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Cruiserdude
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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by Cruiserdude »

Neophyte wrote: December 3rd, 2021, 1:51 pm
kirtland r.m. wrote: December 1st, 2021, 5:03 pm Neophyte, keep in touch, and let us know how you are doing. Use this thread if you wish. Your hard work will all be worth it. You also have many friends here. ;) ;) ;)
Thank you so much. I've called up the mission leader in the new town I'm moving to, and he said my records still say I'm a member in good standing, which was a great relief. I'll keep you updated as to how things move along. I've been praying hard and studying the BoM and a few books pertaining to Israelite and Christian history, and hope in time to receive my Patriarchal Blessing.
I love your story Neophyte. Please keep in touch with us here.
Hermano, stay true to Jesus and to the Spirit and you will feel peace and love that isn't known or found any other way. Nothing else compares. Keep all other things in their proper perspective.
The plan of salvation/happiness/mercy is undeniably true. Jesus Christ and His Atonement are undeniably the cornerstone of that plan.

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~ternal-tummim
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Posts: 1000

Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by ~ternal-tummim »

Neophyte wrote: December 3rd, 2021, 1:51 pm
kirtland r.m. wrote: December 1st, 2021, 5:03 pm Neophyte, keep in touch, and let us know how you are doing. Use this thread if you wish. Your hard work will all be worth it. You also have many friends here. ;) ;) ;)
Thank you so much. I've called up the mission leader in the new town I'm moving to, and he said my records still say I'm a member in good standing, which was a great relief. I'll keep you updated as to how things move along. I've been praying hard and studying the BoM and a few books pertaining to Israelite and Christian history, and hope in time to receive my Patriarchal Blessing.
That’s awesome, man!

👍🏻

💪🏻

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SPIRIT
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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by SPIRIT »

Atticus wrote: November 30th, 2021, 4:14 pm
Luke wrote: November 30th, 2021, 11:40 am
Atticus wrote: November 29th, 2021, 8:02 pm While the church may not be the gospel it is definitely the vehicle by which the fulness of the gospel is administered. If you turn your back on the Lord's church, then there goes your access to the fulness of the gospel.
A vehicle maybe, but not THE vehicle.

The Priesthood is above the Church, since it existed from the foundation of the world. The Aaronic Priesthood was first given before any institutional Church was founded.

Keeping your fixation on an earthly institution as the only place where salvation can be found (as you suppose) will prove a stumbling-block to you and many others. It is a false teaching. Do not believe it.
At present the church is THE vehicle for administering the fulness of the gospel. It is only within the church where the ordinances of salvation can legally be administered. Search the scriptures about the last days and the teachings of Joseph Smith. They both say that the fullness of the gospel is only administered within the Lord's church.

It's blatant false doctrine to teach that the fulness of the gospel is administered anywhere else at present.
At present the church is in full APOSTASY ! ( Isa.1:4 and all through Isaiah)
and never received the fulness.

as usual -quoting myself to you - to this comment you made before -
"The world has rejected the fulness of the gospel, but the saints of God have embraced it"
you are completely wrong - and backwards - as usual.
As I just commented in my other comment - ***

The Saints haven't embraced it -
It's NOT the World - that has rejected the fulness of the gospel. -
We are the ones that received the fulness - and rejected it - just as this scripture says.
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

***
The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness."
(the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; *** compare 3 Nephi 16 - in my comment above

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge;
for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

*** 3 Nephi 16
"and shall reject the fulness of my gospel"


At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall reject my gospel.
Can you reject a gift not offered you?
Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has had the fulness of the gospel revealed to them,
so only we can reject it?

the gospel was restored - as far as we would receive it.
But we lost it about the same time we received it.
It is not still being restored - it is being taken from us.

When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - for the saints to be united - (United Order) living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom, otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself", the saints failed to do so, and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

D&C 105
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;

D&C 101
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

Interesting after being "cast out from the land of their inheritance" how the saints were driven to a salty desert - The Great Salt Lake Desert.
Hmm - wonder if that means anything ? Why Salt Lake City ?
a salty lake and desert.
In 3 Nephi Jesus refers to members as the “Salt of the earth:” "salt that hath lost its savor"

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39-40)

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—
--------------------------------------------------------------
Doctrine and Covenants
Section 101:
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—

2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

D&C 105:
2 "Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer."

For this the Lord said that Zion would have to "wait for a little season"
D&C 105:
9 Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should
wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion—

3 Nephi 16:10,11,12
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

LDS Watchman
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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by LDS Watchman »

SPIRIT wrote: December 3rd, 2021, 5:14 pm
Atticus wrote: November 30th, 2021, 4:14 pm
Luke wrote: November 30th, 2021, 11:40 am
Atticus wrote: November 29th, 2021, 8:02 pm While the church may not be the gospel it is definitely the vehicle by which the fulness of the gospel is administered. If you turn your back on the Lord's church, then there goes your access to the fulness of the gospel.
A vehicle maybe, but not THE vehicle.

The Priesthood is above the Church, since it existed from the foundation of the world. The Aaronic Priesthood was first given before any institutional Church was founded.

Keeping your fixation on an earthly institution as the only place where salvation can be found (as you suppose) will prove a stumbling-block to you and many others. It is a false teaching. Do not believe it.
At present the church is THE vehicle for administering the fulness of the gospel. It is only within the church where the ordinances of salvation can legally be administered. Search the scriptures about the last days and the teachings of Joseph Smith. They both say that the fullness of the gospel is only administered within the Lord's church.

It's blatant false doctrine to teach that the fulness of the gospel is administered anywhere else at present.
At present the church is in full APOSTASY ! ( Isa.1:4 and all through Isaiah)
and never received the fulness.

as usual -quoting myself to you - to this comment you made before -
"The world has rejected the fulness of the gospel, but the saints of God have embraced it"
you are completely wrong - and backwards - as usual.
As I just commented in my other comment - ***

The Saints haven't embraced it -
It's NOT the World - that has rejected the fulness of the gospel. -
We are the ones that received the fulness - and rejected it - just as this scripture says.
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

***
The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness."
(the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; *** compare 3 Nephi 16 - in my comment above

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge;
for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

*** 3 Nephi 16
"and shall reject the fulness of my gospel"


At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall reject my gospel.
Can you reject a gift not offered you?
Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has had the fulness of the gospel revealed to them,
so only we can reject it?

the gospel was restored - as far as we would receive it.
But we lost it about the same time we received it.
It is not still being restored - it is being taken from us.

When the Lord wanted to build up Zion - for the saints to be united - (United Order) living the Law of consecration and live " by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom, otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself", the saints failed to do so, and we have continued to fall more and more ever since.

D&C 105
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;

D&C 101
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

Interesting after being "cast out from the land of their inheritance" how the saints were driven to a salty desert - The Great Salt Lake Desert.
Hmm - wonder if that means anything ? Why Salt Lake City ?
a salty lake and desert.
In 3 Nephi Jesus refers to members as the “Salt of the earth:” "salt that hath lost its savor"

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39-40)

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—
--------------------------------------------------------------
Doctrine and Covenants
Section 101:
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—

2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

D&C 105:
2 "Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer."

For this the Lord said that Zion would have to "wait for a little season"
D&C 105:
9 Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should
wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion—

3 Nephi 16:10,11,12
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.
Isaiah 1:4 says that the Lord's restored church in the last days in in full apostasy? I don't think so. It says that ancient Israel was in apostasy. Have you actually read Isaiah 1?

Your claim that the Lord's restored church in the last days never received the fulness of the gospel is simply ridiculous. The Lord literally declares that the church had received the fulness of his everlasting gospel.

11 And if thou do this, I have prepared thee for a greater work. Thou shalt preach the fulness of my gospel, which I have sent forth in these last days, the covenant which I have sent forth to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel.
D&C 39

2 Verily I say unto you, blessed are you for receiving mine everlasting covenant, even the fulness of my gospel, sent forth unto the children of men, that they might have life and be made partakers of the glories which are to be revealed in the last days, as it was written by the prophets and apostles in days of old.
D&C 66

The church is the house of Israel, not the Gentiles.

But of course you want to have it both ways anyway.

When the scriptures say that the Gentiles reject the fulness of the gospel, then in your book the church is just bunch of Gentiles and not the house of Israel, because of course the church is these very Gentiles. It couldn't possibly be referring to everyone else who rejects the fulness of the gospel offered to them by the church. No, no. It has to be the very ones who accepted the fulness of the gospel and are preaching it. Those are the ones who really rejected it. Because that makes sense, right?

And on the other hand, when Isaiah condemns the apostate house of Israel, now all of a sudden the church is Israel. And some how when Isaiah says Judah and Jerusalem and speaks of animal sacrifice and so forth he couldn't possible be talking about ancient Israel. No, no. He is talking about Salt Lake City and the non-Israelite gentiles who rejected the fulness of the gospel when it was offered to them. Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense.

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SPIRIT
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5690
Location: Kolob

Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by SPIRIT »

boy are you ever mixed up.
this alone - what you said - proves that.
The church is the house of Israel, not the Gentiles.
and what's so ridiculous - is that - in the hundreds of times that "Gentiles" are mentioned
in the Book of Mormon,
you still don't even know that the church - those that received the restored gospel -
are part of those Gentiles
and YOU - are one of them. lol.

but why waste the time - you\re not looking for the truth,
your job here in the forum - is to try to get members to still believe
in a church that has fallen into total apostasy. ( doesn't look like you're getting anywhere)
(the light of truth has a way of shining through darkness - lies and deception)

We all know Christ's gospel; you don't need the church for that,
but the church no longer has it, and no longer follows it.
Anyone with eyes and ears can see that. Just look at what they are doing, and what they have done over the years -
all the ties they have in Babylon and who they follow - and I'll give you a clue - It's NOT the Lord Jesus Christ -
as we can all plainly see.

---------------------------------------
as I said - but why waste the time.
Over the years - using scriptures - I've shown (100's of times) and proven without a shadow of a doubt
that we - the church are Gentiles.
By reading the scriptures, even the most simpleminded member can see and understand that.

you care more about leaders of the church and what they say, than you do in book of Mormon prophets
and even the words of Jesus Christ,
but you won't accept what they say when it doesn't fit the false narrative you are pushing.

The Doctrine and Covenants confirms that the church is identified with the Gentiles…
even Joseph Smith said

60 Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee,
concerning the revelations and commandments which thou
hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles
- Joseph Smith
(D&C 109:60)


and elder McConkie
A Latter-day LDS Leader has stated
We are those Gentiles of whom Nephi speaks. We have received in this age of restoration the fulness of the everlasting gospel. It is now beginning to go from us to the Lamanites and to the Jews. But the great day of the Lamanites and the great day of the Jews both lie ahead…” (McConkie, Millennial Messiah, p 238)


"The LDS people have a tendency, when reading the BOM,
to look at those things spoken of regarding the “Gentiles” in two ways.
One is that all of those things that are of a flattering nature are attributable to the LDS people
and that those things which are of a negative nature and perceived as a call to repentance
are meant for those other people who are the evil “Gentiles”, whoever they are."


***** this scripture alone proves that. -
(there are so may others - that prove we are the Gentiles spoken of in the Book of Mormon)
But I'm not going to waste my time anymore - for members that aren't looking for truth
and don't even accept the scriptures for what they say, and are totally brainwashed by the church.

*****
1 Nephi 15
13 And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches
through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles,
and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed— ***


17 And this is what our father meaneth; and he meaneth that it will not come to pass until after they are scattered by the Gentiles; and he meaneth that it shall come by way of the Gentiles, that the Lord may show his power unto the Gentiles, for the very cause that he shall be rejected of the Jews, or of the house of Israel.

***

"According to Nephi, the Gentiles will take the gospel to the House of Israel.
Israel's salvation comes "by way of the Gentiles"
"In Nephi's terms, those who take the gospel to Lehi's descendants he calls "Gentiles"
Obviously, THESE GENTILES CAN ONLY BE LATTER-DAY SAINTS !;
other Gentiles have not accepted the restored gospel of Jesus Christ."
Last edited by SPIRIT on December 4th, 2021, 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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SPIRIT
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5690
Location: Kolob

Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by SPIRIT »

These are some comments (below) that I've gathered over the years about the LDS being Gentiles

"If the LDS are not Gentiles, can you please tell me who the Gentiles are?
I would like know because they are the subject of many prophecies in the BOM
Including this one in the title page:

"Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God."

"Are there some nonmember, non believing people who have not been baptized that bring forth the BOM?
Please identify who they are. If you can do this you may be able to convince me you are right."

Whoever these Gentiles are they also spread the true gospel to the seed of Lehi:

Mormon 5: 15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.

It also seems these wonderful Gentiles have care ( stewardship) for the House of Israel:

Mormon 5: 10 And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come.

"I do think that is true that a repentant Gentile can be adopted in and receive the same covenant blessings but they still can be identified as Gentiles, just as one can immigrate from Mexico, be adopted as American and receive all the benefits of American citizenship and be an American citizen but still be identified as Mexican.
I think the allegory in Jacob 5 describes the Gentiles as the wild branch vs the natural branch.
But as I said if you can identify who they are...

So see if you can tell me who they are and why it is not the LDS that bring forth the BOM,
spread the gospel of Christ or have care for the House of Israel."

-------------
3 Nephi 23:4

4 "Therefore give heed to my words; write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."
(The Book of Mormon)

Christ also used the name “Gentile” to identify those through whom the gospel would go to the Lamanites. (3 Nephi 21:2–4)
If Church members from Gentile nations will bear in mind that the term “Gentile” when used in the Book of Mormon includes them, the prophecies therein will have much greater meaning and be more disturbing.

3 Nephi 21:

5 Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;

6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;

22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts,
I will establish my church among them, (our church today) and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;
------------------------------------------------------------
Who are the Gentiles spoken of in the Book of Mormon?

The Book of Mormon (BOM) was written for the benefit of all of those living in the latter-days of the worlds existence prior to the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The BOM Prophets, much like the Prophets of the Old and New Testaments saw our day in vision. What they saw pertained primarily to “This Land”, meaning the land upon which the events of the BOM took place (The American Continent) but the implications of what was prophesied to take place pertains to everyone world wide. Those Prophets saw “this land”, peopled by an indigenous race of people differentiated by their skin color from the predominately white settlers who would come to this land and subjugate this indigenous people.
They refer to these indigenous people as Lamanites.
The BOM Prophets refer to the “white settlers” as Gentiles and they also prophesied to a separate group of people, the Jews.

The LDS people have a tendency, when reading the BOM, to look at those things spoken of regarding the “Gentiles” in two ways.
One is that all of those things that are of a flattering nature are attributable to the LDS people and that those things which are of a negative nature and perceived as a call to repentance are meant for those other people who are the evil “Gentiles”, whoever they are.

The BOM was written to three groups: Lamanites – a remnant of the house of Israel, Jews, and Gentiles.
By a simple process of elimination, we can see that the LDS church falls largely into the category of the Gentiles.
In fact, as it states on the title page, the Book of Mormon was ‘to come forth… by way of the Gentile, in spite of the fact that we are also of Ephraim.

From the Book of Mormon Title page: “Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile…Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile— “

BOM Prophets provide further clarification…1Nephi 15:13 And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, … then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed—

3 Nephi 16: 6-7 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father. Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.

Additionally, the Doctrine and Covenants confirms that the church is identified with the Gentiles…D&C 109:60
Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles.

A Latter-day LDS Leader has stated “We are those Gentiles of whom Nephi speaks. We have received in this age of restoration the fulness of the everlasting gospel. It is now beginning to go from us to the Lamanites and to the Jews. But the great day of the Lamanites and the great day of the Jews both lie ahead…” (McConkie, Millennial Messiah, p 238)

If we are to accept the blessings pronounced to the “Gentiles” in the Book of Mormon, should we not seriously consider the warnings to the “Gentiles” that are pronounced throughout the Book of Mormon? The following is Jesus Christ speaking to the Latter-day Gentiles…

3 Nephi 16:10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

Notice that the Lord says not IF but WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel.
Additionally, He says that He will bring the fullness of His gospel from among them.


3 Nephi 21

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

Our only hope is to be numbered with The House of Israel - the Lord's covenant people.
and THAT will ONLY come after we perform our saving mission toward them.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=53789&p=998294#p998294
" The Lord has ordained no salvation or plan of salvation outside of the covenant with His people Israel"

and as I've said before -

"The repentant Gentiles are numbered with The House of Israel ONLY after they
perform their saving mission toward them.
The claim that Latter-Day Saints are of the House of Israel, descending through the mingled lineage of Ephraim, though true, is thus provisional.
Whether Latter-Day Saints are of the House of Israel ultimately depends on whether they fulfill their prophetic mission"

Avraham Gileadi
"As we learn how the scriptures define Gentiles, we also understand what they teach about the role of Latter-day Saints.
The popular notion of Gentiles as non-Mormons appears inadequate when we come to realize the message of The Book of Mormon."

"So long as we think of ourselves as the "good guys" in whatever scriptural scenario we are studying, for example, we will learn very little from the scriptures.
We will not be able to apply their historical lessons to ourselves.
Most important, we will end up with only a hypothetical role or mission to fulfill, one lacking a correct idea of self-identity and purpose.
The scriptures speak of The House of Israel as well as the Gentiles in terms of both good and evil. At the root of the question of identities, therefore, is not who is good and who is bad, but rather what mission God asks us to fulfill."

(please read this)
Avraham Gileadi
"Serving as Kings and Queens of the Gentiles"
http://www.josephandjudah.com/2016/05/s ... tiles.html

this is just a small part taken from his talk.

"There comes a time in life when you have to take stock and ask yourself whether you are, in fact, doing what you came to do in this world. We read scriptures that speak of heroes and heroines who valiantly served God and accomplished miracles that saved much of humanity. Maybe they didn't do so at first, but when they awoke to a sense of who they were, they set about serving God to their utmost without the need to look back. We too seldom come to an awakening of who we are all at once because we often don't see ourselves as anyone special, and because heaven withholds its gifts from us until we finally conform our lives to God's will. But because we have implanted in us his divine gene, we are no less capable of being recreated into something like a god-magnificent and powerful-able to transform the world as did those illustrious forebears.
Thus it is with the end-time kings and queens of the Gentiles whom Isaiah predicts are to restore the house of Israel:

"I will lift up my hand to the Gentiles, raise my ensign to the peoples, and they will bring your sons in their bosoms and carry your daughters on their shoulders. Kings will be your foster fathers and queens your nursing mothers" (Isaiah 49:22-23). It is as if this passage from Isaiah acts as a lifeline that Book of Mormon prophets hold on to, knowing that God made provision from the beginning for those end-time Gentile kings and queens to save their descendants from their lost and fallen and scattered state.
For that reason, Book of Mormon prophets refer back to this passage again and again, as if to inspire those same kings and queens of the Gentiles who read the Book of Mormon to wake up and perform their saving role to the house of Israel. That role, however, has little to do with non-Israelites but everything to do with Israel's birthright tribe of Ephraim whose ancestors assimilated into the Gentiles and became "identified with the Gentiles" (Doctrine & Covenants 109:60).

* (list of things members have done, and continue to do )
"Let us additionally assume that we aren't among those same Gentiles "in Zion" (2 Nephi 28:21, 24, 32) who "are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:14)-those who don't search the scriptures and repent of their error (cf. Jacob 7:23; Alma 14:1; 17:2 33:2; 3 Nephi 10:14) but who are "at ease in Zion" and assume "all is well" (2 Nephi 28:24-25). That we aren't among those who "hearken unto the precepts of men," who disallow "the power of God" in their lives and void "the gift of the Holy Ghost" (2 Nephi 28:26)-those who say, "We have received, and we need no more" (2 Nephi 28:27, 29), who get "angry" when confronted with "the truth of God" found in the scriptures when it conflicts with their "precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:28, 31). That we aren't among those who end up denying the Lord God when his "arm"-his servant in the Book of Isaiah-"is lengthened out all the day long" (2 Nephi 28:32)."

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SPIRIT
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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by SPIRIT »

members like you are so busy worshiping their church leaders,
that they don't even care about what the Lord says and keeping HIS COMMANDMENTS.

keeping the commandment that He gave, to not only read,
but to search diligently the words of Isaiah.

"How some members can put their trust in anyone but the Lord - (I just SMH)
and keeping the commandment He gave to read Isaiah - not only to read but
to "search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah."
He didn't tell us to do this just to give us a nice history listen.
The Lord wouldn't have given this - A COMMANDMENT if it wasn't important and going to apply to us today.
THIS IS THE LORD JESUS CHRIST TALKING AND GIVING US A COMMANDMENT ! - not just some quote
from so-called prophet or someone,
so we'd better listen, and keep this commandment.

********** "HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE"

3 "And all things that he spake (HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE),
even according to the words which he spake." 3 Nephi 23.

So what the Lord is saying is first,
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah.,"
and that, the things that Isaiah is saying are still in the future
"AND SHALL BE even according to the words which he spake." !

3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."


2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."


3 "And all things that he spake have been - and shall be,
even according to the words which he spake."


4 "Therefore give heed to my words;
write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will
of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."

3 Nephi 20:11
11 "Ye remember that I spake unto you,
and said that when the words of Isaiah
should be fulfilled—behold they are written,
ye have them before you, therefore search them-"

"HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE"
********** Isaiah uses what are called types from the past to show the future.
What has happened before, will happen again.

ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ISAIAH PERTAIN TO US TODAY
All prophecies in Isaiah are prophecies of the last days.


Isaiah 44:7
7 "Who predicts what happens as do I, and is the equal of me in
appointing a people from of old as types, foretelling things to come?

Isaiah 46
10 I foretell the end from the beginning,
from ancient times things not yet done.
I speak, and my purposes take effect;
I accomplish all my will.


So, isn't it just a little more than just a coincidence,
that here - first we were put under condemnation for treating the Book of Mormon lightly,
and when we search the Book of Mormon we have the Lord giving us this commandment
to "search diligently" the words of Isaiah,
and when we do, and start to read Isaiah,
what do we find in the very 1st Chapter of the Book ?
We find that Isaiah begins his book with our apostasy.
Hmm - now that's interesting isn't it.


Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know; my people are insensible.

***
4 Alas, a nation astray, a people weighed down by sin, the offspring of wrongdoers, perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah, they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
, they have lapsed into APOSTASY.

From addressing his people personally as “Israel . . . my people” (v 3), Jehovah now addresses them impersonally as “a nation,” signifying their alienated state. Additionally, a regression occurs from his people’s simply going “astray” to their burdening themselves with “sin,” which, over time, ends in outright “wrongdoing.” That occurs collectively and generationally.
The “offspring of wrongdoers” turn into “perverse children,” meaning that the rising generation has by now become thoroughly corrupt. “Forsaking” Jehovah and “spurning” him finally become conscious and deliberate acts.

They have lapsed into apostasy. Hebrew nazoru ahor signifies that Jehovah’s people have become entirely “estranged” from him.
They have “gone backwards” to what they used to be before they became Jehovah’s covenant people, when they didn’t know their God. In effect, they have become godless again like the world’s heathen nations, but now more so because they have rejected the light they once had.
The apostasy into which they began to backslide a generation ago is now complete.
As a consequence, instead of enjoying the blessings of the covenant, they must suffer its curses."

LDS Watchman
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Posts: 7390
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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by LDS Watchman »

SPIRIT wrote: December 4th, 2021, 8:16 am members like you are so busy worshiping their church leaders,
that they don't even care about what the Lord says and keeping HIS COMMANDMENTS.

keeping the commandment that He gave, to not only read,
but to search diligently the words of Isaiah.

"How some members can put their trust in anyone but the Lord - (I just SMH)
and keeping the commandment He gave to read Isaiah - not only to read but
to "search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah."
He didn't tell us to do this just to give us a nice history listen.
The Lord wouldn't have given this - A COMMANDMENT if it wasn't important and going to apply to us today.
THIS IS THE LORD JESUS CHRIST TALKING AND GIVING US A COMMANDMENT ! - not just some quote
from so-called prophet or someone,
so we'd better listen, and keep this commandment.

********** "HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE"

3 "And all things that he spake (HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE),
even according to the words which he spake." 3 Nephi 23.

So what the Lord is saying is first,
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah.,"
and that, the things that Isaiah is saying are still in the future
"AND SHALL BE even according to the words which he spake." !

3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."


2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."


3 "And all things that he spake have been - and shall be,
even according to the words which he spake."


4 "Therefore give heed to my words;
write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will
of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."

3 Nephi 20:11
11 "Ye remember that I spake unto you,
and said that when the words of Isaiah
should be fulfilled—behold they are written,
ye have them before you, therefore search them-"

"HAVE BEEN AND SHALL BE"
********** Isaiah uses what are called types from the past to show the future.
What has happened before, will happen again.

ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ISAIAH PERTAIN TO US TODAY
All prophecies in Isaiah are prophecies of the last days.


Isaiah 44:7
7 "Who predicts what happens as do I, and is the equal of me in
appointing a people from of old as types, foretelling things to come?

Isaiah 46
10 I foretell the end from the beginning,
from ancient times things not yet done.
I speak, and my purposes take effect;
I accomplish all my will.


So, isn't it just a little more than just a coincidence,
that here - first we were put under condemnation for treating the Book of Mormon lightly,
and when we search the Book of Mormon we have the Lord giving us this commandment
to "search diligently" the words of Isaiah,
and when we do, and start to read Isaiah,
what do we find in the very 1st Chapter of the Book ?
We find that Isaiah begins his book with our apostasy.
Hmm - now that's interesting isn't it.


Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know; my people are insensible.

***
4 Alas, a nation astray, a people weighed down by sin, the offspring of wrongdoers, perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah, they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
, they have lapsed into APOSTASY.

From addressing his people personally as “Israel . . . my people” (v 3), Jehovah now addresses them impersonally as “a nation,” signifying their alienated state. Additionally, a regression occurs from his people’s simply going “astray” to their burdening themselves with “sin,” which, over time, ends in outright “wrongdoing.” That occurs collectively and generationally.
The “offspring of wrongdoers” turn into “perverse children,” meaning that the rising generation has by now become thoroughly corrupt. “Forsaking” Jehovah and “spurning” him finally become conscious and deliberate acts.

They have lapsed into apostasy. Hebrew nazoru ahor signifies that Jehovah’s people have become entirely “estranged” from him.
They have “gone backwards” to what they used to be before they became Jehovah’s covenant people, when they didn’t know their God. In effect, they have become godless again like the world’s heathen nations, but now more so because they have rejected the light they once had.
The apostasy into which they began to backslide a generation ago is now complete.
As a consequence, instead of enjoying the blessings of the covenant, they must suffer its curses."
Who is the vision in Isaiah 1 talking about?

It's not talking about the LDS church. Isaiah tells us exactly who it is about.

1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

LDS Watchman
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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by LDS Watchman »

SPIRIT wrote: December 4th, 2021, 7:48 am boy are you ever mixed up.
this alone - what you said - proves that.
The church is the house of Israel, not the Gentiles.
and what's so ridiculous - is that - in the hundreds of times that "Gentiles" are mentioned
in the Book of Mormon,
you still don't even know that the church - those that received the restored gospel -
are part of those Gentiles
and YOU - are one of them. lol.

but why waste the time - you\re not looking for the truth,
your job here in the forum - is to try to get members to still believe
in a church that has fallen into total apostasy. ( doesn't look like you're getting anywhere)
(the light of truth has a way of shining through darkness - lies and deception)

We all know Christ's gospel; you don't need the church for that,
but the church no longer has it, and no longer follows it.
Anyone with eyes and ears can see that. Just look at what they are doing, and what they have done over the years -
all the ties they have in Babylon and who they follow - and I'll give you a clue - It's NOT the Lord Jesus Christ -
as we can all plainly see.

---------------------------------------
as I said - but why waste the time.
Over the years - using scriptures - I've shown (100's of times) and proven without a shadow of a doubt
that we - the church are Gentiles.
By reading the scriptures, even the most simpleminded member can see and understand that.

you care more about leaders of the church and what they say, than you do in book of Mormon prophets
and even the words of Jesus Christ,
but you won't accept what they say when it doesn't fit the false narrative you are pushing.

The Doctrine and Covenants confirms that the church is identified with the Gentiles…
even Joseph Smith said

60 Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee,
concerning the revelations and commandments which thou
hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles
- Joseph Smith
(D&C 109:60)


and elder McConkie
A Latter-day LDS Leader has stated
We are those Gentiles of whom Nephi speaks. We have received in this age of restoration the fulness of the everlasting gospel. It is now beginning to go from us to the Lamanites and to the Jews. But the great day of the Lamanites and the great day of the Jews both lie ahead…” (McConkie, Millennial Messiah, p 238)


"The LDS people have a tendency, when reading the BOM,
to look at those things spoken of regarding the “Gentiles” in two ways.
One is that all of those things that are of a flattering nature are attributable to the LDS people
and that those things which are of a negative nature and perceived as a call to repentance
are meant for those other people who are the evil “Gentiles”, whoever they are."


***** this scripture alone proves that. -
(there are so may others - that prove we are the Gentiles spoken of in the Book of Mormon)
But I'm not going to waste my time anymore - for members that aren't looking for truth
and don't even accept the scriptures for what they say, and are totally brainwashed by the church.

*****
1 Nephi 15
13 And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches
through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles,
and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed— ***


17 And this is what our father meaneth; and he meaneth that it will not come to pass until after they are scattered by the Gentiles; and he meaneth that it shall come by way of the Gentiles, that the Lord may show his power unto the Gentiles, for the very cause that he shall be rejected of the Jews, or of the house of Israel.

***

"According to Nephi, the Gentiles will take the gospel to the House of Israel.
Israel's salvation comes "by way of the Gentiles"
"In Nephi's terms, those who take the gospel to Lehi's descendants he calls "Gentiles"
Obviously, THESE GENTILES CAN ONLY BE LATTER-DAY SAINTS !;
other Gentiles have not accepted the restored gospel of Jesus Christ."
This is double speak Spirit.

First you say that the LDS are the Gentiles who reject the fulness of the gospel and that they never received it.

Now you say that the LDS are Gentiles because they received and accepted the fulness of the gospel.

And if Israel's salvation comes by why of the Gentiles in the last days, and those Gentiles are the LDS, then the LDS aren't in apostasy are they?
Last edited by LDS Watchman on December 4th, 2021, 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LDS Watchman
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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by LDS Watchman »

SPIRIT wrote: December 4th, 2021, 7:54 am These are some comments (below) that I've gathered over the years about the LDS being Gentiles

"If the LDS are not Gentiles, can you please tell me who the Gentiles are?
I would like know because they are the subject of many prophecies in the BOM
Including this one in the title page:

"Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God."

"Are there some nonmember, non believing people who have not been baptized that bring forth the BOM?
Please identify who they are. If you can do this you may be able to convince me you are right."

Whoever these Gentiles are they also spread the true gospel to the seed of Lehi:

Mormon 5: 15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.

It also seems these wonderful Gentiles have care ( stewardship) for the House of Israel:

Mormon 5: 10 And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come.

"I do think that is true that a repentant Gentile can be adopted in and receive the same covenant blessings but they still can be identified as Gentiles, just as one can immigrate from Mexico, be adopted as American and receive all the benefits of American citizenship and be an American citizen but still be identified as Mexican.
I think the allegory in Jacob 5 describes the Gentiles as the wild branch vs the natural branch.
But as I said if you can identify who they are...

So see if you can tell me who they are and why it is not the LDS that bring forth the BOM,
spread the gospel of Christ or have care for the House of Israel."

-------------
3 Nephi 23:4

4 "Therefore give heed to my words; write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."
(The Book of Mormon)

Christ also used the name “Gentile” to identify those through whom the gospel would go to the Lamanites. (3 Nephi 21:2–4)
If Church members from Gentile nations will bear in mind that the term “Gentile” when used in the Book of Mormon includes them, the prophecies therein will have much greater meaning and be more disturbing.

3 Nephi 21:

5 Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;

6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;

22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts,
I will establish my church among them, (our church today) and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;
------------------------------------------------------------
Who are the Gentiles spoken of in the Book of Mormon?

The Book of Mormon (BOM) was written for the benefit of all of those living in the latter-days of the worlds existence prior to the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The BOM Prophets, much like the Prophets of the Old and New Testaments saw our day in vision. What they saw pertained primarily to “This Land”, meaning the land upon which the events of the BOM took place (The American Continent) but the implications of what was prophesied to take place pertains to everyone world wide. Those Prophets saw “this land”, peopled by an indigenous race of people differentiated by their skin color from the predominately white settlers who would come to this land and subjugate this indigenous people.
They refer to these indigenous people as Lamanites.
The BOM Prophets refer to the “white settlers” as Gentiles and they also prophesied to a separate group of people, the Jews.

The LDS people have a tendency, when reading the BOM, to look at those things spoken of regarding the “Gentiles” in two ways.
One is that all of those things that are of a flattering nature are attributable to the LDS people and that those things which are of a negative nature and perceived as a call to repentance are meant for those other people who are the evil “Gentiles”, whoever they are.

The BOM was written to three groups: Lamanites – a remnant of the house of Israel, Jews, and Gentiles.
By a simple process of elimination, we can see that the LDS church falls largely into the category of the Gentiles.
In fact, as it states on the title page, the Book of Mormon was ‘to come forth… by way of the Gentile, in spite of the fact that we are also of Ephraim.

From the Book of Mormon Title page: “Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile…Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile— “

BOM Prophets provide further clarification…1Nephi 15:13 And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, … then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed—

3 Nephi 16: 6-7 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father. Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.

Additionally, the Doctrine and Covenants confirms that the church is identified with the Gentiles…D&C 109:60
Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles.

A Latter-day LDS Leader has stated “We are those Gentiles of whom Nephi speaks. We have received in this age of restoration the fulness of the everlasting gospel. It is now beginning to go from us to the Lamanites and to the Jews. But the great day of the Lamanites and the great day of the Jews both lie ahead…” (McConkie, Millennial Messiah, p 238)

If we are to accept the blessings pronounced to the “Gentiles” in the Book of Mormon, should we not seriously consider the warnings to the “Gentiles” that are pronounced throughout the Book of Mormon? The following is Jesus Christ speaking to the Latter-day Gentiles…

3 Nephi 16:10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

Notice that the Lord says not IF but WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel.
Additionally, He says that He will bring the fullness of His gospel from among them.


3 Nephi 21

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

Our only hope is to be numbered with The House of Israel - the Lord's covenant people.
and THAT will ONLY come after we perform our saving mission toward them.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=53789&p=998294#p998294
" The Lord has ordained no salvation or plan of salvation outside of the covenant with His people Israel"

and as I've said before -

"The repentant Gentiles are numbered with The House of Israel ONLY after they
perform their saving mission toward them.
The claim that Latter-Day Saints are of the House of Israel, descending through the mingled lineage of Ephraim, though true, is thus provisional.
Whether Latter-Day Saints are of the House of Israel ultimately depends on whether they fulfill their prophetic mission"

Avraham Gileadi
"As we learn how the scriptures define Gentiles, we also understand what they teach about the role of Latter-day Saints.
The popular notion of Gentiles as non-Mormons appears inadequate when we come to realize the message of The Book of Mormon."

"So long as we think of ourselves as the "good guys" in whatever scriptural scenario we are studying, for example, we will learn very little from the scriptures.
We will not be able to apply their historical lessons to ourselves.
Most important, we will end up with only a hypothetical role or mission to fulfill, one lacking a correct idea of self-identity and purpose.
The scriptures speak of The House of Israel as well as the Gentiles in terms of both good and evil. At the root of the question of identities, therefore, is not who is good and who is bad, but rather what mission God asks us to fulfill."

(please read this)
Avraham Gileadi
"Serving as Kings and Queens of the Gentiles"
http://www.josephandjudah.com/2016/05/s ... tiles.html

this is just a small part taken from his talk.

"There comes a time in life when you have to take stock and ask yourself whether you are, in fact, doing what you came to do in this world. We read scriptures that speak of heroes and heroines who valiantly served God and accomplished miracles that saved much of humanity. Maybe they didn't do so at first, but when they awoke to a sense of who they were, they set about serving God to their utmost without the need to look back. We too seldom come to an awakening of who we are all at once because we often don't see ourselves as anyone special, and because heaven withholds its gifts from us until we finally conform our lives to God's will. But because we have implanted in us his divine gene, we are no less capable of being recreated into something like a god-magnificent and powerful-able to transform the world as did those illustrious forebears.
Thus it is with the end-time kings and queens of the Gentiles whom Isaiah predicts are to restore the house of Israel:

"I will lift up my hand to the Gentiles, raise my ensign to the peoples, and they will bring your sons in their bosoms and carry your daughters on their shoulders. Kings will be your foster fathers and queens your nursing mothers" (Isaiah 49:22-23). It is as if this passage from Isaiah acts as a lifeline that Book of Mormon prophets hold on to, knowing that God made provision from the beginning for those end-time Gentile kings and queens to save their descendants from their lost and fallen and scattered state.
For that reason, Book of Mormon prophets refer back to this passage again and again, as if to inspire those same kings and queens of the Gentiles who read the Book of Mormon to wake up and perform their saving role to the house of Israel. That role, however, has little to do with non-Israelites but everything to do with Israel's birthright tribe of Ephraim whose ancestors assimilated into the Gentiles and became "identified with the Gentiles" (Doctrine & Covenants 109:60).

* (list of things members have done, and continue to do )
"Let us additionally assume that we aren't among those same Gentiles "in Zion" (2 Nephi 28:21, 24, 32) who "are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:14)-those who don't search the scriptures and repent of their error (cf. Jacob 7:23; Alma 14:1; 17:2 33:2; 3 Nephi 10:14) but who are "at ease in Zion" and assume "all is well" (2 Nephi 28:24-25). That we aren't among those who "hearken unto the precepts of men," who disallow "the power of God" in their lives and void "the gift of the Holy Ghost" (2 Nephi 28:26)-those who say, "We have received, and we need no more" (2 Nephi 28:27, 29), who get "angry" when confronted with "the truth of God" found in the scriptures when it conflicts with their "precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:28, 31). That we aren't among those who end up denying the Lord God when his "arm"-his servant in the Book of Isaiah-"is lengthened out all the day long" (2 Nephi 28:32)."
What did Jesus say about putting our trust in the interpretations of the learned scribes like Avraham Gileadi?

Neophyte
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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by Neophyte »

Will continue to read the thread, just on a break right now at work and feel the need to get some anxiety off my chest. I feel so guilty for how much time I wasted in my time away. I don’t believe I committed any mortal sins, and I never badmouthed or attacked the Church in any way, but I broke the Word of Wisdom and Law of Chastity, I didn’t live right and I’m deeply ashamed of myself. At one point during my time away, a very close gentile friend of mine died, the same age as me. I’m still fairly young, not even 30 yet, but I have this appreciation for how sudden death can be, and a terror of dying without fulfilling my ordinances and doing everything Heavenly Father has commanded, and if I hadn’t trusted in my own understanding and wandered off into the world alone I’d be totally spiritually secure. I guess part of me is glad I’ve seen how bad the world can be, and I have no desire to return to it, and it’s increased my humility 1,000 times, that I won’t ever be tempted to leave again, but it’s still a source of anxiety and shame to me. I’m truly trying to be better. I’ve quit coffee and tea cold turkey, policing myself on swear words etc. I really desperately want to be good. I just had to get that off my chest.

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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Neophyte wrote: December 4th, 2021, 2:14 pm I’ve quit coffee and tea cold turkey, policing myself on swear words etc.
Everything after about 1834 is things done under condemnation. Not sure when Hyrum gave coffee and tea as examples of beverages consumed too hot, but hot indeed does means high temperature.

Patriarchal blessing do continue to hold merit, in at least some instances, even though the church patriarch was deposed many years ago.

LDS Watchman
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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by LDS Watchman »

Neophyte wrote: December 4th, 2021, 2:14 pm Will continue to read the thread, just on a break right now at work and feel the need to get some anxiety off my chest. I feel so guilty for how much time I wasted in my time away. I don’t believe I committed any mortal sins, and I never badmouthed or attacked the Church in any way, but I broke the Word of Wisdom and Law of Chastity, I didn’t live right and I’m deeply ashamed of myself. At one point during my time away, a very close gentile friend of mine died, the same age as me. I’m still fairly young, not even 30 yet, but I have this appreciation for how sudden death can be, and a terror of dying without fulfilling my ordinances and doing everything Heavenly Father has commanded, and if I hadn’t trusted in my own understanding and wandered off into the world alone I’d be totally spiritually secure. I guess part of me is glad I’ve seen how bad the world can be, and I have no desire to return to it, and it’s increased my humility 1,000 times, that I won’t ever be tempted to leave again, but it’s still a source of anxiety and shame to me. I’m truly trying to be better. I’ve quit coffee and tea cold turkey, policing myself on swear words etc. I really desperately want to be good. I just had to get that off my chest.
Remember the story of Alma the Younger and the sons of Mosiah or the Prodigal Son. If you feel guilt, then you still need to repent and come unto Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Return to your first love and you will be forgiven. And once you have been forgive, God will remember your sins no more as long as you don't return to them again.

Neophyte
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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by Neophyte »

Atticus wrote: December 4th, 2021, 5:22 pm
Neophyte wrote: December 4th, 2021, 2:14 pm Will continue to read the thread, just on a break right now at work and feel the need to get some anxiety off my chest. I feel so guilty for how much time I wasted in my time away. I don’t believe I committed any mortal sins, and I never badmouthed or attacked the Church in any way, but I broke the Word of Wisdom and Law of Chastity, I didn’t live right and I’m deeply ashamed of myself. At one point during my time away, a very close gentile friend of mine died, the same age as me. I’m still fairly young, not even 30 yet, but I have this appreciation for how sudden death can be, and a terror of dying without fulfilling my ordinances and doing everything Heavenly Father has commanded, and if I hadn’t trusted in my own understanding and wandered off into the world alone I’d be totally spiritually secure. I guess part of me is glad I’ve seen how bad the world can be, and I have no desire to return to it, and it’s increased my humility 1,000 times, that I won’t ever be tempted to leave again, but it’s still a source of anxiety and shame to me. I’m truly trying to be better. I’ve quit coffee and tea cold turkey, policing myself on swear words etc. I really desperately want to be good. I just had to get that off my chest.
Remember the story of Alma the Younger and the sons of Mosiah or the Prodigal Son. If you feel guilt, then you still need to repent and come unto Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Return to your first love and you will be forgiven. And once you have been forgive, God will remember your sins no more as long as you don't return to them again.
Thank you, Atticus. That does make me feel better, I suppose I just had to vocalize it. I’ve fully accepted the Gospel into my heart and listened to the audiobook of the Pearl of Great Price today during my commute and I’m so glad I rediscovered this. It speaks to me on a deep level, and now I’m eating dinner and reading one of Ogden Kraut’s writings.

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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by LDS Watchman »

Neophyte wrote: December 4th, 2021, 5:54 pm
Atticus wrote: December 4th, 2021, 5:22 pm
Neophyte wrote: December 4th, 2021, 2:14 pm Will continue to read the thread, just on a break right now at work and feel the need to get some anxiety off my chest. I feel so guilty for how much time I wasted in my time away. I don’t believe I committed any mortal sins, and I never badmouthed or attacked the Church in any way, but I broke the Word of Wisdom and Law of Chastity, I didn’t live right and I’m deeply ashamed of myself. At one point during my time away, a very close gentile friend of mine died, the same age as me. I’m still fairly young, not even 30 yet, but I have this appreciation for how sudden death can be, and a terror of dying without fulfilling my ordinances and doing everything Heavenly Father has commanded, and if I hadn’t trusted in my own understanding and wandered off into the world alone I’d be totally spiritually secure. I guess part of me is glad I’ve seen how bad the world can be, and I have no desire to return to it, and it’s increased my humility 1,000 times, that I won’t ever be tempted to leave again, but it’s still a source of anxiety and shame to me. I’m truly trying to be better. I’ve quit coffee and tea cold turkey, policing myself on swear words etc. I really desperately want to be good. I just had to get that off my chest.
Remember the story of Alma the Younger and the sons of Mosiah or the Prodigal Son. If you feel guilt, then you still need to repent and come unto Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Return to your first love and you will be forgiven. And once you have been forgive, God will remember your sins no more as long as you don't return to them again.
Thank you, Atticus. That does make me feel better, I suppose I just had to vocalize it. I’ve fully accepted the Gospel into my heart and listened to the audiobook of the Pearl of Great Price today during my commute and I’m so glad I rediscovered this. It speaks to me on a deep level, and now I’m eating dinner and reading one of Ogden Kraut’s writings.
Glad to be of help.

I love the Pearl of Great Price, too. There are some incredible truths to be found there.

As for Ogden Kraut, I highly recommend avoiding his writings, at least for the time being. I've read several of his books, and while they are informative, they are also extremely biased towards fundamentalism and there are many errors and logical fallacies contained in them because of this. I recommend feasting on the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith, without having them filtered through the fundamentalist lens of Ogden Kraut. Let the Holy Spirit guide, not Ogden Kraut or any other man, especially those who have been excommunicated or left the Lord's church on their own.

Neophyte
captain of 10
Posts: 17

Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by Neophyte »

Atticus wrote: December 4th, 2021, 6:04 pm
Neophyte wrote: December 4th, 2021, 5:54 pm
Atticus wrote: December 4th, 2021, 5:22 pm
Neophyte wrote: December 4th, 2021, 2:14 pm Will continue to read the thread, just on a break right now at work and feel the need to get some anxiety off my chest. I feel so guilty for how much time I wasted in my time away. I don’t believe I committed any mortal sins, and I never badmouthed or attacked the Church in any way, but I broke the Word of Wisdom and Law of Chastity, I didn’t live right and I’m deeply ashamed of myself. At one point during my time away, a very close gentile friend of mine died, the same age as me. I’m still fairly young, not even 30 yet, but I have this appreciation for how sudden death can be, and a terror of dying without fulfilling my ordinances and doing everything Heavenly Father has commanded, and if I hadn’t trusted in my own understanding and wandered off into the world alone I’d be totally spiritually secure. I guess part of me is glad I’ve seen how bad the world can be, and I have no desire to return to it, and it’s increased my humility 1,000 times, that I won’t ever be tempted to leave again, but it’s still a source of anxiety and shame to me. I’m truly trying to be better. I’ve quit coffee and tea cold turkey, policing myself on swear words etc. I really desperately want to be good. I just had to get that off my chest.
Remember the story of Alma the Younger and the sons of Mosiah or the Prodigal Son. If you feel guilt, then you still need to repent and come unto Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Return to your first love and you will be forgiven. And once you have been forgive, God will remember your sins no more as long as you don't return to them again.
Thank you, Atticus. That does make me feel better, I suppose I just had to vocalize it. I’ve fully accepted the Gospel into my heart and listened to the audiobook of the Pearl of Great Price today during my commute and I’m so glad I rediscovered this. It speaks to me on a deep level, and now I’m eating dinner and reading one of Ogden Kraut’s writings.
Glad to be of help.

I love the Pearl of Great Price, too. There are some incredible truths to be found there.

As for Ogden Kraut, I highly recommend avoiding his writings, at least for the time being. I've read several of his books, and while they are informative, they are also extremely biased towards fundamentalism and there are many errors and logical fallacies contained in them because of this. I recommend feasting on the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith, without having them filtered through the fundamentalist lens of Ogden Kraut. Let the Holy Spirit guide, not Ogden Kraut or any other man, especially those who have been excommunicated or left the Lord's church on their own.
Oh, thank you for the forewarning. I’m just reading his essay on the idea of Adam-God, as I recall being fascinated by it when I first came into the Church, but seeing as I am rediscovering a lot, I won’t take too much to heart until I’ve been longer in the community and in person in church.
Last edited by Neophyte on December 4th, 2021, 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SPIRIT
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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by SPIRIT »

Atticus wrote: December 4th, 2021, 12:13 pm
SPIRIT wrote: December 4th, 2021, 7:54 am These are some comments (below) that I've gathered over the years about the LDS being Gentiles

"If the LDS are not Gentiles, can you please tell me who the Gentiles are?
I would like know because they are the subject of many prophecies in the BOM
Including this one in the title page:

"Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God."

"Are there some nonmember, non believing people who have not been baptized that bring forth the BOM?
Please identify who they are. If you can do this you may be able to convince me you are right."

Whoever these Gentiles are they also spread the true gospel to the seed of Lehi:

Mormon 5: 15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.

It also seems these wonderful Gentiles have care ( stewardship) for the House of Israel:

Mormon 5: 10 And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come.

"I do think that is true that a repentant Gentile can be adopted in and receive the same covenant blessings but they still can be identified as Gentiles, just as one can immigrate from Mexico, be adopted as American and receive all the benefits of American citizenship and be an American citizen but still be identified as Mexican.
I think the allegory in Jacob 5 describes the Gentiles as the wild branch vs the natural branch.
But as I said if you can identify who they are...

So see if you can tell me who they are and why it is not the LDS that bring forth the BOM,
spread the gospel of Christ or have care for the House of Israel."

-------------
3 Nephi 23:4

4 "Therefore give heed to my words; write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."
(The Book of Mormon)

Christ also used the name “Gentile” to identify those through whom the gospel would go to the Lamanites. (3 Nephi 21:2–4)
If Church members from Gentile nations will bear in mind that the term “Gentile” when used in the Book of Mormon includes them, the prophecies therein will have much greater meaning and be more disturbing.

3 Nephi 21:

5 Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;

6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;

22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts,
I will establish my church among them, (our church today) and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;
------------------------------------------------------------
Who are the Gentiles spoken of in the Book of Mormon?

The Book of Mormon (BOM) was written for the benefit of all of those living in the latter-days of the worlds existence prior to the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The BOM Prophets, much like the Prophets of the Old and New Testaments saw our day in vision. What they saw pertained primarily to “This Land”, meaning the land upon which the events of the BOM took place (The American Continent) but the implications of what was prophesied to take place pertains to everyone world wide. Those Prophets saw “this land”, peopled by an indigenous race of people differentiated by their skin color from the predominately white settlers who would come to this land and subjugate this indigenous people.
They refer to these indigenous people as Lamanites.
The BOM Prophets refer to the “white settlers” as Gentiles and they also prophesied to a separate group of people, the Jews.

The LDS people have a tendency, when reading the BOM, to look at those things spoken of regarding the “Gentiles” in two ways.
One is that all of those things that are of a flattering nature are attributable to the LDS people and that those things which are of a negative nature and perceived as a call to repentance are meant for those other people who are the evil “Gentiles”, whoever they are.

The BOM was written to three groups: Lamanites – a remnant of the house of Israel, Jews, and Gentiles.
By a simple process of elimination, we can see that the LDS church falls largely into the category of the Gentiles.
In fact, as it states on the title page, the Book of Mormon was ‘to come forth… by way of the Gentile, in spite of the fact that we are also of Ephraim.

From the Book of Mormon Title page: “Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile…Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile— “

BOM Prophets provide further clarification…1Nephi 15:13 And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, … then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed—

3 Nephi 16: 6-7 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father. Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.

Additionally, the Doctrine and Covenants confirms that the church is identified with the Gentiles…D&C 109:60
Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles.

A Latter-day LDS Leader has stated “We are those Gentiles of whom Nephi speaks. We have received in this age of restoration the fulness of the everlasting gospel. It is now beginning to go from us to the Lamanites and to the Jews. But the great day of the Lamanites and the great day of the Jews both lie ahead…” (McConkie, Millennial Messiah, p 238)

If we are to accept the blessings pronounced to the “Gentiles” in the Book of Mormon, should we not seriously consider the warnings to the “Gentiles” that are pronounced throughout the Book of Mormon? The following is Jesus Christ speaking to the Latter-day Gentiles…

3 Nephi 16:10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

Notice that the Lord says not IF but WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel.
Additionally, He says that He will bring the fullness of His gospel from among them.


3 Nephi 21

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

Our only hope is to be numbered with The House of Israel - the Lord's covenant people.
and THAT will ONLY come after we perform our saving mission toward them.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=53789&p=998294#p998294
" The Lord has ordained no salvation or plan of salvation outside of the covenant with His people Israel"

and as I've said before -

"The repentant Gentiles are numbered with The House of Israel ONLY after they
perform their saving mission toward them.
The claim that Latter-Day Saints are of the House of Israel, descending through the mingled lineage of Ephraim, though true, is thus provisional.
Whether Latter-Day Saints are of the House of Israel ultimately depends on whether they fulfill their prophetic mission"

Avraham Gileadi
"As we learn how the scriptures define Gentiles, we also understand what they teach about the role of Latter-day Saints.
The popular notion of Gentiles as non-Mormons appears inadequate when we come to realize the message of The Book of Mormon."

"So long as we think of ourselves as the "good guys" in whatever scriptural scenario we are studying, for example, we will learn very little from the scriptures.
We will not be able to apply their historical lessons to ourselves.
Most important, we will end up with only a hypothetical role or mission to fulfill, one lacking a correct idea of self-identity and purpose.
The scriptures speak of The House of Israel as well as the Gentiles in terms of both good and evil. At the root of the question of identities, therefore, is not who is good and who is bad, but rather what mission God asks us to fulfill."

(please read this)
Avraham Gileadi
"Serving as Kings and Queens of the Gentiles"
http://www.josephandjudah.com/2016/05/s ... tiles.html

this is just a small part taken from his talk.

"There comes a time in life when you have to take stock and ask yourself whether you are, in fact, doing what you came to do in this world. We read scriptures that speak of heroes and heroines who valiantly served God and accomplished miracles that saved much of humanity. Maybe they didn't do so at first, but when they awoke to a sense of who they were, they set about serving God to their utmost without the need to look back. We too seldom come to an awakening of who we are all at once because we often don't see ourselves as anyone special, and because heaven withholds its gifts from us until we finally conform our lives to God's will. But because we have implanted in us his divine gene, we are no less capable of being recreated into something like a god-magnificent and powerful-able to transform the world as did those illustrious forebears.
Thus it is with the end-time kings and queens of the Gentiles whom Isaiah predicts are to restore the house of Israel:

"I will lift up my hand to the Gentiles, raise my ensign to the peoples, and they will bring your sons in their bosoms and carry your daughters on their shoulders. Kings will be your foster fathers and queens your nursing mothers" (Isaiah 49:22-23). It is as if this passage from Isaiah acts as a lifeline that Book of Mormon prophets hold on to, knowing that God made provision from the beginning for those end-time Gentile kings and queens to save their descendants from their lost and fallen and scattered state.
For that reason, Book of Mormon prophets refer back to this passage again and again, as if to inspire those same kings and queens of the Gentiles who read the Book of Mormon to wake up and perform their saving role to the house of Israel. That role, however, has little to do with non-Israelites but everything to do with Israel's birthright tribe of Ephraim whose ancestors assimilated into the Gentiles and became "identified with the Gentiles" (Doctrine & Covenants 109:60).

* (list of things members have done, and continue to do )
"Let us additionally assume that we aren't among those same Gentiles "in Zion" (2 Nephi 28:21, 24, 32) who "are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:14)-those who don't search the scriptures and repent of their error (cf. Jacob 7:23; Alma 14:1; 17:2 33:2; 3 Nephi 10:14) but who are "at ease in Zion" and assume "all is well" (2 Nephi 28:24-25). That we aren't among those who "hearken unto the precepts of men," who disallow "the power of God" in their lives and void "the gift of the Holy Ghost" (2 Nephi 28:26)-those who say, "We have received, and we need no more" (2 Nephi 28:27, 29), who get "angry" when confronted with "the truth of God" found in the scriptures when it conflicts with their "precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:28, 31). That we aren't among those who end up denying the Lord God when his "arm"-his servant in the Book of Isaiah-"is lengthened out all the day long" (2 Nephi 28:32)."
What did Jesus say about putting our trust in the interpretations of the learned scribes like Avraham Gileadi?
really tired of repeating myself.
I think I'm through wasting my time with those that could care less about the truth
and don't even read or address what others say.
So I write this for others, and not you.

And I think you should be asking your church leaders - your question about Gileadi - and not me,
because they are " putting their trust in the interpretations of the learned scribes like Avraham Gileadi". lol.
*****
as I've had to repeat myself - several times.

because some, just do not want to accept it,
and are just totally hopeless - and a waste of time.

"I put my trust in the Lord - and HIS WORDS;*
(and not in men -(church leaders)and theirs - and their precepts.)
(men who have corrupted the Lords' church - and have led it into APOSTASY Isa. 1:4)
* and in a prophet that the Lord said his words were GREAT !
And unlike many other members in this thread - I try to keep the commandment the Lord gave
to search diligently the words of Isaiah - for GREAT ARE THE WORDS OF ISAIAH !

***** In the words of Jesus Christ
3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."


repeating the same things to you - as usual.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=63671&p=1202128&hi ... 1#p1202128


*****
If Gileadi's interpretations are so flawed,
*** isn't it interesting why the church would employ him and depend on him
for translating and understanding Isaiah -
because they do not. lol. (****** the "spirit of prophecy" (at bottom)
showing they are really false prophets.
"Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel,
and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you,
nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy "
(2 Nephi 25:4) in part
which Nelson does not have - the "spirit of prophecy"
showing he is really a false prophet
because he doesn't understand Isaiah - and depends on scholars - LIKE GILEADI.
****** the "spirit of prophecy" (at bottom)



"Avraham Gileadi (born 1940) is a religious historian and former university professor.
A Latter-day Saint Hebrew scholar and literary analyst, Gileadi specializes in the Book of Isaiah. "

"Renowned Hebrew scholar and literary analyst Avraham Gileadi presents an informed and enlightening
interpretation of the most important prophecy in the Bible.
He shows how the writing of the prophet Isaiah, though grounded in the history of the ancient Near East,
make use of literary devices to predict the end of the world."



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avraham_Gileadi
Avraham Gileadi - Wikipedia

*** Avraham Gileadi (born October 24, 1940) is a Dutch-born American scholar and professor
specializing in the Hebrew language and analysis of Book of Isaiah.
A longtime professor at Brigham Young University,

* Gileadi was hired by BYU to produce footnotes clarifying translation problems in the Hebrew prophets for the LDS edition of the Bible, and he revised the Hebrew translation of the Book of Mormon for the Church's Translation Division. In 1981 he completed Ph.D. in Ancient Studies from Brigham Young University, under the supervision of Hugh Nibley, with a dissertation entitled "A Bifid Division of the Book of Isaiah."


* Gileadi received academic degrees from Brigham Young University: a B.A. in University Studies (1975), a M.A. in Ancient Scripture (1977), and a Ph.D. in Ancient Studies (1981) with Hugh Nibley as chair.[4] During his academic years, Gileadi taught Hebrew, Religion courses, and an Honors Philosophy class in the literary analysis of the Book of Isaiah. He also sought out and studied with Professor R. K. Harrison, a renowned Old Testament scholar of Wycliffe College, University of Toronto, Canada, who was noted for his conservative theological position.


******

"the spirit of prophecy"

quote

"As we watch General Conference we should look for the spirit of prophecy."
not just listen to nice talks

If Jesus himself has said -

3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

Why does our prophet and church leaders never talk about Isaiah or quote him ?
Could it be that they don't understand him ? and if they don't understand him, do they really have the spirit of prophecy ?

"Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel,
and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you,
nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy
"
(2 Nephi 25:4) in part

"The scriptures warn us that in the last days there will be prophets who do not prophesy and seers who do not see (Isaiah 30:10). Jesus also warned that there would be false prophets and an abundance of men teaching their own precepts to get gain, so that even the very elect will be deceived (2 Nephi 26:29; JS Matthew 1:22).

As Latter-day Saints we must learn what a true prophet is
and we must learn to discern between true and false prophets lest we also be deceived.


The scriptures provide a standard by which we can all judge.
Simply put, a prophet must have the spirit of prophecy in order to be a true prophet. This is the sign.

As we watch General Conference we should look for the spirit of prophecy.
We should measure carefully what is being said. We should pray that those who we sustain as prophets will prophesy and speak prophetically because when prophets and seers, prophesy and see, they become a great benefit to their fellow man (Mosiah 8:18). This is the means whereby we can receive salvation.
If men who are called prophets do not have the spirit of prophecy we can know they are false prophets.
Nephi gives us an important bar by which we can measure:


"Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel,
and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you,
nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy
"
(2 Nephi 25:4)

All prophets will understand the words of Isaiah.
They will also share the testimony of the Savior and of Nephi and others that the words of Isaiah are great!


When’s the last time you heard an LDS prophet give a talk on the words of Isaiah in General Conference?
When Jesus came to the Nephites, He gave them the “commandment to search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.”
Do the servants of the Lord today emphasize this same commandment?


Today’s prophets write books such as: Counseling With Our Councils,
The Christmas Train, A Future As Bright As Your Faith, To The Rescue, Forget Me Not, and 21 Principles.

The above may be excellent topics,
but why do today’s LDS prophets not speak or write of Isaiah?
Why do they not rejoice in his words?
Why do they not explain what his words mean?
If these words are so great and so relevant to us in our day, why are the so called prophets
not using their “spirit of prophecy” in a way that would render Isaiah’s vital words easier to understand?

Is it possible that these prophets do not understand the words of Isaiah?
If so, can they be true prophets?
Jesus said “ALL who have the spirit of prophecy” will easily understand Isaiah’s words.
They will comprehend them in plainness.

If these prophets rely upon trained scholars to understand Isaiah,
would this be evidence that such men are not true prophets?
I leave that for you to judge."

end quote

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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by LDS Watchman »

Neophyte wrote: December 4th, 2021, 6:16 pm
Atticus wrote: December 4th, 2021, 6:04 pm
Neophyte wrote: December 4th, 2021, 5:54 pm
Atticus wrote: December 4th, 2021, 5:22 pm

Remember the story of Alma the Younger and the sons of Mosiah or the Prodigal Son. If you feel guilt, then you still need to repent and come unto Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Return to your first love and you will be forgiven. And once you have been forgive, God will remember your sins no more as long as you don't return to them again.
Thank you, Atticus. That does make me feel better, I suppose I just had to vocalize it. I’ve fully accepted the Gospel into my heart and listened to the audiobook of the Pearl of Great Price today during my commute and I’m so glad I rediscovered this. It speaks to me on a deep level, and now I’m eating dinner and reading one of Ogden Kraut’s writings.
Glad to be of help.

I love the Pearl of Great Price, too. There are some incredible truths to be found there.

As for Ogden Kraut, I highly recommend avoiding his writings, at least for the time being. I've read several of his books, and while they are informative, they are also extremely biased towards fundamentalism and there are many errors and logical fallacies contained in them because of this. I recommend feasting on the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith, without having them filtered through the fundamentalist lens of Ogden Kraut. Let the Holy Spirit guide, not Ogden Kraut or any other man, especially those who have been excommunicated or left the Lord's church on their own.
Oh, thank you for the forewarning. I’m just reading his essay on the idea of Adam-God, as I recall being fascinated by it when I first came into the Church, but seeing as I am rediscovering a lot, I won’t take too much to heart until I’ve been longer in the community and in person in church.
His Michael/Adam book is definitely an interesting read. There's a lot of good information in that book.

There are a few major problems in my opinion, though. One is that he goes out of his way to try and put Brigham Young and the modern leaders at odds with each other, when this isn't nearly the issue he tries to make it out to be.

Another is that he doesn't really address any of the scriptures that shed light on the Adam-God teachings. There are multiple scriptures and statements by Joseph Smith that are problematic for the traditional fundamentalist spin on Adam-God.

There's a lot more to the Adam-God puzzle then what Ogden Kraut mentions, but you can still mine it for information, which you can then further investigate.

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Luke
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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by Luke »

Atticus wrote: December 4th, 2021, 9:33 pm There are a few major problems in my opinion, though. One is that he goes out of his way to try and put Brigham Young and the modern leaders at odds with each other, when this isn't nearly the issue he tries to make it out to be.
What? Of course it’s an issue. A huge issue. This is the identity of God Himself that we are dealing with here. If that isn’t big, then what is?

Brigham and co. taught that if you rejected it, you would be damned. McConkie and co. taught that if you believed it, you would be damned.

So yeah, pretty major problem. As you said to me around a year ago, it’s especially a major problem for those who believe that the Brethren can’t lead you astray, because whichever side you take - you must believe that one group was leading the Church astray. Remember, it’s the very identity of God that we are dealing with here.
Atticus wrote: December 4th, 2021, 9:33 pm There are multiple scriptures and statements by Joseph Smith that are problematic for the traditional fundamentalist spin on Adam-God.
Not if you understand that Joseph was under the burden of being unable to declare virtually anything other than milk since the people couldn’t handle it. According to his own statements. Anyone who has actually read what Joseph said as it relates to Adam-God (as I know that you have knows this.
Atticus wrote: December 4th, 2021, 9:33 pm There's a lot more to the Adam-God puzzle then what Ogden Kraut mentions, but you can still mine it for information, which you can then further investigate.
No, Ogden pretty much hits the nail squarely on the head here. Adam-God is a true doctrine that has been discarded and labelled a heresy by pretenders who say they are Joseph’s successors.

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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by LDS Watchman »

Luke wrote: December 4th, 2021, 9:40 pm
Atticus wrote: December 4th, 2021, 9:33 pm There are a few major problems in my opinion, though. One is that he goes out of his way to try and put Brigham Young and the modern leaders at odds with each other, when this isn't nearly the issue he tries to make it out to be.
What? Of course it’s an issue. A huge issue. This is the identity of God Himself that we are dealing with here. If that isn’t big, then what is?

Brigham and co. taught that if you rejected it, you would be damned. McConkie and co. taught that if you believed it, you would be damned.

So yeah, pretty major problem. As you said to me around a year ago, it’s especially a major problem for those who believe that the Brethren can’t lead you astray, because whichever side you take - you must believe that one group was leading the Church astray. Remember, it’s the very identity of God that we are dealing with here.
Atticus wrote: December 4th, 2021, 9:33 pm There are multiple scriptures and statements by Joseph Smith that are problematic for the traditional fundamentalist spin on Adam-God.
Not if you understand that Joseph was under the burden of being unable to declare virtually anything other than milk since the people couldn’t handle it. According to his own statements. Anyone who has actually read what Joseph said as it relates to Adam-God (as I know that you have knows this.
Atticus wrote: December 4th, 2021, 9:33 pm There's a lot more to the Adam-God puzzle then what Ogden Kraut mentions, but you can still mine it for information, which you can then further investigate.
No, Ogden pretty much hits the nail squarely on the head here. Adam-God is a true doctrine that has been discarded and labelled a heresy by pretenders who say they are Joseph’s successors.
For Fundamentalists like Kraut and yourself it's important to put Brigham and the presidents of the church who came after him at odds with each other, because your belief system requires that the church be in a state of severe apostasy. But it really doesn't have to be the big deal you make it out to be.

Yes, we are dealing with the very nature of God. But his true nature is largely mystery to mortal man, including to his saints and even his prophets.

The scriptures when taken as a whole do not support what Fundamentalists insist Brigham Young taught about Adam-God. Most of the statements by Joseph Smith about Adam/Michael and God also do not support it.

A few scriptures and a few statements by Joseph Smith here and there can be isolated and interpreted to support what Fundamentalists insist Brigham Young taught about Adam-God, but as I said, the majority cannot.

And this idea that Joseph just couldn't tell anyone doesn't explain this phenomenon. It's not as if Joseph Smith just dropped a few hints here and there about Adam-God and left it at that. He straight up contradicted what most Fundamentalists believe about Adam-God on numerous occasions, including just prior to his death. His revelations contradict it to.

No one forced him to say what he did. No one made him add the part about Adam being formed in the image of God the Father, the Father of Jesus Christ, in his King Follett sermon for example. There was no pressure to add this "falsehood" out of fear. It's much more plausible that he added that, because it is true.
There were individuals in early church history who saw God the Father and Jesus Christ without having been taught or believing that Adam is God the Father, and the father of Jesus Christ. So believing in any form of Adam-God clearly isn't a requirement for seeing the Father and the Son or being exalted, regardless of what exactly the truth about Adam-God is.

Now, let's address the issue of the discrepancy between what Brigham Young taught and what the church has taught since around 1900. What the church has taught about the nature of God since 1900 is completely consistent with the scriptures, while some of Brigham Young's statements and the statements of his contemporaries are not.

This is where Elder McConkie and President Kimball got the idea that Adam-God, as believed and taught by the Fundamentalists, is false doctrine. The scriptures were on their side.

Now, this doesn't mean that Brigham Young was off his rocker, either. In my opinion, Brigham Young took some veiled statements by Joseph Smith and then drew his own conclusions. I believe that there is truth in what he taught about Adam-God, but that the doctrine was never fully developed in a way that fits with the scriptures. There are clearly some major pieces missing from the Adam-God puzzle. I believe Brigham Young did his best to fill in some of those pieces, but the puzzle was never completed.

The church has tried to distance itself from the whole Adam-God teaching as much as possible and just sticks to what can be supported by the scriptures. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I also don't see anything seriously wrong with Brigham Young attempting to shed more light on the mysterious nature of God, even though his attempts proved to be a huge stumbling block for members of the church. There is clearly truth in what he taught, even if it was also mixed with some oversimplified or even erroneous ideas.

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Re: Hello, I'm happy to be here.

Post by LDS Watchman »

Luke wrote: November 30th, 2021, 10:45 pm
Atticus wrote: November 30th, 2021, 4:14 pm
Luke wrote: November 30th, 2021, 11:40 am
Atticus wrote: November 29th, 2021, 8:02 pm While the church may not be the gospel it is definitely the vehicle by which the fulness of the gospel is administered. If you turn your back on the Lord's church, then there goes your access to the fulness of the gospel.
A vehicle maybe, but not THE vehicle.

The Priesthood is above the Church, since it existed from the foundation of the world. The Aaronic Priesthood was first given before any institutional Church was founded.

Keeping your fixation on an earthly institution as the only place where salvation can be found (as you suppose) will prove a stumbling-block to you and many others. It is a false teaching. Do not believe it.
At present the church is THE vehicle for administering the fulness of the gospel. It is only within the church where the ordinances of salvation can legally be administered. Search the scriptures about the last days and the teachings of Joseph Smith. They both say that the fullness of the gospel is only administered within the Lord's church.

It's blatant false doctrine to teach that the fulness of the gospel is administered anywhere else at present.
Then in response I ask you to show me where it says that the LDS Church (especially in its present state) is the only vehicle by which the Gospel is administered.

Brigham Young said (as you well know) that if the Church gave the blacks the Priesthood, the Priesthood would be taken from them.
So today I was pondering on your argument that the Church lost the priesthood because they gave it to blacks. And it dawned on me that your belief system actually doesn't allow for this to happen, since you don't believe the church could ever give ANYONE the priesthood to begin with.

And since it's a fact that there were some blacks ordained to the priesthood during Joseph Smith's lifetime and that he approved of at least one such ordination, without losing the priesthood, Brigham Young's argument really doesn't hold up, even if the church made a mistake in ordaining blacks. It was also understood by both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young that the time would come when the curse would be lifted and blacks would receive the priesthood and all other blessings of the gospel.

So this argument that the church lost the priesthood because they ordained blacks doesn't hold up at all.

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