuel Smith transporting the dead bodies of Joesph and Hyrum. Samuel Smith that "got taken sick after the mob chased him". Samuel Smith later dies in late July as a result?

Kinda weird to have one person Willard Richards in contact with three people who end up dead shortly after.

I guess it could happen but man that is rather bad luck....

And he just happened to be inserted as church historian and chief revisor of Joseph Smith’s history shortly thereafter, a position he holds for the rest of his life… and he happens to be cousins with the man who takes over the reigns of the church…

https://rsc.byu.edu/prophets-apostles-l ... d-richards

Has there been any evidence of manipulation of historical documents that he oversaw?

[cab]

I’d like to see a murder investigation on Samuel Smith.

Yeah I agree having three Smith deaths in a short time period is quite suspicious. Wasnt the official story something like he rode a horse while trying to flee a mob and died?

From Saints Volume 1 chapter 45

I do notice that Willard Richards is a common theme… And what was that white power that Hosea Stout gave Samuel…. Just saying…

“Later that day, Willard Richards and Samuel Smith rode into Nauvoo with wagons carrying the bodies of Joseph and Hyrum. To shield them from the hot summer sun, the bodies had been placed in wooden boxes and covered with brush.
Both Willard and Samuel were deeply shaken from the previous day’s attack. Samuel had tried to visit his brothers in jail, but before he could reach Carthage, a mob had fired on him and chased him for more than two hours on horseback. Willard, meanwhile, had survived the assault with only a small wound on his earlobe, fulfilling a prophecy Joseph had made a year earlier that balls would fly around Willard, strike his friends on the right and left, but leave not a hole in his clothing…

Church leaders in Nauvoo were divided over who had the authority to make the appointment. Some people believed the responsibility should fall on Samuel Smith, the prophet’s oldest living brother, but he had taken sick after the mob chased him away from Carthage, and he died suddenly at the end of July. Others believed that local stake leaders should select the new trustee. Willard Richards and William Phelps wanted to postpone the decision until the Twelve had returned from their mission to the eastern states so they could participate in the selection.”

Ok so we have:

Willard Richards is found alive with John Taylor in Carthage jail with the deceased Joseph and Hyrum Smith. The mob i guess decided it didnt want to kill all the Mormons in the room like mobs did before. Just the two most recognizable brothers? How did the mob really know. If you were hell bent on murder wouldnt you kill all the witnesses?

Then a day later Willard Richards is found with Samuel Smith transporting the dead bodies of Joesph and Hyrum. Samuel Smith that "got taken sick after the mob chased him". Samuel Smith later dies in late July as a result?

Kinda weird to have one person Willard Richards in contact with three people who end up dead shortly after.

I guess it could happen but man that is rather bad luck....

And he just happens to be the same man of whom Joseph allegedly “prophesied” that “the time would come that balls would fly around him like hail, and he should see his friends fall on the right and on the left, but that there should not be a hole in his garment.”

Only problem is, this “prophesy” appears nowhere in any journal, manuscript, paper, or anywhere during either Joseph Smith’s life or Willard Richards’ life (he dies in 1854)…

Even though Richards was the chief compiler of the “History of the Church” to his death, and the draft version of the “History” for the day of Joseph’s murder wasn’t written until after Richards’ death…. this “prophesy” still had not made an appearance… See here: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ust-1844/3

This “prophesy” doesn’t appear in the “History” until 2 years after Richards’ death in 1856. See here: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... t-1844/189

This is the 1st time this prophesy can be found… appearing out of thin air…

Yeah, I call BS

[cab]

From Saints Volume 1 chapter 45

I do notice that Willard Richards is a common theme… And what was that white power that Hosea Stout gave Samuel…. Just saying…

“Later that day, Willard Richards and Samuel Smith rode into Nauvoo with wagons carrying the bodies of Joseph and Hyrum. To shield them from the hot summer sun, the bodies had been placed in wooden boxes and covered with brush.
Both Willard and Samuel were deeply shaken from the previous day’s attack. Samuel had tried to visit his brothers in jail, but before he could reach Carthage, a mob had fired on him and chased him for more than two hours on horseback. Willard, meanwhile, had survived the assault with only a small wound on his earlobe, fulfilling a prophecy Joseph had made a year earlier that balls would fly around Willard, strike his friends on the right and left, but leave not a hole in his clothing…

Church leaders in Nauvoo were divided over who had the authority to make the appointment. Some people believed the responsibility should fall on Samuel Smith, the prophet’s oldest living brother, but he had taken sick after the mob chased him away from Carthage, and he died suddenly at the end of July. Others believed that local stake leaders should select the new trustee. Willard Richards and William Phelps wanted to postpone the decision until the Twelve had returned from their mission to the eastern states so they could participate in the selection.”

Ok so we have:

Willard Richards is found alive with John Taylor in Carthage jail with the deceased Joseph and Hyrum Smith. The mob i guess decided it didnt want to kill all the Mormons in the room like mobs did before. Just the two most recognizable brothers? How did the mob really know. If you were hell bent on murder wouldnt you kill all the witnesses?

Then a day later Willard Richards is found with Samuel Smith transporting the dead bodies of Joesph and Hyrum. Samuel Smith that "got taken sick after the mob chased him". Samuel Smith later dies in late July as a result?

Kinda weird to have one person Willard Richards in contact with three people who end up dead shortly after.

I guess it could happen but man that is rather bad luck....

And he just happened to be inserted as church historian and chief revisor of Joseph Smith’s history shortly thereafter, a position he holds for the rest of his life… and he happens to be cousins with the man who takes over the reigns of the church…

https://rsc.byu.edu/prophets-apostles-l ... d-richards

Has there been any evidence of manipulation of historical documents that he oversaw?

I’d have to go look at the dates to find the specific grievances, but I know WR directly “dictated” the History through part way through 1843…

But there’s of course this famous quote from a church historian Wesley Wandell who was aghast at Doctor Richards’ ability to doctor history:

“ I notice the interpolations because having been employed in the Historian’s office at Nauvoo by Doctor Richards, and employed, too, in 1845, in compiling this very autobiography, I know that after Joseph’s death his memoir was “doctored” to suit the new order of things, and this, too, by the direct order of Brigham Young to Doctor Richards and systematically by Richards.”

Inez Smith, “Biography of Charles Wesley Wandell,” J of His 3 (Jan. 1910): 455-63.

[Reluctant Watchman]

And he just happens to be the same man of whom Joseph allegedly “prophesied” that “the time would come that balls would fly around him like hail, and he should see his friends fall on the right and on the left, but that there should not be a hole in his garment.”

Only problem is, this “prophesy” appears nowhere in any journal, manuscript, paper, or anywhere during either Joseph Smith’s life or Willard Richards’ life (he dies in 1854)…

Even though Richards was the chief compiler of the “History of the Church” to his death, and the draft version of the “History” for the day of Joseph’s murder wasn’t written until after Richards’ death…. this “prophesy” still had not made an appearance… See here: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ust-1844/3

This “prophesy” doesn’t appear in the “History” until 2 years after Richards’ death in 1856. See here: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... t-1844/189

This is the 1st time this prophesy can be found… appearing out of thin air…

Yeah, I call BS

John Taylor seems to have wanted his own "miracle" as well by fabricating the "pocketwatch-saved-my-life" story. He wanted to have some tale he could retell that would lend credence to the hand of providence in saving his life.

[Refraction75]

Man this is weird stuff. You have Willard Richard's directly in contact with three Smith's before their ultimate deaths. Its like what are the odds....kinda like 9/11 and the Twin Towers falling then later that day building 7 collapsed. Kinda weird like that.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Man this is weird stuff. You have Willard Richard's directly in contact with three Smith's before their ultimate deaths. Its like what are the odds....kinda like 9/11 and the Twin Towers falling then later that day building 7 collapsed. Kinda weird like that.

From Hemlocknots.com:
"Samuel Smith is killed, after being given medicine by Hosea Stout, Nauvoo’s Chief of Police (with no formal medical training). William Smith and Samuel’s own daughter both accused Hosea Stout of poisoning Samuel Smith by the orders of Brigham Young and Willard Richards. Samuel was a significant contender expected to be the next President of the church, with the support of many in Nauvoo."
https://hemlockknots.com/assasination-t ... eph-smith/

From William Smith:
"I have good reason for believing that my brother Samuel H. Smith, died of poison at Nauvoo, administered by order of Brigham Young and Willard Richards, only a few weeks subsequent to the unlawful murder of my other brothers, Joseph and Hiram Smith, while incarcerated in Carthage jail.

"Several other persons who were presumed to stand between Brigham Young and the accomplishment of his ambitions and wicked designs, mysteriously disappeared from Nauvoo about the same time, and have never been heard from since." (William Smith, "Mormonism," letter to the “New York Tribune,” 28 May 1857)

"In private correspondence in 1892, William Smith further asserted that Willard Richards asked Hosea Stout (who happened to be Samuel's caretaker) to kill Samuel in order to prevent Samuel from taking office as Mormon Church president before the Quorum of the Twelve (which happened to be led by Brigham Young) could convene to handpick a successor." (William Smith, letter to "Bro. [ . . . ] Kelley,” 1 June 1892)

Samuel H. Smith's own daughter, Mary B. Smith, expressed her belief that her father and her uncle Arthur Milliken were simultaneously poisoned through the administration of a powdery toxin purported to be medicine--noting, as well, that the same doctors attended both men.

According to Mary, Milliken stopped taking the fatal substance but Samuel continued to the last dose, which "he spit out and said he was poisoned. But it was too late--he died."

(Mary B. Smith Norman, letter to Ina Coolbrith, 27 March 1908; the above citations found in "Samuel H. Smith (1808-1844)," under “Death and Succession Crisis,” in “Saints Without Halos,” at: http://www.saintswithouthalos.com/b/smith_s.phtm)

https://www.exmormon.org/d6/drupal/Pois ... el-H-Smith

[cab]

Man this is weird stuff. You have Willard Richard's directly in contact with three Smith's before their ultimate deaths. Its like what are the odds....kinda like 9/11 and the Twin Towers falling then later that day building 7 collapsed. Kinda weird like that.

Like I always say - our church’s history is more fascinating than any movie ever made.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Oh, wow, that's trippy how that relates to 9/11.

[Robin Hood]

Having discovered a number of discrepancies in the documentary, and having looked carefully at the evidence presented and alternative narratives to the one presented by the film maker, I messaged him with some of my observations.
Not had a reply yet.

I hope the lesson he learns is that it pays to spend more time looking carefully at alternative possibilities for the available evidence. He was far too quick to draw his conclusions.

It was a documentary to present a theory, not to write a novel... A theory has to have a conclusion, it's part of the research process. His theory is far more valid than any of the 6 theories he covered in the film. Present a better one than he did that includes the core narrative of WR and JT that doesn't make them look like complete fools, then I'd consider what you're saying.

A novel is fiction, so that would have been more appropriate.
His theory was not particularly well thought out. For example, it never occured to him that the "Hyrum shot" could have come from the stairwell. I know this because I have now heard back from him. This isn't rocket science.
He built the set to include only the room, but not the stairs or the landing. I mean is this guy an idiot or what! Maybe that's a little harsh... maybe he's just naive.
But the fact remains that if he was genuinely trying to reconstruct the events, he missed a significant portion of it out. In reality he was really only concerned with his theory, which he nicked from the 1990's RLDS guy's presentation.
However, to give the guy some some credit, he has been contacted by a number of people offering alternatives which fit the forensic evidence, and he has indicated to me that he may look at his theory again.
I think he needs to because it's only a matter of time before someone else produces a debunking video which will expose his flawed approach.