5 hours with Enzio Buche
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
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- Pazooka
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
I don’t know...he was kind of partial to a youth organization in brown shirts.larsenb wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 5:51 pmSpeaking of Hitler, where IK claimed Pres. Monson was deliberately trying to show Enzio that he was reading Mein Kampf during a plane ride and later "was all too eager to show Enzio his Nazi memorabilia once they had some privacy?", is incredibly unbelievable.farmerchick wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 5:25 pm . . . . . .Any organization that has a large percentage of members in a specific place would have heavy influence over legal and political systems, but that doesn't mean the individual members are above the law as you so aptly pointed out.......the natural law of reaping what you sow will at some point boomerang back at you....call it karma...call it whatever you want.....Enzio who had lived through Hitler shouldn't have been afraid to call out the pedophilia within the leadership....he had survived Hitler.....you say you are just trying to warn others.....i'll take you at your word...next time think your OP out a little better....quite a few holes in your story.....I mean it could be true....Enzio could have told you all this stuff and was just a coward and a fraud, someone who was not interested in truth or justice if it involved his own sacrifice.... unable and afraid, going along to get along......cowering at the thought of losing a church pension while he knew little children were being abused.....not a pretty picture....just doesn't seem like someone who would have lived through the hitler movement and the Holocaust....unless he was also a denier of that as well as of Christ....oh well...that's your story.......and your warning....
Edit to add: I find no virtue in your story or warning...it's like salt that's lost it's savor....good for nothing....no value whatsoever....
Being pro Nazi has to be one of the major tabus among members of the church. And this fits nothing I've ever heard or read about Pres. Monson doing or saying. It DOES, however, fit w/an agenda of painting him as abjectly evil as possible, and goes hand-in-glove w/the pedophile accusations.
- TheDuke
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
There was a post a few pages back about thinking about the effects of writing the post. I.e. to cause, harm, do good, share information, etc... It really caught me as I have been thinking on this very subject today.
I'm pretty strong, so I can read anybody's stuff and not worry me. Reading things doesn't hurt me. Often I even find myself learning from posts I argue against. Sometimes it enlarges me, sometimes, it is a waste of time.
But writing a post is more complex.. I truly don't wish to hurt anyone. I either write a post to get an exchange and learn more or to share a view that hopefully will help someone else see things that I've learned from. However, on several occasions I have either written poorly and/or been misinterpreted (not claiming any descent PC or writing skills in the first place), or someone wants to pick a fight. I begin feeling bad about what I wrote, not that I feel I'm wrong, just maybe I hurt someone. Often it is one or at most two responders that want to fight. I think about the lurkers (mostly I'm a lurker) and wonder if I'm helping or hurting them? I did get a memo from the Lord to share what I believe, so I'll keep trying. But sorry in advance if I offend someone who isn't as bullet proof as I am.
I'm pretty strong, so I can read anybody's stuff and not worry me. Reading things doesn't hurt me. Often I even find myself learning from posts I argue against. Sometimes it enlarges me, sometimes, it is a waste of time.
But writing a post is more complex.. I truly don't wish to hurt anyone. I either write a post to get an exchange and learn more or to share a view that hopefully will help someone else see things that I've learned from. However, on several occasions I have either written poorly and/or been misinterpreted (not claiming any descent PC or writing skills in the first place), or someone wants to pick a fight. I begin feeling bad about what I wrote, not that I feel I'm wrong, just maybe I hurt someone. Often it is one or at most two responders that want to fight. I think about the lurkers (mostly I'm a lurker) and wonder if I'm helping or hurting them? I did get a memo from the Lord to share what I believe, so I'll keep trying. But sorry in advance if I offend someone who isn't as bullet proof as I am.
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
I understand what you are saying. It’s like a cool drink of water on a hot day to say, “whew, I’m glad it wasn’t me.”
And I don’t disagree with you, but many who have gone through this have also been blessed to see the face of the Lord and their crown in heaven in great!
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
So was I . . . weren't you?? There were brown shirts and then their were brown shirts.Pazooka wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 6:06 pmI don’t know...he was kind of partial to a youth organization in brown shirts.larsenb wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 5:51 pmSpeaking of Hitler, where IK claimed Pres. Monson was deliberately trying to show Enzio that he was reading Mein Kampf during a plane ride and later "was all too eager to show Enzio his Nazi memorabilia once they had some privacy?", is incredibly unbelievable.farmerchick wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 5:25 pm . . . . . .Any organization that has a large percentage of members in a specific place would have heavy influence over legal and political systems, but that doesn't mean the individual members are above the law as you so aptly pointed out.......the natural law of reaping what you sow will at some point boomerang back at you....call it karma...call it whatever you want.....Enzio who had lived through Hitler shouldn't have been afraid to call out the pedophilia within the leadership....he had survived Hitler.....you say you are just trying to warn others.....i'll take you at your word...next time think your OP out a little better....quite a few holes in your story.....I mean it could be true....Enzio could have told you all this stuff and was just a coward and a fraud, someone who was not interested in truth or justice if it involved his own sacrifice.... unable and afraid, going along to get along......cowering at the thought of losing a church pension while he knew little children were being abused.....not a pretty picture....just doesn't seem like someone who would have lived through the hitler movement and the Holocaust....unless he was also a denier of that as well as of Christ....oh well...that's your story.......and your warning....
Edit to add: I find no virtue in your story or warning...it's like salt that's lost it's savor....good for nothing....no value whatsoever....
Being pro Nazi has to be one of the major tabus among members of the church. And this fits nothing I've ever heard or read about Pres. Monson doing or saying. It DOES, however, fit w/an agenda of painting him as abjectly evil as possible, and goes hand-in-glove w/the pedophile accusations.
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
Here is my last attempt at introducing some simple logic.
Compare the families of the GAs and the House of Saud. The Saudis are famous for their hypocrisy, appearing observant in public, then jetting off to Vegas to spend time in debauchery. The older generations hide it just a little, but the younger ones don't do much to keep up appearances. The behavior of the younger generation is often a reflection of the teachers of the older one.
In contrast, the families of the GAs are generally observant and have every appearance of being TBMs. That isn't to say that they're perfect or anything, the Huntsmans are a big disappointment, but the disappointments usually break completely from the church. They don't claim to believe it while engaging in their immortality. They usually completely separate themselves from the church.
It is very telling that even the kids of GAs who fall away, who have a strong incentive to destroy the church, don't come out and say, "Oh yeah, my dad totally didn't believe and was just in it for the money." It just isn't human nature for people to keep up the deception with their family, even working hard to keep their children deceived.
Compare the families of the GAs and the House of Saud. The Saudis are famous for their hypocrisy, appearing observant in public, then jetting off to Vegas to spend time in debauchery. The older generations hide it just a little, but the younger ones don't do much to keep up appearances. The behavior of the younger generation is often a reflection of the teachers of the older one.
In contrast, the families of the GAs are generally observant and have every appearance of being TBMs. That isn't to say that they're perfect or anything, the Huntsmans are a big disappointment, but the disappointments usually break completely from the church. They don't claim to believe it while engaging in their immortality. They usually completely separate themselves from the church.
It is very telling that even the kids of GAs who fall away, who have a strong incentive to destroy the church, don't come out and say, "Oh yeah, my dad totally didn't believe and was just in it for the money." It just isn't human nature for people to keep up the deception with their family, even working hard to keep their children deceived.
- Pazooka
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
Well, I’m female - so, no brown shirt for me. But, looking back on the Church’s involvement in the BSA it’s interesting that Monson wouldn’t sever the tie. Just another data point. Who knows if the Church under RMN would have either if the BSA hadn’t faced overwhelming litigation and bankruptcy.larsenb wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 8:25 pmSo was I . . . weren't you?? There were brown shirts and then their were brown shirts.Pazooka wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 6:06 pmI don’t know...he was kind of partial to a youth organization in brown shirts.larsenb wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 5:51 pmSpeaking of Hitler, where IK claimed Pres. Monson was deliberately trying to show Enzio that he was reading Mein Kampf during a plane ride and later "was all too eager to show Enzio his Nazi memorabilia once they had some privacy?", is incredibly unbelievable.farmerchick wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 5:25 pm . . . . . .Any organization that has a large percentage of members in a specific place would have heavy influence over legal and political systems, but that doesn't mean the individual members are above the law as you so aptly pointed out.......the natural law of reaping what you sow will at some point boomerang back at you....call it karma...call it whatever you want.....Enzio who had lived through Hitler shouldn't have been afraid to call out the pedophilia within the leadership....he had survived Hitler.....you say you are just trying to warn others.....i'll take you at your word...next time think your OP out a little better....quite a few holes in your story.....I mean it could be true....Enzio could have told you all this stuff and was just a coward and a fraud, someone who was not interested in truth or justice if it involved his own sacrifice.... unable and afraid, going along to get along......cowering at the thought of losing a church pension while he knew little children were being abused.....not a pretty picture....just doesn't seem like someone who would have lived through the hitler movement and the Holocaust....unless he was also a denier of that as well as of Christ....oh well...that's your story.......and your warning....
Edit to add: I find no virtue in your story or warning...it's like salt that's lost it's savor....good for nothing....no value whatsoever....
Being pro Nazi has to be one of the major tabus among members of the church. And this fits nothing I've ever heard or read about Pres. Monson doing or saying. It DOES, however, fit w/an agenda of painting him as abjectly evil as possible, and goes hand-in-glove w/the pedophile accusations.
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
"After hearing all of the horrifying details of Monson and Hinkley, my friend remarked that he believed Nelson and Oaks were much darker. Enzio replied, “I agree”. By that time we had already hit the 5 hour mark and I was far too worn out to think about how anyone could be darker then the two he just described. [/quote]
Did you ever find out why your friend thought so?
It involves something that happened between Nelson and Ezra Taft Benson. Unfortunately, I don’t have any evidence to substantiate those claims either so I’ll refrain from going into in an effort to avoid any further hearsay. Hope you understand!
"
ummmmm, peradventure that might be like he became hands to operate lobotomy on the president benson under the direction of presidents hinckley&monson ..?!
that'd be scary indeed, those sra stuff in rocky mountain area must be eradicated asap, hopes underground war is true ...
after all f. enzio should be remembered a great man who left these info to palmer et al ...
" Russell was born in Salt Lake City 9 September 1924 to Marion C. and Edna Anderson Nelson. As a boy he had many interests. At ten, he ran errands for his father’s advertising company. Later he worked part-time in a bank, the post office, and a photo studio. Noted for his perfect pitch, he sang in choirs in high school and college, performed in musicals, and sang in prize-winning quartets. He played the piano and was on the debate team.
Although Russell was successful in other activities, his football coach usually kept him on the bench during games. “I think one of the reasons was that I always felt a little bit defensive about my hands,” he remembers. “I was afraid somebody might step on them with their cleated shoes.” Those hands operated on the coach nearly forty years later.
"
http://www.gapages.com/nelsorm1.htm
lobotomy incision
https://search.yahoo.co.jp/image/search ... n&ei=UTF-8
as to brighams weakness ... love of wealth/money
""Benjamin Franklin Johnson“Of Brigham Young as President of the Church, I will again bear this as a faithful testimony that I do know and bear record that upon the head of Brigham Young as chief, with the Apostleship in full, was by the voice of the Prophet Joseph in my hearing, laid the full responsibility of bearing of[f] the kingdom of God to all the world . . . . [When Brigham Young first met Joseph Smith and spoke in tongues in the Adamic languaue the Prophet] at that time, made the prediction upon the head of Brigham Young that ‘at some period he would become the leader of the Church, and that there would be one danger to beset him, and that would be his love of wealth.’ These things were told to me by [Lyman R.] Sherman [i.e., Johnson’s brother-in-law] at near the time of their occurrence” (E. Dale LeBaron, Benjamin Franklin Johnson: Friend to the Prophets [Provo, Utah: Grandin Book Co., 1997], 232, 233).
""
Did you ever find out why your friend thought so?
It involves something that happened between Nelson and Ezra Taft Benson. Unfortunately, I don’t have any evidence to substantiate those claims either so I’ll refrain from going into in an effort to avoid any further hearsay. Hope you understand!
"
ummmmm, peradventure that might be like he became hands to operate lobotomy on the president benson under the direction of presidents hinckley&monson ..?!
that'd be scary indeed, those sra stuff in rocky mountain area must be eradicated asap, hopes underground war is true ...
after all f. enzio should be remembered a great man who left these info to palmer et al ...
" Russell was born in Salt Lake City 9 September 1924 to Marion C. and Edna Anderson Nelson. As a boy he had many interests. At ten, he ran errands for his father’s advertising company. Later he worked part-time in a bank, the post office, and a photo studio. Noted for his perfect pitch, he sang in choirs in high school and college, performed in musicals, and sang in prize-winning quartets. He played the piano and was on the debate team.
Although Russell was successful in other activities, his football coach usually kept him on the bench during games. “I think one of the reasons was that I always felt a little bit defensive about my hands,” he remembers. “I was afraid somebody might step on them with their cleated shoes.” Those hands operated on the coach nearly forty years later.
"
http://www.gapages.com/nelsorm1.htm
lobotomy incision
https://search.yahoo.co.jp/image/search ... n&ei=UTF-8
as to brighams weakness ... love of wealth/money
""Benjamin Franklin Johnson“Of Brigham Young as President of the Church, I will again bear this as a faithful testimony that I do know and bear record that upon the head of Brigham Young as chief, with the Apostleship in full, was by the voice of the Prophet Joseph in my hearing, laid the full responsibility of bearing of[f] the kingdom of God to all the world . . . . [When Brigham Young first met Joseph Smith and spoke in tongues in the Adamic languaue the Prophet] at that time, made the prediction upon the head of Brigham Young that ‘at some period he would become the leader of the Church, and that there would be one danger to beset him, and that would be his love of wealth.’ These things were told to me by [Lyman R.] Sherman [i.e., Johnson’s brother-in-law] at near the time of their occurrence” (E. Dale LeBaron, Benjamin Franklin Johnson: Friend to the Prophets [Provo, Utah: Grandin Book Co., 1997], 232, 233).
""
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
Yes, I've long suspected that the Huntsmans were vampires. It's past time someone called them out.franklinbluth wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 9:11 pm That isn't to say that they're perfect or anything, the Huntsmans are a big disappointment, but the disappointments usually break completely from the church. They don't claim to believe it while engaging in their immortality.
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
I was a cub scout leader, primary president, and webolos leader....soooo am I also guilty by association of the abuse that happened in the scouting program? What do you mean just another data point? There is nothing worse than tarnishing someones reputation with vile accusations such as this when they can't respond......any fair minded honest person would think so.....Pazooka wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 9:15 pmWell, I’m female - so, no brown shirt for me. But, looking back on the Church’s involvement in the BSA it’s interesting that Monson wouldn’t sever the tie. Just another data point. Who knows if the Church under RMN would have either if the BSA hadn’t faced overwhelming litigation and bankruptcy.larsenb wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 8:25 pmSo was I . . . weren't you?? There were brown shirts and then their were brown shirts.Pazooka wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 6:06 pmI don’t know...he was kind of partial to a youth organization in brown shirts.larsenb wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 5:51 pm
Speaking of Hitler, where IK claimed Pres. Monson was deliberately trying to show Enzio that he was reading Mein Kampf during a plane ride and later "was all too eager to show Enzio his Nazi memorabilia once they had some privacy?", is incredibly unbelievable.
Being pro Nazi has to be one of the major tabus among members of the church. And this fits nothing I've ever heard or read about Pres. Monson doing or saying. It DOES, however, fit w/an agenda of painting him as abjectly evil as possible, and goes hand-in-glove w/the pedophile accusations.
- BringerOfJoy
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
I imagine we could argue that until we were both blue in the face, and 15 years ago, I would have been right there with you and I regret that. I wouldn't dare do so now. But several things happened in the interim. About the time the Nauvoo temple was completed, my husband and I went out there to see it. Since I had non-LDS ancestors living in Hancock County from about 1834 to 1842, I was planning to do some family history while I was out there--especially on the GG Grandmother who died when my G Grandfather was born, and it's believed she died in the La Harpe area north of Carthage. We also had a non-LDS friend whose family lived in the county for a number of generations, so I told him I would look for his family since I was going to be visiting practically every cemetery in the county. What turned out to be interesting was that his family was shirt-tailed relatives to Joseph Smith's sister's family who always remained there in the area and it was interesting to find that they always swore that Joseph DIDN'T practice polygamy. Polygamy was the territory of the twelve, and John C. Bennett, but that is a story in itself. Turned out the rest of the family believed the same thing, and was clear that Joseph spoke out against it every chance he got. William was clear about who was really involved, and how it led to Joseph's death when he attempted to bail them out by destroying the Expositor at their request. And why Richards and Taylor were there in the Carthage jail with Joseph.Matthias wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 4:44 pmHow many times does Brigham have to get thrown under the bus for preaching and practicing what he was taught by Joseph Smith?BringerOfJoy wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 3:03 pm it is the nature of leadership within institutions who operate in a degree of secrecy to eventually--or not so eventually--in Brigham's case to introduce sexual improprieties of one kind or another.
If people have a problem with polygamy, then throw Joseph Smith under the bus.
Good grief.
And there are some interesting books on the subject from the RLDS perspective, from the Price's, the "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" series. And Denver Snuffer began writing on the subject circa 2011 to 2013. I saw this book for the first time today: https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Chamber-S ... oks&sr=1-1 from the Utah side of the fence. I haven't read it so I don't have an opinion, either yay or nay on it.
In the interim there were the DNA test results from the suspected descendants of Joseph, none of whom were (other than the descendants of Emma, of course). Even I really thought that the Josephine Lyons just HAD to be his daughter, because her mother told her on her death bed that she was. And since her mother was sealed to Joseph, I guess that was the connection she meant. https://www.deseret.com/2016/6/13/20590 ... eaker-says. Surprise, surprise!
More recently, we have had the opportunity--thanks to the Joseph Smith Papers--to see changes that were made in the historical record later in the Utah period to make it appear as if Joseph had been the instigator. That evidence has to be making even the researchers on that project go, "hmm." But the church's truth claims rest on Brigham, so it's a really hard hurdle to get over, understandably.
Rob Fotheringham has done a stellar job pulling some of the info together in video format: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5heXE5xS5w
Anyway, when you look at the evidence you have to believe that Joseph was either the biggest fraud and liar around, or he was telling the truth. I vote for the latter. The Book of Mormon wasn't written by a fraud, and he wouldn't have risked going to his death and taking Hyrum with him to meet with his God after living a life of lies. The Lord told Joseph:
"1 The ends of the earth shall inquire after thy aname, and fools shall have thee in derision, and hell shall rage against thee;
2 While the pure in heart, and the wise, and the noble, and the virtuous, shall seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under thy hand.
3 And thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors."
Personally, I opt not to be a traitor, but you get to choose for yourself.
Last edited by BringerOfJoy on March 28th, 2021, 10:07 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
I don't see it as a "data point". BSA has been sacrosanct and a very good organization for decades. Monson, being of the older generation having good experience w/the BSA, would naturally be very reluctant to severe the ties and deprive youth of what used to be its benefits.Pazooka wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 9:15 pmWell, I’m female - so, no brown shirt for me. But, looking back on the Church’s involvement in the BSA it’s interesting that Monson wouldn’t sever the tie. Just another data point. Who knows if the Church under RMN would have either if the BSA hadn’t faced overwhelming litigation and bankruptcy.larsenb wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 8:25 pmSo was I . . . weren't you?? There were brown shirts and then their were brown shirts.Pazooka wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 6:06 pmI don’t know...he was kind of partial to a youth organization in brown shirts.larsenb wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 5:51 pm
Speaking of Hitler, where IK claimed Pres. Monson was deliberately trying to show Enzio that he was reading Mein Kampf during a plane ride and later "was all too eager to show Enzio his Nazi memorabilia once they had some privacy?", is incredibly unbelievable.
Being pro Nazi has to be one of the major tabus among members of the church. And this fits nothing I've ever heard or read about Pres. Monson doing or saying. It DOES, however, fit w/an agenda of painting him as abjectly evil as possible, and goes hand-in-glove w/the pedophile accusations.
The BSA signed its death warrant when it decided to officially stop discriminating against homosexual leaders, and surprisingly at the same time the Catholic Church was going through hell dealing w/homosexual priests accused of abusing alter boys, etc.
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
That's just the common narrative "the BSA went off the rails, so we bailed". I wish it were so, but that implies we have a backbone. It doesn't add up.
I just don't buy it as being the real reason why we left. Why? Because we're only a step or two behind them in our race to be woke.
The real reasons we bailed:
- The membership didn't like BSA anymore, especially the younger generations. And apparently we must appease them at all costs.
- Our highest priority is being a prestigious Global church, and BSA is neither global nor prestigious.
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
I'm very familiar with the RLDS/Snufferite denial of Joseph's polygamy. Problem is that the historical record just doesn't agree with their claims. They have to ignore a large body of evidence which in my opinion completely disproves their position.BringerOfJoy wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 9:51 pmI imagine we could argue that until we were both blue in the face, and 15 years ago, I would have been right there with you and I regret that. I wouldn't dare do so now. But several things happened in the interim. About the time the Nauvoo temple was completed, my husband and I went out there to see it. Since I had non-LDS ancestors living in Hancock County from about 1834 to 1842, I was planning to do some family history while I was out there--especially on the GG Grandmother who died when my G Grandfather was born, and it's believed she died in the La Harpe area north of Carthage. We also had a non-LDS friend whose family lived in the county for a number of generations, so I told him I would look for his family since I was going to be visiting practically every cemetery in the county. What turned out to be interesting was that his family was shirt-tailed relatives to Joseph Smith's sister's family who always remained there in the area and it was interesting to find that they always swore that Joseph DIDN'T practice polygamy. Polygamy was the territory of the twelve, and John C. Bennett, but that is a story in itself. Turned out the rest of the family believed the same thing, and was clear that Joseph spoke out against it every chance he got. William was clear about who was really involved, and how it led to Joseph's death when he attempted to bail them out by destroying the Expositor at their request. And why Richards and Taylor were there in the Carthage jail with Joseph.Matthias wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 4:44 pmHow many times does Brigham have to get thrown under the bus for preaching and practicing what he was taught by Joseph Smith?BringerOfJoy wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 3:03 pm it is the nature of leadership within institutions who operate in a degree of secrecy to eventually--or not so eventually--in Brigham's case to introduce sexual improprieties of one kind or another.
If people have a problem with polygamy, then throw Joseph Smith under the bus.
Good grief.
And there are some interesting books on the subject from the RLDS perspective, from the Price's, the "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" series. And Denver Snuffer began writing on the subject circa 2011 to 2013. I saw this book for the first time today: https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Chamber-S ... oks&sr=1-1 from the Utah side of the fence. I haven't read it so I don't have an opinion, either yay or nay on it.
In the interim there were the DNA test results from the suspected descendants of Joseph, none of whom were (other than the descendants of Emma, of course). Even I really thought that the Josephine Lyons just HAD to be his daughter, because her mother told her on her death bed that she was. And since her mother was sealed to Joseph, I guess that was the connection she meant. https://www.deseret.com/2016/6/13/20590 ... eaker-says. Surprise, surprise!
More recently, we have had the opportunity--thanks to the Joseph Smith Papers--to see changes that were made in the historical record later in the Utah period to make it appear as if Joseph had been the instigator. That evidence has to be making even the researchers on that project go, "hmm." But the church's truth claims rest on Brigham, so it's a really hard hurdle to get over, understandably.
Rob Fotheringham has done a stellar job pulling some of the info together in video format: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5heXE5xS5w
Anyway, when you look at the evidence you have to believe that Joseph was either the biggest fraud and liar around, or he was telling the truth. I vote for the latter. The Book of Mormon wasn't written by a fraud, and he wouldn't have risked going to his death and taking Hyrum with him to meet with his God after living a life of lies. The Lord told Joseph:
"1 The ends of the earth shall inquire after thy aname, and fools shall have thee in derision, and hell shall rage against thee;
2 While the pure in heart, and the wise, and the noble, and the virtuous, shall seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under thy hand.
3 And thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors."
Personally, I opt not to be a traitor, but you get to choose for yourself.
In they end their denial of Joseph's polygamy basically comes down to the fact that they simply don't want to believe he did it. And that is their right, but in my opinion that belief is not grounded in reality.
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
Check out some other forums like “StayLDS” or “New Order Mormon” & you’ll realize it’s more common than you think.franklinbluth wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 9:11 pm...It just isn't human nature for people to keep up the deception with their family, even working hard to keep their children deceived.
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
Could be. Maybe I should rephrase what I said. For me, BSA went off the rails when they decided to "stop discriminating against homosexual leaders". I was raising young kids during this time, and this seemed to be a definite start of BSA losing its clout. Later, the coup de grace could very well have been what you've identified.mahalanobis wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 10:23 pmThat's just the common narrative "the BSA went off the rails, so we bailed". I wish it were so, but that implies we have a backbone. It doesn't add up.
I just don't buy it as being the real reason why we left. Why? Because we're only a step or two behind them in our race to be woke.
The real reasons we bailed:
- The membership didn't like BSA anymore, especially the younger generations. And apparently we must appease them at all costs.
- Our highest priority is being a prestigious Global church, and BSA is neither global nor prestigious.
The BSA used to be prestigious and it had been established in many countries of the world.
- Robin Hood
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 13110
- Location: England
Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
IK's overplayed his hand. He's full of baloney.farmerchick wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 5:59 pmSeriously.......first you say the church owns the state...then you admit some got caught.....then you say this^^^^^.... You obviously haven't thought out your argument....no one ultimately gets away with anything.....they may evade punishment here if they weren't guilty or there wasn't credible evidence......how do you know everyone who was accused was guilty? You've got all the facts about every case??? Come on man.....this is crazy talk......stick to what you think you know.......go get yourself a nice iced coffee and think over your argument...it's weak.....IcedKoffee wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 5:29 pmI love how you focus on the few bishops who got caught and prosecuted which had a lot to do with the National attention their cases received at across state lines. Versus the SEVERAL who got away do to the churches protection and interference.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 5:18 pmSo you managed to contradict yourself within 3 short sentences.IcedKoffee wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 4:18 pm
Actually we did. Unfortunately the Hundred billion dollar corporation’s team’s of layers kept getting in the way. There were no Bishops lynched that day I promise. A few have been arrested though!
You can't get at the bishops because of the lawyers... but they've been arrested. Make your mind up.
I'm sorry IK, but everytime you make a statement your credibility takes a dive.
He's less interested in truth than he is in embarrassing the church.
And making life difficult for the church is his motivation, not his false narrative about protecting children.
He came here out of the blue thinking he was going to cause a sensation. But he didn't think it through and didn't realise what he was getting into. We're an awkward bunch and he's clearly bitten off far more than he can chew.
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- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1812
Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
I would draw a few distinctions:Thinker wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 10:31 pmCheck out some other forums like “StayLDS” or “New Order Mormon” & you’ll realize it’s more common than you think.franklinbluth wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 9:11 pm...It just isn't human nature for people to keep up the deception with their family, even working hard to keep their children deceived.
1. As much as the New Order types would protest, there's a difference between thinking something is false and knowing it's false.
2. Most of the New Order types support their family in being active, but don't push them the way that GAs do with their families. The others will take their families to church, but don't make the kinds of sacrifices GAs push their families to make.
- Robin Hood
- Level 34 Illuminated
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
Not so. The large body of evidence you talk about is mostly back written revisionism and procured statements long after the event. We've been over this many times on this forum.Matthias wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 10:24 pmI'm very familiar with the RLDS/Snufferite denial of Joseph's polygamy. Problem is that the historical record just doesn't agree with their claims. They have to ignore a large body of evidence which in my opinion completely disproves their position.BringerOfJoy wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 9:51 pmI imagine we could argue that until we were both blue in the face, and 15 years ago, I would have been right there with you and I regret that. I wouldn't dare do so now. But several things happened in the interim. About the time the Nauvoo temple was completed, my husband and I went out there to see it. Since I had non-LDS ancestors living in Hancock County from about 1834 to 1842, I was planning to do some family history while I was out there--especially on the GG Grandmother who died when my G Grandfather was born, and it's believed she died in the La Harpe area north of Carthage. We also had a non-LDS friend whose family lived in the county for a number of generations, so I told him I would look for his family since I was going to be visiting practically every cemetery in the county. What turned out to be interesting was that his family was shirt-tailed relatives to Joseph Smith's sister's family who always remained there in the area and it was interesting to find that they always swore that Joseph DIDN'T practice polygamy. Polygamy was the territory of the twelve, and John C. Bennett, but that is a story in itself. Turned out the rest of the family believed the same thing, and was clear that Joseph spoke out against it every chance he got. William was clear about who was really involved, and how it led to Joseph's death when he attempted to bail them out by destroying the Expositor at their request. And why Richards and Taylor were there in the Carthage jail with Joseph.Matthias wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 4:44 pmHow many times does Brigham have to get thrown under the bus for preaching and practicing what he was taught by Joseph Smith?BringerOfJoy wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 3:03 pm it is the nature of leadership within institutions who operate in a degree of secrecy to eventually--or not so eventually--in Brigham's case to introduce sexual improprieties of one kind or another.
If people have a problem with polygamy, then throw Joseph Smith under the bus.
Good grief.
And there are some interesting books on the subject from the RLDS perspective, from the Price's, the "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" series. And Denver Snuffer began writing on the subject circa 2011 to 2013. I saw this book for the first time today: https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Chamber-S ... oks&sr=1-1 from the Utah side of the fence. I haven't read it so I don't have an opinion, either yay or nay on it.
In the interim there were the DNA test results from the suspected descendants of Joseph, none of whom were (other than the descendants of Emma, of course). Even I really thought that the Josephine Lyons just HAD to be his daughter, because her mother told her on her death bed that she was. And since her mother was sealed to Joseph, I guess that was the connection she meant. https://www.deseret.com/2016/6/13/20590 ... eaker-says. Surprise, surprise!
More recently, we have had the opportunity--thanks to the Joseph Smith Papers--to see changes that were made in the historical record later in the Utah period to make it appear as if Joseph had been the instigator. That evidence has to be making even the researchers on that project go, "hmm." But the church's truth claims rest on Brigham, so it's a really hard hurdle to get over, understandably.
Rob Fotheringham has done a stellar job pulling some of the info together in video format: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5heXE5xS5w
Anyway, when you look at the evidence you have to believe that Joseph was either the biggest fraud and liar around, or he was telling the truth. I vote for the latter. The Book of Mormon wasn't written by a fraud, and he wouldn't have risked going to his death and taking Hyrum with him to meet with his God after living a life of lies. The Lord told Joseph:
"1 The ends of the earth shall inquire after thy aname, and fools shall have thee in derision, and hell shall rage against thee;
2 While the pure in heart, and the wise, and the noble, and the virtuous, shall seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under thy hand.
3 And thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors."
Personally, I opt not to be a traitor, but you get to choose for yourself.
In they end their denial of Joseph's polygamy basically comes down to the fact that they simply don't want to believe he did it. And that is their right, but in my opinion that belief is not grounded in reality.
I was perfectly happy with the party line for most of my life. Didn't question it. Polygamy wasn't an issue for me because the evidence was clear.
I even used to jokingly introduce my spouse as my "first wife". Well, I thought it was funny.... Mrs Hood not so much!
But a few years ago it occured to me that to maintain this view I had to believe that Joseph was a liar. He went to such lengths to deceive on this issue, according to the church narrative, that it brought into question all of his claims. What else did he lie about?
Anyway, this began a thorough investigation into the subject and I realised that not only is there an alternative narrative, but that there is contemporary evidence to back it up.
Long story short, I changed my position. But it wasn't because I "simply don't want to believe it".
- Cruiserdude
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
I honestly couldn't think of a better group of truth seekers I'd rather go through 'end of times' with. This is a very unique and different group here. I haven't found a group that seeks out truth like this one anywhere else.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 29th, 2021, 12:48 amIK's overplayed his hand. He's full of baloney.farmerchick wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 5:59 pmSeriously.......first you say the church owns the state...then you admit some got caught.....then you say this^^^^^.... You obviously haven't thought out your argument....no one ultimately gets away with anything.....they may evade punishment here if they weren't guilty or there wasn't credible evidence......how do you know everyone who was accused was guilty? You've got all the facts about every case??? Come on man.....this is crazy talk......stick to what you think you know.......go get yourself a nice iced coffee and think over your argument...it's weak.....IcedKoffee wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 5:29 pmI love how you focus on the few bishops who got caught and prosecuted which had a lot to do with the National attention their cases received at across state lines. Versus the SEVERAL who got away do to the churches protection and interference.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 5:18 pm
So you managed to contradict yourself within 3 short sentences.
You can't get at the bishops because of the lawyers... but they've been arrested. Make your mind up.
I'm sorry IK, but everytime you make a statement your credibility takes a dive.
He's less interested in truth than he is in embarrassing the church.
And making life difficult for the church is his motivation, not his false narrative about protecting children.
He came here out of the blue thinking he was going to cause a sensation. But he didn't think it through and didn't realise what he was getting into. We're an awkward bunch and he's clearly bitten off far more than he can chew.
If one comes here with BS to push and spread, this group will sniff out 'desires of heart' real quick. And that is what matters.
I'm not making a statement about this thread per se, more the people here in this forum. It's an awesome place here
- Luke
- Level 34 Illuminated
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
Fools mock, but they shall mourn...
There's a reason that Benson said what he said to Stan Malstrom.
There's a reason that Benson said what he said to Stan Malstrom.
- Reluctant Watchman
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
This is a gross overgeneralization. There is much evidence of Joseph speaking out against polygamy. There is also evidence of Brigham changing the records in later years/decades.
- Reluctant Watchman
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
So I just finished reading the entire thread. Wow. There is a lot to digest. I remember reading Enzio's book "Yearning for the Living God", it was excellent. I liked the fact that even in this book he seemed to break some of the social norms for religious expression. It wouldn't surprise me that a person who rose up through the ranks and then came to find out something to be different than expected would have an adverse reaction to it. Now, losing your faith in Christ is hard for me to believe, but I can see where this is a possibility in some people. I know of others who have also become atheists and agnostics when learning of church abuse and lies. My own journey has brought me closer to Heaven, but less dependent upon the arm of flesh.
As I read through this thread I also get the sense that we really like to attack people's credibility and almost universally condemn something that contradicts the narrative we've been raised with. Something that has been gnawing at me for a long time is the secrecy and mysticism that exudes from the prophets and apostles. We know so little about their lives (post apostolic calling) and the decision-making processes that occur. So much is hush-hush and unknown to the general membership. Almost every word is sterilized before being shared. Even the first press conference given by the current first presidency is a little off. There is a video where RMN is giving a response to a reporter and Oaks literally mouths the same response as if he already knew what RMN was going to say. The whole thing was staged (fake?).
As with the OP, I tend to hold the narrative for more personal introspection before condemning it. The photo illustration that was modified for "strivetobe" of the Savior and the kids is so bizarre (sickening really).
The idea that the church holds great control over all aspects of state governance isn't hard for me to believe at all. When a man claims to speak for God, and tells you that he'll never lead you astray, and they hold your eternal salvation in their hands, then yeah, people will do a lot of things or be willing to change their opinion against their better judgment, because there is great truth mixed with lies. I recently had a family member tell me that if the prophet jumped off a cliff that they'd do it also. I even questioned, "What if the prophet did something against the commandments, that you knew was wrong, would you follow?" Again the same reply. We feel that God will bless us in our sins if we are following a prophet who may transgress.
As I read through this thread I also get the sense that we really like to attack people's credibility and almost universally condemn something that contradicts the narrative we've been raised with. Something that has been gnawing at me for a long time is the secrecy and mysticism that exudes from the prophets and apostles. We know so little about their lives (post apostolic calling) and the decision-making processes that occur. So much is hush-hush and unknown to the general membership. Almost every word is sterilized before being shared. Even the first press conference given by the current first presidency is a little off. There is a video where RMN is giving a response to a reporter and Oaks literally mouths the same response as if he already knew what RMN was going to say. The whole thing was staged (fake?).
As with the OP, I tend to hold the narrative for more personal introspection before condemning it. The photo illustration that was modified for "strivetobe" of the Savior and the kids is so bizarre (sickening really).
The idea that the church holds great control over all aspects of state governance isn't hard for me to believe at all. When a man claims to speak for God, and tells you that he'll never lead you astray, and they hold your eternal salvation in their hands, then yeah, people will do a lot of things or be willing to change their opinion against their better judgment, because there is great truth mixed with lies. I recently had a family member tell me that if the prophet jumped off a cliff that they'd do it also. I even questioned, "What if the prophet did something against the commandments, that you knew was wrong, would you follow?" Again the same reply. We feel that God will bless us in our sins if we are following a prophet who may transgress.
- Thinker
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
Good point. That likely includes anyone who’s livelihood ($$$$) depends on the church. The cognitive dissonance - when linked to food, clothing, shelter & luxurious - is too powerful to overcome. So even when someone knows significant facts of the church are not true & not even moral, they engage in mental gymnastics necessary to convince themselves & others involved, to believe only good.franklinbluth wrote: ↑March 29th, 2021, 1:09 amI would draw a few distinctions:Thinker wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 10:31 pmCheck out some other forums like “StayLDS” or “New Order Mormon” & you’ll realize it’s more common than you think.franklinbluth wrote: ↑March 28th, 2021, 9:11 pm...It just isn't human nature for people to keep up the deception with their family, even working hard to keep their children deceived.
1. As much as the New Order types would protest, there's a difference between thinking something is false and knowing it's false.
2. Most of the New Order types support their family in being active, but don't push them the way that GAs do with their families. The others will take their families to church, but don't make the kinds of sacrifices GAs push their families to make.
This reminds me that not only do we (doctrinally) not have all the truth to offer others of different faiths, other faiths have some basics we could use, like “right livelihood.”
- Luke
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche
I know of someone who said "if President Nelson told us to burn all the copies of the Book of Mormon, I would do it"Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 29th, 2021, 7:00 am I recently had a family member tell me that if the prophet jumped off a cliff that they'd do it also. I even questioned, "What if the prophet did something against the commandments, that you knew was wrong, would you follow?" Again the same reply. We feel that God will bless us in our sins if we are following a prophet who may transgress.