Would such an act fall under taking scripture from God lightly? If someone who attempted to do this (but failed) also lost 116 pages worth of material of said scripture due to a pattern of behavior desiring to please men around him, how much more foolish/disrespectful does it look to attempt to sell the copyright of scripture to a government of Babylon?
Would you hand-wave away behavior like this if it happened long ago while screaming apostasy if the "brethren", the 15 "prophets, seers and revelators" did something like this today?
Apostasy in the Book of Mormon movement has happened, but it happened a long time ago and so many live in darkness being unwilling to look at the Book of Mormon due to it being handcuffed to a fallen seer.
But the work of the Father will heal this book and when it causes the Lamanite remnant to awake to a remembrance of who they are, it will not make Joseph Smith or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints look "correct" or look like they were "in the right all along". It will expose a fallen servant and a secret combination set up to get gain
"Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church."
It was never supposed to be about making some exclusive church. The Book of Mormon transcends that but is handcuffed to belonging to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and other/all break-offs from the Joseph Movement.
If you didn't quite get the message or get the warning to the world (particularly the United States) as you saw the rise and fall of the Nepthites (and a succinct summary of the Jaredites to cap it off at the end of the book) through pride, wickedness and secret combinations corrupting a plot of land, you can see this same lesson in the work and history surrounding the seer that Jehovah used to translate the record. Secret combinations, pride, love for money, love for pleasure, refusal to accept criticism, all ruined the fallen servant, culminating in a lie about being a lamb to the slaughter.
Christ wasn't fighting back on the cross. Stephen didn't go out slinging rocks at those killing him through stoning. Abinadi stood straight up and was burned alive, not fighting back at all. Going out killing people in a gun fight (being in that mess in the first place due to your own making) as they seek to kill you is not a lamb to the slaughter situation.
The truth will set you free.
Would you call selling the copyright of scripture from God to Babylon for money, "building up a church to get gain"?
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TheDuke
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 5911
- Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs
Re: Would you call selling the copyright of scripture from God to Babylon for money, "building up a church to get gain"?
once again black and white, JS was perfect or fallen. I have pondered and prayed about Hyrum's attempt (he did convince Joseph to agree) to sell the copyright. It was obviously wrong, meaning the leaders (specifically Hyrum and Joseph) goofed up. But god set them straight again after they repented (see David Whittmer Pamplet for more insight). I have said all along, other than Jesus, no man has ever been perfect. And the more spiritual responsibility you have the more Satan has power to challenge you. So, JS being close to god also had great fights with the adversary. He often failed. Then he repented and did the Lord's work. The cycle seemed to repeat a few times. Hence the quagmire of issues left behind. He was neither perfect nor fallen, I have a strong testimony of that.
However, of interest is how David Whittmer says the revelations (as received) were all true (at the time), perhaps some have been poorly documented or altered intentionally or unintentionally. However, saying one mistake early on destroyed the LDS legacy is very false, just look at the fruits.
However, of interest is how David Whittmer says the revelations (as received) were all true (at the time), perhaps some have been poorly documented or altered intentionally or unintentionally. However, saying one mistake early on destroyed the LDS legacy is very false, just look at the fruits.
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NewEliza
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1991
Re: Would you call selling the copyright of scripture from God to Babylon for money, "building up a church to get gain"?
It’s not black and white.
Consider another scenario
In the preexistance, an extremely valiant and faithful man had progressed through enough mortalities that he had ascended to a low type of godhood. He had successfully lived righteous lives and served God well. For the next mortality, he was chosen specifically and particularly to fill a vital and essentially important role that he was prepared for and had earned. However, he would forget everything he knew when he went to earth for that calling, and he would live once again as a mortal. So this man was born and was gifted from a young age with particular traits and abilities and visions. He was a righteous and pious man, but still a man. Being mortal he made many mistakes. Being chosen and guided by God, he was protected and given an amount of leeway due to his calling and election being made sure. He was commanded to do incredibly hard things and was granted glimpses into the heaven in which he once dwelled. Though he had character flaws and some typical mortal traits, he fulfilled his mission. He was innocent of evil. He was martyred and sealed his sacred (but not perfect) mission with his blood and now ascends once again to a higher throne. Death cannot conquer that hero again. And soon enough he will return with the savior and with the ancient of days.
Now consider that man. Did losing the 116 pages make him an eternal failure? No. But not dissimilar to Christ when he questioned if gods way WAS in fact the only way, he briefly became scared at the prospect of what was before him, and instead of trusting God the first time, he made an error.
A very small error. An error God had literally accounted for hundreds of years prior.
That man you talk so poorly about is more than a man. He is more than a measly old prophet. He has done more for your and my pathetic souls than any other mortal man on this entire planet. He never harmed God. He never committed an abominable sin. He lived a life of divine service and was constantly visited by visions, angels, Gods, and glory. He knew more about heaven than any other mortal man who has ever stepped foot on this rock. His claims of the Book of Mormon are all true, and his warnings are all true. Who cares if abinadi faced his death with more “courage” than Joseph did (in your opinion). Joseph is miles above Abinidi, Stephen, Peter, James, John, Abraham Isaac and Jacob. They will all pass by him on their way to the Saviors judgement.
I don’t know why you hate him so much, but I would recommend that you stop.
That is my testimony.
Consider another scenario
In the preexistance, an extremely valiant and faithful man had progressed through enough mortalities that he had ascended to a low type of godhood. He had successfully lived righteous lives and served God well. For the next mortality, he was chosen specifically and particularly to fill a vital and essentially important role that he was prepared for and had earned. However, he would forget everything he knew when he went to earth for that calling, and he would live once again as a mortal. So this man was born and was gifted from a young age with particular traits and abilities and visions. He was a righteous and pious man, but still a man. Being mortal he made many mistakes. Being chosen and guided by God, he was protected and given an amount of leeway due to his calling and election being made sure. He was commanded to do incredibly hard things and was granted glimpses into the heaven in which he once dwelled. Though he had character flaws and some typical mortal traits, he fulfilled his mission. He was innocent of evil. He was martyred and sealed his sacred (but not perfect) mission with his blood and now ascends once again to a higher throne. Death cannot conquer that hero again. And soon enough he will return with the savior and with the ancient of days.
Now consider that man. Did losing the 116 pages make him an eternal failure? No. But not dissimilar to Christ when he questioned if gods way WAS in fact the only way, he briefly became scared at the prospect of what was before him, and instead of trusting God the first time, he made an error.
A very small error. An error God had literally accounted for hundreds of years prior.
That man you talk so poorly about is more than a man. He is more than a measly old prophet. He has done more for your and my pathetic souls than any other mortal man on this entire planet. He never harmed God. He never committed an abominable sin. He lived a life of divine service and was constantly visited by visions, angels, Gods, and glory. He knew more about heaven than any other mortal man who has ever stepped foot on this rock. His claims of the Book of Mormon are all true, and his warnings are all true. Who cares if abinadi faced his death with more “courage” than Joseph did (in your opinion). Joseph is miles above Abinidi, Stephen, Peter, James, John, Abraham Isaac and Jacob. They will all pass by him on their way to the Saviors judgement.
I don’t know why you hate him so much, but I would recommend that you stop.
That is my testimony.
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Subcomandante
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4428
Re: Would you call selling the copyright of scripture from God to Babylon for money, "building up a church to get gain"?
I wouldn't call Joseph Smith perfect. Only Jesus Christ has that title. But he definitely is the best blood by far of those that lived in the 19th century.
It is very interesting that he has a very similar setup to Mohammed. And even in how the religion evolved after the death of the founding prophet. The one difference being that in the case of Islam, they essentially set themelves up for failure the moment they declared that there were no future prophets after Mohammed and then their splits into Sunni, Shia, and the different schools that came from those.
I haven't really seen Mormonism splinter in the same way that Islam did. There was the danger that that would happen, but Brigham and John Taylor really stepped up in such a way that their prophetic witness was there for all to see. Even after them you had others come in like David McKay and Ezra Taft Benson, among others. I do cut some slack for Russell Nelson simply because this is a changing world and if the Church spoke about the current woke generation like Spencer Kimball did or his uncle J Golden it would have been canceled long ago.
Did any of you guys see the missionary broadcast today? I thought there were some very good points therein.
It is very interesting that he has a very similar setup to Mohammed. And even in how the religion evolved after the death of the founding prophet. The one difference being that in the case of Islam, they essentially set themelves up for failure the moment they declared that there were no future prophets after Mohammed and then their splits into Sunni, Shia, and the different schools that came from those.
I haven't really seen Mormonism splinter in the same way that Islam did. There was the danger that that would happen, but Brigham and John Taylor really stepped up in such a way that their prophetic witness was there for all to see. Even after them you had others come in like David McKay and Ezra Taft Benson, among others. I do cut some slack for Russell Nelson simply because this is a changing world and if the Church spoke about the current woke generation like Spencer Kimball did or his uncle J Golden it would have been canceled long ago.
Did any of you guys see the missionary broadcast today? I thought there were some very good points therein.
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Luke
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 10811
- Location: England
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latterdayloco
- captain of 100
- Posts: 151
Re: Would you call selling the copyright of scripture from God to Babylon for money, "building up a church to get gain"?
If Joseph Smith fell out of favor with the Father, then what chance do I have?
Moses disobeyed God on several occasions and was not allowed to lead the Israelites to the promised land because of it. However he still possessed the keys of the gathering of Israel and was transfigured in order to give these keys to Peter, James, and John and then later to Joseph. He is one of the main figures of the restoration of the gospel being a very important person in God’s plan.
Some of us grossly underestimate the extent of God’s forgiveness.
Moses disobeyed God on several occasions and was not allowed to lead the Israelites to the promised land because of it. However he still possessed the keys of the gathering of Israel and was transfigured in order to give these keys to Peter, James, and John and then later to Joseph. He is one of the main figures of the restoration of the gospel being a very important person in God’s plan.
Some of us grossly underestimate the extent of God’s forgiveness.
