Idaho Wind and Solar?

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JuneBug12000
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Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by JuneBug12000 »

We are looking to add wind and solar to our property here in southeast Idaho. Any recommendations?

Quetsilquatl
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by Quetsilquatl »

Actually, I’m writing an article about battery systems that I hope to publish to the public soon. I assume since you are using solar, you’ll want to store that energy somewhere.

Let me know if this helps:
First thing you need to consider for a battery system is whether you need the batteries to supply lots of energy in a short period of time, or if you will need to prolong your energy consumption over a longer time period. It could be that you have a more complex system where you will there will be different demands at various stages of the system, but knowing what you need where is the most important consideration.

Once you’ve figured this out, you can consider the main characteristics of batteries:
- Capacity: this is the charge (rated as Ah). A battery with more charge, will supply energy longer compared to a battery with less charge.
- Operating Voltage: This is a rating you must comply with or risk serious damage to your system or to your person. Voltage must match the rating of the load.
- Stored Energy and energy density: A ratio of energy over size or mass. Helps when the battery is in motion for example transportation.
- Current density and maximum current applicable: another ratio of electrical current per squared length unit.
- Cyclability: estimated number of times you can recharge your batteries.
- Calendar life-time: Shelf-life of the batteries without load. Energy is consumed whether you use it in your system or not.
- Self-discharge: An attribute that leads to the irreversible decrease of capacity of the battery. Especially pronounced in Ni-MH and Li-ion batteries.
- Temperature resistance: Working conditions of the battery. For example, Li-ion batteries perform drain faster at higher temperatures.

So what about specific technology in Idaho?

You have three categories: Lead-acid, NiCd, and Lithium-ion. Characteristics that are most important to you would be energy over mass, number of recharge cycles, and a how you plan on maintaining the batteries. You’ll want the system to be mostly hands-off, but those batteries will eventually be consumed, so knowing what to do with them is important.

Lead-acid seems to be preferred. I think it’s probably because of they are a very conservative choice; meaning they have a long running history and their costs and maintenance are predictable.

NiCd have a good reputation for maintainability. Price tend to trend higher than lead-acid.

Lithium-ion have come a long way in development. Safety used to be a major concern, but has improved dramatically. Fire is still a concern though. Upfront price is also higher. Finally, Li-ion batteries are very sensitive to heat.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by Robin Hood »

Makes sense.
When I was in Boise one summer a few years ago we had wall to wall sunshine all the time, and I only saw one house with solar panels on the roof.

We stayed with some friends and when we washed some clothes I strung up a line in the back yard so we could hang them out to dry. Our friends were astonished; they usually put everything straight into the dryer. It was so warm and dry outside that all our clothes, including denim jeans, were dry in 15 minutes.

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

I’m not sure you’ll have enough wind out here...

/sarc

JuneBug12000
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by JuneBug12000 »

Gadianton Slayer wrote: October 15th, 2021, 4:06 pm I’m not sure you’ll have enough wind out here...

/sarc
I didn't see /sarc at first and was like? What the heck? Is he kidding? LOL. Every time the wind starts I run around making sure we haven't left anything outside.

Neighbor's trampoline was blowing around the back field recently. I guess it was one time too many, they finally decided to trash it.

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

JuneBug12000 wrote: October 15th, 2021, 4:41 pm
Gadianton Slayer wrote: October 15th, 2021, 4:06 pm I’m not sure you’ll have enough wind out here...

/sarc
I didn't see /sarc at first and was like? What the heck? Is he kidding? LOL. Every time the wind starts I run around making sure we haven't left anything outside.

Neighbor's trampoline was blowing around the back field recently. I guess it was one time too many, they finally decided to trash it.
😂 stakes! They need more stakes! My uncle didn’t stake his canopy... found it trashed in his front yard. It’s exciting hehe...

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Fred
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by Fred »

Having lived off-grid for 20 of the last 25 years, I have helped many of my neighbors become energy independent. While wind is slightly cheaper than solar, it is not as dependable. You can be pretty sure the sun will rise every day. For cloudy days, or days when the wind does not blow, one needs a reserve. Deep cycle batteries are designed to cycle between dead and charged many times before failure. Typically 1000 times. If you run them dead every night, that is 3 year life span. If you keep them around 80% state of charge, they will last 20 years easily.

I wouldn't try to over think it. A home solar system is little more complicated than a flashlight. If the batteries are charged, the light works. So the goal is to keep the batteries charged. Whether by wind, solar, or your car's alternator in an emergency.

Solar panels produce Direct Current (DC) and household appliances use Alternating Current (AC). Batteries only store DC. So you use the solar panels to charge the battery bank. You use a charge controller to keep the batteries from being over charged. You use an inverter to convert the DC from the batteries to AC for your house. Those are the elements of a home solar system.

Efficiency is highest when the DC volts being converted to AC volts are similar. For instance, if you use 12 volt batteries the conversion to 120 VAC is ten times. Not efficient. Some power is lost to heat. Bad idea. But some people like it as they can charge the batteries with their car. Best to have an efficient system that does not need your car. 24 volt inverters are the same exact price as 12 volt inverters. Naturally the 24 volt version is more efficient. 48 volt inverters are coming down in price as are 96 volt inverters, but 24 is the cheapest for the money.

If you can get by with only lights and a laptop, you can probably get by with spending only $1000 total for your solar system. Heating and cooling with electricirt is a bad idea. Use propane for heat. Refrigeration can be done with a fridge/freezer from a used RV that runs on electricity or propane. Propane is cheap and easy to store.

Teancum
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by Teancum »

Quetsilquatl wrote: October 15th, 2021, 3:39 pm Actually, I’m writing an article about battery systems that I hope to publish to the public soon. I assume since you are using solar, you’ll want to store that energy somewhere.

Let me know if this helps:
First thing you need to consider for a battery system is whether you need the batteries to supply lots of energy in a short period of time, or if you will need to prolong your energy consumption over a longer time period. It could be that you have a more complex system where you will there will be different demands at various stages of the system, but knowing what you need where is the most important consideration.

Once you’ve figured this out, you can consider the main characteristics of batteries:
- Capacity: this is the charge (rated as Ah). A battery with more charge, will supply energy longer compared to a battery with less charge.
- Operating Voltage: This is a rating you must comply with or risk serious damage to your system or to your person. Voltage must match the rating of the load.
- Stored Energy and energy density: A ratio of energy over size or mass. Helps when the battery is in motion for example transportation.
- Current density and maximum current applicable: another ratio of electrical current per squared length unit.
- Cyclability: estimated number of times you can recharge your batteries.
- Calendar life-time: Shelf-life of the batteries without load. Energy is consumed whether you use it in your system or not.
- Self-discharge: An attribute that leads to the irreversible decrease of capacity of the battery. Especially pronounced in Ni-MH and Li-ion batteries.
- Temperature resistance: Working conditions of the battery. For example, Li-ion batteries perform drain faster at higher temperatures.

So what about specific technology in Idaho?

You have three categories: Lead-acid, NiCd, and Lithium-ion. Characteristics that are most important to you would be energy over mass, number of recharge cycles, and a how you plan on maintaining the batteries. You’ll want the system to be mostly hands-off, but those batteries will eventually be consumed, so knowing what to do with them is important.

Lead-acid seems to be preferred. I think it’s probably because of they are a very conservative choice; meaning they have a long running history and their costs and maintenance are predictable.

NiCd have a good reputation for maintainability. Price tend to trend higher than lead-acid.

Lithium-ion have come a long way in development. Safety used to be a major concern, but has improved dramatically. Fire is still a concern though. Upfront price is also higher. Finally, Li-ion batteries are very sensitive to heat.
There are many more systems than just the three that you have mentioned: Carbon-zinc, zinc-bromide, nickel-iron, iron-air, flow batteries etc ....

Even the https://hydrogenhouseproject.org/index.html converts solar power to house electricity through hydrogen storage, and then recombination.

JuneBug12000
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Posts: 2066

Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by JuneBug12000 »

Fred wrote: October 15th, 2021, 4:58 pm Having lived off-grid for 20 of the last 25 years, I have helped many of my neighbors become energy independent. While wind is slightly cheaper than solar, it is not as dependable. You can be pretty sure the sun will rise every day. For cloudy days, or days when the wind does not blow, one needs a reserve. Deep cycle batteries are designed to cycle between dead and charged many times before failure. Typically 1000 times. If you run them dead every night, that is 3 year life span. If you keep them around 80% state of charge, they will last 20 years easily.

I wouldn't try to over think it. A home solar system is little more complicated than a flashlight. If the batteries are charged, the light works. So the goal is to keep the batteries charged. Whether by wind, solar, or your car's alternator in an emergency.

Solar panels produce Direct Current (DC) and household appliances use Alternating Current (AC). Batteries only store DC. So you use the solar panels to charge the battery bank. You use a charge controller to keep the batteries from being over charged. You use an inverter to convert the DC from the batteries to AC for your house. Those are the elements of a home solar system.

Efficiency is highest when the DC volts being converted to AC volts are similar. For instance, if you use 12 volt batteries the conversion to 120 VAC is ten times. Not efficient. Some power is lost to heat. Bad idea. But some people like it as they can charge the batteries with their car. Best to have an efficient system that does not need your car. 24 volt inverters are the same exact price as 12 volt inverters. Naturally the 24 volt version is more efficient. 48 volt inverters are coming down in price as are 96 volt inverters, but 24 is the cheapest for the money.

If you can get by with only lights and a laptop, you can probably get by with spending only $1000 total for your solar system. Heating and cooling with electricirt is a bad idea. Use propane for heat. Refrigeration can be done with a fridge/freezer from a used RV that runs on electricity or propane. Propane is cheap and easy to store.
I appreciate your help Fred. :) I loved that you shared your story on another thread. I shared it with my husband and children to help inspire them. I'm still working on getting answers to your questions so we can be more independent. We are trying to figure out min/max needs and what we can change to lower those numbers. We also spent this week dealing with insurance for a flooded room and will spend a lot of time on that this week as well.

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Jason
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by Jason »

JuneBug12000 wrote: October 4th, 2021, 4:14 pm We are looking to add wind and solar to our property here in southeast Idaho. Any recommendations?
An acquaintance of mine - LDSPrepper who relocated from Texas to just south of me and likely north of you (Shelley, Idaho)... David told me during a visit to inspect his geothermal greenhouse...that in hindsight regarding resources he would pursue food and other survival items before he would tackle the energy side of things...and he's made the most dedicated effort regarding prepping from a normal person that I have so far personally witnessed in my life. I know of others who have done underground bunkers and all sorts of stuff but they had wealth far beyond my definition of normal - i.e. have to work a job to provide for family (less than $150k/yr). Versus the underground bunker dude who is now dead but was head of IHC for some time couple decades back and spent over a million prepping from 6X6 truck w/satellite gps to get him to underground bunker (and he died in a hospital bed)...another was Chicago executive who got divorced and had to sell the underground bunker in Colorado to split assets with wife.

Here is David's solar setup from the Houston days...
His top 10 list for 2022 via he and his wife that they posted couple days ago...
He's a big Mittleider fan...and the book is definitely worth the cost. Just know that when I priced it out a couple years ago (and construction material costs have only gone up)...it was about $100k to outfit an acre of ground. That would certainly produce a lot of food effectively and efficiently but that's quite the upfront cost...

And there are some holes in the system. Not hard to remedy but certainly some compromises and weaknesses.

He's very approachable though and I would recommend reaching out to him on the solar side. Several years ago he had gotten a source of solar panels and was selling them. I haven't kept up with him since then (he became very busy as a Bishop in college ward in Rexburg) but I know that he's always working on improvements and resources. Certainly would be helpful to you!

JuneBug12000
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by JuneBug12000 »

Jason wrote: October 17th, 2021, 8:55 pm
JuneBug12000 wrote: October 4th, 2021, 4:14 pm We are looking to add wind and solar to our property here in southeast Idaho. Any recommendations?
An acquaintance of mine - LDSPrepper who relocated from Texas to just south of me and likely north of you (Shelley, Idaho)... David told me during a visit to inspect his geothermal greenhouse...that in hindsight regarding resources he would pursue food and other survival items before he would tackle the energy side of things...and he's made the most dedicated effort regarding prepping from a normal person that I have so far personally witnessed in my life. I know of others who have done underground bunkers and all sorts of stuff but they had wealth far beyond my definition of normal - i.e. have to work a job to provide for family (less than $150k/yr). Versus the underground bunker dude who is now dead but was head of IHC for some time couple decades back and spent over a million prepping from 6X6 truck w/satellite gps to get him to underground bunker (and he died in a hospital bed)...another was Chicago executive who got divorced and had to sell the underground bunker in Colorado to split assets with wife.

Here is David's solar setup from the Houston days...
His top 10 list for 2022 via he and his wife that they posted couple days ago...
He's a big Mittleider fan...and the book is definitely worth the cost. Just know that when I priced it out a couple years ago (and construction material costs have only gone up)...it was about $100k to outfit an acre of ground. That would certainly produce a lot of food effectively and efficiently but that's quite the upfront cost...

And there are some holes in the system. Not hard to remedy but certainly some compromises and weaknesses.

He's very approachable though and I would recommend reaching out to him on the solar side. Several years ago he had gotten a source of solar panels and was selling them. I haven't kept up with him since then (he became very busy as a Bishop in college ward in Rexburg) but I know that he's always working on improvements and resources. Certainly would be helpful to you!
Thank you for the links. I am watching David's videos and they are great.

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mudflap
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by mudflap »

I don't know a thing about solar, but some friends on the log home builders group do - they are recommending nickel - iron batteries - expensive but they never need to be replaced if you maintain them:

https://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery

Oh, and the guy sending me 24 solar panels for only the cost of shipping - they arrive tomorrow! yay! stick 'em in the storage shed - not ready to install them yet.

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Jason
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by Jason »

JuneBug12000 wrote: October 18th, 2021, 12:27 pm
Jason wrote: October 17th, 2021, 8:55 pm
JuneBug12000 wrote: October 4th, 2021, 4:14 pm We are looking to add wind and solar to our property here in southeast Idaho. Any recommendations?
An acquaintance of mine - LDSPrepper who relocated from Texas to just south of me and likely north of you (Shelley, Idaho)... David told me during a visit to inspect his geothermal greenhouse...that in hindsight regarding resources he would pursue food and other survival items before he would tackle the energy side of things...and he's made the most dedicated effort regarding prepping from a normal person that I have so far personally witnessed in my life. I know of others who have done underground bunkers and all sorts of stuff but they had wealth far beyond my definition of normal - i.e. have to work a job to provide for family (less than $150k/yr). Versus the underground bunker dude who is now dead but was head of IHC for some time couple decades back and spent over a million prepping from 6X6 truck w/satellite gps to get him to underground bunker (and he died in a hospital bed)...another was Chicago executive who got divorced and had to sell the underground bunker in Colorado to split assets with wife.

Here is David's solar setup from the Houston days...
His top 10 list for 2022 via he and his wife that they posted couple days ago...
He's a big Mittleider fan...and the book is definitely worth the cost. Just know that when I priced it out a couple years ago (and construction material costs have only gone up)...it was about $100k to outfit an acre of ground. That would certainly produce a lot of food effectively and efficiently but that's quite the upfront cost...

And there are some holes in the system. Not hard to remedy but certainly some compromises and weaknesses.

He's very approachable though and I would recommend reaching out to him on the solar side. Several years ago he had gotten a source of solar panels and was selling them. I haven't kept up with him since then (he became very busy as a Bishop in college ward in Rexburg) but I know that he's always working on improvements and resources. Certainly would be helpful to you!
Thank you for the links. I am watching David's videos and they are great.
He's a good egg! Very charitable as well...he didn't know me from Adam yet let my wife and I come visit him at his house and spent a couple hours giving us a tour and showing us everything he had been working on from geothermal to solar to latest low cost insulated #10 can rocket stove design he was working on at the time...

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

Jason wrote: October 17th, 2021, 8:55 pm
JuneBug12000 wrote: October 4th, 2021, 4:14 pm We are looking to add wind and solar to our property here in southeast Idaho. Any recommendations?
An acquaintance of mine - LDSPrepper who relocated from Texas to just south of me and likely north of you (Shelley, Idaho)... David told me during a visit to inspect his geothermal greenhouse...that in hindsight regarding resources he would pursue food and other survival items before he would tackle the energy side of things...and he's made the most dedicated effort regarding prepping from a normal person that I have so far personally witnessed in my life. I know of others who have done underground bunkers and all sorts of stuff but they had wealth far beyond my definition of normal - i.e. have to work a job to provide for family (less than $150k/yr). Versus the underground bunker dude who is now dead but was head of IHC for some time couple decades back and spent over a million prepping from 6X6 truck w/satellite gps to get him to underground bunker (and he died in a hospital bed)...another was Chicago executive who got divorced and had to sell the underground bunker in Colorado to split assets with wife.

Here is David's solar setup from the Houston days...
His top 10 list for 2022 via he and his wife that they posted couple days ago...
He's a big Mittleider fan...and the book is definitely worth the cost. Just know that when I priced it out a couple years ago (and construction material costs have only gone up)...it was about $100k to outfit an acre of ground. That would certainly produce a lot of food effectively and efficiently but that's quite the upfront cost...

And there are some holes in the system. Not hard to remedy but certainly some compromises and weaknesses.

He's very approachable though and I would recommend reaching out to him on the solar side. Several years ago he had gotten a source of solar panels and was selling them. I haven't kept up with him since then (he became very busy as a Bishop in college ward in Rexburg) but I know that he's always working on improvements and resources. Certainly would be helpful to you!
Interesting, may have to reach out to him. You and I sound like we’re pretty close.

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Jason
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by Jason »

I should add that the other Mittleider guy...and remaining force behind the gardening method after Jacob's passing (President of the Foundation)...Jim Kennard is an outstanding individual as well. He's also in the IF area. I was between jobs when he invited me out to his house to tour his garden...and he gave me a copy of the latest edition of the book for free after he discovered my job situation.

Its a real treasure when you come across genuinely good decent people that are truly interesting in helping people out...

https://growfood.com/shop/the-mittleide ... d=discount

https://ldsprepperstore.com/pages/contact-me

JuneBug12000
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by JuneBug12000 »

Jason wrote: October 18th, 2021, 12:53 pm
JuneBug12000 wrote: October 18th, 2021, 12:27 pm
Jason wrote: October 17th, 2021, 8:55 pm
JuneBug12000 wrote: October 4th, 2021, 4:14 pm We are looking to add wind and solar to our property here in southeast Idaho. Any recommendations?
An acquaintance of mine - LDSPrepper who relocated from Texas to just south of me and likely north of you (Shelley, Idaho)... David told me during a visit to inspect his geothermal greenhouse...that in hindsight regarding resources he would pursue food and other survival items before he would tackle the energy side of things...and he's made the most dedicated effort regarding prepping from a normal person that I have so far personally witnessed in my life. I know of others who have done underground bunkers and all sorts of stuff but they had wealth far beyond my definition of normal - i.e. have to work a job to provide for family (less than $150k/yr). Versus the underground bunker dude who is now dead but was head of IHC for some time couple decades back and spent over a million prepping from 6X6 truck w/satellite gps to get him to underground bunker (and he died in a hospital bed)...another was Chicago executive who got divorced and had to sell the underground bunker in Colorado to split assets with wife.

Here is David's solar setup from the Houston days...
His top 10 list for 2022 via he and his wife that they posted couple days ago...
He's a big Mittleider fan...and the book is definitely worth the cost. Just know that when I priced it out a couple years ago (and construction material costs have only gone up)...it was about $100k to outfit an acre of ground. That would certainly produce a lot of food effectively and efficiently but that's quite the upfront cost...

And there are some holes in the system. Not hard to remedy but certainly some compromises and weaknesses.

He's very approachable though and I would recommend reaching out to him on the solar side. Several years ago he had gotten a source of solar panels and was selling them. I haven't kept up with him since then (he became very busy as a Bishop in college ward in Rexburg) but I know that he's always working on improvements and resources. Certainly would be helpful to you!
Thank you for the links. I am watching David's videos and they are great.
He's a good egg! Very charitable as well...he didn't know me from Adam yet let my wife and I come visit him at his house and spent a couple hours giving us a tour and showing us everything he had been working on from geothermal to solar to latest low cost insulated #10 can rocket stove design he was working on at the time...
That is awesome. We put an offer on a house in Shelley that was off grid, but didn't get it. Too much competition. We are about 15-20 miles south of that now and making house and land we could find work. I am anxious to get the deep well hand pump as soon as possible and then add the wind/solar so that our septic pump works without the grid. We have accomplished so much in the last 5 months, but there is still so much to do!

I just trust the Lord's timing and keep walking as fast as I can toward being as prepared as possible.

We need an Idaho meetup like the Utah members did!

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Jason
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by Jason »

JuneBug12000 wrote: October 18th, 2021, 1:03 pm
Jason wrote: October 18th, 2021, 12:53 pm
JuneBug12000 wrote: October 18th, 2021, 12:27 pm
Jason wrote: October 17th, 2021, 8:55 pm

An acquaintance of mine - LDSPrepper who relocated from Texas to just south of me and likely north of you (Shelley, Idaho)... David told me during a visit to inspect his geothermal greenhouse...that in hindsight regarding resources he would pursue food and other survival items before he would tackle the energy side of things...and he's made the most dedicated effort regarding prepping from a normal person that I have so far personally witnessed in my life. I know of others who have done underground bunkers and all sorts of stuff but they had wealth far beyond my definition of normal - i.e. have to work a job to provide for family (less than $150k/yr). Versus the underground bunker dude who is now dead but was head of IHC for some time couple decades back and spent over a million prepping from 6X6 truck w/satellite gps to get him to underground bunker (and he died in a hospital bed)...another was Chicago executive who got divorced and had to sell the underground bunker in Colorado to split assets with wife.

Here is David's solar setup from the Houston days...
His top 10 list for 2022 via he and his wife that they posted couple days ago...
He's a big Mittleider fan...and the book is definitely worth the cost. Just know that when I priced it out a couple years ago (and construction material costs have only gone up)...it was about $100k to outfit an acre of ground. That would certainly produce a lot of food effectively and efficiently but that's quite the upfront cost...

And there are some holes in the system. Not hard to remedy but certainly some compromises and weaknesses.

He's very approachable though and I would recommend reaching out to him on the solar side. Several years ago he had gotten a source of solar panels and was selling them. I haven't kept up with him since then (he became very busy as a Bishop in college ward in Rexburg) but I know that he's always working on improvements and resources. Certainly would be helpful to you!
Thank you for the links. I am watching David's videos and they are great.
He's a good egg! Very charitable as well...he didn't know me from Adam yet let my wife and I come visit him at his house and spent a couple hours giving us a tour and showing us everything he had been working on from geothermal to solar to latest low cost insulated #10 can rocket stove design he was working on at the time...
That is awesome. We put an offer on a house in Shelley that was off grid, but didn't get it. Too much competition. We are about 15-20 miles south of that now and making house and land we could find work. I am anxious to get the deep well hand pump as soon as possible and then add the wind/solar so that our septic pump works without the grid. We have accomplished so much in the last 5 months, but there is still so much to do!

I just trust the Lord's timing and keep walking as fast as I can toward being as prepared as possible.

We need an Idaho meetup like the Utah members did!
Competition is steep now...throttled back some...but the fire is still going strong.

Always stuff to do...at least I've never been remotely settled and comfortable...

Yeah an east Idaho meetup would be cool...let the west side burn...just kidding...that's my wife's neck of the woods...

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Gadianton Slayer
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by Gadianton Slayer »

JuneBug12000 wrote: October 18th, 2021, 1:03 pm
I am anxious to get the deep well hand pump as soon as possible and then add the wind/solar so that our septic pump works without the grid.
When I lived in Utah I would bring empty milk jugs and fill them up out here at my grandparents place to take home, they have well water :D The difference is amazing.
JuneBug12000 wrote: October 18th, 2021, 1:03 pm
We need an Idaho meetup like the Utah members did!
Sometime around Nov 6 we are getting together with some like-minded friends. If you or anyone else is interested I’ll privately pass out the details when we figure it out.

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mudflap
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by mudflap »

Jason wrote: October 17th, 2021, 8:55 pm in hindsight regarding resources he would pursue food and other survival items before he would tackle the energy side of things
yes. Solar / wind is a nice idea, but if there's any kind of long-term breakdown - like those huge transformers that there are only 20 of (I forget the number) in the USA - if they went out, they say the likelihood of replacing them would be in the range of years, not months. That's years without power. Solar is a nice "5 year solution" - it's not long term. Folks say the panels last 20 years - yes, but all the other parts don't - most batteries you can afford are only going to be 10 years max. Unless you go all out, your inverter might give you 10 years. If one piece of the complicated puzzle goes out in 5 years, the whole system is screwed.

A good back up plan is to plan as if you lived in the 1890's - no electricity - hand water pumps, passive cooling systems, no refrigeration (learn how to dry meat, can fruit and veggies, use a root cellar). Huge windows taking up an entire wall on your cabin are a bad idea - if they break, can you imagine trying to find replacement glass in a grid down situation? No. you need normal sized windows - 3x5 or something really common. If they break, you have a lot better chance of replacing them.

Wind power - this would be better than solar, IMO - at least you can build a windmill, and alternators from cars are plentiful and cheap at the junkyard. An alternator can be repaired most of the time. You can't easily build solar panels. But wind power is notoriously unreliable.

I think in terms of reducing use, rather than trying to build a system that can handle my current lifestyle. But when a guy offers you free still-in-the-packaging 180W solar panels - you say "yes" every time. :).

Honestly, when we were without power for a week after some tornadoes rolled through - the thing we missed most was ice and the refrigerator. My neighbor showed me how to tie into the breaker box and hook up a generator - obviously, you want to disable backfeed onto the public grid - but really, what appliances do you actually NEED? refrigerator seems like #1. lights - #2. cooking, washing, air conditioning* seem secondary, or even further down the list.

* air conditioning - here in the South, it would be pretty difficult to remain comfortable without A/C. the humidity is a big problem in the summer. To mitigate the need for so much AC/ you should try to make your home as efficient as possible - lots of thermal mass, wrap around porches, avoid South facing roofs, overdo the roof insulation, put the home up on piers so you have good under-house air flow.

If you can overcome most of your power needs and live simply on just the power required for your fridge and a few lights, then your solar energy requirements shrink down to a pretty small footprint.

just my $0.02...

JuneBug12000
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Posts: 2066

Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by JuneBug12000 »

mudflap wrote: October 18th, 2021, 1:12 pm
Jason wrote: October 17th, 2021, 8:55 pm in hindsight regarding resources he would pursue food and other survival items before he would tackle the energy side of things
yes. Solar / wind is a nice idea, but if there's any kind of long-term breakdown - like those huge transformers that there are only 20 of (I forget the number) in the USA - if they went out, they say the likelihood of replacing them would be in the range of years, not months. That's years without power. Solar is a nice "5 year solution" - it's not long term. Folks say the panels last 20 years - yes, but all the other parts don't - most batteries you can afford are only going to be 10 years max. Unless you go all out, your inverter might give you 10 years. If one piece of the complicated puzzle goes out in 5 years, the whole system is screwed.

A good back up plan is to plan as if you lived in the 1890's - no electricity - hand water pumps, passive cooling systems, no refrigeration (learn how to dry meat, can fruit and veggies, use a root cellar). Huge windows taking up an entire wall on your cabin are a bad idea - if they break, can you imagine trying to find replacement glass in a grid down situation? No. you need normal sized windows - 3x5 or something really common. If they break, you have a lot better chance of replacing them.

Wind power - this would be better than solar, IMO - at least you can build a windmill, and alternators from cars are plentiful and cheap at the junkyard. An alternator can be repaired most of the time. You can't easily build solar panels. But wind power is notoriously unreliable.

I think in terms of reducing use, rather than trying to build a system that can handle my current lifestyle. But when a guy offers you free still-in-the-packaging 180W solar panels - you say "yes" every time. :).

Honestly, when we were without power for a week after some tornadoes rolled through - the thing we missed most was ice and the refrigerator. My neighbor showed me how to tie into the breaker box and hook up a generator - obviously, you want to disable backfeed onto the public grid - but really, what appliances do you actually NEED? refrigerator seems like #1. lights - #2. cooking, washing, air conditioning* seem secondary, or even further down the list.

* air conditioning - here in the South, it would be pretty difficult to remain comfortable without A/C. the humidity is a big problem in the summer. To mitigate the need for so much AC/ you should try to make your home as efficient as possible - lots of thermal mass, wrap around porches, avoid South facing roofs, overdo the roof insulation, put the home up on piers so you have good under-house air flow.

If you can overcome most of your power needs and live simply on just the power required for your fridge and a few lights, then your solar energy requirements shrink down to a pretty small footprint.

just my $0.02...
I agree. I always say if I wasn't "Mormon" I'd be Amish.

My husband likes comfort though. I figure the wind/solar is just what you said. Temporary. Something to keep my family going as we slowly decline in modern conveniences. Give them a chance to adjust.

I will say I have done my laundry by hand many times and it really does get your clothes cleaner than the washing machine. For awhile I used a plunger (the black one with ridges) but I quickly learned that my hands can be enough (except for potty training clothes. LOL)

I was told as a child, by the Holy Ghost, that I was not made for the world the way it is, but the world that is coming.
I am so excited! but also not naive. The shift will be hard and not everyone is going to make it. I know that God has a plan though, and it is good.

As for the refrigerator.

A wooden frame with shelves. A piece of burlap over the whole thing with a pan on the top shelf full of water. Place in a shady place with airflow (outside) and be amazed at how cool you can get/keep food. I leaned about these "refrigerators" many years ago. I looked them up on youtube a few years back and found some videos of people using them as well.

I tried finding some on youtube just now, not exactly the same, but interesting options.

Here are a couple of options:

https://ecogreenlove.com/tag/evaporativ ... he%20water.
Methods of Alternative Refrigeration
Evaporative Cooler Fridge
Evaporative Refrigerator

Supplies needed:

A shelf unit
Burlap bags
Clamps or clothespins
Large pan for water (if needed)
A cheap PVC shelf unit from you local hardware store works well. It’s lightweight and inexpensive.
Assembling Instructions:

Assemble shelf with the top shelf inverted (shown in picture) to use as a built-in tray for water.
Cut burlap to fit around shelf. I recommend doing this ahead of time in case you need to sew pieces together.
Soak burlap in water and place around shelf as shown using the clamps or clothespins to hold cloth in place.
Fill the top (or large pan/cookie sheet) with water.
Leave an extra amount of burlap folded over on the top to soak in the water.
As the water wicks down the burlap there’s a cooling effect on the items placed inside on the shelf.

Putting it in the shade is of course optimal and a slight breeze is helpful too.

One year when I was at a family reunion in Pinedale, AZ during the summer, we used this alternative refrigeration method to keep our things cool because there was a short supply of ice for coolers. It worked VERY well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nROyfgGxMDw

https://www.permaculturenews.org/2017/0 ... n-fridges/

JuneBug12000
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Posts: 2066

Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by JuneBug12000 »

mudflap wrote: October 18th, 2021, 1:12 pm
* air conditioning - here in the South, it would be pretty difficult to remain comfortable without A/C. the humidity is a big problem in the summer. To mitigate the need for so much AC/ you should try to make your home as efficient as possible - lots of thermal mass, wrap around porches, avoid South facing roofs, overdo the roof insulation, put the home up on piers so you have good under-house air flow.
I forgot to mention a/c.

For some reason we have only had working AC for two of the last nearly 20 years. Either the house doesn't have it, or it breaks right away. We lived in Utah and had HUGE windows as well. Always so hot. Same thing happened at this new house. So I have a few tricks for keeping cool.
(Might not work as well if it is too humid)

It always makes me so sad when I see people in the news dying of heat exhaustion when the power goes out. It often is not necessary.

One is to follow the example of those old movie cowboys. Keep a wet cloth on your neck. Cold water is even better.
Wet your hair.
Mist or wipe water on your limbs.
Any airflow creates an evaporated effect so sit in the shade OUTSIDE so if there is any breeze it should help.

Linen is your summer fabric. You can have it arm length to cover your skin from son, but it will let the air flow and keep you cool.
(Side note: Wool is the winter fabric because it is warm, naturally fire resistant, antibacterial and water resistant.
Cotton is the spring and summer fabric, Warm, but not as much as wool. Cool, but not as much as linen.)

Hydration. What you drink today affects your hydration weeks from now. Keep your water intake consistent.

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mudflap
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Location: The South
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Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by mudflap »

JuneBug12000 wrote: October 18th, 2021, 5:23 pm
mudflap wrote: October 18th, 2021, 1:12 pm
* air conditioning - here in the South, it would be pretty difficult to remain comfortable without A/C. the humidity is a big problem in the summer. To mitigate the need for so much AC/ you should try to make your home as efficient as possible - lots of thermal mass, wrap around porches, avoid South facing roofs, overdo the roof insulation, put the home up on piers so you have good under-house air flow.
I forgot to mention a/c.

For some reason we have only had working AC for two of the last nearly 20 years. Either the house doesn't have it, or it breaks right away. We lived in Utah and had HUGE windows as well. Always so hot. Same thing happened at this new house. So I have a few tricks for keeping cool.
(Might not work as well if it is too humid)

It always makes me so sad when I see people in the news dying of heat exhaustion when the power goes out. It often is not necessary.

One is to follow the example of those old movie cowboys. Keep a wet cloth on your neck. Cold water is even better.
Wet your hair.
Mist or wipe water on your limbs.
Any airflow creates an evaporated effect so sit in the shade OUTSIDE so if there is any breeze it should help.

Linen is your summer fabric. You can have it arm length to cover your skin from son, but it will let the air flow and keep you cool.
(Side note: Wool is the winter fabric because it is warm, naturally fire resistant, antibacterial and water resistant.
Cotton is the spring and summer fabric, Warm, but not as much as wool. Cool, but not as much as linen.)

Hydration. What you drink today affects your hydration weeks from now. Keep your water intake consistent.
yes- wet cloth works great, but only when the humidity is below 60%. moisture doesn't evaporate in the south, so shade is just as hot as anywhere else, usually. Best bet is to just get used to it and stay hydrated. On the plus side - we have a lot longer growing season, and don't need to irrigate.

my great aunt taught me about wearing long sleeves, long pants, and a hat in the deserts near Escalante. It does keep you cooler.

but still: on the comment about getting electrical power vs getting prepared foodwise: I don't think I'll be comfortable until I can grow enough food and have it last until I can plant more in the spring - either by storing it in a root cellar or canning it.

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Fred
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Location: Zion

Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by Fred »

Pretty much all solar panels sold today come with a 20 year warranty. They have no moving parts so there is nothing to wear out. They do degrade over time and produce less power, but I have seen solar panels last far beyond 20 years. I wouldn't expect them to fail in your lifetime. As far as batteries go, it just depends on how you treat them. 20 years is nothing for a battery that is not drained everyday. If you keep them charged, they last a very long time. Also batteries can be rejuvenated. Understanding why a battery fails in the first place is key to making sure one never failed and if it does, how to fix it. Well over 95% of all automobile batteries that are thrown away have no physical defect. The user simply was not willing to use proper maintenance or to rebuild them. A battery does not just magically die. It is a process generally called sulfation. When a lead acid battery goes dead a few times, it gets sulfate between the plates. Sulfates are an insulator and therefore do not allow the acid to touch the plates even though the plates are bathing in the acid. Desulfate the plates and you have a nearly new battery. There are electric desulfators that most people use on solar systems that are powerd by the battery they are keeping the sulfates off of. They work by pulsing a frequency that knocks the sulfates off of the plates and they disolve in the acid from whence they came. As long as the acid is not diluted with water too much and the plates are intact, a battery will remain in nearly new condition as long as the plates are clean. There are also chemical desulfators. There is another way to knock the sulfate coating off of the plates and that is to cut around the top of the battery so that you can remove the plates which are attached to the posts which are attached to the top of the battery. Dump the crud out of the battery box in a safe manner. Allow the battery plates to completely dry off. Take a battery charger and crank it up to 50 amps or so. You can start at 20 amps and work your way up as needed. The thing about a welder is that electricity attempts to flow between the cables. In so doing, a welding rod will melt from the heat. This is what an arc welder does. So a little juice will simply attempt to charge the battery but you want to knock the insulating crud off of the plates and if you turn the welder up and kit the battery with the juice. POW the crap flies off. Don't juice the welder up too much or you melt the lead plates and then the battery is not a battery but a boat anchor.

There are things that will fry an inverter. Lightning is one. I had a strike that was a hundred feet away and the inverter was not grounded as my place is a giant rock and I did not have that figured out at the time. POW. Fried Inverter. Your solar system needs to be grounded and if you are on a giant rock you can drill a hole in the rock and drive a grounding stake into the hole and put a bunch of salt around it and water it real good and you will be connected to mother earth. But a Faraday cage is a better solution and just ground the whole cage. This will protect ant electronic devices inside the Faraday cage from an EMP strike. Inverters are cheap so you can keep an extra on hand. A typical 5000 watt inverter is only $500 so just keep a spare.

Also if you have DC lights and appliances, you don't even need an inverter. Anything that runs on batteries, including your laptop, can be run off you battery bank without an inverter.

I would buy food before energy, for sure. But I wouldn't worry about a solar system failing. Besides, you should supplement a solar system with wind and that also gives you a backup.

JuneBug12000
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Posts: 2066

Re: Idaho Wind and Solar?

Post by JuneBug12000 »

Gadianton Slayer wrote: October 18th, 2021, 1:09 pm
JuneBug12000 wrote: October 18th, 2021, 1:03 pm
I am anxious to get the deep well hand pump as soon as possible and then add the wind/solar so that our septic pump works without the grid.
When I lived in Utah I would bring empty milk jugs and fill them up out here at my grandparents place to take home, they have well water :D The difference is amazing.
JuneBug12000 wrote: October 18th, 2021, 1:03 pm
We need an Idaho meetup like the Utah members did!
Sometime around Nov 6 we are getting together with some like-minded friends. If you or anyone else is interested I’ll privately pass out the details when we figure it out.
I liked your post and then realized I should be more clear. I am totally interested.

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