Joseph Alone Got it Right - How Dragon-Slaying = New`World-Creation

[abijah`]

Joseph alone ascribed Michael a role in the Creation, no one else.

Because that's what the symbolism of "overcoming the dragon" entails: World-Building.

Revelation 12
Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,
but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

In nearly every ancient conception of the universal Creation Myth, we see some iteration of a Serpent / Dragon who is slain/overcome, and through that victory, the dragon`slayer god is then able to order the world into a new, fresh creation.

Because that's what the dragon symbolism is: Chaos. The synthesis of the ultimate "wild beast" symbolism, with the ultimate Chaos symbolism.

Defeating the Dragon = "Order out of Chaos". Which is the pattern whereby God created the cosmos.

The Dragon (upon being defeated) = the chaotic, "matter disorganised" from which the new world can be fashioned and made.

Such has been the case with nearly all Creation Myths, w/ some notable examples being:

The Babylonions
Upstart, youthful god Marduk creates and (becomes supreme lord of) the world out of the remains of Tiamat's (the primordial dragon of the sea) corpse, Chaos having been subdued, and used to fashion a new cosmos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la6ROCN ... u.be&t=113


The Canaanites
Upstart, youthful god Baal (proper name "Hadad") defeats the sea-dragon deity "Yam" (whom some have identified/associated with Yahova) on behalf of his father El (and surely will I do it, wherefore give me thine honour..."), through which he is able to create a new order and rule as highest god upon Mt Zaphon.

The Egyptians
All the same typography regarding prophecies concerning Egypt all center around this "dragon in the sea" who opposes God's object to come and order a new world, and is consequently defeated.

Isa 51
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon?

Psalm 89
You crushed Rahab like a carcass

Isa 11
And the LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt, and will wave his hand over the River with his scorching breath, and strike it into seven channels, and he will lead people across in sandals.

The examples go on and on, and certainly extend well beyond the Semitic/Near-Eastern mythoi, with stuff like the Nordic Jörmungandr, the "World Serpent".

Defeating the serpent/dragon = creating a new world, Order overcoming Chaos, and using the carcass as the tapestry upon which to imprint a new created order, a new world.

Which illuminates the deeper layers of what John is conveying and deliberate associating with this carefully-crafted imagery and verbiage -

Revelation 12
Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,
but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

The connection between Michael and overcoming the serpent (although the scripture doesn't explicitly state it was Michael who was victorious -- which omission I see as potentially being highly significant, especially whereas the Davidic Herald factors in and how this world is basically a redux of the premortal world, the premortal failure of the dragon cementing the ultimate failure, post-Creation) seems to suggest -- given the surrounding symbolism and matrix of ideas regarding defeating serpents/dragons -- that Michael, is in fact scripturally associated with the Creation.

Meaning that Joseph's unique interpretation of Michael participating in creating the world, was CORRECT, and something no one else managed to pick up on.

[markharr]

This makes me wonder what Lucifer's plan was if he actually succeeded in conquering heaven. God has made it clear that if any unclean thing is allowed in Heaven, it ceases to be Heaven.

This is because it cannot be Heaven. Once even the slightest amount of filthiness is introduced, the filth spreads until everything becomes filthy. Any parent can tell you this. You can clean your house all day long but once you allow one dirty dish to be left out, you just gave permission for members of the family to leave every dirty dish out and your home falls back into chaos within hours.

It seems like the forces of wickedness are so consumed with dominating everything, that they never think past that. They never make it to thinking about the next phase. What would actually happen if they were to win.

[abijah`]

This makes me wonder what Lucifer's plan was if he actually succeeded in conquering heaven. God has made it clear that if any unclean thing is allowed in Heaven, it ceases to be Heaven.

This is because it cannot be Heaven. Once even the slightest amount of filthiness is introduced, the filth spreads until everything becomes filthy. Any parent can tell you this. You can clean your house all day long but once you allow one dirty dish to be left out, you just gave permission for members of the family to leave every dirty dish out and your home falls back into chaos within hours.

It seems like the forces of wickedness are so consumed with dominating everything, that they never think past that. They never make it to thinking about the next phase. What would actually happen if they were to win.

I find it striking, the similarities specifically between the Marduk/Baal succession myths, and how LDS portray the premortal fall of the satan.

Moses 4
Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

This is exactly what Baal does. He defeats the "tehom" Chaos-Dragon on behalf of his father-god El. El is basically a non-entity in the Baal story, as Baal literally takes his father's position/"honour" as Chief God - by doing everything himself, slaying the dragon by himself, subduing chaos to create a new order by himself, and as a result,he alone gets all the glory, and all authority in ruling as sovereign among all the other gods.

Just like the satan's plan. The cosmic-scale falling of a lead balloon.

edit: fixed link

[abijah`]

Past posts of mine relevant to the topic:

Spoiler

One thing Joseph said about God was that Michael was the means by which the world was made.

...interesting, how John the Revelator casts Michael as a dragon`slayer...

...and also interesting, how in Babylonian and Egyptian thought, "slaying the dragon" = CREATING THE WORLD

doubtless youve seen this image before. the Almighty`JHWH slaying the Leviathan/Tiamat/Rahav`, Lady Chaos herself fighting against Him who would come down and order it -


Rev`12
Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back

Isaiah 51
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake,as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon? [Isaiah: "Marduk didn't conquer Tiamat, Michael did!"]

Psalm 74
You divided the sea by your might; you broke the heads of the sea monsters on the waters.

In the ancient world, everyone knew the association between "slaying the dragon in the sea" and "slaying the serpent in the waters" = CREATION (the whole 7`days)

SO TAKE THAT CHRISTENDOM *Joseph Smith mic- drop* JOHN IS OBVIOUSLY SAYING MICHAEL HELPED MAKE THE WORLD, JOSEPH TOTALLY CALLED IT get REKT, joseph-haters

Spoiler

BibleProject's recent cosmology series has been excellent. Such good, solid, applicable info.

This is the one I most recently finished, i'm not caught up yet. Its the third one in. I just wish they did the full transcript like they used to. here is the weblink:

The Greatest Elohim
I'll just copy-paste their textual breakdown, maybe adding thoughts as they come.

But really important - and interesting imo - stuff, i've talked about it multiple times here before, about subjects like the Enûma Eliš, and Marduk vs Tiamat etc. Where they go with the Tiamat connections they talk about here in fact are actually downright fascinating when you start connecting all the dots, and how it affects seemingly unrelated subjects such as the Davidic servant, and the David-trope at large. Very very interesting. and its not like isa 51:9 and all them psalms aren't basically appropriating this precise narrative. Very interesting indeed.

For Marduk, disorder is a threat that he has to deal with. For Yahweh Elohim, it’s just his neutral canvas. He can make the abyss work for him. And that is the ultimate kind of power––to be able to go to something that is in complete disorder and turn it into potential … God can make the unproductive state of disorder work into his purpose to bring about ultimate order. It’s not a threat to him.

Spoiler

JHWH > Marduk

Humans were not made from the blood of a slain god to be slaves. They were made with the intention stemming from pure, divine love, and that was the intended destiny of labouring in the garden as a royal priest-king of God in His Garden`Temple`Mountain sanctuary.

The Bible does NOT "plagiarise" nearby cultures, LOL, they are commentating on it, and using it as a backdrop and a context for how they describe and account for the one, true God who is sovereign above all the other, lesser elohim.

Ill put their notes and add mine as i see fit. here is the weblink ----> https://bibleproject.com/podcast/does- ... n-stories/

"To place Gen 1 and 2 on the map of ancient cosmologies, we have to learn something about the cosmologies of Israel’s neighbors that formed the context in which [the biblical authors] wrote, ancient Egyptian cosmology and ancient Babylonian cosmology. Gen 1 is participating in a dialogue with those cosmologies, but making its own unique claim."

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• The Bible’s creation account shares far more in common with Egyptian, Babylonian, and Canaanite cosmologies than with our modern approaches to understanding our origins.

• While the cosmologies of other ancient societies share much in common with biblical cosmology (the ordering of chaotic waters, rival serpents, judgment of humanity by flood), key differences surround the nature of the creator. For instance, the Egyptian creator, Atum, is not an uncreated, eternally preexistent being (like Yahweh). Atum created himself from the chaotic waters. Atum is the first self-caused cause, which is a form of pantheism.

• In modern cosmology, we think of existence simply as the existence of matter. In ancient cosmologies, existence is ordered reality.

ANCIENT NEIGHBOURS
In part one (0-6:30), Tim and Jon recap the last episode of our series on ancient cosmology, which laid out the foundation for how to read Gen 1 and 2 like the ancient text it is.

Understanding that Gen 1-2 is an ancient cosmology, described by ancient words, is crucial to understanding the narrative itself. The Bible’s creation account shares far more in common with Egyptian, Babylonian, and Canaanite cosmologies than with our modern approaches to understanding our origins.

BABYLONIAN CREATION STORIES

In part two (6:30-19:00), Tim and Jon survey known accounts of other ancient cosmologies, which parallel Genesis 1-11 in a number of key ways.

In 1847, Austin Henry Layard discovered the first of thousands of cuneiform tablets, near Mosul, Iraq, that belonged to the library of Ashurbanipal (King of Assyria, seventh century B.C.). In 1872, George Smith compiled those tablets to produce the well-known Epic of Gilgamesh, and in 1895, Hermann Gunkel published Creation and Chaos, in which he claimed that Gen 1-11 displayed extensive dependence upon Babylonian traditions in the following ways.

• Creation begins from battles with the chaos water dragon

• Creation of humans from the dust

• Flood stories

• Ancient, pre-flood kings living for thousands of years

THE SELF-CREATED CREATOR

In part three (19:00-39:30), Tim and Jon take a closer look at the cosmology of the ancient Egyptians, with a brief examination of the Pyramid Texts and the Coffin Texts.

Like Babylonian cosmology, Egpytian cosmology is similar to Gen 1-11 on many fronts. (The following summary is adapted from Bernard Batto’s In the Beginning: Essays on Creation Motifs in the Ancient Near East and the Bible):

• The Egyptian creator is called Atum, or Nun, the unordered, watery substance from which all things emerged. The pre-created reality, or non-creation, was a chaotic watery condition, devoid of life but containing the potential for life.

• Atum began to evolve and differentiate himself from his watery incubation onto a primeval mound of dirt, and from there he began a process of self-development, or creation.

• Atum generated the rest of the Ennea, a cluster of eight other deities. These included Shu (goddess of air) and Tefnut (goddess of moisture), from whom come Nut (goddess of sky) and Geb (god of earth). Atum took on the role of the “eye of all creation” as the sun-god Re. All the gods worked together in a form of order called Ma’at, the eternal divine order that upholds all creation.

Egyptian and Hebrew creation accounts both start with non-existence represented by chaotic waters. Like whenever Egyptian gods overcome evil and chaos, they crush the heads of serpents. However, a notable difference between the two worldviews is that the Egyptian creator is not an uncreated, eternally preexistent being (like Yahweh). Atum created himself from the chaotic waters. Atum is the first self-caused cause, which is a form of pantheism.

ANCIENT UNDERSTANDING OF EXISTENCE
In part four (39:30-50:45), the team discusses the cosmological traditions of Sumerian societies from Mesopotamia.

In Sumerian cosmology, non-creation is a state of disorder, and creation is the process of the gods bringing order to the cosmos.

Any stories that describe a pre-existent state portray a desert wasteland. ‘Creation,’ therefore, is a process by which water was added to a barren desert, turning it into a fertile field. At the center of such stories is Enki, the god of fresh underground water who makes the land fertile through the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Ninhursag is the goddess of dry land who receives the waters and gives birth to plants, animals, and civilization. Related to this motif are texts that depict animals and humans as emerging from the ground like plants.
(Bernard Batto, “Mesopotamian Ideas of Creation,” 24-25)

In modern cosmology, we think of existence simply as the existence of matter. In ancient cosmologies, existence is ordered reality.

(build) BACK (better) TO BABYLON

In part five (50:45-end), Tim and Jon conclude with another examination of Babylonian cosmologies from the 17th century B.C.

Following the tradition of the Egyptians and Sumerians, Babylonian cosmology from this era centered around primeval waters generating a pantheon of deities, which would later be taken over by a young upstart god named Marduk, patron god of Babylon. When the gods get annoyed with humans, they send a flood to wipe them out. Tiamat, goddess of the chaotic ocean waters, threatens to overtake the newly established order with an army of other deities she recruits.

Spoiler

Defeating the sea-dragon, in the scriptures as well as pagan`myth, is associated with Creation, creating a new world, a new heaven & earth.

We know Michael was given instruction to create the world and he did so. Thereby participating in the Name/Identity of "YHWH", and - at least on some level - slaying the dragon of chaos who opposed the bringing-about of an ordered-world.

Michael is indeed a good contender for the Davidic servant, averse though you may be, him also having - according to how the scriptures recount Creation - "slain the dragon".

The weird blurring of Marduk with the Davidic servant is curious. Makes me go back to the vein of thought regarding the speculation of Satan desiring the position of the Davidic Seevant/Holy Ghost, which you also know all about.

Its suspicious to me.. Particularly when considering how men lime David, John and Isaiah, in essence, theologically commandeer the Baal/Zeus/Pharaoh mythoi, and smack-talk these false gods with their own words

This dragon-slayer motif in the scriptures is a complex one, but definitely well-established.

Spoiler

Who is this lady (or male?) who God seemed to use as His means of judgement in the Flood? Is this Lilith, or some similar trope of a woman, salty over what the consequences of what her choices sound like (noisy!)

So Marduk seems to be the Satan, who, in his subduing of Chaos (Tiamat), it is essentially him doing exactly what he posited in the grand primordial council about how he himself will save everyone. He will volunteer to go fight Tiamat.


So who is this figure, Tiamat? I've long wondered regarding this figure that perhaps there is a feminine aspect, as Babylon puts it, and as Egypt seems to sometimes, and other times as masculine, the Pharaoh being emblematic of the serpent.

Is she an ex-wife of God the Father?

or of Jesus?

Is she the "whore of babylon"?

Is she Lilith?

or Semiramis?

or perhaps from the masculine angle, is it simply identified with Satan? or his mistress? or a watcher, or perhaps one of the women who originally seduced them, way back in the day?

And whats with the crossover between Marduk destroying Tiamat, and the Davidic Servant vs Rahab? Its like Isaiah is deliberately telling the same story but inserting "arm of the Lord" to replace Marduk:

Isaiah 51
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon?

Psalm 89
You crushed Rahab like a carcass; you scattered your enemies with your mighty arm.

Isaiah 27 (Baal diss)
In that day the LORD with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing (lol) serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea.

[abijah`]

Relevant scriptures:

Isaiah 27
In that day the LORD with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Psalm 74
Yet God my King is from of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth.
You divided the sea by your might; you broke the heads of the sea monsters on the waters.
You crushed the heads of Leviathan; you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness.

^Thus we see the deliberate pairing of and explicit association between:
1) Creating the world, and
2) Slaying the Dragon (Order overcoming Chaos), as do the rest -

Job 26
By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Isaiah 51
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon?

Psalm 89
O LORD God of hosts, who is mighty as you are, O LORD, with your faithfulness all around you?
You rule the raging of the sea; when its waves rise, you still them.
You crushed Rahab like a carcass; you scattered your enemies with your mighty arm.

[abijah`]

Mark my words, all of this will prove to be EXTREMELY relevant in the Last Days, there are reasons why the very Beginning and the very End have such similar patterns, characters and symbols.

The "dragon of the sea" (whom the Lord defeats) is the concept upon which John portrays the endtime Beast, who rises from the sea -

Revelation 13:1 (John's POV, as he was chilling on the beach)
And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns...

The first beast of Revelation directly correlates with the primordial Leviathan, as well as the Rahab-dragon who's abyssal abode lay in the depths of the Red Sea, who symbolised/metaphorically represented Pharaoh, and the general tyranny of ancient Imperial Egypt broadly speaking.

So -- again -- mark my words. This "dragon-slayer" narrative archetype is one that will play out in its fulness and explicitness in the endtimes. It will not merely be a story to the saints who suffer at the hands of the beast, but an actual reality, wherein they plead for God to do what he did once long ago: to come and destroy the sea-serpent Beast who is then-currently "wearing them out", just like he did anciently.

This is exactly the scenario in which Isaiah is speaking to here:

Isaiah 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon?

^Totally fits the bill for a context coming from the endtime-era, heartfelt petitions of leviathan-oppressed saints, who -- in appealing to what YHWH has done in "days of old" -- now seek His deliverance for themselves, Him coming to slay the dragon just as He did in the "generations long ago".

All this has EVERYTHING to do with how the last days will play out, the functions of the Davidic Servant, as well as the gathering and consolidation of Zion. EVERYTHING.

And just as it always has been, this dragon-slaying trope is in direct association with the creation of a new world (wherein there is "no more sea, and why John goes out of his way to specify this):

Revelation 22:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

A new world is here -- upon the Leviathan-Beast of the endtimes being slain by the Lord -- a new world wherein the primordial, abyssal abode for the sea-dragon doesn't even exist, there's no serpent nor a watery chaos-realm over which to rule.

The primordial waters which anciently served as a non-threatening canvass upon which God forged the cosmos are no more, Chaos having been fully subdued by Christ's true Order.

[Durzan]

Abelon the Destroyer, the Beast that resets the Wheel of Eternity...

Abijah, have you read my poem "The Epic of Raphael" ? It surprises me to see how much of your observations and quotes thematically line up with the story described in that poem.

[abijah`]

Abelon the Destroyer, the Beast that resets the Wheel of Eternity...

Abijah, have you read my poem "The Epic of Raphael" ? It surprises me to see how much of your observations and quotes thematically line up with the story described in that poem.

I remember reading it a while ago, though I have difficulty recalling it, do you have a link?

I totally could see Raphael being the DS and have speculated as much in the past.

But not Abaddon. Abaddon is a name that identifies both a place/realm, as well as the entity who rules it. "Abbadon" = "destruction", similar terminology to "perdition":

Job 26
Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.

As for resetting the Wheel of Eternity, make no mistake that no beast can do that, but rather God alone can renew the cosmic elliptical cycle of Eternity, manifest in the archtype of the Green Knight, who renews the cycle of the Year.

Because this is what God does: He gives off Light, and He "divides" the light from darkness, and light within itself.

The angels/"sons of El" who are made on Day 4 are his "sons" by virtue that they image Him by doing what He does: giving off light, and dividing it up into meaningful segments of a coherent, larger-scale Whole, the concept of the Liturgical Year:

Gen 1:14-15
And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years

The Wheel of Time is marked out by these "lights", who are to function as "signs and seasons", the latter being the SAME EXACT WORD for the feast days. Which makes perfect sense; both the firmament-lights and the feastdays function in the same role, have the same purpose: marking out and dividing up the Liturgical Yearly Cycle.

So, only One who rules over the stars and other time-keeping heavenly bodies, has the true ability to renew or alter the Wheel of Time, the Elliptical or Eternity. This was Satan's design when he, quite literally, sought to "above the stars of God", and thereby commandeer the grand heavenly timetable, with all its wheels-within-wheels, for his own nefarious ends. This attempted hijacking of the times and seasons (as well as the Law) is something the antichrist will purportedly seek to do:

Daniel 7
He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law

[Durzan]

Abelon the Destroyer, the Beast that resets the Wheel of Eternity...

Abijah, have you read my poem "The Epic of Raphael" ? It surprises me to see how much of your observations and quotes thematically line up with the story described in that poem.

I remember reading it a while ago, though I have difficulty recalling it, do you have a link?

I totally could see Raphael being the DS and have speculated as much in the past.

But not Abaddon. Abaddon is a name that identifies both a place/realm, as well as the entity who rules it. "Abbadon" = "destruction", similar terminology to "perdition":

Job 26
Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.

viewtopic.php?t=53063

[Robin Hood]

Joseph alone ascribed Michael a role in the Creation, no one else.

Because that's what the symbolism of "overcoming the dragon" entails: World-Building.

Revelation 12
Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,
but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

In nearly every ancient conception of the universal Creation Myth, we see some iteration of a Serpent / Dragon who is slain/overcome, and through that victory, the dragon`slayer god is then able to order the world into a new, fresh creation.

Because that's what the dragon symbolism is: Chaos. The synthesis of the ultimate "wild beast" symbolism, with the ultimate Chaos symbolism.

Defeating the Dragon = "Order out of Chaos". Which is the pattern whereby God created the cosmos.

The Dragon (upon being defeated) = the chaotic, "matter disorganised" from which the new world can be fashioned and made.

Such has been the case with nearly all Creation Myths, w/ some notable examples being:

The Babylonions
Upstart, youthful god Marduk creates and (becomes supreme lord of) the world out of the remains of Tiamat's (the primordial dragon of the sea) corpse, Chaos having been subdued, and used to fashion a new cosmos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la6ROCN ... u.be&t=113


The Canaanites
Upstart, youthful god Baal (proper name "Hadad") defeats the sea-dragon deity "Yam" (whom some have identified/associated with Yahova) on behalf of his father El (and surely will I do it, wherefore give me thine honour..."), through which he is able to create a new order and rule as highest god upon Mt Zaphon.

The Egyptians
All the same typography regarding prophecies concerning Egypt all center around this "dragon in the sea" who opposes God's object to come and order a new world, and is consequently defeated.

Isa 51
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon?

Psalm 89
You crushed Rahab like a carcass

Isa 11
And the LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt, and will wave his hand over the River with his scorching breath, and strike it into seven channels, and he will lead people across in sandals.

The examples go on and on, and certainly extend well beyond the Semitic/Near-Eastern mythoi, with stuff like the Nordic Jörmungandr, the "World Serpent".

Defeating the serpent/dragon = creating a new world, Order overcoming Chaos, and using the carcass as the tapestry upon which to imprint a new created order, a new world.

Which illuminates the deeper layers of what John is conveying and deliberate associating with this carefully-crafted imagery and verbiage -

Revelation 12
Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,
but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

The connection between Michael and overcoming the serpent (although the scripture doesn't explicitly state it was Michael who was victorious -- which omission I see as potentially being highly significant, especially whereas the Davidic Herald factors in and how this world is basically a redux of the premortal world, the premortal failure of the dragon cementing the ultimate failure, post-Creation) seems to suggest -- given the surrounding symbolism and matrix of ideas regarding defeating serpents/dragons -- that Michael, is in fact scripturally associated with the Creation.

Meaning that Joseph's unique interpretation of Michael participating in creating the world, was CORRECT, and something no one else managed to pick up on.

Thank you.
Very interesting and thought provoking.

[abijah`]

Revelation 12
Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,
but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

One thing that just dawned on me is that ^this would appear to corroborate LDS speculations that the "noble and great" spirits were likewise involved in the Creation, both directly participating in it, as well as functioning in a cheerleading capacity:

Job 38
Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
...when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

[heliocentr1c]

Revelation 12
Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,
but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

One thing that just dawned on me is that ^this would appear to corroborate LDS speculations that the "noble and great" spirits were likewise involved in the Creation, both directly participating in it, as well as functioning in a cheerleading capacity:

Job 38
Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
...when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

I've been thinking about this passage lately too.

It seems like John is paralleling past events w/ events in the last days.

There originally was a war in heaven before the creation obviously - that war has waxed and waned on earth ever since but in the last days Michael, his 3 compatriots, along w/ the true saints of God take up the battle again more intensely bc the connection between Adam and his posterity here on earth is strengthened. Therefore the heaven which can be plainly seen from this earth begins to bear record of an increasingly likely impending victory.

But emphasis is put on Michael at this point bc Christ will not have finalized his victory and come into full association until Adam-ondi-Ahman and bc it parallels the creation myth by tying things together to show the symbolism.

So to me, it seems this passage is pointing out the push by Michael to ready things for Christ's impending arrival to claim what's His-- by Michael readying the bride, since the Dragon has been displaced.

The dragon may be associated with the constellation/Zodiac sign scorpio and any associated planets/stars it seems based on things I've read/considered but also obviously w/ Satan/3rd party ejected from Heaven at the beginning.

[heliocentr1c]

Abelon the Destroyer, the Beast that resets the Wheel of Eternity...

Abijah, have you read my poem "The Epic of Raphael" ? It surprises me to see how much of your observations and quotes thematically line up with the story described in that poem.

I remember reading it a while ago, though I have difficulty recalling it, do you have a link?

I totally could see Raphael being the DS and have speculated as much in the past.

But not Abaddon. Abaddon is a name that identifies both a place/realm, as well as the entity who rules it. "Abbadon" = "destruction", similar terminology to "perdition":

Job 26
Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.

As for resetting the Wheel of Eternity, make no mistake that no beast can do that, but rather God alone can renew the cosmic elliptical cycle of Eternity, manifest in the archtype of the Green Knight, who renews the cycle of the Year.

Because this is what God does: He gives off Light, and He "divides" the light from darkness, and light within itself.

The angels/"sons of El" who are made on Day 4 are his "sons" by virtue that they image Him by doing what He does: giving off light, and dividing it up into meaningful segments of a coherent, larger-scale Whole, the concept of the Liturgical Year:

Gen 1:14-15
And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years

The Wheel of Time is marked out by these "lights", who are to function as "signs and seasons", the latter being the SAME EXACT WORD for the feast days. Which makes perfect sense; both the firmament-lights and the feastdays function in the same role, have the same purpose: marking out and dividing up the Liturgical Yearly Cycle.

So, only One who rules over the stars and other time-keeping heavenly bodies, has the true ability to renew or alter the Wheel of Time, the Elliptical or Eternity. This was Satan's design when he, quite literally, sought to "above the stars of God", and thereby commandeer the grand heavenly timetable, with all its wheels-within-wheels, for his own nefarious ends. This attempted hijacking of the times and seasons (as well as the Law) is something the antichrist will purportedly seek to do:

Daniel 7
He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law

These are some killer/really interesting posts BTW man.

[jdt]

Abelon the Destroyer, the Beast that resets the Wheel of Eternity...

Abijah, have you read my poem "The Epic of Raphael" ? It surprises me to see how much of your observations and quotes thematically line up with the story described in that poem.

I am curious Durzan, if I recall correctly you have always spelled it "Abalon" rather than "Abelon", was that a just a typo or have you had some new understandings?

[abijah`]

It seems like John is paralleling past events w/ events in the last days.

There originally was a war in heaven before the creation obviously - that war has waxed and waned on earth ever since but in the last days Michael, his 3 compatriots, along w/ the true saints of God take up the battle again more intensely bc the connection between Adam and his posterity here on earth is strengthened. Therefore the heaven which can be plainly seen from this earth begins to bear record of an increasingly likely impending victory.

But emphasis is put on Michael at this point bc Christ will not have finalized his victory and come into full association until Adam-ondi-Ahman and bc it parallels the creation myth by tying things together to show the symbolism.

So to me, it seems this passage is pointing out the push by Michael to ready things for Christ's impending arrival to claim what's His-- by Michael readying the bride, since the Dragon has been displaced.

The dragon may be associated with the constellation/Zodiac sign scorpio and any associated planets/stars it seems based on things I've read/considered but also obviously w/ Satan/3rd party ejected from Heaven at the beginning.

Michael is definitely a key piece of the last-days puzzle, I've figured that for a little while now though I still have yet to see exactly where he fits. Maybe he is in fact the "friend of the bridegroom" and preparer of His bride (gathered/restored Israel, the Woman`Zion). One thing I find interesting is the commission God assigns him in 1 Enoch:

1 Enoch 10
And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the day of judgement consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever.

So Michael is the one in charge of wrangling up all the Forsworn, so they can be kept in an aqua`tartarus till the end of days, where they get consigned to a fire`tartarus. So his purview does seem to touch on things that have last-days, apocalyptic ramifications. Some think this is what Rev 9 is about, the return of the Forsworn, and yeah, could be.

So maybe the purview of God's commission to Michael to deal with the watchers extends up till the consummation of the 70 generations? That he is the one who fights them when they are released on the earth?

Anyway, regarding the endtime battle - that's what the context is for whenever you see the "sons of light" or "sons of darkness" language. Its about the apocalyptic battle between Michael/Melchizedek and the children of light versus Belial and the children of dark.

The people in Qumran were very interested in all that:
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/232860718.pdf

Not to mention:

Daniel 12
At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered...
And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

1 Thessa 5
But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.
So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.

^Thus we see the connotation is at the end of days, and like you touched on, I do believe that the course of this world rhymes with the premortal world, including that last battle. By employing specific terms from the very beginning of Genesis (i.e "light" & "dark", "day" & "night"), and using them to talk about events at the very end.

And Michael is in fact known to be the commander of the heavenly armies:
Joshua 5 (first gets called "a man"; then gets called "captain of YHWH's host" worshipped like how moses did at the thorn`bush):

When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us, or for our adversaries?”
And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?”
And the commander of the LORD’s army said to Joshua, “Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.

[heliocentr1c]

It seems like John is paralleling past events w/ events in the last days.

There originally was a war in heaven before the creation obviously - that war has waxed and waned on earth ever since but in the last days Michael, his 3 compatriots, along w/ the true saints of God take up the battle again more intensely bc the connection between Adam and his posterity here on earth is strengthened. Therefore the heaven which can be plainly seen from this earth begins to bear record of an increasingly likely impending victory.

But emphasis is put on Michael at this point bc Christ will not have finalized his victory and come into full association until Adam-ondi-Ahman and bc it parallels the creation myth by tying things together to show the symbolism.

So to me, it seems this passage is pointing out the push by Michael to ready things for Christ's impending arrival to claim what's His-- by Michael readying the bride, since the Dragon has been displaced.

The dragon may be associated with the constellation/Zodiac sign scorpio and any associated planets/stars it seems based on things I've read/considered but also obviously w/ Satan/3rd party ejected from Heaven at the beginning.

Michael is definitely a key piece of the last-days puzzle, I've figured that for a little while now though I still have yet to see exactly where he fits. Maybe he is in fact the friend of the bridegroom. One thing I find interesting is the commission God assigns him in 1 Enoch:

1 Enoch 10
And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the day of judgement consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever.

So Michael is the one in charge of wrangling up all the Forsworn, so they can be kept in an aqua`tartarus till the end of days, where they get consigned to a fire`tartarus. So his purview does seem to touch on things that have last-days, apocalyptic ramifications. Some think this is what Rev 9 is about, the return of the Forsworn, and yeah, could be.

So maybe the purview of God's commission to Michael to deal with the watchers extends up till the consummation of the 70 generations? That he is the one who fights them when they are released on the earth?

Anyway, regarding the endtime battle - that's what the context is for whenever you see the "sons of light" or "sons of darkness" language. Its about the apocalyptic battle between Michael/Melchizedek and the children of light versus Belial and the children of dark.

The people in Qumran were very interested in all that:
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/232860718.pdf

Not to mention:

Daniel 12
At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered...
And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

1 Thessa 5
But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.
So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.

^Thus we see the connotation is at the end of days, and like you touched on, I do believe that the course of this world rhymes with the premortal world, including that last battle. By employing specific terms from the very beginning of Genesis (i.e "light" & "dark", "day" & "night"), and using them to talk about events at the very end.

And Michael is in fact known to be the commander of the heavenly armies:
Joshua 5 (first gets called "a man"; then gets called "captain of YHWH's host" worshipped like how moses did at the thorn`bush):

When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us, or for our adversaries?”
And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?”
And the commander of the LORD’s army said to Joshua, “Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.

Yeah, I think you're right personally.

To me, Micheal's faith/PH did more to establish this creation than anyone else's other than Christ's and the Father's, obviously. Bc of that, he'll do more to seal/administer defeat to the Dragon than any other angel- hence the archangel title.

His power/station is preliminary to any one else's, but he works in concert w/ 3 others and that plays into the number use of 4 and 7 (and by implication 3) in Revelation and some other corollary spots in scripture, like Dan. 12, I think.

I like all the OT/apocrypha/myth references - shows how Revelation/ last days connect to pre-Atonement times and how widespread the understanding may have been throughout history.

Yeah, the shining wording associates them w/ apostles/saviors/ 1st resurrection (1 Ne. 1), I think.

[abijah`]

Anyway, regarding the endtime battle - that's what the context is for whenever you see the "sons of light" or "sons of darkness" language. Its about the apocalyptic battle between Michael/Melchizedek and the children of light versus Belial and the children of dark.

The people in Qumran were very interested in all that:

Just to supplement and add to this^, in my further research today, and upon perusing thru the actual text of the relevant scrolls, I feel like there's so much FASCINATING stuff, proper gems, so I want to add them here.

I'll highlight the parts that I suspect may be the Davidic Servant, or Michael -- just in case they are one and the same, which seems a plausible enough hypothesis anyway, for various reasons.

From the Qumran scroll, "Community Rule":

13. To the instructor, for demonstrating and for teaching all the Sons of Light concerning the origin of mankind;
14. for knowing every type of their spirits by their tokens, and of their deeds by their history.
15. From God is the knowledge of all that exists and that will yet be brought into existence. And before they existed he prepared their whole plan,
16. and when they exist according to their time that they are to carry out all their activities according to his glorious plan without any changes.
17. All decisions rest with him, but he will sustain them in all their righteous desires. For he created man to have dominion over
18. this earth. And he appointed for him two spirits by which he should walk until the time of his visitation. They are the spirits
19. of truth, . . . and of twisting, a fountain of light, . . . and a wellspring of darkness.
20. In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness; upon the ways of light they walk. But in the hand of the Angel
21. of Darkness is the rule of Sons of Deception . . . . And by the Angel of Darkness
22. all the Sons of Righteousness went astray, so that all their sins and transgressions and guilt and the trespasses of their ways are in his power,
23. according to the deep designs of God, until his appointed end. .. .
24. And all the spirits that follow him attempt to overthrow the Sons of Light, while the God of Israel and the Angel of Truth assist all
25. the Sons of Light. It was he who created the spirits of light and...

4. a spirit of understanding in the planning of every undertaking, anxious to judge rightly and act
5. in holiness constantly (firmly), active (creative), with increase of charity to all the Sons of Truth; and perfect (glorious) purity, loathing all the impure idols, with modest deportment (gait, going)
6. being discreet in all things while hiding the truth of (concealing faithfully) the secret teachings (or secrets of knowledge). These are the confidential instructions (or secrets) of the Spirit for the Sons of Truth [while on] earth. . . . For healing
7. and increase of peace in length of days, to be fruitful and multi- ply (lit. fertility of seed), with all the blessings of eternity and everlasting joy (joy of the eternities), in eternal live(s) [can also be read nētzaḥ, victorious, brilliant, triumphant], with a crown of glory
8. along with a garment of splendor in eternal light.
9–14. [The fate of the unworthy is described.]
13–14. weeping, . . . dark confusion, . . . destruction.
15–20. [Everything is determined in the plan of God according to
set periods, to give each a time of probation.]
15. Such are the generations of the children of men and in their
proper divisions each of their groups receives its inheritance
according to their generations . . . ,
16. each individual receiving his inheritance whether great or small.
.. .
18. And God in his deep designs and glorious wisdom has placed a limit to the existence of wrongdoing . . .
20. (until) the time set for the judgment . . . , at which time God will make clear by his truth all the deeds of mankind and purify for himself certain ones of the children of men, abolishing every spirit of iniquity from among them (him), removing every spirit of iniquity that besets
21. his flesh, and purify him by the Holy Ghost from all his iniqui- ties. And he will pour out upon him a spirit of truth like water, purging away all abominable falsehood . . .
22. to make known (or instruct) the righteous by the knowledge of the Most High (ʿElyon) and by (or in) the wisdom of the Sons of Heaven, for the enlightenment (lit. making intelligent) of those who are perfect in the way. For with them God has chosen to make an eternal covenant.
23. And to them is all the glory of Adam. . . .
25. For God has placed them (good and evil) in equal portions (side
by side) until the time is up and there is a new creation.
26. [. . .] and he causes the children of men to inherit, having a knowledge of good and [evil], each [receiving] his portion (lot)
according to his spirit. . .

From the Qumran scroll, "War Rule":

(1) For the In[structor, the Rule of] the War. The first attack of the Sons of Light shall be undertaken against the forces of the Sons of Darkness, the army of Belial: the troops of Edom, Moab, the sons of Ammon, the [Amalekites],
(2) Philistia, and the troops of the Kittim of Asshur. Supporting them are those who have violated the covenant. The sons of Levi, the sons of Judah, and the sons of Benjamin, those exiled to the wilderness, shall fight against them
(3) with [...] against all their troops, when the exiles of the Sons of Light return from the Wilderness of the Peoples to camp in the Wilderness of Jerusalem. Then after the battle they shall go up from that place
(4) a[nd tile king of; the Kittim [shall enter] into Egypt. In his time he shall go forth with great wrath to do battle against the kings of the north, and in his anger he shall set out to destroy and eliminate the strength of
(5) I[srael. Then the]re shall be a time of salvation for the People of God, and a time of dominion for all the men of His forces, and eternal annihilation for all the forces of Belial. There shall be g[reat] panic [among]
(6) the sons of Japheth, Assyria shall fall with no one to come to his aid, and the supremacy of the Kittim shall cease that wickedness be overcome without a remnant. There shall be no survivors of
(7) [all the Sons of] Darkness.

(8) Then [the Sons of Rig]hteousness shall shine to all ends of the world continuing to shine forth until end of the appointed seasons of darkness. Then at the time appointed by God, His great excellence shall shine for all the times of
(9) e[ternity;] for peace and blessing, glory and joy, and long life for all Sons of Light. On the day when the Kittim fall there shall be a battle and horrible carnage before the God of
(10) Israel, for it is a day appointed by Him from ancient times as a battle of annihilation for the Sons of Darkness. On that day the congregation of the gods and the congregation of men shall engage one another, resulting in great carnage.
(11) The Sons of Light and the forces of Darkness shall fight together to show the strength of God with the roar of a great multitude and the shout of gods and men; a day of disaster. It is a time
(12) of distress fo[r al]l the people who are redeemed by God. In all their afflictions none exists that is like it, hastening to its completion as an eternal redemption. On the day of their battle against the Kittim,
(13) they shall g[o forth for] carnage in battle. In three lots the Sons of Light shall stand firm so as to strike a blow at wickedness, and in three the army of Belial shall strengthen themselves so as to force the retreat of the forces
(14) [of Light. And when the] banners of the infantry cause their hearts to melt, then the strength of God will strengthen the he[arts of the Sons of Light.] In the seventh lot : the great hand of God shall overcome
(15) [Belial and al]l the angels of his dominion, and all the men of [his forces shall be destroyed forever].

Truly the battle is Yours, and by the strength of Your hand their corpses have been broken to pieces, without anyone to bury them. Indeed, Goliath the Gittite, a mighty man of valor,
(2) You delivered into the hand of David, Your servant, because he trusted in Your great name and not in sword and spear. For the battle is Yours.
(3) He subdued the Philistines many times by Your holy name. Also by the hand of our kings You rescued us many times
(4) because of Your mercy; not according to our works, for we have acted wickedly, nor for the acts of our rebelliousness. The battle is Yours, the strength is from You,
(5) it is not our own. Neither our power nor the strength of our hand have done valiantly, but rather by Your power and the strength of Your great valor. Jus[t as You told
(6) us in time past, saying: "There shall come forth a star out of Jacob, a scepter shal1 rite out of Israel, and shall crush the forehead of Moab and tear down all sons of Sheth,
(7) and he shall descend of Jacob and shall destroy the remnant from the city, and the enemy shall be a possession, and Israel shall do valiantly (Num. 24:17-19). By the hand of Your anointed ones,
(8) seers of things appointed, You have told us about the ti[mes] of the wars of Your hands in order that You may glorify Yourself {fight} among our enemies, to bring down the hordes of Belial, the seven
(9) vainglorious nations, at the hand of the oppressed whom You have redeemed [with powe]r and retribution; a wondrous strength. A heart that melts shall be as a door of hope. You will do to them as You did to Pharaoh
(10) and the officers of his chariots in the Red Sea. You will ignite the humble of spirit like a fiery torch of fire in a sheaf, consuming the wicked. You shall not turn back until
(11) the annihilation of the guilty. In time past You foretold [the app]ointed time for Your handis powerful work against the Kittim, saying: And Assyria shall fall by a sword not of man, and a sword,
(12) not of men, shall consume him (Isa. 31: 8).

(13) For into the hand of the oppressed You will deliver the [ene]mies of all the lands; into the hands of those who are prostrate in the dust, in order to bring down all mighty men of the peoples, to return the recompense
(14) of the wicked on the head of [...], to pronounce the just judgment of Your truth on all sons of man, and to make for Yourself an everlasting name among the people.

(1) For You have a multitude of holy ones in the heavens and hosts of angels in Your exalted dwelling to pr[aise] Your [name]. The chosen ones of the holy people
(2) You have established for Yourself in a [community. The nu]mber (or The b]ook) of the names of all their host is with You in Your holy dwelling, and the n[umber of the holy one]s is in the abode of Your glory.
(3) Mercies of blessing [...] and Your covenant of peace You engraved for them with a stylus of life in order to reign o[ver them]: for all time,
(4) commissioning the hos[ts of I Your [e]lect by their thousands and tens of thousands together with Your holy ones [and] Your angels, and directing them
(5) in battle [so as to condemn] the earthly adversaries by trial with Your judgments. With the elect of heaven [they] shall prev[ail].

(7) And You, O God, are awe[some] in the glory of Your dominion, and the company of Your holy ones is in our midst for etern[al] support. We [shall direct our contempt at kings, derision
(8) and disdain at mighty men. For the Lord is holy, and the King of Glory is with us together with the holy ones. Migh[ty men and] a host of angels are with our commissioned forces.
(9) The Hero of Wa[r] is with our company, and the host of His spirits is with our steps Our horsemen are [as] the clouds and as the mist covering the earth,
(10) and as a steady downpour shedding judgment on all her offspring. Rise up, O Hero, take Your captives, O Glorious One, take
(11) Your plunder, O You who do valiantly. Lay Your hand upon the neck of Your enemies, and Your foot upon the backs of the slain. Crush the nations, Your adversaries, and may Your sword
(12) devour guilty flesh. Fill Your land with glory, and Your heritance with blessing. An abundance of cattle in Your fields; silver and gold and precious
(13) stones in Your palaces. O Zion, rejoice greatly, and shine with joyful songs, O Jerusalem. Rejoice, all you cities of Judah, open
(14) your gates forever that the wealth of the nations might be brought to you, and their kings shall serve you. All they that oppressed you shall bow down to you, and the dust
(15) [of your feet they shall lick. O daughter]s of my people shout out with a voice of joy, adorn yourselves with ornaments of glory Rule over the ki[ngdom of the ],
(16) [... and I]srael to reign eternally.
(17) [...] them the mighty men of war, O Jerusalem [...]
(18) the exalt]ed above the heavens, O Lord, [and let Your glory be above all the earth ...

(1) . . . land his brothers the [pr]iests, the Levites, and all the elders of the Army with him. They shall bless from their position, the God of Israel and all His works of truth, and they shall curse
(2) [Beli]al there and all the spirits of his forces. And they shall say response: "Blessed is the God of Israel for all His holy purpose and His works of truth. And blessed are
(3) those who serve Him richteously, who know Him by faith.
(4) And cursed is Belial for his contentious purpose, and accursed for his reprehensible rule. And cursed are all the spirits of his lot for their wicked purpose.
(5) Accursed are they for all their filthy dirty service. For they are the lot of darkness, but the lot of God is light
(6) [eterna]l.

(7) Y[o]u are the God of our fathers. We bless Your name forever, for we are an [eter]na[l] people. You made a covenant with our fathers, and will establish it for their seed
(8) throughout the ages of eternity. In all the testimonies of Your glory there has been remembrance of Your [kindness] in our midst as an assistance to the remnant and the survivors for the sake of Your covenant
(9) and to re[count] Your works of truth and the judgments of Your wondrous strength. And You, [O God], created us for Yourself as an eternal people, and into the lot of light You cast us
(10) in accordance with Your truth. You appointed the Prince of Light from of old to assist us (...), for in [His] l[ot are all sons of righteous]ness and all spirits of truth are in his dominion. You yourself
(11) made Belial for the pit, an angel of malevolence, his [dominio]n is in darkne[ss] and his counsel is to condemn and convict. All the spirits
(12) of his lot -- the angels of destruction-- walk in accord with the rule of darkness, for it is their only [des]ire. But we, in the lot of Your truth, rejoice in
(13) Your mighty hand. We rejoice in Your salvation, and revel in [Your] hel[p and] Your [p]eace. Who is like You in strength, O God of Israel, and yet
(14) Your mighty hand is with the oppressed. What angel or prince is like You for [Your] effe[ctual] support, [fo]r of old You appointed for Yourself a day of gre[at battle ...]
(15) [...] to [sup]port truth and to destroy iniquity, to bring darkness low and to lend might to light, and to [...]
(16) [...] for an eternal stand, and to annihilate all the Sons of Darkness and bring joy to [al]l [the Sons of Light ...]
(17) [...]
(18) [... f]or You Yourself designated us for an app[ointed time ...]
(19) [...]
(20) [...]

(1) land He shall appoint their retribution with burning [...] those tested by the crucible. He shall sharpen the implements of war, and they shall not become blunt until [all the nations of] wickedness [come to an end].
(2) But, as for you, remember the judgment [of Nadab and Abi]hu, the sons of Aaron, by whose judgment God showed Himself holy before [all the people. But Eleazar]
(3) and Ithamar He preserved for Himself for an eternal covenant [ofpriesthood].

(4) But, as for you, take courage and do not fear them [... for] their end is emptine and their desire is for the void. Their support is without st[rength] and they do not [know that from the God] of
(5) Israel is all that is and that will be. He [...] in all which exists for eternity. Today is His appointed time to subdue and to humiliate the prince of the realm
(6) of wickedness. He will send eternal support to the company of His redeemed by the power of the majestic angel of the authority of Michael. By eternal light
(7) He shall joyfully light up the covenant of Israel peace and blessing for the lot of God, to exalt the authority of Michael among the gods and the dominion
(8) of Israel among all flesh. Righteousness shall rejoice on high, and all sons of His truth shall rejoice in eternal knowledge. But as for you, O sons of His covenant,
(9) take courage in God's crucible, until He shall wave His hand and complete His fiery trials; His mysteries concerning your existence."
(10) And after these words the priests shall blow for them a signal to form the divisions of the battle line. The columns shall be deployed at the sound of the trumpets,
(11) until each man has taken his station. Then the priests shall blow another signal on the trumpets, signs for confrontation. When
(12) the infa[ntry] has approached [the battle] line of the Kitt[im], within throwing range, each man shall raise his hand with his weapon. Then the priests shall blow on the trumpets
(13) of the slain [and the Levites and the al]l the people with rams' horns shall sound a signal for battle. The infantry shall attack the army
(14) of the Kittim, [and as the soun]d [of the si]gnal [goes forth], they shall begin to bring down their slain. Then all the people shall still the sound of the signal, while the priests
(15) continuously blow on [the trumpets of the slain], and the bat[tl]e p[revail]s against the K[ittim, and the troops of Belia]l are defeated before them.
(16) Thus in the th[ird] lot [...] to fall slain [...]

[abijah`]

His power/station is preliminary to any one else's, but he works in concert w/ 3 others and that plays into the number use of 4 and 7 (and by implication 3) in Revelation and some other corollary spots in scripture, like Dan. 12, I think.

I assume that you're referring to the four (or seven?) archangels?

Yeah I agree there's definitely a quorum/presidency/head-council of archangels, but I'm not sure yet how its all organised, who the angels are and what their function(s) are.

I like all the OT/apocrypha/myth references - shows how Revelation/ last days connect to pre-Atonement times and how widespread the understanding may have been throughout history.

Yeah, and 1 Enoch in particular was clearly heavily on the minds of NT authors (like Matthew, as just one noteworthy example), is explicitly quoted dozens of times, and suspiciously similar/alluding to it in plenty of other places. Helps one to form context. Some of which I think are quite significant, such as the Rev 14:4 example, where John is clearly making an important distinction, in presenting the forsworn watchers as being the foil/counterpart to the 144,000. Or when Jesus quotes the verse about Azazel, applying in the parable of the marriagefeast-garments.

Yeah, the shining wording associates them w/ apostles/saviors/ 1st resurrection (1 Ne. 1), I think.

Yeah.

I think we will be literally shining, like from off the skin. I suspect the transfigurations of Moses, of Elijah and of Jesus serve as an anticipatory type and premonition for even more grand things in the future, the transfiguration of the entirety of God's covenant people.

The "shining" concept within the scripture narrative has its origins with the Gen3 "serpent", the word nahash being a triple entendre, and is associated with the attribute of brightness/incandescence (as well as the name/title "Lucifer" of course).

It is related to spiritual beings, who in scriptures are correlated / paired-up w/ the shining celestial bodies from Day 4, who are to "govern" the nighttime and give off/reflect light.

D&C 85 7
And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

This is important, because it ultimately functions the category which scripture authors use to talk about what the destiny of the saints is -- to become "like the gods", "metamorphed" into the divine nature, made into "bene elohim" and the stars.

This is why the 144k vs watchers dichotomy plays a key theological role. The righteous ones who don't "defile themselves with women" end up replacing the forsworn, for which Enoch forms a type -- being born a mortal man who gets brought up to heaven, no longer mortal, in an angelic ascent; the angelic descent of the watchers down to (below) the earth, being originally from heaven, being the mirrored counterpart to Enoch, relegated from immortality to mortality.

We become "sons of God", and "stars of heaven".

1 Nephi 1
10 And he also saw twelve others following him, and their brightness did exceed that of the stars in the firmament.

John 1
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become sons of God

Genesis 22
And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD... I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven"

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book...
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

[abijah`]

this is crackers...

Doctrine & Covenants 85
And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong

• Dead Sea Scrolls
  Rise up, O Hero, take Your captives, O Glorious One, take Your plunder, O You who do valiantly. Lay Your hand upon the neck of Your enemies, and Your foot upon the backs of the slain.

Doctrine & Covenants 85
holding the scepter of power in his hand

• Dead Sea Scrolls
  In the hand of the Prince of Lights is the rule of all the Sons of Righteousness

Doctrine & Covenants 85
clothed with light for a covering

• Dead Sea Scrolls
  with a crown of glory, along with a garment of splendor in eternal light.

Doctrine & Covenants 85
whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words

• Dead Sea Scrolls
  to exalt the authority of Michael among the gods

Doctrine & Covenants 85
while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth

• Dead Sea Scrolls
  he is the spirit of truth, a fountain of light

Doctrine & Covenants 85
and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found

• Dead Sea Scrolls
  and into the lot of light You cast us in accordance with Your truth. You appointed the Prince of Light from of old to assist us, for in His lot are all sons of righteous]ness and all spirits of truth are in his dominion.

Doctrine & Covenants 85
and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

• Daniel 12
  At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people...at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

*brrrruuuuuuhhhh*

[Durzan]

So, Michael is the Davidic Servant? Hmmmm… what a twist.

[Cruiserdude]

So, Michael is the Davidic Servant? Hmmmm… what a twist.

Funny, innit?
I love reading through the different ideas and postulations and the 'revelations' and the theories about the Davidic Servant, the great forerunner for the King of Kings and Lord of Lords that is to prepare the way before the Lord's return....but I think to myself, (this might be why I like reading these Abijah posts so much -my bias lol), who would be more appropriate than the great archangel Michael?
Meshing some of our latter day stuff with scriptural stuff, could it be the great Michael is THE Davidic Servant and as such comes to receive the keys at Adam Ondi Ahman?

[BeNotDeceived]

So, Michael is the Davidic Servant? Hmmmm… what a twist.

It would appear thus:

... That is a huge difference. I can't help it if my story seems to say that I am the DS. That has been the people here that made that connection. I never heard of the DS before coming here. My interpretation was quite different. So people say I'm claiming to be the DS based on what they think my story indicates. And then they attack me for making a claim that I did not make. Now I agree my story seems to indicate I'm the DS but I have never made that claim. On occasion I have humored my story and played along as though I am the DS but I guess that is too deep a concept for some to understand. I do claim though that the supernatural has been and is active in my life and not in a small way. I've given plenty of examples of that ...

Thusly so, as per 4 or 5 earthquakes to date,
plus a plethora of #57 and name anomalies, as seen by those that see.

[Durzan]

Eh, personally I still ascribe to the Archangel Raphael being the Marred Servant/DS

[Luke]

Eh, personally I still ascribe to the Archangel Raphael being the Marred Servant/DS

Who is to say that the OMAS and the DS are necessarily the same person?

[heliocentr1c]

His power/station is preliminary to any one else's, but he works in concert w/ 3 others and that plays into the number use of 4 and 7 (and by implication 3) in Revelation and some other corollary spots in scripture, like Dan. 12, I think.

I assume that you're referring to the four (or seven?) archangels?

Yeah I agree there's definitely a quorum/presidency/head-council of archangels, but I'm not sure yet how its all organised, who the angels are and what their function(s) are.

I like all the OT/apocrypha/myth references - shows how Revelation/ last days connect to pre-Atonement times and how widespread the understanding may have been throughout history.

Yeah, and 1 Enoch in particular was clearly heavily on the minds of NT authors (like Matthew, as just one noteworthy example), is explicitly quoted dozens of times, and suspiciously similar/alluding to it in plenty of other places. Helps one to form context. Some of which I think are quite significant, such as the Rev 14:4 example, where John is clearly making an important distinction, in presenting the forsworn watchers as being the foil/counterpart to the 144,000. Or when Jesus quotes the verse about Azazel, applying in the parable of the marriagefeast-garments.

Yeah, the shining wording associates them w/ apostles/saviors/ 1st resurrection (1 Ne. 1), I think.

Yeah.

I think we will be literally shining, like from off the skin. I suspect the transfigurations of Moses, of Elijah and of Jesus serve as an anticipatory type and premonition for even more grand things in the future, the transfiguration of the entirety of God's covenant people.

The "shining" concept within the scripture narrative has its origins with the Gen3 "serpent", the word nahash being a triple entendre, and is associated with the attribute of brightness/incandescence (as well as the name/title "Lucifer" of course).

It is related to spiritual beings, who in scriptures are correlated / paired-up w/ the shining celestial bodies from Day 4, who are to "govern" the nighttime and give off/reflect light.

D&C 85 7
And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

This is important, because it ultimately functions the category which scripture authors use to talk about what the destiny of the saints is -- to become "like the gods", "metamorphed" into the divine nature, made into "bene elohim" and the stars.

This is why the 144k vs watchers dichotomy plays a key theological role. The righteous ones who don't "defile themselves with women" end up replacing the forsworn, for which Enoch forms a type -- being born a mortal man who gets brought up to heaven, no longer mortal, in an angelic ascent; the angelic descent of the watchers down to (below) the earth, being originally from heaven, being the mirrored counterpart to Enoch, relegated from immortality to mortality.

We become "sons of God", and "stars of heaven".

1 Nephi 1
10 And he also saw twelve others following him, and their brightness did exceed that of the stars in the firmament.

John 1
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become sons of God

Genesis 22
And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD... I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven"

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book...
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

I assume that you're referring to the four (or seven?) archangels?

Yeah I agree there's definitely a quorum/presidency/head-council of archangels, but I'm not sure yet how its all organised, who the angels are and what their function(s) are.

Yeah, initially there are 4 angels who have have number analogues to 4 beasts in Heaven and in hell/this earth as well as 4 colors/types of horses

D&C 77 and WoJS/TPJS- "Beasts of John's Revelation" help to flesh out the meaning of the 4 beasts, which I don't think are completely synonymous w/ the 4 angels but are overlapped in purpose.

I can't tell if the 4 angels make up the subsequent group of 7 angels or are just "derived" from it.

The tip-off to the identity of the 4 angels imo is understanding the spiritual/esoteric significance of the number itself and the phrase:

"And after these things, I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree"


The equivalency being: 4 angels, 4 winds (4 cardinal directions) and 4 corners of the earth; after which 3 elements of
creation are listed: earth, sea, trees -- going from 4 to 7 by adding 3.

First (in terms of the elements listed) the waters were gathered, then dry land emerged, then water and earth combined to form terrestrial plant life, w/ all elements of creation being formed in 7 stages or "days".

So by combining a presidency or group of 3 w/ 4 dimension/directions, from an additive approach, you get 7.

This is where understanding of myth and apocryphal texts/traditions comes in handy: The 4 directions/corners are associated w/ the 4 archangels of Heaven (among other things). Three of them are listed in D&C 128. The fourth can be inferred from myth. I had to have this all pointed out to me; but it is pretty hard to realize this imo unless you have adequate breadth and depth of scripture across the standard works as well as of apocrypha to be able to correlate it all.

Since no angels minister to this earth except those who have lived here according to JS, then, by logic, each archangel must have an earthly identity:

Michael's is obvious; Gabriel's slightly less so but still not too difficult if you know JS's teachings; and the remaining two are the more difficult, w/ the 4th being the hardest to work out I think.

Yeah, and 1 Enoch in particular was clearly heavily on the minds of NT authors (like Matthew, as just one noteworthy example), is explicitly quoted dozens of times, and suspiciously similar/alluding to it in plenty of other places. Helps one to form context.

I just consider the book of Enoch we have today to have originally been legitimate scripture but how authentic the surviving translation is I have no idea, hence the need for modern-day individuals w/ the gift of translation and seers/revelators, if we're ever going to get a known solid translation of it.

Yeah.

I think we will be literally shining, like from off the skin. I suspect the transfigurations of Moses, of Elijah and of Jesus serve as an anticipatory type and premonition for even more grand things in the future, the transfiguration of the entirety of God's covenant people.

The "shining" concept within the scripture narrative has its origins with the Gen3 "serpent", the word nahash being a triple entendre, and is associated with the attribute of brightness/incandescence (as well as the name/title "Lucifer" of course).

It is related to spiritual beings, who in scriptures are correlated / paired-up w/ the shining celestial bodies from Day 4, who are to "govern" the nighttime and give off/reflect light.

The shining is a literal indication of their glory for sure -- the more light they emit/reflect, the more difficult to bear to stand in their presence w/o a similar form of clothing, this way the light can be absorbed, reflected, and integrated instead of the lesser being "scattered" by the greater.

The day 4 connection is spot-on imo - the two greater lights are set and "birth"/look over this earth which correlates w/ other stars in this system. Those whose light exceeds the stars of the firmament are apostles or emissaries who can travel between a lesser glory and a greater, going back and forth, but they cannot save bc they are not the source, only reflections or emanations of it w/ some being able to borrow more or less light (some of Paul, some of Cephas, some of Jesus, etc.).

I had never realized the shining correlation w/ the word "serpent" specifically but now that you point it out that would make a lot of sense.

D&C 85 7
And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

This is important, because it ultimately functions the category which scripture authors use to talk about what the destiny of the saints is -- to become "like the gods", "metamorphed" into the divine nature, made into "bene elohim" and the stars.

This is why the 144k vs watchers dichotomy plays a key theological role. The righteous ones who don't "defile themselves with women" end up replacing the forsworn, for which Enoch forms a type -- being born a mortal man who gets brought up to heaven, no longer mortal, in an angelic ascent; the angelic descent of the watchers down to (below) the earth, being originally from heaven, being the mirrored counterpart to Enoch, relegated from immortality to mortality.

If you're connecting D&C 85:7 w/ the 144, to me, that's a good connection. Enoch's type and the angel from the east definitely seem to play a role. And there is this motif of those who were in the heavens in the first days being relegated to the bowels of the earth/hell and those on the earth in the last days being raised up to heaven.

The phrasing in D&C 85 is a partial re-phrase (or vice-versa) of D&C 121, indicating he has significant power in the PH, but not necessarily "authority" in terms of the world's perspective and is a type of Christ.

This suggests the general principle for identifying him was taught by Jesus:

"Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."

It seems like 5-10 yrs ago something like calling an election made sure or 10 tribes was very "exotic" doctrine but now I'd say speculation on the DS, the OM&S, etc is the most "exotic". Discussion of it has become polarizing at times imo, which is unfortunate, but I think it's interesting you're tackling it.

The "defiling themselves w/ women" phrasing is interesting bc it connotes the relationship w/ the great whore and therefore membership in the G&A church, which is a giant whore according to Nephi, accepting anyone except those who have the true testimony of Jesus whom they persecute. It denotes failure to maintain and live up to pure doctrine and binding ordinances causing them to 'whore' after other God's and seek signs (the fourth beast) on the one hand but those who have maintained themselves through pure doctrine to be sealed on the other to the bridegroom bc they are "virgins" worthy of being espoused (instead of floozies like those who whore around w/ strange doctrine that lacks any power to save). The fact that they are male virgins suggests the performance of outward PH ordinances to me but isn't necessarily literal imo.