Interpreting Isaiah 53: Gileadi vs Abinadi (and Lehi and Paul)

[LDS Watchman]

Jehovah's servant in Isaiah 53 isn't Jesus Christ?

Boy oh boy. Guess Abinadi, Lehi, Matthew, and Paul were all wrong then. But of course that learned scribe Gileadi is right. He can't be wrong. Nope, no way. He's smarter than those prophets.

You forgot 3 Nephi

The marred servant - Davidic servant is NOT Christ neither Joseph Smith.

To me, this is ridiculous - thinking that it's Christ.
All one needs to do is read this to see that it cannot be Christ or JS.
3 Nephi 21
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand
therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them.
Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

so by reading this - HOW CAN the marred servant - being Christ - be in HIS OWN HAND ?

The next best thing, is to compare a tricycle to the trinity.

Somehow people believe that line of bull too.
Meanwhile the mighty four consonants moves on.
Slippery Stuff, but not Shiitake Mushrooms. ssbnsm

I didn't forget 3 Nephi 21.

Are we given the identity of the marred servant in the scriptures or by Joseph Smith? Not to my knowledge.

But we are given the identity of the servant of Jehovah in Isaiah 53, which is Jesus Christ. Same goes for other references to Jehovah's servant in Isaiah and other scriptures.

Scriptures are men’s ways of attempting to understand God, but there are vastly superior ways such as stem from the mighty four consonants. Take a look at keyword 38ii to see how the quake on March 18th formed a timing pattern that conformed to the 1rule of a game based on silent consonants.

Likewise Deep, but not Profound may transform into Slippery Stuff, but not Shiitake Mushrooms type word game, by observing the placement of double consonants. Also note the name formed by observance of said timing pattern and one like onto it on March 8th 2002.

Note the magnitude and how it resembles a similar emblematic number and you may arrive at an answer. Also check the EARTHQUAKES! thread for the full geometric sequence currently maxing out at 8.1 on the Richter Scale.

2020 - 2002 = 18; R’nt that special.

The scriptures are the word of God.

[BeNotDeceived]

I didn't forget 3 Nephi 21.

Are we given the identity of the marred servant in the scriptures or by Joseph Smith? Not to my knowledge.

But we are given the identity of the servant of Jehovah in Isaiah 53, which is Jesus Christ. Same goes for other references to Jehovah's servant in Isaiah and other scriptures.

Scriptures are men’s ways of attempting to understand God, but there are vastly superior ways such as stem from the mighty four consonants. Take a look at keyword 38ii to see how the quake on March 18th formed a timing pattern that conformed to the 1rule of a game based on silent consonants.

Likewise Deep, but not Profound may transform into Slippery Stuff, but not Shiitake Mushrooms type word game, by observing the placement of double consonants. Also note the name formed by observance of said timing pattern and one like onto it on March 8th 2002.

Note the magnitude and how it resembles a similar emblematic number and you may arrive at an answer. Also check the EARTHQUAKES! thread for the full geometric sequence currently maxing out at 8.1 on the Richter Scale.

2020 - 2002 = 18; R’nt that special.

The scriptures are the word of God.

Joseph Smith couldn't answer his question by reading the scriptures, what makes you think you can?

[LDS Watchman]

I didn't forget 3 Nephi 21.

Are we given the identity of the marred servant in the scriptures or by Joseph Smith? Not to my knowledge.

But we are given the identity of the servant of Jehovah in Isaiah 53, which is Jesus Christ. Same goes for other references to Jehovah's servant in Isaiah and other scriptures.

Scriptures are men’s ways of attempting to understand God, but there are vastly superior ways such as stem from the mighty four consonants. Take a look at keyword 38ii to see how the quake on March 18th formed a timing pattern that conformed to the 1rule of a game based on silent consonants.

Likewise Deep, but not Profound may transform into Slippery Stuff, but not Shiitake Mushrooms type word game, by observing the placement of double consonants. Also note the name formed by observance of said timing pattern and one like onto it on March 8th 2002.

Note the magnitude and how it resembles a similar emblematic number and you may arrive at an answer. Also check the EARTHQUAKES! thread for the full geometric sequence currently maxing out at 8.1 on the Richter Scale.

2020 - 2002 = 18; R’nt that special.

The scriptures are the word of God.

Joseph Smith couldn't answer his question by reading the scriptures, what makes you think you can?

What question are you referring to?

[BeNotDeceived]

Scriptures are men’s ways of attempting to understand God, but there are vastly superior ways such as stem from the mighty four consonants. Take a look at keyword 38ii to see how the quake on March 18th formed a timing pattern that conformed to the 1rule of a game based on silent consonants.

Likewise Deep, but not Profound may transform into Slippery Stuff, but not Shiitake Mushrooms type word game, by observing the placement of double consonants. Also note the name formed by observance of said timing pattern and one like onto it on March 8th 2002.

Note the magnitude and how it resembles a similar emblematic number and you may arrive at an answer. Also check the EARTHQUAKES! thread for the full geometric sequence currently maxing out at 8.1 on the Richter Scale.

2020 - 2002 = 18; R’nt that special.

The scriptures are the word of God.

Joseph Smith couldn't answer his question by reading the scriptures, what makes you think you can?

What question are you referring to?

The identity of the OMAS, Davidic Servant and/or whatever others descriptors describe him.

[LDS Watchman]

The scriptures are the word of God.

Joseph Smith couldn't answer his question by reading the scriptures, what makes you think you can?

What question are you referring to?

The identity of the OMAS, Davidic Servant and/or whatever others descriptors describe him.

Oh, I thought you meant the question Joseph Smith asked, which is which church is the Lord's true church.

That answer is plainly given in the scriptures. It is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

As for the identity of Gileadi's "Davidic Servant" and the scriptures he claims apply to him and describe his mission, well the scriptures say a great deal about that, too.

Much of what he claims is referring to his mortal "Davidic Servant" can be proven to actually be speaking of Jesus Christ.

Gileadi's claims in regards to this "Davidic Servant" are seriously flawed at best, and at worst they are essentially false.

[BeNotDeceived]

Joseph Smith couldn't answer his question by reading the scriptures, what makes you think you can?

What question are you referring to?

The identity of the OMAS, Davidic Servant and/or whatever others descriptors describe him.

Oh, I thought you meant the question Joseph Smith asked, which is which church is the Lord's true church.

That answer is plainly given in the scriptures. It is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

As for the identity of Gileadi's "Davidic Servant" and the scriptures he claims apply to him and describe his mission, well the scriptures say a great deal about that, too.

Much of what he claims is referring to his mortal "Davidic Servant" can be proven to actually be speaking of Jesus Christ.

Gileadi's claims in regards to this "Davidic Servant" are seriously flawed at best, and at worst they are essentially false.

What many refer to as the Kirkland Temple Downgrade or the Meeting at Morely’s Farm is also written in the scriptures.

I never read Gileadi, except what I’ve seen posted here.

A story was posted in Introductions here, that upon the slightest investigation immediately made amazing connections on many fronts. It passed with Flying Colors is how I described it at the time. Then GBNG pointed to a green and yellow symbol related to aviation, and then another amazing timing pattern conformed to the 1rule of the GBNG game posted in OD alongside said symbol.

Spirit supplied a quote from 3 Nephi that doesn’t work as you’re thinking. Maybe there’s more like that from the Bible? Anyways, God has spoken on the matter, so what the scriptures say about it is now a mere curiosity.

[LDS Watchman]

What question are you referring to?

The identity of the OMAS, Davidic Servant and/or whatever others descriptors describe him.

Oh, I thought you meant the question Joseph Smith asked, which is which church is the Lord's true church.

That answer is plainly given in the scriptures. It is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

As for the identity of Gileadi's "Davidic Servant" and the scriptures he claims apply to him and describe his mission, well the scriptures say a great deal about that, too.

Much of what he claims is referring to his mortal "Davidic Servant" can be proven to actually be speaking of Jesus Christ.

Gileadi's claims in regards to this "Davidic Servant" are seriously flawed at best, and at worst they are essentially false.

What many refer to as the Kirkland Temple Downgrade or the Meeting at Morely’s Farm is also written in the scriptures.

I never read Gileadi, except what I’ve seen posted here.

A story was posted in Introductions here, that upon the slightest investigation immediately made amazing connections on many fronts. It passed with Flying Colors is how I described it at the time. Then GBNG pointed to a green and yellow symbol related to aviation, and then another amazing timing pattern conformed to the 1rule of the GBNG game posted in OD alongside said symbol.

Spirit supplied a quote from 3 Nephi that doesn’t work as you’re thinking. Maybe there’s more like that from the Bible? Anyways, God has spoken on the matter, so what the scriptures say about it is now a mere curiosity.

I don't know what you are talking about.

[BeNotDeceived]

The identity of the OMAS, Davidic Servant and/or whatever others descriptors describe him.

Oh, I thought you meant the question Joseph Smith asked, which is which church is the Lord's true church.

That answer is plainly given in the scriptures. It is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

As for the identity of Gileadi's "Davidic Servant" and the scriptures he claims apply to him and describe his mission, well the scriptures say a great deal about that, too.

Much of what he claims is referring to his mortal "Davidic Servant" can be proven to actually be speaking of Jesus Christ.

Gileadi's claims in regards to this "Davidic Servant" are seriously flawed at best, and at worst they are essentially false.

What many refer to as the Kirkland Temple Downgrade or the Meeting at Morely’s Farm is also written in the scriptures.

I never read Gileadi, except what I’ve seen posted here.

A story was posted in Introductions here, that upon the slightest investigation immediately made amazing connections on many fronts. It passed with Flying Colors is how I described it at the time. Then GBNG pointed to a green and yellow symbol related to aviation, and then another amazing timing pattern conformed to the 1rule of the GBNG game posted in OD alongside said symbol.

Spirit supplied a quote from 3 Nephi that doesn’t work as you’re thinking. Maybe there’s more like that from the Bible? Anyways, God has spoken on the matter, so what the scriptures say about it is now a mere curiosity.

I don't know what you are talking about.

There's a book blurb for Taylor Drake's Joseph in the Gap and the the jpg is 380x570 pixels.

380/570 is a repeating decimal, and 38x57 means exactly opposite of what the bible says about 38/57.

search.php?keywords=38ii shows much of it, but there are many layers of meaning, that may not be immediately apparent, such as what may be termed as the mighty four consonants. More to follow ...

[abijah`]

It seems that you now concede that the angel of the Lord's presence is in fact Jehovah (please correct me if I'm mistaken).

Yes, in the sense of the Shema.

I will concede that the Holy Ghost may also be called Jehovah, but this does not appear to be who the scriptures normally refer to as Jehovah. I believe that in the scriptures the name Jehovah typically refers to God the Father and/or Jesus Christ.

I reject the notion that that its some normal or common thing for the Name YHWH to refer the Father in the Old Testament.

Yes I understand you have places like Moses 1 to lean on, but meanwhile on the other side of the scales you need to ignore scriptures like these:

• John 1
  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

• John 14
  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

• Matt 11
  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Jesus Christ was YHWH of the Old Testament, the God of Israel. He is the means by which the Father interacts with fallen humanity. The endowment clearly shows this same pattern I've been talking about since 3Ne15 above, the chain of authority being the Father ----> YHWH ----> Holy Ghost/Apostles

The essential pattern conforms to a baseline framework wherein YHWH = Jesus.

To illustrate this point let's take a look at a few scriptures. We'll begin with Isaiah 53.

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm (Jesus Christ) of the Lord (Jehovah/God the Father) revealed?

2 For he (Jesus Christ) shall grow up before him (Jehovah/God the Father) as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 ¶ Yet it pleased the Lord (Jehovah/God the Father) to bruise him (Jesus Christ); he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord (Jehovah/God the Father) shall prosper in his (Jesus Christ) hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my (Jehovah/God the Father) righteous servant (Jesus Christ) justify many; for he (Jesus Christ) shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I (Jehovah/God the Father) divide him (Jesus Christ) a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

God the Father is Jehovah and Jesus Christ is his arm/servant.

Likely so, though I don't find this to be a particularly substantial refutation that malakh`Jhwh is the 3rd god, especially measured against everything substantiating it.

But also - and this is carefree speculation on my own part - its not some difficult thing to see my framing within Isa`53.

• Matthew 1
  Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

I suspect this speaks to a deep mystery, regarding the sonship and parentage of Jesus Christ, as well as to the curious distinction in the way He'd refer Himself ("Son of Man") versus how others'd refer to Him ("Son of God").

Jesus says that "no man taketh [His] life", but that He lays it down of Himself.

But you have to remember that, upon the cross, Jesus's death is a cosmic ritual sacrifice. And for a sacrifice to be administered, there must needs be a sacrificer, an officiator for the ordinance.

This is the Holy Ghost, the "sword" -

• Matthew 26
  Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

He's quoting this:

• Zechariah 13
  Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered

So if I were to look at this verse through your lens of YHWH = the Father, it would seem He is telling someone referred to as "O Sword".

Why should one assume the linkage b/w the third god and a sword?

• Ephesians 6
  and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

"the Spirit, which is the word of God", interesting.

• Hebrews 4
  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart [what the Spirit does]

The 3rd member of the Godhead has an established history of association with swords:

• Joshua 5
  When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand.

• Numbers 22
  Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand.

• 1 Chronicles 21
  And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem.

The Holy Ghost was understood anciently as often functioning in a certain martial, military/combat capacity, and has an especial role when it comes to divine intervention in protecting and defending God's chosen:

• Psalm 34
  The angel of the LORD encampeth [military term] round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

• Isaiah 63 [this verse also proves how the angel = the Holy Spirit]
  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.
  But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy [instead of their guardian protector], and himself fought against them [instead of for them, against their enemies].

• Psalm 35
  Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.
  Let them be like chaff before the wind, with the angel of the LORD driving them away!

• Daniel 3
  Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods...”
  Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who has sent his angel and delivered his servants, who trusted in him, and set aside the king’s command, and yielded up their bodies rather than serve and worship any god except their own God.

This yet bolsters even further the understanding of God sending malakh`Jhwh to "deliver" Abram in Ur, his life being threatened by pagan ritual sacrifice.

He likewise may well be the "destroyer" of the Passover narrative, which would further support him being the agent of carrying out Christ's crucifixion - since Jesus carried out his sacrifice during not the Feast of the Day of Atonement (Autumn), but rather the Feast of Passover (Springtime)

Its also why we see him as the agent of God's pre-dawn massacre of the assyrians besieging Jerusalem:

• Isaiah 37
  And the angel of the LORD went out and struck down 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies.

So all that seems to sufficient to establish that the "sword" who "smites the shepherd" = malakh`Jhwh.

Now, I have more reasons to suspect this as well.

It may very well be the case that the Angel of YHWH is not only equivalent to the Holy Ghost, but that these figures are also equivalent to Michael/Adam.

This is perfectly coherent with the LDS understanding that Michael wasthe #3 in the Creation coalition, after the first Two of the Godhead, Michael being highest in authority and intelligence, surpassed only by Christ Himself.

An Isa53 scenario, Jesus being the "son of man" (adam), and the one who is put to death by His "father" (who Matthew said was the Holy Spirit) for his transgression in Eden.

Tim: It's a messenger. It's an angelic messenger that appears to look like a human and is distinct from Yahweh. But then in other parts of the story, that same figure is Yahweh. These texts create a huge conversation that goes back thousands of years. And what you see in the Jewish literature of the Second Temple period is there are many different suggestions for who this figure is. This figure is given names. Some people think it's Mikha'el - Michael. In later Jewish literature—

Jon: Because that name means "My name is El."

Tim: Who is like El.

Jon: Who is like El.

Tim: Yeah, that's right. So Michael, archangel.

Jon: What does that mean, the archangel?

Tim: A chief angel. A chief angel who isn't just Yahweh but is so— Jon: He's up the pecking order.

Tim: He's the top of the Elohim.

Jon: He's the chief of staff.

Tim: Yeah, chief of staff.

One way to show malakh`Jhwh = Michael = Israel's national representative Prince.

Because, in fact, the various nations/tribes who were dispersed at Babel were each assigned their own temporary patron-deities, rulers whose authority was delegated from God (because the nations rejected Him; resulting in Him functioning solely as a God to Israel alone):

• Deut 32
  When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
  But the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.

• Deuteronomy 4
  And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the LORD your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.
  But the LORD has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of his own inheritance, as you are this day.

Each nation/tribe/language has its own patron deity.

Now, YHWH says that He is the representative patron of Israel. However, you also get stuff like:

• Daniel 12
  At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people.

This princely jurisdiction seems corroborated in Dead Sea traditions:

To the instructor, for demonstrating and for teaching all the Sons of Light concerning the origin of mankind; for knowing every type of their spirits by their tokens, and of their deeds by their history. They are the spirits of truth a fountain of light. In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness; upon the ways of light they walk. But in the hand of the Angel of Darkness is the rule of Sons of Deception . . . . And by the Prince of Darkness all the Sons of Righteousness went astray, so that all their sins and transgressions and guilt and the trespasses of their ways are in his power, according to the deep designs of God, until his appointed end. .. .
And all the spirits that follow him attempt to overthrow the Sons of Light, while the God of Israel and the Angel of Truth assist all the Sons of Light. It was he who created the spirits of light and...

Today is His appointed time to subdue and to humiliate the prince of the realm of wickedness. He will send eternal support to the company of His redeemed by the power of the majestic angel, of the authority of Michael. By eternal light He shall joyfully light up the covenant of Israel peace and blessing for the lot of God, to exalt the authority of Michael among the gods and the dominion of Israel among all flesh. Righteousness shall rejoice on high, and all sons of His truth shall rejoice in eternal knowledge.

Repeatedly Michael gets loads of various epithets, including the "Spirit of Truth". Compare how the DSS talks about Michael with how John and Daniel talk about him:

• John 14
  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

And he will pour out upon him the spirit of truth like water, purging away all abominable falsehood . . .
22. to make known unto the righteous by the knowledge of the Most High and by the wisdom of the Sons of Heaven, for the enlightenment of those who are perfect in the way.

• John 16
  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
  Of sin, because they believe not on me;
  Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness; upon the ways of light they walk. But in the hand of the Angel of Darkness is the rule of Sons of Deception . . . . And by the Prince of Darkness all the Sons of Righteousness went astray, so that all their sins and transgressions and guilt and the trespasses of their ways are in his power, according to the deep designs of God, until his appointed end.

On the day when the Kittim fall there shall be a battle and horrible carnage before the God of Israel, for it is a day appointed by Him from ancient times as a battle of annihilation for the Sons of Darkness. On that day the congregation of the gods and the congregation of men shall engage one another, resulting in great carnage.
The Sons of Light and the forces of Darkness shall fight together to show the strength of God with the roar of a great multitude and the shout of gods and men; a day of disaster.

And when the] banners of the infantry cause their hearts to melt, then the strength of God will strengthen the he[arts of the Sons of Light.]: the great hand of God shall overcome [Belial and al]l the angels of his dominion, and all the men of [his forces shall be destroyed forever].

• Daniel 12
  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

The Sons of Light and the forces of Darkness shall fight together to show the strength of God with the roar of a great multitude and the shout of gods and men; a day of disaster. It is a time of distress fo[r al]l the people who are redeemed by God.

• Daniel 12
  at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

and into the lot of light You cast us in accordance with Your truth. You appointed the Prince of Light from of old to assist us, for in His lot are all sons of righteous]ness and all spirits of truth are in his dominion.

• Daniel 12
  Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.

And he will pour out upon him a spirit of truth like water to make known (or instruct) the righteous by the knowledge of the Most High (ʿElyon) and by (or in) the wisdom of the Sons of Heaven

• Daniel 12
  And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Light

Also compare with the OMAS of D&C 85 -

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong

Rise up, O Hero, take Your captives, O Glorious One, take Your plunder, O You who do valiantly. Lay Your hand upon the neck of Your enemies, and Your foot upon the backs of the slain.

• D&C 85
  holding the scepter of power in his hand

In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness

• D&C 85
  clothed with light for a covering

with a crown of glory, along with a garment of splendor in eternal light.

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words

to exalt the authority of Michael among the gods

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  his bowels shall be a fountain of truth

he is the spirit of truth, a fountain of light

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found

and into the lot of light You cast us in accordance with Your truth. You appointed the Prince of Light from of old to assist us, for in His lot are all sons of righteous]ness and all spirits of truth are in his dominion.

Michael is well-known in his role as a divine warrior and captain of the Lord's armies:

• Daniel 10
  there is none who contends [just like how malakh`Jhwh contends]by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

• Joshua 5
  And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
  And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come.

• Rev 12
  Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,

Regarding the above, Michael vs the Dragon, this is the same as the "arm of YHWH" who - by virtue of chopping up the primordial chaos`dragon into pieces -- from which he was able to create the world. The notion that Michael is the means and agency by which the world was created is unique to the LDS - yet the scriptures vindicate this, since thats what dragon-slaying is: creating a new world.

• Isa 51
  Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon?

Isaiah says three times for the arm of JHWH "awake!" - calling back to the original "deep sleep" the Lord had put upon him back in Eden, in "days of old"...

And what does the next verse say?

• Isa 53
  Was it not you who dried up the sea, the waters of the great deep, who made the depths of the sea a way for the redeemed to pass over?

clear correlation w/ Isa 63.

• Isa 63
  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them...
  Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock?"

Michael/Adam = Angel of the Lord. When Adam was exiled from the garden, he was told thorns and thistles would come out of the earth. And malakh`Jhwh appeared to Moses where? A thorn-bush, and a burning one at that. Hence the association b/w the Angel of JHWH and Fire:

• Exodus 3
  2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

• Daniel 3
  He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

• Judges 6
  Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.

• Judges 13
  For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar.

Hence the association b/w the Holy Ghost and the purging/cleansing of divine Fire

• Matt 3
  11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

• Isaiah 4
  When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

• Acts 2
  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
  And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

• Isaiah 9
  For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

• Malachi 3
  for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
  He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the LORD.

• Zechariah 13
  And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”

This is all in context of the Baptism of Fire, and of the Holy Spirit. We know this because ^that "they are my people" bit in Zech13 is specifically a New-Covenant phrase:

• Ezekiel 36
  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
  You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

The Spirit is he who strives with/contends with mankind:

• Genesis 6
  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man [unlike the Comforter Jesus promised, who abides forever] for that he also is flesh

• Daniel 10
  there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

• Genesis 32
  And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day.
  When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him...
  Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

There's a theme with malakh`Jhwh where people keep trying to learn his name, which he keeps a secret.


This is because it is a "new name" which isn't to be divulged. You will notice that in the Genesis narrative, Eve gets her new name (first one was simply "woman"), but curiously, not Adam...

• Gen 32
  Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him.

• Judges 13
  And Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words are fulfilled, we may honor you?”
  And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

In the Endowment drama, Adam is ministered unto and empowered by the Apostles. Whereas in the New Testament its the Holy Spirit who ministers unto and empowers the Apostles. Not a coincidence.

Also the fact that the first we meet the angel is the scene with Hagar, which links right back up to Adam (and Eve), since Hagar herself is emblematic of Adam's transgression. She is the "fruit" that is "good" in the "eyes" of Sarah (Eve), who "takes" her and "gives to her husband" -

• genesis 16:
  The angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the way to Shur.
  And he said, “Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from and where are you going?” She said, “I am fleeing from my mistress Sarai.”
  The angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress and submit to her..."
  So she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, “You are a God of seeing ('thus shall your eyes be opened...'),” for she said, “Truly here I have seen him who looks after me.” Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi; it lies between Kadesh and Bered.

The wellspring in the wilderness also harks back to Genesis, when the Lord's creation of Adam & Eve gets sandwhiched with His creation of the rivers which water the land. The setting for Genesis 2 is a desert, barren wilderness which God brings to life with a fountainhead, asn well as the "seeing" aspect show up in how Isaiah speaks of the New Creation:

• Isa 43
  Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert.

This is why the Spirit/Angel is spoken of as life-giving waters:

• John 7
  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his *belly* shall flow rivers of living water.
  (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

• D&C 85
  And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his *bowels* shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

• Isa 44
  For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

This all connects with the burning thornbush on Mt Sinai that the Angel appears in. Both the names "Horeb", as well as "Sinai" denote barrenness, dryness or being parched - the opposite of the well-irrigated Eden.

"God makes this promise of a lot of seed (family), but he's really old, and his wife's really old and she's never been able to have kids. That becomes the plot conflict of Abraham's story. How's he can get a kid. They attempt to generate a child by their own wisdom. They do what is good in their eyes is the actual phrase used in Genesis 16. We've talked about the story before - the story of Hagar.

He listens to the voice of his wife, which is what Adam did to Eve. And it's a very unique phrase. It's not used very often to listen to the voice of your wife. It's using Genesis 3. It's used in Genesis 16. He listened to the voice of his wife. What does his wife say? She says, "I can't produce children. So I've got an idea. Use my Egyptian slave." Abraham says, "Do what is good in your eyes." That's exactly the phrase for what Eve did. But then Hagar, the Egyptian slave gets pregnant, and now Sarah's jealous. Then she presses the Egyptian. It's inversion of the Exodus, where the Egyptians would press the Israelites. The Exodus story is a sad inverted consequence of Abraham and Sarah oppressing an Egyptian slave. Anyhow. Then Sarah took Hagar, gave her to her husband just like Eve took of the fruit, gave it to her husband. The whole thing, this is Abraham...

Abraham and Sarah are portrayed as reenacting their Adam and Eve story. They're trying to get a child by doing what is wise in their own eyes, namely, abusing a slave and then oppressing them. That sets in motion and this thing where now they have gained a child through ra', by doing ra' to another person. Because of their evil that ended up in the oppression of a slave and the exiling of a son, what God does is give them an actual son through Sarah, but then he demands the life of that son in Genesis 22. He says, "Give him up as an essential offering."

In other words, the whole story is God says, "I'm going to give you seed." Then there's a story of them getting a seed by their own wisdom and they end up hurting all these people. When God finally gives them a seed, a whole drama builds up to God gives them a seed (a son), and then He asked for that son back. We're told at the beginning story that it's a test. They failed the first time. They didn't trust. Are they going to succeed this time? In this story, Genesis 22...

I can quote you many more similar examples as they are all over the scriptures.

Me too, I have certainly not exhausted my evidences by any stretch, and what's more is that many which I've already shared you seem to have ignored.

[Mamabear]

It seems that you now concede that the angel of the Lord's presence is in fact Jehovah (please correct me if I'm mistaken).

Yes, in the sense of the Shema.

I will concede that the Holy Ghost may also be called Jehovah, but this does not appear to be who the scriptures normally refer to as Jehovah. I believe that in the scriptures the name Jehovah typically refers to God the Father and/or Jesus Christ.

I reject the notion that that its some normal or common thing for the Name YHWH to refer the Father in the Old Testament.

Yes I understand you have places like Moses 1 to lean on, but meanwhile on the other side of the scales you need to ignore scriptures like these:

• John 1
  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

• John 14
  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

• Matt 11
  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Jesus Christ was YHWH of the Old Testament, the God of Israel. He is the means by which the Father interacts with fallen humanity. The endowment clearly shows this same pattern I've been talking about since 3Ne15 above, the chain of authority being the Father ----> YHWH ----> Holy Ghost/Apostles

The essential pattern conforms to a baseline framework wherein YHWH = Jesus.

To illustrate this point let's take a look at a few scriptures. We'll begin with Isaiah 53.

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm (Jesus Christ) of the Lord (Jehovah/God the Father) revealed?

2 For he (Jesus Christ) shall grow up before him (Jehovah/God the Father) as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 ¶ Yet it pleased the Lord (Jehovah/God the Father) to bruise him (Jesus Christ); he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord (Jehovah/God the Father) shall prosper in his (Jesus Christ) hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my (Jehovah/God the Father) righteous servant (Jesus Christ) justify many; for he (Jesus Christ) shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I (Jehovah/God the Father) divide him (Jesus Christ) a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

God the Father is Jehovah and Jesus Christ is his arm/servant.

Likely so, though I don't find this to be a particularly substantial refutation that malakh`Jhwh is the 3rd god, especially measured against everything substantiating it.

But also - and this is carefree speculation on my own part - its not some difficult thing to see my framing within Isa`53.

• Matthew 1
  Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

I suspect this speaks to a deep mystery, regarding the sonship and parentage of Jesus Christ, as well as to the curious distinction in the way He'd refer Himself ("Son of Man") versus how others'd refer to Him ("Son of God").

Jesus says that "no man taketh [His] life", but that He lays it down of Himself.

But you have to remember that, upon the cross, Jesus's death is a cosmic ritual sacrifice. And for a sacrifice to be administered, there must needs be a sacrificer, an officiator for the ordinance.

This is the Holy Ghost, the "sword" -

• Matthew 26
  Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

He's quoting this:

• Zechariah 13
  Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered

So if I were to look at this verse through your lens of YHWH = the Father, it would seem He is telling someone referred to as "O Sword".

Why should one assume the linkage b/w the third god and a sword?

• Ephesians 6
  and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

"the Spirit, which is the word of God", interesting.

• Hebrews 4
  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart [what the Spirit does]

The 3rd member of the Godhead has an established history of association with swords:

• Joshua 5
  When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand.

• Numbers 22
  Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand.

• 1 Chronicles 21
  And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem.

The Holy Ghost was understood anciently as often functioning in a certain martial, military/combat capacity, and has an especial role when it comes to divine intervention in protecting and defending God's chosen:

• Psalm 34
  The angel of the LORD encampeth [military term] round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

• Isaiah 63 [this verse also proves how the angel = the Holy Spirit]
  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.
  But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy [instead of their guardian protector], and himself fought against them [instead of for them, against their enemies].

• Psalm 35
  Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.
  Let them be like chaff before the wind, with the angel of the LORD driving them away!

• Daniel 3
  Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods...”
  Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who has sent his angel and delivered his servants, who trusted in him, and set aside the king’s command, and yielded up their bodies rather than serve and worship any god except their own God.

This yet bolsters even further the understanding of God sending malakh`Jhwh to "deliver" Abram in Ur, his life being threatened by pagan ritual sacrifice.

He likewise may well be the "destroyer" of the Passover narrative, which would further support him being the agent of carrying out Christ's crucifixion - since Jesus carried out his sacrifice during not the Feast of the Day of Atonement (Autumn), but rather the Feast of Passover (Springtime)

Its also why we see him as the agent of God's pre-dawn massacre of the assyrians besieging Jerusalem:

• Isaiah 37
  And the angel of the LORD went out and struck down 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies.

So all that seems to sufficient to establish that the "sword" who "smites the shepherd" = malakh`Jhwh.

Now, I have more reasons to suspect this as well.

It may very well be the case that the Angel of YHWH is not only equivalent to the Holy Ghost, but that these figures are also equivalent to Michael/Adam.

This is perfectly coherent with the LDS understanding that Michael wasthe #3 in the Creation coalition, after the first Two of the Godhead, Michael being highest in authority and intelligence, surpassed only by Christ Himself.

An Isa53 scenario, Jesus being the "son of man" (adam), and the one who is put to death by His "father" (who Matthew said was the Holy Spirit) for his transgression in Eden.

Tim: It's a messenger. It's an angelic messenger that appears to look like a human and is distinct from Yahweh. But then in other parts of the story, that same figure is Yahweh. These texts create a huge conversation that goes back thousands of years. And what you see in the Jewish literature of the Second Temple period is there are many different suggestions for who this figure is. This figure is given names. Some people think it's Mikha'el - Michael. In later Jewish literature—

Jon: Because that name means "My name is El."

Tim: Who is like El.

Jon: Who is like El.

Tim: Yeah, that's right. So Michael, archangel.

Jon: What does that mean, the archangel?

Tim: A chief angel. A chief angel who isn't just Yahweh but is so— Jon: He's up the pecking order.

Tim: He's the top of the Elohim.

Jon: He's the chief of staff.

Tim: Yeah, chief of staff.

One way to show malakh`Jhwh = Michael = Israel's national representative Prince.

Because, in fact, the various nations/tribes who were dispersed at Babel were each assigned their own temporary patron-deities, rulers whose authority was delegated from God (because the nations rejected Him; resulting in Him functioning solely as a God to Israel alone):

• Deut 32
  When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
  But the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.

• Deuteronomy 4
  And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the LORD your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.
  But the LORD has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of his own inheritance, as you are this day.

Each nation/tribe/language has its own patron deity.

Now, YHWH says that He is the representative patron of Israel. However, you also get stuff like:

• Daniel 12
  At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people.

This princely jurisdiction seems corroborated in Dead Sea traditions:

To the instructor, for demonstrating and for teaching all the Sons of Light concerning the origin of mankind; for knowing every type of their spirits by their tokens, and of their deeds by their history. They are the spirits of truth a fountain of light. In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness; upon the ways of light they walk. But in the hand of the Angel of Darkness is the rule of Sons of Deception . . . . And by the Prince of Darkness all the Sons of Righteousness went astray, so that all their sins and transgressions and guilt and the trespasses of their ways are in his power, according to the deep designs of God, until his appointed end. .. .
And all the spirits that follow him attempt to overthrow the Sons of Light, while the God of Israel and the Angel of Truth assist all the Sons of Light. It was he who created the spirits of light and...

Today is His appointed time to subdue and to humiliate the prince of the realm of wickedness. He will send eternal support to the company of His redeemed by the power of the majestic angel, of the authority of Michael. By eternal light He shall joyfully light up the covenant of Israel peace and blessing for the lot of God, to exalt the authority of Michael among the gods and the dominion of Israel among all flesh. Righteousness shall rejoice on high, and all sons of His truth shall rejoice in eternal knowledge.

Repeatedly Michael gets loads of various epithets, including the "Spirit of Truth". Compare how the DSS talks about Michael with how John and Daniel talk about him:

• John 14
  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

And he will pour out upon him the spirit of truth like water, purging away all abominable falsehood . . .
22. to make known unto the righteous by the knowledge of the Most High and by the wisdom of the Sons of Heaven, for the enlightenment of those who are perfect in the way.

• John 16
  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
  Of sin, because they believe not on me;
  Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness; upon the ways of light they walk. But in the hand of the Angel of Darkness is the rule of Sons of Deception . . . . And by the Prince of Darkness all the Sons of Righteousness went astray, so that all their sins and transgressions and guilt and the trespasses of their ways are in his power, according to the deep designs of God, until his appointed end.

On the day when the Kittim fall there shall be a battle and horrible carnage before the God of Israel, for it is a day appointed by Him from ancient times as a battle of annihilation for the Sons of Darkness. On that day the congregation of the gods and the congregation of men shall engage one another, resulting in great carnage.
The Sons of Light and the forces of Darkness shall fight together to show the strength of God with the roar of a great multitude and the shout of gods and men; a day of disaster.

And when the] banners of the infantry cause their hearts to melt, then the strength of God will strengthen the he[arts of the Sons of Light.]: the great hand of God shall overcome [Belial and al]l the angels of his dominion, and all the men of [his forces shall be destroyed forever].

• Daniel 12
  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

The Sons of Light and the forces of Darkness shall fight together to show the strength of God with the roar of a great multitude and the shout of gods and men; a day of disaster. It is a time of distress fo[r al]l the people who are redeemed by God.

• Daniel 12
  at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

and into the lot of light You cast us in accordance with Your truth. You appointed the Prince of Light from of old to assist us, for in His lot are all sons of righteous]ness and all spirits of truth are in his dominion.

• Daniel 12
  Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.

And he will pour out upon him a spirit of truth like water to make known (or instruct) the righteous by the knowledge of the Most High (ʿElyon) and by (or in) the wisdom of the Sons of Heaven

• Daniel 12
  And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Light

Also compare with the OMAS of D&C 85 -

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong

Rise up, O Hero, take Your captives, O Glorious One, take Your plunder, O You who do valiantly. Lay Your hand upon the neck of Your enemies, and Your foot upon the backs of the slain.

• D&C 85
  holding the scepter of power in his hand

In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness

• D&C 85
  clothed with light for a covering

with a crown of glory, along with a garment of splendor in eternal light.

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words

to exalt the authority of Michael among the gods

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  his bowels shall be a fountain of truth

he is the spirit of truth, a fountain of light

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found

and into the lot of light You cast us in accordance with Your truth. You appointed the Prince of Light from of old to assist us, for in His lot are all sons of righteous]ness and all spirits of truth are in his dominion.

Michael is well-known in his role as a divine warrior and captain of the Lord's armies:

• Daniel 10
  there is none who contends [just like how malakh`Jhwh contends]by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

• Joshua 5
  And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
  And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come.

• Rev 12
  Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,

Regarding the above, Michael vs the Dragon, this is the same as the "arm of YHWH" who - by virtue of chopping up the primordial chaos`dragon into pieces -- from which he was able to create the world. The notion that Michael is the means and agency by which the world was created is unique to the LDS - yet the scriptures vindicate this, since thats what dragon-slaying is: creating a new world.

• Isa 51
  Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon?

Isaiah says three times for the arm of JHWH "awake!" - calling back to the original "deep sleep" the Lord had put upon him back in Eden, in "days of old"...

And what does the next verse say?

• Isa 53
  Was it not you who dried up the sea, the waters of the great deep, who made the depths of the sea a way for the redeemed to pass over?

clear correlation w/ Isa 63.

• Isa 63
  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them...
  Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock?"

Michael/Adam = Angel of the Lord. When Adam was exiled from the garden, he was told thorns and thistles would come out of the earth. And malakh`Jhwh appeared to Moses where? A thorn-bush, and a burning one at that. Hence the association b/w the Angel of JHWH and Fire:

• Exodus 3
  2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

• Daniel 3
  He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

• Judges 6
  Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.

• Judges 13
  For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar.

Hence the association b/w the Holy Ghost and the purging/cleansing of divine Fire

• Matt 3
  11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

• Isaiah 4
  When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

• Acts 2
  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
  And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

• Isaiah 9
  For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

• Malachi 3
  for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
  He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the LORD.

• Zechariah 13
  And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”

This is all in context of the Baptism of Fire, and of the Holy Spirit. We know this because ^that "they are my people" bit in Zech13 is specifically a New-Covenant phrase:

• Ezekiel 36
  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
  You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

The Spirit is he who strives with/contends with mankind:

• Genesis 6
  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man [unlike the Comforter Jesus promised, who abides forever] for that he also is flesh

• Daniel 10
  there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

• Genesis 32
  And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day.
  When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him...
  Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

There's a theme with malakh`Jhwh where people keep trying to learn his name, which he keeps a secret.


This is because it is a "new name" which isn't to be divulged. You will notice that in the Genesis narrative, Eve gets her new name (first one was simply "woman"), but curiously, not Adam...

• Gen 32
  Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him.

• Judges 13
  And Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words are fulfilled, we may honor you?”
  And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

In the Endowment drama, Adam is ministered unto and empowered by the Apostles. Whereas in the New Testament its the Holy Spirit who ministers unto and empowers the Apostles. Not a coincidence.

Also the fact that the first we meet the angel is the scene with Hagar, which links right back up to Adam (and Eve), since Hagar herself is emblematic of Adam's transgression. She is the "fruit" that is "good" in the "eyes" of Sarah (Eve), who "takes" her and "gives to her husband" -

"God makes this promise of a lot of seed (family), but he's really old, and his wife's really old and she's never been able to have kids. That becomes the plot conflict of Abraham's story. How's he can get a kid. They attempt to generate a child by their own wisdom. They do what is good in their eyes is the actual phrase used in Genesis 16. We've talked about the story before - the story of Hagar.

He listens to the voice of his wife, which is what Adam did to Eve. And it's a very unique phrase. It's not used very often to listen to the voice of your wife. It's using Genesis 3. It's used in Genesis 16. He listened to the voice of his wife. What does his wife say? She says, "I can't produce children. So I've got an idea. Use my Egyptian slave." Abraham says, "Do what is good in your eyes." That's exactly the phrase for what Eve did. But then Hagar, the Egyptian slave gets pregnant, and now Sarah's jealous. Then she presses the Egyptian. It's inversion of the Exodus, where the Egyptians would press the Israelites. The Exodus story is a sad inverted consequence of Abraham and Sarah oppressing an Egyptian slave. Anyhow. Then Sarah took Hagar, gave her to her husband just like Eve took of the fruit, gave it to her husband. The whole thing, this is Abraham...

Abraham and Sarah are portrayed as reenacting their Adam and Eve story. They're trying to get a child by doing what is wise in their own eyes, namely, abusing a slave and then oppressing them. That sets in motion and this thing where now they have gained a child through ra', by doing ra' to another person. Because of their evil that ended up in the oppression of a slave and the exiling of a son, what God does is give them an actual son through Sarah, but then he demands the life of that son in Genesis 22. He says, "Give him up as an essential offering."

In other words, the whole story is God says, "I'm going to give you seed." Then there's a story of them getting a seed by their own wisdom and they end up hurting all these people. When God finally gives them a seed, a whole drama builds up to God gives them a seed (a son), and then He asked for that son back. We're told at the beginning story that it's a test. They failed the first time. They didn't trust. Are they going to succeed this time? In this story, Genesis 22...

I can quote you many more similar examples as they are all over the scriptures.

Me too, I have certainly not exhausted my evidences by any stretch, and what's more is that many which I've already shared you seem to have ignored.

Yes. Michael is the Holy Ghost. And Jehovah breathed life into Michael in the garden. And the Holy Ghost (Michael) moved upon Mary when Jesus was conceived. They literally gave each other life. This is why Christ refers to himself as the son of man.

[LDS Watchman]

It seems that you now concede that the angel of the Lord's presence is in fact Jehovah (please correct me if I'm mistaken).

Yes, in the sense of the Shema.

I will concede that the Holy Ghost may also be called Jehovah, but this does not appear to be who the scriptures normally refer to as Jehovah. I believe that in the scriptures the name Jehovah typically refers to God the Father and/or Jesus Christ.

I reject the notion that that its some normal or common thing for the Name YHWH to refer the Father in the Old Testament.

Yes I understand you have places like Moses 1 to lean on, but meanwhile on the other side of the scales you need to ignore scriptures like these:

• John 1
  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

• John 14
  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

• Matt 11
  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Jesus Christ was YHWH of the Old Testament, the God of Israel. He is the means by which the Father interacts with fallen humanity. The endowment clearly shows this same pattern I've been talking about since 3Ne15 above, the chain of authority being the Father ----> YHWH ----> Holy Ghost/Apostles

The essential pattern conforms to a baseline framework wherein YHWH = Jesus.

To illustrate this point let's take a look at a few scriptures. We'll begin with Isaiah 53.

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm (Jesus Christ) of the Lord (Jehovah/God the Father) revealed?

2 For he (Jesus Christ) shall grow up before him (Jehovah/God the Father) as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 ¶ Yet it pleased the Lord (Jehovah/God the Father) to bruise him (Jesus Christ); he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord (Jehovah/God the Father) shall prosper in his (Jesus Christ) hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my (Jehovah/God the Father) righteous servant (Jesus Christ) justify many; for he (Jesus Christ) shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I (Jehovah/God the Father) divide him (Jesus Christ) a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

God the Father is Jehovah and Jesus Christ is his arm/servant.

Likely so, though I don't find this to be a particularly substantial refutation that malakh`Jhwh is the 3rd god, especially measured against everything substantiating it.

But also - and this is carefree speculation on my own part - its not some difficult thing to see my framing within Isa`53.

• Matthew 1
  Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

I suspect this speaks to a deep mystery, regarding the sonship and parentage of Jesus Christ, as well as to the curious distinction in the way He'd refer Himself ("Son of Man") versus how others'd refer to Him ("Son of God").

Jesus says that "no man taketh [His] life", but that He lays it down of Himself.

But you have to remember that, upon the cross, Jesus's death is a cosmic ritual sacrifice. And for a sacrifice to be administered, there must needs be a sacrificer, an officiator for the ordinance.


This is the Holy Ghost, the "sword" -

• Matthew 26
  Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

He's quoting this:

• Zechariah 13
  Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered

So if I were to look at this verse through your lens of YHWH = the Father, it would seem He is telling someone referred to as "O Sword".

Why should one assume the linkage b/w the third god and a sword?

• Ephesians 6
  and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

"the Spirit, which is the word of God", interesting.

• Hebrews 4
  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart [what the Spirit does]

The 3rd member of the Godhead has an established history of association with swords:

• Joshua 5
  When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand.

• Numbers 22
  Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand.

• 1 Chronicles 21
  And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem.

The Holy Ghost was understood anciently as often functioning in a certain martial, military/combat capacity, and has an especial role when it comes to divine intervention in protecting and defending God's chosen:

• Psalm 34
  The angel of the LORD encampeth [military term] round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

• Isaiah 63 [this verse also proves how the angel = the Holy Spirit]
  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.
  But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy [instead of their guardian protector], and himself fought against them [instead of for them, against their enemies].

• Psalm 35
  Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.
  Let them be like chaff before the wind, with the angel of the LORD driving them away!

• Daniel 3
  Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods...”
  Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who has sent his angel and delivered his servants, who trusted in him, and set aside the king’s command, and yielded up their bodies rather than serve and worship any god except their own God.

This yet bolsters even further the understanding of God sending malakh`Jhwh to "deliver" Abram in Ur, his life being threatened by pagan ritual sacrifice.

He likewise may well be the "destroyer" of the Passover narrative, which would further support him being the agent of carrying out Christ's crucifixion - since Jesus carried out his sacrifice during not the Feast of the Day of Atonement (Autumn), but rather the Feast of Passover (Springtime)

Its also why we see him as the agent of God's pre-dawn massacre of the assyrians besieging Jerusalem:

• Isaiah 37
  And the angel of the LORD went out and struck down 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies.

So all that seems to sufficient to establish that the "sword" who "smites the shepherd" = malakh`Jhwh.

Now, I have more reasons to suspect this as well.

It may very well be the case that the Angel of YHWH is not only equivalent to the Holy Ghost, but that these figures are also equivalent to Michael/Adam.

This is perfectly coherent with the LDS understanding that Michael wasthe #3 in the Creation coalition, after the first Two of the Godhead, Michael being highest in authority and intelligence, surpassed only by Christ Himself.

An Isa53 scenario, Jesus being the "son of man" (adam), and the one who is put to death by His "father" (who Matthew said was the Holy Spirit) for his sin in Eden.

Tim: It's a messenger. It's an angelic messenger that appears to look like a human and is distinct from Yahweh. But then in other parts of the story, that same figure is Yahweh. These texts create a huge conversation that goes back thousands of years. And what you see in the Jewish literature of the Second Temple period is there are many different suggestions for who this figure is. This figure is given names. Some people think it's Mikha'el - Michael. In later Jewish literature—

Jon: Because that name means "My name is El."

Tim: Who is like El.

Jon: Who is like El.

Tim: Yeah, that's right. So Michael, archangel.

Jon: What does that mean, the archangel?

Tim: A chief angel. A chief angel who isn't just Yahweh but is so— Jon: He's up the pecking order.

Tim: He's the top of the Elohim.

Jon: He's the chief of staff.

Tim: Yeah, chief of staff.

One way to show malakh`Jhwh = Michael = Israel's national representative Prince.

Because, in fact, the various nations/tribes who were dispersed at Babel were each assigned their own temporary patron-deities, rulers whose authority was delegated from God (because the nations rejected Him; resulting in Him functioning solely as a God to Israel alone):

• Deut 32
  When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
  But the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.

• Deuteronomy 4
  And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the LORD your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.
  But the LORD has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of his own inheritance, as you are this day.

Each nation/tribe/language has its own patron deity.

Now, YHWH says that He is the representative patron of Israel. However, you also get stuff like:

• Daniel 12
  At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people.

This princely jurisdiction seems corroborated in Dead Sea traditions:

To the instructor, for demonstrating and for teaching all the Sons of Light concerning the origin of mankind; for knowing every type of their spirits by their tokens, and of their deeds by their history. They are the spirits of truth a fountain of light. In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness; upon the ways of light they walk. But in the hand of the Angel of Darkness is the rule of Sons of Deception . . . . And by the Prince of Darkness all the Sons of Righteousness went astray, so that all their sins and transgressions and guilt and the trespasses of their ways are in his power, according to the deep designs of God, until his appointed end. .. .
And all the spirits that follow him attempt to overthrow the Sons of Light, while the God of Israel and the Angel of Truth assist all the Sons of Light. It was he who created the spirits of light and...

Today is His appointed time to subdue and to humiliate the prince of the realm of wickedness. He will send eternal support to the company of His redeemed by the power of the majestic angel, of the authority of Michael. By eternal light He shall joyfully light up the covenant of Israel peace and blessing for the lot of God, to exalt the authority of Michael among the gods and the dominion of Israel among all flesh. Righteousness shall rejoice on high, and all sons of His truth shall rejoice in eternal knowledge.

Repeatedly Michael gets loads of various epithets, including the "Spirit of Truth". Compare how the DSS talks about Michael with how John and Daniel talk about him:

• John 14
  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

And he will pour out upon him the spirit of truth like water, purging away all abominable falsehood . . .
22. to make known unto the righteous by the knowledge of the Most High and by the wisdom of the Sons of Heaven, for the enlightenment of those who are perfect in the way.

• John 16
  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
  Of sin, because they believe not on me;
  Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness; upon the ways of light they walk. But in the hand of the Angel of Darkness is the rule of Sons of Deception . . . . And by the Prince of Darkness all the Sons of Righteousness went astray, so that all their sins and transgressions and guilt and the trespasses of their ways are in his power, according to the deep designs of God, until his appointed end.

On the day when the Kittim fall there shall be a battle and horrible carnage before the God of Israel, for it is a day appointed by Him from ancient times as a battle of annihilation for the Sons of Darkness. On that day the congregation of the gods and the congregation of men shall engage one another, resulting in great carnage.
The Sons of Light and the forces of Darkness shall fight together to show the strength of God with the roar of a great multitude and the shout of gods and men; a day of disaster.

And when the] banners of the infantry cause their hearts to melt, then the strength of God will strengthen the he[arts of the Sons of Light.]: the great hand of God shall overcome [Belial and al]l the angels of his dominion, and all the men of [his forces shall be destroyed forever].

• Daniel 12
  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

The Sons of Light and the forces of Darkness shall fight together to show the strength of God with the roar of a great multitude and the shout of gods and men; a day of disaster. It is a time of distress fo[r al]l the people who are redeemed by God.

• Daniel 12
  at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

and into the lot of light You cast us in accordance with Your truth. You appointed the Prince of Light from of old to assist us, for in His lot are all sons of righteous]ness and all spirits of truth are in his dominion.

• Daniel 12
  Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.

And he will pour out upon him a spirit of truth like water to make known (or instruct) the righteous by the knowledge of the Most High (ʿElyon) and by (or in) the wisdom of the Sons of Heaven

• Daniel 12
  And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Light

Also compare with the OMAS of D&C 85 -

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong

Rise up, O Hero, take Your captives, O Glorious One, take Your plunder, O You who do valiantly. Lay Your hand upon the neck of Your enemies, and Your foot upon the backs of the slain.

• D&C 85
  holding the scepter of power in his hand

In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness

• D&C 85
  clothed with light for a covering

with a crown of glory, along with a garment of splendor in eternal light.

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words

to exalt the authority of Michael among the gods

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  his bowels shall be a fountain of truth

he is the spirit of truth, a fountain of light

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found

and into the lot of light You cast us in accordance with Your truth. You appointed the Prince of Light from of old to assist us, for in His lot are all sons of righteous]ness and all spirits of truth are in his dominion.

Michael is well-known in his role as a divine warrior and captain of the Lord's armies:

• Daniel 10
  there is none who contends [just like how malakh`Jhwh contends]by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

• Joshua 5
  And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
  And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come.

• Rev 12
  Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,

Regarding the above, Michael vs the Dragon, this is the same as the "arm of YHWH" who - by virtue of chopping up the primordial chaos`dragon into pieces -- from which he was able to create the world. The notion that Michael is the means and agency by which the world was created is unique to the LDS - yet the scriptures vindicate this, since thats what dragon-slaying is: creating a new world.

• Isa 51
  Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon?

Isaiah says three times for the arm of JHWH "awake!" - calling back to the original "deep sleep" the Lord had put upon him back in Eden, in "days of old"...

And what does the next verse say?

• Isa 53
  Was it not you who dried up the sea, the waters of the great deep, who made the depths of the sea a way for the redeemed to pass over?

clear correlation w/ Isa 63.

• Isa 63
  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them...
  Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock?"

Michael/Adam = Angel of the Lord. When Adam was exiled from the garden, he was told thorns and thistles would come out of the earth. And malakh`Jhwh appeared to Moses where? A thorn-bush, and a burning one at that. Hence the association b/w the Angel of JHWH and Fire:

• Exodus 3
  2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

• Daniel 3
  He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

• Judges 6
  Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.

• Judges 13
  For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar.

Hence the association b/w the Holy Ghost and the purging/cleansing of divine Fire

• Matt 3
  11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

• Isaiah 4
  When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

• Acts 2
  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
  And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

• Isaiah 9
  For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

• Malachi 3
  for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
  He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the LORD.

• Zechariah 13
  And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”

This is all in context of the Baptism of Fire, and of the Holy Spirit. We know this because ^that "they are my people" bit in Zech13 is specifically a New-Covenant phrase:

• Ezekiel 36
  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
  You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

The Spirit is he who strives with/contends with mankind:

• Genesis 6
  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man [unlike the Comforter Jesus promised, who abides forever] for that he also is flesh

• Daniel 10
  there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

• Genesis 32
  And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day.
  When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him...
  Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

There's a theme with malakh`Jhwh where people keep trying to learn his name, which he keeps a secret.


This is because it is a "new name" which isn't to be divulged. You will notice that in the Genesis narrative, Eve gets her new name (first one was simply "woman"), but curiously, not Adam...

• Gen 32
  Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him.

• Judges 13
  And Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words are fulfilled, we may honor you?”
  And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

In the Endowment drama, Adam is ministered unto and empowered by the Apostles. Whereas in the New Testament its the Holy Spirit who ministers unto and empowers the Apostles. Not a coincidence.

I can quote you many more similar examples as they are all over the scriptures.

Me too, I have certainly not exhausted my evidences by any stretch, and what's more is that many which I've already shared you seem to have ignored.

I'm not ignoring what you have shared, but there is a reason why I'm not responding to a lot of it.

First, I'm trying to focus on the main issue, which is the identity of Jehovah in the scriptures. The angel of the Lord's presence clearly says that he is Jehovah. And this is very well supported in the accounts of the burning bush, Gideon, and Samson's parents.

You seem to brush this off and want to move on to your other theories, but this is critical issue that needs to first be understood, before there is any point in going into any of the rest of what you have posted.

Secondly, you have posted WAY too much. I don't feel inclined to address it all point by point. Especially when we haven't come to a consensus as to who Jehovah refers to.

As I demonstrated with Moses 1 and Isaiah 53, Jehovah clearly refers to the Father in both instances.

You quoted John 1 in an attempt to show that none of the prophets of old saw the Father, but only the Son.

The JST clarifies what is meant:

19 And no man hath seen God at any time, except he hath borne record of the Son; for except it is through him no man can be saved.

This is precisely what happened in Moses 1, where God the Father (Jehovah) appeared to Moses and bore record of Jesus Christ.

He did the same thing in Isaiah 53.

Every reference to God the Father in the New Testament is a reference to Jehovah of the Old Testament.

Since Jesus and the Father are one, they are both Jehovah, too.

Which is why sometimes Jehovah in the Old Testament refers to the Father and at other times the Son.

The angel of Jehovah’s presence is the Son, Jesus Christ. His name is also Jehovah and he dwells in the presence of the Father (Jehovah).

In D&C 109, Joseph Smith clearly refers to God the Father as Jehovah.

And now we ask thee, Holy Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of thy bosom, in whose name alone salvation can be administered to the children of men, we ask thee, O Lord, to accept of this house, the workmanship of the hands of us, thy servants, which thou didst command us to build

42 But deliver thou, O Jehovah, we beseech thee, thy servants from their hands, and cleanse them from their blood.
43 O Lord, we delight not in the destruction of our fellow men; their souls are precious before thee;
44 But thy word must be fulfilled. Help thy servants to say, with thy grace assisting them: Thy will be done, O Lord, and not ours.
45 We know that thou hast spoken by the mouth of thy prophets terrible things concerning the wicked, in the last days—that thou wilt pour out thy judgments, without measure;
46 Therefore, O Lord, deliver thy people from the calamity of the wicked; enable thy servants to seal up the law, and bind up the testimony, that they may be prepared against the day of burning.
47 We ask thee, Holy Father, to remember those who have been driven by the inhabitants of Jackson county, Missouri, from the lands of their inheritance, and break off, O Lord, this yoke of affliction that has been put upon them.

Read the entire prayer for greater context.

[TheChristian]

Reading the Bible it is obvious that the God of the old testament is no other than the Jesus of Nazerath of the New testament ......
A God that states He alone is God, there is no other, that none were formed before Him, nor shall there be after Him.
We are told the Messiahs names would be Everlasting/eternal father, Almighty God
A God that states He is our only God, our only King, our only Saviour , our only Redeemer, that He is the same yesterday, today and forever and that He is the beginning and the end..............
We find the very same titles for Jesus of Nazerath in the New testament.

One as a Christian cannot demote Jesus of Nazerath to a lesser status, only God Himself could walk apon this earth and live a sinless life, Only God could endure and pay the price of His creations sins apon the Cross and only God could raise Himself from the tomb........

The Book of Mormon in its original form manifests with exceptional clarity that Jesus is our Eternal Father, our God, even in its more recent forms it still brightly testifies that Jesus is our God.
Some teach we cannot worship the Saviour, nor pray unto Him, that we are only to show a reverence for him like we would a prophet, that worship is reserved only for the Father,
Yet the old testament states clearly that you shall worship Yahweh/Jehovah with all your heart mind and strength.............Jesus is Yahweh/Jehovah............
A group of Saints were once debating the Saviours deity, regulating Him to a lesser role and ranking.........
Into my mind came the words.....

"Whom was it that suffered and died apon the cross for them?
It was Jesus of Nazerath that hung there for our sins, so let us give Him the glory and the honor and praise forever.....

The greatest Joys I have had in life is in Jesus our Lord, our God and Father manifest in the flesh for the sole purpose of nailing our sins apon the cross, thus opening heavens doors wide that all might enter in thru simple faith.......

[abijah`]

Yes. Michael is the Holy Ghost. And Jehovah breathed life into Michael in the garden. And the Holy Ghost (Michael) moved upon Mary when Jesus was conceived. They literally gave each other life. This is why Christ refers to himself as the son of man.

Right, Mary correlates with Eve, which is why Jesus refers to her as "Woman", which was the first name of Adam's wife, before she became "Eve".

A focal point of their narrative is the eyes, and more specifically, them being opened.

• Genesis 3
  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

This is why we see the topics of "Seeing" / "Vision" / "Eyes" are such a focal detail whenever he shows up as "the Angel of the Lord", as well as the "Face" motif (he is the "angel of faces" after all, since "presence" = "faces")

• Genesis 16
  4 And Abram went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
  5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the Lord judge between me and thee.
  6 But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thine hand; do to her what is good in thine eyes. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.
  7 And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur...
  11 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.
  12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
  13 And she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?
  14 Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.

• Judges 6
  1And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord: and the Lord delivered them into the hand of Midian seven years...
  And there came the angel of the Lord, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah...
  And the angel of the Lord appeared unto Gideon, and said unto him, The Lord is with thee, thou mighty man of valour...
  14 And the Lord looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?
  ... And Gideon said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, then shew me a sign that thou talkest with me.
  Then the angel of the Lord put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the Lord departed out of his sight.
  And when Gideon perceived that he was the angel of the Lord, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord God! for because I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face.

• Judges 13
  For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked ipon it, and fell on their faces to the ground. But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was the angel of the LORD .
  And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

• Numbers 22
  Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.

• 1 Chronicles 21
  And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell on their faces.

• Joshua 5
  And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
  And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell upon his face to the earth, and did worship...

[LDS Watchman]

Reading the Bible it is obvious that the God of the old testament is no other than the Jesus of Nazerath of the New testament ......
A God that states He alone is God, there is no other, that none were formed before Him, nor shall there be after Him.
We are told the Messiahs names would be Everlasting/eternal father, Almighty God
A God that states He is our only God, our only King, our only Saviour , our only Redeemer, that He is the same yesterday, today and forever and that He is the beginning and the end..............
We find the very same titles for Jesus of Nazerath in the New testament.

One as a Christian cannot demote Jesus of Nazerath to a lesser status, only God Himself could walk apon this earth and live a sinless life, Only God could endure and pay the price of His creations sins apon the Cross and only God could raise Himself from the tomb........

The Book of Mormon in its original form manifests with exceptional clarity that Jesus is our Eternal Father, our God, even in its more recent forms it still brightly testifies that Jesus is our God.
Some teach we cannot worship the Saviour, nor pray unto Him, that we are only to show a reverence for him like we would a prophet, that worship is reserved only for the Father,
Yet the old testament states clearly that you shall worship Yahweh/Jehovah with all your heart mind and strength.............Jesus is Yahweh/Jehovah............
A group of Saints were once debating the Saviours deity, regulating Him to a lesser role and ranking.........
Into my mind came the words.....

"Whom was it that suffered and died apon the cross for them?
It was Jesus of Nazerath that hung there for our sins, so let us give Him the glory and the honor and praise forever.....

The greatest Joys I have had in life is in Jesus our Lord, our God and Father manifest in the flesh for the sole purpose of nailing our sins apon the cross, thus opening heavens doors wide that all might enter in thru simple faith.......

I agree with most of what you are saying here, but I suspect that you and I understand what you are saying differently.

God the Father and Jesus Christ are not the same being. They are two separate and distinct beings. One is the Father and the other is His Son. There is also a third God, which is the Holy Ghost. All three are present and active in both the Old and New Testaments.

As for who we are to pray to, Jesus Christ told us to pray to our Father in Heaven (who is also his Father) in his (Jesus') name.

If you look at many of the prophecies in the Old Testament about the coming of the Savior Jesus Christ, it is clear that there is a God above Jesus, who is his Father. Isaiah 53 is one of multiple examples which clearly illustrate this.

[Wondering Wendy]

Yes. Michael is the Holy Ghost. And Jehovah breathed life into Michael in the garden. And the Holy Ghost (Michael) moved upon Mary when Jesus was conceived. They literally gave each other life. This is why Christ refers to himself as the son of man.

Right, Mary correlates with Eve, which is why Jesus refers to her as "Woman", which was the first name of Adam's wife, before she became "Eve".

A focal point of their narrative is the eyes, and more specifically, them being opened.

• Genesis 3
  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

This is why we see the topics of "Seeing" / "Vision" / "Eyes" are such a focal detail whenever he shows up as "the Angel of the Lord", as well as the "Face" motif (he is the "angel of faces" after all, since "presence" = "faces")

• Genesis 16
  4 And Abram went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
  5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the Lord judge between me and thee.
  6 But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thine hand; do to her what is good in thine eyes. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.
  7 And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur...
  11 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.
  12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
  13 And she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?
  14 Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.

• Judges 6
  1And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord: and the Lord delivered them into the hand of Midian seven years...
  And there came the angel of the Lord, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah...
  And the angel of the Lord appeared unto Gideon, and said unto him, The Lord is with thee, thou mighty man of valour...
  14 And the Lord looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?
  ... And Gideon said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, then shew me a sign that thou talkest with me.
  Then the angel of the Lord put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the Lord departed out of his sight.
  And when Gideon perceived that he was the angel of the Lord, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord God! for because I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face.

• Judges 13
  For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked ipon it, and fell on their faces to the ground. But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was the angel of the LORD .
  And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

• Numbers 22
  Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.

• 1 Chronicles 21
  And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell on their faces.

• Joshua 5
  And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
  And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell upon his face to the earth, and did worship...

In the JST the angel of the Lord is given a different name. Not sure if this means he's not the same angel as other times or merely another name for him. I am still leaning toward the angel being Christ.

Genesis 16
14)And she called the name of the angel of the Lord.

15)And he spake unto her, saying, Knowest thou that God seest thee?

16)And she said, I know that God seest me, for I have also here looked after him.

17)And there was a well between Kadesh and Bered, near where Hagar saw the angel.

18)And the name of the angel was Beer-la-hai-roi; wherefore the well was called Beer-la-hai-roi for a memorial.

STRONGS H883
be'êr lachay rô'ı̂y
be-ayr' lakh-ah'ee ro-ee'
From H875 and H2416 (with prefix) and H7208; well of a living (One) my Seer; Beer-lachai-roi, a place in the Desert: - Beer-lahai-roi.

Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon
(literally well of the living One that seeth me)

Also, the OT does call both the Father and the Son Jehovah (Yahuah).

Isa 44:6  Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 

I love how the both of them referenced together are speaking as one "I". The same verse from the Eth Cepher:

Isa 44:6  Thus says Yahuah the King of Yashar’el, and his Redeemer Yahuah Tseva’oth; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no Elohiym. 

[SPIRIT]

It seems that you now concede that the angel of the Lord's presence is in fact Jehovah (please correct me if I'm mistaken).

Yes, in the sense of the Shema.

I will concede that the Holy Ghost may also be called Jehovah, but this does not appear to be who the scriptures normally refer to as Jehovah. I believe that in the scriptures the name Jehovah typically refers to God the Father and/or Jesus Christ.

I reject the notion that that its some normal or common thing for the Name YHWH to refer the Father in the Old Testament.

Yes I understand you have places like Moses 1 to lean on, but meanwhile on the other side of the scales you need to ignore scriptures like these:

• John 1
  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

• John 14
  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

• Matt 11
  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Jesus Christ was YHWH of the Old Testament, the God of Israel. He is the means by which the Father interacts with fallen humanity. The endowment clearly shows this same pattern I've been talking about since 3Ne15 above, the chain of authority being the Father ----> YHWH ----> Holy Ghost/Apostles

The essential pattern conforms to a baseline framework wherein YHWH = Jesus.

To illustrate this point let's take a look at a few scriptures. We'll begin with Isaiah 53.

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm (Jesus Christ) of the Lord (Jehovah/God the Father) revealed?

2 For he (Jesus Christ) shall grow up before him (Jehovah/God the Father) as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 ¶ Yet it pleased the Lord (Jehovah/God the Father) to bruise him (Jesus Christ); he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord (Jehovah/God the Father) shall prosper in his (Jesus Christ) hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my (Jehovah/God the Father) righteous servant (Jesus Christ) justify many; for he (Jesus Christ) shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I (Jehovah/God the Father) divide him (Jesus Christ) a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

God the Father is Jehovah and Jesus Christ is his arm/servant.

Likely so, though I don't find this to be a particularly substantial refutation that malakh`Jhwh is the 3rd god, especially measured against everything substantiating it.

But also - and this is carefree speculation on my own part - its not some difficult thing to see my framing within Isa`53.

• Matthew 1
  Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

I suspect this speaks to a deep mystery, regarding the sonship and parentage of Jesus Christ, as well as to the curious distinction in the way He'd refer Himself ("Son of Man") versus how others'd refer to Him ("Son of God").

Jesus says that "no man taketh [His] life", but that He lays it down of Himself.

But you have to remember that, upon the cross, Jesus's death is a cosmic ritual sacrifice. And for a sacrifice to be administered, there must needs be a sacrificer, an officiator for the ordinance.

This is the Holy Ghost, the "sword" -

• Matthew 26
  Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

He's quoting this:

• Zechariah 13
  Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered

So if I were to look at this verse through your lens of YHWH = the Father, it would seem He is telling someone referred to as "O Sword".

Why should one assume the linkage b/w the third god and a sword?

• Ephesians 6
  and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

"the Spirit, which is the word of God", interesting.

• Hebrews 4
  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart [what the Spirit does]

The 3rd member of the Godhead has an established history of association with swords:

• Joshua 5
  When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand.

• Numbers 22
  Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand.

• 1 Chronicles 21
  And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem.

The Holy Ghost was understood anciently as often functioning in a certain martial, military/combat capacity, and has an especial role when it comes to divine intervention in protecting and defending God's chosen:

• Psalm 34
  The angel of the LORD encampeth [military term] round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

• Isaiah 63 [this verse also proves how the angel = the Holy Spirit]
  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.
  But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy [instead of their guardian protector], and himself fought against them [instead of for them, against their enemies].

• Psalm 35
  Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.
  Let them be like chaff before the wind, with the angel of the LORD driving them away!

• Daniel 3
  Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods...”
  Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who has sent his angel and delivered his servants, who trusted in him, and set aside the king’s command, and yielded up their bodies rather than serve and worship any god except their own God.

This yet bolsters even further the understanding of God sending malakh`Jhwh to "deliver" Abram in Ur, his life being threatened by pagan ritual sacrifice.

He likewise may well be the "destroyer" of the Passover narrative, which would further support him being the agent of carrying out Christ's crucifixion - since Jesus carried out his sacrifice during not the Feast of the Day of Atonement (Autumn), but rather the Feast of Passover (Springtime)

Its also why we see him as the agent of God's pre-dawn massacre of the assyrians besieging Jerusalem:

• Isaiah 37
  And the angel of the LORD went out and struck down 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies.

So all that seems to sufficient to establish that the "sword" who "smites the shepherd" = malakh`Jhwh.

Now, I have more reasons to suspect this as well.

It may very well be the case that the Angel of YHWH is not only equivalent to the Holy Ghost, but that these figures are also equivalent to Michael/Adam.

This is perfectly coherent with the LDS understanding that Michael wasthe #3 in the Creation coalition, after the first Two of the Godhead, Michael being highest in authority and intelligence, surpassed only by Christ Himself.

An Isa53 scenario, Jesus being the "son of man" (adam), and the one who is put to death by His "father" (who Matthew said was the Holy Spirit) for his transgression in Eden.

Tim: It's a messenger. It's an angelic messenger that appears to look like a human and is distinct from Yahweh. But then in other parts of the story, that same figure is Yahweh. These texts create a huge conversation that goes back thousands of years. And what you see in the Jewish literature of the Second Temple period is there are many different suggestions for who this figure is. This figure is given names. Some people think it's Mikha'el - Michael. In later Jewish literature—

Jon: Because that name means "My name is El."

Tim: Who is like El.

Jon: Who is like El.

Tim: Yeah, that's right. So Michael, archangel.

Jon: What does that mean, the archangel?

Tim: A chief angel. A chief angel who isn't just Yahweh but is so— Jon: He's up the pecking order.

Tim: He's the top of the Elohim.

Jon: He's the chief of staff.

Tim: Yeah, chief of staff.

One way to show malakh`Jhwh = Michael = Israel's national representative Prince.

Because, in fact, the various nations/tribes who were dispersed at Babel were each assigned their own temporary patron-deities, rulers whose authority was delegated from God (because the nations rejected Him; resulting in Him functioning solely as a God to Israel alone):

• Deut 32
  When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
  But the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.

• Deuteronomy 4
  And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the LORD your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.
  But the LORD has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of his own inheritance, as you are this day.

Each nation/tribe/language has its own patron deity.

Now, YHWH says that He is the representative patron of Israel. However, you also get stuff like:

• Daniel 12
  At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people.

This princely jurisdiction seems corroborated in Dead Sea traditions:

To the instructor, for demonstrating and for teaching all the Sons of Light concerning the origin of mankind; for knowing every type of their spirits by their tokens, and of their deeds by their history. They are the spirits of truth a fountain of light. In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness; upon the ways of light they walk. But in the hand of the Angel of Darkness is the rule of Sons of Deception . . . . And by the Prince of Darkness all the Sons of Righteousness went astray, so that all their sins and transgressions and guilt and the trespasses of their ways are in his power, according to the deep designs of God, until his appointed end. .. .
And all the spirits that follow him attempt to overthrow the Sons of Light, while the God of Israel and the Angel of Truth assist all the Sons of Light. It was he who created the spirits of light and...

Today is His appointed time to subdue and to humiliate the prince of the realm of wickedness. He will send eternal support to the company of His redeemed by the power of the majestic angel, of the authority of Michael. By eternal light He shall joyfully light up the covenant of Israel peace and blessing for the lot of God, to exalt the authority of Michael among the gods and the dominion of Israel among all flesh. Righteousness shall rejoice on high, and all sons of His truth shall rejoice in eternal knowledge.

Repeatedly Michael gets loads of various epithets, including the "Spirit of Truth". Compare how the DSS talks about Michael with how John and Daniel talk about him:

• John 14
  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

And he will pour out upon him the spirit of truth like water, purging away all abominable falsehood . . .
22. to make known unto the righteous by the knowledge of the Most High and by the wisdom of the Sons of Heaven, for the enlightenment of those who are perfect in the way.

• John 16
  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
  Of sin, because they believe not on me;
  Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness; upon the ways of light they walk. But in the hand of the Angel of Darkness is the rule of Sons of Deception . . . . And by the Prince of Darkness all the Sons of Righteousness went astray, so that all their sins and transgressions and guilt and the trespasses of their ways are in his power, according to the deep designs of God, until his appointed end.

On the day when the Kittim fall there shall be a battle and horrible carnage before the God of Israel, for it is a day appointed by Him from ancient times as a battle of annihilation for the Sons of Darkness. On that day the congregation of the gods and the congregation of men shall engage one another, resulting in great carnage.
The Sons of Light and the forces of Darkness shall fight together to show the strength of God with the roar of a great multitude and the shout of gods and men; a day of disaster.

And when the] banners of the infantry cause their hearts to melt, then the strength of God will strengthen the he[arts of the Sons of Light.]: the great hand of God shall overcome [Belial and al]l the angels of his dominion, and all the men of [his forces shall be destroyed forever].

• Daniel 12
  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

The Sons of Light and the forces of Darkness shall fight together to show the strength of God with the roar of a great multitude and the shout of gods and men; a day of disaster. It is a time of distress fo[r al]l the people who are redeemed by God.

• Daniel 12
  at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

and into the lot of light You cast us in accordance with Your truth. You appointed the Prince of Light from of old to assist us, for in His lot are all sons of righteous]ness and all spirits of truth are in his dominion.

• Daniel 12
  Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.

And he will pour out upon him a spirit of truth like water to make known (or instruct) the righteous by the knowledge of the Most High (ʿElyon) and by (or in) the wisdom of the Sons of Heaven

• Daniel 12
  And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Light

Also compare with the OMAS of D&C 85 -

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong

Rise up, O Hero, take Your captives, O Glorious One, take Your plunder, O You who do valiantly. Lay Your hand upon the neck of Your enemies, and Your foot upon the backs of the slain.

• D&C 85
  holding the scepter of power in his hand

In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness

• D&C 85
  clothed with light for a covering

with a crown of glory, along with a garment of splendor in eternal light.

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words

to exalt the authority of Michael among the gods

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  his bowels shall be a fountain of truth

he is the spirit of truth, a fountain of light

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found

and into the lot of light You cast us in accordance with Your truth. You appointed the Prince of Light from of old to assist us, for in His lot are all sons of righteous]ness and all spirits of truth are in his dominion.

Michael is well-known in his role as a divine warrior and captain of the Lord's armies:

• Daniel 10
  there is none who contends [just like how malakh`Jhwh contends]by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

• Joshua 5
  And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
  And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come.

• Rev 12
  Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,

Regarding the above, Michael vs the Dragon, this is the same as the "arm of YHWH" who - by virtue of chopping up the primordial chaos`dragon into pieces -- from which he was able to create the world. The notion that Michael is the means and agency by which the world was created is unique to the LDS - yet the scriptures vindicate this, since thats what dragon-slaying is: creating a new world.

• Isa 51
  Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon?

Isaiah says three times for the arm of JHWH "awake!" - calling back to the original "deep sleep" the Lord had put upon him back in Eden, in "days of old"...

And what does the next verse say?

• Isa 53
  Was it not you who dried up the sea, the waters of the great deep, who made the depths of the sea a way for the redeemed to pass over?

clear correlation w/ Isa 63.

• Isa 63
  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them...
  Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock?"

Michael/Adam = Angel of the Lord. When Adam was exiled from the garden, he was told thorns and thistles would come out of the earth. And malakh`Jhwh appeared to Moses where? A thorn-bush, and a burning one at that. Hence the association b/w the Angel of JHWH and Fire:

• Exodus 3
  2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

• Daniel 3
  He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

• Judges 6
  Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.

• Judges 13
  For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar.

Hence the association b/w the Holy Ghost and the purging/cleansing of divine Fire

• Matt 3
  11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

• Isaiah 4
  When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

• Acts 2
  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
  And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

• Isaiah 9
  For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

• Malachi 3
  for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
  He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the LORD.

• Zechariah 13
  And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”

This is all in context of the Baptism of Fire, and of the Holy Spirit. We know this because ^that "they are my people" bit in Zech13 is specifically a New-Covenant phrase:

• Ezekiel 36
  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
  You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

The Spirit is he who strives with/contends with mankind:

• Genesis 6
  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man [unlike the Comforter Jesus promised, who abides forever] for that he also is flesh

• Daniel 10
  there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

• Genesis 32
  And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day.
  When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him...
  Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

There's a theme with malakh`Jhwh where people keep trying to learn his name, which he keeps a secret.


This is because it is a "new name" which isn't to be divulged. You will notice that in the Genesis narrative, Eve gets her new name (first one was simply "woman"), but curiously, not Adam...

• Gen 32
  Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him.

• Judges 13
  And Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words are fulfilled, we may honor you?”
  And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

In the Endowment drama, Adam is ministered unto and empowered by the Apostles. Whereas in the New Testament its the Holy Spirit who ministers unto and empowers the Apostles. Not a coincidence.

Also the fact that the first we meet the angel is the scene with Hagar, which links right back up to Adam (and Eve), since Hagar herself is emblematic of Adam's transgression. She is the "fruit" that is "good" in the "eyes" of Sarah (Eve), who "takes" her and "gives to her husband" -

"God makes this promise of a lot of seed (family), but he's really old, and his wife's really old and she's never been able to have kids. That becomes the plot conflict of Abraham's story. How's he can get a kid. They attempt to generate a child by their own wisdom. They do what is good in their eyes is the actual phrase used in Genesis 16. We've talked about the story before - the story of Hagar.

He listens to the voice of his wife, which is what Adam did to Eve. And it's a very unique phrase. It's not used very often to listen to the voice of your wife. It's using Genesis 3. It's used in Genesis 16. He listened to the voice of his wife. What does his wife say? She says, "I can't produce children. So I've got an idea. Use my Egyptian slave." Abraham says, "Do what is good in your eyes." That's exactly the phrase for what Eve did. But then Hagar, the Egyptian slave gets pregnant, and now Sarah's jealous. Then she presses the Egyptian. It's inversion of the Exodus, where the Egyptians would press the Israelites. The Exodus story is a sad inverted consequence of Abraham and Sarah oppressing an Egyptian slave. Anyhow. Then Sarah took Hagar, gave her to her husband just like Eve took of the fruit, gave it to her husband. The whole thing, this is Abraham...

Abraham and Sarah are portrayed as reenacting their Adam and Eve story. They're trying to get a child by doing what is wise in their own eyes, namely, abusing a slave and then oppressing them. That sets in motion and this thing where now they have gained a child through ra', by doing ra' to another person. Because of their evil that ended up in the oppression of a slave and the exiling of a son, what God does is give them an actual son through Sarah, but then he demands the life of that son in Genesis 22. He says, "Give him up as an essential offering."

In other words, the whole story is God says, "I'm going to give you seed." Then there's a story of them getting a seed by their own wisdom and they end up hurting all these people. When God finally gives them a seed, a whole drama builds up to God gives them a seed (a son), and then He asked for that son back. We're told at the beginning story that it's a test. They failed the first time. They didn't trust. Are they going to succeed this time? In this story, Genesis 22...

I can quote you many more similar examples as they are all over the scriptures.

Me too, I have certainly not exhausted my evidences by any stretch, and what's more is that many which I've already shared you seem to have ignored.

Yes. Michael is the Holy Ghost. And Jehovah breathed life into Michael in the garden. And the Holy Ghost (Michael) moved upon Mary when Jesus was conceived. They literally gave each other life. This is why Christ refers to himself as the son of man.

so IF the Holy Ghost is Michael,
how do you resolve this below -
and who the Holy Ghost really is -
about the Holy Ghost being someone other than the Lord's spirit.

This one scripture lays to waste the hundreds of pages posted
saying the Holy Ghost is someone else.
There's nothing else to say - the scriptures speak for themselves.

"Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore,
they speak the words of Christ.
Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ;
for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do."
(and who guides you and teaches you, and "tells you all things what ye should do" ?
The Holy Ghost - The Lord's spirit)
2 Nephi 32




Doctrine and Covenants
Section 36
2 And I will lay my hand upon you by the hand of my servant Sidney Rigdon,
and you shall receive my Spirit, the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter,
which shall teach you the peaceable things of the kingdom;


John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

[Mamabear]

It seems that you now concede that the angel of the Lord's presence is in fact Jehovah (please correct me if I'm mistaken).

Yes, in the sense of the Shema.

I will concede that the Holy Ghost may also be called Jehovah, but this does not appear to be who the scriptures normally refer to as Jehovah. I believe that in the scriptures the name Jehovah typically refers to God the Father and/or Jesus Christ.

I reject the notion that that its some normal or common thing for the Name YHWH to refer the Father in the Old Testament.

Yes I understand you have places like Moses 1 to lean on, but meanwhile on the other side of the scales you need to ignore scriptures like these:

• John 1
  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

• John 14
  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

• Matt 11
  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Jesus Christ was YHWH of the Old Testament, the God of Israel. He is the means by which the Father interacts with fallen humanity. The endowment clearly shows this same pattern I've been talking about since 3Ne15 above, the chain of authority being the Father ----> YHWH ----> Holy Ghost/Apostles

The essential pattern conforms to a baseline framework wherein YHWH = Jesus.

To illustrate this point let's take a look at a few scriptures. We'll begin with Isaiah 53.

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm (Jesus Christ) of the Lord (Jehovah/God the Father) revealed?

2 For he (Jesus Christ) shall grow up before him (Jehovah/God the Father) as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 ¶ Yet it pleased the Lord (Jehovah/God the Father) to bruise him (Jesus Christ); he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord (Jehovah/God the Father) shall prosper in his (Jesus Christ) hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my (Jehovah/God the Father) righteous servant (Jesus Christ) justify many; for he (Jesus Christ) shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I (Jehovah/God the Father) divide him (Jesus Christ) a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

God the Father is Jehovah and Jesus Christ is his arm/servant.

Likely so, though I don't find this to be a particularly substantial refutation that malakh`Jhwh is the 3rd god, especially measured against everything substantiating it.

But also - and this is carefree speculation on my own part - its not some difficult thing to see my framing within Isa`53.

• Matthew 1
  Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

I suspect this speaks to a deep mystery, regarding the sonship and parentage of Jesus Christ, as well as to the curious distinction in the way He'd refer Himself ("Son of Man") versus how others'd refer to Him ("Son of God").

Jesus says that "no man taketh [His] life", but that He lays it down of Himself.

But you have to remember that, upon the cross, Jesus's death is a cosmic ritual sacrifice. And for a sacrifice to be administered, there must needs be a sacrificer, an officiator for the ordinance.

This is the Holy Ghost, the "sword" -

• Matthew 26
  Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

He's quoting this:

• Zechariah 13
  Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered

So if I were to look at this verse through your lens of YHWH = the Father, it would seem He is telling someone referred to as "O Sword".

Why should one assume the linkage b/w the third god and a sword?

• Ephesians 6
  and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

"the Spirit, which is the word of God", interesting.

• Hebrews 4
  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart [what the Spirit does]

The 3rd member of the Godhead has an established history of association with swords:

• Joshua 5
  When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand.

• Numbers 22
  Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand.

• 1 Chronicles 21
  And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem.

The Holy Ghost was understood anciently as often functioning in a certain martial, military/combat capacity, and has an especial role when it comes to divine intervention in protecting and defending God's chosen:

• Psalm 34
  The angel of the LORD encampeth [military term] round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

• Isaiah 63 [this verse also proves how the angel = the Holy Spirit]
  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.
  But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy [instead of their guardian protector], and himself fought against them [instead of for them, against their enemies].

• Psalm 35
  Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.
  Let them be like chaff before the wind, with the angel of the LORD driving them away!

• Daniel 3
  Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods...”
  Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who has sent his angel and delivered his servants, who trusted in him, and set aside the king’s command, and yielded up their bodies rather than serve and worship any god except their own God.

This yet bolsters even further the understanding of God sending malakh`Jhwh to "deliver" Abram in Ur, his life being threatened by pagan ritual sacrifice.

He likewise may well be the "destroyer" of the Passover narrative, which would further support him being the agent of carrying out Christ's crucifixion - since Jesus carried out his sacrifice during not the Feast of the Day of Atonement (Autumn), but rather the Feast of Passover (Springtime)

Its also why we see him as the agent of God's pre-dawn massacre of the assyrians besieging Jerusalem:

• Isaiah 37
  And the angel of the LORD went out and struck down 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies.

So all that seems to sufficient to establish that the "sword" who "smites the shepherd" = malakh`Jhwh.

Now, I have more reasons to suspect this as well.

It may very well be the case that the Angel of YHWH is not only equivalent to the Holy Ghost, but that these figures are also equivalent to Michael/Adam.

This is perfectly coherent with the LDS understanding that Michael wasthe #3 in the Creation coalition, after the first Two of the Godhead, Michael being highest in authority and intelligence, surpassed only by Christ Himself.

An Isa53 scenario, Jesus being the "son of man" (adam), and the one who is put to death by His "father" (who Matthew said was the Holy Spirit) for his transgression in Eden.

Tim: It's a messenger. It's an angelic messenger that appears to look like a human and is distinct from Yahweh. But then in other parts of the story, that same figure is Yahweh. These texts create a huge conversation that goes back thousands of years. And what you see in the Jewish literature of the Second Temple period is there are many different suggestions for who this figure is. This figure is given names. Some people think it's Mikha'el - Michael. In later Jewish literature—

Jon: Because that name means "My name is El."

Tim: Who is like El.

Jon: Who is like El.

Tim: Yeah, that's right. So Michael, archangel.

Jon: What does that mean, the archangel?

Tim: A chief angel. A chief angel who isn't just Yahweh but is so— Jon: He's up the pecking order.

Tim: He's the top of the Elohim.

Jon: He's the chief of staff.

Tim: Yeah, chief of staff.

One way to show malakh`Jhwh = Michael = Israel's national representative Prince.

Because, in fact, the various nations/tribes who were dispersed at Babel were each assigned their own temporary patron-deities, rulers whose authority was delegated from God (because the nations rejected Him; resulting in Him functioning solely as a God to Israel alone):

• Deut 32
  When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
  But the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.

• Deuteronomy 4
  And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the LORD your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.
  But the LORD has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of his own inheritance, as you are this day.

Each nation/tribe/language has its own patron deity.

Now, YHWH says that He is the representative patron of Israel. However, you also get stuff like:

• Daniel 12
  At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people.

This princely jurisdiction seems corroborated in Dead Sea traditions:

To the instructor, for demonstrating and for teaching all the Sons of Light concerning the origin of mankind; for knowing every type of their spirits by their tokens, and of their deeds by their history. They are the spirits of truth a fountain of light. In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness; upon the ways of light they walk. But in the hand of the Angel of Darkness is the rule of Sons of Deception . . . . And by the Prince of Darkness all the Sons of Righteousness went astray, so that all their sins and transgressions and guilt and the trespasses of their ways are in his power, according to the deep designs of God, until his appointed end. .. .
And all the spirits that follow him attempt to overthrow the Sons of Light, while the God of Israel and the Angel of Truth assist all the Sons of Light. It was he who created the spirits of light and...

Today is His appointed time to subdue and to humiliate the prince of the realm of wickedness. He will send eternal support to the company of His redeemed by the power of the majestic angel, of the authority of Michael. By eternal light He shall joyfully light up the covenant of Israel peace and blessing for the lot of God, to exalt the authority of Michael among the gods and the dominion of Israel among all flesh. Righteousness shall rejoice on high, and all sons of His truth shall rejoice in eternal knowledge.

Repeatedly Michael gets loads of various epithets, including the "Spirit of Truth". Compare how the DSS talks about Michael with how John and Daniel talk about him:

• John 14
  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

And he will pour out upon him the spirit of truth like water, purging away all abominable falsehood . . .
22. to make known unto the righteous by the knowledge of the Most High and by the wisdom of the Sons of Heaven, for the enlightenment of those who are perfect in the way.

• John 16
  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
  Of sin, because they believe not on me;
  Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness; upon the ways of light they walk. But in the hand of the Angel of Darkness is the rule of Sons of Deception . . . . And by the Prince of Darkness all the Sons of Righteousness went astray, so that all their sins and transgressions and guilt and the trespasses of their ways are in his power, according to the deep designs of God, until his appointed end.

On the day when the Kittim fall there shall be a battle and horrible carnage before the God of Israel, for it is a day appointed by Him from ancient times as a battle of annihilation for the Sons of Darkness. On that day the congregation of the gods and the congregation of men shall engage one another, resulting in great carnage.
The Sons of Light and the forces of Darkness shall fight together to show the strength of God with the roar of a great multitude and the shout of gods and men; a day of disaster.

And when the] banners of the infantry cause their hearts to melt, then the strength of God will strengthen the he[arts of the Sons of Light.]: the great hand of God shall overcome [Belial and al]l the angels of his dominion, and all the men of [his forces shall be destroyed forever].

• Daniel 12
  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

The Sons of Light and the forces of Darkness shall fight together to show the strength of God with the roar of a great multitude and the shout of gods and men; a day of disaster. It is a time of distress fo[r al]l the people who are redeemed by God.

• Daniel 12
  at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

and into the lot of light You cast us in accordance with Your truth. You appointed the Prince of Light from of old to assist us, for in His lot are all sons of righteous]ness and all spirits of truth are in his dominion.

• Daniel 12
  Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.

And he will pour out upon him a spirit of truth like water to make known (or instruct) the righteous by the knowledge of the Most High (ʿElyon) and by (or in) the wisdom of the Sons of Heaven

• Daniel 12
  And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Light

Also compare with the OMAS of D&C 85 -

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong

Rise up, O Hero, take Your captives, O Glorious One, take Your plunder, O You who do valiantly. Lay Your hand upon the neck of Your enemies, and Your foot upon the backs of the slain.

• D&C 85
  holding the scepter of power in his hand

In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness

• D&C 85
  clothed with light for a covering

with a crown of glory, along with a garment of splendor in eternal light.

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words

to exalt the authority of Michael among the gods

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  his bowels shall be a fountain of truth

he is the spirit of truth, a fountain of light

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found

and into the lot of light You cast us in accordance with Your truth. You appointed the Prince of Light from of old to assist us, for in His lot are all sons of righteous]ness and all spirits of truth are in his dominion.

Michael is well-known in his role as a divine warrior and captain of the Lord's armies:

• Daniel 10
  there is none who contends [just like how malakh`Jhwh contends]by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

• Joshua 5
  And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
  And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come.

• Rev 12
  Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,

Regarding the above, Michael vs the Dragon, this is the same as the "arm of YHWH" who - by virtue of chopping up the primordial chaos`dragon into pieces -- from which he was able to create the world. The notion that Michael is the means and agency by which the world was created is unique to the LDS - yet the scriptures vindicate this, since thats what dragon-slaying is: creating a new world.

• Isa 51
  Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon?

Isaiah says three times for the arm of JHWH "awake!" - calling back to the original "deep sleep" the Lord had put upon him back in Eden, in "days of old"...

And what does the next verse say?

• Isa 53
  Was it not you who dried up the sea, the waters of the great deep, who made the depths of the sea a way for the redeemed to pass over?

clear correlation w/ Isa 63.

• Isa 63
  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them...
  Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock?"

Michael/Adam = Angel of the Lord. When Adam was exiled from the garden, he was told thorns and thistles would come out of the earth. And malakh`Jhwh appeared to Moses where? A thorn-bush, and a burning one at that. Hence the association b/w the Angel of JHWH and Fire:

• Exodus 3
  2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

• Daniel 3
  He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

• Judges 6
  Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.

• Judges 13
  For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar.

Hence the association b/w the Holy Ghost and the purging/cleansing of divine Fire

• Matt 3
  11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

• Isaiah 4
  When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

• Acts 2
  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
  And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

• Isaiah 9
  For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

• Malachi 3
  for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
  He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the LORD.

• Zechariah 13
  And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”

This is all in context of the Baptism of Fire, and of the Holy Spirit. We know this because ^that "they are my people" bit in Zech13 is specifically a New-Covenant phrase:

• Ezekiel 36
  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
  You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

The Spirit is he who strives with/contends with mankind:

• Genesis 6
  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man [unlike the Comforter Jesus promised, who abides forever] for that he also is flesh

• Daniel 10
  there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

• Genesis 32
  And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day.
  When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him...
  Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

There's a theme with malakh`Jhwh where people keep trying to learn his name, which he keeps a secret.


This is because it is a "new name" which isn't to be divulged. You will notice that in the Genesis narrative, Eve gets her new name (first one was simply "woman"), but curiously, not Adam...

• Gen 32
  Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him.

• Judges 13
  And Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words are fulfilled, we may honor you?”
  And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

In the Endowment drama, Adam is ministered unto and empowered by the Apostles. Whereas in the New Testament its the Holy Spirit who ministers unto and empowers the Apostles. Not a coincidence.

Also the fact that the first we meet the angel is the scene with Hagar, which links right back up to Adam (and Eve), since Hagar herself is emblematic of Adam's transgression. She is the "fruit" that is "good" in the "eyes" of Sarah (Eve), who "takes" her and "gives to her husband" -

"God makes this promise of a lot of seed (family), but he's really old, and his wife's really old and she's never been able to have kids. That becomes the plot conflict of Abraham's story. How's he can get a kid. They attempt to generate a child by their own wisdom. They do what is good in their eyes is the actual phrase used in Genesis 16. We've talked about the story before - the story of Hagar.

He listens to the voice of his wife, which is what Adam did to Eve. And it's a very unique phrase. It's not used very often to listen to the voice of your wife. It's using Genesis 3. It's used in Genesis 16. He listened to the voice of his wife. What does his wife say? She says, "I can't produce children. So I've got an idea. Use my Egyptian slave." Abraham says, "Do what is good in your eyes." That's exactly the phrase for what Eve did. But then Hagar, the Egyptian slave gets pregnant, and now Sarah's jealous. Then she presses the Egyptian. It's inversion of the Exodus, where the Egyptians would press the Israelites. The Exodus story is a sad inverted consequence of Abraham and Sarah oppressing an Egyptian slave. Anyhow. Then Sarah took Hagar, gave her to her husband just like Eve took of the fruit, gave it to her husband. The whole thing, this is Abraham...

Abraham and Sarah are portrayed as reenacting their Adam and Eve story. They're trying to get a child by doing what is wise in their own eyes, namely, abusing a slave and then oppressing them. That sets in motion and this thing where now they have gained a child through ra', by doing ra' to another person. Because of their evil that ended up in the oppression of a slave and the exiling of a son, what God does is give them an actual son through Sarah, but then he demands the life of that son in Genesis 22. He says, "Give him up as an essential offering."

In other words, the whole story is God says, "I'm going to give you seed." Then there's a story of them getting a seed by their own wisdom and they end up hurting all these people. When God finally gives them a seed, a whole drama builds up to God gives them a seed (a son), and then He asked for that son back. We're told at the beginning story that it's a test. They failed the first time. They didn't trust. Are they going to succeed this time? In this story, Genesis 22...

I can quote you many more similar examples as they are all over the scriptures.

Me too, I have certainly not exhausted my evidences by any stretch, and what's more is that many which I've already shared you seem to have ignored.

Yes. Michael is the Holy Ghost. And Jehovah breathed life into Michael in the garden. And the Holy Ghost (Michael) moved upon Mary when Jesus was conceived. They literally gave each other life. This is why Christ refers to himself as the son of man.

so IF the Holy Ghost is Michael,
how do you resolve this below -
and who the Holy Ghost really is -
about the Holy Ghost being someone other than the Lord's spirit.

This one scripture lays to waste the hundreds of pages posted
saying the Holy Ghost is someone else.
There's nothing else to say - the scriptures speak for themselves.

"Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore,
they speak the words of Christ.
Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ;
for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do."
(and who guides you and teaches you, and "tells you all things what ye should do" ?
The Holy Ghost - The Lord's spirit)
2 Nephi 32




Doctrine and Covenants
Section 36
2 And I will lay my hand upon you by the hand of my servant Sidney Rigdon,
and you shall receive my Spirit, the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter,
which shall teach you the peaceable things of the kingdom;


John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It has been revealed to me.

[BeNotDeceived]

Yes, in the sense of the Shema.

I reject the notion that that its some normal or common thing for the Name YHWH to refer the Father in the Old Testament.

Yes I understand you have places like Moses 1 to lean on, but meanwhile on the other side of the scales you need to ignore scriptures like these:

• John 1
  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

• John 14
  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

• Matt 11
  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Jesus Christ was YHWH of the Old Testament, the God of Israel. He is the means by which the Father interacts with fallen humanity. The endowment clearly shows this same pattern I've been talking about since 3Ne15 above, the chain of authority being the Father ----> YHWH ----> Holy Ghost/Apostles

The essential pattern conforms to a baseline framework wherein YHWH = Jesus.

Likely so, though I don't find this to be a particularly substantial refutation that malakh`Jhwh is the 3rd god, especially measured against everything substantiating it.

But also - and this is carefree speculation on my own part - its not some difficult thing to see my framing within Isa`53.

• Matthew 1
  Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

I suspect this speaks to a deep mystery, regarding the sonship and parentage of Jesus Christ, as well as to the curious distinction in the way He'd refer Himself ("Son of Man") versus how others'd refer to Him ("Son of God").

Jesus says that "no man taketh [His] life", but that He lays it down of Himself.

But you have to remember that, upon the cross, Jesus's death is a cosmic ritual sacrifice. And for a sacrifice to be administered, there must needs be a sacrificer, an officiator for the ordinance.

This is the Holy Ghost, the "sword" -

• Matthew 26
  Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

He's quoting this:

• Zechariah 13
  Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered

So if I were to look at this verse through your lens of YHWH = the Father, it would seem He is telling someone referred to as "O Sword".

Why should one assume the linkage b/w the third god and a sword?

• Ephesians 6
  and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

"the Spirit, which is the word of God", interesting.

• Hebrews 4
  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart [what the Spirit does]

The 3rd member of the Godhead has an established history of association with swords:

• Joshua 5
  When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand.

• Numbers 22
  Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand.

• 1 Chronicles 21
  And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem.

The Holy Ghost was understood anciently as often functioning in a certain martial, military/combat capacity, and has an especial role when it comes to divine intervention in protecting and defending God's chosen:

• Psalm 34
  The angel of the LORD encampeth [military term] round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

• Isaiah 63 [this verse also proves how the angel = the Holy Spirit]
  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.
  But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy [instead of their guardian protector], and himself fought against them [instead of for them, against their enemies].

• Psalm 35
  Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.
  Let them be like chaff before the wind, with the angel of the LORD driving them away!

• Daniel 3
  Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods...”
  Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who has sent his angel and delivered his servants, who trusted in him, and set aside the king’s command, and yielded up their bodies rather than serve and worship any god except their own God.

This yet bolsters even further the understanding of God sending malakh`Jhwh to "deliver" Abram in Ur, his life being threatened by pagan ritual sacrifice.

He likewise may well be the "destroyer" of the Passover narrative, which would further support him being the agent of carrying out Christ's crucifixion - since Jesus carried out his sacrifice during not the Feast of the Day of Atonement (Autumn), but rather the Feast of Passover (Springtime)

Its also why we see him as the agent of God's pre-dawn massacre of the assyrians besieging Jerusalem:

• Isaiah 37
  And the angel of the LORD went out and struck down 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies.

So all that seems to sufficient to establish that the "sword" who "smites the shepherd" = malakh`Jhwh.

Now, I have more reasons to suspect this as well.

It may very well be the case that the Angel of YHWH is not only equivalent to the Holy Ghost, but that these figures are also equivalent to Michael/Adam.

This is perfectly coherent with the LDS understanding that Michael wasthe #3 in the Creation coalition, after the first Two of the Godhead, Michael being highest in authority and intelligence, surpassed only by Christ Himself.

An Isa53 scenario, Jesus being the "son of man" (adam), and the one who is put to death by His "father" (who Matthew said was the Holy Spirit) for his transgression in Eden.


One way to show malakh`Jhwh = Michael = Israel's national representative Prince.

Because, in fact, the various nations/tribes who were dispersed at Babel were each assigned their own temporary patron-deities, rulers whose authority was delegated from God (because the nations rejected Him; resulting in Him functioning solely as a God to Israel alone):

• Deut 32
  When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
  But the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.

• Deuteronomy 4
  And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the LORD your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.
  But the LORD has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of his own inheritance, as you are this day.

Each nation/tribe/language has its own patron deity.

Now, YHWH says that He is the representative patron of Israel. However, you also get stuff like:

• Daniel 12
  At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people.

This princely jurisdiction seems corroborated in Dead Sea traditions:






Repeatedly Michael gets loads of various epithets, including the "Spirit of Truth". Compare how the DSS talks about Michael with how John and Daniel talk about him:

• John 14
  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

• John 16
  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
  Of sin, because they believe not on me;
  Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

• Daniel 12
  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

• Daniel 12
  at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

• Daniel 12
  Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.

• Daniel 12
  And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

Also compare with the OMAS of D&C 85 -

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong

• D&C 85
  holding the scepter of power in his hand

• D&C 85
  clothed with light for a covering

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  his bowels shall be a fountain of truth

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found

Michael is well-known in his role as a divine warrior and captain of the Lord's armies:

• Daniel 10
  there is none who contends [just like how malakh`Jhwh contends]by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

• Joshua 5
  And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
  And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come.

• Rev 12
  Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,

Regarding the above, Michael vs the Dragon, this is the same as the "arm of YHWH" who - by virtue of chopping up the primordial chaos`dragon into pieces -- from which he was able to create the world. The notion that Michael is the means and agency by which the world was created is unique to the LDS - yet the scriptures vindicate this, since thats what dragon-slaying is: creating a new world.

• Isa 51
  Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon?

Isaiah says three times for the arm of JHWH "awake!" - calling back to the original "deep sleep" the Lord had put upon him back in Eden, in "days of old"...

And what does the next verse say?

• Isa 53
  Was it not you who dried up the sea, the waters of the great deep, who made the depths of the sea a way for the redeemed to pass over?

clear correlation w/ Isa 63.

• Isa 63
  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them...
  Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock?"

Michael/Adam = Angel of the Lord. When Adam was exiled from the garden, he was told thorns and thistles would come out of the earth. And malakh`Jhwh appeared to Moses where? A thorn-bush, and a burning one at that. Hence the association b/w the Angel of JHWH and Fire:

• Exodus 3
  2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

• Daniel 3
  He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

• Judges 6
  Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.

• Judges 13
  For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar.

Hence the association b/w the Holy Ghost and the purging/cleansing of divine Fire

• Matt 3
  11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

• Isaiah 4
  When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

• Acts 2
  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
  And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

• Isaiah 9
  For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

• Malachi 3
  for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
  He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the LORD.

• Zechariah 13
  And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”

This is all in context of the Baptism of Fire, and of the Holy Spirit. We know this because ^that "they are my people" bit in Zech13 is specifically a New-Covenant phrase:

• Ezekiel 36
  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
  You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

The Spirit is he who strives with/contends with mankind:

• Genesis 6
  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man [unlike the Comforter Jesus promised, who abides forever] for that he also is flesh

• Daniel 10
  there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

• Genesis 32
  And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day.
  When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him...
  Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

There's a theme with malakh`Jhwh where people keep trying to learn his name, which he keeps a secret.


This is because it is a "new name" which isn't to be divulged. You will notice that in the Genesis narrative, Eve gets her new name (first one was simply "woman"), but curiously, not Adam...

• Gen 32
  Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him.

• Judges 13
  And Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words are fulfilled, we may honor you?”
  And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

In the Endowment drama, Adam is ministered unto and empowered by the Apostles. Whereas in the New Testament its the Holy Spirit who ministers unto and empowers the Apostles. Not a coincidence.

Also the fact that the first we meet the angel is the scene with Hagar, which links right back up to Adam (and Eve), since Hagar herself is emblematic of Adam's transgression. She is the "fruit" that is "good" in the "eyes" of Sarah (Eve), who "takes" her and "gives to her husband" -



Me too, I have certainly not exhausted my evidences by any stretch, and what's more is that many which I've already shared you seem to have ignored.

Yes. Michael is the Holy Ghost. And Jehovah breathed life into Michael in the garden. And the Holy Ghost (Michael) moved upon Mary when Jesus was conceived. They literally gave each other life. This is why Christ refers to himself as the son of man.

so IF the Holy Ghost is Michael,
how do you resolve this below -
and who the Holy Ghost really is -
about the Holy Ghost being someone other than the Lord's spirit.

This one scripture lays to waste the hundreds of pages posted
saying the Holy Ghost is someone else.
There's nothing else to say - the scriptures speak for themselves.

"Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore,
they speak the words of Christ.
Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ;
for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do."
(and who guides you and teaches you, and "tells you all things what ye should do" ?
The Holy Ghost - The Lord's spirit)
2 Nephi 32




Doctrine and Covenants
Section 36
2 And I will lay my hand upon you by the hand of my servant Sidney Rigdon,
and you shall receive my Spirit, the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter,
which shall teach you the peaceable things of the kingdom;


John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It has been revealed to me.

Could you be a bit more specific?

[Mamabear]

Yes. Michael is the Holy Ghost. And Jehovah breathed life into Michael in the garden. And the Holy Ghost (Michael) moved upon Mary when Jesus was conceived. They literally gave each other life. This is why Christ refers to himself as the son of man.

so IF the Holy Ghost is Michael,
how do you resolve this below -
and who the Holy Ghost really is -
about the Holy Ghost being someone other than the Lord's spirit.

This one scripture lays to waste the hundreds of pages posted
saying the Holy Ghost is someone else.
There's nothing else to say - the scriptures speak for themselves.

"Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore,
they speak the words of Christ.
Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ;
for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do."
(and who guides you and teaches you, and "tells you all things what ye should do" ?
The Holy Ghost - The Lord's spirit)
2 Nephi 32




Doctrine and Covenants
Section 36
2 And I will lay my hand upon you by the hand of my servant Sidney Rigdon,
and you shall receive my Spirit, the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter,
which shall teach you the peaceable things of the kingdom;


John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It has been revealed to me.

Could you be a bit more specific?

I’m sorry but I can’t. But the great thing is we can receive our own revelation on things if we study and ask, so please don’t take my word for it.
Also, I will say, think about the Godhead that is shown in the temple.

[Mamabear]

Yes. Michael is the Holy Ghost. And Jehovah breathed life into Michael in the garden. And the Holy Ghost (Michael) moved upon Mary when Jesus was conceived. They literally gave each other life. This is why Christ refers to himself as the son of man.

so IF the Holy Ghost is Michael,
how do you resolve this below -
and who the Holy Ghost really is -
about the Holy Ghost being someone other than the Lord's spirit.

This one scripture lays to waste the hundreds of pages posted
saying the Holy Ghost is someone else.
There's nothing else to say - the scriptures speak for themselves.

"Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore,
they speak the words of Christ.
Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ;
for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do."
(and who guides you and teaches you, and "tells you all things what ye should do" ?
The Holy Ghost - The Lord's spirit)
2 Nephi 32




Doctrine and Covenants
Section 36
2 And I will lay my hand upon you by the hand of my servant Sidney Rigdon,
and you shall receive my Spirit, the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter,
which shall teach you the peaceable things of the kingdom;


John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It has been revealed to me.

Could you be a bit more specific?

“Adam … was the first man, who is spoken of in Daniel as being the ‘Ancient of Days’ [Daniel 7:9], or in other words, the first and oldest of all, the great, grand progenitor of whom it is said in another place he is Michael, because he was the first and father of all, not only by progeny, but the first to hold the spiritual blessings, to whom was made known the plan of ordinances for the salvation of his posterity unto the end, and to whom Christ was first revealed, AND THROUGH WHOM CHRIST HAS BEEN REVEALED FROM HEAVEN, AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE REVEALED FROM HENCEFORTH.“
Joseph Smith

[SPIRIT]

Yes, in the sense of the Shema.

I reject the notion that that its some normal or common thing for the Name YHWH to refer the Father in the Old Testament.

Yes I understand you have places like Moses 1 to lean on, but meanwhile on the other side of the scales you need to ignore scriptures like these:

• John 1
  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

• John 14
  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

• Matt 11
  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Jesus Christ was YHWH of the Old Testament, the God of Israel. He is the means by which the Father interacts with fallen humanity. The endowment clearly shows this same pattern I've been talking about since 3Ne15 above, the chain of authority being the Father ----> YHWH ----> Holy Ghost/Apostles

The essential pattern conforms to a baseline framework wherein YHWH = Jesus.

Likely so, though I don't find this to be a particularly substantial refutation that malakh`Jhwh is the 3rd god, especially measured against everything substantiating it.

But also - and this is carefree speculation on my own part - its not some difficult thing to see my framing within Isa`53.

• Matthew 1
  Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

I suspect this speaks to a deep mystery, regarding the sonship and parentage of Jesus Christ, as well as to the curious distinction in the way He'd refer Himself ("Son of Man") versus how others'd refer to Him ("Son of God").

Jesus says that "no man taketh [His] life", but that He lays it down of Himself.

But you have to remember that, upon the cross, Jesus's death is a cosmic ritual sacrifice. And for a sacrifice to be administered, there must needs be a sacrificer, an officiator for the ordinance.

This is the Holy Ghost, the "sword" -

• Matthew 26
  Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

He's quoting this:

• Zechariah 13
  Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered

So if I were to look at this verse through your lens of YHWH = the Father, it would seem He is telling someone referred to as "O Sword".

Why should one assume the linkage b/w the third god and a sword?

• Ephesians 6
  and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

"the Spirit, which is the word of God", interesting.

• Hebrews 4
  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart [what the Spirit does]

The 3rd member of the Godhead has an established history of association with swords:

• Joshua 5
  When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand.

• Numbers 22
  Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand.

• 1 Chronicles 21
  And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem.

The Holy Ghost was understood anciently as often functioning in a certain martial, military/combat capacity, and has an especial role when it comes to divine intervention in protecting and defending God's chosen:

• Psalm 34
  The angel of the LORD encampeth [military term] round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

• Isaiah 63 [this verse also proves how the angel = the Holy Spirit]
  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.
  But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy [instead of their guardian protector], and himself fought against them [instead of for them, against their enemies].

• Psalm 35
  Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.
  Let them be like chaff before the wind, with the angel of the LORD driving them away!

• Daniel 3
  Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods...”
  Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who has sent his angel and delivered his servants, who trusted in him, and set aside the king’s command, and yielded up their bodies rather than serve and worship any god except their own God.

This yet bolsters even further the understanding of God sending malakh`Jhwh to "deliver" Abram in Ur, his life being threatened by pagan ritual sacrifice.

He likewise may well be the "destroyer" of the Passover narrative, which would further support him being the agent of carrying out Christ's crucifixion - since Jesus carried out his sacrifice during not the Feast of the Day of Atonement (Autumn), but rather the Feast of Passover (Springtime)

Its also why we see him as the agent of God's pre-dawn massacre of the assyrians besieging Jerusalem:

• Isaiah 37
  And the angel of the LORD went out and struck down 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies.

So all that seems to sufficient to establish that the "sword" who "smites the shepherd" = malakh`Jhwh.

Now, I have more reasons to suspect this as well.

It may very well be the case that the Angel of YHWH is not only equivalent to the Holy Ghost, but that these figures are also equivalent to Michael/Adam.

This is perfectly coherent with the LDS understanding that Michael wasthe #3 in the Creation coalition, after the first Two of the Godhead, Michael being highest in authority and intelligence, surpassed only by Christ Himself.

An Isa53 scenario, Jesus being the "son of man" (adam), and the one who is put to death by His "father" (who Matthew said was the Holy Spirit) for his transgression in Eden.


One way to show malakh`Jhwh = Michael = Israel's national representative Prince.

Because, in fact, the various nations/tribes who were dispersed at Babel were each assigned their own temporary patron-deities, rulers whose authority was delegated from God (because the nations rejected Him; resulting in Him functioning solely as a God to Israel alone):

• Deut 32
  When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
  But the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.

• Deuteronomy 4
  And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the LORD your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.
  But the LORD has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of his own inheritance, as you are this day.

Each nation/tribe/language has its own patron deity.

Now, YHWH says that He is the representative patron of Israel. However, you also get stuff like:

• Daniel 12
  At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people.

This princely jurisdiction seems corroborated in Dead Sea traditions:






Repeatedly Michael gets loads of various epithets, including the "Spirit of Truth". Compare how the DSS talks about Michael with how John and Daniel talk about him:

• John 14
  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

• John 16
  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
  Of sin, because they believe not on me;
  Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

• Daniel 12
  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

• Daniel 12
  at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

• Daniel 12
  Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.

• Daniel 12
  And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

Also compare with the OMAS of D&C 85 -

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong

• D&C 85
  holding the scepter of power in his hand

• D&C 85
  clothed with light for a covering

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  his bowels shall be a fountain of truth

• Doctrine & Covenants 85
  and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found

Michael is well-known in his role as a divine warrior and captain of the Lord's armies:

• Daniel 10
  there is none who contends [just like how malakh`Jhwh contends]by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

• Joshua 5
  And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
  And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come.

• Rev 12
  Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,

Regarding the above, Michael vs the Dragon, this is the same as the "arm of YHWH" who - by virtue of chopping up the primordial chaos`dragon into pieces -- from which he was able to create the world. The notion that Michael is the means and agency by which the world was created is unique to the LDS - yet the scriptures vindicate this, since thats what dragon-slaying is: creating a new world.

• Isa 51
  Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon?

Isaiah says three times for the arm of JHWH "awake!" - calling back to the original "deep sleep" the Lord had put upon him back in Eden, in "days of old"...

And what does the next verse say?

• Isa 53
  Was it not you who dried up the sea, the waters of the great deep, who made the depths of the sea a way for the redeemed to pass over?

clear correlation w/ Isa 63.

• Isa 63
  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them...
  Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock?"

Michael/Adam = Angel of the Lord. When Adam was exiled from the garden, he was told thorns and thistles would come out of the earth. And malakh`Jhwh appeared to Moses where? A thorn-bush, and a burning one at that. Hence the association b/w the Angel of JHWH and Fire:

• Exodus 3
  2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

• Daniel 3
  He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

• Judges 6
  Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.

• Judges 13
  For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar.

Hence the association b/w the Holy Ghost and the purging/cleansing of divine Fire

• Matt 3
  11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

• Isaiah 4
  When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

• Acts 2
  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
  And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

• Isaiah 9
  For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

• Malachi 3
  for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
  He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the LORD.

• Zechariah 13
  And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”

This is all in context of the Baptism of Fire, and of the Holy Spirit. We know this because ^that "they are my people" bit in Zech13 is specifically a New-Covenant phrase:

• Ezekiel 36
  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
  You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

The Spirit is he who strives with/contends with mankind:

• Genesis 6
  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man [unlike the Comforter Jesus promised, who abides forever] for that he also is flesh

• Daniel 10
  there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

• Genesis 32
  And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day.
  When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him...
  Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

There's a theme with malakh`Jhwh where people keep trying to learn his name, which he keeps a secret.


This is because it is a "new name" which isn't to be divulged. You will notice that in the Genesis narrative, Eve gets her new name (first one was simply "woman"), but curiously, not Adam...

• Gen 32
  Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him.

• Judges 13
  And Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words are fulfilled, we may honor you?”
  And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

In the Endowment drama, Adam is ministered unto and empowered by the Apostles. Whereas in the New Testament its the Holy Spirit who ministers unto and empowers the Apostles. Not a coincidence.

Also the fact that the first we meet the angel is the scene with Hagar, which links right back up to Adam (and Eve), since Hagar herself is emblematic of Adam's transgression. She is the "fruit" that is "good" in the "eyes" of Sarah (Eve), who "takes" her and "gives to her husband" -



Me too, I have certainly not exhausted my evidences by any stretch, and what's more is that many which I've already shared you seem to have ignored.

Yes. Michael is the Holy Ghost. And Jehovah breathed life into Michael in the garden. And the Holy Ghost (Michael) moved upon Mary when Jesus was conceived. They literally gave each other life. This is why Christ refers to himself as the son of man.

so IF the Holy Ghost is Michael,
how do you resolve this below -
and who the Holy Ghost really is -
about the Holy Ghost being someone other than the Lord's spirit.

This one scripture lays to waste the hundreds of pages posted
saying the Holy Ghost is someone else.
There's nothing else to say - the scriptures speak for themselves.

"Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore,
they speak the words of Christ.
Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ;
for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do."
(and who guides you and teaches you, and "tells you all things what ye should do" ?
The Holy Ghost - The Lord's spirit)
2 Nephi 32




Doctrine and Covenants
Section 36
2 And I will lay my hand upon you by the hand of my servant Sidney Rigdon,
and you shall receive my Spirit, the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter,
which shall teach you the peaceable things of the kingdom;


John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It has been revealed to me.

So I guess then, the person I really need to be receiving my own revelation from, is really
Michael -
(who is really The Holy Ghost (according to you)
who is Adam
who is Jesus Christ
who is God ?

[Mamabear]

Yes. Michael is the Holy Ghost. And Jehovah breathed life into Michael in the garden. And the Holy Ghost (Michael) moved upon Mary when Jesus was conceived. They literally gave each other life. This is why Christ refers to himself as the son of man.

so IF the Holy Ghost is Michael,
how do you resolve this below -
and who the Holy Ghost really is -
about the Holy Ghost being someone other than the Lord's spirit.

This one scripture lays to waste the hundreds of pages posted
saying the Holy Ghost is someone else.
There's nothing else to say - the scriptures speak for themselves.

"Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore,
they speak the words of Christ.
Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ;
for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do."
(and who guides you and teaches you, and "tells you all things what ye should do" ?
The Holy Ghost - The Lord's spirit)
2 Nephi 32




Doctrine and Covenants
Section 36
2 And I will lay my hand upon you by the hand of my servant Sidney Rigdon,
and you shall receive my Spirit, the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter,
which shall teach you the peaceable things of the kingdom;


John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It has been revealed to me.

So I guess then, the person I really need to be receiving my own revelation from, is really
Michael -
(who is really The Holy Ghost (according to you)
who is Adam
who is Jesus Christ
who is God ?

God-Father, Jesus-Son, Holy Ghost- Adam.
I will not contend with anyone over my beliefs. You can think I’m a dummy and we can still be friends. Good day.

[Luke]

Adam - Father
Jesus - Son
Mind of God - Holy Ghost

My belief

[SPIRIT]

so IF the Holy Ghost is Michael,
how do you resolve this below -
and who the Holy Ghost really is -
about the Holy Ghost being someone other than the Lord's spirit.

This one scripture lays to waste the hundreds of pages posted
saying the Holy Ghost is someone else.
There's nothing else to say - the scriptures speak for themselves.

"Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore,
they speak the words of Christ.
Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ;
for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do."
(and who guides you and teaches you, and "tells you all things what ye should do" ?
The Holy Ghost - The Lord's spirit)
2 Nephi 32




Doctrine and Covenants
Section 36
2 And I will lay my hand upon you by the hand of my servant Sidney Rigdon,
and you shall receive my Spirit, the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter,
which shall teach you the peaceable things of the kingdom;


John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It has been revealed to me.

So I guess then, the person I really need to be receiving my own revelation from, is really
Michael -
(who is really The Holy Ghost (according to you)
who is Adam
who is Jesus Christ
who is God ?

God-Father, Jesus-Son, Holy Ghost- Adam.
I will not contend with anyone over my beliefs. You can think I’m a dummy and we can still be friends. Good day.

so sorry you felt that way, but I really didn't mean to challenge you or your beliefs -
just really trying to understand what you are saying and the way you see it.
I'm really not even so sure how I even see it - you could be right.

btw - I could never think you were a dummy.
I think you are very knowledgeable.
You've helped me much with your insights.
thank you Mamabear.

[Mamabear]

It has been revealed to me.

So I guess then, the person I really need to be receiving my own revelation from, is really
Michael -
(who is really The Holy Ghost (according to you)
who is Adam
who is Jesus Christ
who is God ?

God-Father, Jesus-Son, Holy Ghost- Adam.
I will not contend with anyone over my beliefs. You can think I’m a dummy and we can still be friends. Good day.

so sorry you felt that way, but I really didn't mean to challenge you or your beliefs -
just really trying to understand what you are saying and the way you see it.
I'm really not even so sure how I even see it - you could be right.

btw - I could never think you were a dummy.
I think you are very knowledgeable.
You've helped me much with your insights.
thank you Mamabear.

Thank you Spirit, that’s very kind. I like to joke a lot. It’s part of who I am (The dummy thing). I wasn’t offended by your comments at all. Personally, I have a hard time with all the contention in these threads and I try hard not to participate. So I was being kind of paranoid.
I could be wrong about things and that’s why I said each needs their own witness and answer. Maybe I shouldn’t have shared what I did.
What it comes down to is that we don’t have all the answers and each seeks their own. Luke believes differently from than you or me. It’s all good. The main thing is that we agree that Jesus is our Savior and maybe the other mysteries don’t matter as much. Blessings on your journey!