A Burnt Child

[ithink]

Greetings and Merry Christmas all.

It's been many years since I posted here. Brian has graciously handed me a pencil again. Let's hope it doesn't snap in half this time.

It's nice to see so many familiar names still floating around. I have poked my head in here at least every few months for the past few years. I can't believe Poker and the Art is still going and going and going! I have to confess though that I never liked that thread, it made no sense to me. Perhaps that is just because a long time member of the church I knew a long time ago wasn't my favorite guy -- and his name just happened to be Conrad. It's hard to shake the bias sometimes I think.

But I'm rambling already.

To the point. Over a decade ago I set out to deal with many of the discrepancies in the Church, of which I am still counted as a "member" although I don't count that as anything of any meaning anymore so far as being a "member" in and of itself. What happened was a quest spanning several years of research in addition to what I already knew in an attempt to dispel the darkness and shed some light on the reality of my life, and my and my families' life in the church. What has come of this is a book which you can overview at jasondraper.me.

I have hesitated to publish this book (for 5 years now) for reasons that I can't really define except that I didn't want to hurt my adopted LDS family (literally), even after they shunned me and my family after we ceased attendance around 10 years ago. I also didn't want to hurt anyone else with what I have learned. That is not why wrote the book, and it's not why I'm clicking the keyboard right now. In fact, if what I have laid out might help someone, then my reasons for finally publishing will be realized. Unfortunately it is clear to anyone with eyes, which means most members of this forum -- that is likely why you are here -- that the damage being done and the level of pain that is being inflicted on the trusted masses both in and out of the Church is rising to the point of unbelief. Seeing this, I finally decided to let this loose. God knows it might be needed right now.

Again, nice to have a voice again.

Love and Hate of
Lies and Truth

It is my hope that in another decade I might be writing another book with those words moved around a bit.

- ithink

[Luke]

The LDS Church aside, what is your take on Mormonism in general? Because LDS Mormonism is by no means the only form.

[EmmaLee]

Welcome back, ithink! It's good to hear from you again.

[ithink]

The LDS Church aside, what is your take on Mormonism in general? Because LDS Mormonism is by no means the only form.

Not sure what you are referring to.

[Niemand]

The LDS Church aside, what is your take on Mormonism in general? Because LDS Mormonism is by no means the only form.

Not sure what you are referring to.

Luke is an independent, and I think a lot of us are heading that way in some form or another. Personally I can see myself ending up with Protestant dissidents. iIf you read this forum (you probably have), there is a lot of dissent about the injections and mandates which church leadership are pushing. There are other issues, of course, but that's the big one just now.

[Luke]

The LDS Church aside, what is your take on Mormonism in general? Because LDS Mormonism is by no means the only form.

Not sure what you are referring to.

This to me seems to be the problem with those who go down the route of “anti-Mormonism”. They are unable to separate the LDS Church (an institution) from Mormonism (a set of ideas, which change depending on person to person).

In other words, Mormonism is much more then the LDS Church. There are those who fall into the camp that the Book of Mormon is true, but that Joseph was a fallen prophet. There are those who fall into the “Reorganisation” camp and among other things, believe that polygamy was wrong. There are Fundamentalists, like myself (and I not belong to any of the groups). There are people who believe in men like Denver Snuffer.

My point is that some people believe that if the modern, corporate LDS Church is false, then all of Mormonism (in any of its interpretations) must be false. This is not true.

My question to you, in a word, was:

Do you believe in Mormonism in any form?

[ithink]

The LDS Church aside, what is your take on Mormonism in general? Because LDS Mormonism is by no means the only form.

Not sure what you are referring to.

Luke is an independent, and I think a lot of us are heading that way in some form or another. Personally I can see myself ending up with Protestsnt dissidents. iIf you read this forum (you probably have), there is a lot of dissent about the injections and mandates which church leadership are pushing. There are other issues, of course, but that's the big one just now.

Interesting. I could answer that this way. Right around the time we stopped going to Church my eldest daughter was due to be baptized. This stuff going on interdicted it all. So we had to decide if she needed to be baptized or not. I mean, baptism is important, isn't it?

Christs baptism sure was, but we had to come to the conclusion that our baptisms really weren't, and certainly were NOT required for "salvation". I can say that in addition to my research, I also had an experience that is similar to what some would call a near death experience except my first purview upon leaving my mortal surroundings was not "heaven", but the other place. Eventually I saw "heaven" too, but neither are what you think they are unless you have seen them for yourself. The one is far worse than you can imagine, and the other far better worth trying for, and very easy to achieve. So easy it just can't be possible -- right? I'd suggest everyone here wants the better place. But I can also say some who think that is what they are getting, are not, because they overcomplicate things.

I'm being overly vague, but IMHO, if you are of a belief in Christ and you are simply able to just believe what He taught without all the bells and whistles, that is OK. If you choose to believe that Christ did away with the old law and I mean ALL OF IT, and you are a "fair" person, one who fits into the "if they are not against us, they are for us" group, then you will be fine to live out a good life and be content and at peace with yourself. If you choose to implement parts of the old law in your life, you might be OK but could eventually find yourself making decisions in the best interests of the institution you are member of, rather than in the best interests of the members of that institution. This might put you personally in jeopardy. Serious jeopardy.

My point is whomever you are and whatever you are a part of, try to make the right decision for the individual at all times even if that individual is just you. Doing that might be the more difficult path to take, and usually is, but do it anyway. You cannot risk ending up in the wrong place. It is, and I have to say it again, it is MUCH WORSE THAN YOU COULD EVER IMAGINE.

[ithink]

The LDS Church aside, what is your take on Mormonism in general? Because LDS Mormonism is by no means the only form.

Not sure what you are referring to.

This to me seems to be the problem with those who go down the route of “anti-Mormonism”. They are unable to separate the LDS Church (an institution) from Mormonism (a set of ideas, which change depending on person to person).

In other words, Mormonism is much more then the LDS Church. There are those who fall into the camp that the Book of Mormon is true, but that Joseph was a fallen prophet. There are those who fall into the “Reorganisation” camp and among other things, believe that polygamy was wrong. There are Fundamentalists, like myself (and I not belong to any of the groups). There are people who believe in men like Denver Snuffer.

My point is that some people believe that if the modern, corporate LDS Church is false, then all of Mormonism (in any of its interpretations) must be false. This is not true.

My question to you, in a word, was:

Do you believe in Mormonism in any form?

I feel like Ralph Poelman has been resurrected and I am talking to him right now.

Elder Poelman, er, Luke, I try not to love any lie or hate any truth. Especially the big ones.

Inasmuch as I can deduce a lie, I treat it as repugnant. Especially the big institutional ones.

For the truth so far as it can be determined, I embrace it.

I don't believe in "Mormonism" any more than I disbelieve it.

What is Mormonism?
Mormonism as a religion?
Mormonism as a culture?
Mormonism as a cult?

What do you mean?

I don't know.
Do I believe in families?
Of course.

But is belief in families an exclusive tenet of Mormonism?

Do I believe in the First Vision?

I don't know, you tell me which one I'm supposed to believe, and I'll answer as best I can.

[EvanLM]

you are right about the complications and rules, rules, rules. Those endless rules show up on this forum all the time. Even some posters that have left the mormon church, still sound like the church and they still don't realize how much they follow the same rules they were taught as mormons. . . it shows in their posts. This makes it difficult to get any headway on conversations, although there have been some excellent posters who have demonstrated their kindness and spiritual thought. Where can one buy your book?

[Peeps]

Greetings and Merry Christmas all.

It's been many years since I posted here. Brian has graciously handed me a pencil again. Let's hope it doesn't snap in half this time.

It's nice to see so many familiar names still floating around. I have poked my head in here at least every few months for the past few years. I can't believe Poker and the Art is still going and going and going! I have to confess though that I never liked that thread, it made no sense to me. Perhaps that is just because a long time member of the church I knew a long time ago wasn't my favorite guy -- and his name just happened to be Conrad. It's hard to shake the bias sometimes I think.

But I'm rambling already.

To the point. Over a decade ago I set out to deal with many of the discrepancies in the Church, of which I am still counted as a "member" although I don't count that as anything of any meaning anymore so far as being a "member" in and of itself. What happened was a quest spanning several years of research in addition to what I already knew in an attempt to dispel the darkness and shed some light on the reality of my life, and my and my families' life in the church. What has come of this is a book which you can overview at jasondraper.me.

I have hesitated to publish this book (for 5 years now) for reasons that I can't really define except that I didn't want to hurt my adopted LDS family (literally), even after they shunned me and my family after we ceased attendance around 10 years ago. I also didn't want to hurt anyone else with what I have learned. That is not why wrote the book, and it's not why I'm clicking the keyboard right now. In fact, if what I have laid out might help someone, then my reasons for finally publishing will be realized. Unfortunately it is clear to anyone with eyes, which means most members of this forum -- that is likely why you are here -- that the damage being done and the level of pain that is being inflicted on the trusted masses both in and out of the Church is rising to the point of unbelief. Seeing this, I finally decided to let this loose. God knows it might be needed right now.

Again, nice to have a voice again.

Love and Hate of
Lies and Truth

It is my hope that in another decade I might be writing another book with those words moved around a bit.

- ithink

I tried to go to jasondraper.me, but I got a "404 error" message. Can you kindly post that link again? I would appreciate it.

Edit: it works, my fault.

[Peeps]

The LDS Church aside, what is your take on Mormonism in general? Because LDS Mormonism is by no means the only form.

Not sure what you are referring to.

Luke is an independent, and I think a lot of us are heading that way in some form or another. Personally I can see myself ending up with Protestsnt dissidents. iIf you read this forum (you probably have), there is a lot of dissent about the injections and mandates which church leadership are pushing. There are other issues, of course, but that's the big one just now.

Interesting. I could answer that this way. Right around the time we stopped going to Church my eldest daughter was due to be baptized. This stuff going on interdicted it all. So we had to decide if she needed to be baptized or not. I mean, baptism is important, isn't it?

Christs baptism sure was, but we had to come to the conclusion that our baptisms really weren't, and certainly were NOT required for "salvation". I can say that in addition to my research, I also had an experience that is similar to what some would call a near death experience except my first purview upon leaving my mortal surroundings was not "heaven", but the other place. Eventually I saw "heaven" too, but neither are what you think they are unless you have seen them for yourself. The one is far worse than you can imagine, and the other far better worth trying for, and very easy to achieve. So easy it just can't be possible -- right? I'd suggest everyone here wants the better place. But I can also say some who think that is what they are getting, are not, because they overcomplicate things.

I'm being overly vague, but IMHO, if you are of a belief in Christ and you are simply able to just believe what He taught without all the bells and whistles, that is OK. If you choose to believe that Christ did away with the old law and I mean ALL OF IT, and you are a "fair" person, one who fits into the "if they are not against us, they are for us" group, then you will be fine to live out a good life and be content and at peace with yourself. If you choose to implement parts of the old law in your life, you might be OK but could eventually find yourself making decisions in the best interests of the institution you are member of, rather than in the best interests of the members of that institution. This might put you personally in jeopardy. Serious jeopardy.

My point is whomever you are and whatever you are a part of, try to make the right decision for the individual at all times even if that individual is just you. Doing that might be the more difficult path to take, and usually is, but do it anyway. You cannot risk ending up in the wrong place. It is, and I have to say it again, it is MUCH WORSE THAN YOU COULD EVER IMAGINE.

Yes, I worry about those that think they have their salvation thing in the bag, and are eagerly expecting their exaltation because they did some rituals in an LDS temple. I am so glad you shared this. I will take it as a confirmation, and I hope the ones who are taking their salvation for granted, will take your experience to heart.

[ithink]

you are right about the complications and rules, rules, rules. Those endless rules show up on this forum all the time. Even some posters that have left the mormon church, still sound like the church and they still don't realize how much they follow the same rules they were taught as mormons. . . it shows in their posts. This makes it difficult to get any headway on conversations, although there have been some excellent posters who have demonstrated their kindness and spiritual thought. Where can one buy your book?

It's on Amazon. Jump from jasondraper.me

You are right I think.
If you cease attending meetings, you might get criticized "you can leave the church but you can't leave it alone".
But if you take the boy out of church, can you ever really take the church out of the boy?
Would you ever want to?
I don't think so.

[Obrien]

Greetings and Merry Christmas all.

It's been many years since I posted here. Brian has graciously handed me a pencil again. Let's hope it doesn't snap in half this time....

- ithink

Merry Christmas to you, ithink. No disrespect intended by truncating your quote. I'm a mobile user, and scrolling through long quoted sections is tedious.

We IM'd many years ago on this forum, and I occasionally wonder where some of the old timers (including yourself) wound up. It sounds like your in a better spot today. I hope you've been successful in processing your experiences both in your family and the church. Peace and love to you.

[ithink]

Greetings and Merry Christmas all.

It's been many years since I posted here. Brian has graciously handed me a pencil again. Let's hope it doesn't snap in half this time....

- ithink

Merry Christmas to you, ithink. No disrespect intended by truncating your quote. I'm a mobile user, and scrolling through long quoted sections is tedious.

We IM'd many years ago on this forum, and I occasionally wonder where some of the old timers (including yourself) wound up. It sounds like your in a better spot today. I hope you've been successful in processing your experiences both in your family and the church. Peace and love to you.

Hello again Obrien. Yes, I remember you but it's fuzzy. Nice to reacquaint!

A better spot is what we are all pursuing, it seems it never ends. And now we are facing a global catastrophe of sorts the likes of which have never been known.

I hope we are up to the task. Folk like you are for sure, we just need to make it contagious.

[Jonesy]

The LDS Church aside, what is your take on Mormonism in general? Because LDS Mormonism is by no means the only form.

Not sure what you are referring to.

Luke is an independent, and I think a lot of us are heading that way in some form or another. Personally I can see myself ending up with Protestsnt dissidents. iIf you read this forum (you probably have), there is a lot of dissent about the injections and mandates which church leadership are pushing. There are other issues, of course, but that's the big one just now.

Interesting. I could answer that this way. Right around the time we stopped going to Church my eldest daughter was due to be baptized. This stuff going on interdicted it all. So we had to decide if she needed to be baptized or not. I mean, baptism is important, isn't it?

Christs baptism sure was, but we had to come to the conclusion that our baptisms really weren't, and certainly were NOT required for "salvation". I can say that in addition to my research, I also had an experience that is similar to what some would call a near death experience except my first purview upon leaving my mortal surroundings was not "heaven", but the other place. Eventually I saw "heaven" too, but neither are what you think they are unless you have seen them for yourself. The one is far worse than you can imagine, and the other far better worth trying for, and very easy to achieve. So easy it just can't be possible -- right? I'd suggest everyone here wants the better place. But I can also say some who think that is what they are getting, are not, because they overcomplicate things.

I'm being overly vague, but IMHO, if you are of a belief in Christ and you are simply able to just believe what He taught without all the bells and whistles, that is OK. If you choose to believe that Christ did away with the old law and I mean ALL OF IT, and you are a "fair" person, one who fits into the "if they are not against us, they are for us" group, then you will be fine to live out a good life and be content and at peace with yourself. If you choose to implement parts of the old law in your life, you might be OK but could eventually find yourself making decisions in the best interests of the institution you are member of, rather than in the best interests of the members of that institution. This might put you personally in jeopardy. Serious jeopardy.

My point is whomever you are and whatever you are a part of, try to make the right decision for the individual at all times even if that individual is just you. Doing that might be the more difficult path to take, and usually is, but do it anyway. You cannot risk ending up in the wrong place. It is, and I have to say it again, it is MUCH WORSE THAN YOU COULD EVER IMAGINE.

My understanding is that baptism is necessary and even more efficacious in the church. The purpose is for the resurrection. Those seeking after righteousness will be aided, but Joseph Smith was given authority through priesthood created with intention of aiding work of eternity. Nevertheless, I do believe baptism remains with individuals who leave church and are just trying their best. It’s still better to be baptized.

[Peeps]

Not sure what you are referring to.

Luke is an independent, and I think a lot of us are heading that way in some form or another. Personally I can see myself ending up with Protestsnt dissidents. iIf you read this forum (you probably have), there is a lot of dissent about the injections and mandates which church leadership are pushing. There are other issues, of course, but that's the big one just now.

Interesting. I could answer that this way. Right around the time we stopped going to Church my eldest daughter was due to be baptized. This stuff going on interdicted it all. So we had to decide if she needed to be baptized or not. I mean, baptism is important, isn't it?

Christs baptism sure was, but we had to come to the conclusion that our baptisms really weren't, and certainly were NOT required for "salvation". I can say that in addition to my research, I also had an experience that is similar to what some would call a near death experience except my first purview upon leaving my mortal surroundings was not "heaven", but the other place. Eventually I saw "heaven" too, but neither are what you think they are unless you have seen them for yourself. The one is far worse than you can imagine, and the other far better worth trying for, and very easy to achieve. So easy it just can't be possible -- right? I'd suggest everyone here wants the better place. But I can also say some who think that is what they are getting, are not, because they overcomplicate things.

I'm being overly vague, but IMHO, if you are of a belief in Christ and you are simply able to just believe what He taught without all the bells and whistles, that is OK. If you choose to believe that Christ did away with the old law and I mean ALL OF IT, and you are a "fair" person, one who fits into the "if they are not against us, they are for us" group, then you will be fine to live out a good life and be content and at peace with yourself. If you choose to implement parts of the old law in your life, you might be OK but could eventually find yourself making decisions in the best interests of the institution you are member of, rather than in the best interests of the members of that institution. This might put you personally in jeopardy. Serious jeopardy.

My point is whomever you are and whatever you are a part of, try to make the right decision for the individual at all times even if that individual is just you. Doing that might be the more difficult path to take, and usually is, but do it anyway. You cannot risk ending up in the wrong place. It is, and I have to say it again, it is MUCH WORSE THAN YOU COULD EVER IMAGINE.

My understanding is that baptism is necessary and even more efficacious in the church. The purpose is for the resurrection. Those seeking after righteousness will be aided, but Joseph Smith was given authority through priesthood created with intention of aiding work of eternity. Nevertheless, I do believe baptism remains with individuals who leave church and are just trying their best. It’s still better to be baptized.

Joseph Smith's version of the celestial kingdom is like the Egyptian afterlife in many ways. Maybe exactly like it, which will not help a person pass by all these sentinel angels with tokens and secret handshakes unless you are a descendant of Cain. These are the gods of the dead, which do sail the stars, though you will not "hie to Kolob." These are for the reptilian races, who can go back and forth freely from the realm of the dead to be reborn into a flesh body as long as the host body has the right DNA. This is how the Egyptian pantheon was started. Noah had eight souls on the ark. Satan counterfeited this with the boat of Ra, which sailed in the waters above the firmament carrying the "Ogdoad", the egg with 8 primordial dieties, four male dieties that looked like frogs, four serpent females. They will not honor your temple covenants, covenant with death. If this happens and you find out that you are being ushered into a not so nice place, remember to call on Jesus Christ.

The Ogdoad and the boat of Ra:






Serpents in incubators coming out of a lotus? They are not light bulbs. Not sure how they came back after the flood, but these carvings on the Dendera Temple Complex probably hold their secrets.

[Jonesy]

Luke is an independent, and I think a lot of us are heading that way in some form or another. Personally I can see myself ending up with Protestsnt dissidents. iIf you read this forum (you probably have), there is a lot of dissent about the injections and mandates which church leadership are pushing. There are other issues, of course, but that's the big one just now.

Interesting. I could answer that this way. Right around the time we stopped going to Church my eldest daughter was due to be baptized. This stuff going on interdicted it all. So we had to decide if she needed to be baptized or not. I mean, baptism is important, isn't it?

Christs baptism sure was, but we had to come to the conclusion that our baptisms really weren't, and certainly were NOT required for "salvation". I can say that in addition to my research, I also had an experience that is similar to what some would call a near death experience except my first purview upon leaving my mortal surroundings was not "heaven", but the other place. Eventually I saw "heaven" too, but neither are what you think they are unless you have seen them for yourself. The one is far worse than you can imagine, and the other far better worth trying for, and very easy to achieve. So easy it just can't be possible -- right? I'd suggest everyone here wants the better place. But I can also say some who think that is what they are getting, are not, because they overcomplicate things.

I'm being overly vague, but IMHO, if you are of a belief in Christ and you are simply able to just believe what He taught without all the bells and whistles, that is OK. If you choose to believe that Christ did away with the old law and I mean ALL OF IT, and you are a "fair" person, one who fits into the "if they are not against us, they are for us" group, then you will be fine to live out a good life and be content and at peace with yourself. If you choose to implement parts of the old law in your life, you might be OK but could eventually find yourself making decisions in the best interests of the institution you are member of, rather than in the best interests of the members of that institution. This might put you personally in jeopardy. Serious jeopardy.

My point is whomever you are and whatever you are a part of, try to make the right decision for the individual at all times even if that individual is just you. Doing that might be the more difficult path to take, and usually is, but do it anyway. You cannot risk ending up in the wrong place. It is, and I have to say it again, it is MUCH WORSE THAN YOU COULD EVER IMAGINE.

My understanding is that baptism is necessary and even more efficacious in the church. The purpose is for the resurrection. Those seeking after righteousness will be aided, but Joseph Smith was given authority through priesthood created with intention of aiding work of eternity. Nevertheless, I do believe baptism remains with individuals who leave church and are just trying their best. It’s still better to be baptized.

Joseph Smith's version of the celestial kingdom is like the Egyptian afterlife in many ways. Maybe exactly like it, which will not help a person pass by all these sentinel angels with tokens and secret handshakes unless you are a descendant of Cain. These are the gods of the dead, which do sail the stars, though you will not "hie to Kolob." These are for the reptilian races, who can go back and forth freely from the realm of the dead to be reborn into a flesh body as long as the host body has the right DNA. This is how the Egyptian pantheon was started. Noah had eight souls on the ark. Satan counterfeited this with the boat of Ra, which sailed in the waters above the firmament carrying the "Ogdoad", the egg with 8 primordial dieties, four male dieties that looked like frogs, four serpent females. They will not honor your temple covenants, covenant with death. If this happens and you find out that you are being ushered into a not so nice place, remember to call on Jesus Christ.

The Ogdoad and the boat of Ra:






Serpents in incubators coming out of a lotus? They are not light bulbs. Not sure how they came back after the flood, but these carvings on the Dendera Temple Complex probably hold their secrets.

Anything related to freemasonry done by Joseph Smith is to undo the works of the devil, and the LDS works will be used and recognized by God in undoing those works. But thanks. Always good advice to call on Jesus.

[Peeps]

Jesus Christ is a sure thing. Joseph Smith is not on the same level as Christ. Joseph boasted a lot.

[BeNotDeceived]

Jesus Christ is a sure thing. Joseph Smith is not on the same level as Christ. Joseph boasted a lot.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45255&p=777947&hilit=Splode#p777947

Was a great write up on the subject that had gone missing, but is now published at:

https://www.deseret.com/2009/8/20/20335 ... -of-praise

And here’s more:

http://www.nauvootimes.com/cgi-bin/nauv ... ott%20Card

where likely lies a few gems.

[ithink]

Not sure what you are referring to.

Luke is an independent, and I think a lot of us are heading that way in some form or another. Personally I can see myself ending up with Protestsnt dissidents. iIf you read this forum (you probably have), there is a lot of dissent about the injections and mandates which church leadership are pushing. There are other issues, of course, but that's the big one just now.

Interesting. I could answer that this way. Right around the time we stopped going to Church my eldest daughter was due to be baptized. This stuff going on interdicted it all. So we had to decide if she needed to be baptized or not. I mean, baptism is important, isn't it?

Christs baptism sure was, but we had to come to the conclusion that our baptisms really weren't, and certainly were NOT required for "salvation". I can say that in addition to my research, I also had an experience that is similar to what some would call a near death experience except my first purview upon leaving my mortal surroundings was not "heaven", but the other place. Eventually I saw "heaven" too, but neither are what you think they are unless you have seen them for yourself. The one is far worse than you can imagine, and the other far better worth trying for, and very easy to achieve. So easy it just can't be possible -- right? I'd suggest everyone here wants the better place. But I can also say some who think that is what they are getting, are not, because they overcomplicate things.

I'm being overly vague, but IMHO, if you are of a belief in Christ and you are simply able to just believe what He taught without all the bells and whistles, that is OK. If you choose to believe that Christ did away with the old law and I mean ALL OF IT, and you are a "fair" person, one who fits into the "if they are not against us, they are for us" group, then you will be fine to live out a good life and be content and at peace with yourself. If you choose to implement parts of the old law in your life, you might be OK but could eventually find yourself making decisions in the best interests of the institution you are member of, rather than in the best interests of the members of that institution. This might put you personally in jeopardy. Serious jeopardy.

My point is whomever you are and whatever you are a part of, try to make the right decision for the individual at all times even if that individual is just you. Doing that might be the more difficult path to take, and usually is, but do it anyway. You cannot risk ending up in the wrong place. It is, and I have to say it again, it is MUCH WORSE THAN YOU COULD EVER IMAGINE.

My understanding is that baptism is necessary and even more efficacious in the church. The purpose is for the resurrection. Those seeking after righteousness will be aided, but Joseph Smith was given authority through priesthood created with intention of aiding work of eternity. Nevertheless, I do believe baptism remains with individuals who leave church and are just trying their best. It’s still better to be baptized.

Maybe.

But:

“Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed
of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have
forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One
of Israel unto danger, they are gone away backward.” (Isaiah)

[GeeR]

Yes, I worry about those that think they have their salvation thing in the bag, and are eagerly expecting their exaltation because they did some rituals in an LDS temple.

This comment made me laugh because it brought back memories of an experience I had in the Provo Temple many years back. I was fully engaged in the temple endowment and this older brother was fast asleep next to me. When it came time to stand up in the session, he was about to the point of snoring, I put my hand on his shoulder and shook it a little. He look around somewhat disoriented and he saw me in my bright white temple clothing. His eyes opened wide and he was smiling and saying: "I made it, I made it." I didn't know what to say, some people close chuckled and then he realized the situation he put himself in and was very apologetic to me.

[Mamabear]

Not sure what you are referring to.

Luke is an independent, and I think a lot of us are heading that way in some form or another. Personally I can see myself ending up with Protestsnt dissidents. iIf you read this forum (you probably have), there is a lot of dissent about the injections and mandates which church leadership are pushing. There are other issues, of course, but that's the big one just now.

Interesting. I could answer that this way. Right around the time we stopped going to Church my eldest daughter was due to be baptized. This stuff going on interdicted it all. So we had to decide if she needed to be baptized or not. I mean, baptism is important, isn't it?

Christs baptism sure was, but we had to come to the conclusion that our baptisms really weren't, and certainly were NOT required for "salvation". I can say that in addition to my research, I also had an experience that is similar to what some would call a near death experience except my first purview upon leaving my mortal surroundings was not "heaven", but the other place. Eventually I saw "heaven" too, but neither are what you think they are unless you have seen them for yourself. The one is far worse than you can imagine, and the other far better worth trying for, and very easy to achieve. So easy it just can't be possible -- right? I'd suggest everyone here wants the better place. But I can also say some who think that is what they are getting, are not, because they overcomplicate things.

I'm being overly vague, but IMHO, if you are of a belief in Christ and you are simply able to just believe what He taught without all the bells and whistles, that is OK. If you choose to believe that Christ did away with the old law and I mean ALL OF IT, and you are a "fair" person, one who fits into the "if they are not against us, they are for us" group, then you will be fine to live out a good life and be content and at peace with yourself. If you choose to implement parts of the old law in your life, you might be OK but could eventually find yourself making decisions in the best interests of the institution you are member of, rather than in the best interests of the members of that institution. This might put you personally in jeopardy. Serious jeopardy.

My point is whomever you are and whatever you are a part of, try to make the right decision for the individual at all times even if that individual is just you. Doing that might be the more difficult path to take, and usually is, but do it anyway. You cannot risk ending up in the wrong place. It is, and I have to say it again, it is MUCH WORSE THAN YOU COULD EVER IMAGINE.

Yes, I worry about those that think they have their salvation thing in the bag, and are eagerly expecting their exaltation because they did some rituals in an LDS temple. I am so glad you shared this. I will take it as a confirmation, and I hope the ones who are taking their salvation for granted, will take your experience to heart.

This is a great resource. What you just said reminded me of it.
https://ldsendowment.blogspot.com/p/abo ... e.html?m=1

[Jonesy]

Luke is an independent, and I think a lot of us are heading that way in some form or another. Personally I can see myself ending up with Protestsnt dissidents. iIf you read this forum (you probably have), there is a lot of dissent about the injections and mandates which church leadership are pushing. There are other issues, of course, but that's the big one just now.

Interesting. I could answer that this way. Right around the time we stopped going to Church my eldest daughter was due to be baptized. This stuff going on interdicted it all. So we had to decide if she needed to be baptized or not. I mean, baptism is important, isn't it?

Christs baptism sure was, but we had to come to the conclusion that our baptisms really weren't, and certainly were NOT required for "salvation". I can say that in addition to my research, I also had an experience that is similar to what some would call a near death experience except my first purview upon leaving my mortal surroundings was not "heaven", but the other place. Eventually I saw "heaven" too, but neither are what you think they are unless you have seen them for yourself. The one is far worse than you can imagine, and the other far better worth trying for, and very easy to achieve. So easy it just can't be possible -- right? I'd suggest everyone here wants the better place. But I can also say some who think that is what they are getting, are not, because they overcomplicate things.

I'm being overly vague, but IMHO, if you are of a belief in Christ and you are simply able to just believe what He taught without all the bells and whistles, that is OK. If you choose to believe that Christ did away with the old law and I mean ALL OF IT, and you are a "fair" person, one who fits into the "if they are not against us, they are for us" group, then you will be fine to live out a good life and be content and at peace with yourself. If you choose to implement parts of the old law in your life, you might be OK but could eventually find yourself making decisions in the best interests of the institution you are member of, rather than in the best interests of the members of that institution. This might put you personally in jeopardy. Serious jeopardy.

My point is whomever you are and whatever you are a part of, try to make the right decision for the individual at all times even if that individual is just you. Doing that might be the more difficult path to take, and usually is, but do it anyway. You cannot risk ending up in the wrong place. It is, and I have to say it again, it is MUCH WORSE THAN YOU COULD EVER IMAGINE.

My understanding is that baptism is necessary and even more efficacious in the church. The purpose is for the resurrection. Those seeking after righteousness will be aided, but Joseph Smith was given authority through priesthood created with intention of aiding work of eternity. Nevertheless, I do believe baptism remains with individuals who leave church and are just trying their best. It’s still better to be baptized.

Maybe.

But:

“Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed
of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have
forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One
of Israel unto danger, they are gone away backward.” (Isaiah)

True, we are not headed the right direction. But we have not rejected the fullness of the gospel per 3 Nephi 16:10.

[Bronco73idi]

Interesting. I could answer that this way. Right around the time we stopped going to Church my eldest daughter was due to be baptized. This stuff going on interdicted it all. So we had to decide if she needed to be baptized or not. I mean, baptism is important, isn't it?

Christs baptism sure was, but we had to come to the conclusion that our baptisms really weren't, and certainly were NOT required for "salvation". I can say that in addition to my research, I also had an experience that is similar to what some would call a near death experience except my first purview upon leaving my mortal surroundings was not "heaven", but the other place. Eventually I saw "heaven" too, but neither are what you think they are unless you have seen them for yourself. The one is far worse than you can imagine, and the other far better worth trying for, and very easy to achieve. So easy it just can't be possible -- right? I'd suggest everyone here wants the better place. But I can also say some who think that is what they are getting, are not, because they overcomplicate things.

I'm being overly vague, but IMHO, if you are of a belief in Christ and you are simply able to just believe what He taught without all the bells and whistles, that is OK. If you choose to believe that Christ did away with the old law and I mean ALL OF IT, and you are a "fair" person, one who fits into the "if they are not against us, they are for us" group, then you will be fine to live out a good life and be content and at peace with yourself. If you choose to implement parts of the old law in your life, you might be OK but could eventually find yourself making decisions in the best interests of the institution you are member of, rather than in the best interests of the members of that institution. This might put you personally in jeopardy. Serious jeopardy.

My point is whomever you are and whatever you are a part of, try to make the right decision for the individual at all times even if that individual is just you. Doing that might be the more difficult path to take, and usually is, but do it anyway. You cannot risk ending up in the wrong place. It is, and I have to say it again, it is MUCH WORSE THAN YOU COULD EVER IMAGINE.

My understanding is that baptism is necessary and even more efficacious in the church. The purpose is for the resurrection. Those seeking after righteousness will be aided, but Joseph Smith was given authority through priesthood created with intention of aiding work of eternity. Nevertheless, I do believe baptism remains with individuals who leave church and are just trying their best. It’s still better to be baptized.

Maybe.

But:

“Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed
of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have
forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One
of Israel unto danger, they are gone away backward.” (Isaiah)

True, we are not headed the right direction. But we have not rejected the fullness of the gospel per 3 Nephi 16:10.

Almost like Jesus going to the temple…… oh yeah just like it.

[InfoWarrior82]

Interesting. I could answer that this way. Right around the time we stopped going to Church my eldest daughter was due to be baptized. This stuff going on interdicted it all. So we had to decide if she needed to be baptized or not. I mean, baptism is important, isn't it?

Christs baptism sure was, but we had to come to the conclusion that our baptisms really weren't, and certainly were NOT required for "salvation". I can say that in addition to my research, I also had an experience that is similar to what some would call a near death experience except my first purview upon leaving my mortal surroundings was not "heaven", but the other place. Eventually I saw "heaven" too, but neither are what you think they are unless you have seen them for yourself. The one is far worse than you can imagine, and the other far better worth trying for, and very easy to achieve. So easy it just can't be possible -- right? I'd suggest everyone here wants the better place. But I can also say some who think that is what they are getting, are not, because they overcomplicate things.

I'm being overly vague, but IMHO, if you are of a belief in Christ and you are simply able to just believe what He taught without all the bells and whistles, that is OK. If you choose to believe that Christ did away with the old law and I mean ALL OF IT, and you are a "fair" person, one who fits into the "if they are not against us, they are for us" group, then you will be fine to live out a good life and be content and at peace with yourself. If you choose to implement parts of the old law in your life, you might be OK but could eventually find yourself making decisions in the best interests of the institution you are member of, rather than in the best interests of the members of that institution. This might put you personally in jeopardy. Serious jeopardy.

My point is whomever you are and whatever you are a part of, try to make the right decision for the individual at all times even if that individual is just you. Doing that might be the more difficult path to take, and usually is, but do it anyway. You cannot risk ending up in the wrong place. It is, and I have to say it again, it is MUCH WORSE THAN YOU COULD EVER IMAGINE.

My understanding is that baptism is necessary and even more efficacious in the church. The purpose is for the resurrection. Those seeking after righteousness will be aided, but Joseph Smith was given authority through priesthood created with intention of aiding work of eternity. Nevertheless, I do believe baptism remains with individuals who leave church and are just trying their best. It’s still better to be baptized.

Maybe.

But:

“Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed
of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have
forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One
of Israel unto danger, they are gone away backward.” (Isaiah)

True, we are not headed the right direction. But we have not rejected the fullness of the gospel per 3 Nephi 16:10.

If we have treated the Book of Mormon lightly, we are rejecting the fulness of the gospel.


53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.