The long lost literal gathering

[Pazooka]

This topic has been on my mind a lot. Our AoF says we believe in the “literal gathering of Israel” but that’s not what we’ve been doing. McConkie tries to say this gathering is spiritual and that the physical part is the assembling of people all over the world in stakes from whence the waters of life can flow to the people. Funny thing, though...in order to have a stake of Zion, one has to have *actual Zion* as the central tent pole.

There is so much in early Restoration writings that indicate the vision and goal has definitely changed. Should we really be scattered all over the world or should we have done what Christ commanded us to and *literally* gather in preparation for His coming and the indignations that will precede it?

Should we really have temples dotting the earth? Is there scripture to support that? Or should we be reading about the sins of Ephraim about multiplying temples, in Hosea 8, and be applying them to ourselves? If we were literally gathered/ing we would not need hundreds of temples.

And we further testify that the Lord has appointed a holy city and temple to be built on this continent, for the endowment and ordinances pertaining to the priesthood; and for the Gentiles, and the remnant of Israel to resort unto, in order to worship the Lord, and to be taught in his ways and walk in his paths; in short, to finish their preparations for the coming of the Lord.

And we further testify, that the Jews among all nations are hereby commanded, in the name of the Messiah, to prepare, to return to Jerusalem in Palestine, and to rebuild that city and temple unto the Lord.

And also to organize and establish their own political government, under their own rulers, judges, and governors, in that country.

For be it known unto them that we now hold the keys of the priesthood and kingdom which is soon to be restored unto them.

Therefore let them also repent, and prepare to obey the ordinances of God. (Messages of the First Presidency, 1:254)

[Alexander]

I was in institute a few weeks ago, and the majority of the meeting was talking about a figurative gathering on "both sides of the veil": temple work and genealogy and busy work like that. I raised my hand and asked about the literal gathering as prophesied in the Book of Mormon and referenced in the articles of Faith, how we must be gathered to the New Jerusalem.

My institute teacher said there won't really be one literally in a manner like I said; that the majority of the gathering is to the temple, and not everyone would come to Jackson County.

This figurative "gathering" spoken of by leaders has corrupted the minds of the youth.

[Pazooka]

I was in institute a few weeks ago, and the majority of the meeting was talking about a figurative gathering on "both sides of the veil": temple work and genealogy and busy work like that. I raised my hand and asked about the literal gathering as prophesied in the Book of Mormon and referenced in the articles of Faith, how we must be gathered to the New Jerusalem.

My institute teacher said there won't really be one literally in a manner like I said; that the majority of the gathering is to the temple, and not everyone would come to Jackson County.

This figurative "gathering" spoken of by leaders has corrupted the minds of the youth.

Yeah, I think you’re right. I guess his is the position you’d have to take if you don’t want to face the fact that we are in total breach of our mandate.

[Pazooka]

The leaders of the Church “see great wisdom in the multiple Zions.”

Now, the gathering of Israel consists of joining the true church and their coming to a knowledge of the true God. Any person, therefore, who has accepted the restored gospel, and who now seeks to worship the Lord in his own tongue and with the Saints in the nations where he lives, has complied with the law of the gathering of Israel and is heir to all of the blessings promised the Saints in these last days.

The Saints are no longer to come to a single place. In 1955, Sister Kimball and I went to Europe. We spent six months touring all of the missions in Europe. The people were still laboring under the impression that they should come to America for the gathering process. The burden of our sermons to them was, "Stay where you are. You have received the gospel. The blessings will be brought to you. It will not be long until you have stakes, and the Brethren will come across the ocean to visit you. Eventually temples will come, and you will have all the blessings of Zion."

Now you folks of South America are in a different category: you have always lived in Zion. One of the Brethren said that Zion was all of America and that it is like a great bird with two wide wings: North America and South America.

Many people have been holding their breath waiting to see the gathering of Israel. We are in Israel and are being gathered.

Now, in the early days of the Church we used to preach for the people to come to Utah as the gathering process, largely because that was the only place in the whole world where there was a temple. Now we have sixteen temples, and two more that have been approved, scattered throughout the world. So it is no longer necessary that we bring the people all to Salt Lake City. Our missionaries preach baptism and confirmation. And then we come to you with conferences and to organize stakes. So we say again, stay in Korea. This is a beautiful land. In this land you can teach your children just as well as you could in Salt Lake City. Stay in Korea where you can teach the gospel to millions of people.

And so the gathering is taking place. Korea is the gathering place for Koreans, Australia for Australians, Brazil for Brazilians, England for the English. And so we move forward toward the confirmation of this great program the Lord has established for us.

The First Presidency and the Twelve see great wisdom in the multiple Zions, many gathering places where the Saints within their own culture and nation can act as a leaven in the building of the kingdom -- a kingdom which seeks no earthly rewards or treasures. ~ The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, pg. 438-440

[abijah`]

Yeah I definitely think its BOTH spiritual and literal. Just like basically everything else in the Gospel, I don't get this whole "either/or" dichotomy being applied to everything when I reckon Jesus Christ is God literally AND symbolically, the Cosmic Nexus of heaven (meaning) and earth (matter), and the rest of the Gospel reflects that.

I definitely think there will be a literal gathering but would only be guessing as to when and how it would go down, or what would catalyse it.

But I also think there will be a spiritual/metaphysical gathering, I think "one mind, one heart" refers to something deeper and more real than we tend to give credit for. I speculated on the subject in a post a few days ago:

Methinks the New-Jerusalem edifice that John and Ezekiel be talking about is mayhaps not quite what we think it is

If you think about it, the "Internet" is basically just one big digital superstructure. A temple of sorts, a grand cosmic union of consciousnesses, amalgamated and ever-changing image that reflects all those actively participating in it. My boy Jonathan Pageau has some powerful thoughts on how the web and how algorithms and AI are, symbolically speaking, the perfect representation of a "fallen angel"

I think the New Jerusalem community, and its Temple are essentially going to be God's true, full-and-original version of whatever the "Internet" and all the interconnected computer systems are mimicking/counterfeiting. I think "Zion" = God's peculiar people, interconnected into a grand, metaphysical "Hive", or multi-diverse supraorganism of sorts, consecrated to Name of the Lord and made holy to Him. A Christ-Internet, mind-to-mind, heart-to-heart, thought-to-thought, breath-to-breath, soul-to-soul. The one he intended from the beginning, the Bride.

[ransomme]

Well we have scriptures telling us that there will be a physical gather. The events in the BoM preceding the Lord's coming will play out, not in order per see, but in kind.

3 Nephi 3:22-25
22 And it came to pass in the seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which chad been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies.

23 And the land which was appointed was the land of Zarahemla, and the land which was between the land Zarahemla and the land Bountiful, yea, to the line which was between the land Bountiful and the land Desolation.

24 And there were a great many thousand people who were called Nephites, who did gather themselves together in this land. Now Lachoneus did cause that they should gather themselves together in the land southward, because of the great curse which was upon the bland northward.

25 And they did fortify themselves against their enemies; and they did dwell in one land, and in one body, and they did fear the words which had been spoken by Lachoneus, insomuch that they did repent of all their sins; and they did put up their prayers unto the Lord their God, that he would deliver them in the time that their enemies should come down against them to battle.

Flee Babylon

Isaiah 48:20–21; cf. 1 Nephi 20:20–21
Go forth out of Babylon, flee from Chaldea! Make this announcement with resounding voice; broadcast it to the end of the earth. Say, Jehovah has redeemed his servant Jacob.
They thirsted not when he led them through arid places: he caused water to flow for them from the rock; he cleaved the rock and water gushed out.

Isaiah 43:5–7
I will bring your offspring from the east and gather you from the west; I will say to the north, Give up! to the south, Withhold not! Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth— all who are called by my name, whom I have formed, molded and wrought for my own glory.

Isaiah 51:11; cf. 2 Nephi 8:11
Let the ransomed of Jehovah return! Let them come singing to Zion, their heads crowned with everlasting joy; let them obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing flee away.

Isaiah 43:2
When you cross the waters, I will be with you; [when you traverse] the rivers, you shall not be overwhelmed.
Though you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned; its flame shall not consume you.

and many more about the tribes returning

[Luke]

Gathering of Israel was thrown out to appease the world. Can’t look weird by separating ourselves from Babylon can we?

[JK4Woods]

Gathering of Israel was thrown out to appease the world. Can’t look weird by separating ourselves from Babylon can we?

I actually long for the past day when we were to "be in the world, but not of the world" and "Mormons ARE a peculiar people". We're supposed to be....

[Luke]

Gathering of Israel was thrown out to appease the world. Can’t look weird by separating ourselves from Babylon can we?

I actually long for the past day when we were to "be in the world, but not of the world" and "Mormons ARE a peculiar people". We're supposed to be....

It’s impossible to be in the world but not of the world. We are called to FLEE Babylon (the world)

In fact the Scripture says “anything that is of the world is NOT of the Father”

The Book of Mormon goes on and on about separating ourselves from the mainstream

[JK4Woods]

Gathering of Israel was thrown out to appease the world. Can’t look weird by separating ourselves from Babylon can we?

I actually long for the past day when we were to "be in the world, but not of the world" and "Mormons ARE a peculiar people". We're supposed to be....

It’s impossible to be in the world but not of the world. We are called to FLEE Babylon (the world)

In fact the Scripture says “anything that is of the world is NOT of the Father”

The Book of Mormon goes on and on about separating ourselves from the mainstream

I agree 100% with you Luke. Time to dis-engage with Babylon. Enough with our whole lives being enmeshed with Babylonian economics and complete reliance for our "comfortable retirement".


Ahh... but don't rock the boat...!!
Can't disrupt the current income stream...!!
Non-visionary men can't see how things could be different...

[Luke]

Gathering of Israel was thrown out to appease the world. Can’t look weird by separating ourselves from Babylon can we?

I actually long for the past day when we were to "be in the world, but not of the world" and "Mormons ARE a peculiar people". We're supposed to be....

It’s impossible to be in the world but not of the world. We are called to FLEE Babylon (the world)

In fact the Scripture says “anything that is of the world is NOT of the Father”

The Book of Mormon goes on and on about separating ourselves from the mainstream

I agree 100% with you Luke. Time to dis-engage with Babylon. Enough with our whole lives being enmeshed with Babylonian economics and complete reliance for our "comfortable retirement".


Ahh... but don't rock the boat...!!
Can't disrupt the current income stream...!!
Non-visionary men can't see how things could be different...

“Don’t rock the boat”, a classic one

In other words, “sit down, shut up, and comply or else”

[Pazooka]

Gathering of Israel was thrown out to appease the world. Can’t look weird by separating ourselves from Babylon can we?

Here’s a gem for you that talks about exactly that - how gathering is in direct opposition to desiring the flatteries of the world:

Having then knowledge of these things, and the voice of God being unto us, to gather together, and make a covenant with our God by sacrifice. We have given heed thereunto, and, are here this day as witnesses for God, that he was not spoken in vain, neither has he said in vain. But the day and the hour of his judgements sleepeth not, neither do they slumber: and whether men believe or do not believe, it alters not the word which God has caused to be spoken, but come it must, and come it will, and that to the astonishment, the confusion, and the dismay, of thousands who believe not, neither will they regard, until overtaken by it as a thief in the night, and sudden distruction come upon them, and there be none to deliver.

Knowing therefore the terrors of the Lord, we warn our fellow men, not only by precept, but example also, by leaving our former homes, to which we were bound by the strongest ties, suffering a sacrifice of the greatest share ofour earthly possessions. Many of us, in times past, were rich, but for Jesus’ sake, and at the command of our God we have become poor, because he -[Christ]- became poor for our sakes; so in like manner, we follow his example, and become poor for his sake.

And as Moses left Egypt not fearing the wrath of the king, and refused to be called the son of Pharoah’s daughter, choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season, having respect to the recompence of reward. So do we, we choose to suffer affliction with the people of God, rather than enjoy the flatteries of the world for a season.
It is not because we cannot, if we were so disposed, enjoy both the honors and flatteries of the world, but we have voluntarily offered them in sacrifice, and the riches of the world also, for a more durable substance. ~ Sidney Rigdon, July 1838https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ource-note

[Pazooka]

What, exactly, is the gathering as set forth in the Holy scriptures? I’m determined to find out.

He [Joseph Smith] then spoke to the elders respecting their mission, and advised those who went into the world, to preach the gospel, to leave their families provided for, with the necessaries of life; and to teach the gathering as set forth in the Holy scriptures. ~ JS, Discourse, Nauvoo [Commerce], Hancock Co., IL, 8 Apr. 1840. Featured version published in “Conference Minutes,” Times and Seasons, Apr. 1840, 94.

[Pazooka]

An interesting glimpse into what JS anticipated the gathering to look like:

It is wisdom in God that the saints as fast as for convenient should come up and we should enter into as compact a city as possible. we are not grea[t]ly distressed nor ever will be— a stake appointed— this is the principle place of gathering Therefore as many as can come let the Brethren begin to roll in like clouds we will sell you lots and if you cant pay for them you shall [have] them whosoever will come let them come and partake of the poverty of Nauvoo freely and those who who partake of our poverty shall [be?] greatly blessed yea exceedingly for if they come in times of prosperity will put on their long faced pharisaical visages and blow us up and this proclamation goes forth from this hour bring every thing you can bring and build the house of God and we will have a tremenduous City which shall reverberate afar— afar— and we will have a great observatory great great high watch tower then comes all the ancient records dig them up thus shall the poor be fed by the curious who where the Saints g[ather] is Zion which <​the​> ene [rig]hteous will build u[p] a place of safety for their children and those who do not come in due season shall scarce escape with <​their lives​> those that cease to <​be​> saviours of men they shall be troden under the feet of their enemies for their transgression instance Reed peck. The redemption of Zion is the salvation of Zion this country which is north and south America some consider the olive trees to be Jackson Co but one is not 12 six some have a temple begun 12 olive T<​rees​>8 are 12 Stakes [illegible] the seed of 12 olive [tree]s are scattered it [illegible] wake up the na[tio]ns— The nations will [wa]r with each other [w]hile the Saints are uilding the 12 I had [a] vision on the other side of the river that my armies were about ne [me] and I ran from brethren— who were shooting at me swan [swam] the river and found safety on this side Go tell all my servants who are the Strength of my house &c10 this time this wil nation will be trembling then shall foreign Saints come and all the saints shall come [an]d fight for God. they hall come to the land [of] my vinyard [T]hen will Kings queens [r]ulers come and help buil[d] up Zion reason[in]g cant [he]lp themselves—— therefore go to with your might build build and you shall inherit it long and be blessed and the rising generation shall awake the nations make kngdoms tremble and the earth shake to the centre and God will bless the great rulers and cast a vot[e] against van buren12 before Jerusalem must be built up Zion also efore the Coming of Christ this will take near 60 years. All who can coolly and deliberately dispose of their property and come and give their property to the poor an[d] worship God O bretheren come— I prophcy [prophesy] this state shall become greate and <​a​> mighty mountain— and this will be the greatest city in the world. curse the man who says you are a mean man because you do not believe as I do— all libe[r]al men o come up [t]o nauvoo and help us to build up the City of God— Go the oposition from without does not compare with that within. Moses led the children of Israel. the calamatiyes which happened to them is was in consequence of rebeling against moses— rbelious [rebellious] here also— when I disbelheve in Joseph I will ask God for another is God a monarch if you disbelieve an honorable way is to say I would rather be damned than to follow self exaltation first cause of sin— prayer— first <​thy kingdom come— thy will​> be done on earth as in the H[e]aven—18 what would we do singing forever an[d] ever ans.— starve to death the Kingdom— O[f]— G[od]— is like purified Elements— like 2 1000ds and 1000ds Of worlds have been to effect the purif[y]ing is to pray for the Kingdom come &c forgive as we are forgiven God had no hand in put[t]ing men in prison for debt but devils incarnate— were the flame to roll as fast as we want it to it would crush half the church before it touched the world— righteous principles— instanse— a man that has the Kingdom and its righteousness knows how to manage property what the bishops do is by drection of the presidency19 sectarians worship the 12 apostles— I don’t think that a man who says he will [illegible] shall come forom [from] all parts of the world and I prophecy that pleasure parties come from england to see ther mamoth and like Sheba— and schools houses and great men’s sons shall board here and crave the privelidges of educating there children here and then I prophecy shall the Saints chink the money in their pockets, which they shall give And obligate myself to build as great a house as ever Solomen didand if the church will back me up— and it shall impov[e]rish no one but enrich thousands The time comes when these Saints shall ride proudly over the mountains of Mis[so]uri and no gentile dog dog shall dare lift a tongue but shall lck up the dust of their feet in the name of Jesus May many here realised this and see it with their eyes I myself also is my prayer— Amen—“ ~ JS, Discourse, [Nauvoo, Hancock Co., IL, ca. 19 July 1840]. Featured version copied [between ca. 19 July 1840 and 1844] in Martha Jane Knowlton Coray, Notebook, ca. 1840–1844, pp. [12]–[18]; and in Lucy Mack Smith, History, 1845, miscellaneous documents; two pages; handwriting of Martha Jane Knowlton Coray; CHL.

[Silver Pie]

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