Church is Robbing the Lamanites of their Birthright

[stormcloak]

"So much has been systematically destroyed and lost (example: look at the giants' remains that were destroyed; I have seen in other discussion these could perhaps have been the Jaredites and it makes sense!) in the colonization effort, but of course that was foretold."

This is the heart of "evidence" for the Heartlander theorists: it was destroyed so there is none.

It's the same argument that UFO and Holocaust Conspiracy Theorists use: "Hitler destroyed the gas chambers and all the documents, that's why they don't exist!"

This is a totally false equivalence. There IS a MASSIVE coverup effort to destroy all evidence of any significant civilization in America pre-Columbus (including evidence of giants). You can watch this video for more info: Jim Viera - Research of Giant Skeletons / Remains

You can also ruminate on the fact that the founders of the Smithsonian had fathers who were preachers from Palmyra that detested Joseph Smith:

• https://tldrify.com/169h
• https://bookofmormonevidence.org/native ... sely-lost/
• https://bookofmormonevidence.org/john-w ... _of_Mormon

There has also been a massive coverup to hide and destroy evidence proving the authenticity of the Bible... and a massive coverup to hide the history of the communist takeover of America... and a massive coverup to hide cures for cancer... and a massive coverup to hide true science and the nature of our spirits (D&C 131:7)... in short, many things have been foisted upon us and hidden from our understanding because of the "evil designs which exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days!!!" (D&C 89:4).

Just because sometimes there really is no evidence for certain falsehoods (e.g., "masks save lives", "Russia hacked the election", "Trump raped dozens of women", etc.), doesn't mean that there is no such thing as a conspiracy to destroy evidence and cover things up!!! There are definitely conspiracies to cover things up, all over the place in the modern world today!!! Joseph Smith said: "I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief." (TPJS 374)

[stormcloak]

The obvious problem with this reasoning is that Joseph was only referring to the Lamanites in this particular area. To make your claim stick, you would have to show where JS also said something like: "This is the only place you will find Lamanites" or "Lamanites are not present in any other location in either North or South America or in the southern portion of North America, AKA Central America or Mesoamerican. Can you find such statements? Nope.

He didn't need to make such qualifications—he just thought it was common sense.

Why did Joseph quit working at the Times and Seasons in a fury after his brother and Benjamin Winchester ran their false story?

Within days of the unauthorized release of the three Mesoamerican articles in the fall of 1842, Joseph fired William from The Wasp, had Winchester removed as Branch President in Philadelphia, and resigned as Editor of the Times and Seasons himself.

(source)

This shows quite conclusively, that he did NOT approve the attempts of those who were trying to say that the Lamanites were to be found in Mesoamerica!

[stormcloak]

Not really. Dr. John Lund did an exhaustive study showing the high probability that Joseph authored the two 1842 Times and Seasons editorials that mentioned Zarahemla and the narrow neck of land being in the region of Guatemala.

John Lund's study is very flawed. As stated in one of my originally-referenced articles:

Two stylometry studies by LDS scholars have purported to prove Joseph was the author (or co-author) of the Times and Seasons articles. However, both studies limited their examination to only three possible authors: Joseph Smith, Wilford Woodruff, and John Taylor. Of the three, Joseph’s writing style was closest to the actual author’s, but not by much. The Mesoamerican articles were linguistic outliers. The results of the study showed it was unlikely that any of the three candidates they tested were the actual author. In fact, these studies essentially proved Joseph could not have been the author. (That analysis is too detailed for this article, but it is included in the book, “The Lost City of Zarahemla,” which discusses the historical facts in depth.)

Jonathan Neville's study is here, which thoroughly debunks Lund's claims and shows the reality behind those two articles: https://bookofmormonevidence.org/bookst ... emla-book/

I find it quite intriguing that Lund's study has received wide marketing by the Deseret News (which has been a communist propaganda outlet for some time now). Clearly the Church has a vested interest and an agenda in keeping people snowed with the Mesoamerican model, because they know that if it goes out the window, then many Hispanic converts will turn away, and false prophets like Gerrit W. Gong will be exposed...

I've yet to see any rebuttal of Lund's work that has any substance or credibility.

I'm sure you'll dismiss Jonathan Neville's study because you simply dislike his conclusions, but it's absolutely valid and credible despite your supercilious prejudices. The Book of Mormon itself came from an undistinguished, poor farm boy from upstate New York—which certainly caused many people to reject his testimony out-of-hand, as they couldn't put their trust in a boy whose claims had such (seemingly) little "substance or credibility."

This whole topic surfaces like clock-work on LDSFF, and has been hashed over endlessly.

So do many other topics... your point being?

[stormcloak]

As I mentioned above, it struck me that the BoM barely mentions the cold. "Ice" is never mentioned, "snow" only once and in Lehi's dream, not in a description of where they lived. This is pretty significant given how ferocious North American winters can be in some parts. (And Joseph Smith himself would have experienced them.)

The weather in the Book of Mormon is written about in several places, which actually reveal a North American climate (see links below), but even so, I don't know why so many Mesoamerican proponents run to this defense so often. Nephi gave his children a commandment:

Wherefore, I shall give commandment unto my seed, that they shall not occupy these plates with things which are not of worth unto the children of men.

(1 Nephi 6:6)

Writing detailed particulars about their weather was undoubtedly considered worthless to the children of men. They'd expect us to know what the weather was like anyway, based on where the book was found, after all. Furthermore, they had very limited space to write on, to say nothing of the difficulty of making legible scratches on metal plates. So it wasn't a quick endeavor to go and write 5 verses about how badly it snowed last year, or how hot it was this summer. Mormon even had to "compress" the record further, undoubtedly leaving out many unnecessary details about many things. This is perhaps hard to understand in modern times, where it's very easy for us to write everything about everything, and the art of brevity has become lost knowledge to many.

However, in spite of even all this, there is MUCH to indicate that cold weather did indeed take place in the Book of Mormon:

• https://bookofmormonevidence.org/snow-c ... of-mormon/
• https://bookofmormonevidence.org/is-the ... of-mormon/

You also have to ask yourself about the whirlwinds in 3 Nephi 8-10 (whirlwinds don't occur in most of Mesoamerica and South America)...

[Niemand]

As I mentioned above, it struck me that the BoM barely mentions the cold. "Ice" is never mentioned, "snow" only once and in Lehi's dream, not in a description of where they lived. This is pretty significant given how ferocious North American winters can be in some parts. (And Joseph Smith himself would have experienced them.)

The weather in the Book of Mormon is written about in several places, which actually reveal a North American climate (see links below), but even so, I don't know why so many Mesoamerican proponents run to this defense so often. Nephi gave his children a commandment:

Wherefore, I shall give commandment unto my seed, that they shall not occupy these plates with things which are not of worth unto the children of men.

(1 Nephi 6:6)

Writing detailed particulars about their weather was undoubtedly considered worthless to the children of men. They'd expect us to know what the weather was like anyway, based on where the book was found, after all. Furthermore, they had very limited space to write on, to say nothing of the difficulty of making legible scratches on metal plates. So it wasn't a quick endeavor to go and write 5 verses about how badly it snowed last year, or how hot it was this summer. Mormon even had to "compress" the record further, undoubtedly leaving out many unnecessary details about many things. This is perhaps hard to understand in modern times, where it's very easy for us to write everything about everything, and the art of brevity has become lost knowledge to many.

However, in spite of even all this, there is MUCH to indicate that cold weather did indeed take place in the Book of Mormon:

• https://bookofmormonevidence.org/snow-c ... of-mormon/
• https://bookofmormonevidence.org/is-the ... of-mormon/

You also have to ask yourself about the whirlwinds in 3 Nephi 8-10 (whirlwinds don't occur in most of Mesoamerica and South America)...

Both of these concentrate on something which appears in a vision. Snow isn't unknown at most latitudes of the Americas. There is snow on some of the mountains of South America and volcanoes such as Popocatepetl in the south of Mexico, but it isn't a major part of the local climate.

things which are not of worth unto the children of men.

This information is of more use than some things which are found in there. It isn't an "unnecessary detail", it is a pretty major detail. It suggests that it took place south of where JS lived. It doesn't mean it occurred outside the modern US necessarily, but the northern states and southern Canada have brutal winters.

As others have noted, there is some stuff in the Book of Mormon which is repetitious and some which even pads it out. Mark Twain once said, if they got rid of all the instances of "it came to pass" in there, it would become the "Pamphlet of Mormon". That's a bit facetious, but not entirely untrue.

whirlwinds don't occur in most of Mesoamerica and South America

A whirlwind is not necessarily a tornado. But you would be surprised where both turn up though. We always hear of them in the US Mid-west of the States, but they are also quite common in the Ukraine and Russia, and places like Australia. There was one in the Czech Republic in June which killed five people. You don't tend to associate Central Europe with them, but they do occur there.

Orange areas are tornado zones. They can also occur outside these zones. The mid west is bad, but it is not the only area.

[MikeMaillet]

I agree that the lamanites are the Indian tribes of North America as well as the Polynesians.

The irrefutable evidence is the Joseph Smith letter and haplo group X DNA. That is not even including the fact that the hill cummorah is in New York and all of the archeological and linguistics evidence that Wayne May and others have found.




I don't see how it can even be disputed

I'm just beginning to read this interesting thread and as for the Polynesians, I've always felt that they were indeed of the blood of Israel. Although I know nothing of Polynesian history, I have worked with many of them and this was the feeling I usually had when interacting with them. I always felt that there was something special about them.

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

[MikeMaillet]

I admit to having skipped some of the responses in the thread but who's to say that people in South America did not have their own encounter with Christ and maybe we have yet to find their written record? Other sheep... not of this fold.

I do know that native North Americans were almost wiped out by the Gentiles and this agrees with the Book of Mormon.

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

[Niemand]

I agree that the lamanites are the Indian tribes of North America as well as the Polynesians.

The irrefutable evidence is the Joseph Smith letter and haplo group X DNA. That is not even including the fact that the hill cummorah is in New York and all of the archeological and linguistics evidence that Wayne May and others have found.




I don't see how it can even be disputed

I'm just beginning to read this interesting thread and as for the Polynesians, I've always felt that they were indeed of the blood of Israel. Although I know nothing of Polynesian history, I have worked with many of them and this was the feeling I usually had when interacting with them. I always felt that there was something special about them.

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

Polynesians have a checkered history, involving a lot of brutality and cannibalism.

I think they are a good example of the civilising influence of Christianity. They rapidly gave up the cannibalism and violence after Christianity came in (with the exception of the Maori perhaps) and are often now some of the nicest people you can meet.

A long while back, I noticed that the Polynesian languages have a lot of resemblences to European and even Middle Eastern languages.

Here are some Maori numbers. I've put some European words which look similar in brackets:
2 - rua (duo, twa, dva, dà)
3 - toru (tri, three)
4 - whā (four, quattuor, pedwar), Hebrew "arba"
7 - whitu (seachd, shest'), Hebrew "shishit" (shesh)
10 - tekau (deka, dix, deich, decem)

[gruden2.0]

I agree that the lamanites are the Indian tribes of North America as well as the Polynesians.

The irrefutable evidence is the Joseph Smith letter and haplo group X DNA. That is not even including the fact that the hill cummorah is in New York and all of the archeological and linguistics evidence that Wayne May and others have found.




I don't see how it can even be disputed

People can dispute all they want, and I'm fine with that.

Look at the map where the color is, particularly in North America. That's where most of the remnant of the 10 Tribes are coming from that are led to the places of gathering in the last days. One of the groups I was made aware of come from the dark yellow area.

[BuriedTartaria]

This is a totally false equivalence. There IS a MASSIVE coverup effort to destroy all evidence of any significant civilization in America pre-Columbus (including evidence of giants). You can watch this video for more info: Jim Viera - Research of Giant Skeletons / Remains

You can also ruminate on the fact that the founders of the Smithsonian had fathers who were preachers from Palmyra that detested Joseph Smith:

• https://tldrify.com/169h
• https://bookofmormonevidence.org/native ... sely-lost/
• https://bookofmormonevidence.org/john-w ... _of_Mormon

There has also been a massive coverup to hide and destroy evidence proving the authenticity of the Bible... and a massive coverup to hide the history of the communist takeover of America... and a massive coverup to hide cures for cancer... and a massive coverup to hide true science and the nature of our spirits (D&C 131:7)... in short, many things have been foisted upon us and hidden from our understanding because of the "evil designs which exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days!!!" (D&C 89:4).

Just because sometimes there really is no evidence for certain falsehoods (e.g., "masks save lives", "Russia hacked the election", "Trump raped dozens of women", etc.), doesn't mean that there is no such thing as a conspiracy to destroy evidence and cover things up!!! There are definitely conspiracies to cover things up, all over the place in the modern world today!!! Joseph Smith said: "I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief." (TPJS 374)

You speak the truth. To all believers in the Book of Mormon, many of you are behind on the awakening occurring in non-Mormon alternative thinking circles. There is an enthusiastic, growing movement present that believes there was some sort or multiple civilizations on the North American lands at some point in time before the European Settlers of the 1700s arrived. This movement believes some (many?) of these civilizations had buildings they made repurposed for and claimed as being made by United States settlers

This movement doesn’t attribute these hints of a dead society as being related to the Book of Mormon but more and more people are thinking there was at least one intelligent, developed civilization on the US lands that made elaborate cities and buildings before the birth and settlement of the United States

[jreuben]

@BuriedTartaria indeed this is true. While I don't subscribe to some of what is being said in regards to the older buildings insomuch that I believe they were decimated/obliterated instead of being repurposed. I do believe there were fantastic structures, but there was a powerful initiative to destroy all of these things for various shrouded reasons.

Your nickname is interesting. Where did you come up with it from?

[BuriedTartaria]

@BuriedTartaria indeed this is true. While I don't subscribe to some of what is being said in regards to the older buildings insomuch that I believe they were decimated/obliterated instead of being repurposed.

That’s totally fair. I dont agree with all their conclusions, like you. I’m just adding to your voice that many people feel there have been other civilizations present and then destroyed in the lands of the United States

My username: Tartaria has become a generic word referencing any civilization that may have been destroyed and had their history erased from academic history. That reminds me a lot of the message of the Book of Mormon: two nations utterly destroyed and buried from history


I think destroyed civilizations are whispering from the dust so that’s how I got my username. Thanks for some awesome material in this thread. I’m a big believer of a United States setting for the Book of Mormon.

[jreuben]

Thanks for sharing @BuriedTartaria, I was thinking of what is here when asking that about your nickname: https://mindreach.net/search?q=tartaria

[Subcomandante]

There was a lot of destruction in Mexico and Peru among other places when the Spaniards arrived in those places.

Yet, the evidence was not totally destroyed.

Pretty much EVERY artifact found in North America has been proven to be forgeries up to now. The Hebrew used is wrong and from the wrong time period, no serious study has been made on the linguistics (no, "Indian" languages do not count, you need to really focus on one group like "Algonquin" for example and compare it to Semitic, like a renowned linguist with several years of experience has been able to do with the Uto-Aztecan languages and Semitic.

[bjornagain]

The Hispanic people are NOT those identified with the Lamanites to whom the Book of Mormon was written (see the preface). The Hispanic people are instead reckoned as part of the GENTILES, as can be clearly seen from 1 Nephi 13-14. The Gentiles were the ones who WENT FORTH from the Mother of Harlots (i.e., the Catholic Church).

I tend to agree with you about this.

But, if the hispanic/latino peoples of central and south America are not descended from the Lamanites, then who are they? Maybe Wayne May has a theory about this, I'm not sure.

[larsenb]

Not really. Dr. John Lund did an exhaustive study showing the high probability that Joseph authored the two 1842 Times and Seasons editorials that mentioned Zarahemla and the narrow neck of land being in the region of Guatemala.

John Lund's study is very flawed. As stated in one of my originally-referenced articles:

Two stylometry studies by LDS scholars have purported to prove Joseph was the author (or co-author) of the Times and Seasons articles. However, both studies limited their examination to only three possible authors: Joseph Smith, Wilford Woodruff, and John Taylor. Of the three, Joseph’s writing style was closest to the actual author’s, but not by much. The Mesoamerican articles were linguistic outliers. The results of the study showed it was unlikely that any of the three candidates they tested were the actual author. In fact, these studies essentially proved Joseph could not have been the author. (That analysis is too detailed for this article, but it is included in the book, “The Lost City of Zarahemla,” which discusses the historical facts in depth.)

Jonathan Neville's study is here, which thoroughly debunks Lund's claims and shows the reality behind those two articles: https://bookofmormonevidence.org/bookst ... emla-book/

I find it quite intriguing that Lund's study has received wide marketing by the Deseret News (which has been a communist propaganda outlet for some time now). Clearly the Church has a vested interest and an agenda in keeping people snowed with the Mesoamerican model, because they know that if it goes out the window, then many Hispanic converts will turn away, and false prophets like Gerrit W. Gong will be exposed...

I've yet to see any rebuttal of Lund's work that has any substance or credibility.

I'm sure you'll dismiss Jonathan Neville's study because you simply dislike his conclusions, but it's absolutely valid and credible despite your supercilious prejudices. The Book of Mormon itself came from an undistinguished, poor farm boy from upstate New York—which certainly caused many people to reject his testimony out-of-hand, as they couldn't put their trust in a boy whose claims had such (seemingly) little "substance or credibility."

This whole topic surfaces like clock-work on LDSFF, and has been hashed over endlessly.

So do many other topics... your point being?

Your Neville article doesn’t quite do what you think it does regarding the authorship of the T&S articles/editorials in question. It makes a lot of assertions and claims but no convincing backup of these claims are evident.

Joseph did put his signature to the editions of the T&S articles describing Zarahemla and the Narrow Neck of Land as being in the regions of Guatemala. This means he took responsibility for the contents of these issues. He was also the chief editor, which strongly implies he took responsibility for any editorials appearing in these issues.

Joseph was also careful to correct anything attributed to him, as Lund demonstrates. If he was so opposed to the assertions of these editorials, it makes no sense that he would neglect to correct such allegedly erroneous claims.

Oddly enough, your article doesn’t specifically cite the Lund analysis, and if he is actually referring to Lund, makes erroneous statements about what Lund accomplished. Lund showed that the editorial writing style was very close to JS’s style and showed with great certainty that JS was the author of these editorials/artlcles. Neville needs to actually critique Lund’s stylometric analysis and show where it is off base. Anything less than this, is simply arm-waving.

Now, if you think he or someone else did this in some other publication, this is what you should be quoting from.

Neville also makes the erroneous statement that Lund only dealt with Joseph Smith, Wilford Woodruff, and John Taylor as potential authors of the editorials/articles in question. In fact, Lund also considered W.W. Phelps and Ebenezer Robinson as potential authors, but eliminated them for stylometric reasons that placed them very far from the style of these editorials.

Lund also disproves the article’s contention that “someone other than Joseph Smith was actually editing and publishing the Times and Seasons in August and September of 1842”. He does this on pages 164-165 of his book, and in his Addendum 9 of his book: Joseph Smith and the Geography of the Book of Mormon, by citing the daily log of JS between March 1 and October 11 of 1842.

And Benjamin Winchester?? The section of Neville’s article dealing with him is loaded with unverifiable assumptions. Now if the Times and Seasons articles linking Mesoamerica w/the book of Mormon were earlier printed under the pseudonyms of ‘Q’ and “A Lover of Truth” in a Boston newspaper, a simple test would be to locate these articles (if possible) and compare them to the T&S editorials/articles. One other thing that could be done, is to use the stylometric criteria Lund used to show the similarity of the T&S editorials/articles to Winchester’s articles in his publication, the Gospel Reflector.

Otherwise, and sorry, but not much to see in your cited article.

[larsenb]

The obvious problem with this reasoning is that Joseph was only referring to the Lamanites in this particular area. To make your claim stick, you would have to show where JS also said something like: "This is the only place you will find Lamanites" or "Lamanites are not present in any other location in either North or South America or in the southern portion of North America, AKA Central America or Mesoamerican. Can you find such statements? Nope.

He didn't need to make such qualifications—he just thought it was common sense.

Why did Joseph quit working at the Times and Seasons in a fury after his brother and Benjamin Winchester ran their false story?

Within days of the unauthorized release of the three Mesoamerican articles in the fall of 1842, Joseph fired William from The Wasp, had Winchester removed as Branch President in Philadelphia, and resigned as Editor of the Times and Seasons himself.

(source)

This shows quite conclusively, that he did NOT approve the attempts of those who were trying to say that the Lamanites were to be found in Mesoamerica!

"He just thought it was common sense". Wow, now there's an argument. So easy to get into someone's private thoughts and mind and discern what they thought about something. Not.

Now, if your contention that JS "fired William Smith from the Wasp" and removed BW from his position as Branch Pres. in Philly, in a fury because of the Mesoamerican articles published in the T&S on 15 Sep and 1 Oct 1842, is true, why would he, as a responsible editor of the T&S, let such erroneous articles stand? Makes no sense.

Can you supply actual written text and dates for these actions JS took, to include why he did them. I'm talking about direct citations from those times, not someone's speculations. I'll be waiting to see what you come up with, other than a link.

[larsenb]

. . . . A whirlwind is not necessarily a tornado. But you would be surprised where both turn up though. We always hear of them in the US Mid-west of the States, but they are also quite common in the Ukraine and Russia, and places like Australia. There was one in the Czech Republic in June which killed five people. You don't tend to associate Central Europe with them, but they do occur there.

Orange areas are tornado zones. They can also occur outside these zones. The mid west is bad, but it is not the only area.

Don't forget that the whirl winds/tornados occurred during a time of massive climatological/geological events (volcanos/earthquakes highly probable), events that could have massive inflowing of air currents to the area in question, and could even coincide with hurricanes/cyclones.

[Niemand]

But, if the hispanic/latino peoples of central and south America are not descended from the Lamanites, then who are they? Maybe Wayne May has a theory about this, I'm not sure.

There are obvious connections between some of the people of Central America and some natives of the US & Canada. On one level, that can be down to physical appearance, but there are also cultural and linguistic connections.

The Apache are related to the Aztecs and the Navajo are connected to tribes down there.

Even the Mound Builders may have a connection to Mesoamerica. There are similarities between some of the platforms and the Mesoamerican pyramids.

Then there is the question of the Thunderbird, and whether this links into the Feather Serpent (Quetzalcoatl, Kukulkan, Awanyu etc) and Viracocha in South America.

[Niemand]

Pardon me for quoting Wikipedia (I try and avoid it as it is all search engines point you to now)... but the article on Viracocha, the Inca deity is interesting. It does come with the usual caveats, "yes buts" and so on, but there are some apparent similarities between Viracocha and the godhead.

What follows is all quotation from Wikipedia. I've underlined sections of interest.

---

Viracocha was one of the most important deities in the Inca pantheon and seen as the creator of all things, or the substance from which all things are created, and intimately associated with the sea.[2]

Viracocha created the universe, sun, moon, and stars, time (by commanding the sun to move over the sky)[3] and civilization itself. Viracocha was worshipped as god of the sun and of storms. He was represented as wearing the sun for a crown, with thunderbolts in his hands, and tears descending from his eyes as rain. In accord with the Inca cosmogony, Viracocha may be assimilated to Saturn, the "old god", the maker of time or "deus faber" (god maker), corresponding to the visible planet with the longest revolution around the sun.[

According to a myth recorded by Juan de Betanzos,[5] Viracocha rose from Lake Titicaca (or sometimes the cave of Paqariq Tampu) during the time of darkness to bring forth light.[6] He made the sun, moon, and the stars. He made mankind by breathing into stones, but his first creation were brainless giants that displeased him. So, he destroyed them with a flood and made humans, beings who were better than the giants, from smaller stones. After creating them, they were scattered all over the world.[7]

Viracocha eventually disappeared across the Pacific Ocean (by walking on the water), and never returned. He wandered the earth disguised as a beggar, teaching his new creations the basics of civilization, as well as working numerous miracles. Many, however, refused to follow his teachings, devolving into warfare and delinquency; Viracocha wept when he saw the plight of the creatures he had created.[7] It was thought that Viracocha would re-appear in times of trouble. Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa wrote that Viracocha was described as "a man of medium height, white and dressed in a white robe like an alb secured round the waist and that he carried a staff and a book in his hands."

In one legend he had one son, Inti, and two daughters, Mama Killa and Pachamama. In this legend, he destroyed the people around Lake Titicaca with a Great Flood called Unu Pachakuti, lasting 60 days and 60 nights, saving two to bring civilization to the rest of the world. These two beings are Manco Cápac, the son of Inti (sometimes taken as the son of Viracocha), which name means "splendid foundation", and Mama Uqllu, which means "mother fertility". These two founded the Inca civilization carrying a golden staff, called 'tapac-yauri'. In another legend, he fathered the first eight civilized human beings. In some stories, he has a wife called Mama Qucha.

In another legend,[9] Viracocha had two sons, Imahmana Viracocha and Tocapo Viracocha. After the Great Flood and the Creation, Viracocha sent his sons to visit the tribes to the northeast and northwest to determine if they still obeyed his commandments. Viracocha traveled North. During their journey, Imaymana and Tocapo gave names to all the trees, flowers, fruits, and herbs. They also taught the tribes which of these were edible, which had medicinal properties, and which were poisonous. Eventually, Viracocha, Tocapo and Imahmana arrived at Cusco (in modern-day Peru) and the Pacific seacoast, where they walked away across the water until they disappeared. The word "Viracocha" literally means "Sea Foam."[9]

Tiqsi Huiracocha may have several meanings. In the Quechuan languages, tiqsi means foundation or base, wira means fat, and qucha means lake, sea, or reservoir.[10] Viracocha's many epithets include great, all knowing, powerful, etc. Some people state that Wiraqucha could mean "Fat (or foam) of the sea".[2][11]

-------

The first Spanish chroniclers from the 16th century made no mention of any identification with Viracocha. The first to do so was Pedro Cieza de León in 1553.[13] Similar accounts by Spanish chroniclers (e.g. Juan de Betanzos) describe Viracocha as a "white god", often with a beard.[14] The whiteness of Viracocha is however not mentioned in the native authentic legends of the Incas and most modern scholars therefore had considered the "white god" story to be a post-conquest Spanish invention.[15]

----

Spanish scholars and chroniclers provide many insights regarding the identity of Viracocha.

Bartolomé de las Casas states that viracocha means "creator of all things"[24]
Juan de Betanzos confirms the above in saying that "We may say that Viracocha is God"[25]
Polo, Sarmiento de Gamboa, Blas Valera and Acosta all reference Viracocha as a creator[24]
Guamán Poma, an indigenous chronicler, considers the term "viracocha" to be equivalent to "creator"[26]
Other authors such as Garcilaso de la Vega,[16] Betanzos, and Pedro de Quiroga[27] hold that Viracocha wasn't the original name of "God" for the Incas.[24] According to Garcilaso, the name of God in the language of the Incas was "Pachamama", not Viracocha.[28] Nevertheless, Spanish interpreters generally attributed the identity of supreme creator to Viracocha during the initial years of colonization.[24]

According to Antoinette Molinié Fioravanti, Spanish clergymen began to equate the "God of creation" with Viracocha in an attempt to combat the polytheistic worship of the Incas, which in their view was idolatrous. The existence of a "supreme God" in the Incan view was used by the clergy to demonstrate that the revelation of a single, universal God was "natural" for the human condition.[29]

Christian scholars such as Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas held that philosophers of all nations had learned of the existence of a supreme God.[30] Nevertheless, medieval European philosophy believed that without the aid of revelation, no one could fully understand such great truths such as the nature of "The Trinity".[24]

The decision to use the term "God" in place of "Viracocha" is seen as the first step in the evangelization of the Incas.[24] The reasoning behind this strategy includes the fact that it was likely difficult to explain the Christian idea of "God" to the Incas, who failed to understand the concept. In addition, replacing reference to Viracocha with "God" facilitated the substitution of the local concept of divinity with Christian theology.[24]

[Cruiserdude]

Pardon me for quoting Wikipedia (I try and avoid it as it is all search engines point you to now)... but the article on Viracocha, the Inca deiry is interesting. It does come with the usual caveats, "yes buts" and so on, but there are some apparent similarities between Viracocha and the godhead.

What follows is all quotation from Wikipedia. I've underlined sections of interest.

---

Viracocha was one of the most important deities in the Inca pantheon and seen as the creator of all things, or the substance from which all things are created, and intimately associated with the sea.[2]

Viracocha created the universe, sun, moon, and stars, time (by commanding the sun to move over the sky)[3] and civilization itself. Viracocha was worshipped as god of the sun and of storms. He was represented as wearing the sun for a crown, with thunderbolts in his hands, and tears descending from his eyes as rain. In accord with the Inca cosmogony, Viracocha may be assimilated to Saturn, the "old god", the maker of time or "deus faber" (god maker), corresponding to the visible planet with the longest revolution around the sun.[

According to a myth recorded by Juan de Betanzos,[5] Viracocha rose from Lake Titicaca (or sometimes the cave of Paqariq Tampu) during the time of darkness to bring forth light.[6] He made the sun, moon, and the stars. He made mankind by breathing into stones, but his first creation were brainless giants that displeased him. So, he destroyed them with a flood and made humans, beings who were better than the giants, from smaller stones. After creating them, they were scattered all over the world.[7]

Viracocha eventually disappeared across the Pacific Ocean (by walking on the water), and never returned. He wandered the earth disguised as a beggar, teaching his new creations the basics of civilization, as well as working numerous miracles. Many, however, refused to follow his teachings, devolving into warfare and delinquency; Viracocha wept when he saw the plight of the creatures he had created.[7] It was thought that Viracocha would re-appear in times of trouble. Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa wrote that Viracocha was described as "a man of medium height, white and dressed in a white robe like an alb secured round the waist and that he carried a staff and a book in his hands."

In one legend he had one son, Inti, and two daughters, Mama Killa and Pachamama. In this legend, he destroyed the people around Lake Titicaca with a Great Flood called Unu Pachakuti, lasting 60 days and 60 nights, saving two to bring civilization to the rest of the world. These two beings are Manco Cápac, the son of Inti (sometimes taken as the son of Viracocha), which name means "splendid foundation", and Mama Uqllu, which means "mother fertility". These two founded the Inca civilization carrying a golden staff, called 'tapac-yauri'. In another legend, he fathered the first eight civilized human beings. In some stories, he has a wife called Mama Qucha.

In another legend,[9] Viracocha had two sons, Imahmana Viracocha and Tocapo Viracocha. After the Great Flood and the Creation, Viracocha sent his sons to visit the tribes to the northeast and northwest to determine if they still obeyed his commandments. Viracocha traveled North. During their journey, Imaymana and Tocapo gave names to all the trees, flowers, fruits, and herbs. They also taught the tribes which of these were edible, which had medicinal properties, and which were poisonous. Eventually, Viracocha, Tocapo and Imahmana arrived at Cusco (in modern-day Peru) and the Pacific seacoast, where they walked away across the water until they disappeared. The word "Viracocha" literally means "Sea Foam."[9]

Tiqsi Huiracocha may have several meanings. In the Quechuan languages, tiqsi means foundation or base, wira means fat, and qucha means lake, sea, or reservoir.[10] Viracocha's many epithets include great, all knowing, powerful, etc. Some people state that Wiraqucha could mean "Fat (or foam) of the sea".[2][11]

-------

The first Spanish chroniclers from the 16th century made no mention of any identification with Viracocha. The first to do so was Pedro Cieza de León in 1553.[13] Similar accounts by Spanish chroniclers (e.g. Juan de Betanzos) describe Viracocha as a "white god", often with a beard.[14] The whiteness of Viracocha is however not mentioned in the native authentic legends of the Incas and most modern scholars therefore had considered the "white god" story to be a post-conquest Spanish invention.[15]

----

Spanish scholars and chroniclers provide many insights regarding the identity of Viracocha.

Bartolomé de las Casas states that viracocha means "creator of all things"[24]
Juan de Betanzos confirms the above in saying that "We may say that Viracocha is God"[25]
Polo, Sarmiento de Gamboa, Blas Valera and Acosta all reference Viracocha as a creator[24]
Guamán Poma, an indigenous chronicler, considers the term "viracocha" to be equivalent to "creator"[26]
Other authors such as Garcilaso de la Vega,[16] Betanzos, and Pedro de Quiroga[27] hold that Viracocha wasn't the original name of "God" for the Incas.[24] According to Garcilaso, the name of God in the language of the Incas was "Pachamama", not Viracocha.[28] Nevertheless, Spanish interpreters generally attributed the identity of supreme creator to Viracocha during the initial years of colonization.[24]

According to Antoinette Molinié Fioravanti, Spanish clergymen began to equate the "God of creation" with Viracocha in an attempt to combat the polytheistic worship of the Incas, which in their view was idolatrous. The existence of a "supreme God" in the Incan view was used by the clergy to demonstrate that the revelation of a single, universal God was "natural" for the human condition.[29]

Christian scholars such as Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas held that philosophers of all nations had learned of the existence of a supreme God.[30] Nevertheless, medieval European philosophy believed that without the aid of revelation, no one could fully understand such great truths such as the nature of "The Trinity".[24]

The decision to use the term "God" in place of "Viracocha" is seen as the first step in the evangelization of the Incas.[24] The reasoning behind this strategy includes the fact that it was likely difficult to explain the Christian idea of "God" to the Incas, who failed to understand the concept. In addition, replacing reference to Viracocha with "God" facilitated the substitution of the local concept of divinity with Christian theology.[24]

Holy Canolli, the similarities are huge! In my mind, it all testifies of the truth of the Atonement and of the plan of salvation. It's absolutely undeniable.

[Niemand]

Pardon me for quoting Wikipedia (I try and avoid it as it is all search engines point you to now)... but the article on Viracocha, the Inca deiry is interesting. It does come with the usual caveats, "yes buts" and so on, but there are some apparent similarities between Viracocha and the godhead.

What follows is all quotation from Wikipedia. I've underlined sections of interest.

---

Viracocha was one of the most important deities in the Inca pantheon and seen as the creator of all things, or the substance from which all things are created, and intimately associated with the sea.[2]

Viracocha created the universe, sun, moon, and stars, time (by commanding the sun to move over the sky)[3] and civilization itself. Viracocha was worshipped as god of the sun and of storms. He was represented as wearing the sun for a crown, with thunderbolts in his hands, and tears descending from his eyes as rain. In accord with the Inca cosmogony, Viracocha may be assimilated to Saturn, the "old god", the maker of time or "deus faber" (god maker), corresponding to the visible planet with the longest revolution around the sun.[

According to a myth recorded by Juan de Betanzos,[5] Viracocha rose from Lake Titicaca (or sometimes the cave of Paqariq Tampu) during the time of darkness to bring forth light.[6] He made the sun, moon, and the stars. He made mankind by breathing into stones, but his first creation were brainless giants that displeased him. So, he destroyed them with a flood and made humans, beings who were better than the giants, from smaller stones. After creating them, they were scattered all over the world.[7]

Viracocha eventually disappeared across the Pacific Ocean (by walking on the water), and never returned. He wandered the earth disguised as a beggar, teaching his new creations the basics of civilization, as well as working numerous miracles. Many, however, refused to follow his teachings, devolving into warfare and delinquency; Viracocha wept when he saw the plight of the creatures he had created.[7] It was thought that Viracocha would re-appear in times of trouble. Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa wrote that Viracocha was described as "a man of medium height, white and dressed in a white robe like an alb secured round the waist and that he carried a staff and a book in his hands."

In one legend he had one son, Inti, and two daughters, Mama Killa and Pachamama. In this legend, he destroyed the people around Lake Titicaca with a Great Flood called Unu Pachakuti, lasting 60 days and 60 nights, saving two to bring civilization to the rest of the world. These two beings are Manco Cápac, the son of Inti (sometimes taken as the son of Viracocha), which name means "splendid foundation", and Mama Uqllu, which means "mother fertility". These two founded the Inca civilization carrying a golden staff, called 'tapac-yauri'. In another legend, he fathered the first eight civilized human beings. In some stories, he has a wife called Mama Qucha.

In another legend,[9] Viracocha had two sons, Imahmana Viracocha and Tocapo Viracocha. After the Great Flood and the Creation, Viracocha sent his sons to visit the tribes to the northeast and northwest to determine if they still obeyed his commandments. Viracocha traveled North. During their journey, Imaymana and Tocapo gave names to all the trees, flowers, fruits, and herbs. They also taught the tribes which of these were edible, which had medicinal properties, and which were poisonous. Eventually, Viracocha, Tocapo and Imahmana arrived at Cusco (in modern-day Peru) and the Pacific seacoast, where they walked away across the water until they disappeared. The word "Viracocha" literally means "Sea Foam."[9]

Tiqsi Huiracocha may have several meanings. In the Quechuan languages, tiqsi means foundation or base, wira means fat, and qucha means lake, sea, or reservoir.[10] Viracocha's many epithets include great, all knowing, powerful, etc. Some people state that Wiraqucha could mean "Fat (or foam) of the sea".[2][11]

-------

The first Spanish chroniclers from the 16th century made no mention of any identification with Viracocha. The first to do so was Pedro Cieza de León in 1553.[13] Similar accounts by Spanish chroniclers (e.g. Juan de Betanzos) describe Viracocha as a "white god", often with a beard.[14] The whiteness of Viracocha is however not mentioned in the native authentic legends of the Incas and most modern scholars therefore had considered the "white god" story to be a post-conquest Spanish invention.[15]

----

Spanish scholars and chroniclers provide many insights regarding the identity of Viracocha.

Bartolomé de las Casas states that viracocha means "creator of all things"[24]
Juan de Betanzos confirms the above in saying that "We may say that Viracocha is God"[25]
Polo, Sarmiento de Gamboa, Blas Valera and Acosta all reference Viracocha as a creator[24]
Guamán Poma, an indigenous chronicler, considers the term "viracocha" to be equivalent to "creator"[26]
Other authors such as Garcilaso de la Vega,[16] Betanzos, and Pedro de Quiroga[27] hold that Viracocha wasn't the original name of "God" for the Incas.[24] According to Garcilaso, the name of God in the language of the Incas was "Pachamama", not Viracocha.[28] Nevertheless, Spanish interpreters generally attributed the identity of supreme creator to Viracocha during the initial years of colonization.[24]

According to Antoinette Molinié Fioravanti, Spanish clergymen began to equate the "God of creation" with Viracocha in an attempt to combat the polytheistic worship of the Incas, which in their view was idolatrous. The existence of a "supreme God" in the Incan view was used by the clergy to demonstrate that the revelation of a single, universal God was "natural" for the human condition.[29]

Christian scholars such as Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas held that philosophers of all nations had learned of the existence of a supreme God.[30] Nevertheless, medieval European philosophy believed that without the aid of revelation, no one could fully understand such great truths such as the nature of "The Trinity".[24]

The decision to use the term "God" in place of "Viracocha" is seen as the first step in the evangelization of the Incas.[24] The reasoning behind this strategy includes the fact that it was likely difficult to explain the Christian idea of "God" to the Incas, who failed to understand the concept. In addition, replacing reference to Viracocha with "God" facilitated the substitution of the local concept of divinity with Christian theology.[24]

Holy Canolli, the similarities are huge! In my mind, it all testifies of the truth of the Atonement and of the plan of salvation. It's absolutely undeniable.

It is all mixed in with pagan corruptions/distortions of course, but there is enough of a core there to go on. Sceptics say that it's all down to the Catholic Spanish invaders.

I don't buy it. The idea of a Creator God who dominates the rest can be found in much of the world. It's usually (but not always) a sky god. Even the Hindus have their Brahma. The flood can be found in practically every culture around the world. Here you have someone who can walk on water (and Viracocha's name appears to refer to that), with an only begotten son, the flood, missions and all the rest.

In a lot of cases, ungodly heathen elements creep in, e.g. Mesoamericans added human sacrifice to their temples, and Babylonians prostitution, but you can even see a core there. For example, here Viracocha creates people out of rocks, not mud... and the giants are like the Nephilim killed by the flood.

I always find Wikipedia amusing, because it often goes out of its way to debunk something and then goes and proves it. The Viracocha article does this. (So does the Hunter Biden article, it says his foreign links are a debunked conspiracy theory, and then goes and lists them.)

[1775peasant]

Pardon me for quoting Wikipedia (I try and avoid it as it is all search engines point you to now)... but the article on Viracocha, the Inca deity is interesting. It does come with the usual caveats, "yes buts" and so on, but there are some apparent similarities between Viracocha and the godhead.

What follows is all quotation from Wikipedia. I've underlined sections of interest.

---

Viracocha was one of the most important deities in the Inca pantheon and seen as the creator of all things, or the substance from which all things are created, and intimately associated with the sea.[2]

Viracocha created the universe, sun, moon, and stars, time (by commanding the sun to move over the sky)[3] and civilization itself. Viracocha was worshipped as god of the sun and of storms. He was represented as wearing the sun for a crown, with thunderbolts in his hands, and tears descending from his eyes as rain. In accord with the Inca cosmogony, Viracocha may be assimilated to Saturn, the "old god", the maker of time or "deus faber" (god maker), corresponding to the visible planet with the longest revolution around the sun.[

According to a myth recorded by Juan de Betanzos,[5] Viracocha rose from Lake Titicaca (or sometimes the cave of Paqariq Tampu) during the time of darkness to bring forth light.[6] He made the sun, moon, and the stars. He made mankind by breathing into stones, but his first creation were brainless giants that displeased him. So, he destroyed them with a flood and made humans, beings who were better than the giants, from smaller stones. After creating them, they were scattered all over the world.[7]

Viracocha eventually disappeared across the Pacific Ocean (by walking on the water), and never returned. He wandered the earth disguised as a beggar, teaching his new creations the basics of civilization, as well as working numerous miracles. Many, however, refused to follow his teachings, devolving into warfare and delinquency; Viracocha wept when he saw the plight of the creatures he had created.[7] It was thought that Viracocha would re-appear in times of trouble. Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa wrote that Viracocha was described as "a man of medium height, white and dressed in a white robe like an alb secured round the waist and that he carried a staff and a book in his hands."

In one legend he had one son, Inti, and two daughters, Mama Killa and Pachamama. In this legend, he destroyed the people around Lake Titicaca with a Great Flood called Unu Pachakuti, lasting 60 days and 60 nights, saving two to bring civilization to the rest of the world. These two beings are Manco Cápac, the son of Inti (sometimes taken as the son of Viracocha), which name means "splendid foundation", and Mama Uqllu, which means "mother fertility". These two founded the Inca civilization carrying a golden staff, called 'tapac-yauri'. In another legend, he fathered the first eight civilized human beings. In some stories, he has a wife called Mama Qucha.

In another legend,[9] Viracocha had two sons, Imahmana Viracocha and Tocapo Viracocha. After the Great Flood and the Creation, Viracocha sent his sons to visit the tribes to the northeast and northwest to determine if they still obeyed his commandments. Viracocha traveled North. During their journey, Imaymana and Tocapo gave names to all the trees, flowers, fruits, and herbs. They also taught the tribes which of these were edible, which had medicinal properties, and which were poisonous. Eventually, Viracocha, Tocapo and Imahmana arrived at Cusco (in modern-day Peru) and the Pacific seacoast, where they walked away across the water until they disappeared. The word "Viracocha" literally means "Sea Foam."[9]

Tiqsi Huiracocha may have several meanings. In the Quechuan languages, tiqsi means foundation or base, wira means fat, and qucha means lake, sea, or reservoir.[10] Viracocha's many epithets include great, all knowing, powerful, etc. Some people state that Wiraqucha could mean "Fat (or foam) of the sea".[2][11]

-------

The first Spanish chroniclers from the 16th century made no mention of any identification with Viracocha. The first to do so was Pedro Cieza de León in 1553.[13] Similar accounts by Spanish chroniclers (e.g. Juan de Betanzos) describe Viracocha as a "white god", often with a beard.[14] The whiteness of Viracocha is however not mentioned in the native authentic legends of the Incas and most modern scholars therefore had considered the "white god" story to be a post-conquest Spanish invention.[15]

----

Spanish scholars and chroniclers provide many insights regarding the identity of Viracocha.

Bartolomé de las Casas states that viracocha means "creator of all things"[24]
Juan de Betanzos confirms the above in saying that "We may say that Viracocha is God"[25]
Polo, Sarmiento de Gamboa, Blas Valera and Acosta all reference Viracocha as a creator[24]
Guamán Poma, an indigenous chronicler, considers the term "viracocha" to be equivalent to "creator"[26]
Other authors such as Garcilaso de la Vega,[16] Betanzos, and Pedro de Quiroga[27] hold that Viracocha wasn't the original name of "God" for the Incas.[24] According to Garcilaso, the name of God in the language of the Incas was "Pachamama", not Viracocha.[28] Nevertheless, Spanish interpreters generally attributed the identity of supreme creator to Viracocha during the initial years of colonization.[24]

According to Antoinette Molinié Fioravanti, Spanish clergymen began to equate the "God of creation" with Viracocha in an attempt to combat the polytheistic worship of the Incas, which in their view was idolatrous. The existence of a "supreme God" in the Incan view was used by the clergy to demonstrate that the revelation of a single, universal God was "natural" for the human condition.[29]

Christian scholars such as Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas held that philosophers of all nations had learned of the existence of a supreme God.[30] Nevertheless, medieval European philosophy believed that without the aid of revelation, no one could fully understand such great truths such as the nature of "The Trinity".[24]

The decision to use the term "God" in place of "Viracocha" is seen as the first step in the evangelization of the Incas.[24] The reasoning behind this strategy includes the fact that it was likely difficult to explain the Christian idea of "God" to the Incas, who failed to understand the concept. In addition, replacing reference to Viracocha with "God" facilitated the substitution of the local concept of divinity with Christian theology.[24]

Niemand, u may already have or read a book by David G Calderwood.....Voices from the Dust......

Brother Calderwood worked for the CIA in South America for quite a few years in the early 1970s, then if i recall correctly....he served a mission for the Church in Peru later in life.....he did a lot of history of the Spanish & Portuguese "chroniclers" of 1500-1650 A.D.........

i happened to be visiting Nauvoo in '13 and Bro Calderwood gave a fireside that i attended and bought the book.

i don't understand how even the BYU folks dismiss the dictation of Joseph Smith saying that Lehi's group landed at the 30th parallel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOIzSdBtPuc

[JSmith]

I agree that the lamanites are the Indian tribes of North America as well as the Polynesians.

The irrefutable evidence is the Joseph Smith letter and haplo group X DNA. That is not even including the fact that the hill cummorah is in New York and all of the archeological and linguistics evidence that Wayne May and others have found.




I don't see how it can even be disputed

It is easily disputed by many scholars and refuted.

Scholars who banked 100% of their credibility on mesoamerica without even bothering to read the Joseph Smith papers. Now these learned men's pride prevents them from acknowledging the truth.

Wayne May is a scholar BTW

No, May is a religious hobbiest.

He is not a published scholar, nothing he produces is peer-reviewed, he does not accept professional criticism that does not support his claims. he is a subject matter expert on speculation.

no historians, outside of the other LDS-Centric hobbyists he works with, take his work seriously, he is not cited as a source on any subject in any scholarly journals and he does not teach.

His ancient American magazine is a revisionist history document that is understood to be a joke. He uses it to create circular citations so he can continuously cite his own work under a different name.

The entire publication is filled with speculative content and poor research. It is not viewed as a scholarly journal, it is not even viewed as a reliable source for any form of reliable research.

He and Rod Meldrum have created quite a business for themselves selling people on ideas and speculation about church history which are unfounded and ultimately false while they cloak themselves in piety and purpose.

But, people are willing to pay for it. So they will continue to produce speculative garbage in the name of religious causes.

But, they are not schalors. they are bad amateur historians.



he is a religious-historical hobbyist.

[markharr]

No, May is a religious hobbiest.

He is not a published scholar, nothing he produces is peer-reviewed, he does not accept professional criticism that does not support his claims. he is a subject matter expert on speculation.

no historians, outside of the other LDS-Centric hobbyists he works with, take his work seriously, he is not cited as a source on any subject in any scholarly journals and he does not teach.

His ancient American magazine is a revisionist history document that is understood to be a joke. He uses it to create circular citations so he can continuously cite his own work under a different name.

The entire publication is filled with speculative content and poor research. It is not viewed as a scholarly journal, it is not even viewed as a reliable source for any form of reliable research.

He and Rod Meldrum have created quite a business for themselves selling people on ideas and speculation about church history which are unfounded and ultimately false while they cloak themselves in piety and purpose.

But, people are willing to pay for it. So they will continue to produce speculative garbage in the name of religious causes.

But, they are not schalors. they are bad amateur historians.



he is a religious-historical hobbyist.

If you can't refute the evidence, attack the person. Nothing new here from the Meso crowd.