For those who want to know which is the one true religion

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
User avatar
Craig Johnson
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1991
Location: Washington State.

For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Craig Johnson »

In 1974 I was fasting and praying for quite some time to find the one true religion after I had spent A LOT of time reading everything I could find about different religions, listening to people of different religions talk about their religion, watching religionists on television preach and listening to atheists and college professors put down all forms of religion.
In 1960 I had found out God exists by doing a simple test that God responded to and showed me He does indeed exist.
So in 1974 I finally got around to trying to find the one true religion.
Because of God’s answer I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and have been since 1974.
Since then I have received many more answers from God and yet not once did He take from me my freedom to do what I want.
You can know that the gospel in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the one true religion in this world if you will humbly ask God.
He will tell you and you won’t have to be fooled by the words of lying humans.
Go to the source, discount everything till you get an answer.
If you are sincere you will get the answer.
Do what I did, don’t listen to anyone in your church, in your family, in your job, in your town, in your books, in your social websites, in your friendships or in anything or anywhere.
Ask God ONLY, so you won’t be fooled by liars.
God does not lie.

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Luke »

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the one true religion.

And it isn't tied to any organization, group, or man.

Godislove
captain of 100
Posts: 767

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Godislove »

Luke wrote: January 15th, 2022, 9:13 pm The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the one true religion.

And it isn't tied to any organization, group, or man.
Here's a great Article of Faith #4 which speaks of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The ordinances of baptism by immersion and receiving receiving gift of the Holy Ghost can only be administered by one in authority holding the proper Priesthood keys which are only found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Day Saints and these keys were restored through Joseph Smith.

762X545
captain of 100
Posts: 330

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by 762X545 »

The problem I have with this is that there have been millions of people who have tried this same experiment and felt differently. They have met with missionaries, read the literature, prayed and come to different conclusions as you. If this were the one true religion, and I'm not saying that it's not, then you would think that it would truly be like a rock cut out of the mountain. Unstoppable. Gathering speed as it rolls across the earth. That really isnt happening...anymore. There are millions of people who are seeking the truth. So my question is this. Why does God require us to complete this silly puzzle in order to find truth? Some say "well, you didn't pray ENOUGH." Or "you didn't study the scriptures DILLIGENTLY enough to receive the correct answer." Or one of a thousand excuses as to why their spiritual quest didn't line up to receive the answer that this is indeed the correct church. Excuses all of them. I cannot say that the LDS church is in fact THE church of God on earth. And believe me it isn't for lack of trying. I just find that it doesn't provide me with the fulfillment and the answers that the true church of God could provide. Is it an incorrect church? No. There are positive attributes in this church. I have found positive attributes in almost every church I attended. But still I am adrift in a spiritual sea trying to find something or someone who can show me the fullness of Gods plan. Without the greed, lies and deceptions of man. If a man was truly a prophet of God or if that man had truly found THE path to God, if it even exists, then their countenance would be so pure, their words so true and their knowledge so correct that you could not deny it if you were indeed seeking for it. I cannot find a man whos life has been so touched that he has set aside all earthly ideals and desires to follow the path of God. Today's church leaders are far from this.

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Luke »

Godislove wrote: January 15th, 2022, 10:11 pm
Luke wrote: January 15th, 2022, 9:13 pm The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the one true religion.

And it isn't tied to any organization, group, or man.
Here's a great Article of Faith #4 which speaks of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The ordinances of baptism by immersion and receiving receiving gift of the Holy Ghost can only be administered by one in authority holding the proper Priesthood keys which are only found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Day Saints and these keys were restored through Joseph Smith.
But here's the thing - authority is NOT limited to the LDS Church only. And Joseph himself taught as such.

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Amonhi »

Godislove wrote: January 15th, 2022, 10:11 pm
Luke wrote: January 15th, 2022, 9:13 pm The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the one true religion.

And it isn't tied to any organization, group, or man.
Here's a great Article of Faith #4 which speaks of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The ordinances of baptism by immersion and receiving receiving gift of the Holy Ghost can only be administered by one in authority holding the proper Priesthood keys which are only found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Day Saints and these keys were restored through Joseph Smith.
The article of faith you quoted said that the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are...

What are all the doctrines that make up the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the LDS Church?

How is it that so many people in the scriptures received the blessings associated with the ordinances without receiving the ordinances? For example people received the remission of sins without being baptized and the gift of the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands and priesthood power and authority from God directly and not through a man by the laying on of hands? Did God change so that for several thousand years He did things one way. But then for the last 200 years He decided to do things differently?

I wonder if you have received the answer that the church is true and then blindly accepted everything it teaches without comparing what it teaches to the scriptures it claims supports what it teaches.

Peace,
Amonhi

HVDC
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2600

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by HVDC »

I think people are asking the wrong question.

Instead of asking which church or religion is "true".

They should be simply asking.

Which church, if any, should they join.

That's what Joseph Smith did.

Might be surprised at the answer.

But no matter what the answer is.

It will be the right one for them.

And that is what is important.

Sir H

User avatar
TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5862
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by TheDuke »

Amonhi: It is a new dispensation. Each dispensation did almost everything differently. In Adams day, Adam's children, Noah, Abraham, Joseph in Egypt, Moses, Jesus, Nephites (pre & Post Christ), Jaredites. All taught different doctrines and had different organizations, some little if any formal priesthood, some formal on family lines, others formal by king or ruler. So, to say that because things are different in this the last dispensation is the only way it can be, at least if you were to understand the true purpose of this "creation" that Jesus and his Father put together here.

Just look at something like scriptures, we have them with Internet (JS papers, etc...) at our finger tips, before we had many, many books, before than (Guttenberg) we had a few hand written books for like the Cardinals, before that a few scrolls, hand written by monk scribes, before that, mostly word-of-mouth. Same with record keeping, buildings, temples, organizations, travel (look at how much effort Paul put into traveling, years on a single circuit).

Each dispensation is set up with tools at hand for those who live in that time. Sure, much of what is taught, especially given doctrines appear to be additive and upward (at least since the flood), allows us to learn from the past. More from NW than the OT, more from BoM than OT, more from JS than all previous. Wow, anyone who cannot see how this creation has been expanding right up to (and through) the millennium, can never really know what is the meaning of gospel truths. BTW we could go on and on with this, like from unnamed god, to Jehovah, Jesus, to trinity, to current understanding of CK. Everything grows, If you study long enough and god is willing (not sure his criteria, but I'm guessing eternal-level worthiness vs. in this life or last few years, combined with your mission in this life) then when the important mysteries are unfolded, you will see that "all truth may be circumscribed into one great whole" and it will all make sense.

The LDS church doesn't contain all truth, it isn't perfect, and even flawed (like all of us) but has the facilities to lead us to Christ and even further to his Father and even possibly our Father.

I can bash the church for its weaknesses both now and in the past, right from JS to RMN, but in the end, it has brought me to the presence of God himself. Wow, I'd be some kind of hypocrite to say it is apostate, and to all those that think so, I can only say that I'm sorry that you don't understand the entire purpose of this "creation" and why we are all dwelling a short time in Telestial bodies in a Telestial world where 1/3 part were marked as SoP potential, and it is said that Satan is the god of this world with all sincerity. Noting that being the god of this world, really means Babylon and will remain the dominant power with all righteousness being less dominant, until Christ reigns in the millennium.

For what it is worth.

User avatar
darknesstolight
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3865

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by darknesstolight »

The true Church is Chirst.

"18 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh."

Are you still living with your mother and father or have you married Christ?

You have to leave your mother and father and be one with Christ.

...

User avatar
Gadianton Slayer
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6551
Location: A Sound Mind

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

Godislove wrote: January 15th, 2022, 10:11 pm
Luke wrote: January 15th, 2022, 9:13 pm The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the one true religion.

And it isn't tied to any organization, group, or man.
Here's a great Article of Faith #4 which speaks of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The ordinances of baptism by immersion and receiving receiving gift of the Holy Ghost can only be administered by one in authority holding the proper Priesthood keys which are only found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Day Saints and these keys were restored through Joseph Smith.
This article of faith has been altered.

The keys and authority don’t reside in an organization run by wicked men who change the Lord’s doctrine and build themselves up on the backs of their members, ruling in unrighteous (and infallible) dominion.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15309
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

Godislove wrote: January 15th, 2022, 10:11 pm
Luke wrote: January 15th, 2022, 9:13 pm The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the one true religion.

And it isn't tied to any organization, group, or man.
Here's a great Article of Faith #4 which speaks of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The ordinances of baptism by immersion and receiving receiving gift of the Holy Ghost can only be administered by one in authority holding the proper Priesthood keys which are only found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Day Saints and these keys were restored through Joseph Smith.
I think we should stick with the original article of faith #4: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/article-of-faith-4

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15309
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

The first sign of trouble begins when you say “the only true religion”, and then you point to one aspect of religious expression. In this case, the LDS church.

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15309
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 15th, 2022, 11:47 pm It is a new dispensation…
Yet the same laws of apostasy still apply today. ;)

User avatar
Baurak Ale
Nauvoo Legion Captain
Posts: 1068
Location: The North Countries (Upper Midwest, USA)

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Baurak Ale »

Luke wrote: January 15th, 2022, 10:31 pm
Godislove wrote: January 15th, 2022, 10:11 pm
Luke wrote: January 15th, 2022, 9:13 pm The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the one true religion.

And it isn't tied to any organization, group, or man.
Here's a great Article of Faith #4 which speaks of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The ordinances of baptism by immersion and receiving receiving gift of the Holy Ghost can only be administered by one in authority holding the proper Priesthood keys which are only found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Day Saints and these keys were restored through Joseph Smith.
But here's the thing - authority is NOT limited to the LDS Church only. And Joseph himself taught as such.
I trust you have some good sources on this. I would be interested in them if you could share. DM if needed.

User avatar
Dusty Wanderer
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1411

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Dusty Wanderer »

Baurak Ale wrote: January 16th, 2022, 3:26 pm
Luke wrote: January 15th, 2022, 10:31 pm
Godislove wrote: January 15th, 2022, 10:11 pm
Luke wrote: January 15th, 2022, 9:13 pm The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the one true religion.

And it isn't tied to any organization, group, or man.
Here's a great Article of Faith #4 which speaks of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The ordinances of baptism by immersion and receiving receiving gift of the Holy Ghost can only be administered by one in authority holding the proper Priesthood keys which are only found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Day Saints and these keys were restored through Joseph Smith.
But here's the thing - authority is NOT limited to the LDS Church only. And Joseph himself taught as such.
I trust you have some good sources on this. I would be interested in them if you could share. DM if needed.
I would also be interested in them.

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Luke »

Baurak Ale wrote: January 16th, 2022, 3:26 pm
Luke wrote: January 15th, 2022, 10:31 pm
Godislove wrote: January 15th, 2022, 10:11 pm
Luke wrote: January 15th, 2022, 9:13 pm The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the one true religion.

And it isn't tied to any organization, group, or man.
Here's a great Article of Faith #4 which speaks of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The ordinances of baptism by immersion and receiving receiving gift of the Holy Ghost can only be administered by one in authority holding the proper Priesthood keys which are only found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Day Saints and these keys were restored through Joseph Smith.
But here's the thing - authority is NOT limited to the LDS Church only. And Joseph himself taught as such.
I trust you have some good sources on this. I would be interested in them if you could share. DM if needed.
Here’s somewhere to start:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=64390

User avatar
Redpilled Mormon
captain of 100
Posts: 664

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 16th, 2022, 12:55 pm
Godislove wrote: January 15th, 2022, 10:11 pm
Luke wrote: January 15th, 2022, 9:13 pm The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the one true religion.

And it isn't tied to any organization, group, or man.
Here's a great Article of Faith #4 which speaks of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The ordinances of baptism by immersion and receiving receiving gift of the Holy Ghost can only be administered by one in authority holding the proper Priesthood keys which are only found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Day Saints and these keys were restored through Joseph Smith.
I think we should stick with the original article of faith #4: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/article-of-faith-4
Thank you, your website is a treasure. I hadn't seen this before, and I really appreciated the simple way you laid it out. This is another of those 'blind spots' I didn't even know I had; I had no idea that the 4th article had been altered, but that alteration is incredibly important.

User avatar
TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5862
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by TheDuke »

Reluctant: not sure your point about apostacy. Sure, it hasn't changed, my point is that doctrine has changed. Absolutes like celestial, terrestrial, telestial, SoP requirements don't change, but depending on the immediate needs of the church, it appears the doctrines and teachings do. I mean it is obvious, we don't do animal sacrifice, we don't hand out authority from father to son (well some LDS tried that), we organize differently, we worship on a different day, we have different ordinances (even baptism isn't documented back to Moses or before and the claims of it being important to the masses, seems, well unfounded).

User avatar
Reluctant Watchman
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 15309
Location: “if thine eye offend thee, pluck him out.”
Contact:

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Reluctant Watchman »

TheDuke wrote: January 16th, 2022, 6:47 pm Reluctant: not sure your point about apostacy. Sure, it hasn't changed, my point is that doctrine has changed. Absolutes like celestial, terrestrial, telestial, SoP requirements don't change, but depending on the immediate needs of the church, it appears the doctrines and teachings do. I mean it is obvious, we don't do animal sacrifice, we don't hand out authority from father to son (well some LDS tried that), we organize differently, we worship on a different day, we have different ordinances (even baptism isn't documented back to Moses or before and the claims of it being important to the masses, seems, well unfounded).
No, the church teaches anti-Christian doctrine. They also taught, lived, promoted, then unpromoted abominable practices. Oh, and they may have killed the founder... I call that apostasy. But hey, that's just me. 😁

User avatar
Subcomandante
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4410

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Subcomandante »

The One True Religion:

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

User avatar
Gadianton Slayer
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6551
Location: A Sound Mind

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

🤔

67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Amonhi »

TheDuke wrote: January 15th, 2022, 11:47 pmAmonhi: It is a new dispensation. Each dispensation did almost everything differently. In Adams day, Adam's children, Noah, Abraham, Joseph in Egypt, Moses, Jesus, Nephites (pre & Post Christ), Jaredites. All taught different doctrines and had different organizations, some little if any formal priesthood, some formal on family lines, others formal by king or ruler. So, to say that because things are different in this the last dispensation is the only way it can be, at least if you were to understand the true purpose of this "creation" that Jesus and his Father put together here.
There are minor differences between the laws in each dispensation and they even change within the dispensation as needed, however, the laws from any dispensation cannot save us and are always administered by the Aaronic priesthood.

The Aaronic priesthood has always administered the laws and provided judges to judge people against the laws. The name for the law was known as the Law of Moses from Moses to Christ in both the Book of Mormon and the Bible just as the lessor priesthood received its new name at the time it was given to Aaron from Moses, but it is the same priesthood we have today and it was around since Adam. Baptism is always performed by the Aaronic priesthood even when a Melchizedek priesthood holder performs it, just as a Bishop is always a calling in the Aaronic priesthood even when a Melchizedek priesthood holder fills the office.

When Adam was around it wasn't called the Aaronic priesthood yet because Aaron hadn't been born or received it yet. We still call it Aaronic today because it is the same authority with the same rights and responsiblities today as when Aaron received it. Even in this dispensation, when talking to JS in D&C 22 the Lord said that Baptism performed by the Aaronic priesthood is part of the Law of Moses and that we can't enter in at the gate by the Law of Moses and further clarified that "the church today is built up even as days of old", meaning nothing has changed from the previous dispensation.
D&C 22
1 Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.
2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.
3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.
The Melchizedek priesthood was taken away from the people in general from Moses to Christ, but it was still given to every prophet by God directly. In a similar way that Nephi received the sealing power in Hel 10. How is that any different than happens today? 

Today, we lay hands on someone and say we given them the priesthood, but then we see the undeniable truth taught by the Lord in D&C 132 that nothing men do becomes valid without God's approval. Specifically the Lord tells JS (who has the most priesthood power a person can have), "will I receive at your hand something I have not appointed?" Of course not. God must give every person true priesthood directly today as much as Moses day.

And we are told in D&C 121 that if a priesthood holder commits sin and tries to hide it or exercises any degree of unrighteous dominion that the spirit is grieved and when it leaves amen to the priesthood of that man, which tells us the the Lord can also take away the priesthood without man even knowing about it. So God remains in complete control over the priesthood today just as He has from the beginning.

Here is the biggest take away from this reply... The requirements for every blessing were set and established by unalterable decree before the foundations of the world.
D&C 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
This means that the requirements we must meet for the remission of sins was decided in heaven before the foundations of this world and irrevocably decreed and cannot be changed regardless of which dispensation we are in. Same goes for the requirements for the gift of the Holy Ghost and for qualifying for each and every kingdom and every blessing God has to give to His children. The requirements for every blessing was decided and irrevocably decreed in heaven before Adam was placed on the earth and remain in place until the final judgement and forever after.

Likewise, We know that God is bound to give the gift when we do what He says and meet the requirements of the blessings. He can't and won't hold back the blessings as soon as we qualify because He is bound to honor that eternal decree.

What this means is that when we read in the scriptures that someone received the blessing we call "the remission of sins" without being baptized, or they receive the gift of the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands, then we know that they have met the irrevocable criteria decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world that we must all meet. There are NO special circumstances, when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. One one gets a pass and gets to bypass those requirements. Since this is true, we know that because people can receive the blessings of the gospel, when the church is apostate and the priesthood doesn't exist and physical ordinances are not performed, then we know that the church and its priesthood and physical ordinances are not required for anyone to receive the blessings. They are helpful because the power of God is not MANIFEST without the ordinances showing us symbolic sign posts that represent the spiritual, but even when the power of God is not manifest, it still exists and operates.
Definition of MANIFEST
1: readily perceived by the senses and especially by the sense of sight
Their sadness was manifest in their faces.
2: easily understood or recognized by the mind : OBVIOUS
Why the Lord said He uses ordinances:
D&C 84
20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.
21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;
You can't see someone receive the remission of sins because it happens inside of them by the spirit. So, the Lord commanded that we baptize people AFTER they have received the remission of sins.
D&C 20
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

3 Nephi 7
25 Therefore, there were ordained of Nephi, men unto this ministry, that all such as should come unto them should be baptized with water, and this as a witness and a testimony before God, and unto the people, that they had repented and received a remission of their sins.
The physical ordinances performed by men holding the priesthood manifest the spiritual ordinances performed by God which are the only ones that actually count for anything.

Same goes for the Gift of the Holy Ghost. It can be and has been received without the laying on of hands and even before baptism as happened in Acts 10:44-48, Hel. 5 and every person who had it from Moses to Christ in the Bible and Nephi to Christ in the Book of Mormon when the Melchizedek priesthood was removed and no one have the authority to lay hands on for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Same with the priesthood of Elijah and Elisha and 3rd Nephi. Look how 3rd Nephi received the Sealing power by the voice of God in his mind, (Hel. 10:3-12). He met the criteria and received the blessing and no one could see it because it was given by the voice of God without a physical ordinance to manifest the unseen spiritual reality. He still had the full blessing of the sealing power even though there was no physical ordinance because the law on which the blessing is given is not based on the requirement of the laying on of hands by a man who already has the sealing power.

The law on which blessings are predicated do not change from one dispensation to another. The plan of salvation hasn't changed from the beginning, neither has the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the same as it was for Nephi and Moses and Adam. We learn the requirements for a person to enter each kingdom of glory and to be resurrected in the two resurrections in D&C 76 and those requirements haven't changed between dispensations.

The biggest change between before Christ and after Christ is animal Sacrifices which was replaced by the sacrament, both performed by the Aaronic priesthood in similitude and remembrance of Christ's Sacrifice. But we all know that the law of Moses including its ordinances performed by the Aaronic priesthood like baptism and animal sacrifice can't save anyone and never has. So, we know that baptism by the authority of the Aaronic priesthood as was performed by Aaron and John the Baptist is not required for salvation. Neither was animal sacrifices performed by the same priesthood authority which cannot save.

Baptism is performed by the same priesthood authority in the same way as was done under the Law of Moses. It couldn't save them then and it can't save us today. The sacrament is performed today by the same priesthood that performed Animal Sacrifices and provides the same constant reminder of the body and blood of Christ and is performed for the same reason. Just as animal sacrifices couldn't save them then, the sacrament can't save us now. The 10 commandments and other laws that were administered by the Aaronic priesthood and judged by the common judge of Israel, (we call a Bishop), in the Old Testament had no power to save then just as they, along with the modern changes to the law we are given today, have no power to save us. We can't be saved by the Aaronic priesthood principles or ordinances and no one ever has. We aren't sealed as a result of going to the temple or else the wicked who lie their way into the temple would receive the blessings they haven't earned.

God hasn't changed anything except cosmetic things that have no real relevance one way or the other. If you can't see that, then you can't possibly see the path that everyone must walk back to the Father. God didn't change any requirements since before Adam and God can't change the requirements because they were given by irrevocable decree in heaven before the foundations of the world. If He did change something, then He would be a liar and a respecter of persons who tells one person that they only have to do X but others that they must do x, y and z to receive the same blessings.

Next topic, The fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ:
Repeatedly in the D&C the Lord tells us that the fulness of His Gospel is contained and taught in the Book of Mormon. Moroni even told Joseph Smith that the book was so cool because it had a record of Jesus teaching the fulness of his gospel and that it is relevant to us today as much as then.
JSH 1
34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
The fulness of the Gospel that we are supposed to be teaching in this Church is contained in the Book of Mormon.
D&C 20
8 And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;
9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;

D&C 42
12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.

D&C 27
5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim;

D&C 135
3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!
So, what is fulness of the Gospel that is contained in the Book of Mormon?
What is the fulness of the Gospel as taught by the LDS Church today when it says, "the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are..."? (What are the second principles and ordinances of the gospel?)

Next:
Everything grows, If you study long enough and god is willing (not sure his criteria, but I'm guessing eternal-level worthiness vs. in this life or last few years, combined with your mission in this life) then when the important mysteries are unfolded, you will see that "all truth may be circumscribed into one great whole" and it will all make sense.
Our knowledge grows, but the truth does not. It is eternal. The requirements for every blessing were set by an unchangeable decree from before the foundation of the world and if we receive any blessings it is by obedience to that original decree.
They great whole is understanding that all truths is organized into spheres or kingdoms. Truth is only relevant and true within its sphere. All murderer, liars and the like go to the Telestial kingdom where they live by Telestial truths which keep that kingdom in its place. For example in that kingdom a truth is that everyone is judged by their works without grace.

The truths that apply to the Terrestrial Kingdom are not the same and so people live differently there and have a different way of life. For example a truth relevant in the Terrestial Kingdom is that everyone receives grace without works. They are all forgiven by the atonement on the merits of Christ alone who is mighty to save. They are not judged by their works but receive grace and covered by the atonement since they received the testimony of Christ.

The Celestial live a different type of life because they accept and live by different truths which do not apply to the other kingdoms. For example, a truth they live by is that no man can or ought to suffer for another man and each person must take up their own cross and follow Christ's example. (See D&C 132:26-27, Matt. 16:24-25).

Those in outer darkness live by the worst set of truths which determine what life is like in that sphere. For example they live by the principle of power which means that they dominate according to the power they can gain over others using fear, manipulation, threats, unrighteous dominion, etc.

Seeing all the truths together and understanding which sphere a truth belongs to is "the one great whole". When we read the scriptures, we need to ask ourselves are these verses applied to a Telestial, Terrestrial or Celestial people? The Law of Moses was given to a Telestial people. The gate by which we enter is the transition from Telestial to Terrestrial at which point the remission of sins and the Holy Ghost are given to Terrestrial people. Telestial people never receive the remission of sins or the Holy Ghost.

We learn in the Temple that Adam started in a Terrestrial state and while there he didn't have and didn't need a Savior. Then he fell to a Telestial state and a Savior was provided. Well, guess what, When people are Telestial, they are under the law and need a Savior.
Gal. 4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
All the principles and ordinances taught by the Aaronic priesthood are for Telestial people. They include things like the law, sin, repentance, remission of sins, baptism, Judgement, etc. These principles and ordinances are only relevant to Telestial people. Take away the law and you can't sin. Without sin, you can't repent, without repentance and sin, baptism for the remission of sins doesn't apply or make sense. These principles/truths are truths in the Telestial world but not in the Terrestrial world where the law is removed and we are returned to a state like Adam in the Garden of Eden was in in which he could not sin.

Here are a few of the scriptures that teach all of these principles/truths must coexist in the same sphere together.
2 Nephi 9:25
25 Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation;

Alma 42:17
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

2 Nephi 2:13
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin

Romans 7:8-9
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed (assigned ) when there is no law.

Alma 42:21
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

Romans 3:20
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1 Corinthians 15:56
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Some scriptures apply to Telestial people like Adam after the fall.
Galatians 5:4
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Here are a few scriptures that apply to Terrestrial People:
Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal. 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Moroni 8:22-24
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

Romans 2:12
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

John 3:6-10
6 Whosoever abideth in him (Christ) sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Moroni 7:6-11
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.
That is how all truth is circumscribed into one great whole. Once you see it, you will begin to see which truths apply to which kingdoms easily and why you can't have Telestial truths in a Terrestrial or Celestial kingdom.


Next:
The LDS church doesn't contain all truth, it isn't perfect, and even flawed (like all of us) but has the facilities to lead us to Christ and even further to his Father and even possibly our Father.
In the book of Mormon Jesus said it is his church if it is called in his name and teaches his gospel and only then will it show forth the works of the Father.
3 Nephi 27
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
9 Verily I say unto you, that ye are built upon my gospel; therefore ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call, in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you;
10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.
So what is the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the LDS Church? It says that the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are... what are the all the rest that the church claims to be the doctrines that make up the fulness of his gospel? 
I can bash the church for its weaknesses both now and in the past, right from JS to RMN, but in the end, it has brought me to the presence of God himself.
I thought it did me too, but I realized over time and with study and revelation that I received what I have by not relying on the church or men in authority but by relying on God, just as every person who has come to God in every dispensation has. In fact, the church teaches many things that obscure the path and cause confusion and blind people with craftiness. Remember Simeon and Anna who lived and worshiped in the corrupted church when Christ was born? They had the spirit and were led to Christ and prophesied by the spirit at the temple when they met Christ. They got there even though the Church and its leadership were already corrupt and didn't have the spirit. So did I. I'm glad I grew up in the church. I came to God by following the spirit, not by following the church or the leaders.
Wow, I'd be some kind of hypocrite to say it is apostate, and to all those that think so
Jesus worshiped in the church and called the leaders hypocrites and vipers and said they were filled with dead men's bones. But that fallen church is what Jesus was raised in. He like Semeon and Anna became holy and righteous in spite of the church and what it taught and did not because of it. Would you criticize Jesus?
I can only say that I'm sorry that you don't understand the entire purpose of this "creation" and why we are all dwelling a short time in Telestial bodies in a Telestial world where 1/3 part were marked as SoP potential, and it is said that Satan is the god of this world with all sincerity. Noting that being the god of this world, really means Babylon and will remain the dominant power with all righteousness being less dominant, until Christ reigns in the millennium.
For what it is worth.
Can you please provide me with a reference that says 1/3 of the people born to this earth are marked as being potential Sons of Perdition? That would require that over 1/3rd are capable of making their calling and election sure which is a requirement for becoming a Son of Perdition since it is not possible to fall to that station without the knowledge that comes to those who are Celestial.
Alma 32
18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.
19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?
To be a Son of perdition, you have to first gain knowledge beyond faith and then turn against that knowledge. This is not possible to do while operating by faith without knowledge. joseph Smith pointed this out saying,
All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it.
Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Amonhi »

Reluctant Watchman wrote: January 16th, 2022, 12:55 pm
Godislove wrote: January 15th, 2022, 10:11 pm
Luke wrote: January 15th, 2022, 9:13 pm The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the one true religion.

And it isn't tied to any organization, group, or man.
Here's a great Article of Faith #4 which speaks of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The ordinances of baptism by immersion and receiving receiving gift of the Holy Ghost can only be administered by one in authority holding the proper Priesthood keys which are only found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Day Saints and these keys were restored through Joseph Smith.
I think we should stick with the original article of faith #4: https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/article-of-faith-4
Exactly. Thank you!

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Amonhi »

Luke wrote: January 16th, 2022, 5:05 pm
Baurak Ale wrote: January 16th, 2022, 3:26 pm
Luke wrote: January 15th, 2022, 10:31 pm
Godislove wrote: January 15th, 2022, 10:11 pm

Here's a great Article of Faith #4 which speaks of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The ordinances of baptism by immersion and receiving receiving gift of the Holy Ghost can only be administered by one in authority holding the proper Priesthood keys which are only found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Day Saints and these keys were restored through Joseph Smith.
But here's the thing - authority is NOT limited to the LDS Church only. And Joseph himself taught as such.
I trust you have some good sources on this. I would be interested in them if you could share. DM if needed.
Here’s somewhere to start:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=64390
Excellent!

Here's another set of references. It is a study of how every prophet in the Bible was called by God to be a prophet and received calling and authority to minister.
Prophets, How they’re Called
Notice that even when the church has been organized with righteous leadership, God still called prophets directly, and not through the church or the leadership. For example, Eli was a righteous high priest over the church and prophesied of Samuel's birth. According to moden LDS teaching, the Lord would talk to Eli and have Eli call Samuel to be a prophet, but the Lord didn't even tell Eli what he was going to do, He bypassed the righteous church leadership and called to Samuel directly. Samuel had to tell Eli what the Lord said. That is bottom up rather than top down. That's how God has always worked and you can see this over and over in the scriptures and it is very clear in the study linked above as you go through every prophet in the bible (and a few in the BoM) and see how God called them.

Peace,
Amonhi

User avatar
Wondering Wendy
captain of 100
Posts: 475
Location: The Secret Place

Re: For those who want to know which is the one true religion

Post by Wondering Wendy »

Amonhi wrote: January 17th, 2022, 12:52 am
OK, so in the terrestrial sphere there is no repentance? I understand we are no longer under the law but following the spirit. However, we are still not made perfect.

What happens if we still commit transgressions? Meaning we get prideful or we disobey a command of the spirit. Do we still not need to repent of these things? Is there a different process?

Also, while I understand that we cannot atone for anyone else’s sins, aren’t we still supposed to pray for others? Even asking the Lord to forgive them and have mercy?

Like Moses standing in the gap, our intercession on their behalf may give them more time on earth to repent. I ask this because this is what the Lord is having me do, several times a day.

Post Reply