11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. 12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?TrueFaith wrote: ↑July 19th, 2021, 6:34 amUtter nonsense. The New Testament is the word of God, all of it. We should be following and obeying every word. The idea that some verses are simply to be ignored is pure speculation and excuse-making via logic twisted sophistry because it doesn't conform to modern worldly standards.Nomanknowsmyname wrote: ↑July 19th, 2021, 12:51 am1) Once again, you are effectively putting words in Nibley's mouth. If Nibley ever said anything that even remotely suggested that having long hair is an indication that one does not take care of one's body I have not read it, and you have failed to provide any evidence to the contrary.TrueFaith wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 5:13 pm1) I was quoting Nibley because he discusses in great length that God has commanded that we take care of the temporal if we want to be allowed to care of the spiritual. This doctrine is repeated in many places in Scripture. If you cannot even take care of your own body, how can God expect you to take care of his Kingdom?Nomanknowsmyname wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 4:17 pm
Show me where Hugh Nibley said that long hair constituted corruption of the body. Nibley was speaking about the Word of Wisdom (which has nothing to do with long hair or beards), and for some reason you are using his words (which have nothing to do with long hair or beards) to justify your own non-doctrinal opinions, even though it has already been shown that Nibley did not share your opinions. I do find it humorous that this statement by Nibley contains an allusion to a statement by Brigham Young. Are you really trying to invoke Brigham Young in order to justify the idea that long hair or a beard are indicative of physical and spiritual corruption? We all know what Brigham Young would think about that. Also, Michael D. Rhodes (who has a rather extensive beard) was a long-time colleague of Hugh Nibley, and co-authored Nibley's book "One Eternal Round" (which was published after Nibley's death, and which many consider to be Nibley's magnum opus). You can see Michael D. Rhodes' beard in this recent video:
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. (Matt. 23:24-28)
". . . God has said that the inward vessel shall be cleansed first, and then shall the outer vessel be cleansed also." (Alma 60:23)
Observance of the Word of Wisdom directly affects the internal state of one's physical body, and can have discernable secondary effects that are outwardly apparent. It is not true, however, that having long hair or a beard affects or is a result of one's spiritual state, although the appearance of one's hair can say a lot about one's physical health. I currently have a beard (which happens to be much, much shorter than Michael D. Rhodes' beard). I will gladly shave it off if you can convince me that it is an abomination in the Lord's sight.
And just to be clear, I don't agree with everything Nibley has said. He clearly had some wacky false doctrinal ideas.
2) I never said I had a problem with beards.
3) You're saying 1 Corinthians 11 is my "non doctrinal opinion". Think about that a bit more.
4) "It is not true, however, that having long hair or a beard affects or is a result of one's spiritual state".
Ever hear of Samson?
Here is the bottom line. Most here seem to think that throwing out passages of New Testament doctrine is justified. God, through the Apostle Paul (who saw the Resurrected Christ) has commanded men to not wear long hair.
"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?"
Paul says it's so obviously wrong that even nature teaches it. Long hair in men is as unnatural as gay sex and crossdressing.
You can rage and gnash your teeth against God's word all you like, but you WILL be held accountable for it. God does judge us for our outward actions and dress and for disregarding scripture.
2) Fair enough.
3) It is an indisputable fact that not everything that Paul ever wrote in his epistles represents the mind and will of the Lord. We know that this is the case because Paul and the Lord told us in scripture that this was the case.
5 Wherefore, for this cause the apostle wrote unto the church, giving unto them a commandment, not of the Lord, but of himself, that a believer should not be united to an unbeliever; except the law of Moses should be done away among them,
6 That their children might remain without circumcision; and that the tradition might be done away, which saith that little children are unholy; for it was had among the Jews;
7 But little children are holy, being sanctified through the atonement of Jesus Christ; and this is what the scriptures mean. (D&C 74:5-7)
But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. (1 Cor. 7:6)
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. (1 Cor. 7:12-14)
39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
40 But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.
(1 Cor. 7:39-40)
8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
10 And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago. (2 Cor. 8:8-10)
There are many things that are a matter of policy rather than doctrine.
4) Yes, I have heard of Samson. Samson allowed his hair to be cut although he was a Nazarite.
5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines. (Judges 13:5)
17 That he told her all his heart, and said unto her, There hath not come a razor upon mine head; for I have been a Nazarite unto God from my mother’s womb: if I be shaven, then my strength will go from me, and I shall become weak, and be like any other man. (Judges 16:17)
The fact that Samson was supposed to have long hair hardly supports your case. Also, Samson's strength was not derived from his hair; he received strength through his obedience to his vows.
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
Porter Rockwell has been thought of as a modern-day Samson, and many members of the Church have erroneously believed that the Lord protected him because he grew his hair long. This is what Joseph Smith actually said to him:
“I prophesy, in the name of the Lord, you—Orrin Porter Rockwell—so long as ye shall remain loyal and true to thy faith, need fear no enemy. Cut not thy hair, and no bullet or blade can harm thee.”
Porter Rockwell's hair was already long prior to this statement by Joseph Smith. Porter had decided to let his hair grow as a token of the covenants he had made. Many years later Porter's hair was cut so that it could be used to create a wig for the widow of Don Carlos Smith, who had lost all her hair due to typhoid fever. Not surprisingly, Porter was not punished by the Lord for cutting his hair, because he had not broken any covenants. Porter had voluntarily decided to let his hair grow as a token of his covenants; and when his hair was cut it was only to perform an act of service.
5) As for everything else:
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. (1 Cor. 11:5-6)
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (1 Cor. 14:34-35)
Verse 35 goes beyond saying that women should remain silent in church; it essentially says that women should not attend church at all except to partake of the sacrament. Do you agree with this?
"I am not quite so strenuous as some of the ancients were, who taught that if the women wanted to learn anything, to learn it at home from their husbands. (1 Cor. 14:34-35) I am willing they should come to the meetings and learn, but some of the ancients proscribed them in this privilege, and would confine them at home to learn through their husbands." (Brigham Young, JD 1:67)
If I am under condemnation for not believing that absolutely everything Paul ever said was the infallible word of God, and that it is to be rigidly applied by all members of Christ's church and at all times, then you must also believe that Brigham Young is under condemnation.
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. (1 Cor. 14:1-5)
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. (1 Cor. 14:39)
If it is better to prophesy than to speak in tongues, and if speaking in tongues is not to be forbidden (so long as there is an interpreter, see 1 Cor. 14:27-28), then why would prophesying be forbidden (see 1 Cor. 11:5)?
Paul says long hair goes against "nature". You think nature only applies to the Romans or a single audience Paul was speaking to?
You simply make things up. It says no such thing about women not taking the sacrament or not attending church.
Claiming a man's heart is evil because his hair is longer is ridiculous.
You should follow all of the New Testament