Another historical revision – Hyrum Smith’s missing anti-polygamy discourse from April 1844

[cab]

Sorry, but this is going to be a 3 part post… It’s long, but it’s worth the read.

1st post – introduction

2nd post – Hyrum Smith’s original talk from April 8 1844 where he speaks strongly against any doctrine of multiple wives

3rd post – Hyrum Smith’s highly edited talk published in the History of the Church Volume E

Introduction
At a General Conference in April 1844 (less than 3 months before his martyrdom), Hyrum Smith gave this discourse. In it, he addresses the many rumors swirling around about men preaching about having multiple wives or spiritual wifery. He speaks in about as strong as language as possible against anyone having more than one wife or anyone preaching any such thing. While he does acknowledge that he was eternally sealed to both his late-wife Jerusha and to his current wife, he nonetheless makes it very clear that he only has only one wife living and that no one can have more than one wife at a time.

To the Elders he calls having multiple wives a "damn fool doctrine" and "if any brother hears any person preach such stuff wring his nose". To the sisters he says, "If I was a woman, and got so fooled I would hide my head.”

What's fascinating about this is that the History of the Church Volume E publishes this discourse but gives a VERY scrubbed down version of what he actually said - completely avoiding the entire subject of multiple wives.

This can be added to the growing list of historical revisions to Joseph and Hyrum’s words within the "History of the Church" Volumes (prepared a decade after their deaths in the mid-1850s) which either adds pro-polygamy language when it wasn't there originally OR removes text that was originally anti-polygamy in the contemporaneous original source.

I need to post the entire talk here because the text can only be found in the original handwriting or in a HUGE full transcript version of the manuscript History draft…

It’s a fascinating find that I had never seen this before - and had to dig for it because it is truly buried.

[cab]

Original talk given on April 8, 1844

https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org ... f1d32/0/32

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... transcript


President Hyrum Smith called the Conference to order at 25 min. to 4 <​P. M.​> and said:—
It is a matter of consequenee that the Elders of Israel should know when they go to preach to be like Paul— to give a reason for the hope of their calling; and if— man men cannot vindicate his their cause he they would be like the ostrich— hide <​their​> head. One reason I speak to the Elders is, in consequence of the Ten thousand reports which come to me from abroad— almost every foolish man runs to me, to enquire if such and such things are true, and how many spiritual wives a man may have. I know nothing about it; what he might call a spiritual wife, I should not know anything about. In about half an hour after he has gone, another person begins to say: “the Elders tell such and such things all over the country.” I am authorized to tell you from henceforth, that any man who comes in and tells any such damn fool doctrine, to tell him to give up his license. None but a fool teaches such stuff; the devil himself is not such a fool, and every Elder who teaches such stuff ought to have his nose wrung; any one found guilty of such teaching will be published and his license will be taken from him. When Elders are sent to preach the Gospel, they are not to preach anything but the Gospel, if they wish to shew themselves approved and not fools, like the old man who went to preach such wonderful things, old dad<​dy​> Matthews the Tinman. I wish the Elders of Israel to understand it is lawful for a man to marry a wife, but it is unlawful to have more, and God has not commanded any of you to have more; and if any of you dare to presume to do any such things, it will spoil your fun, for you will never have the spirit to preach the Gospel. I despise a man who teaches a pack of stuff that will disgrace himself so; for a man to go into the world, and talk of this spiritual wife system he is as empty as an open sepulchre. If the coat suits any one, let him put it on. I would call the Devil my brother before such a man. The idea of marrying for eternity is the seal of the Covenant, and is easily understood; and as to speaking of it I could make all the world believe it, for it is noble and grand; it is necessary in consequence of the broken Covenants in the world. I never saw any scripture but what was written by Prophets to instruct and prepare mankind for eternity. I read that what God joins together let no man put asunder. I see magistrates and Priests in the world, but not one who is empowered to join together by the authority of God. nor yet have I seen any priest that dare say that he has the authority of God; there is not a sectarian Priest in Christendom that dare say he has the authority by direct revelation from God. When I look at the seal of the new Covenant and reflect that all the covenants made by the authority of man are only made to be in force during the natural life, and end there I rejoice that what is done by the Lord has an endless duration. No marriage is valid in the morn of the resurrection unless the marriage Covenant be sealed on earth by one having the keys and power from the Almighty God to seal on earth, and it shall be bound in heaven. Such a sealing will have full effect in the morn of the resurrection. Almost every principle that is communicated to us is made to have an evil effect through the foolishness of some who seek to build up themselves, and destroy the truth of which they are ignorant. O ye foolish Elders ye are only sent into the world to preach the first principles of the Gospel, faith, repentance, baptism for the remission of sins, and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. All the mysteries are to be taught in Nauvoo where they can be taught so as to be understood. No spiritual wife doctrine ever originated with me. God Almighty has given to us by Revelation a plan of salvation, redemption, and deliverance, and the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood. Under the Constitution of the Almighty God, every thing <​rightfully and lawfully​> belongs to man if he fulfils the stipulated conditions; and if a thing belongs to me legally it cannot belong to any one else. I married me a wife, and I am the only man who has any right to her. We had five children; the covenant was made for our lives. She fell into the grave before God shewed us His order. God has shewn me that the covenant is dead, and had no more force, neither could I have her in the resurrection, but we should be as the Angels:— it troubled me. Brother Joseph said you can have her sealed to you upon the same principle as you can be baptized for the dead. I enquired what can I do for my second wife? He replied you can also make a covenant with her for eternity and have her sealed to you by the authority of the Priesthood. I named the subject to my present wife, and she said “I will act as proxy for your wife that is dead and I will be sealed to you for eternity myself for I never had any other husband. I love you and I do not want to be separated from you nor be for ever alone in the world to come.” If there is any man that has no more sense, and will make a base story of such a fact, his name shall be published <​What honest man or woman can find fault with such a doctrine as this. None​> It is a doctrine not to be preached to the world; but to the Saints who have obeyed the gospel and gathered to Zion. It is glad tidings of great joy. The Lord has given to Joseph the power to seal on earth and in heaven those who are found worthy; having the Spirit of Elijah and Elias he has power to seal with a seal that shall never be broken, and it shall be in force in the morn of the resurrection. Talk about spiritual wives! One that is dead and gone is spiritual. We will come up in the morn of the resurrection; and every soul that is saved will receive an eternal increase of glory. Will you believe this, (loud shouts of aye) Every great and good principle should be taught to the Saints, but some must not be taught to the world; until they are prepared to receive them; it would be like casting pearls before swine. [blank]963 <​No man must attempt​> to preach them. I believe every good man should have one wife in this life, and I know if I had two I should not know what to do with them; they might quarrel about me, and I might get a whipping. One is enough, and I warn all of you not to attempt it; if a man should begin to find you out, you would get into some cell in Alton. Be careful what you teach; if you say anything one thousand miles off, it comes here. There are God’s spirits and the Devil’s spirits, and some carry it. If any man preach any false doctrine I shall disgrace him. God has commanded you to preach repentance to this generation; if this generation will not receive this Book of Mormon they will have no greater; the remaining portion is too strong for the people. The world has no faith; you are not commanded to preach any thing but the first principles of the gospel. There are many things that are good and great to the Saints. Get the wife sealed to you that God and your country let you have, and if any brother hears any person preach such stuff wring his nose but look out or he may be stouter than you. No man would have more than one wife or they will join together and beat him. If I was a woman, and got so fooled I would hide my head. I give the sisters leave to wring his nose to teach such stuff; I’ll bear you out in it; give him justice. If I can’t get you clear W[illiam] W. Phelps and the Constitutional Congress can. Why don’t you teach what God tells you to teach, and tell nothing more; remember the young Prophet who prophesied against the altar of Jereboam, and who afterwards got decoyed away, and was devoured by the lion. Just do what you are told to do; the day of choosing and anointing is nigh at hand, and every man who does his duty will have his endowment. A man who preaches anything contrary to what he is told, will not be blessed or anointed or endowed. It is the power of God that is going to convert the world; and nothing but the power of God. Every man who knows me knows that I have taught these principles from the beginning. Brother Hyrum will live twenty years hence, and you will then find that I have spoken the truth. It is as much as you can do to get the people to repent. We calculate to send out about one thousand of you— put one thousand Elders together and you can raise a heaven on earth, and you will have a great deal of knowledge. We want every Elder to be successful to bring his ten, and when the house is dedicated we want to send out about ten thousand, in about a year and a half. The Savior was kind and merciful to the publicans and harlots, and it requires Elders to have purity and virtue. We are in a different dispensation; it is the honest and pure in heart that will hearken to the everlasting covenant; they are those who are noble and good; they that give you food, and clothe you. We want the honest in heart— the virtuous— the noble; we want the good seed gathered here. Let all men repent, and the Elders gather out the good seed, and bring it to Nauvoo. We want you to understand that if you preach any thing wrong, you will be published. We don’t want bogus makers, counterfeiters, or preachers of the spiritual wife system. We shall see the wicked flee when no man pursueth. I want you to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Preach principles that will stand the test of ages; teach them good principles, and save souls. There is not so much difference in the world as you may suppose; take away their prejudices, and you will find them nearly like yourselves. Go forth as men of God— be wise— and you will find good friends wherever you go; drink deep of the Spirit of Truth; a great and mighty work shall be wrought in the world, they are only waiting to hear the truth. Have a well ordered life and a godly conversation, when thousands and tens of thousands shall flock to the standard, and go up to Zion. Why? because they are good souls. Have the knowledge of truth drove into you like a broadside. I am serious in what I say, and it has the power of God with it.”
Spoke an hour and a half.
Sidney Rigdon concurred in his remarks.
12 min. to 6, adjourned to april 9, at 8 a. m.

[cab]

Scrubbed version of the talk reported in Church History Volume E

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... df37f4ac70

​1844 April 8.​> President Hyrum Smith called the conference to order at 25 minutes to 4 p. m., and spoke to the Assembly one hour and a half.
He treated upon the subject of the Elders preaching abroad. He said it was a matter of consequence that the Elders of Israel should know what they were about when they go to preach the gospel— They should, like Paul, be ready to give a reason for the hope of their calling. When they are sent to preach the gospel, they should preach the gospel and nothing else, if they wish to stand approved themselves. The Elders are sent into the world to preach faith, repentance, baptism for the remission of sins, and the laying on of hands for the reception of the Holy Ghost, and they should let the mysteries alone. God has commanded you to preach repentance to this generation, and if this generation will not receive the first principles of the gospel and the Book of Mormon they will receive nothing greater— Just go and do as you are told and God will bless you. It is the power of God that is going to convert the world and nothing but the power of God. Every man who knows me knows that I have taught these principles from the beginning. It is the honest and pure in heart that will hearken to the Everlasting Covenant, they are those who are noble and good they will feed and clothe you and receive your testimony and we want the Elders to gather out the good seed to Nauvoo. The day will come when you will see the wicked free when no man pursueth— I want you to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves— preach principles that will stand the test of ages— teach them good precepts and save souls— go forth as men of God and you will find friends wherever you go— Drink deep of the spirit of truth and a great and mighty work shall be wrought in the world— Hundreds and tens of thousands shall flock to the standard and go up to Zion. Many other remarks were made by the speaker.
After which Sidney Rigdon made a few remarks and concurred in what Bro Hyrum had said.
12 min to 6 adjourned to April 9th at 8 o’clock a. m.

[Cruiserdude]

..... I'm not listening!....

tenor (8).gif (188.96 KiB) Viewed 1850 times

[AGoodGlobalCitizen]

The truth is out there. I'm praying it will release and destroy the lies of Mormonism history

[Luke]

I read this ages ago. Did you read his comment about a wife in Heaven and one on earth though? He said both will belong to him in the next life

[LDS Watchman]

It seems that the original account of this talk was already "scrubbed." He spoke for an hour and a half and the original account only takes a couple of minutes to read.

In all seriousness, this talk wasn't scrubbed at all. Circumstances had changed. The endowment, sealing, and even plural marriage were not available to the general church membership when Hyrum gave this talk, but they were by the time the Church History was compiled. Therefore, there was no longer a reason for the missionaries not to teach these things to investigators as Hyrum had suggested. Which is why they were removed from the short summary of his hour and a half long talk.

[simpleton]

Sorry, but this is going to be a 3 part post… It’s long, but it’s worth the read.

1st post – introduction

2nd post – Hyrum Smith’s original talk from April 8 1844 where he speaks strongly against any doctrine of multiple wives

3rd post – Hyrum Smith’s highly edited talk published in the History of the Church Volume E

Introduction
At a General Conference in April 1844 (less than 3 months before his martyrdom), Hyrum Smith gave this discourse. In it, he addresses the many rumors swirling around about men preaching about having multiple wives or spiritual wifery. He speaks in about as strong as language as possible against anyone having more than one wife or anyone preaching any such thing. While he does acknowledge that he was eternally sealed to both his late-wife Jerusha and to his current wife, he nonetheless makes it very clear that he only has only one wife living and that no one can have more than one wife at a time.

To the Elders he calls having multiple wives a "damn fool doctrine" and "if any brother hears any person preach such stuff wring his nose". To the sisters he says, "If I was a woman, and got so fooled I would hide my head.”

What's fascinating about this is that the History of the Church Volume E publishes this discourse but gives a VERY scrubbed down version of what he actually said - completely avoiding the entire subject of multiple wives.

This can be added to the growing list of historical revisions to Joseph and Hyrum’s words within the "History of the Church" Volumes (prepared a decade after their deaths in the mid-1850s) which either adds pro-polygamy language when it wasn't there originally OR removes text that was originally anti-polygamy in the contemporaneous original source.

I need to post the entire talk here because the text can only be found in the original handwriting or in a HUGE full transcript version of the manuscript History draft…

It’s a fascinating find that I had never seen this before - and had to dig for it because it is truly buried.

Well senor, you have made the case for polygamy, or rather you quoted Hyrum making the case. And to me, if it is good in heaven, or "legal" in heaven then it is also legal on earth. But, the wicked usurper rules and wickedness reigns. But not for long as his time is just about up, but, he will seal up his followers and God will rescue His saints.
And a day soon cometh when those that are left will see eye to eye. In the meantime, we will continue to squabble and battle over most everything of doctrine, as, we all look at life through our own dark glasses.

But when that day comes this will be fulfilled:
Isaiah:
And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth [shall be] excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

And it shall come to pass, [that he that is] left in Zion, and [he that] remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, [even] every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory [shall be] a defence.

And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.

We will argue all the day long what Isaiah is talking about. As for me, it is as plain and simple as can be and speaks for itself.

But as for now, the daughter's of Zion are filthy, and the sons of Zion are even worse. But at least the daughters of Zion get cleansed and washed, but the sons of Zion get mostly killed off.

[EvanLM]

why would anyone need more than one wife in the celestial kingdom?
answer: to populate so many worlds. Really? So when a woman is perfect she will need 9 months to produce a spirit? hmmmmmm

Why else would anyone need more than one wife?
answer: . . . crickets. . . .

[EvanLM]

When Abraham received his covenants then he repented of cultural polygamy and sent Hagar away. When Hagar came back then she was ONLY Sarah's handmaid.

Please, don't interpret Isaiah your OWN way to prove polygamy. You do not know what this scripture means and remember "the bible as far as it was translated correctly."

[Luke]

When Abraham received his covenants then he repented of cultural polygamy and sent Hagar away. When Hagar came back then she was ONLY Sarah's handmaid.

And yet he also had numerous concubines up until his death. Nice try though.

[Luke]

why would anyone need more than one wife in the celestial kingdom?
answer: to populate so many worlds. Really? So when a woman is perfect she will need 9 months to produce a spirit? hmmmmmm

Why else would anyone need more than one wife?
answer: . . . crickets. . . .

silly people. . . .fools

Yes we are just so obviously silly and foolish, silly us...

Look at William Law's satirical Poem mocking Joseph's teachings:

• There you may shine like mighty Gods,
  creating worlds so fair.
  At least a world for every wife
  that you take with you there.
  
  The man that has got ten fair wives,
  Ten worlds he may create;
  And he that has got less than this,
  Will find a bitter fate.
  
  ("Buckeye's Lamentation for Want of More Wives", Warsaw Message, 7 February 1844)
  

In line with the Adam-God Doctrine, Eve is the Mother of this world, while Adam's other wives will be the Mothers of other ones

[Lexew1899]

I didn’t know he was sealed to two women. Interesting find.

[cab]

Sorry, but this is going to be a 3 part post… It’s long, but it’s worth the read.

1st post – introduction

2nd post – Hyrum Smith’s original talk from April 8 1844 where he speaks strongly against any doctrine of multiple wives

3rd post – Hyrum Smith’s highly edited talk published in the History of the Church Volume E

Introduction
At a General Conference in April 1844 (less than 3 months before his martyrdom), Hyrum Smith gave this discourse. In it, he addresses the many rumors swirling around about men preaching about having multiple wives or spiritual wifery. He speaks in about as strong as language as possible against anyone having more than one wife or anyone preaching any such thing. While he does acknowledge that he was eternally sealed to both his late-wife Jerusha and to his current wife, he nonetheless makes it very clear that he only has only one wife living and that no one can have more than one wife at a time.

To the Elders he calls having multiple wives a "damn fool doctrine" and "if any brother hears any person preach such stuff wring his nose". To the sisters he says, "If I was a woman, and got so fooled I would hide my head.”

What's fascinating about this is that the History of the Church Volume E publishes this discourse but gives a VERY scrubbed down version of what he actually said - completely avoiding the entire subject of multiple wives.

This can be added to the growing list of historical revisions to Joseph and Hyrum’s words within the "History of the Church" Volumes (prepared a decade after their deaths in the mid-1850s) which either adds pro-polygamy language when it wasn't there originally OR removes text that was originally anti-polygamy in the contemporaneous original source.

I need to post the entire talk here because the text can only be found in the original handwriting or in a HUGE full transcript version of the manuscript History draft…

It’s a fascinating find that I had never seen this before - and had to dig for it because it is truly buried.

Well senor, you have made the case for polygamy, or rather you quoted Hyrum making the case. And to me, if it is good in heaven, or "legal" in heaven then it is also legal on earth. But, the wicked usurper rules and wickedness reigns. But not for long as his time is just about up, but, he will seal up his followers and God will rescue His saints.
And a day soon cometh when those that are left will see eye to eye. In the meantime, we will continue to squabble and battle over most everything of doctrine, as, we all look at life through our own dark glasses.

But when that day comes this will be fulfilled:
Isaiah:
And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth [shall be] excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

And it shall come to pass, [that he that is] left in Zion, and [he that] remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, [even] every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory [shall be] a defence.

And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.

We will argue all the day long what Isaiah is talking about. As for me, it is as plain and simple as can be and speaks for itself.

But as for now, the daughter's of Zion are filthy, and the sons of Zion are even worse. But at least the daughters of Zion get cleansed and washed, but the sons of Zion get mostly killed off.

If you believe this makes the case for polygamy, it just shows how willing you are to twist words to fit your story.

Hyrum couldn’t be much more clear. He’d call the devil a brother before those who make the case for multiple wives.

[cab]

I read this ages ago. Did you read his comment about a wife in Heaven and one on earth though? He said both will belong to him in the next life

So? How is that the same as having multiple wives to bed with here?

Twist his words all you want. Hyrum and Joseph consistently and emphatically rejected and denied any practice of having more than one wife at a time.

[cab]

It seems that the original account of this talk was already "scrubbed." He spoke for an hour and a half and the original account only takes a couple of minutes to read.

In all seriousness, this talk wasn't scrubbed at all. Circumstances had changed. The endowment, sealing, and even plural marriage were not available to the general church membership when Hyrum gave this talk, but they were by the time the Church History was compiled. Therefore, there was no longer a reason for the missionaries not to teach these things to investigators as Hyrum had suggested. Which is why they were removed from the short summary of his hour and a half long talk.

Yep, things sure did change. But I choose to believe Hyrum and Joseph at their word.

Twist his words all you want. Hyrum and Joseph consistently and emphatically rejected and denied any practice of having more than one wife at a time.

[Silver Pie]

Sorry, but this is going to be a 3 part post… It’s long, but it’s worth the read.

1st post – introduction

2nd post – Hyrum Smith’s original talk from April 8 1844 where he speaks strongly against any doctrine of multiple wives

3rd post – Hyrum Smith’s highly edited talk published in the History of the Church Volume E

Introduction
At a General Conference in April 1844 (less than 3 months before his martyrdom), Hyrum Smith gave this discourse. In it, he addresses the many rumors swirling around about men preaching about having multiple wives or spiritual wifery. He speaks in about as strong as language as possible against anyone having more than one wife or anyone preaching any such thing. While he does acknowledge that he was eternally sealed to both his late-wife Jerusha and to his current wife, he nonetheless makes it very clear that he only has only one wife living and that no one can have more than one wife at a time.

To the Elders he calls having multiple wives a "damn fool doctrine" and "if any brother hears any person preach such stuff wring his nose". To the sisters he says, "If I was a woman, and got so fooled I would hide my head.”

What's fascinating about this is that the History of the Church Volume E publishes this discourse but gives a VERY scrubbed down version of what he actually said - completely avoiding the entire subject of multiple wives.

This can be added to the growing list of historical revisions to Joseph and Hyrum’s words within the "History of the Church" Volumes (prepared a decade after their deaths in the mid-1850s) which either adds pro-polygamy language when it wasn't there originally OR removes text that was originally anti-polygamy in the contemporaneous original source.

I need to post the entire talk here because the text can only be found in the original handwriting or in a HUGE full transcript version of the manuscript History draft…

It’s a fascinating find that I had never seen this before - and had to dig for it because it is truly buried.

What he said ought to be in the scriptures.

[cab]

Sorry, but this is going to be a 3 part post… It’s long, but it’s worth the read.

1st post – introduction

2nd post – Hyrum Smith’s original talk from April 8 1844 where he speaks strongly against any doctrine of multiple wives

3rd post – Hyrum Smith’s highly edited talk published in the History of the Church Volume E

Introduction
At a General Conference in April 1844 (less than 3 months before his martyrdom), Hyrum Smith gave this discourse. In it, he addresses the many rumors swirling around about men preaching about having multiple wives or spiritual wifery. He speaks in about as strong as language as possible against anyone having more than one wife or anyone preaching any such thing. While he does acknowledge that he was eternally sealed to both his late-wife Jerusha and to his current wife, he nonetheless makes it very clear that he only has only one wife living and that no one can have more than one wife at a time.

To the Elders he calls having multiple wives a "damn fool doctrine" and "if any brother hears any person preach such stuff wring his nose". To the sisters he says, "If I was a woman, and got so fooled I would hide my head.”

What's fascinating about this is that the History of the Church Volume E publishes this discourse but gives a VERY scrubbed down version of what he actually said - completely avoiding the entire subject of multiple wives.

This can be added to the growing list of historical revisions to Joseph and Hyrum’s words within the "History of the Church" Volumes (prepared a decade after their deaths in the mid-1850s) which either adds pro-polygamy language when it wasn't there originally OR removes text that was originally anti-polygamy in the contemporaneous original source.

I need to post the entire talk here because the text can only be found in the original handwriting or in a HUGE full transcript version of the manuscript History draft…

It’s a fascinating find that I had never seen this before - and had to dig for it because it is truly buried.

What he said ought to be in the scriptures.

Let’s start a petition that it become Section 139 of the D&C

[cab]

why would anyone need more than one wife in the celestial kingdom?
answer: to populate so many worlds. Really? So when a woman is perfect she will need 9 months to produce a spirit? hmmmmmm

Why else would anyone need more than one wife?
answer: . . . crickets. . . .

silly people. . . .fools

Yep. You’re not calling them fools. Hyrum is.
“damn fool doctrine”
“None but a fool teaches such stuff”

[LDS Watchman]

I choose to believe Hyrum and Joseph at their word.

What you mean is, that you choose to believe that their carefully worded public denials of spiritual wivery and adultery trump the mounds and mounds of evidence which show that they were secretly practicing and teaching plural marriage.

Twist his words all you want. Hyrum and Joseph consistently and emphatically rejected and denied any practice of having more than one wife at a time.

I'm not twisting their words at all. I simply view these carefully worded public denials of spiritual wivery and adultery in light of all the available evidence, rather than twisting (or rejecting) all evidence which doesn't agree with what I want to believe.

It's simply not true that "Hyrum and Joseph consistently and emphatically rejected and denied any practice of having more than one wife at a time."

In fact in this very talk, Hyrum literally says that in heaven he will have two wives at the same time. The testimonies of witnesses abound which say that Hyrum and Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage secretly.

You know this is true. You simply choose to reject all the evidence you don't like.

[cab]

I choose to believe Hyrum and Joseph at their word.

What you mean is, that you choose to believe that their carefully worded public denials of spiritual wivery and adultery trump the mounds and mounds of evidence which show that they were secretly practicing and teaching plural marriage.

Twist his words all you want. Hyrum and Joseph consistently and emphatically rejected and denied any practice of having more than one wife at a time.

I'm not twisting their words at all. I simply view these carefully worded public denials of spiritual wivery and adultery in light of all the available evidence, rather than twisting (or rejecting) all evidence which doesn't agree with what I want to believe.

It's simply not true that "Hyrum and Joseph consistently and emphatically rejected and denied any practice of having more than one wife at a time."

In fact in this very talk, Hyrum literally says that in heaven he will have two wives at the same time. The testimonies of witnesses abound which say that Hyrum and Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage secretly.

You know this is true. You simply choose to reject all the evidence you don't like.

I absolutely reject “the evidence” and it’s not because I don’t like it. I used to believe the “evidence”.

But now I believe Joseph and Hyrum.

They denied it. Every time.

And I don’t believe they crafted carefully worded lies.

To continue to accuse them means you are lining up with the accusers.

[LDS Watchman]

I absolutely reject “the evidence” and it’s not because I don’t like it. I used to believe the “evidence”.

But now I believe Joseph and Hyrum.

They denied it. Every time.

And I don’t believe they crafted carefully worded lies.

You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth here. On the one hand you say you don't reject the mounds and mounds of very credible and well corroborated evidence because you don't like it, but then on the other hand you say you don't believe that Joseph and Hyrum crafted carefully worded denials, even though this is exactly what the available evidence shows is what happened.

To continue to accuse them means you are lining up with the accusers.

Nice try. I'm not accusing them of adultery, spiritual wivery, or being fallen/false prophets.

But I will concede that a much stronger case can be made for this, then the one you're trying to make.

It simply not true that "They denied it. Every time."

You know that many eyewitnesses all across the board testified that they "admitted" they had more than one wife.

[cab]

I absolutely reject “the evidence” and it’s not because I don’t like it. I used to believe the “evidence”.

But now I believe Joseph and Hyrum.

They denied it. Every time.

And I don’t believe they crafted carefully worded lies.

You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth here. On the one hand you say you don't reject the mounds and mounds of very credible and well corroborated evidence because you don't like it, but then on the other hand you say you don't believe that Joseph and Hyrum crafted carefully worded denials, even though this is exactly what the available evidence shows is what happened.

To continue to accuse them means you are lining up with the accusers.

Nice try. I'm not accusing them of adultery, spiritual wivery, or being fallen/false prophets.

But I will concede that a much stronger case can be made for this, then the one you're trying to make.

It simply not true that "They denied it. Every time."

You know that many eyewitnesses all across the board testified that they "admitted" they had more than one wife.

Your reasoning hurts my brain.

My take is simple.

Joseph and Hyrum rejected the doctrine dozens of times and denied having anything to do with it. I don’t believe they lied.

Any accusations made towards them during their lives about having multiple wives they denied. I don’t believe they lied.

I’ve seen no contemporaneous source they had any control over that showed they had anything to do with it. If you have one, then provide it.

I do believe that the “mounds of evidence” saying otherwise was created by those with an agenda, liars, accusers, and believers of liars and accusers.

I believe that you, Matthias, are sided with the accusers and the believers of the accusers.

[LDS Watchman]

I absolutely reject “the evidence” and it’s not because I don’t like it. I used to believe the “evidence”.

But now I believe Joseph and Hyrum.

They denied it. Every time.

And I don’t believe they crafted carefully worded lies.

You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth here. On the one hand you say you don't reject the mounds and mounds of very credible and well corroborated evidence because you don't like it, but then on the other hand you say you don't believe that Joseph and Hyrum crafted carefully worded denials, even though this is exactly what the available evidence shows is what happened.

To continue to accuse them means you are lining up with the accusers.

Nice try. I'm not accusing them of adultery, spiritual wivery, or being fallen/false prophets.

But I will concede that a much stronger case can be made for this, then the one you're trying to make.

It simply not true that "They denied it. Every time."

You know that many eyewitnesses all across the board testified that they "admitted" they had more than one wife.

Your reasoning hurts my brain.

My take is simple.

Joseph and Hyrum rejected the doctrine dozens of times and denied being having anything to do with it. I don’t believe they lied.

Any accusations made towards them during their lives about having multiple wives the denied. I don’t believe they lied.

There is no contemporaneous source they had any control over that showed they had anything to do with it.

I do believe that the “mounds of evidence” saying otherwise was created by those with an agenda, liars, accusers, and believers of liars and accusers.

I believe that you, Matthias, are sided with the accusers and the believers of the accusers.

I side with their accusers even though I don't accuse them of any wrong doing? That doesn't make any sense.

You on the other hand are an actual accuser. You accuse the faithful Saints of God of being liars, adulterers, and murderers, all because you just don't want to believe that Joseph and Hyrum practiced plural marriage secretly.

Stay tuned. I'm going to put together some evidence that you and the other deniers/accusers will not be able to refute. I'm sure you'll find a way to reject it, but you won't be able to make any reasonable counterarguments against it.

[Believing Joseph]

I'm not twisting their words at all. I simply view these carefully worded public denials of spiritual wivery and adultery...

Look, if you believe that Joseph and Hyrum were justified in saying one thing in public, while saying (and doing) another thing in private, because God had commanded them to do so, I get that. It is not something that can be argued with.

Though you could at least drop the Newspeak about "carefully worded denials" and instead use a phrase that's more honest and straightforward, like "Lying for the Lord," as in:

I'm not twisting their words at all. I simply view lying for the Lord about spiritual wifery and adultery in light of all the available evidence...