Book of Mormon Error?

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Craig Johnson
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Book of Mormon Error?

Post by Craig Johnson »

Here goes.

I am reluctant to put this out for a few reasons 1) I don’t want anyone to think I have gone nuts, 2) I don’t want anyone to think I have lost faith in the religion of the church, 3) I don’t want a bunch troll comments that I will need to ignore, 4) I don’t want anyone to think that I sit around trying to pick the Book of Mormon apart and 5) I don’t want anyone to think that I totally do not accept treatments that have been done on the subject I will bring up.

I hope I can make this clear.

In the Book of Mormon I have found what I feel is an error. Maybe I am wrong. (Read Helaman 15:3,4). In verse 4 it is stated that (and I paraphrase) God hates the Lamanites.

I believe the sentence in verse 4 instead of reading “But behold my brethren, the Lamanites hath he hated because their deeds have been evil continually, and this because of the iniquity of the tradition of their fathers.” should read “But behold my brethren, the evil deeds of the Lamanites hath He hated because they have been evil continually, and this because of the iniquity of the tradition of their fathers.”

I am aware of other treatments of this verse such as:

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... -lamanites

But I, personally, while accepting the legitimacy of the above link argument, do not believe it fits this verse. The Prophet Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon is the “the most correct of any book on earth” but he did not say that the Book of Mormon has no errors. In fact Nephi warned that “if there are faults they are the mistakes of men.” And I believe that and I believe in the sacred nature of the Book of Mormon.

I invite your discussion.

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Alexander
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by Alexander »

Webster's 1828 English Dictionary states,
HATE, verb transitive [Latin odi, for hodi.]
1. To dislike greatly; to have a great aversion to. It expresses less than abhor, detest, and abominate, unless pronounced with a peculiar emphasis.
2. In Scripture, it signifies to love less.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia states,
"Sometimes, however, the word "hate" is used hyperbolically in a relative sense to express only the strong preference of one to another. God loved Jacob, but hated Esau (Malachi 1:3 Romans 9:13); father and mother are to be hated in comparison with Christ (Luke 14:26; compare Matthew 10:37)."

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Craig Johnson
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Posts: 1991
Location: Washington State.

Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by Craig Johnson »

Alexander wrote: April 7th, 2021, 7:57 pm Webster's 1828 English Dictionary states,
HATE, verb transitive [Latin odi, for hodi.]
1. To dislike greatly; to have a great aversion to. It expresses less than abhor, detest, and abominate, unless pronounced with a peculiar emphasis.
2. In Scripture, it signifies to love less.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia states,
"Sometimes, however, the word "hate" is used hyperbolically in a relative sense to express only the strong preference of one to another. God loved Jacob, but hated Esau (Malachi 1:3 Romans 9:13); father and mother are to be hated in comparison with Christ (Luke 14:26; compare Matthew 10:37)."
The reason I cannot accept the argument you make, though it is rather erudite, is because I don't place a lot of faith in what has come down to us from the scribes and translators of the centuries, nothing like I place faith in the work done by the Prophet Joseph Smith, whom I consider a true prophet-translator. It would take a large book to explain my position with regard to that, and I have not even written that book yet. And as far as the bible goes, I place a lot more faith in what we have received in the Old Testament than the New. Nothing we have in the New Testament is backed up by extant, original documents. You could probably, legitimately make that argument for the Old Testament, but we have some very interesting old manuscripts that are just about that.
Last edited by Craig Johnson on April 7th, 2021, 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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nightlight
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by nightlight »

Craig Johnson wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:06 pm
Alexander wrote: April 7th, 2021, 7:57 pm Webster's 1828 English Dictionary states,
HATE, verb transitive [Latin odi, for hodi.]
1. To dislike greatly; to have a great aversion to. It expresses less than abhor, detest, and abominate, unless pronounced with a peculiar emphasis.
2. In Scripture, it signifies to love less.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia states,
"Sometimes, however, the word "hate" is used hyperbolically in a relative sense to express only the strong preference of one to another. God loved Jacob, but hated Esau (Malachi 1:3 Romans 9:13); father and mother are to be hated in comparison with Christ (Luke 14:26; compare Matthew 10:37)."
The reason I cannot accept the argument you make, though it is rather erudite, is because I don't place a lot of faith in what has come down to us from the scribes and translators of the centuries, nothing like I place faith in the work done by the Prophet Joseph Smith, whom I consider a true prophet-translator. It would take a large book to explain my position with regard to that, and I have not even written that book yet. And as far as the bible goes, I place a lot more faith in what we have received in the Old Testament than the New. Nothing we have in the New Testament is backed up by extant, original documents. You could probably, legitimately make that argument for the Old Testament, but we have some very interesting old manuscripts that just about that.

Whats is in the New Testament that you don't place faith in?

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Alexander
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by Alexander »

Craig Johnson wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:06 pm
Alexander wrote: April 7th, 2021, 7:57 pm Webster's 1828 English Dictionary states,
HATE, verb transitive [Latin odi, for hodi.]
1. To dislike greatly; to have a great aversion to. It expresses less than abhor, detest, and abominate, unless pronounced with a peculiar emphasis.
2. In Scripture, it signifies to love less.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia states,
"Sometimes, however, the word "hate" is used hyperbolically in a relative sense to express only the strong preference of one to another. God loved Jacob, but hated Esau (Malachi 1:3 Romans 9:13); father and mother are to be hated in comparison with Christ (Luke 14:26; compare Matthew 10:37)."
The reason I cannot accept the argument you make, though it is rather erudite, is because I don't place a lot of faith in what has come down to us from the scribes and translators of the centuries, nothing like I place faith in the work done by the Prophet Joseph Smith, whom I consider a true prophet-translator. It would take a large book to explain my position with regard to that, and I have not even written that book yet. And as far as the bible goes, I place a lot more faith in what we have received in the Old Testament than the New. Nothing we have in the New Testament is backed up by extant, original documents. You could probably, legitimately make that argument for the Old Testament, but we have some very interesting old manuscripts that just about that.
Welp, I dunno what you want. I tried giving professional and even contemporaneous evidence for the word "hate" being used hyperbolically in this instance, but you call it erudite.

Most of the concerns or even anachronisms of the Book of Mormon come from a misunderstanding of the word used in the translation. The English given word's direct meaning is misapplied because it was the closest word given for something in the reformed Egyptian. Remember the Nephites are translating it from their spoken tongue into Reformed Egyptian, and then Joseph by the power of the Holy Spirit is attributing words best suited for that phrase in the plates.

People get too nitpicky of the words used in the Book of Mormon. Moroni was concerned that because of the weakness of the words (the symbols and the clear understanding of those words) the Gentiles would mock. Moroni even explains how the language of the Brother of Jared was more clear and expressive filled with more description, but the language of the Nephites was more limited.

Ether 12
23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them;
24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them.
25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words.
26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;
27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

As we seek the lord in humility and repentance, the weakness of the words will be made strong unto us, and we will understand.

Title page of the Book of Mormon
"and now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ."

Mormon 8
12 And whoso receiveth this record, and shall not condemn it because of the imperfections which are in it, the same shall know of greater things than these. Behold, I am Moroni; and were it possible, I would make all things known unto you.
...
17 And if there be faults they be the faults of a man. But behold, we know no fault; nevertheless God knoweth all things; therefore, he that condemneth, let him be aware lest he shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mormon 9
31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.
32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.
33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

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Craig Johnson
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Posts: 1991
Location: Washington State.

Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by Craig Johnson »

nightlight wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:08 pm
Craig Johnson wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:06 pm
Alexander wrote: April 7th, 2021, 7:57 pm Webster's 1828 English Dictionary states,
HATE, verb transitive [Latin odi, for hodi.]
1. To dislike greatly; to have a great aversion to. It expresses less than abhor, detest, and abominate, unless pronounced with a peculiar emphasis.
2. In Scripture, it signifies to love less.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia states,
"Sometimes, however, the word "hate" is used hyperbolically in a relative sense to express only the strong preference of one to another. God loved Jacob, but hated Esau (Malachi 1:3 Romans 9:13); father and mother are to be hated in comparison with Christ (Luke 14:26; compare Matthew 10:37)."
The reason I cannot accept the argument you make, though it is rather erudite, is because I don't place a lot of faith in what has come down to us from the scribes and translators of the centuries, nothing like I place faith in the work done by the Prophet Joseph Smith, whom I consider a true prophet-translator. It would take a large book to explain my position with regard to that, and I have not even written that book yet. And as far as the bible goes, I place a lot more faith in what we have received in the Old Testament than the New. Nothing we have in the New Testament is backed up by extant, original documents. You could probably, legitimately make that argument for the Old Testament, but we have some very interesting old manuscripts that just about that.

Whats is in the New Testament that you don't place faith in?
Rather than tackle that question, which is a huge one, I will refer you to the writings of Bart D. Ehrman, you might read one of his shorter books like "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why." I do not agree with everything that Bart opines on, but he makes some very good points on the mess that the New Testament is. The Prophet Joseph Smith has done a partial translation, I would put good money on those parts being very legitimate.

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Craig Johnson
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Location: Washington State.

Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by Craig Johnson »

Alexander wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:30 pm
Craig Johnson wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:06 pm
Alexander wrote: April 7th, 2021, 7:57 pm Webster's 1828 English Dictionary states,
HATE, verb transitive [Latin odi, for hodi.]
1. To dislike greatly; to have a great aversion to. It expresses less than abhor, detest, and abominate, unless pronounced with a peculiar emphasis.
2. In Scripture, it signifies to love less.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia states,
"Sometimes, however, the word "hate" is used hyperbolically in a relative sense to express only the strong preference of one to another. God loved Jacob, but hated Esau (Malachi 1:3 Romans 9:13); father and mother are to be hated in comparison with Christ (Luke 14:26; compare Matthew 10:37)."
The reason I cannot accept the argument you make, though it is rather erudite, is because I don't place a lot of faith in what has come down to us from the scribes and translators of the centuries, nothing like I place faith in the work done by the Prophet Joseph Smith, whom I consider a true prophet-translator. It would take a large book to explain my position with regard to that, and I have not even written that book yet. And as far as the bible goes, I place a lot more faith in what we have received in the Old Testament than the New. Nothing we have in the New Testament is backed up by extant, original documents. You could probably, legitimately make that argument for the Old Testament, but we have some very interesting old manuscripts that just about that.
Welp, I dunno what you want. I tried giving professional and even contemporaneous evidence for the word "hate" being used hyperbolically in this instance, but you call it erudite.

Most of the concerns or even anachronisms of the Book of Mormon come from a misunderstanding of the word used in the translation. The English given word's direct meaning is misapplied because it was the closest word given for something in the reformed Egyptian. Remember the Nephites are translating it from their spoken tongue into Reformed Egyptian, and then Joseph by the power of the Holy Spirit is attributing words best suited for that phrase in the plates.

People get too nitpicky of the words used in the Book of Mormon. Moroni was concerned that because of the weakness of the words (the symbols and the clear understanding of those words) the Gentiles would mock. Moroni even explains how the language of the Brother of Jared was more clear and expressive filled with more description, but the language of the Nephites was more limited.

Ether 12
23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them;
24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them.
25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words.
26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;
27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

As we seek the lord in humility and repentance, the weakness of the words will be made strong unto us, and we will understand.

Title page of the Book of Mormon
"and now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ."

Mormon 8
12 And whoso receiveth this record, and shall not condemn it because of the imperfections which are in it, the same shall know of greater things than these. Behold, I am Moroni; and were it possible, I would make all things known unto you.
...
17 And if there be faults they be the faults of a man. But behold, we know no fault; nevertheless God knoweth all things; therefore, he that condemneth, let him be aware lest he shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mormon 9
31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.
32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.
33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.
Agreed. Your point here is one reason I said I may be wrong. BTW erudite is not a bad thing.

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nightlight
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by nightlight »

Craig Johnson wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:39 pm
nightlight wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:08 pm
Craig Johnson wrote: April 7th, 2021, 8:06 pm
Alexander wrote: April 7th, 2021, 7:57 pm Webster's 1828 English Dictionary states,
HATE, verb transitive [Latin odi, for hodi.]
1. To dislike greatly; to have a great aversion to. It expresses less than abhor, detest, and abominate, unless pronounced with a peculiar emphasis.
2. In Scripture, it signifies to love less.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia states,
"Sometimes, however, the word "hate" is used hyperbolically in a relative sense to express only the strong preference of one to another. God loved Jacob, but hated Esau (Malachi 1:3 Romans 9:13); father and mother are to be hated in comparison with Christ (Luke 14:26; compare Matthew 10:37)."
The reason I cannot accept the argument you make, though it is rather erudite, is because I don't place a lot of faith in what has come down to us from the scribes and translators of the centuries, nothing like I place faith in the work done by the Prophet Joseph Smith, whom I consider a true prophet-translator. It would take a large book to explain my position with regard to that, and I have not even written that book yet. And as far as the bible goes, I place a lot more faith in what we have received in the Old Testament than the New. Nothing we have in the New Testament is backed up by extant, original documents. You could probably, legitimately make that argument for the Old Testament, but we have some very interesting old manuscripts that just about that.

Whats is in the New Testament that you don't place faith in?
Rather than tackle that question, which is a huge one, I will refer you to the writings of Bart D. Ehrman, you might read one of his shorter books like "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why." I do not agree with everything that Bart opines on, but he makes some very good points on the mess that the New Testament is. The Prophet Joseph Smith has done a partial translation, I would put good money on those parts being very legitimate.
Can you give a few examples of the mess of the New Testament?

Lynn
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by Lynn »

It has to do with perspective. As the Master explained, We are to Love even our enemies. However, that has to do with person, or soul beyond the flesh. But, if there is a deed or such that is in a sense- iniquity, we are not to Love that. Sometimes conveyment of that gets distorted in translations or interpretations.

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oneClimbs
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by oneClimbs »

Well, as with anything in scriptures, it’s important to look at patterns and see how consistent things are. If you find something that seems inconsistent, it’s probably wise to consider it in light of what else is said rather than isolate a single verse alone and build a whole worldview on it.

It could be assumed that it is an error, the title page and other places say as much. It could be a quirky translation. How many words and degrees and meanings are there for the word hate in Hebrew.

I also think Alexander was spot on.

MMbelieve
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by MMbelieve »

Craig Johnson wrote: April 7th, 2021, 7:49 pm Here goes.

I am reluctant to put this out for a few reasons 1) I don’t want anyone to think I have gone nuts, 2) I don’t want anyone to think I have lost faith in the religion of the church, 3) I don’t want a bunch troll comments that I will need to ignore, 4) I don’t want anyone to think that I sit around trying to pick the Book of Mormon apart and 5) I don’t want anyone to think that I totally do not accept treatments that have been done on the subject I will bring up.

I hope I can make this clear.

In the Book of Mormon I have found what I feel is an error. Maybe I am wrong. (Read Helaman 15:3,4). In verse 4 it is stated that (and I paraphrase) God hates the Lamanites.

I believe the sentence in verse 4 instead of reading “But behold my brethren, the Lamanites hath he hated because their deeds have been evil continually, and this because of the iniquity of the tradition of their fathers.” should read “But behold my brethren, the evil deeds of the Lamanites hath He hated because they have been evil continually, and this because of the iniquity of the tradition of their fathers.”

I am aware of other treatments of this verse such as:

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... -lamanites

But I, personally, while accepting the legitimacy of the above link argument, do not believe it fits this verse. The Prophet Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon is the “the most correct of any book on earth” but he did not say that the Book of Mormon has no errors. In fact Nephi warned that “if there are faults they are the mistakes of men.” And I believe that and I believe in the sacred nature of the Book of Mormon.

I invite your discussion.
My initial observation is that the statements about both the Nephites and Lamanites are not given directly from the Lord. I see this as nothing more than a mans perspective. This is what I could agree is “wrong” but I cannot agree that it is an error of the Book.

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nightlight
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by nightlight »

What reason would a LDS throw shade on the Book of Mormon and New Testament with one hand and prop up the Old Testament with the other hand...?

Think...

And do you think the OP would ever criticize anything that came out of a current general authority's mouth like he is doing with the NT and BoM?

Think...

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Luke
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by Luke »

You think the BoM is wrong because of the word “hate”?

My guy...

abijah`
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by abijah` »

God loves things, hates other things. He also blesses things, curses other things. Etc

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ransomme
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by ransomme »

It comes down to what you want to read into the text. If you want to interpret it as being malicious, pernicious even evil then you will.

It may, and IMO should be read as meaning distaste, displeasure as we know that:

* D&C 1:31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;
* 3 Nephi 10:6 O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart.
* John 3: 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
* BoM title page, that the BoM was "Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel;..." see 1 Nephi 15

.

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Craig Johnson
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by Craig Johnson »

nightlight wrote: April 7th, 2021, 10:12 pm What reason would a LDS throw shade on the Book of Mormon and New Testament with one hand and prop up the Old Testament with the other hand...?

Think...

And do you think the OP would ever criticize anything that came out of a current general authority's mouth like he is doing with the NT and BoM?

Think...
That's pretty malicious, I therefore will not be replying to you anymore. In fact, if I could delete this entire thing I would now.

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Craig Johnson
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by Craig Johnson »

oneClimbs wrote: April 7th, 2021, 9:46 pm Well, as with anything in scriptures, it’s important to look at patterns and see how consistent things are. If you find something that seems inconsistent, it’s probably wise to consider it in light of what else is said rather than isolate a single verse alone and build a whole worldview on it.

It could be assumed that it is an error, the title page and other places say as much. It could be a quirky translation. How many words and degrees and meanings are there for the word hate in Hebrew.

I also think Alexander was spot on.
So, some people, with big degrees, think that the word "hate" has other meanings than what we are ascribing to it as we read this. That is likely true, I have not studied that point very much. I have read the Book of Mormon 25 times and studied it on the fly way more than that, this is the first time this verse jumped up and bothered me. I thought, "could this be an actual error, maybe Oliver wrote it down incorrectly" you know, I don't know, but I suspect we have to accept that the word "hate" here, does not mean that the Lord hated the Lamanites in the way that we usually think. Or, if Oliver did write it down incorrectly, maybe what was said is that the Lord hated the evil deeds of the Lamanites which were done due to the bad traditions that were handed down to them. This is where I am coming from, all this malicious crap being thrown at me was expected, I was thinking about putting this on a closed part of the forum, but, I thought that would keep someone with a mature opinion from seeing it and being able to chime in. I ran this by (iWriteStuff) for that purpose, but decided to put it out anyway and see if I could learn anything, but so far, not really learning anything. My testimony of the Book of Mormon, as a book of scripture remains solid, IT is a huge reason why I joined the church, this is not an attack on it. But, when one questions even a word, you got to take the childish attacks, I can handle it, it did not take a genius to see, on this website especially, that things would get stupid. I am probably going to ask to have this entire post deleted.

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Luke
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by Luke »

Craig Johnson wrote: April 8th, 2021, 4:03 am
nightlight wrote: April 7th, 2021, 10:12 pm What reason would a LDS throw shade on the Book of Mormon and New Testament with one hand and prop up the Old Testament with the other hand...?

Think...

And do you think the OP would ever criticize anything that came out of a current general authority's mouth like he is doing with the NT and BoM?

Think...
That's pretty malicious
No it isn't

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John Tavner
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by John Tavner »

It's calling back to Hebrews 12:6. The Lord loves whom he chastens. The writer is just rying to convey the difference. Much of hte suffering hte Nephites had was because they were loved of the LOrd, or in other words had truth and God was calling them to Him as a people, because they had truth. The Lamanites from the beginning did not want truth and fled, they rejected the mercy of the LOrd.. so to differentiate between treatment of the Nephites and Lamanites the writer or translator used the word hate (whihc means love less). Psalms5: 5The boastful cannot stand in Your presence; You hate all workers of iniquity.

Hate in hebrew, if I recall correctly was never the same use as we have now. I bleieve we need to realize that often our modern views of things skew how we read the scriptures. God doesn't hate anyone as we view it. He is love and love never fails, but to describe the blessings people received and cursings, the word hate was used. God loved the word He gave His life so that it my be saved. God also told us to hate our family and even our own lives more than Him or we are not worthy to follow Him. It is about the eternal perspective (my Kingdom is not of this world). God is just saying Give Him your all and if anything takes precedence over Him, you are wrong.

In this case with the lamanites God "chastens" (Instructs) those whom He loves. He has not instructed the Lamanites there fore in the writers view or explanation, God "hates" the lamanites, but we also know that God treats all who repent and come unto Him the same, so He doesn't "hate" them. Basically the Nephites were a chosen section of the covenant, while the lamanites were not - you could consider them more like the gentiles of the time.

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Cruiserdude
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by Cruiserdude »

Craig Johnson wrote: April 8th, 2021, 4:21 am
oneClimbs wrote: April 7th, 2021, 9:46 pm Well, as with anything in scriptures, it’s important to look at patterns and see how consistent things are. If you find something that seems inconsistent, it’s probably wise to consider it in light of what else is said rather than isolate a single verse alone and build a whole worldview on it.

It could be assumed that it is an error, the title page and other places say as much. It could be a quirky translation. How many words and degrees and meanings are there for the word hate in Hebrew.

I also think Alexander was spot on.
So, some people, with big degrees, think that the word "hate" has other meanings than what we are ascribing to it as we read this. That is likely true, I have not studied that point very much. I have read the Book of Mormon 25 times and studied it on the fly way more than that, this is the first time this verse jumped up and bothered me. I thought, "could this be an actual error, maybe Oliver wrote it down incorrectly" you know, I don't know, but I suspect we have to accept that the word "hate" here, does not mean that the Lord hated the Lamanites in the way that we usually think. Or, if Oliver did write it down incorrectly, maybe what was said is that the Lord hated the evil deeds of the Lamanites which were done due to the bad traditions that were handed down to them. This is where I am coming from, all this malicious crap being thrown at me was expected, I was thinking about putting this on a closed part of the forum, but, I thought that would keep someone with a mature opinion from seeing it and being able to chime in. I ran this by (iWriteStuff) for that purpose, but decided to put it out anyway and see if I could learn anything, but so far, not really learning anything. My testimony of the Book of Mormon, as a book of scripture remains solid, IT is a huge reason why I joined the church, this is not an attack on it. But, when one questions even a word, you got to take the childish attacks, I can handle it, it did not take a genius to see, on this website especially, that things would get stupid. I am probably going to ask to have this entire post deleted.
You're good hermano. I can see you had no ill intent 😊

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nightlight
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by nightlight »

Craig Johnson wrote: April 8th, 2021, 4:03 am
nightlight wrote: April 7th, 2021, 10:12 pm What reason would a LDS throw shade on the Book of Mormon and New Testament with one hand and prop up the Old Testament with the other hand...?

Think...

And do you think the OP would ever criticize anything that came out of a current general authority's mouth like he is doing with the NT and BoM?

Think...
That's pretty malicious, I therefore will not be replying to you anymore. In fact, if I could delete this entire thing I would now.
Its not. I don't think you're being malicious, but things you say don't add up to me... I believe you are misguided and decived. I believe you to be a sincere guy though. But I truly just think you're not seeing things as they are because of false traditions.
I believe the things you claim (subconsciously) will draw people closer to the arm of flesh and away from the spirit.

My guy. If you look at the New Testament with that attitude, and you look at the general authorities as "super spiritually advanced people that you're not even close to"........ this is strange, and doesn't taste right

You should thank God for the New Testament...it's a gift. I would check myself
Last edited by nightlight on April 8th, 2021, 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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oneClimbs
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by oneClimbs »

Craig Johnson wrote: April 8th, 2021, 4:21 am
oneClimbs wrote: April 7th, 2021, 9:46 pm Well, as with anything in scriptures, it’s important to look at patterns and see how consistent things are. If you find something that seems inconsistent, it’s probably wise to consider it in light of what else is said rather than isolate a single verse alone and build a whole worldview on it.

It could be assumed that it is an error, the title page and other places say as much. It could be a quirky translation. How many words and degrees and meanings are there for the word hate in Hebrew.

I also think Alexander was spot on.
So, some people, with big degrees, think that the word "hate" has other meanings than what we are ascribing to it as we read this. That is likely true, I have not studied that point very much. I have read the Book of Mormon 25 times and studied it on the fly way more than that, this is the first time this verse jumped up and bothered me. I thought, "could this be an actual error, maybe Oliver wrote it down incorrectly" you know, I don't know, but I suspect we have to accept that the word "hate" here, does not mean that the Lord hated the Lamanites in the way that we usually think. Or, if Oliver did write it down incorrectly, maybe what was said is that the Lord hated the evil deeds of the Lamanites which were done due to the bad traditions that were handed down to them. This is where I am coming from, all this malicious crap being thrown at me was expected, I was thinking about putting this on a closed part of the forum, but, I thought that would keep someone with a mature opinion from seeing it and being able to chime in. I ran this by (iWriteStuff) for that purpose, but decided to put it out anyway and see if I could learn anything, but so far, not really learning anything. My testimony of the Book of Mormon, as a book of scripture remains solid, IT is a huge reason why I joined the church, this is not an attack on it. But, when one questions even a word, you got to take the childish attacks, I can handle it, it did not take a genius to see, on this website especially, that things would get stupid. I am probably going to ask to have this entire post deleted.
No, I think that the post itself is fine. There's no problem in asking questions but you need to be ready for all kinds of responses. There are people on this forum from all walks of life and background so you're going to get a spectrum of reactions. There are pros and cons to this. The cons are that you may get a lot of ignorant responses, the pros are that your arguments can be strengthened by sussing them out with a wide diversity of minds.

I just threw some thoughts out, and I agree that what the scriptures we have say the Lord felt by applying the word "hate" in this case doesn't fit with what we know of the Lord and the other patterns we have in scripture. This is why I said that we must consider verses like this within the context of the scriptures as a whole to better understand them. This is why prooftexting is so dangerous. Someone isolates one verse like Jacob 2:30, or the 2 or 3 "trinitarian" verses in the Bible and then ignore everything else.

I'm not saying that YOU are doing that, no, not at all, just that it is what CAN happen. I think you are on point with seeing the verse through the lens that the Lord hated the deeds of the Lamanites because we know he had great love for them since he preserved them and the Book of Mormon was even written TO them. I'm sure he hated the fact that there were Lamanites, that there was a faction of his lost children kept in ignorance through their traditions.

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Contemplator
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by Contemplator »

Craig Johnson wrote: April 7th, 2021, 7:49 pm Here goes.

...

But I, personally, while accepting the legitimacy of the above link argument, do not believe it fits this verse. The Prophet Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon is the “the most correct of any book on earth” but he did not say that the Book of Mormon has no errors. In fact Nephi warned that “if there are faults they are the mistakes of men.” And I believe that and I believe in the sacred nature of the Book of Mormon.

I invite your discussion.
Here is another possible approach to your question. The more complete version of the quote that I have highlighted from the OP is:
“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.
Notice that this quote includes the measure of "most correct" that Joseph was communicating. It is not technically flawless nor perfectly translated. It was written in the words and weakness of its authors and translator. It is "most correct" in the sense that if the precepts in the book are understood and lived, it will bring us closer to God than any other book then extant.

Notice what the Lord says to Moroni in response to Moroni's concerns about his ability to write his message. The Lord say in Ether 12:
26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;
27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
These verses are about us, the readers of Moroni's words. Our reception of the words will determine whether we will be blessed by them. If we mock, we will mourn. If we are meek, we shall receive grace. When we recognize our own weakness as readers, the Lord will make weak things strong. Recall that this is in response to Moroni's lament that his weakness prevented him from writing in a powerful way. The words, written in weakness, become strong when we, as readers, are meek and are seeking the precepts that will bring us closer to God.

Prophets write under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The words, though, are not the powerful thing. The words are just an invitation to bring us to the same Spirit and understanding that inspired the prophet-author to write. The words are scripture when we receive them through the Holy Ghost.

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nightlight
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by nightlight »

“Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.”

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Robin Hood
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Re: Book of Mormon Error?

Post by Robin Hood »

In my view the OP is a big nothing burger.

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