What they NEVER tell you when they bring up Oliver's return to "the church"

[larsenb]

Everything I've read indicates it was originally organized by various Calif./SF artists, writers and eccentrics, but was gradually taken over by prominent business/political types, probably because they thought the founders were having a lot of high-jinx fun. Trumbo was one of these.

Yeah that sounds about right.

Kinda weird but it makes me reflect on my trip to San Fran a few years or so back. First time I been there even though I lived not far from it for a reasonable portion of my life. The Spirit that came over me was so heavy and the mental vision was so crisp. It disconcerted me why a weekend trip to such a wicked city was arousing such intense spiritual symptoms. I still don't get it. Maybe I will someday. I guess it did kind of have the air of an anticipatory premonition of perhaps something future to come, respective to the city now that i think about it more. Hopefully not unwittingly tapping into some sort of megapolisomancy grid or something lol

Wouldn't surprise me about your foreboding premonition. There is some truly awful stuff that has and is going on there.

I lived w/in about a 3-5 minute walk from one of the Bohemian Club enclaves on the top of Nob Hill. And a large white Masonic Temple had been build w/in 2-3 feet of the back of the building where I rented a room. I could open the window and hit it, as I recall.

[larsenb]

. . . . Did you ever figure out why the modern prophets can't tell us exactly what the Lord said anymore? The last one able to do that was Wilford Woodruff before he died at the Bohemian Grove.

You do persist.

What evidence that "he died at the Bohemian Grove"? None that I've found or that you've previously presented.

lol, I presented you the same link Robbinius posted. How could you forget a thing like that???


The obituary was published on Friday September 2, 1898

The obituary says:

San Francisco Chronicle: Wilford Woodruff, President of the Mormon Church, died at the residence of Colonel Isaac Trumbo shortly after 7 o’clock yesterday morning.

He died surrounded by every comfort that loving hands could provide, while close beside him were his wife and his old friends, George Q. Cannon, President and councelor in the Church, and Bishop Hiram B. Clawson, who, with their wives, were sojourning in the same hospitable home.

President Woodruff had for some time been suffering from kidney and bladder troubles, but still remained active and though in his ninety-second year frankly proclaimed his intention of becoming a centenarian. He grew so feeble, however, that when in July he was urged to come down to San Francisco and take a little holiday, he seized upon the idea with a boy’s enthusiasm, and immediately began preparations for the journey, telling all his friends that he was going off for a vacation. He was a very hard worker, and every check paid out in the great Mormon co-operative industrial organization had to pass through his hands. He told his attending physician here that on the day before he left he signed 800 checks. Yet he stood the journey well and greatly enjoyed the change. At a dinner given in his honor at the rooms of the Bohemian Club the other night, of which no man under 80 was permitted to partake and where George Bromley, Dr. Behr and other octogenarians of local note were assembled, Elder Woodruff was voted the smartest of the party. The day before he died he was talking of going out fishing.

On Thursday night he complained of feeling ill, and Dr. Winslow Anderson, his physician, called in Drs. McNutt and Buckley in consultation, and decided that there was little hope that he would see another dawn. He passed away like a child in his sleep, when the morning light was breaking.

It so chances that the Chronicle possesses President Woodruff’s own story of his life, recounted in this city on the 15th of August, the day following his arrival, and characterized by the vigorous, plain old man’s speech.

I agree with Robbinius. The fact that he attended a dinner in his honor at the Bohemian Club and also happened to be the final president to receive literal word-for-word revelation from the Lord is not a coincidence.

Coupled with the fact that W.W. did not keep the commandments given to him from the Lord in his 1889 revelation in which he was commanded not to concede to government demands. (Found here https://archive.is/tGxvr)

The Bohemian Grove is a 2,700-acre virgin redwood grove in Northern California, 75 miles north of San Francisco (map), where the rich, the powerful, and their entourage visit with each other during the last two weeks of July while camping out in cabins and tents.

It's an Elks Club for the rich; a fraternity party in the woods; a boy scout camp for old guys, complete with an initiation ceremony and a totem animal, the owl. It's owned by the Bohemian Club, which was founded in San Francisco in 1872. The Bohemians started going on their little retreat shortly after the club was founded; it became big-time by the 1880s, and it continues today.

The Bohemian Grove is a 2,700-acre virgin redwood grove in Northern California, 75 miles north of San Francisco (map), where the rich, the powerful, and their entourage visit with each other during the last two weeks of July while camping out in cabins and tents.

https://whorulesamerica.ucsc.edu/power/ ... grove.html

Ah, you've found one of JK4Woods SF articles on the death of WW. Problem is, it sounds nothing like his speculations about these articles regarding food poisoning. Trumbo may very well have organized the dinner for him, and possibly out of his friendship and love for WW. Probably not any more complicated or nefarious than that.

Coincidences can after all, be only coincidences.

And, as mentioned, above, I've satisfied my mind that WW's manifesto was based on his 1890 revelation from the Lord warning him what would happen to the Church if it kept bucking the Edmunds-Tucker Act that had been upheld by a Supreme Court decision, Spring of 1890.

And regarding the Bohemian Grove, reading the history of it indicates the BC only rented parts of it 1898, and did not buy it in its present entirely until about 1901, or so. They had also been holding their yearly July enclaves at various other locations.

[InfoWarrior82]

. . . . Did you ever figure out why the modern prophets can't tell us exactly what the Lord said anymore? The last one able to do that was Wilford Woodruff before he died at the Bohemian Grove.

You do persist.

What evidence that "he died at the Bohemian Grove"? None that I've found or that you've previously presented.

lol, I presented you the same link Robbinius posted. How could you forget a thing like that???


The obituary was published on Friday September 2, 1898

The obituary says:

San Francisco Chronicle: Wilford Woodruff, President of the Mormon Church, died at the residence of Colonel Isaac Trumbo shortly after 7 o’clock yesterday morning.

He died surrounded by every comfort that loving hands could provide, while close beside him were his wife and his old friends, George Q. Cannon, President and councelor in the Church, and Bishop Hiram B. Clawson, who, with their wives, were sojourning in the same hospitable home.

President Woodruff had for some time been suffering from kidney and bladder troubles, but still remained active and though in his ninety-second year frankly proclaimed his intention of becoming a centenarian. He grew so feeble, however, that when in July he was urged to come down to San Francisco and take a little holiday, he seized upon the idea with a boy’s enthusiasm, and immediately began preparations for the journey, telling all his friends that he was going off for a vacation. He was a very hard worker, and every check paid out in the great Mormon co-operative industrial organization had to pass through his hands. He told his attending physician here that on the day before he left he signed 800 checks. Yet he stood the journey well and greatly enjoyed the change. At a dinner given in his honor at the rooms of the Bohemian Club the other night, of which no man under 80 was permitted to partake and where George Bromley, Dr. Behr and other octogenarians of local note were assembled, Elder Woodruff was voted the smartest of the party. The day before he died he was talking of going out fishing.

On Thursday night he complained of feeling ill, and Dr. Winslow Anderson, his physician, called in Drs. McNutt and Buckley in consultation, and decided that there was little hope that he would see another dawn. He passed away like a child in his sleep, when the morning light was breaking.

It so chances that the Chronicle possesses President Woodruff’s own story of his life, recounted in this city on the 15th of August, the day following his arrival, and characterized by the vigorous, plain old man’s speech.

I agree with Robbinius. The fact that he attended a dinner in his honor at the Bohemian Club and also happened to be the final president to receive literal word-for-word revelation from the Lord is not a coincidence.

Coupled with the fact that W.W. did not keep the commandments given to him from the Lord in his 1889 revelation in which he was commanded not to concede to government demands. (Found here https://archive.is/tGxvr)

The Bohemian Grove is a 2,700-acre virgin redwood grove in Northern California, 75 miles north of San Francisco (map), where the rich, the powerful, and their entourage visit with each other during the last two weeks of July while camping out in cabins and tents.

It's an Elks Club for the rich; a fraternity party in the woods; a boy scout camp for old guys, complete with an initiation ceremony and a totem animal, the owl. It's owned by the Bohemian Club, which was founded in San Francisco in 1872. The Bohemians started going on their little retreat shortly after the club was founded; it became big-time by the 1880s, and it continues today.

The Bohemian Grove is a 2,700-acre virgin redwood grove in Northern California, 75 miles north of San Francisco (map), where the rich, the powerful, and their entourage visit with each other during the last two weeks of July while camping out in cabins and tents.

https://whorulesamerica.ucsc.edu/power/ ... grove.html

Ah, you've found one of JK4Woods SF articles on the death of WW. Problem is, it sounds nothing like his speculations about these articles regarding food poisoning. Trumbo may very well have organized the dinner for him, and possibly out of his friendship and love for WW. Probably not any more complicated or nefarious than that.

Coincidences can after all, be only coincidences.

And, as mentioned, above, I've satisfied my mind that WW's manifesto was based on his 1890 revelation from the Lord warning him what would happen to the Church if it kept bucking the Edmunds-Tucker Act that had been upheld by a Supreme Court decision, Spring of 1890.

And regarding the Bohemian Grove, reading the history of it indicates the BC only rented parts of it 1898, and did not buy it in its present entirely until about 1901, or so. They had also been holding their yearly July enclaves at various other locations.

Could have been murdered, could have been taken by the Lord. Who knows. But what should concern anyone is the fact that W.W. went to go meet with Gadiantons after conceding to government and getting into disastrous financial debt to them. The worship of the Moloch Owl Statue at the Bohemian Grove started in the 1880's. Not just "fun & games lol!"




I don't trust the "vision" W.W. had instructing him to concede to government demands because there was no direct revelation on it. The previous one he had were the direct words of the Lord commanding Pres. Woodruff to NOT concede!

Furthermore, direct revelations from the Lord to his presidents ceased after the death of W.W.

Fiiiiisshhhyyyyyy.


The fact that we don't have any more word for word revelations from Jesus Christ very much explains the state of the church today making covenants with the Gadianton Robbers to carry out their agenda.

[darknesstolight]

I don't understand you folks that leave the church, but obsess over it although the dedication by some is valiant and I'm impressed. I know it's true and I still don't have the commitment to talking about it as some of the people who left it.

I get it, you've invested a lot and want retribution. Personally, you should look at it like a sunk cost. You won't get back your time or donated tithing so move on. Spend your time finding the "true" religion instead of focusing on a false on.

As for myself, for some reason the Lord has given me sufficient proof to know what I know. Sure there are interesting issues that I wonder about. You get that when you have imperfect humans involved. Lots of mistakes as well.

All I know is what I know. Best of luck to you and look, I'm getting older now so look for me on the other side of the vail so I can remind you that I was right. Just kidding on that. It will be interesting to see who is right and who is wrong...

Good luck. Sincerely hope you find validation to your search and belief so you can move on from this faith that you don't endorse. It's ok to let go and live, friend.

Question: Why don't TBM ever confront the evidence of those who speak against the Church in someway and instead they almost always attack others personally and ignore the substance?

Answer: Fragility. Their belief and faith is fragile and they are afraid to look deep for fear of their life paradigm falling apart. The idea of losing one's paradigm, even when false, is terrifying for most people and it gets avoided at all cost. No doubt they are going to attack another personally rather than deal with the real issue.

Fruits of believing in human scapegoat sacrifice, BTW.

...

[larsenb]

. . . . . Could have been murdered, could have been taken by the Lord. Who knows. But what should concern anyone is the fact that W.W. went to go meet with Gadiantons after conceding to government and getting into disastrous financial debt to them. The worship of the Moloch Owl Statue at the Bohemian Grove started in the 1880's. Not just "fun & games lol!"

I don't trust the "vision" W.W. had instructing him to concede to government demands because there was no direct revelation on it. The previous one he had were the direct words of the Lord commanding Pres. Woodruff to NOT concede! . . .

I don’t see that WW “went to go meet with Gadiantons”. He went to Calif/SF for R&R because of an apparent on-going condition (bladder infection?), staying at the home of Isaac Trumbo, with whom he had close connections with in SLC, as stated in my earlier post. Murdered? Pure speculation w/no real evidence or testimony to support it.

The owl statue is more related to Minerva, goddess of wisdom and Apollo, not Muloch (see: https://isgp-studies.com/Bohemian_Grove_symbolism ).

WW based the Manifesto on visions and revelations from the Lord based on what he said in 1891:

“The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice . . . . . .I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write.”

I simply choose to believe what WW himself said on the subject. Nothing from his background I’m aware of would support the idea that he lied. Further, what the Lord showed him, surely would have come to pass with disastrous results for the church.

[InfoWarrior82]

. . . . . Could have been murdered, could have been taken by the Lord. Who knows. But what should concern anyone is the fact that W.W. went to go meet with Gadiantons after conceding to government and getting into disastrous financial debt to them. The worship of the Moloch Owl Statue at the Bohemian Grove started in the 1880's. Not just "fun & games lol!"

I don't trust the "vision" W.W. had instructing him to concede to government demands because there was no direct revelation on it. The previous one he had were the direct words of the Lord commanding Pres. Woodruff to NOT concede! . . .

I don’t see that WW “went to go meet with Gadiantons”. He went to Calif/SF for R&R because of an apparent on-going condition (bladder infection?), staying at the home of Isaac Trumbo, with whom he had close connections with in SLC, as stated in my earlier post. Murdered? Pure speculation w/no real evidence or testimony to support it.

The owl statue is more related to Minerva, goddess of wisdom and Apollo, not Muloch (see: https://isgp-studies.com/Bohemian_Grove_symbolism ).

WW based the Manifesto on visions and revelations from the Lord based on what he said in 1891:

“The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice . . . . . .I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write.”

I simply choose to believe what WW himself said on the subject. Nothing from his background I’m aware of would support the idea that he lied. Further, what the Lord showed him, surely would have come to pass with disastrous results for the church.

So now you're excusing the activities of the Bohemians in the Grove? Wow.

Watch this and tell me if you still feel that way:

The timeline adds up.

1. We have the literal words of Jesus Christ commanding W.W. NOT to concede to government.
2. W.W. concedes to government demands and goes deep into financial debt while citing a "vision" he had from the Lord without any literal words from Him, where previously the Lord freely spoke.
3. W.W. goes to the Bohemian Club. Undoubtedly these are Gadianton Robbers.
4. W.W. dies.
5. No more literal words of Jesus Christ to the presidents of the church.
6. We now have united with the W.E.F., United Nations, NAACP, and have pledged to carry out Agenda 2030 and say wearing masks is Christlike and in order to be Good Global Citizens you should get the jab.


Sorry, these occurrences aren't coincidences and I know you're smart enough to see that.

[BringerOfJoy]

. . . . . . The point isn't that he died AT the Bohemian Club. The point is that he was there being celebrated right before he died. Why would a prophet, seer, and revelator be fraternizing at a place like that? That's the important question here. The details of his death are inconsequential.

The person that is most likely to have invited WW to the Bohemian Club dinner was Isaac Trumbo (1858–1912), a Mormon, born in Nevada, but who grew up in SLC, and who had spent a lot of effort to help Utah achieve statehood. Its not clear when he moved to Calif., but he had been a prominent businessman there. That Trumbo was close to WW, is indicated by Trumbo being invited to live in the Gardo House, which had become the official residence of the presidents of the Church, when Trumbo had moved back to SLC after Utah statehood had been achieve.

Trumbo moved back to SF after his political aspirations were not rewarded as he thought they may be because of efforts in helping Utah achieve statehood. WW died in Trumbo's home where he had been staying.

This is taken from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Trumbo . The last entry in this commentary says: "Trumbo lost his home on Sutter Street in 1911 after failing to pay the mortgage. He died in November 1912, after he was assaulted in street."

Trumbo's maternal GGFather was Colonel John Reese, founder of Genoa, Nevada and also a Mormon.

I'm not sure how accurate the DesNews article was on WW's death, and certainly wouldn't assign it 100%

Ooh, thanks for pointing to that Trumbo article. In spite of being married into the Woodruff descendants, and having lived in the Genoa neighborhood for 30 years, I was not aware aware of those NV connections.

[larsenb]

So now you're excusing the activities of the Bohemians in the Grove? Wow.

Watch this and tell me if you still feel that way:

The timeline adds up.

1. We have the literal words of Jesus Christ commanding W.W. NOT to concede to government.
2. W.W. concedes to government demands and goes deep into financial debt while citing a "vision" he had from the Lord without any literal words from Him, where previously the Lord freely spoke.
3. W.W. goes to the Bohemian Club. Undoubtedly these are Gadianton Robbers.
4. W.W. dies.
5. No more literal words of Jesus Christ to the presidents of the church.
6. We now have united with the W.E.F., United Nations, NAACP, and have pledged to carry out Agenda 2030 and say wearing masks is Christlike and in order to be Good Global Citizens you should get the jab.


Sorry, these occurrences aren't coincidences and I know you're smart enough to see that.

Oh, my. Nowhere have I said I approve of the activities that have gone on at Bohemian Grove in past decades.

Your item 1. We've discussed this before. We have a fundamental disagreement regarding the meaning of the documents you cite for this assertion.

Item 2: Try comparing what would have happened to the church and its members if WW (and the Lord) had bucked the Supreme Court decision to uphold the Tucker-Edmunds Act. Obviously, the Lord thought the alternative was the better course.

Item 3: More supposition using sweeping generalizations. Your welcome to them, though. But not for me.

Item 4: WW was a sick, 91 year old man who went to SF/Calif for R&R. He died due to his apparent illness. Those are the facts. As you know, the juxtaposition of events in time does not show causality.

I'm not saying at all, that some of the informal alliances the Church is making and statements they are coming out with are not disturbing and maybe highly significant in a detrimental way. Far from it. My position is that the Lord is apparently allowing these actions for whatever reasons; maybe related to what George Q. Cannon has said on the subject.

And your: "I know you're smart enough" comment is amusing. Are you aware of the element of condescending, brow beating coercion it contains?

[Juliet]

I like the oped. Some good points. When you think about it... It's human nature to protect one's reputation at all costs. Because exile is the trauma that humans believe is worse than death. It's the trauma of being cast out of the garden of eden all over again.

I guess I feel like humanity has got to understand when someone partakes in sin... They do it because they feel it is necessary to survive. This perception isn't true... But it's the body who develops all kinds of addictions without permission from the conscious mind. The body and mind need to be whole. As humanity hasn't figured this out yet, we can't really even know the truth. And even if we had the truth it wouldn't be important accept to cast out evil creation for which we are all responsible. And of course the way we do that is to integrate that which doesn't have light into that which does.

The way we do this is with our heart. Hence the need for the hearts of the fathers to turn to the children and vise versa. I can only imagine that this has not occurred yet due to hardened hearts. And I believe adultery, creation used outside of God's law, is the source of all hardened hearts.

It goes to show that the father's hearts are not yet turned to the children. Fathers will betray their own offspring to satisfy their lust.

So we end with, if you want to cast a stone, make sure you have not sinned.

We all have sacrificed our offspring for our own lusts in one way or another. I don't eat healthy and because of that I can not handle another pregnancy. I am evil. We all do things like this. We take pensions from a government that launders money so we can be more comfortable. We have sex and lustful thoughts toward someone who isn't our spouse. Think about it... That means we are lusting after our brother or sister. That's called incest.

Emotional incest causes fathers to force their children to provide for their emotional needs and mothers emotionally abuse their children because they steal from the emotional wellbeing of the children in order to make themsleves feel better.

The human race is a big mess and the fault goes all the way to the top. Joseph Smith is dead. But we are alive. So let's work on our own sins and let the old and dead teach us that we must change the way we treat other.

I don't know about you, but being exiled once from God's presence was bad enough. I never want to be responsible for making someone feel that kind of rejection. That kind of rejection caused Jesus to shed blood from every pore to make things back the way they were supposed to be. And the way things are supposed to be is creation in the context of love according to God's laws.

We have to go back and make the past right. We won't succeed unless our hearts turn to each other. I think if one person overcomes their own sinful tendancies the whole world will be a better place.

[InfoWarrior82]

Oh, my. Nowhere have I said I approve of the activities that have gone on at Bohemian Grove in past decades.

Thank you for at least understanding the Bohemian Club is satanic in nature and that W.W. met with them in their revelry.

Your item 1. We've discussed this before. We have a fundamental disagreement regarding the meaning of the documents you cite for this assertion.

The Lord's words are plain to read and are unmistakable. https://archive.is/tGxvr

Thus saith the Lord to my servant Wilford. I, the Lord, have heard thy prayers and thy request, and will answer thee by the voice of my spirit.

Thus saith the Lord unto my servants the Presidency of My Church, who hold the Keys of the Kingdom of God on the earth. I the Lord hold the destiny of the courts in your midst, and the destiny of this nation, and all other nations of the earth, in mine own hands, and all that I have revealed and promised and decreed concerning the generation in which you live shall come to pass, and no power shall stay my hand.

Let not my servants who are called to the Presidency of my Church deny my word or my law, which concerns the salvation of the children of men.

Let them pray for the Holy Spirit which shall be given them to guide them in their acts. Place not yourselves in jeopardy to your enemies by promise. Your enemies seek your destruction and the destruction of my people. If the Saints will hearken unto my voice, and the counsel of my servants, the wicked shall not prevail.

Let my servants who officiate as your counselors before the courts make their pleadings as they are moved upon by the Holy Spirit, without any further pledges from the Priesthood, and they will be justified.

I, the Lord, will hold the courts, with the officers of government and the nation responsible for their acts towards the inhabitants of Zion.

I, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, am in your midst. I am your advocate with the Father. Fear not, little flock, it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the Kingdom. Fear not the wicked and ungodly.

Search the scriptures, for they are they which testify of me; also those revelations which I have given to my servant Joseph, and to all my servants since the world began, which are recorded in the records of divine truth.

Those revelations contain the judgments of God which are to be poured out upon all nations under the heavens, which include Great Babylon. These judgments are at the door. They will be fulfilled as God lives. Leave judgment with me, it is mine, saith the Lord. Watch the signs of the times and they will show the fulfillment of the words of the Lord.

Let my servants call upon the Lord in mighty prayer, retain the Holy Ghost as your constant companion and act as you are moved upon by that Spirit, and all will be well with you.

The wicked are fast ripening in iniquity, and they will be cut off by the judgments of God. Great events await you and this generation and are nigh at your doors. Awake! O Israel, and have faith in God and his promises and he will not forsake you. I the Lord will deliver my Saints from the dominion of the wicked in mine own due time and way.

I cannot deny my Word, neither in blessings nor judgments. Therefore let mine anointed gird up their loins, watch and be sober, and keep my commandments. Pray always and faint not. Exercise faith in the Lord and in the promises of God; be valiant in the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The eyes of the Lord and the Heavenly Hosts are watching over you and your acts. Therefore be faithful until I come. I come quickly to reward every man, according to the deeds done in the body. Even so, Amen.

Item 2: Try comparing what would have happened to the church and its members if WW (and the Lord) had bucked the Supreme Court decision to uphold the Tucker-Edmunds Act. Obviously, the Lord thought the alternative was the better course.

First, I don't think this "vision" was from the Lord at all. And, it appears that you and W.W. share the same lack of faith in the Lord. Please read His words posted above which details His promise to protect the church and its members if his commandments were kept.

Item 3: More supposition using sweeping generalizations. Your welcome to them, though. But not for me.

So you don't think the Bohemian Grove is satanic? Huh? Have you not watched the documentary I posted above that shows the "cremation of care" ritual?

Item 4: WW was a sick, 91 year old man who went to SF/Calif for R&R. He died due to his apparent illness. Those are the facts. As you know, the juxtaposition of events in time does not show causality.

Ok, so the Lord may have taken him after he went to revel with satanists at the Bohemian Club. Fair enough.

I'm not saying at all, that some of the informal alliances the Church is making and statements they are coming out with are not disturbing and maybe highly significant in a detrimental way. Far from it. My position is that the Lord is apparently allowing these actions for whatever reasons; maybe related to what George Q. Cannon has said on the subject.

You keep trying to emphasize the informality of it. That's not the point. The point is, is that it is done.

The Lord is not involved in any of these decisions. We have not had the literal words of the Lord since W.W.

And your: "I know you're smart enough" comment is amusing. Are you aware of the element of condescending, brow beating coercion it contains?

C'mon, larsenb... I know that you are knowledgeable of the secret combinations and our church's involvement with them. Yet, you refuse to even consider it a possibility that "the Lord will never allow his Prophet to lead the church astray" could be false doctrine.

[Luke]

1. We have the literal words of Jesus Christ commanding W.W. NOT to concede to government.

Your item 1. We've discussed this before. We have a fundamental disagreement regarding the meaning of the documents you cite for this assertion.

The document he cited was Wilford Woodruff’s 1889 Revelation, which specifically said not to make concessions to the government. And here’s what the leaders thought of it at the time:

• "During our meeting a revelation was read which Pres. Woodruff received Sunday evening, Nov. 24th. Propositions had been made for the Church to make some concessions to the Courts in regard to its principles. Both of Pres. Woodruff's counselors refused to advise him as to the course he should pursue, and he therefore laid the matter before the Lord. The answer came quick and strong. The word of the Lord was for us not to yield one particle of that which He had revealed and established. He had done and would continue to care for His work and those of the Saints who were faithful and we need have no fear of our enemies when we were in the line of our duty. We are promised redemption and deliverance if we will trust in God and not in the arm of flesh. We were admonished to read and study the Word of God, and to pray often. The whole revelation was filled with words of the greatest encouragement and comfort, and my heart was filled with joy and peace during the entire reading. It sets all doubts at rest concerning the course to pursue." (Abraham H. Cannon's Journal, 19 December 1889)

[TheDuke]

I personally love reading about Oliver and David Whitmer and others that left but kept their honor. They all left the organization when things got ugly but never became so anti that they tarnished themselves. I feel their testimonies very strongly and see where they were at least partially correct. I never look down on them or their decisions. They stood their ground. I'm pretty sure that if I had been there, I would have more likely been with them that with BY.

Seems the gospel comes from a seed and grows into a wild bush. Someone has to trim the bush to make it grow. The argument always seems to be how to trim it. BY and co. went one way, Paul went his way, etc... Maybe there is not a right or wrong way, maybe there are a lots of not quite right ways and any are ok with the Lord? I ask this because I obtained my faith and my salvation through Jesus via the traditional LDS path (so it worked for me). Yet, I am not sure I 100% agree with all I see from JS or BY or WW or JFS or RMN or Paul or James or David Whitmer or (even the first Nephi for that matter).

[larsenb]

1. We have the literal words of Jesus Christ commanding W.W. NOT to concede to government.

Your item 1. We've discussed this before. We have a fundamental disagreement regarding the meaning of the documents you cite for this assertion.

The document he cited was Wilford Woodruff’s 1889 Revelation, which specifically said not to make concessions to the government. And here’s what the leaders thought of it at the time:

• "During our meeting a revelation was read which Pres. Woodruff received Sunday evening, Nov. 24th. Propositions had been made for the Church to make some concessions to the Courts in regard to its principles. Both of Pres. Woodruff's counselors refused to advise him as to the course he should pursue, and he therefore laid the matter before the Lord. The answer came quick and strong. The word of the Lord was for us not to yield one particle of that which He had revealed and established. He had done and would continue to care for His work and those of the Saints who were faithful and we need have no fear of our enemies when we were in the line of our duty. We are promised redemption and deliverance if we will trust in God and not in the arm of flesh. We were admonished to read and study the Word of God, and to pray often. The whole revelation was filled with words of the greatest encouragement and comfort, and my heart was filled with joy and peace during the entire reading. It sets all doubts at rest concerning the course to pursue." (Abraham H. Cannon's Journal, 19 December 1889)

But where the Lord says: “Let not my servants who are called to the Presidency of my Church deny my word or my law”, the Manifesto doesn’t do this in my view.

And the Lord saying: “I the Lord hold the destiny of the courts in your midst . . . in mine own hands”, does not mean the courts will be prevented from doing wrong, which they did with the SCOTUS decision, Spring 1890, in upholding the Edmunds-Tucker Act.

In fact, He further avers that He “will hold the courts . . . . responsible for their acts towards the inhabitants of Zion”, strongly implying to me that he did or would hold SCOTUS, etc., responsible for the damage they did and that would result from their decisions. He isn’t telling you about his timeline for doing this or what it entails.

And, as I will mention in my reply to IW82’s latest, with the 1890 SCOTUS decision, the church was already in supreme jeopardy, even after its counselors had pled in court against the Edmund’s Tucker Act. By this time, the “jeopardy" was a fait accompli.

Further, to my understanding, the Presidency and the twelve had unanimously approved of the Manifesto, and it was put to the general membership for approval in the Fall Conference of 1890.

Was Abraham H. Cannon one of these? My guess is the brethren, to include A. H. Cannon, accepted WW’s claim to visions and revelation about the course of action to follow.

[larsenb]

Oh, my. Nowhere have I said I approve of the activities that have gone on at Bohemian Grove in past decades.

Thank you for at least understanding the Bohemian Club is satanic in nature and that W.W. met with them in their revelry.

Your item 1. We've discussed this before. We have a fundamental disagreement regarding the meaning of the documents you cite for this assertion.

The Lord's words are plain to read and are unmistakable. https://archive.is/tGxvr

Thus saith the Lord to my servant Wilford. I, the Lord, have heard thy prayers and thy request, and will answer thee by the voice of my spirit.

Thus saith the Lord unto my servants the Presidency of My Church, who hold the Keys of the Kingdom of God on the earth. I the Lord hold the destiny of the courts in your midst, and the destiny of this nation, and all other nations of the earth, in mine own hands, and all that I have revealed and promised and decreed concerning the generation in which you live shall come to pass, and no power shall stay my hand.

Let not my servants who are called to the Presidency of my Church deny my word or my law, which concerns the salvation of the children of men.

Let them pray for the Holy Spirit which shall be given them to guide them in their acts. Place not yourselves in jeopardy to your enemies by promise. Your enemies seek your destruction and the destruction of my people. If the Saints will hearken unto my voice, and the counsel of my servants, the wicked shall not prevail.

Let my servants who officiate as your counselors before the courts make their pleadings as they are moved upon by the Holy Spirit, without any further pledges from the Priesthood, and they will be justified.

I, the Lord, will hold the courts, with the officers of government and the nation responsible for their acts towards the inhabitants of Zion.

I, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, am in your midst. I am your advocate with the Father. Fear not, little flock, it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the Kingdom. Fear not the wicked and ungodly.

Search the scriptures, for they are they which testify of me; also those revelations which I have given to my servant Joseph, and to all my servants since the world began, which are recorded in the records of divine truth.

Those revelations contain the judgments of God which are to be poured out upon all nations under the heavens, which include Great Babylon. These judgments are at the door. They will be fulfilled as God lives. Leave judgment with me, it is mine, saith the Lord. Watch the signs of the times and they will show the fulfillment of the words of the Lord.

Let my servants call upon the Lord in mighty prayer, retain the Holy Ghost as your constant companion and act as you are moved upon by that Spirit, and all will be well with you.

The wicked are fast ripening in iniquity, and they will be cut off by the judgments of God. Great events await you and this generation and are nigh at your doors. Awake! O Israel, and have faith in God and his promises and he will not forsake you. I the Lord will deliver my Saints from the dominion of the wicked in mine own due time and way.

I cannot deny my Word, neither in blessings nor judgments. Therefore let mine anointed gird up their loins, watch and be sober, and keep my commandments. Pray always and faint not. Exercise faith in the Lord and in the promises of God; be valiant in the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The eyes of the Lord and the Heavenly Hosts are watching over you and your acts. Therefore be faithful until I come. I come quickly to reward every man, according to the deeds done in the body. Even so, Amen.

Item 2: Try comparing what would have happened to the church and its members if WW (and the Lord) had bucked the Supreme Court decision to uphold the Tucker-Edmunds Act. Obviously, the Lord thought the alternative was the better course.

First, I don't think this "vision" was from the Lord at all. And, it appears that you and W.W. share the same lack of faith in the Lord. Please read His words posted above which details His promise to protect the church and its members if his commandments were kept.

Item 3: More supposition using sweeping generalizations. Your welcome to them, though. But not for me.

So you don't think the Bohemian Grove is satanic? Huh? Have you not watched the documentary I posted above that shows the "cremation of care" ritual?

Item 4: WW was a sick, 91 year old man who went to SF/Calif for R&R. He died due to his apparent illness. Those are the facts. As you know, the juxtaposition of events in time does not show causality.

Ok, so the Lord may have taken him after he went to revel with satanists at the Bohemian Club. Fair enough.

I'm not saying at all, that some of the informal alliances the Church is making and statements they are coming out with are not disturbing and maybe highly significant in a detrimental way. Far from it. My position is that the Lord is apparently allowing these actions for whatever reasons; maybe related to what George Q. Cannon has said on the subject.

You keep trying to emphasize the informality of it. That's not the point. The point is, is that it is done.

The Lord is not involved in any of these decisions. We have not had the literal words of the Lord since W.W.

And your: "I know you're smart enough" comment is amusing. Are you aware of the element of condescending, brow beating coercion it contains?

C'mon, larsenb... I know that you are knowledgeable of the secret combinations and our church's involvement with them. Yet, you refuse to even consider it a possibility that "the Lord will never allow his Prophet to lead the church astray" could be false doctrine.

IW82: Thank you for at least understanding the Bohemian Club is satanic in nature and that W.W. met with them in their revelry.

Don’t thank me. I’ve been aware of them for years. I’ve even been swimming in the Russian River, not far below the ‘grove’.

And saying the Bohemian Club is satanic in nature, is too much of a generality for me. It started out as a fun loving club by artistic types, but was taken over by power brokers at some point or gradually over time. It’s now a typical good-old-boys club. Many exist, to include our local Chambers of Commerce. Of course, the BC, is one of the more high-powered and notorious of these. And in so far as these types of organizations function primarily as self-serving power brockerages, I guess you could say they are satanic.

But your conflating WW having a dinner arranged for him at the club by a friend who was a member with being engaged with their “satanic . . . revelry”, is rather underhanded rhetoric imo.

IW82: Let them pray for the Holy Spirit which shall be given them to guide them in their acts. Place not yourselves in jeopardy to your enemies by promise. Your enemies seek your destruction and the destruction of my people. If the Saints will hearken unto my voice, and the counsel of my servants, the wicked shall not prevail.

Once again, I think you are misreading this passage. Looking at just the first sentence, WW actually complied with this and prayed for guidance regarding what to do after the SCOTUS decision and was given visions and revelations by the Lord as to what he should do. And because the wicked seemed to prevail with this decision, the last sentence may imply that the Saints had not hearkened to the Lord’s voice sufficiently.

Regarding the middle sentence, the church and its members were already in jeopardy by their enemies via the Edmunds-Tucker Act and its being upheld by the SCOTUS. The jeopardy was a fait accomplis. What does one do then? You pray for guidance, which is what WW did.

IW82: Let my servants who officiate as your counselors before the courts make their pleadings as they are moved upon by the Holy Spirit, without any further pledges from the Priesthood, and they will be justified.

It’s well documented that counselors of the church pled before the courts to counter the Edmunds-Tucker Act, but to no avail. I’ve asked you a couple of times now, for you to explain what you think “without any further pledges from the Priesthood, and they will be justified”, means. So far, no response to this. I’m frankly puzzled by the meaning.

IW82: First, I don't think this "vision" was from the Lord at all. And, it appears that you and W.W. share the same lack of faith in the Lord.

OK. You are essentially claiming WW was lying or a victim of self-deception when he claimed the Lord told him what to do in response to the SCOTUS decision. I personally try avoid being an “accuser of the brethren” and would encourage you consider this attitude for yourself. And your last comment about “lack of faith” is extremely, extremely ironic, if you could only realize it.

IW82: You keep trying to emphasize the informality of it. That's not the point. The point is, is that it is done.

No, my point is you keep claiming its iron-clad, formal and legally binding. I want to see proof of this. If none exists, then it isn’t. That is all.

IW82: The Lord is not involved in any of these decisions.

You seem to be ignoring the strong possibility that the Lord is indirectly involved by allowing the brethren to make those decisions, but for His own purposes; which may be akin to G. Q. Cannons speculation.

IW82: C'mon, larsenb... I know that you are knowledgeable of the secret combinations and our church's involvement with them. Yet, you refuse to even consider it a possibility that "the Lord will never allow his Prophet to lead the church astray" could be false doctrine.

No, I’m not knowledgeable about “our church’s involvement with . . . secret combinations”. I’m aware of speculation about same, but have no exact knowledge. I see it more likely that some leaders have been taken in by the sophistries coming from these groups, to one degree or another, and act accordingly.

The idea that “the Lord will never allow his Prophet to lead the church astray” has been around for decades. Elder Benson voiced it in his 1963 “Be Not Deceived” talk. However, they usually qualify the statement with: before this happens, the Lord will remove him. But maybe the true qualification should be: “if the prophet does lead the people astray, the Lord will remove him, but perhaps after the damage is done”.

[Luke]

1. We have the literal words of Jesus Christ commanding W.W. NOT to concede to government.

Your item 1. We've discussed this before. We have a fundamental disagreement regarding the meaning of the documents you cite for this assertion.

The document he cited was Wilford Woodruff’s 1889 Revelation, which specifically said not to make concessions to the government. And here’s what the leaders thought of it at the time:

• "During our meeting a revelation was read which Pres. Woodruff received Sunday evening, Nov. 24th. Propositions had been made for the Church to make some concessions to the Courts in regard to its principles. Both of Pres. Woodruff's counselors refused to advise him as to the course he should pursue, and he therefore laid the matter before the Lord. The answer came quick and strong. The word of the Lord was for us not to yield one particle of that which He had revealed and established. He had done and would continue to care for His work and those of the Saints who were faithful and we need have no fear of our enemies when we were in the line of our duty. We are promised redemption and deliverance if we will trust in God and not in the arm of flesh. We were admonished to read and study the Word of God, and to pray often. The whole revelation was filled with words of the greatest encouragement and comfort, and my heart was filled with joy and peace during the entire reading. It sets all doubts at rest concerning the course to pursue." (Abraham H. Cannon's Journal, 19 December 1889)

But where the Lord says: “Let not my servants who are called to the Presidency of my Church deny my word or my law”, the Manifesto doesn’t do this in my view.

And the Lord saying: “I the Lord hold the destiny of the courts in your midst . . . in mine own hands”, does not mean the courts will be prevented from doing wrong, which they did with the SCOTUS decision, Spring 1890, in upholding the Edmunds-Tucker Act.

In fact, He further avers that He “will hold the courts . . . . responsible for their acts towards the inhabitants of Zion”, strongly implying to me that he did or would hold SCOTUS, etc., responsible for the damage they did and that would result from their decisions. He isn’t telling you about his timeline for doing this or what it entails.

And, as I will mention in my reply to IW82’s latest, with the 1890 SCOTUS decision, the church was already in supreme jeopardy, even after its counselors had pled in court against the Edmund’s Tucker Act. By this time, the “jeopardy" was a fait accompli.

Further, to my understanding, the Presidency and the twelve had unanimously approved of the Manifesto, and it was put to the general membership for approval in the Fall Conference of 1890.

Was Abraham H. Cannon one of these? My guess is the brethren, to include A. H. Cannon, accepted WW’s claim to visions and revelation about the course of action to follow.

Sorry larsenb, the facts show that the Manifesto was a political ploy, a sham, which went completely against the will of the Lord. The Lord said He would fight our battles, we didn’t have enough faith, we gave up the Most Holy Principle, and we came under condemnation for it. End of story.

[ampeterlin]

I just read David Whitmer's address to the church members. If interested here is the link:

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/address1.htm

[AGoodGlobalCitizen]

I just read David Whitmer's address to the church members. If interested here is the link:

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/address1.htm

It just might be the most important commentary on the Book of Mormon and particularly the choice seer/Lamanite prophet the Book of Mormon prophesies of

I'm not saying David is perfect. I'm not trying to put him on a pedestal, but whether or not polygamy is right or wrong, this guy said no to so much carnal pleasure. Do we ever really pause to consider what his standing would have brought him if he had been a yes man to Joseph and consider the strength of character it took to not say "Well, I guess you're right. Let me spend some time in the secret chamber"? He could have had so many spiritual wives. He knew it. And he said "no, I'm having no part of this."

He had no issue with standing up for something hated (the Book of Mormon, faithful witness his whole life). He didn't "betray" Joseph out of jealousy and seeking power. He associated with reformer movements in Mormonism but never took a serious role in seeking to build up his name by using a church or movement to provide him with fame, power and money (I understand he had followers and some sort of "church" but it was a small thing for people who believed the Book of Mormon was real and Joseph fell, it wasn't a church built for gain).


There are a million figures in scripture with the name of Joseph, which Joseph Smith and his father have as well. That is the only aspect of the choice seer mentioned in the Book of Mormon that Joseph Smith matches. David elaborating on a coming Choice Seer who will not fall, will shut the mouths of kings, and will show the Lamanite remnant who they are is one of the most important witnesses on the Book of Mormon that we have.

[TheDuke]

David left the church before polygamy was a thing. He did not leave over polygamy (reread the pamplet). He left over other issues and came back later to say polygamy was bad.

[Alexander]

David left the church before polygamy was a thing. He did not leave over polygamy (reread the pamplet). He left over other issues and came back later to say polygamy was bad.

"The doctrine of polygamy was not introduced until about fourteen years after the church was established; but other doctrines of error were introduced earlier than this. I left the body in June, 1838, being five years before polygamy was introduced."

[AGoodGlobalCitizen]

I understand that but Joseph was accusing Oliver of adultery (I'm trying to find a source on this, I believe I have read this a number of times before, I thought it was common knowledge, but now I've seen it isn't as clear as I'd thought, I am trying to find sources on Joseph calling Oliver an adulterer, I could be wrong and Joseph never said this to Oliver) when Oliver confronted Joseph about adultery;
"had some conversation in which in every instance I did not fail to affirm that which I had said was strictly true. A dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger's was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deserted from the truth in the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself."


That's 1838 when the Three Witnesses are on their way out.

As the polygamist secret combination in Mormonism grew more public, David never had a "moment of clarity" and realized a need to "repent and return to the fold and live the holy law of Celestial Plural Marriage, partaking of eternal blessings at the hands of the Lord's Anointed, even Joseph Smith" once the polygamist secret combination in Mormonism became more public. Which was something right there for him to partake of. Regardless of whether or not it was from God or Satan, his role as one of the three witnesses would have been huge for him to live it up in polygamist Mormonism.

If polygamy came from God, are we really deluded enough to think Joseph wouldn't welcome David back with open arms and help him partake of the beauty of secret plural marriages?

If polygamy was a man made philosophy, doesn't it boost Joseph's claim to practice it if one of the three witnesses realizes their mistake and returns to the fold to live it alongside him and the other leaders? That gives Joseph or Brigham more than enough incentive to let any of the three witnesses come back to bolster the polygamy argument (which Oliver did not do when he briefly returned, and Whitmer says Oliver's daughter expressed sadness to her over the abomination being practiced among the leaders of the church). This was an opportunity for power and considerable sexual gratification for any of the three witnesses to be a part of.

The polygamy pot was brewing as the three witnesses were on their way out the door. David never looked back or lusted to return to have the worldly power and carnal pleasure he could have had.

It is nothing short of definitively documented how close Oliver and his brother-in-law David were. Oliver was excommunicated for telling the truth (for the pro-polygamy crowd) about Joseph's affair with Fanny. For the "Joseph is innocent crowd", Oliver was lying for.... some.. reason (power? jealousy? pride? Lack of faith?)

Just because polygamy was extremely hushed down at that point (essentially just affairs without the celestial plural marriage framing) in the church does not mean that David was not aware of what Oliver knew as they both were leaving


There is a pattern of Joseph pursuing teenage girls and his closest peers (in terms of leadership in the church) leaving him over it (Oliver and Sydney).


This power and pleasure was at the fingertips of all three witnesses and none of them partook. Regardless of whether or not it was of God or Satan. This is huge self control. This is moral character. And this isn't something pointed out much about the Three Witnesses.


We just feel bad for poor, picked on Joseph for being betrayed.


Maybe thinking yourself above free speech isn't a grand idea. Maybe God doesn't really have the back of your movement if a newspaper is enough to ruin your movement. Who can stop the hand of God?


In the mouth of two or three witnesses, right? Who are the two or three witnesses most attached to the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith? And what do they say about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith?

[InfoWarrior82]

Oh, my. Nowhere have I said I approve of the activities that have gone on at Bohemian Grove in past decades.

Thank you for at least understanding the Bohemian Club is satanic in nature and that W.W. met with them in their revelry.

Your item 1. We've discussed this before. We have a fundamental disagreement regarding the meaning of the documents you cite for this assertion.

The Lord's words are plain to read and are unmistakable. https://archive.is/tGxvr

Thus saith the Lord to my servant Wilford. I, the Lord, have heard thy prayers and thy request, and will answer thee by the voice of my spirit.

Thus saith the Lord unto my servants the Presidency of My Church, who hold the Keys of the Kingdom of God on the earth. I the Lord hold the destiny of the courts in your midst, and the destiny of this nation, and all other nations of the earth, in mine own hands, and all that I have revealed and promised and decreed concerning the generation in which you live shall come to pass, and no power shall stay my hand.

Let not my servants who are called to the Presidency of my Church deny my word or my law, which concerns the salvation of the children of men.

Let them pray for the Holy Spirit which shall be given them to guide them in their acts. Place not yourselves in jeopardy to your enemies by promise. Your enemies seek your destruction and the destruction of my people. If the Saints will hearken unto my voice, and the counsel of my servants, the wicked shall not prevail.

Let my servants who officiate as your counselors before the courts make their pleadings as they are moved upon by the Holy Spirit, without any further pledges from the Priesthood, and they will be justified.

I, the Lord, will hold the courts, with the officers of government and the nation responsible for their acts towards the inhabitants of Zion.

I, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, am in your midst. I am your advocate with the Father. Fear not, little flock, it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the Kingdom. Fear not the wicked and ungodly.

Search the scriptures, for they are they which testify of me; also those revelations which I have given to my servant Joseph, and to all my servants since the world began, which are recorded in the records of divine truth.

Those revelations contain the judgments of God which are to be poured out upon all nations under the heavens, which include Great Babylon. These judgments are at the door. They will be fulfilled as God lives. Leave judgment with me, it is mine, saith the Lord. Watch the signs of the times and they will show the fulfillment of the words of the Lord.

Let my servants call upon the Lord in mighty prayer, retain the Holy Ghost as your constant companion and act as you are moved upon by that Spirit, and all will be well with you.

The wicked are fast ripening in iniquity, and they will be cut off by the judgments of God. Great events await you and this generation and are nigh at your doors. Awake! O Israel, and have faith in God and his promises and he will not forsake you. I the Lord will deliver my Saints from the dominion of the wicked in mine own due time and way.

I cannot deny my Word, neither in blessings nor judgments. Therefore let mine anointed gird up their loins, watch and be sober, and keep my commandments. Pray always and faint not. Exercise faith in the Lord and in the promises of God; be valiant in the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The eyes of the Lord and the Heavenly Hosts are watching over you and your acts. Therefore be faithful until I come. I come quickly to reward every man, according to the deeds done in the body. Even so, Amen.

Item 2: Try comparing what would have happened to the church and its members if WW (and the Lord) had bucked the Supreme Court decision to uphold the Tucker-Edmunds Act. Obviously, the Lord thought the alternative was the better course.

First, I don't think this "vision" was from the Lord at all. And, it appears that you and W.W. share the same lack of faith in the Lord. Please read His words posted above which details His promise to protect the church and its members if his commandments were kept.

Item 3: More supposition using sweeping generalizations. Your welcome to them, though. But not for me.

So you don't think the Bohemian Grove is satanic? Huh? Have you not watched the documentary I posted above that shows the "cremation of care" ritual?

Item 4: WW was a sick, 91 year old man who went to SF/Calif for R&R. He died due to his apparent illness. Those are the facts. As you know, the juxtaposition of events in time does not show causality.

Ok, so the Lord may have taken him after he went to revel with satanists at the Bohemian Club. Fair enough.

I'm not saying at all, that some of the informal alliances the Church is making and statements they are coming out with are not disturbing and maybe highly significant in a detrimental way. Far from it. My position is that the Lord is apparently allowing these actions for whatever reasons; maybe related to what George Q. Cannon has said on the subject.

You keep trying to emphasize the informality of it. That's not the point. The point is, is that it is done.

The Lord is not involved in any of these decisions. We have not had the literal words of the Lord since W.W.

And your: "I know you're smart enough" comment is amusing. Are you aware of the element of condescending, brow beating coercion it contains?

C'mon, larsenb... I know that you are knowledgeable of the secret combinations and our church's involvement with them. Yet, you refuse to even consider it a possibility that "the Lord will never allow his Prophet to lead the church astray" could be false doctrine.

IW82: Thank you for at least understanding the Bohemian Club is satanic in nature and that W.W. met with them in their revelry.

Don’t thank me. I’ve been aware of them for years. I’ve even been swimming in the Russian River, not far below the ‘grove’.

And saying the Bohemian Club is satanic in nature, is too much of a generality for me. It started out as a fun loving club by artistic types, but was taken over by power brokers at some point or gradually over time. It’s now a typical good-old-boys club. Many exist, to include our local Chambers of Commerce. Of course, the BC, is one of the more high-powered and notorious of these. And in so far as these types of organizations function primarily as self-serving power brockerages, I guess you could say they are satanic.

But your conflating WW having a dinner arranged for him at the club by a friend who was a member with being engaged with their “satanic . . . revelry”, is rather underhanded rhetoric imo.

IW82: Let them pray for the Holy Spirit which shall be given them to guide them in their acts. Place not yourselves in jeopardy to your enemies by promise. Your enemies seek your destruction and the destruction of my people. If the Saints will hearken unto my voice, and the counsel of my servants, the wicked shall not prevail.

Once again, I think you are misreading this passage. Looking at just the first sentence, WW actually complied with this and prayed for guidance regarding what to do after the SCOTUS decision and was given visions and revelations by the Lord as to what he should do. And because the wicked seemed to prevail with this decision, the last sentence may imply that the Saints had not hearkened to the Lord’s voice sufficiently.

Regarding the middle sentence, the church and its members were already in jeopardy by their enemies via the Edmunds-Tucker Act and its being upheld by the SCOTUS. The jeopardy was a fait accomplis. What does one do then? You pray for guidance, which is what WW did.

IW82: Let my servants who officiate as your counselors before the courts make their pleadings as they are moved upon by the Holy Spirit, without any further pledges from the Priesthood, and they will be justified.

It’s well documented that counselors of the church pled before the courts to counter the Edmunds-Tucker Act, but to no avail. I’ve asked you a couple of times now, for you to explain what you think “without any further pledges from the Priesthood, and they will be justified”, means. So far, no response to this. I’m frankly puzzled by the meaning.

IW82: First, I don't think this "vision" was from the Lord at all. And, it appears that you and W.W. share the same lack of faith in the Lord.

OK. You are essentially claiming WW was lying or a victim of self-deception when he claimed the Lord told him what to do in response to the SCOTUS decision. I personally try avoid being an “accuser of the brethren” and would encourage you consider this attitude for yourself. And your last comment about “lack of faith” is extremely, extremely ironic, if you could only realize it.

IW82: You keep trying to emphasize the informality of it. That's not the point. The point is, is that it is done.

No, my point is you keep claiming its iron-clad, formal and legally binding. I want to see proof of this. If none exists, then it isn’t. That is all.

IW82: The Lord is not involved in any of these decisions.

You seem to be ignoring the strong possibility that the Lord is indirectly involved by allowing the brethren to make those decisions, but for His own purposes; which may be akin to G. Q. Cannons speculation.

IW82: C'mon, larsenb... I know that you are knowledgeable of the secret combinations and our church's involvement with them. Yet, you refuse to even consider it a possibility that "the Lord will never allow his Prophet to lead the church astray" could be false doctrine.

No, I’m not knowledgeable about “our church’s involvement with . . . secret combinations”. I’m aware of speculation about same, but have no exact knowledge. I see it more likely that some leaders have been taken in by the sophistries coming from these groups, to one degree or another, and act accordingly.

The idea that “the Lord will never allow his Prophet to lead the church astray” has been around for decades. Elder Benson voiced it in his 1963 “Be Not Deceived” talk. However, they usually qualify the statement with: before this happens, the Lord will remove him. But maybe the true qualification should be: “if the prophet does lead the people astray, the Lord will remove him, but perhaps after the damage is done”.

How old is the "Cremation of Care" ritual? Do you know? At least since the 1880's. This is indeed satanic, wouldn't you say? The group that W.W. went to go meet with were certainly Gadiantons. Probably thanking him for "coming to his senses" and letting go of such silly things commanded him by the Lord.


It matters not if there is documentation regarding us joining with the gadiantons, because... we have joined with them. "Officially" or not, we are following their commands. Proudly and openly at that!

One thing you have failed to respond to is the fact that W.W. was indeed the final president of the Church to receive the literal words of Jesus Christ. Why do you skirt around this fact? This is the nail in the coffin and supports all my other points insisting that the Lord was displeased with him.

[Luke]

I understand that but Joseph was accusing Oliver of adultery when Oliver confronted Joseph about adultery;
"had some conversation in which in every instance I did not fail to affirm that which I had said was strictly true. A dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger's was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deserted from the truth in the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself."


That's 1838 when the Three Witnesses are on their way out.

As the polygamist secret combination in Mormonism grew more public, David never had a "moment of clarity" and realized a need to "repent and return to the fold and live the holy law of Celestial Plural Marriage, partaking of eternal blessings at the hands of the Lord's Anointed, even Joseph Smith" once the polygamist secret combination in Mormonism became more public. Which was something right there for him to partake of. Regardless of whether or not it was from God or Satan, his role as one of the three witnesses would have been huge for him to live it up in polygamist Mormonism.

If polygamy came from God, are we really deluded enough to think Joseph wouldn't welcome David back with open arms and help him partake of the beauty of secret plural marriages?

If polygamy was a man made philosophy, doesn't it boost Joseph's claim to practice it if one of the three witnesses realizes their mistake and returns to the fold to live it alongside him and the other leaders? That gives Joseph or Brigham more than enough incentive to let any of the three witnesses come back to bolster the polygamy argument (which Oliver did not do when he briefly returned, and Whitmer says Oliver's daughter expressed sadness to her over the abomination being practiced among the leaders of the church). This was an opportunity for power and considerable sexual gratification for any of the three witnesses to be a part of.

The polygamy pot was brewing as the three witnesses were on their way out the door. David never looked back or lusted to return to have the worldly power and carnal pleasure he could have had.

It is nothing short of definitively documented how close Oliver and his brother-in-law David were. Oliver was excommunicated for telling the truth (for the pro-polygamy crowd) about Joseph's affair with Fanny. For the "Joseph is innocent crowd", Oliver was lying for.... some.. reason (power? jealousy? pride? Lack of faith?)

Just because polygamy was extremely hushed down at that point (essentially just affairs without the celestial plural marriage framing) in the church does not mean that David was not aware of what Oliver knew as they both were leaving


There is a pattern of Joseph pursuing girls in the middle of their teenage years and his closest peers (in terms of leadership in the church) leaving him over it (Oliver and Sydney).


This power and pleasure was at the fingertips of all three witnesses and none of them partook. Regardless of whether or not it was of God or Satan. This is huge self control. This is moral character. And this isn't something pointed out much about the Three Witnesses.


We just feel bad for poor, picked on Joseph for being betrayed.


Maybe thinking yourself above free speech isn't a grand idea. Maybe God doesn't really have the back of your movement if a newspaper is enough to ruin your movement. Who can stop the hand of God?


In the mouth of two or three witnesses, right? Who are the two or three witnesses most attached to the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith? And what do they say about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith?

Do you believe in the story William Marks told? I.e. before Joseph’s death he renounced polygamy and tried to turn things around but it was too late

[Robbinius]

I’ve thanked you for your posts in here AGGC because they’ve made me consider a fifth possibility that I had been hesitant to consider. That Joseph was actually just a fallen prophet who practiced polygamy secretly and excommunicated others to hide his own sins. I’d been slow to consider this fact simply because I really didn’t want to. But you made me do it so thank you.

What I’m struggling with right now is finding any evidence that Joseph turned around and accused Oliver of practicing polygamy. Every accusation of Oliver I’m finding seems to be a creation of Brigham Young and his followers (And when they do, they hilariously contradict their own timelines to the point of disqualifying everything they say).

What evidence are you referring to that says Joseph ever accused Oliver of polygamy? It seems for me this is the point on which the entire fifth theory you posited rests. If Joseph didn’t actually turn around and accuse Oliver after Oliver’s letter to his brother mentioning the Fanny Alger thing (which I’m not positive is a genuine accusation toward Joseph), then I’m not sure I buy that Joseph actually was practicing polygamy.

[AGoodGlobalCitizen]

What I’m struggling with right now is finding any evidence that Joseph turned around and accused Oliver of practicing polygamy. Every accusation of Oliver I’m finding seems to be a creation of Brigham Young and his followers (And when they do, they hilariously contradict their own timelines to the point of disqualifying everything they say).

I have read a lot of things and I know that not everything I've read is honest or true. I know I have read exaggerations that are so exaggerated they're probably pure lies. I can not recall where I've read that Joseph accused Oliver of adultery when Oliver confronted Joseph about Fanny but I know I've read that.

Until I find the source, I will stop saying Joseph said that to Oliver. I will try and find the source tonight.

I know I have read that when Oliver and Joseph were on good terms, Oliver asked Joseph why they couldn't begin practicing polygamy in the early 1830s and Joseph (ever principled) told Oliver they needed to wait until the Lord allowed it. I don't believe that happened anymore than I believe the stories of Brigham's appearance, countenance and voice taking on Joseph's.

I believe sins and the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon (therefore Satan fights against the historicity of the Book of Mormon) have wrapped early Mormonism up in a mess of truth buried under contradicting statements and misdirection.

While I now think Joseph was a fallen prophet, I do not have an answer to every question I have about that. Why do firsthand accounts from Emma Smith show her continually denying Joseph was into polygamy? Why the lack of offspring of Joseph from other women? Why did Joseph's son so fully believe his father was innocent of the accusations? Why does Joseph allegedly have relationships with 30-40 women while the man closest to him, who supported him (Hyrum) seems to be so muted on potential polygamous relationships? Why did the other Smith brother die so suddenly after Joseph and Hyrum? Why do Joseph's dreams leading up to his death seem to imply he hadn't done wrong and others were ruining Mormonism?


I don't have answers to those questions and those questions (IMO) suggest that there could be something to the perspective of Joseph not being involved in polygamy.

But Joseph and Brigham making a statement together in 1842 that polygamy was wrong, WHILE LEAVING THE DOOR OPEN for potential farther light and knowledge to allow it (i've made a thread on this: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=60958&p=1142262#p1142262), on top of Oliver's thoughts on Fanny and Joseph, and Sidney's thoughts on Joseph and Nancy Rigdon, Whitmer being convinced that the "Joseph is innocent" crowd of their day was sadly wrong, and Joseph's lack of confidence in God protecting the Restoration movement from the dangers of a newspaper, the original revelation stating that Joseph had one gift and to pretend to no other gift (and then that being changed later), the Book of Mormon declaring someday a choice seer will come and David Whitmer's elaboration on this (coupled with all the Book of Isaiah theories and Mormon theories of an end-times servant) are the core reasons I now lean heavily toward the belief that Joseph was a fallen prophet

But like I said, I can't find where it was that I had seen Joseph accusing Oliver of adultery when Oliver confronted Joseph about Fanny. I swear I have read about this multiple times at different places (though that doesn't mean what I've read is true), so until I find better sourcing on this, I'll stop saying that

[InfoWarrior82]

I understand that but Joseph was accusing Oliver of adultery when Oliver confronted Joseph about adultery;
"had some conversation in which in every instance I did not fail to affirm that which I had said was strictly true. A dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger's was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deserted from the truth in the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself."


That's 1838 when the Three Witnesses are on their way out.

As the polygamist secret combination in Mormonism grew more public, David never had a "moment of clarity" and realized a need to "repent and return to the fold and live the holy law of Celestial Plural Marriage, partaking of eternal blessings at the hands of the Lord's Anointed, even Joseph Smith" once the polygamist secret combination in Mormonism became more public. Which was something right there for him to partake of. Regardless of whether or not it was from God or Satan, his role as one of the three witnesses would have been huge for him to live it up in polygamist Mormonism.

If polygamy came from God, are we really deluded enough to think Joseph wouldn't welcome David back with open arms and help him partake of the beauty of secret plural marriages?

If polygamy was a man made philosophy, doesn't it boost Joseph's claim to practice it if one of the three witnesses realizes their mistake and returns to the fold to live it alongside him and the other leaders? That gives Joseph or Brigham more than enough incentive to let any of the three witnesses come back to bolster the polygamy argument (which Oliver did not do when he briefly returned, and Whitmer says Oliver's daughter expressed sadness to her over the abomination being practiced among the leaders of the church). This was an opportunity for power and considerable sexual gratification for any of the three witnesses to be a part of.

The polygamy pot was brewing as the three witnesses were on their way out the door. David never looked back or lusted to return to have the worldly power and carnal pleasure he could have had.

It is nothing short of definitively documented how close Oliver and his brother-in-law David were. Oliver was excommunicated for telling the truth (for the pro-polygamy crowd) about Joseph's affair with Fanny. For the "Joseph is innocent crowd", Oliver was lying for.... some.. reason (power? jealousy? pride? Lack of faith?)

Just because polygamy was extremely hushed down at that point (essentially just affairs without the celestial plural marriage framing) in the church does not mean that David was not aware of what Oliver knew as they both were leaving


There is a pattern of Joseph pursuing girls in the middle of their teenage years and his closest peers (in terms of leadership in the church) leaving him over it (Oliver and Sydney).


This power and pleasure was at the fingertips of all three witnesses and none of them partook. Regardless of whether or not it was of God or Satan. This is huge self control. This is moral character. And this isn't something pointed out much about the Three Witnesses.


We just feel bad for poor, picked on Joseph for being betrayed.


Maybe thinking yourself above free speech isn't a grand idea. Maybe God doesn't really have the back of your movement if a newspaper is enough to ruin your movement. Who can stop the hand of God?


In the mouth of two or three witnesses, right? Who are the two or three witnesses most attached to the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith? And what do they say about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith?

Do you believe in the story William Marks told? I.e. before Joseph’s death he renounced polygamy and tried to turn things around but it was too late

This brings up an interesting point. If the doctrine of polygamy was false doctrine... then what did the Lord command us to continue doing in his revelation to W.W. in the 1889 revelation? What did the Lord command us not to concede to government about?

And what of the revelation received previously by President Taylor (1886) ?