Mormonism LIVE: 038: The Second Anointing

[BeNotDeceived]

Mormonism LIVE: 038: The Second Anointing

Mormon Discussions Inc.
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In Mormonism the very elite of membership including Stake Presidents, Mission Presidents, along with Seventies and the top 15 along with all their wives receive a secret ritual that confers to them that their "Calling and Election" has been made sure. What is this ritual? What do we know about it? How has the church framed it in their theology? and why do only a select few receive it? This and more on this week's episode.

search.php?keywords=38ii just because it's episode #38.
search.php?keywords=57ii just because 3.57 subscribers.

Squirrel, but not secret. dbnp

[ransomme]

I tried but these guys are just so annoying.

Can anyone name when this "ordinance" became a thing? How and who started it?

[inho]

I tried but these guys are just so annoying.

Can anyone name when this "ordinance" became a thing? How and who started it?

Joseph Smith started it.
This is a good article on the subject: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... N01_12.pdf

[HisWrathSoon]

Yes. It's a thing. But it doesn't mean anything. Just makes them feel more special.

[Mindfields]

It's a thing for the rich and the church broke. The rest of us really shouldn't even be aware that it exists.

[Original_Intent]

Yes. It's a thing. But it doesn't mean anything. Just makes them feel more special.

Yes, a "club" I have zero interest in joining. The LDS version of 33rd degree mason.

[XEmilyX]

So from what I know from someone who performed it, is that it's basically setting you up as a God. You cannot fall from this position if so you become a son of perdition. And if you do make mistakes it's worse than if you didn't have the second anointing. They used to do it alot more but the first presidency didn't allow it much anylonger. They usually give it to really old couples because the stakes are so high and they're less likely to do anything bad. I have been promised this ordinance when I get married. I believe you can only have it when you're married. But that's all I know about it, they didn't say much else.

[Durzan]

Its basically the ordinance that symbolizes having your calling and election made sure... at least from my limited understanding of it. Once it is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise and thus in effect, literally the only thing that will make you fall is Denying the Holy Ghost and/or murder.

[HisWrathSoon]

So from what I know from someone who performed it, is that it's basically setting you up as a God. You cannot fall from this position if so you become a son of perdition. And if you do make mistakes it's worse than if you didn't have the second anointing. They used to do it alot more but the first presidency didn't allow it much anylonger. They usually give it to really old couples because the stakes are so high and they're less likely to do anything bad. I have been promised this ordinance when I get married. I believe you can only have it when you're married. But that's all I know about it, they didn't say much else.

We don't need man to put their hands on our head and tell us we've been exalted.

[ransomme]

Its basically the ordinance that symbolizes having your calling and election made sure... at least from my limited understanding of it. Once it is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise and thus in effect, literally the only thing that will make you fall is Denying the Holy Ghost and/or murder.

Right, ordinances don't have power in and of themselves. The power comes from righteously fulfilling any covenants we make via ordinances. And if we don't live up to our end of the bargain then we have no promise.

D&C 82
10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

[TheDuke]

Wrath: Are you so sure that you don't need a man to give you all the ordinances? I do see that either JS and the OT and NT are either way off, or you do need a man to perform all ordinances for you. Perhaps you don't like the LDS leaders or men in general, and I'm not saying who, or mentioning temples or anything like that. But, Jesus taught you need to be at least baptized by a man (unless you're an El Liason and not under the law).

I don't personally know if the second anointing is necessary or real, but it seems god makes us come to this telestial sphere to get physical things done, test us, etc... If there is only marriage here and not in heaven, then someone has to perform this ordinance or ritual, or whatever god calls it. So, I think you are quite wrong in general.

[Mindfields]

The second anointing is just part of the show. A reward for those loyal to the church leaders in both word and deed. Especially those that donate financially. Your second anointing and a dollar will get you a large coffee at any McDonald's worldwide.

[TheDuke]

Mind: and you know this how? Opinion or revelation or scripture? As I said it seems there are at least some covenants required in mortality for eternity. I don't have a feeling on this one, but I do see that there are things that can be accomplished and things that can be sealed in this life. but, which are required, and for who (again I'm an MMP guy so only some things matter to each of us IMO).

[TheDuke]

I read the paper Inho linked above. I found it very good and one thing I saw that I had not thought of much was a reversal in logic from his perspective that JS saw kingdoms, dominions, principalities, kings, queens, etc.. as being lower than being parents in eternity. Maybe then JS is working through the 3 levels of CK line-upon-line?

Like: washings & anointings (or baptism of fire?) level 1, endowment level 2, 2nd anointing level 3?

[Original_Intent]

Wrath: Are you so sure that you don't need a man to give you all the ordinances? I do see that either JS and the OT and NT are either way off, or you do need a man to perform all ordinances for you. Perhaps you don't like the LDS leaders or men in general, and I'm not saying who, or mentioning temples or anything like that. But, Jesus taught you need to be at least baptized by a man (unless you're an El Liason and not under the law).

I don't personally know if the second anointing is necessary or real, but it seems god makes us come to this telestial sphere to get physical things done, test us, etc... If there is only marriage here and not in heaven, then someone has to perform this ordinance or ritual, or whatever god calls it. So, I think you are quite wrong in general.

He isn't.

Outward ordinances are a tool. I would say we don't get to exempt ourselves from the necessity of receiving them, but we can be exempted.
The outward ordinance is in most cases us bearing a special witness of entering into a covenant. Not that most if not all ordinances actually have people designated as witnesses who sign the baptismal document, or the sealing document, or whatever. And this is the regular order, that we take on the covenant and then the covenant is sealed on us via a spiritual ordinance that basically confirms that we have kept the covenant and are entitled to the blessing, and until that happens the physical ordinance is merely potential - it has no power of itself.
There are circumstances where the Holy Spirit of promise can seal an ordinance upon us which we have not yet received the physical ordinance. The physical ordinance then becomes - not necessarily optional, I would say each individual will know what to do in their own personal case.
And probably the ordinance that this most applies to is the 2bd anointing and Calling and Election. Why is this? Because all other ordinances you can seek and yes you must meet worthiness requirements but you can become worthy and seek the physical ordinance. With the 2nd anointing, it is dependent upon leaders contacting you and calling you to the temple to receive it. Which as has been stated is rarely done any more and one is usually extremely aged and/or in a position of high authority to receive it. In this situation, the Holy Spirit of promise may seal the blessing of Calling and Election Made Sure without the physical ordinance of 2nd anointing. God will never condition our progress upon the actions of another.

I hope that this is clear and helpful to you or anyone else reading.

[cyclOps]

Man is not bad. Of course Jesus Christ is the only way. When man is acting under Jesus’ authority and priesthood it falls under that umbrella. It is all possible because of Jesus. Without Him it would be just an ordinance performed by a man that means nothing. With Him, it is an ordinance performed by a man, acting under the authority and priesthood of Jesus Christ, and it is as if Jesus had done it himself. Jesus and God the Father do use mortal humans to help bring about their work and their glory.

Flesh is not evil in and of itself. One of the main reasons we came to earth, and of the blessings of keeping our first estate, is receiving a body of flesh and bone. Again, without Jesus, it would remain a mortal body, yet with Him, it will be a perfect body, still of flesh and bone however.

[HisWrathSoon]

Can I look up to the heavens and covenant with God? Would that be considered an ordinance directly from Him?

[TheDuke]

Original: I understand and agree. I had an ordination sealed upon me before the actual event. In this case however the Lord commanded me to accomplish the ordination and follow up. I don't know if it would have been ok without the ordination as the Lord first commanded me to the ordination (temples were not open normally). I didn't take it that the ordination can be skipped but that the order isn't always important.

Wrath: I think you can make whatever promised to god you want. But, there are somethings that must be done in his way, or the celestial way, and even god cannot alter the rules. Else, we wouldn't have this screwed up world. I have been through things in this life that the Lord says I am required to pass through to obtain my desired reward. I thought at first it was likely because of my weaknesses (still may be) but in a revelation with my Eternal Mother I learned that she and Father went through the same thing, like it is a right of passage at least in my eternal family.

[ransomme]

Can I look up to the heavens and covenant with God? Would that be considered an ordinance directly from Him?

An ordinance requires the priesthood to officiate. So unless God or a messenger comes to personally attend then....no.

Ever wonder why there is the creation story in Genesis/Book of Moses, and the book of Abraham? This was from their endowments. They were obviously ministered to by vision and God or by His angel(s)/messenger(s) and/or representative(s). Who knows, Abraham's may have been administered by Melchizedek.

[notjamesbond003.5]

This is the *Ordinance that made Tom Phillips' head explode and then he had a melt down and ran to John Dehlin etal.

njb

[BeNotDeceived]

This is the *Ordinance that made Tom Phillips' head explode and then he had a melt down and ran to John Dehlin etal.

njb

Kangaroo, but not court. dbnp

"This is a serious matter," Phillips said Wednesday in a phone interview. "If President Monson believes in the Book of Mormon, he will show up. If he has any concern for Mormons in Britain, he will show up. And if he doesn't show up, then an arrest warrant will be issued."

[TheDuke]

BTW what authority and how it is obtained seems to vary, either each time or each dispensation and level of authority. I mean PJJ put hands on JS for elder, then OC just ordains him PSR later. JtB comes and gives the permission to baptize each other, but doesn't do it himself. Not sure how Alma got any PH or anyone else in BoM for that matter, how did Lehi get it, wrong lineage (Amos as well, what about Samuel)?

Two questions arise then. First, what does god require (and can any errors be worked out in millennium yet have PH power now)? and Can god put someone in charge (for a time or dispensation, like JS, Moses, Abraham) and they get to decide given their circumstances. Moses used a tribe, and his brother's family, Abraham his eldest son (except when the birthright was to be swapped by intrigue), JS used organization and laying on of hands and picked a bunch of leaders (apostle) to decide who and pass it down, ostensibly following how Jesus had his apostles do it after he died.

But, it does seem the higher the ordinance is required (i.e. 3rd level of CK vs. Terrestrial kingdom) the more control is required and either higher or more managed authority. At this time the second anointing is at the top of the list and most controlled. And, it would seem that if it is real and required that there is not a way to make it work as it was implemented where a single man would decide for all, ok if you know everyone, or if you know someone who knows everyone (i.e. 1850's SPs) but with 16M people............................ it seems to break down and become unmanageable.

[darknesstolight]

Wrath: Are you so sure that you don't need a man to give you all the ordinances? I do see that either JS and the OT and NT are either way off, or you do need a man to perform all ordinances for you.

You are seeing stuff that's false. The scriptures don't allow you your false dichotomy

Aka, you are wrong.

...

[Luke]

Jesus taught you need to be at least baptized by a man

I agree. There have been exceptions however, where some people were under the necessity to baptise themselves

For example, Adam, Alma, Nephi

[darknesstolight]

BTW what authority and how it is obtained seems to vary, either each time or each dispensation and level of authority. I mean PJJ put hands on JS for elder, then OC just ordains him PSR later. JtB comes and gives the permission to baptize each other, but doesn't do it himself. Not sure how Alma got any PH or anyone else in BoM for that matter, how did Lehi get it, wrong lineage (Amos as well, what about Samuel)?

Two questions arise then. First, what does god require (and can any errors be worked out in millennium yet have PH power now)? and Can god put someone in charge (for a time or dispensation, like JS, Moses, Abraham) and they get to decide given their circumstances. Moses used a tribe, and his brother's family, Abraham his eldest son (except when the birthright was to be swapped by intrigue), JS used organization and laying on of hands and picked a bunch of leaders (apostle) to decide who and pass it down, ostensibly following how Jesus had his apostles do it after he died.

But, it does seem the higher the ordinance is required (i.e. 3rd level of CK vs. Terrestrial kingdom) the more control is required and either higher or more managed authority. At this time the second anointing is at the top of the list and most controlled. And, it would seem that if it is real and required that there is not a way to make it work as it was implemented where a single man would decide for all, ok if you know everyone, or if you know someone who knows everyone (i.e. 1850's SPs) but with 16M people............................ it seems to break down and become unmanageable.

What you are saying is nonsensical because we have reality, scriptures, witnesses, and each person can confirm this themselves that you don't need a ritual or another fallible human to seal you to heaven.

A human can't seal nothing to heaven.

No thing that a human CAN do seals them to heaven except trusting in the grace of Christ

There is no ritual or magical incantation or it's equivalent nor any rain dance or it's equivalent to get sealed.

God seals you by the Spirit. It is a heaven thing done by heaven with the power of heaven under the guidance and direction of heaven and their records are in perfect order and nothing is amiss only your thinking on this subject

...