Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven in JST Manuscript

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Luke
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Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven in JST Manuscript

Post by Luke »

What is the difference between the following?
  • Moses 6
    61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
  • <​Therefore​> <​it​> is given <​to abide in you​> the record of Heaven, the comforter, the <​keys of the kingdom of heaven​> the truth of all things that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things, that which knoweth all things, & hath all power, according <​to​> wisdom, mercy, truth, Justice, & Judgement.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ision-2/22

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ransomme
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Re: Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven in JST Manuscript

Post by ransomme »

That's interesting. To me, the revision makes the original more clear. "peaceable things" are nice and all but keys imply action, unlocking something. So if the comforter resides in you then you will then assumingly enter by the gate and continue on. That you have the spirit to unlock revelation, prophecy, and all the gifts of the spirit.

Peaceable things = keys: The peaceable things are the things that bring us true comfort/the comforter which helps to perfect us.

abijah`
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Re: Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven in JST Manuscript

Post by abijah` »

Personally I don't regard the JST authoritative. Especially since finding out a really crucial misinterpretation that you can pretty easily show (by cross analysis) how it is in fact the false rendering, as opposed to the true rendering of the original (the burning bush episode - "angel" vs "presence"). And that's just one example, there's a good number of other instances that are seriously suspect, and moreover generally speaking, its pretty often the JST reads clunky and out-of-place within the context to me, and just basically like something that does't seem like how the author would have put things, or said to begin with.

Nomanknowsmyname
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Re: Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven in JST Manuscript

Post by Nomanknowsmyname »

abijah` wrote: August 13th, 2021, 10:47 pm Personally I don't regard the JST authoritative. Especially since finding out a really crucial misinterpretation that you can pretty easily show (by cross analysis) how it is in fact the false rendering, as opposed to the true rendering of the original (the burning bush episode - "angel" vs "presence"). And that's just one example, there's a good number of other instances that are seriously suspect, and moreover generally speaking, its pretty often the JST reads clunky and out-of-place within the context to me, and just basically like something that does't seem like how the author would have put things, or said to begin with.
Well, the JST was never intended to convey the words of the earliest manuscripts. The JST is essentially inspired commentary, and was not meant to replace the KJV (although the KJV does have its limitations), which is at least one reason why the JST as a whole is not considered to be one of the standard works. There are instances where I prefer the original KJV over the JST; but in my opinion the example you cited is not problematic.

And as they lifted up their hands upon me, that they might offer me up and take away my life, behold, I lifted up my voice unto the Lord my God, and the Lord hearkened and heard, and he filled me with the vision of the Almighty, and the angel of his presence stood by me, and immediately unloosed my bands; (Abraham 1:15)

The explanation for Figure 1 from Facsimile 1 is "The Angel of the Lord", which clearly demonstrates that the angel of the Lord is the angel of the Lord's presence.

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. (Isa. 63:9)

In the preceding verse the angel of the Lord is referred to as the "angel of his presence". As a messenger of the Lord he serves as a conduit whereby (to some degree or another) the Lord's glory is manifested to those to whom he ministers, and I'm okay with the idea that one who beholds the Lord's glory also (in a sense) beholds his presence.

abijah`
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Re: Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven in JST Manuscript

Post by abijah` »

Nomanknowsmyname wrote: August 15th, 2021, 4:11 pm
Well, the JST was never intended to convey the words of the earliest manuscripts. The JST is essentially inspired commentary, and was not meant to replace the KJV (although the KJV does have its limitations), which is at least one reason why the JST as a whole is not considered to be one of the standard works. There are instances where I prefer the original KJV over the JST; but in my opinion the example you cited is not problematic.

And as they lifted up their hands upon me, that they might offer me up and take away my life, behold, I lifted up my voice unto the Lord my God, and the Lord hearkened and heard, and he filled me with the vision of the Almighty, and the angel of his presence stood by me, and immediately unloosed my bands; (Abraham 1:15)

The explanation for Figure 1 from Facsimile 1 is "The Angel of the Lord", which clearly demonstrates that the angel of the Lord is the angel of the Lord's presence.

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. (Isa. 63:9)

In the preceding verse the angel of the Lord is referred to as the "angel of his presence". As a messenger of the Lord he serves as a conduit whereby (to some degree or another) the Lord's glory is manifested to those to whom he ministers, and I'm okay with the idea that one who beholds the Lord's glory also (in a sense) beholds his presence.
Yes, I'm not so much saying that the JST change rendered the verse technically inaccurate, since "presence" is still in the same inner`web of connected ideas, but I'd say that it does obscure things, and was unnecessary, and my supposing is that had Joseph known the less-conspicuous literary themes and leitmotifs throughout the OT narrative, he would have seen the reason for why it was "angel" for deliberate purpose.

There is a recurring theme of the "Angel of YHWH" showing up, and in the verbiage of the text, having his identity be deliberately blurred with that of the YHWH Himself. I made a topic about it.

The word for "presence" is likewise the word for "face(s)", and you are correct in quoting Abraham and Isaiah 63 who are explicit in the connection w/ the Lord's angel.

This personage is the "Angel of Faces", the Angel of the Presence, and the "face" motif doesn't pop up in Isaiah from a vacuum. The Angel of Faces gets the title for a reason

Genesis 32
And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day...

So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”

Genesis 16
The angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness...

So she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, “You are a God of seeing,” for she said, “Truly here I have seen him who looks after me.”

Judges 6
Then Gideon perceived that he was the angel of the LORD. And Gideon said, “Alas, O Lord GOD! For now I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face."

So coming to Exodus 3, all the groundwork has already been laid, we already know who this angel is.

And the reason why cancelling out "angel" is bad, is because it disrupts the divinity-blurring leitmotif I mentioned (when the Angel gets purposely blurred w/ God Himself).

Examples (beginning w/ the burning bush)

Exodus 3 (first gets called an "angel" standing in the bush, then its "the Lord" who's in the bush)
There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from within a bush...
When the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”

Genesis 32:24-24;29 (first gets called "a man"; then gets called "God"):
And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day.
When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him...
...Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him.
So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”

Genesis 48:15-16 (first gets called "God" of my fathers; then gets called "the angel who has redeemed me"):
And he blessed Joseph and said, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day,
the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, may he bless the boys...

Image
Joshua 5 (first gets called "a man"; then gets called "captain of YHWH's host" and worshipped
When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us, or for our adversaries?”
And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?”
And the commander of the LORD’s army said to Joshua, “Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.

Judges 6 (first gets called "angel of the LORD"; then gets called "the LORD")
And the angel of the LORD appeared to him and said to him, “The LORD is with you, O mighty man of valour..."
And the LORD turned to him and said, “Go in this might of yours and save Israel from the hand of Midian; do not I send you?”

So my point is - there's this entire theme of the Angel who also gets called "God", and Joseph changing the term to "presence" unwarrantedly obscures this literary technique the authors and editors of the scriptures intentionally put there (unless you're arguing they were incorrect in their edits, which would be an entirely different situation).

Its kind of an important subject, considering this personage = the davidic herald of the last days. So its definitely no place to sow unwarranted/unjustified ambiguity or falsehood.

Circling back to my original argument, that if Joseph being unaware of these literary strands of ideas, its just another evidence that his notations aren't necessarily authoritative imo

hyloglyph
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Re: Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven in JST Manuscript

Post by hyloglyph »

Luke wrote: August 13th, 2021, 6:02 pm What is the difference between the following?
  • Moses 6
    61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
  • <​Therefore​> <​it​> is given <​to abide in you​> the record of Heaven, the comforter, the <​keys of the kingdom of heaven​> the truth of all things that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things, that which knoweth all things, & hath all power, according <​to​> wisdom, mercy, truth, Justice, & Judgement.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ision-2/22

Nice catch.

Is this relating having the Holy Ghost to having keys?

Nomanknowsmyname
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Posts: 108

Re: Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven in JST Manuscript

Post by Nomanknowsmyname »

abijah` wrote: August 17th, 2021, 6:55 pm
Nomanknowsmyname wrote: August 15th, 2021, 4:11 pm
Well, the JST was never intended to convey the words of the earliest manuscripts. The JST is essentially inspired commentary, and was not meant to replace the KJV (although the KJV does have its limitations), which is at least one reason why the JST as a whole is not considered to be one of the standard works. There are instances where I prefer the original KJV over the JST; but in my opinion the example you cited is not problematic.

And as they lifted up their hands upon me, that they might offer me up and take away my life, behold, I lifted up my voice unto the Lord my God, and the Lord hearkened and heard, and he filled me with the vision of the Almighty, and the angel of his presence stood by me, and immediately unloosed my bands; (Abraham 1:15)

The explanation for Figure 1 from Facsimile 1 is "The Angel of the Lord", which clearly demonstrates that the angel of the Lord is the angel of the Lord's presence.

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. (Isa. 63:9)

In the preceding verse the angel of the Lord is referred to as the "angel of his presence". As a messenger of the Lord he serves as a conduit whereby (to some degree or another) the Lord's glory is manifested to those to whom he ministers, and I'm okay with the idea that one who beholds the Lord's glory also (in a sense) beholds his presence.
Yes, I'm not so much saying that the JST change rendered the verse technically inaccurate, since "presence" is still in the same inner`web of connected ideas, but I'd say that it does obscure things, and was unnecessary, and my supposing is that had Joseph known the less-conspicuous literary themes and leitmotifs throughout the OT narrative, he would have seen the reason for why it was "angel" for deliberate purpose.

There is a recurring theme of the "Angel of YHWH" showing up, and in the verbiage of the text, having his identity be deliberately blurred with that of the YHWH Himself. I made a topic about it.

The word for "presence" is likewise the word for "face(s)", and you are correct in quoting Abraham and Isaiah 63 who are explicit in the connection w/ the Lord's angel.

This personage is the "Angel of Faces", the Angel of the Presence, and the "face" motif doesn't pop up in Isaiah from a vacuum. The Angel of Faces gets the title for a reason

Genesis 32
And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day...

So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”

Genesis 16
The angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness...

So she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, “You are a God of seeing,” for she said, “Truly here I have seen him who looks after me.”

Judges 6
Then Gideon perceived that he was the angel of the LORD. And Gideon said, “Alas, O Lord GOD! For now I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face."

So coming to Exodus 3, all the groundwork has already been laid, we already know who this angel is.

And the reason why cancelling out "angel" is bad, is because it disrupts the divinity-blurring leitmotif I mentioned (when the Angel gets purposely blurred w/ God Himself).

Examples (beginning w/ the burning bush)

Exodus 3 (first gets called an "angel" standing in the bush, then its "the Lord" who's in the bush)
There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from within a bush...
When the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”

Genesis 32:24-24;29 (first gets called "a man"; then gets called "God"):
And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day.
When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him...
...Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him.
So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”

Genesis 48:15-16 (first gets called "God" of my fathers; then gets called "the angel who has redeemed me"):
And he blessed Joseph and said, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day,
the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, may he bless the boys...

Image
Joshua 5 (first gets called "a man"; then gets called "captain of YHWH's host" and worshipped
When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us, or for our adversaries?”
And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?”
And the commander of the LORD’s army said to Joshua, “Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.

Judges 6 (first gets called "angel of the LORD"; then gets called "the LORD")
And the angel of the LORD appeared to him and said to him, “The LORD is with you, O mighty man of valour..."
And the LORD turned to him and said, “Go in this might of yours and save Israel from the hand of Midian; do not I send you?”

So my point is - there's this entire theme of the Angel who also gets called "God", and Joseph changing the term to "presence" unwarrantedly obscures this literary technique the authors and editors of the scriptures intentionally put there (unless you're arguing they were incorrect in their edits, which would be an entirely different situation).

Its kind of an important subject, considering this personage = the davidic herald of the last days. So its definitely no place to sow unwarranted/unjustified ambiguity or falsehood.

Circling back to my original argument, that if Joseph being unaware of these literary strands of ideas, its just another evidence that his notations aren't necessarily authoritative imo
The angel of the Lord (or messenger of the Lord) appears to be the foremost representative and agent of Jehovah; he acts in the name of Christ just as Christ acts in the name of the Father. There's nothing mysterious or surprising about the fact that the angel of the Lord is sometimes referred to as a man or messenger, and sometimes referred to as God or Jehovah. I don't think the JST obscures this at all, and I tend to think that Joseph assumed that his intended audience would understand this. I see no reason not to believe that this is why Joseph called the angel of the Lord the "presence" of the Lord, or 'face' of the Lord. In general, the JST seems to emphasizes the significance of the Davidic servant more than the KJV (see JST, Matt. 17:10–14 and JST, Isa. 42:19-23). The Davidic servant is the (right) "hand" of the Lord, the "arm" of the Lord, the "mouth" of the Lord and "voice" of the Lord. I see no reason why he cannot also be the 'presence' or 'face' of the Lord. In my opinion the primary purpose of the JST is not to make the Bible easier to understand, which is why I always read the JST, the KJV, and oftentimes a modern translation in side-by-side fashion to investigate the parallels between them.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven in JST Manuscript

Post by BeNotDeceived »

hyloglyph wrote: August 17th, 2021, 8:35 pm
Luke wrote: August 13th, 2021, 6:02 pm What is the difference between the following?
  • Moses 6
    61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
  • <​Therefore​> <​it​> is given <​to abide in you​> the record of Heaven, the comforter, the <​keys of the kingdom of heaven​> the truth of all things that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things, that which knoweth all things, & hath all power, according <​to​> wisdom, mercy, truth, Justice, & Judgement.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ision-2/22
Nice catch ... Is this relating having the Holy Ghost to having keys?
Iff you believe in the JST, then YES if both paragraphs are true, the one statement is equivalent to the other. search.php?keywords=JSTii Is a KWii dedicated to exploring stuff about the JST.

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Enoch
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Re: Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven in JST Manuscript

Post by Enoch »

Luke wrote: August 13th, 2021, 6:02 pm What is the difference between the following?
  • Moses 6
    61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
  • <​Therefore​> <​it​> is given <​to abide in you​> the record of Heaven, the comforter, the <​keys of the kingdom of heaven​> the truth of all things that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things, that which knoweth all things, & hath all power, according <​to​> wisdom, mercy, truth, Justice, & Judgement.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ision-2/22
Wow, thanks for sharing! The Spirit of God has the keys, power and authority, it is truth and light.
1 Nephi 10
[11] Messiah, who should come, and after he had been slain he should rise from the dead, and should make himself manifest, by the Holy Ghost, unto the Gentiles.

[17] he spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on the Son of God -- and the Son of God was the Messiah who should come -- I, Nephi, was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him,

[19] For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost

[22] And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.
Alma 39
[5] Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?
[6] For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.
DC 36
And I will lay my hand upon you by the hand of my servant Sidney Rigdon, and you shall receive my Spirit, the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which shall teach you the peaceable things of the kingdom;
DC 39
And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.
68
And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

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Re: Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven in JST Manuscript

Post by BeNotDeceived »


My bad, this is for z Pearl of Great Price which is likely true scripture, whereas the JSTii, likely is a key confusion brought about by the Father of Lies. Me copy of Joseph in the Gap will hopefully help identify where truths end, and counterfeits begin. :geek:

abijah`
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Re: Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven in JST Manuscript

Post by abijah` »

Nomanknowsmyname wrote: August 18th, 2021, 1:50 am The angel of the Lord (or messenger of the Lord) appears to be the foremost representative and agent of Jehovah; he acts in the name of Christ just as Christ acts in the name of the Father.
Sure.
There's nothing mysterious or surprising about the fact that the angel of the Lord is sometimes referred to as a man or messenger, and sometimes referred to as God or Jehovah.
Wrong, its one of the biggest mysteries in the entirety of the scriptures, and was deliberately crafted to be so. This particular mystery might, for the time present, only be discussed in fringe, niche environments like this. But that will very much change when the awareness and debate of these things comes to the forefront, world stage.
I don't think the JST obscures this at all
No, it definitely does obscure it. If it reads "presence of the Lord" rather than angel, then there's no definitive clarification that there is a second personage involved (the angel). The literary strategy/leitmotif of the angel who's identity simultaneously overlaps with as well as is distinct from YHWH Himself would not work here if it was rendered "presence" in place of "angel".
and I tend to think that Joseph assumed that his intended audience would understand this
K, well, reference? I don't think Joseph knew this stuff, let alone expected others just to implicitly understand these things. Where do you get this idea from, its not like we have any record of Joseph teaching this or anything even adjacent to it.
I see no reason not to believe that this is why Joseph called the angel of the Lord the "presence" of the Lord, or 'face' of the Lord.


Ok, well I also see no reason to suggest he was aware of this stuff.

If he knew about the identity-themes of malakh`Jhwh, then why pick "presence"? Literally all it does is introduce more ambiguity than "angel".

If it was "presence", there would be no more scriptural justification to interpret there being two divine personages at the burning bush. There would only be room in the text for The Lord to be the only one there.
In general, the JST seems to emphasizes the significance of the Davidic servant more than the KJV (see JST, Matt. 17:10–14 and JST, Isa. 42:19-23).
I disagree. Isaiah 42 is just one more example of interpretations that don't really sit well with me. I think its plenty likely and altogether plausible that there are reasons why God would make/call his servant "blind", there could be good reasons for not seeing the same apparition as everyone else does.
The Davidic servant is the (right) "hand" of the Lord, the "arm" of the Lord, the "mouth" of the Lord and "voice" of the Lord.
yep.
I see no reason why he cannot also be the 'presence' or 'face' of the Lord.
Yeah... i'm not arguing he that he isn't/can't be. He is the Angel of the Presence/Angel of Faces. I literally went on and on trying to demonstrate that point in my last post.

Nomanknowsmyname
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Re: Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven in JST Manuscript

Post by Nomanknowsmyname »

abijah` wrote: August 18th, 2021, 3:04 pm
Nomanknowsmyname wrote: August 18th, 2021, 1:50 am The angel of the Lord (or messenger of the Lord) appears to be the foremost representative and agent of Jehovah; he acts in the name of Christ just as Christ acts in the name of the Father.
Sure.
There's nothing mysterious or surprising about the fact that the angel of the Lord is sometimes referred to as a man or messenger, and sometimes referred to as God or Jehovah.
Wrong, its one of the biggest mysteries in the entirety of the scriptures, and was deliberately crafted to be so. This particular mystery might, for the time present, only be discussed in fringe, niche environments like this. But that will very much change when the awareness and debate of these things comes to the forefront, world stage.
I don't think the JST obscures this at all
No, it definitely does obscure it. If it reads "presence of the Lord" rather than angel, then there's no definitive clarification that there is a second personage involved (the angel). The literary strategy/leitmotif of the angel who's identity simultaneously overlaps with as well as is distinct from YHWH Himself would not work here if it was rendered "presence" in place of "angel".
and I tend to think that Joseph assumed that his intended audience would understand this
K, well, reference? I don't think Joseph knew this stuff, let alone expected others just to implicitly understand these things. Where do you get this idea from, its not like we have any record of Joseph teaching this or anything even adjacent to it.
I see no reason not to believe that this is why Joseph called the angel of the Lord the "presence" of the Lord, or 'face' of the Lord.


Ok, well I also see no reason to suggest he was aware of this stuff.

If he knew about the identity-themes of malakh`Jhwh, then why pick "presence"? Literally all it does is introduce more ambiguity than "angel".

If it was "presence", there would be no more scriptural justification to interpret there being two divine personages at the burning bush. There would only be room in the text for The Lord to be the only one there.
In general, the JST seems to emphasizes the significance of the Davidic servant more than the KJV (see JST, Matt. 17:10–14 and JST, Isa. 42:19-23).
I disagree. Isaiah 42 is just one more example of interpretations that don't really sit well with me. I think its plenty likely and altogether plausible that there are reasons why God would make/call his servant "blind", there could be good reasons for not seeing the same apparition as everyone else does.
The Davidic servant is the (right) "hand" of the Lord, the "arm" of the Lord, the "mouth" of the Lord and "voice" of the Lord.
yep.
I see no reason why he cannot also be the 'presence' or 'face' of the Lord.
Yeah... i'm not arguing he that he isn't/can't be. He is the Angel of the Presence/Angel of Faces. I literally went on and on trying to demonstrate that point in my last post.
I don't know what you're getting at. If you think there's some great mystery behind these things, then you might as well tell us what it is. The name of the Lord is in the angel of the Lord. The angel of the Lord is Jehovah's ideal vassal, so that he has taken upon himself the name of the Lord to a superlative degree. I do not see why you find it strange that the angel of the Lord is sometimes referred to as the Lord. When one acts in the name of another individual to the same degree that the angel of the Lord acts in the name of Christ, one effectively is that other individual while acting in one's capacity as an extension of the individual whom one represents.

As far as the JST is concerned, Joseph actually expected us to seriously study and ponder the scriptures. I'm sure you're aware of the fact that Joseph and those who attended the school of the prophets studied Hebrew. I think it is entirely reasonable to think that Joseph would have realized that 'panim' has multiple meanings.

I don't know why you're hung up on the JST of Isaiah 42; as I've already said, the JST does not supersede the literal text. The JST is not the official, authoritative text of the Bible, nor did anybody of any significance (as far as I know) ever claim that it was. Of course the Lord is calling his servant blind in Isaiah 42:19; but in this instance the Lord is not referring to his ideal vassal, but to his collective servant, Jacob/Israel.

8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. (Isa. 41:8-9)

Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. (Isa. 44:21)

Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. (Isa. 43:10)

For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (Isa. 45:4)

Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye, The Lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob. (Isa. 48:20)

1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. (Isa. 49:1-3)

In the preceding passage from Isaiah 49 the Lord is simultaneously referring to his singular servant, and to his collective servant, Jacob/Israel. The Davidic servant represents Israel, because he is a king of Israel (just as Christ is a king of Israel), and more particularly a king of Zion. However, these verses refer to the state of Israel and her king after Israel has received her king, at which point Israel is no longer "deaf" and "blind". The JST correctly contrasts the Lord's collective and singular servants during a time prior to the awakening of Zion while preserving the idea of Israel's blindness and deafness found in the original text. One could argue that Joseph Smith did not know that Isaiah referred to Jacob/Israel as the Lord's collective "servant"; but I find this very unlikely since Joseph would have read Isaiah 41 shortly before translating Isaiah 42.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven in JST Manuscript

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Weird that the study guide for Moses 6:48-68 completely skips verse 61.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 8?lang=eng

search.php?keywords=JSTii is a KWii intended to find posts about the Joseph Smith Translation of z Bible. JSTms may work for Manuscript.

POGP may also work for the Pearl of Great Price, to differentiate posts as appropriate.

It’s still not clear to me, why there are two different paragraphs representing verse 61, and the study guide skipped it? Abraham 4:18, and Moses 5:8 are a couple of me favorite verses, so I’m hopeful the POGP is truly scripture. Me copy of Joseph in the Gap hasn’t yet shipped, but it’s currently me best hope of resolving me current conundrum.

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