POLL: Which will come first: gay temple marriage, or women getting the priesthood?

[madvin]

Whoever voted “The church would never change their sacred ordinances like this!” is incredibly and unbelievably blind.

Definitely not blind, but don't think those ordinances will be changed. Women "holding the priesthood" will happen but not until after the second coming.

[bjornagain]

They have really already started giving women the priesthood, in bits and pieces. This is how they make all of their Babylonian changes, by tiny degrees, so nobody says anything.

But, I also suspect they have already started doing secret gay sealings here and there as well.

[Chamberlain]

Clearly that comment was tongue-in-cheek

I’m not so sure about that…

It was.

Thank goodness. I never know anymore… seen a lot of strange opinions on here…

"Wives, submit yourself unto your husbands, as unto the Lord."
"for the husband is head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church"

It is a women's duty and calling to be submissive and obey her husband and to have faith.
There is no such thing as 'blind faith', there is only faith and the confirmation of the Holy Spirit.
This is also confirmed in the creation stories, man made from his image (God's).
God -> Men -> Women -> Children
God teaches the man true love, who teaches the woman true love who teaches the children true love. This is the only way to learn true love and is how He designed it.

The changes to the wedding vows are just more liberal plagues that are infesting the 'church' and blaspheming the gospel. Its nothing new and has been occurring for decades now.

Women taking the 'priesthood' for themselves will occur before lgbt 'sealings', you can already see how these Relief Society leaders covet it and resent their matriarchal duties. Women let their egos drive them these days and LDS women are not exempt.

Overcome your mothers and be born of the Father.

[Gadianton Slayer]

There is no such thing as 'blind faith', there is only faith and the confirmation of the Holy Spirit.

Trusting in a man without question and without a confirmation of the Spirit is blind faith, Christ’s counsel in 2 Nephi 28:31 applies to everyone, even women. Same with the JST of Mark 9, where Christ teaches us to cut off those who transgress (which would include a husband).

The idea that a woman must submit to a man as if he were god is laughable, but I guess you can justify anything your heart desires.

[Chamberlain]

There is no such thing as 'blind faith', there is only faith and the confirmation of the Holy Spirit.

Trusting in a man without question and without a confirmation of the Spirit is blind faith, Christ’s counsel in 2 Nephi 28:31 applies to everyone, even women. Same with the JST of Mark 9, where Christ teaches us to cut off those who transgress (which would include a husband).

The idea that a woman must submit to a man as if he were god is laughable, but I guess you can justify anything your heart desires.

Then you laugh and mock God's teachings, a shame really and this is why the 'church' and world is in the circumstance its in. Because you mock and laugh at God and his teachings.

The scriptures you mentioned both validate what I said. Women must trust in God have faith in his teachings, receive the validation of the Holy Spirit, obey their husbands and learn true love. That is the standard.

The teaching of women to not obey their husbands is to go in opposition of God's teachings.
Under God's laws the family was secure, father were patriarchs, mothers were matriarchs and the children were loved and learned true love.
Under your perversion divorce rates are rampant, families are destroyed, women turn their children against their fathers, and children become their mothers and never learn true love.

Overcome the mother and be born of the Father.

[Gadianton Slayer]

The scriptures you mentioned both validate what I said. Women must trust in God have faith in his teachings, receive the validation of the Holy Spirit, obey their husbands and learn true love. That is the standard.

Nope. What you said is blind obedience, that a woman must obey her husband without question. That is precisely the anti-Christ doctrine that started my journey out of the church. They took the abusive version of a patriarchal system and ran to a whole new level. Instead of just the wife being blindly obedient to her husband, now ALL members must be blindly obedient to the brethren.

What Christ taught in the two places I shared is that you must take all things to God and cut off those who transgress. If women acted as you suggest they should, they would be cursed.

The teaching of women to not obey their husbands is to go in opposition of God's teachings.

Hearkening unto the precepts of man without a confirmation of the Spirit is a curse. Christ was very clear about that.

Under God's laws the family was secure, father were patriarchs, mothers were matriarchs and the children were loved and learned true love.

Nothing I've said contradicts this.

[Chamberlain]

Nope. What you said is blind obedience

You finally admit its not 'blind faith'? (which doesn't exist by the way, 'blind faith' is newspeak nonsense)

What Christ taught in the two places I shared is that you must take all things to God and cut off those who transgress. If women acted as you suggest they should, they would be cursed.

Women obeying their husbands is not a precept of man, that is what you don't understand.

Hearkening unto the precepts of man without a confirmation of the Spirit is a curse. Christ was very clear about that.

You will not be cursed for following the teachings of God.
You're a women I take it?

Instead of just the wife being blindly obedient to her husband, now ALL members must be blindly obedient to the brethren.

I don't concern myself with your beast loving brethren. As a man who is born of the Father, the only one I'm obedient to is Him.

[Gadianton Slayer]

You finally admit its not 'blind faith'? (which doesn't exist by the way, 'blind faith' is newspeak nonsense)

True, blind faith isn't faith at all. I admit my error. But what you are teaching is blind obedience, so let's use that phrase.

Women obeying their husbands is not a precept of man, that is what you don't understand.

No, but everything that the husband says is a precept of man. The woman must follow the Spirit above her husband, just as Christ directed in 2 Nephi 28.

You will not be cursed for following the teachings of God.

If only we all agreed about what they actually are...

You're a women I take it?

Last I checked, no. I won't be proving it to you

I don't concern myself with your beast loving brethren.

Looks like we agree here.

[Sarah]

Nope. What you said is blind obedience

You finally admit its not 'blind faith'? (which doesn't exist by the way, 'blind faith' is newspeak nonsense)

What Christ taught in the two places I shared is that you must take all things to God and cut off those who transgress. If women acted as you suggest they should, they would be cursed.

Women obeying their husbands is not a precept of man, that is what you don't understand.

Hearkening unto the precepts of man without a confirmation of the Spirit is a curse. Christ was very clear about that.

You will not be cursed for following the teachings of God.
You're a women I take it?

Instead of just the wife being blindly obedient to her husband, now ALL members must be blindly obedient to the brethren.

I don't concern myself with your beast loving brethren. As a man who is born of the Father, the only one I'm obedient to is Him.

A man "born of the father" as you say, would understand that nothing he obtains in eternity is through compulsion - it comes to him by free choice of others. No one is going to spend time with you in the next life because they have to, or because they feel they will be punished if they don't. Telling a woman that it is her duty to do this or that, and acting entitled, is only going to make you single in the next life.

Think about it. Do you want your wife to stay with you out of duty, or do you want her to want to be with you? Do you want her to have sex with you because it is her duty, or do you want her to love having sex with you? Do you want your wife to listen to your opinions, advice, or feelings out of a sense of duty and fear, or do you want her to do it because she genuinely loves listening to you, and helping you when you really are in need of help. It's really up to YOU how the women around you treat you. People will treat you like you treat them. How you treat others, will determine who wants to be with you for eternity, not some statement made by Paul. I can guarantee, that if you try to tell any woman that it is her duty to love you, and act entitled to anything, she is going to say goodbye, I'm going with the next guy who treats me as his equal, true friend and partner, and doesn't act like an entitled victim.

[Chamberlain]

Think about it. Do you want your wife to stay with you out of duty, or do you want her to want to be with you? Do you want her to have sex with you because it is her duty, or do you want her to love having sex with you? Do you want your wife to listen to your opinions, advice, or feelings out of a sense of duty and fear, or do you want her to do it because she genuinely loves listening to you, and helping you when you really are in need of help.

I'd want my wife to procreate and pair bond with me, to glorify God.
I'd want my wife to rear my children, to glorify God.
I'd want my wife to obey me, to glorify God.
I'd want my wife to love me, to glorify God.

I advocate other women do the same, and their husbands encourage it as well, because it glorifies God. Its apart of our role as men and women, it is how He created us and the order He set for us.

Its a jarring statement today, to mention a women's duty to obey their husbands. It is a principal that has been virtually abandoned and degraded in all aspects of society, Christian or otherwise. The mention of it exposes the ego that these women are unable to let go of. It is a lesson that must be learned to be able to learn true love.

Same for men. If a man does not understand that his wife should obey him, is he a man worth obeying? He has not been born of the Father, he is born of his mother.

Our feminized society has created many such men and women.
It is a lesson men and women must both learn, together.

[NewEliza]

Gay sealings will NEVER happen.

Ending Celestial Plural Marriage will NEVER happen.

Giving blacks the Priesthood will NEVER happen.

Becoming one with Babylon will NEVER happen.

Always the same sayings.

Blacks were being given the priesthood during Joseph Smith's lifetime and then it was taken away from them. One of the earliest seventies was black.

So may it should be "taking the priesthood away from blacks and then giving it back to them will NEVER happen," or "removing the priesthood from blacks for the LDS to kiss up to the slave-owning states will NEVER happen"

Elijah Abel, ordained 1836, who became a seventy and also served several missions. The man is quite visibly black and not just someone who could "pass" as white. The lips and nose are a giveaway. Joseph Smith was well aware of him, according to records, since he appointed him a mortician in Nauvoo.


The Kirtland Temple also admitted blacks.

It was also going on through the supposed ban, if one subscribes to the "one drop" theory, which makes the whole thing more ludicrous. Because the people who ordained such people didn't have the discernment to guess who did and who didn't have black ancestry. Often the men themselves wouldn't know until they found out through family history research. These things were often deliberately hidden in families. This was especially the case in Brazil, where most people have some black ancestry (but may not know it). Also the case in places like Argentina, which once had a substantial black population which was effectively bred out by intermarrying with the much larger white population, and whose descendants are pretty much invisible.

There are people in England who don't know they have some black ancestry, particularly if it was back in the 18th and 19th centuries, way back before living memory... so it may have even happened in your stake. The north west of England, around Liverpool especially, had such people, and was one of the earliest areas to be proselytised by the LDS. Bristol and London also have very old lines going back there.

I don't have any black ancestry I know of. I also don't have any slave owners or traders in my ancestry, which is something I point out to anyone who tries the woke anti-white card on me.

Do you know the rest of the Elijah Abel story? He had his priesthood removed. They left that part out of the new books

[Sarah]

Think about it. Do you want your wife to stay with you out of duty, or do you want her to want to be with you? Do you want her to have sex with you because it is her duty, or do you want her to love having sex with you? Do you want your wife to listen to your opinions, advice, or feelings out of a sense of duty and fear, or do you want her to do it because she genuinely loves listening to you, and helping you when you really are in need of help.

I'd want my wife to procreate and pair bond with me, to glorify God.
I'd want my wife to rear my children, to glorify God.
I'd want my wife to obey me, to glorify God.
I'd want my wife to love me, to glorify God.

I advocate other women do the same, and their husbands encourage it as well, because it glorifies God. Its apart of our role as men and women, it is how He created us and the order He set for us.

Its a jarring statement today, to mention a women's duty to obey their husbands. It is a principal that has been virtually abandoned and degraded in all aspects of society, Christian or otherwise. The mention of it exposes the ego that these women are unable to let go of. It is a lesson that must be learned to be able to learn true love.

Same for men. If a man does not understand that his wife should obey him, is he a man worth obeying? He has not been born of the Father, he is born of his mother.

Our feminized society has created many such men and women.
It is a lesson men and women must both learn, together.

Well, that's your choice I guess, to only accept women in your life who will cater to your every whim. Good luck! Hopefully you'll discover the joy of pleasing your wife as well. Will you answer the question that no man seems to want to answer - what are specific examples of ways a wife should obey her husband?

[Chamberlain]

Will you answer the question that no man seems to want to answer - what are specific examples of ways a wife should obey her husband?

Well rearing my children would probably be #1 example.
It is a priority of mine to be able to provide for my wife and kids without her having the pressure of working as well, even if that means living humbly.
Its not an easy thing to do in American society, which basically demands both parents work to make ends meet.
I'd want her priority to be rearing children and not have to sacrifice her duties as a mother for a soulless job or company.
You know like stay home have, lots of babies, nurse them, play games with them, teach them morals, etc...

Another one would be to live without any anger or resentment, which is of the devil.

[Sarah]

Will you answer the question that no man seems to want to answer - what are specific examples of ways a wife should obey her husband?

Well rearing my children would probably be #1 example.
It is a priority of mine to be able to provide for my wife and kids without her having the pressure of working as well, even if that means living humbly.
Its not an easy thing to do in American society, which basically demands both parents work to make ends meet.
I'd want her priority to be rearing children and not have to sacrifice her duties as a mother for a soulless job or company.
You know like stay home have, lots of babies, nurse them, play games with them, teach them morals, etc...

Another one would be to live without any anger or resentment, which is of the devil.

Okay, those are good desires. Let's say a wife wants those things, and the man does not. (I've known plenty of lds men who wanted to delay having kids, have their wife work, at least until he was able to provide sufficiently, and/or limit the number of children). Should a husband obey or follow the lead of his wife if she desires these things and he doesn't? What do you think the Lord would have him do, follow his own will, or hearken to his wife?

[Chamberlain]

(I've known plenty of lds men who wanted to delay having kids, have their wife work, at least until he was able to provide sufficiently, and/or limit the number of children). Should a husband obey or follow the lead of his wife if she desires these things and he doesn't? What do you think the Lord would have him do, follow his own will, or hearken to his wife?

Yeah, effeminate men (aka betas) are a really big problem in today's society.

Let's assume the man in this case is putting his faith in his money (worshipping mammon) rather than his faith in God.

It brings into question what the foundations of the marriage are... for example, the man got married while he was bonded to his debtor and couldn't fully serve God? Is such a man actually born of the Father?
The women chose a man in bondage and knew he couldn't serve God? There was no conversation before hand on when the procreation of children was going to occur?
Did she marry him to be his mother or to be his wife?
Young adults in such a marriage situation are driven more by lust and a lack of self control, rather than true love. Which is why divorce rates are so high today, LDS marriages not being exempt. They rather take the 'easy way' (devil's way) rather than following God.
(Contraceptives add a whole new layer of complexity and immorality to the situation that makes it even worse, I'll put it short and say that they must be avoided at all costs!)

Nevertheless, all is not lost.
My advice for this specific situation. More than ever women, OBEY YOUR HUSBANDS!
Women hate needy men, this is a reality. By undermining his position as a patriarch you will only grow to resent him more.
Did you marry to be his mother or his wife?

Encourage him, but do NOT act like his mother! This is the opposite of what he needs.
Remind him that you are relying on him and you need him to stop acting like a beta for your sake. He must be become a man.

Do not live with resentment, do not live with anger! Reject those and be born of the Father, live by the Holy Spirit whom brings no anger, but peace and love.
Have faith in God.

[Sarah]

(I've known plenty of lds men who wanted to delay having kids, have their wife work, at least until he was able to provide sufficiently, and/or limit the number of children). Should a husband obey or follow the lead of his wife if she desires these things and he doesn't? What do you think the Lord would have him do, follow his own will, or hearken to his wife?

Yeah, effeminate men (aka betas) are a really big problem in today's society.

Let's assume the man in this case is putting his faith in his money (worshipping mammon) rather than his faith in God.

It brings into question what the foundations of the marriage are... for example, the man got married while he was bonded to his debtor and couldn't fully serve God? Is such a man actually born of the Father?
The women chose a man in bondage and knew he couldn't serve God? There was no conversation before hand on when the procreation of children was going to occur?
Did she marry him to be his mother or to be his wife?
Young adults in such a marriage situation are driven more by lust and a lack of self control, rather than true love. Which is why divorce rates are so high today, LDS marriages not being exempt. They rather take the 'easy way' (devil's way) rather than following God.
(Contraceptives add a whole new layer of complexity and immorality to the situation that makes it even worse, I'll put it short and say that they must be avoided at all costs!)

Nevertheless, all is not lost.
My advice for this specific situation. More than ever women, OBEY YOUR HUSBANDS!
Women hate needy men, this is a reality. By undermining his position as a patriarch you will only grow to resent him more.
Did you marry to be his mother or his wife?

Encourage him, but do NOT act like his mother! This is the opposite of what he needs.
Remind him that you are relying on him and you need him to stop acting like a beta for your sake. He must be become a man.

Do not live with resentment, do not live with anger! Reject those and be born of the Father, live by the Holy Spirit whom brings no anger, but peace and love.
Have faith in God.

Guess what! The man who believes his wife has a duty to accommodate his wishes, will be the man who comes across as needy. And indeed women don't like needy men. I'll let you think on that and explain in the morning

[Niemand]

Gay sealings will NEVER happen.

Ending Celestial Plural Marriage will NEVER happen.

Giving blacks the Priesthood will NEVER happen.

Becoming one with Babylon will NEVER happen.

Always the same sayings.

Blacks were being given the priesthood during Joseph Smith's lifetime and then it was taken away from them. One of the earliest seventies was black.

So may it should be "taking the priesthood away from blacks and then giving it back to them will NEVER happen," or "removing the priesthood from blacks for the LDS to kiss up to the slave-owning states will NEVER happen"

Elijah Abel, ordained 1836, who became a seventy and also served several missions. The man is quite visibly black and not just someone who could "pass" as white. The lips and nose are a giveaway. Joseph Smith was well aware of him, according to records, since he appointed him a mortician in Nauvoo.


The Kirtland Temple also admitted blacks.

It was also going on through the supposed ban, if one subscribes to the "one drop" theory, which makes the whole thing more ludicrous. Because the people who ordained such people didn't have the discernment to guess who did and who didn't have black ancestry. Often the men themselves wouldn't know until they found out through family history research. These things were often deliberately hidden in families. This was especially the case in Brazil, where most people have some black ancestry (but may not know it). Also the case in places like Argentina, which once had a substantial black population which was effectively bred out by intermarrying with the much larger white population, and whose descendants are pretty much invisible.

There are people in England who don't know they have some black ancestry, particularly if it was back in the 18th and 19th centuries, way back before living memory... so it may have even happened in your stake. The north west of England, around Liverpool especially, had such people, and was one of the earliest areas to be proselytised by the LDS. Bristol and London also have very old lines going back there.

I don't have any black ancestry I know of. I also don't have any slave owners or traders in my ancestry, which is something I point out to anyone who tries the woke anti-white card on me.

Do you know the rest of the Elijah Abel story? He had his priesthood removed. They left that part out of the new books

It's not about that but what came beforehand. A massive oversight in some sense, but it shows they did a U-turn.

[Sarah]

(I've known plenty of lds men who wanted to delay having kids, have their wife work, at least until he was able to provide sufficiently, and/or limit the number of children). Should a husband obey or follow the lead of his wife if she desires these things and he doesn't? What do you think the Lord would have him do, follow his own will, or hearken to his wife?

Yeah, effeminate men (aka betas) are a really big problem in today's society.

Let's assume the man in this case is putting his faith in his money (worshipping mammon) rather than his faith in God.

It brings into question what the foundations of the marriage are... for example, the man got married while he was bonded to his debtor and couldn't fully serve God? Is such a man actually born of the Father?
The women chose a man in bondage and knew he couldn't serve God? There was no conversation before hand on when the procreation of children was going to occur?
Did she marry him to be his mother or to be his wife?
Young adults in such a marriage situation are driven more by lust and a lack of self control, rather than true love. Which is why divorce rates are so high today, LDS marriages not being exempt. They rather take the 'easy way' (devil's way) rather than following God.
(Contraceptives add a whole new layer of complexity and immorality to the situation that makes it even worse, I'll put it short and say that they must be avoided at all costs!)

Nevertheless, all is not lost.
My advice for this specific situation. More than ever women, OBEY YOUR HUSBANDS!
Women hate needy men, this is a reality. By undermining his position as a patriarch you will only grow to resent him more.
Did you marry to be his mother or his wife?

Encourage him, but do NOT act like his mother! This is the opposite of what he needs.
Remind him that you are relying on him and you need him to stop acting like a beta for your sake. He must be become a man.

Do not live with resentment, do not live with anger! Reject those and be born of the Father, live by the Holy Spirit whom brings no anger, but peace and love.
Have faith in God.

Okay, back to the discussion on why a man who feels entitled to his wife's obedience comes across as needy.
(Be prepared for a big long lecture, and repeating myself, I apologize! )

The husband who has in his mind that he deserves something from his wife, such as obedience or submission to his will, is bound to be disappointed at some point, because no two people are going to agree on everything all of the time. There will unavoidably be times when your own will conflicts with your wife's will, and it comes across as mightily selfish if you expect your wife to always give into your will as part of her duty. You are setting yourself up for disappointment and resentment if you have this mindset, which disappointment and resentment will be impossible to hide, and which your wife will sense. This will make you come across as needy, because you are coming across as always wanting wanting wanting, and never being satisfied. She will never be able to do everything your way, agree with you all the time, or meet all of your expectations, especially because you are not perfect! So your disappointment, resentment, moodiness, your judgment, your critical eye of her, when she doesn't do her duty and go along with you, will come across as immature, selfish, needy, proud, and insecure. Someone who is confident does not need his wife to agree with him all the time, or fulfill his every wish. Quite the opposite. He will rather be humble, submissive, and meek, because he realizes that he is not perfect and that his wife might be right sometimes.

I'm guessing that some of you men have been hurt by your wife or another woman in your life and this plays into your resentment, that you feel like you weren't given what you feel you deserved. Perhaps you feel you give to your wife but she doesn't give back in return. I sympathize with those feelings and can talk about those issues with you if you'd like. No doubt you've tried to go along with your wife in what she wants and tried to please her. But if you are someone who falsely believes that you are entitled to obedience, even if you should decide to give in to your wife's desires or please her for example, you will always have in the back of your mind that SHE REALLY SHOULD be following your lead in everything and you will resent pleasing her or giving to her because you believe that is her job. The result is that you will give to her grudgingly. Let me say that again in a different way. All your gifts to her will be done with an attitude of resentment and will be not be gifts to her at all because they are done grudgingly. She will start looking at all your gifts as requests or demands, and not gifts of love, and refuse your gifts because they aren't gifts. And she will sense this resentment from you. You might as well disagree with her rather than hold that resentment inside. You will walk around constantly judging her that she is in the wrong, and that you have been wronged. You will feel and act like the entitled Laman and Lemuel who felt entitled to rule over Nephi because they happened to be older. The Lord always likes to turn tradition on it's head in those type of stories, and he's going to turn the tables on the men as well. I thought Peter told the younger to submit to the elder! I guess Nephi wasn't obeying God's will

There will be times when your wife refuses your will or goes along with you grudgingly, and you no doubt resent that, and it will show in your demeanor, thus showing your neediness to get what you want. You might throw her the silent treatment, or just be unresponsive, unkind, and ungenerous. The message will be clear that you are disappointed in her not giving you what you want. This needy behavior is also manipulative, as you are basically punishing her by throwing a silent tantrum for not getting your wants met. She might try to be the noble one who is self-sacrificing and give to you just to make you happy. It will make her feel good about herself that she is being obedient and unselfish, that she is being like her Savior. But the Savior never gave in to selfish wants. She will someday wake up to the fact that's she spoiling you and encouraging and enabling your selfish attitude and desires.

Lest you suppose that I only think men have this problem, I assure you that I know many selfish wives, and that the same result will happen to a wife who has expectations for her husband, and throws him the tantrum in one way or another when she doesn't get what she wants. A husband will feel she is needy and entitled. When either spouse feels entitled to anything from the other, they are only setting themselves up for disappointment and resentment. If you have an entitled wife, then you need to set boundaries for yourself, and give her the same freedom to set her own boundaries.

The only expectations we should have for other adults, are those we mutually agree to, and they should be specific.

The mindset that it is the wife's duty to obey her husband and not the other way around, is not the Lord's will. He has given man strong delusion, because that is what man ultimately wants in his selfish moments, the delusion of power, and he is testing man this way to see what he does with his so-called power and strength. Do you remember the phrase "as they suppose?" Well, pound that into your brain for awhile. You're not entitled to what you think you are entitled to, you simply "suppose" that you have power and authority over others. You are under strong delusion that you have authority over your wife to rule her. You have authority to bless her - that's the truth. Man throughout time has mistakenly thought he was owed obedience and accommodation by his wife, because of a misinterpretation of scripture, and simply because man figured out long ago that it was much easier to force, demand, shame, guilt-trip, manipulate, and teach women and believe himself that woman owed man something, rather than needing to earn admiration, respect and love. He has to tell woman over and over that it is her duty to love him and give to him rather than humbly ask for what he wants without expectation. A man that comes across as confident in who he is, has complete self-control of his desires and doesn't need someone else to make him happy. He doesn't pout when he doesn't get his way. A confident man who isn't needy doesn't subtly show his wife his displeasure in not agreeing with him, but will meekly and humbly always be wanting to learn from others, including his wife. That will build confidence in her that she is truly valued, loved and respected. Not some lecture that she needs to treat him the same way she treats the Lord, and he has no obligation to treat her equally. You might try treating your wife like you treat the Lord, and try that experiment, and see what happens. She might be softened and treat you as her Lord in return.

You say that a wife shouldn't act like a mother to her husband, and I agree. But mothers do different things. It seems as though men don't want the motherly guidance, advice, or rebuke or nagging, but they want the motherly care and accommodating gestures a mother gives. They want all the things their mother used to give them, and then add sexual love to the list of things they want their wife to give to them. And in return, they tell a wife that she should be a child to him You don't want a wife to be your mother, but YOU want to be her father! You want to tell her what to do, and her to unquestionably go along, and that is treating your wife like your daughter. Only thing is that with a daughter, you don't expect her to also give you all the things you expect from a wife. So when you think about it, behavior from men with this twisted mindset comes across as very selfish and hypocritical saying they don't want to be treated like a child but demand that a wife be treated as a child. Culture and tradition have brainwashed women into thinking and fearing that it is their duty to give her husband whatever he wants and baby him or else he won't be able to handle family life. He'll be neutered in his right to lead if we don't obey him! Whatever. Your right to lead only comes without compulsion. You earn the right to lead. You persuade those around you. You earn their confidence, trust and respect. That's being a leader, not bullying, shaming and lecturing a woman to follow you.

I agree with you that in that situation I posed, where the wife wanted children and the man didn't, that it would be better for the wife to go along with her husband, because I know that it is always better to give than to receive, and that decisions should be united before going forward. She will be blessed in the long run for not putting up a fight with a selfish husband. But this is a case where she wants something and he doesn't. In the case where he wants something and she doesn't, there is no obligation to give him what he wants, if she feels that what he wants is motivated by selfishness, entitlement, or simply just thinking only about what he wants and not about what she wants. The issue here is selfishness, and understanding what is motivating both the husband and wife in all his or her opinions and decisions. Does he put his wife's needs before his own, or is he putting his own needs above those of his wife? Like I stated before, in general, you will be treated the way you treat others. But some people are damaged from either false teachings like these, trauma or hurt, and will always feel entitled no matter how much you give to them and try to please them. That is where boundaries come into play, and we could have an entire conversation about boundaries if you'd like.

Do you think it is okay for a wife to have boundaries? You stated in my example that a wife is still obligated to obey her husband even if he is in the wrong. But where do you draw the line or boundary? Should a wife obey her husband if he wants her to participate or go along with something that's dishonest? What if he wants her to do something that in her mind is immoral, dangerous, or makes her uncomfortable. Is it okay for a wife to say no? It surely is, otherwise she is a slave.

[Chamberlain]

Guess what! The man who believes his wife has a duty to accommodate his wishes, will be the man who comes across as needy. And indeed women don't like needy men. I'll let you think on that and explain in the morning

A wife's obedience is for her, not the man. Its to overcome the ego and learn true love.
Just like how man's obedience to God is to benefit man, not God.

[Sarah]

Guess what! The man who believes his wife has a duty to accommodate his wishes, will be the man who comes across as needy. And indeed women don't like needy men. I'll let you think on that and explain in the morning

A wife's obedience is for her, not the man. Its to overcome the ego and learn true love.
Just like how man's obedience to God is to benefit man, not God.

I agree it's for her too when you are communicating to her God's will. And your obedience to her inspired requests is also for your own good. We all need to learn to humbly obey when the Lord commands or inspires us to do something. But she should only obey you in the things that the Lord directs you to do, and not feel obligated to simply obey you if you tell her to have dinner at 6 for example. You need to respect her agency.

[Sarah]

Guess what! The man who believes his wife has a duty to accommodate his wishes, will be the man who comes across as needy. And indeed women don't like needy men. I'll let you think on that and explain in the morning

A wife's obedience is for her, not the man. Its to overcome the ego and learn true love.
Just like how man's obedience to God is to benefit man, not God.

Also, your wife can have God with her directing her through the Holy Ghost. If he wants her to do something, he can tell her to do that himself and doesn't need to play telephone with you. You can receive revelation for the family in general or be inspired as what would help your wife or one of your children. But even then you shouldn't condemn her for not going along with your inspiration. She has her agency. You telling her she must trust you and obey is just going to make you out to be controlling.

Besides the examples about child-bearing and staying home to take care of the kids, what are other examples of things you think a wife should do and obey you in.

[Chamberlain]

But she should only obey you in the things that the Lord directs you to do, and not feel obligated to simply obey you if you tell her to have dinner at 6 for example. You need to respect her agency.
...
Also, your wife can have God with her directing her through the Holy Ghost.

For more clarification, men should not get upset or angry about not being obeyed either. Men shouldn't get angry ever.
But obedience is something you should encourage your wife to do.

I don't think a husband should be managing weather or not his wife is obeying him. He should be aware and be able to answer it honestly, but its not like "You didn't have dinner ready at 6pm! You're not obeying me!" that has beta written all over it. Is that what you're try to get at?

You're not disrespecting agency. Again, modeled after man's relationship with God, wives are allowed to choose as well.
Women born of the Father can be inspired by the Holy Spirit. That should definitely be considered, your wife should probably be your #1 counselor.
I think you should reconsider how you're thinking about what a women's obedience means. Its not for or about the husband, but rather her.

God expects us to be moral. To have good character and a clean conscience.
He expects us to cast out of anger, resentment, insecurities and to have the Holy Spirit with us.
He expects men to lead their wives and he expects wives to obey their husbands.

[Sarah]

But she should only obey you in the things that the Lord directs you to do, and not feel obligated to simply obey you if you tell her to have dinner at 6 for example. You need to respect her agency.
...
Also, your wife can have God with her directing her through the Holy Ghost.

For more clarification, men should not get upset or angry about not being obeyed either. Men shouldn't get angry ever.
But obedience is something you should encourage your wife to do.

I don't think a husband should be managing weather or not his wife is obeying him. He should be aware and be able to answer it honestly, but its not like "You didn't have dinner ready at 6pm! You're not obeying me!" that has beta written all over it. Is that what you're try to get at?

You're not disrespecting agency. Again, modeled after man's relationship with God, wives are allowed to choose as well.
Women born of the Father can be inspired by the Holy Spirit. That should definitely be considered, your wife should probably be your #1 counselor.
I think you should reconsider how you're thinking about what a women's obedience means. Its not for or about the husband, but rather her.

God expects us to be moral. To have good character and a clean conscience.
He expects us to cast out of anger, resentment, insecurities and to have the Holy Spirit with us.
He expects men to lead their wives and he expects wives to obey their husbands.

Your wife has already made a covenant to obey God at baptism, so why should she place you above God?
If you are both obeying the Lord, there is no reason she needs to obey you separately. If you were both obeying God you would be united in your decisions. That's why the Lord wants you to council together and become united, which is the opposite of a father-daughter relationship, with one expected to obey the other. You need to move beyond a hierarchy and look to the unity described in the higher law of God and of Zion.

The only reason you feel she should obey you separately is so she will be forced to be more humble than you. If you were really as humble as her, you would see that you have just as much responsibility and duty to hearken to her counsel as she has to hearken to yours, for she has just as much right to heavenly guidance and inspiration as you. You say her obedience is to pattern after your relationship with God but her relationship with the Lord is the same relationship as yours. She has the Holy Ghost as her constant companion and can receive revelation just as much as you can. She has the power to give you lots of different love gifts and blessings, just as you have the ability to give her blessings as well.

Rather than teach your wife to obey you, it would be better to teach your family the principles of Zion and the higher law that Jesus taught. We need to give to those who ask, and receive with appreciation by giving back in return. We should ask without a feeling of entitlement, and not demand or expect things we want. We should give, receive, and request motivated by unselfishness and love. We should unitedly obey God's commandments. Obedience is a word usually reserved for a parent-child relationship (which is the relationship we have with God). The parent has the responsibility of teaching a child obedience in order to train them in the way they should go. The parent makes laws or rules and asks a child to obey those laws and rules. Family rules should be unitedly agreed upon between you and your wife, as you are both the parents of the children. You are not the only law-giver to your family, for you have no more authority than your wife. Your priesthood office and ordination give you authority to act in the church in different capacities, but you and your wife have received the same priesthood (patriarchal and matriarchal) as a covenant keeping husband and wife. As a child obeys and grows up, the parents stop telling the child what to do. My adult father would never encourage me now in my adulthood to obey him, nor would yours I'm sure. Are you planning on encouraging your adult children to obey you when they grow up? God let's us grow up, and as we become one with him, we are able to live higher laws which have more to do with the heart than obeying a strict rule or command. Parents and adult children become friends. I encourage you to become friends with your wife. It's your choice if you want to have a father-daughter relationship with your wife by encouraging her to obey you, and it's your choice if you want to treat her as child and never let her grow up to have an equal relationship with you. She will not learn independence but will always be dependent on someone to tell her what to do (I've seen this with a older female family member who cannot make any decisions for herself after her husband died, because her husband made all the decisions.) Someday your wife will have to grow up and not be told what to do. She will have the opportunity to have a husband-wife relationship with someone that believes in having an equal partnership with her, with equal respect, and equal authority, as they each counsel together and delegate to each other certain responsibilities.

[Chamberlain]

Your wife has already made a covenant to obey God at baptism, so why should she place you above God?

By obeying a husband you're not placing him above God, in fact the opposite. You're obeying God's order. Where you are placed in the order does not effect your unity to the other entities. What does effect unity though? Obedience.
When we are disobedient to God we are separated from him, so is it with wives and their husbands.

She has the power to give you lots of different love gifts and blessings, just as you have the ability to give her blessings as well.

If you were really as humble as her, you would see that you have just as much responsibility and duty to hearken to her counsel

Its not a contest of who is more humble.
Perhaps women can bless men, but they do it in completely different ways than how men bless women.
Yes, like I said your wife should probably be your #1 counselor after God.

Rather than teach your wife to obey you, it would be better to teach your family the principles of Zion and the higher law that Jesus taught.

You should master the basics. This is a principal that western women struggle to comprehend today because of certain ideological propaganda.

same priesthood (patriarchal and matriarchal)

One God, one order, one authority, one priesthood. Different duties (patriarchal and matriarchal) different responsibilities and behaviors.

I could talk about this forever, but it is a principal that will only be learned through faith and trying it for yourself and seeing what happens. It will save much suffering and bless your marriage, children and life.

And for the men out there, stop being betas! Women learn best from example. When you're obedient to God, they will naturally follow you.

Be honest. Learn self-control. Abandon your anger and learn perfect love. Become born of the Father. This is the ideal to work towards and don't settle for anything less!

[Sarah]

Your wife has already made a covenant to obey God at baptism, so why should she place you above God?

By obeying a husband you're not placing him above God, in fact the opposite. You're obeying God's order. Where you are placed in the order does not effect your unity to the other entities. What does effect unity though? Obedience.
When we are disobedient to God we are separated from him, so is it with wives and their husbands.

She has the power to give you lots of different love gifts and blessings, just as you have the ability to give her blessings as well.

If you were really as humble as her, you would see that you have just as much responsibility and duty to hearken to her counsel

Its not a contest of who is more humble.
Perhaps women can bless men, but they do it in completely different ways than how men bless women.
Yes, like I said your wife should probably be your #1 counselor after God.

Rather than teach your wife to obey you, it would be better to teach your family the principles of Zion and the higher law that Jesus taught.

You should master the basics. This is a principal that western women struggle to comprehend today because of certain ideological propaganda.

same priesthood (patriarchal and matriarchal)

One God, one order, one authority, one priesthood. Different duties (patriarchal and matriarchal) different responsibilities and behaviors.

I could talk about this forever, but it is a principal that will only be learned through faith and trying it for yourself and seeing what happens. It will save much suffering and bless your marriage, children and life.

And for the men out there, stop being betas! Women learn best from example. When you're obedient to God, they will naturally follow you.

Be honest. Learn self-control. Abandon your anger and learn perfect love. Become born of the Father. This is the ideal to work towards and don't settle for anything less!

Again, talking about obedience is pointless unless you will engage in giving real life scenarios. Please give some examples of how a wife should obey her husband day to day. Otherwise, you're simply a philosopher who communicates in nice sounding soundbites. God's order is found in the temple, and the order there is a man and woman making the same covenants with God and they are promised the same blessings. The idea that a husband will eternally rule over his wife comes from a misguided interpretation of the curse pronounced upon Eve.