They Know.

[SunriseBoy]

If Joseph Smith was made president of the church tomorrow, within 30 days, 90% of the church would apostatize. Including the GA's!

And why is that?

Well, bud...if you couldn't figure that out; you couldn't see daylight through a ladder!

[Luke]

If Joseph Smith was made president of the church tomorrow, within 30 days, 90% of the church would apostatize. Including the GA's!

And why is that?

For starters, because he would have about 40 women in tow. That would cause a bit of rioting.

Secondly, see the things he was saying 200 years ago, and consider the situation we are currently in with regards to belief:

"If the Church knew all the commandments, one-half they would condemn through prejudice and ignorance." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 112, 6 April 1837)

"Many men will say, 'I will never forsake you, but will stand by you at all times.' But the moment you teach them some of the mysteries of the kingdom of God that are retained in the heavens and are to be revealed to the children of men when they are prepared for them they will be the first to stone you and put you to death. I was this same principle that crucified the Lord Jesus Christ, and will cause the people to kill the prophets in this generation. Many things are insoluble to the children of men in the last days: for instance, that God should raise the dead, and forgetting that things have been hid from before the foundation of the world, which are to be revealed to babes in the last days. There are a great many wise men and women too in our midst who are too wise to be taught; therefore they must die in their ignorance, and in the resurrection they will find their mistake. Many seal up the door of heaven by saying, So far God may reveal and I will believe." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 309, 11 June 1843)

"It always has been when a man was sent of God with the priesthood and he began to preach the fullness of the gospel, that he was thrust out by his friends, who are already to butcher him if he teach things which they imagine to be wrong; and Jesus was crucified upon this principle." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 310, 11 June 1843)

"But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chose." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 331, 20 January 1844)

"I want to stick to my text, to show that when men open their lips against these truths they do not injure me, but injure themselves. To the law and to the testimony, for these principles are poured out all over the Scriptures. When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by the weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 373-374, 16 June 1844)

"Joseph said to me in Kirtland, 'Brother Brigham, if I was to reveal to this people what the Lord has revealed to me, there is not a man or a woman would stay with me.'" (Brigham Young, JD 9:294, 25 May 1864)

"Had not Joseph said many times--are not men now living who heard him say: 'Would to God, brethren, I could tell you who I am! Would to God I could tell you what I know! But you would call it blasphemy, and there are men upon this stand who would want to take my life.'" (Life of Heber C. Kimball, pg. 332-333)

"On May 23, 1843, I listened to a discourse preached in the Nauvoo temple, which was then only partially finished. Brother Joseph was talking on the pre-existence of our spirits, and our relations to God in the spirit world, and our standing in the family circle of our Father. Now I am telling the truth, and I remember that while thus talking he suddenly turned around to the Apostles sitting on the stand and said in effect: 'Brethren, if I were to tell you all I know of the kingdom of God, I do know that you would rise up and kill me.' Brother Brigham arose and said, 'Don't tell me anything that I can't bear, for I don't want to apostatize.'" (Robert Horne, Millennial Star 55:585 #36, 4 September 1893)

[LDS Watchman]

Yes I do believe it or not. You have yet to refute that we are the salt Christ is referring to. Compare it to D&C 101 and you will see that it can't mean anyone else but us who have been called to an everlasting covenant. No one has given me a good rebuttle for this.

Again I don't think so. While there are certainly problems in the church, most of the active believing members aren't guilty of murders, all manner of lying and decet, priestcraft, etc.

I'll address your salt that has lost its savor question tomorrow.

And I'll address all the ways most are involved in murders, all manner of lying and deciets, and priestcraft. We are blind to all the ways we are guilty of these things. But we are, and it will get worse and worse.

I'm now going to address your question about the salt that has lost its savor. I believe that this reference by the Savior means different things at different times.

The Savior also said this to the Jews in his sermon on the mount. Lets look at the implications of him saying that to them.

1) Based on your interpretation of D&C 84, the Israelites had rejected the fulness of the gospel before they even arrived in the promised land following the exodus from Egypt, which happened about 1300 years before the sermon on the mount. Those Jews were once againbeing offered the fulness of the gospel. A few accepted it, but most rejected it. Those who rejected it were destroyed soon thereafter.

If we are looking for a parallel to the latter-days then the state of apostate Christianity in 1830 would be a reasonable comparison as it would have been about the same number of years since their forefathers rejected the fulness, too. And then beginning in 1830 the fulness of the gospel was again being offered to them.

2) If we conclude that the Savior was calling the newly converted Christians at the sermon on the mount the salt of the earth and not the Jews at large, we run into the same problem. The ancient Christian's eventually rejected the fulness of the gospel, too. Yet they weren't trodden under the foot of men. The continued on through 1830 and into the present.

Therefore 3 Nephi 16 is talking about apostate Christianity. They rejected the fulness anciently. They have also rejected the fulness offered to them since 1830, all except for those who repent. Those who repent and embrace the restored gospel are then numbered with the house of Israel (the LDS church membership).

[Luke]

The ancient Christian's eventually rejected the fulness of the gospel, too. Yet they weren't trodden under the foot of men. The continued on through 1830 and into the present.

Therefore 3 Nephi 16 is talking about apostate Christianity. They rejected the fulness anciently. They have also rejected the fulness offered to them since 1830, all except for those who repent. Those who repent and embrace the restored gospel are then numbered with the house of Israel (the LDS church membership).

Both of these statements cannot be true. You said that apostate Christianity (who you interpret to be the group to which 3 Nephi 16 refers) were not trodden under foot. Yet 3 Nephi 16 says whoever this group of people are would be.

As a side note, the ancient Christians absolutely were trodden under foot.

[Luke]

the house of Israel (the LDS church membership).

More nonsense.

[LDS Watchman]

The ancient Christian's eventually rejected the fulness of the gospel, too. Yet they weren't trodden under the foot of men. The continued on through 1830 and into the present.

Therefore 3 Nephi 16 is talking about apostate Christianity. They rejected the fulness anciently. They have also rejected the fulness offered to them since 1830, all except for those who repent. Those who repent and embrace the restored gospel are then numbered with the house of Israel (the LDS church membership).

Both of these statements cannot be true. You said that apostate Christianity (who you interpret to be the group to which 3 Nephi 16 refers) were not trodden under foot. Yet 3 Nephi 16 says whoever this group of people are would be.

As a side note, the ancient Christians absolutely were trodden under foot.

Both statements are true.

The apostate Gentile Christians will be trodden under foot and destroyed when the last days destruction comes upon the world. The tares in the church will also be destroyed and trodden under foot then.

[LDS Watchman]

the house of Israel (the LDS church membership).

More nonsense.

Nonsense, really?

Which church received the keys of the gathering of Israel?

[Luke]

The apostate Gentile Christians will be trodden under foot and destroyed when the last days destruction comes upon the world. The tares in the church will also be destroyed and trodden under foot then.

The problem for you is that 3 Nephi 16 specifically identifies the salt as the ones being trodden under foot. As pointed out, D&C 101 clearly identifies that it is those who have "covenanted with an everlasting covenant" who are the salt.

So, who has actually covenanted with an everlasting covenant?

[Luke]

the house of Israel (the LDS church membership).

More nonsense.

Nonsense, really?

Which church received the keys of the gathering of Israel?

No church received these keys. Joseph and Oliver received these keys.

There is an obvious difference.

And just because they received them doesn't mean anyone else did.

This LDS-think is based on a whole lot of faulty assumptions.

[LDS Watchman]

The apostate Gentile Christians will be trodden under foot and destroyed when the last days destruction comes upon the world. The tares in the church will also be destroyed and trodden under foot then.

The problem for you is that 3 Nephi 16 specifically identifies the salt as the ones being trodden under foot. As pointed out, D&C 101 clearly identifies that it is those who have "covenanted with an everlasting covenant" who are the salt.

So, who has actually covenanted with an everlasting covenant?

According to the critics no one alive today has covenanted with an everlasting covenant.

But the answer to your question is that the ancient Israelites, ancient Christians, and LDS church members were all called the salt of the earth by the Savior.

[LDS Watchman]

the house of Israel (the LDS church membership).

More nonsense.

Nonsense, really?

Which church received the keys of the gathering of Israel?

No church received these keys. Joseph and Oliver received these keys.

There is an obvious difference.

And just because they received them doesn't mean anyone else did.

This LDS-think is based on a whole lot of faulty assumptions.

What was the calling of the 12 apostles and church missionaries?

Answer: To gather Israel

[Reluctant Watchman]

To teach of Christ? Maybe....

[franklinbluth]

To teach of Christ? Maybe....

"after they have builded a city and two temples at an <​immense​> expense of labor and treasure; after they have increased from hundreds to hundreds of thousands; and after they have sent Missionaries to the various nations of the earth to gather Israel according to the predictions of all the holy prophets since the world began"
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ource-note

[Luke]

What was the calling of the 12 apostles and church missionaries?

Answer: To gather Israel

Ok... but what does this prove?

They were already doing missionary work years before, anyway.

[Reluctant Watchman]

To teach of Christ? Maybe....

"after they have builded a city and two temples at an <​immense​> expense of labor and treasure; after they have increased from hundreds to hundreds of thousands; and after they have sent Missionaries to the various nations of the earth to gather Israel according to the predictions of all the holy prophets since the world began"
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ource-note

And what is the point of gathering if they don't know who Christ is?

[franklinbluth]

To teach of Christ? Maybe....

"after they have builded a city and two temples at an <​immense​> expense of labor and treasure; after they have increased from hundreds to hundreds of thousands; and after they have sent Missionaries to the various nations of the earth to gather Israel according to the predictions of all the holy prophets since the world began"
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ource-note

And what is the point of gathering if they don't know who Christ is?

You're changing the subject. The question at hand was about who counted as gentiles, not about knowing who Jesus was.

[Reluctant Watchman]

You're changing the subject. The question at hand was about who counted as gentiles, not about knowing who Jesus was.

No, Im not. My response want to you. This was the question:

"What was the calling of the 12 apostles and church missionaries?"

[LDS Watchman]

What was the calling of the 12 apostles and church missionaries?

Answer: To gather Israel

Ok... but what does this prove?

They were already doing missionary work years before, anyway.

It proves that the church is Israel and the apostles and missionaries are among the last laborers the Lord called to gather together the house of Israel. Joseph Smith also passed the keys of the kingdom and all other keys the church needed to gather Israel and fulfil its mission to the quorum of the 12 apostles in Nauvoo before his death.

[franklinbluth]

You're changing the subject. The question at hand was about who counted as gentiles, not about knowing who Jesus was.

No, Im not. My response want to you. This was the question:

"What was the calling of the 12 apostles and church missionaries?"

Oooo. Did they wear shoes? Maybe that's what we need to detour to discuss. What about how many buttons were on their shirts? We've got to out the brakes in the rest in the convo to figure this one out!

[Reluctant Watchman]

You're changing the subject. The question at hand was about who counted as gentiles, not about knowing who Jesus was.

No, Im not. My response want to you. This was the question:

"What was the calling of the 12 apostles and church missionaries?"

Oooo. Did they wear shoes? Maybe that's what we need to detour to discuss. What about how many buttons were on their shirts? We've got to out the brakes in the rest in the convo to figure this one out!

I wouldn't expect less of you Frankie.

[LDS Watchman]

If Joseph Smith was made president of the church tomorrow, within 30 days, 90% of the church would apostatize. Including the GA's!

And why is that?

For starters, because he would have about 40 women in tow. That would cause a bit of rioting.

Secondly, see the things he was saying 200 years ago, and consider the situation we are currently in with regards to belief:

"If the Church knew all the commandments, one-half they would condemn through prejudice and ignorance." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 112, 6 April 1837)

"Many men will say, 'I will never forsake you, but will stand by you at all times.' But the moment you teach them some of the mysteries of the kingdom of God that are retained in the heavens and are to be revealed to the children of men when they are prepared for them they will be the first to stone you and put you to death. I was this same principle that crucified the Lord Jesus Christ, and will cause the people to kill the prophets in this generation. Many things are insoluble to the children of men in the last days: for instance, that God should raise the dead, and forgetting that things have been hid from before the foundation of the world, which are to be revealed to babes in the last days. There are a great many wise men and women too in our midst who are too wise to be taught; therefore they must die in their ignorance, and in the resurrection they will find their mistake. Many seal up the door of heaven by saying, So far God may reveal and I will believe." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 309, 11 June 1843)

"It always has been when a man was sent of God with the priesthood and he began to preach the fullness of the gospel, that he was thrust out by his friends, who are already to butcher him if he teach things which they imagine to be wrong; and Jesus was crucified upon this principle." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 310, 11 June 1843)

"But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chose." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 331, 20 January 1844)

"I want to stick to my text, to show that when men open their lips against these truths they do not injure me, but injure themselves. To the law and to the testimony, for these principles are poured out all over the Scriptures. When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by the weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 373-374, 16 June 1844)

"Joseph said to me in Kirtland, 'Brother Brigham, if I was to reveal to this people what the Lord has revealed to me, there is not a man or a woman would stay with me.'" (Brigham Young, JD 9:294, 25 May 1864)

"Had not Joseph said many times--are not men now living who heard him say: 'Would to God, brethren, I could tell you who I am! Would to God I could tell you what I know! But you would call it blasphemy, and there are men upon this stand who would want to take my life.'" (Life of Heber C. Kimball, pg. 332-333)

"On May 23, 1843, I listened to a discourse preached in the Nauvoo temple, which was then only partially finished. Brother Joseph was talking on the pre-existence of our spirits, and our relations to God in the spirit world, and our standing in the family circle of our Father. Now I am telling the truth, and I remember that while thus talking he suddenly turned around to the Apostles sitting on the stand and said in effect: 'Brethren, if I were to tell you all I know of the kingdom of God, I do know that you would rise up and kill me.' Brother Brigham arose and said, 'Don't tell me anything that I can't bear, for I don't want to apostatize.'" (Robert Horne, Millennial Star 55:585 #36, 4 September 1893)

Yeah, the woke members would be gone I'm sure. But I don't think that's 90%. We also don't know what the Lord would have him do if he were back in charge either.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Relevant

1044CBEC-46F1-4008-98AA-D3BA74EAA595.jpeg (190.01 KiB) Viewed 444 times

[Gadianton Slayer]

Oaks’ daughter is a nut job. They definitely know, because they teach it to their children.

CB0001F3-4295-4B45-A6A9-51E495841D5C.jpeg (113.95 KiB) Viewed 424 times

This was from a FB post of hers.

[InfoWarrior82]

Oaks’ daughter is a nut job. They definitely know, because they teach it to their children.
CB0001F3-4295-4B45-A6A9-51E495841D5C.jpeg
This was from a FB post of hers.

I present to you..... the epitome of a TBM.

[Gadianton Slayer]

Oaks’ daughter is a nut job. They definitely know, because they teach it to their children.
CB0001F3-4295-4B45-A6A9-51E495841D5C.jpeg
This was from a FB post of hers.

I present to you..... the epitome of a TBM.

I’ve got family like her. They think highly of me.