Is this Mortal Life Similar to the Telestial Kingdom..??

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Silver Pie
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Re: Is this Mortal Life Similar to the Telestial Kingdom..??

Post by Silver Pie »

Robin Hood wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 7:10 amI agree with this, though it doesn't mean reincarnation as some think. The spirit world is a probation. There is potential for a number of probations, none of which necessarily requires mortality.
Intriguing thought. Will you please expound on what you mean? If a probation is not in a mortality, where is it?

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Is this Mortal Life Similar to the Telestial Kingdom..??

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For those interested in this topic I recommend reading The Ascension of Isaiah (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... nsion.html). The part where Isaiah, guided by an angel, ascends through the various degrees of glory begins at chapter 7.

Chapter 7

4. And he said unto me: "When I have raised thee on high [though the (various) degrees] and made thee see the vision, on account of which I have been sent, then thou wilt understand who I am: but my name thou dost not know.

5. Because thou wilt return into this thy body, but whither I am raising thee on high, thou wilt see; for for this purpose have I been sent."

6. And I rejoiced because he spake courteously to me.

7. And he said unto me: "Hast thou rejoiced because I have spoken courteously to thee?" And he said: "And thou wilt see how a grater also that I am will speak courteously and peaceably with thee."

8. And His Father also who is greater thou wilt see; for for this purpose have I been sent from the seventh heaven in order to explain all these things unto thee."

9. And we ascended to the firmament, I and he, and there I saw Sammael and his hosts, and there was great fighting therein and the angels of Satan were envying one another.

10. And as above so on the earth also; for the likeness of that which is in the firmament is here ont he earth.

11. And I said unto the angel (who was with me): "(What is this war and) what is this envying?"

12. And he said unto me: "So has it been since this world was made until now, and this war (will continue) till He, whom thou shalt see will come and destroy him."

13. And afterwards he caused me to ascend (to that which is) above the firmament: which is the (first) heaven.

In this document, the Telestial kingdom begins at the first heaven and the Terrestrial kingdom begins at the fourth heaven.

I do not subscribe to the idea that this earth is a Telestial kingdom. Joseph Smith describes the Telestial kingdom as being beyond description in section 76 of the D&C whereas this world can be easily described using earthly language. Also, the idea of a "kingdom" strongly suggests that a "king" should be ruling the kingdom. Our world is ruled by satan.

I'm now beginning to appreciate more and more the significance of apocryphal writings and my favourites of these are the Ascension of Isaiah and the Book of Enoch. These books are filled with temple imagery such as verse 4 above. Isaiah had asked the angel for his name and the angel replies that he has a name but that the name will not be revealed...

GO, and read the Ascension of Isaiah ;-)

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

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MikeMaillet
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Re: Is this Mortal Life Similar to the Telestial Kingdom..??

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Alexander wrote: March 23rd, 2021, 2:08 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 1:52 am So mortal probation is held in the telestial kingdom?
I thought 'telestial kingdom' was a kingdom of glory attained by some after final judgment?

In the final judgment, individuals are divided and sent to their place of glory. Those who were filthy remain filthy and are consigned to the telestial kingdom if they did not ascend to terrestrial glory through the baptism of fire and holy ghost. If they were sinful at death, they will remain sinful (their sinful state continues in their next life). They must endure another cycle of telestiality until they will repent and come unto Christ. Some will sadly remain telestial for eons and eons.
I have been thinking quite a bit about multiple mortal probations lately. The souls who inherit the Telestial kingdom are those that Christ has "cut off" because they failed to meet the standard to live in Christ's kingdom and I believe that they will be cut off forever. Maybe they can be saved in someone else's kingdom at a later date?

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

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Alexander
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Re: Is this Mortal Life Similar to the Telestial Kingdom..??

Post by Alexander »

MikeMaillet wrote: March 25th, 2021, 4:23 am
Alexander wrote: March 23rd, 2021, 2:08 pm
Cruiserdude wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 1:52 am So mortal probation is held in the telestial kingdom?
I thought 'telestial kingdom' was a kingdom of glory attained by some after final judgment?

In the final judgment, individuals are divided and sent to their place of glory. Those who were filthy remain filthy and are consigned to the telestial kingdom if they did not ascend to terrestrial glory through the baptism of fire and holy ghost. If they were sinful at death, they will remain sinful (their sinful state continues in their next life). They must endure another cycle of telestiality until they will repent and come unto Christ. Some will sadly remain telestial for eons and eons.
I have been thinking quite a bit about multiple mortal probations lately. The souls who inherit the Telestial kingdom are those that Christ has "cut off" because they failed to meet the standard to live in Christ's kingdom and I believe that they will be cut off forever. Maybe they can be saved in someone else's kingdom at a later date?

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario
They are cut off for as long as they do not repent. In order for one to be saved, they must enter in through the gate (doctrine of Christ: repentance, baptism of water, baptism of fire and Holy Ghost). Many will not enter simply because they choose not to and the path is narrow, therefore they are "cut off forever". Hence they are stuck in eternal telestiality in the ouroboros.

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Alexander
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Re: Is this Mortal Life Similar to the Telestial Kingdom..??

Post by Alexander »

nightlight wrote: March 21st, 2021, 10:25 pm
Alexander wrote: March 21st, 2021, 10:13 pm This realm is the telestial realm/kingdom.


"These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus."
Those who are telestial do not enter the gate, or come into the presence of God. They remain in their carnal state until they hear the voice of the spirit and come unto Him.

"These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit."
They are not to the degree where they have covenanted with satan, but they are telestial.

"These are they who are thrust down to hell."
They suffer hell on earth and in spirit prison. Hell is torment and anguish. Until they repent, they will be unsaved vagabond souls. This world is literally hell. It is a place of war, strife, famine, death, secret combinations, depravity, and degeneracy etc.

"These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;"
The terrestrial servants of God, in the flesh or in the spirit, minister to these souls and try to preach repentance to them.

"But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant."
Those who are telestial did not receive the gospel and ascend into a state of righteousness.

"Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud."
They cannot be numbered among the Lord's people in Zion, because they turn not unto the Lord. The unrighteous tares will be separated from the wheat.

"These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie."
The actions of the telestial, carnal man.

"These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth."
They suffer the judgment and condemnation of the Lord on earth because they do not repent.

"These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God."
They will suffer under the fire that consumes the wicked in the last day. They will be judged and sent to another telestial world if they do not repent.

"But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;"
Remember: enter ye in at the strait gate; for strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it; but wide is the gate, and broad the way which leads to death, and many there be that travel therein, until the night cometh, wherein no man can work. Many will never come unto the Lord. They will remain their telestial state for eternities.
It's not....

If you think this is Hell....lol

People who die in their sins are not reborn on earth.
To suffer the wrath of God on earth/physical world or in spirit prison, is to experience hell (hell, not Hell).

The spirit realm is a metaphysical dimension upon the earth. When a soul dies temporally/physically, their spirit remains upon the earth in a limbo or nexus. This nexus is essentially a junction or station of souls, where individuals are shuffled in and out of mortal life.

buffalo_girl
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Re: Is this Mortal Life Similar to the Telestial Kingdom..??

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Doctrine & Covenants 88 defines the process of progression from the mortal creation through the sanctified creation according to conformity to degrees of 'Law'.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 98,101,104
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law
26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.
I understand that when The Lord returns to counsel with His People ZION, those who abideth what I term 'the upgrade' will be living within a Terrestrial manifestation of the Creation on this Earth which according to D&C 88 is already abiding 'the Celestial law'.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... ng=eng#p25
Section 101 outlines how the 'upgrade' will occur when 'every corruptible thing on earth will be consumed at an elemental level'. We participate in The Creation by living laws which make it possible to 'abide' the changes necessary to become Terrestrial and/or Celestial beings.
22 Behold, it is my will, that all they who call on my name, and worship me according to mine everlasting gospel, should gather together, and stand in holy places;
23 And prepare for the revelation which is to come, when the veil of the covering of my temple, in my tabernacle, which hideth the earth, shall be taken off, and all flesh shall see me together.
24 And every corruptible thing, both of man, or of the beasts of the field, or of the fowls of the heavens, or of the fish of the sea, that dwells upon all the face of the earth, shall be consumed;
25 And also that of element shall melt with fervent heat; and all things shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the earth.
'Weeds' are often only a plant keeping another plant from developing according to a specific purpose for them. I cultivate nettles for their nutritional value and their benefit to the soil. I cannot imagine a life without their benefit to me and my household.

Ticks and other parasites which carry disease, provide no benefit, and also hedge up productivity in other lifeforms seem 'corruptible', to me. There are many human beings in this aspect of Creation which could be considered 'corruptible'.

I really don't want to continue into eternity with entities whose only purpose is exploit & corrupt.

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TheDuke
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Re: Is this Mortal Life Similar to the Telestial Kingdom..??

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Alexander, so you believe that telestial beings must always be reborn? I thought about this on another plane a while back. I was asking how God can handle those who cannot live within a law, but aren't worthy of only outer darkness. I guess it only makes sense to reduce their capability to increase power, or put them in a prison (which would not be a degree of glory). So, it would make sense to keep them forgetting their past and being reborn regularly (throw in some higher level beings to the mix to help teach and bring them to accepting the law) and it begins to look much like this mortality to me.

So, do you believe there is a life limit to terrestrial as well? or will terrestrial live forever, if so, would they trade in their bodies if/when they make it to the celestial?

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JK4Woods
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Re: Is this Mortal Life Similar to the Telestial Kingdom..??

Post by JK4Woods »

Luke wrote: March 21st, 2021, 5:38 pm It is the Telestial Kingdom. We are already here. Just trying to get out :)
So it will only get better here, (when the experiment is over); you know, after Satan and his most egregious followers are banished, and sin & temptation are no longer (all those third part spirits) around... ??

Will this life be hunky-dory and pretty dang nice?

Just asking, because I've pretty much been feeling that as I have far fewer years left in this mortal probation, I am more jaundiced about the wiley nature of mankind, and just don't have the energy to keep pushing, trying to climb the ladder of perfection. (An elusive goal in every regard).

Maybe rest, when it comes, will be really pretty nice, and we won't be hankering to be a ruler over many, or kingdoms and principalities, etc. etc.

The competitive nature of becoming more righteous/worthy/perfect than another; to be able to get to the highest level in Heaven, is what is becoming exhausting...

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Alexander
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Re: Is this Mortal Life Similar to the Telestial Kingdom..??

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TheDuke wrote: April 8th, 2021, 8:28 pm Alexander, so you believe that telestial beings must always be reborn? I thought about this on another plane a while back. I was asking how God can handle those who cannot live within a law, but aren't worthy of only outer darkness. I guess it only makes sense to reduce their capability to increase power, or put them in a prison (which would not be a degree of glory). So, it would make sense to keep them forgetting their past and being reborn regularly (throw in some higher level beings to the mix to help teach and bring them to accepting the law) and it begins to look much like this mortality to me.

So, do you believe there is a life limit to terrestrial as well? or will terrestrial live forever, if so, would they trade in their bodies if/when they make it to the celestial?
Telestial spirits receive eternal telistiality. They will continue to be born into the temporal sphere until they repent.



This opens up questions of condescension and foreordination, and the law of sacrifice.

As I see it, condescension is to acquiesce and relinquish one's glory/grace, to descend into the telestial temporal realm, becoming mortal again, with a foreordained mission to help save souls.

Terrestrial souls are the angels who dwell in the presence of God, yet these souls can condescend to become the servants/prophets of God if they choose, but this requires great sacrifice. These are the servants of God on the earth who preach repentance and the doctrine of Christ. Individuals progress from grace to grace, until they received a fulness. Otherwise they remain as the terrestrial angels in heaven.

There are 7 rungs of Jacob’s Ladder that the angels ascend and descned, which makes sense because 7 symbolically represents completion and terrestrial creation. Mary Magdalene was shown a vision of a tree of life with eight great boughs one must climb. She says whosoever listens to the Lord's words and ascends to the top receives a crown. 8 Represents celestial creation and kingship. Reminds me of the seed of life and the golden ratio; the flower of life. An ever-ascending spiral, and life that spreads out from the center of creation.

There is also 7 colors of the rainbow, which represent the overarching everlasting covenant. All colors combine to form and 8th color, which is pure white light. This is why God has the rainbow as the sign of his covenant.

Alma talks about foreordination in Alma 13 I think. At some point there must be a time when the servants of God are to "go no more out", meaning they no longer descend into the temporal realm.


There is some really symbolic stuff with male-female dualism.

"Whosoever will save his life will lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my name sake shall find it."

It is through the female that we are born into the world by temporal birth, yet by consequence brings spiritual death and separation from God.

It is through the male that we are born again in the spirit and escape the world, but such a gift requires you to lose your own temporal life to come back into the presence of God.

Male - Female. Sine - Cosine. Mountains - valleys. Ascension - Descension. Sword - Challace.



This probably sounds like some weird pseudo-gnostic vision, but this is what I understand.

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TheDuke
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Re: Is this Mortal Life Similar to the Telestial Kingdom..??

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Thanks, I have yet to grasp the breadth of this mortal probation.I agree it is more than it appears to be. More revelations needed. Today is one day in my life at some vortex or crossroads of ascension or descension path. I've waited many years for today, but apparently things are not yet settled. I hope I will understand more of how this works in the future. I had some exchange with Amonhi (el liason) on another thread where he lays out some stuff of telestial, terrestrial and celestial all living among us. But it doesn't fit with what I've learned or seen or been taught. But, adds food for thought.

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JK4Woods
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Re: Is this Mortal Life Similar to the Telestial Kingdom..??

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Luke wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 10:53 amWe know that all nature is going to come back again, that’s a guarantee, that life can return, it is eternal. But it has to be done, you can’t do it in one long stretch, there have to be dispensations, periods, and life cycles. So you have to lie down, be buried, and then rise again, in the water, and this is the pattern of the whole thing in the temple.” (Hugh Nibley, The Meaning of Temples)

Thanks Luke, this triggered another tangent within me.
When "all is burned", isn't that the way everything corrupted will be purged/destroyed/cleansed?

I mean, fire is effective at limiting the propagation of weeds. And if the elements melt with fervent heat, all natural things will be burned up and gone.

I think about this as I use the propane weed burner to burn up errant grasses and weeds around the garden.
Right after the spring rains, the weed seeds sprout and start growing. They are often quick about it, jumping up and leafing in the gravel paths between planting areas.

When they look about ready to turn to seed, I go around and hit them with the quick start trigger blowtorch, and burn them up.
This manages to wipe out the current seeds that have sprouted, and stops the seed pods/heads from blowing in the wind distributing the weeds to other places.

A couple of cycles of doing this, and I barely have any weeds in the garden anymore... just ones that blow in over the wall, or come in the bags of fertilizer and soil conditioner.


There are some weeds I have a tough time eradicating.... dandelions and crab grass in the lawn, and errant alfalfa heads also in the lawn. Chemical weed sprays only seems to knock them back for awhile. They always seem to recover, because of the fertilizer and regular watering for the whole lawn, allows these nuisances to revive and start choking parts of the lawn again.

Digging them out, leaves bald patches in the lawn, and the normal grass is very slow to creep in and take over the open patches of dirt.
Replanting grass seed, has the neighborhood birds come in and feast on the newly laid seeds. And often, the hotter parts of the season have come, and new seedings have a hard time gaining a foothold. They usually just expire from the heat.

So I let the crabgrass and alfalfa live among the lawn, and set the mower to a slightly lower level to cut off the heads, and try and keep them controlled. From a distance, the lawn looks green and luxurious. But up close and examining it in detail, one can see the struggle continues.


Back to Brother Nibley's statement; "that all Nature will be back", with the earth being burned... What will bring nature back..?? Is that the first order of business of those allotted to make this globe their eternal home: Re-plant and re-populate the world with complimentary plants, insects and animals..??

Or will it become a glass orb, an Urim & Thumin with streets paved in gold with even season of robe wearing weather..??

(So many mysteries... so little time...;-)

buffalo_girl
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Re: Is this Mortal Life Similar to the Telestial Kingdom..??

Post by buffalo_girl »

So many mysteries... so little time...
Love that quote!

In a Jeremy Brett, Sherlock Holmes episode in which his investigation led him to an elaborate mid-summer's masquerade gathering on an aristocrat's estate, he said, "So many people; so little purpose."

Perhaps The Lord will simply remove the clutter and confusion made by people, and reset the balance of His Creation and Purpose. Very few humans have learned to conform to His Laws in harmony with the rest of Creation.
Doctrine & Covenants 88
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law
26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

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LDS Physician
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Re: Is this Mortal Life Similar to the Telestial Kingdom..??

Post by LDS Physician »

I believe some are here (like Jesus) because they descend to aid telestial people advance/learn/grow/ascend.

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