“Seek Ye This Jesus” and “The Glory of God is Intelligence”

[Grassland]

"The Lord said: “Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.” (John 14:27)

What is it? It is having total peace in total chaos because you trust God. Normal reactions are to lose your mind when a piece of your order is revealed to be wrong, because it brings the whole into question.
God’s love does not hide us from reality. It exposes us to reality. The truth is progressive. The more you know of it, the more you will see the things inside of you that are not ideal. If you embrace the opportunity to part with what doesn't work, you will find more and better. Everything that is replaced brings you closer to your ideal self: more secure in God; in possession of greater peace; more resilient to the unavoidable difficulties of reality. When you are consumed by love, you stand in the fire in peace. You can sleep on a boat in the midst of a terrible storm, as Jesus did. You can feel consummate joy while being stoned to death, as Stephen did. You can preach the gospel while being burned to death, as Abinadi did. Embrace truth. Run towards it. Get excited about it. A warrior runs toward the sound of battle, because he knows that is where he is meant to be. Why are you running away from the battle? The battle is why you were
born. It is why you are here. The battle calls you. Run to the sound of it. Don't try to escape from reality. Like the pressures of deep water to the pearl diver, it is a sign you are in the right place, doing what you are meant to do. Don't try to avoid pain. If you are reconciled to God, pain is the revelation of what you lack. Everyone wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die. Everyone wants to be a beast until it’s time to do what beasts do. Embrace the vision of who you really are when it matters the most, when you are neck-deep in pressure and the only way out is through. True happiness is found only in facing and embracing all the undesirable things in this world! You do not receive happiness in the world to come in the same way people try to find it here. It isn’t that the undesirable things are taken away, it is that you have transcended them."--The Glory of God Is Intelligence, p. 276-277.

I have found a lot of precious gems in this book. I've almost finished reading it for the third time.

I just stumbled on this, but... marc, you've inspired me to go attempt to read this book again (or at least listen to the free audio version). This book requires alot... Like, it requires one to be willing to give up everything to the Lord, and so I put it down months ago. I'm ready to try again. I have read "Seek Ye this Jesus", and that book is great.

I once heard this author speak and he bore testimony of having seen the Lord. I believed him, and it was one of the most powerful testimonies I've ever heard born of the Savior.

I wrote this earlier today and it is important to consider:

Rob Smith, who writes the blog Upward Thought as well as authoring many other books, has something ironic (and might I add disturbingly) in common with Denver Snuffer. Both preach that you can see Christ in this life (both testify they experienced Christ personally coming to them in the flesh years ago). Both dedicate their free time to writing many books about seeking this Jesus and the restoration and coming to Christ in the flesh. And yet, ironically, neither one of their spouses have experienced Christ in the flesh.

That's right, you heard correctly...

Both men speak superfluously, youtube abundantly, blog passionately, and preach wholeheartedly yet....they both can not teach their most beloved treasure how to receive the Lord in the flesh.

These two men who devote their time and energy trying to inspire a movement, and yet...both men admittedly have not seen the Lord in years (I would be happy to be corrected via a link to their written testimony of their latest experience with the Lord...that is unless they have redacted their writings which put down the "too sacred to share" philosophy the church pushes and they have now adopted that which they once condemned).

Arrogant? Paradoxical? Incongruous?

And how do I know such things as these? I contacted both of them personally and pointed out these facts and both confirmed their spouses have not received the Lord. And as to them not seeing the Lord in many years...how do I know? Because their writings speak of Jesus (Just like the church does) but within their writings they no longer speak of their experiences WITH Him (also just like the church). When I told Denver the above about his wife having not seen the Lord, he chastised me saying that any such experience would be too sacred. Ahem. And when I pointed that to Rob, he admitted it had been some time and he longed to see the Lord again. His writings are an attempt to "please the Lord" in hopes for another audience. And even more sardonic, Rob Smith has taught his wife that the reason for her delay is tied to her acceptance of polygamy.

So my question is, for those of you that love and follow or read from these people....why?

How, when they can't even inspire or lead their own spouse to an audience with Christ, do you expect to glean anything from their sanctimonious drivel?

[Grassland]

Two facts regarding the author:

1. Rob was excommunicated from the church.
2. Rob has testified that he has seen/been visited by Jesus Christ often.

My only opinion on the matter is that the book is a good fruit. I own a copy and I've listened to it on audio many times.

I wrote this earlier and it is important to consider when speaking of fruit:

Rob Smith, who writes the blog Upward Thought as well as authoring many other books, has something ironic (and might I add disturbingly) in common with Denver Snuffer. Both preach that you can see Christ in this life (both testify they experienced Christ personally coming to them in the flesh years ago). Both dedicate their free time to writing many books about seeking this Jesus and the restoration and coming to Christ in the flesh. And yet, ironically, neither one of their spouses have experienced Christ in the flesh.

That's right, you heard correctly...

Both men speak superfluously, youtube abundantly, blog passionately, and preach wholeheartedly yet....they both can not teach their most beloved treasure how to receive the Lord in the flesh.

These two men who devote their time and energy trying to inspire a movement, and yet...both men admittedly have not seen the Lord in years (I would be happy to be corrected via a link to their written testimony of their latest experience with the Lord...that is unless they have redacted their writings which put down the "too sacred to share" philosophy the church pushes and they have now adopted that which they once condemned).

Arrogant? Paradoxical? Incongruous?

And how do I know such things as these? I contacted both of them personally and pointed out these facts and both confirmed their spouses have not received the Lord. And as to them not seeing the Lord in many years...how do I know? Because their writings speak of Jesus (Just like the church does) but within their writings they no longer speak of their experiences WITH Him (also just like the church). When I told Denver the above about his wife having not seen the Lord, he chastised me saying that any such experience would be too sacred. Ahem. And when I pointed that to Rob, he admitted it had been some time and he longed to see the Lord again. His writings are an attempt to "please the Lord" in hopes for another audience. And even more sardonic, Rob Smith has taught his wife that the reason for her delay is tied to her acceptance of polygamy.

So my question is, for those of you that love and follow or read from these people....why?

How, when they can't even inspire or lead their own spouse to an audience with Christ, do you expect to glean anything from their sanctimonious drivel?

[Grassland]

Earlier today, I posted the following on Facebook and thought that I would make a recommendation for these two books here on LDSFF, too. Hope many of you take the time to check them out.



I don’t post things on Facebook very often, so I hope that, when I do, people know that I consider what I am sharing to be very important to me.

Over the last couple of years, I have been blessed to be voice for two audiobooks. I cannot recommend these books highly enough. The first is “Seek Ye This Jesus: Seeing, Hearing, and Dwelling With God”, by Robert Smith. The second (by the same author) is “The Glory of God is Intelligence: Acquiring and Disseminating Light and Truth”. Paperback and Kindle versions can be purchased on Amazon. The author also has links to those and additional free e-book and free audiobook versions on the right sidebar of his blog: www.upwardthought.blogspot.com

Like most people, my time is limited and I find it difficult to find the time to accomplish all that I would like to on any given day. Nothing short of the recognition of the truth contained in these books and a bit of spurring from the Lord could have ever motivated me to take on the project of recording two audiobooks. It is my opinion that the truths presented in them have the potential to positively affect everything from overcoming our own personal temptations and difficulties to the way in which we conduct our public discourse and debate. I know that the light and truth contained in them comes at a time of great personal and societal darkness and is tangible evidence of God’s mercy to those who have (either knowingly or unknowingly) turned away from Him. They have been big projects, but my sincere testimony is that they will be a great benefit to those who are honest in heart and who are searching for a deeper relationship with God and His truth than they have presently. Please check them out. They are being made available to you at little to no cost and the cost of not understanding what is presented in them is higher than one might imagine.

Much love to all!

Cindy

I wrote this earlier today and is important to consider:

Rob Smith, who writes the blog Upward Thought as well as authoring many other books, has something ironic (and might I add disturbingly) in common with Denver Snuffer. Both preach that you can see Christ in this life (both testify they experienced Christ personally coming to them in the flesh years ago). Both dedicate their free time to writing many books about seeking this Jesus and the restoration and coming to Christ in the flesh. And yet, ironically, neither one of their spouses have experienced Christ in the flesh.

That's right, you heard correctly...

Both men speak superfluously, youtube abundantly, blog passionately, and preach wholeheartedly yet....they both can not teach their most beloved treasure how to receive the Lord in the flesh.

These two men who devote their time and energy trying to inspire a movement, and yet...both men admittedly have not seen the Lord in years (I would be happy to be corrected via a link to their written testimony of their latest experience with the Lord...that is unless they have redacted their writings which put down the "too sacred to share" philosophy the church pushes and they have now adopted that which they once condemned).

Arrogant? Paradoxical? Incongruous?

And how do I know such things as these? I contacted both of them personally and pointed out these facts and both confirmed their spouses have not received the Lord. And as to them not seeing the Lord in many years...how do I know? Because their writings speak of Jesus (Just like the church does) but within their writings they no longer speak of their experiences WITH Him (also just like the church). When I told Denver the above about his wife having not seen the Lord, he chastised me saying that any such experience would be too sacred. Ahem. And when I pointed that to Rob, he admitted it had been some time and he longed to see the Lord again. His writings are an attempt to "please the Lord" in hopes for another audience. And even more sardonic, Rob Smith has taught his wife that the reason for her delay is tied to her acceptance of polygamy.

So my question is, for those of you that love and follow or read from these people....why?

How, when they can't even inspire or lead their own spouse to an audience with Christ, do you expect to glean anything from their sanctimonious drivel?

[marc]

I wrote this earlier today and is important to consider:

Rob Smith, who writes the blog Upward Thought as well as authoring many other books, has something ironic (and might I add disturbingly) in common with Denver Snuffer. Both preach that you can see Christ in this life (both testify they experienced Christ personally coming to them in the flesh years ago). Both dedicate their free time to writing many books about seeking this Jesus and the restoration and coming to Christ in the flesh. And yet, ironically, neither one of their spouses have experienced Christ in the flesh.

That's right, you heard correctly...

Both men speak superfluously, youtube abundantly, blog passionately, and preach wholeheartedly yet....they both can not teach their most beloved treasure how to receive the Lord in the flesh.

These two men who devote their time and energy trying to inspire a movement, and yet...both men admittedly have not seen the Lord in years (I would be happy to be corrected via a link to their written testimony of their latest experience with the Lord...that is unless they have redacted their writings which put down the "too sacred to share" philosophy the church pushes and they have now adopted that which they once condemned).

Arrogant? Paradoxical? Incongruous?

And how do I know such things as these? I contacted both of them personally and pointed out these facts and both confirmed their spouses have not received the Lord. And as to them not seeing the Lord in many years...how do I know? Because their writings speak of Jesus (Just like the church does) but within their writings they no longer speak of their experiences WITH Him (also just like the church). When I told Denver the above about his wife having not seen the Lord, he chastised me saying that any such experience would be too sacred. Ahem. And when I pointed that to Rob, he admitted it had been some time and he longed to see the Lord again. His writings are an attempt to "please the Lord" in hopes for another audience. And even more sardonic, Rob Smith has taught his wife that the reason for her delay is tied to her acceptance of polygamy.

So my question is, for those of you that love and follow or read from these people....why?

How, when they can't even inspire or lead their own spouse to an audience with Christ, do you expect to glean anything from their sanctimonious drivel?

So if I understand your repetitive, identical posts correctly, your issue with both Rob and Denver is not that they never experienced a theophany, but that they haven't received more lately, AND that neither of their spouses have experienced a theophany because of the inadequate tutoring of each of their husbands respectively. In the simplest of terms, is that what you are saying and is that your issue with them?

I have read their books. I also know that Emma Smith never experienced a theophany. We likewise have no record of Zippora, Moses' wife, experiencing a theophany. Neither did Sariah, Lehi's wife. But the primary message of the Book of Mormon is that all are welcome to experience a theophany and we find this in 2 Nephi 32, Ether 4, etc. Or do you consider Nephi's and Joseph Smith's words sanctimonious drivel? Because they likewise taught the same thing.

[Grassland]

I wrote this earlier today and is important to consider:

Rob Smith, who writes the blog Upward Thought as well as authoring many other books, has something ironic (and might I add disturbingly) in common with Denver Snuffer. Both preach that you can see Christ in this life (both testify they experienced Christ personally coming to them in the flesh years ago). Both dedicate their free time to writing many books about seeking this Jesus and the restoration and coming to Christ in the flesh. And yet, ironically, neither one of their spouses have experienced Christ in the flesh.

That's right, you heard correctly...

Both men speak superfluously, youtube abundantly, blog passionately, and preach wholeheartedly yet....they both can not teach their most beloved treasure how to receive the Lord in the flesh.

These two men who devote their time and energy trying to inspire a movement, and yet...both men admittedly have not seen the Lord in years (I would be happy to be corrected via a link to their written testimony of their latest experience with the Lord...that is unless they have redacted their writings which put down the "too sacred to share" philosophy the church pushes and they have now adopted that which they once condemned).

Arrogant? Paradoxical? Incongruous?

And how do I know such things as these? I contacted both of them personally and pointed out these facts and both confirmed their spouses have not received the Lord. And as to them not seeing the Lord in many years...how do I know? Because their writings speak of Jesus (Just like the church does) but within their writings they no longer speak of their experiences WITH Him (also just like the church). When I told Denver the above about his wife having not seen the Lord, he chastised me saying that any such experience would be too sacred. Ahem. And when I pointed that to Rob, he admitted it had been some time and he longed to see the Lord again. His writings are an attempt to "please the Lord" in hopes for another audience. And even more sardonic, Rob Smith has taught his wife that the reason for her delay is tied to her acceptance of polygamy.

So my question is, for those of you that love and follow or read from these people....why?

How, when they can't even inspire or lead their own spouse to an audience with Christ, do you expect to glean anything from their sanctimonious drivel?

So if I understand your repetitive, identical posts correctly, your issue with both Rob and Denver is not that they never experienced a theophany, but that they haven't received more lately, AND that neither of their spouses have experienced a theophany because of the inadequate tutoring of each of their husbands respectively. In the simplest of terms, is that what you are saying and is that your issue with them?

I have read their books. I also know that Emma Smith never experienced a theophany. We likewise have no record of Zippora, Moses' wife, experiencing a theophany. Neither did Sariah, Lehi's wife. But the primary message of the Book of Mormon is that all are welcome to experience a theophany and we find this in 2 Nephi 32, Ether 4, etc. Or do you consider Nephi's and Joseph Smith's words sanctimonious drivel? Because they likewise taught the same thing.

I appreciate your thoughts.

We are living in a far different day and age than scrolls and brass plates. We have the internet, smart phones, video chat, and more. These men write and speak extensively and are able to be spoken to and questioned in real time.

It is not for me to judge if they have or haven't seen the Lord. I choose to believe people are telling the truth and then I use discernment and ask questions to get confirmation.

We are living in real time and can ask of them real questions, which I have done. Their responses have come back and though they profess to know the way/path/method to achieve an audience with the Lord - their fruit lacks the ability to multiply more like unto itself...both in their own home, and among those interested in their writings. They are consistently unable to replicate what they profess to know to even those in their own home. Why spend countless hours preaching you know the way? There are so many preachers doing this and their own homes are not in order. But you have to personally know these preachers to see that adequately....or you have to test their fruit. Good fruit is far more than "it feels good/feels true/feels right". Good fruit means you can plant the seed and then grow the same thing.

I am a fly on the wall Marc. Through your posts I know you love the Lord, I have no issue with you. I know far more of these men after nearly 7 years of personal interactions and letters. I am saying far less than I could. If all I post is a simple fact to help those who love their writings do some introspection on what true fruit should produce, then it is enough. It sounds like some of their writings have been helpful for you, so for you, my experience with their fruit should be considered an anomaly or worthless.

[marc]

Fair enough. I appreciate your more sincere reply. I do believe that both men have seen Jesus at least once. I know that receiving a manifestation from our Savior at least once is no small matter. What the rest of us do with that information is another subject. I am friends with others who have also received a manifestation of our Savior who are not as outspoken as Rob or Denver. This, to me, is compelling evidence that God is no respecter of persons, and also that God decides when He reveals Himself to someone. We are powerless to force Him to reveal Himself, though we may invoke His promises and importune relentlessly. I am one who has importuned now for almost ten years, but I have also stopped trying to weary Him. I am weary of wearying an infinitely patient and omnipotent God. I still do my absolute best to live a sinless life, abounding in good works, and am determined that He find me anxiously engaged in a good cause when He does see fit to manifest Himself to me. I could tell you that all you have to do is keep obeying His commandments and invoke His promise to make His abode with you, and He will do it because He, Himself made this promise in the Book of John. But I cannot be held responsible if Jesus decides to visit you tomorrow or in ten years. His reasons for what He does are His own. Thank you again for your more thoughtful reply.

[cab]

I wrote this earlier today and is important to consider:

Rob Smith, who writes the blog Upward Thought as well as authoring many other books, has something ironic (and might I add disturbingly) in common with Denver Snuffer. Both preach that you can see Christ in this life (both testify they experienced Christ personally coming to them in the flesh years ago). Both dedicate their free time to writing many books about seeking this Jesus and the restoration and coming to Christ in the flesh. And yet, ironically, neither one of their spouses have experienced Christ in the flesh.

That's right, you heard correctly...

Both men speak superfluously, youtube abundantly, blog passionately, and preach wholeheartedly yet....they both can not teach their most beloved treasure how to receive the Lord in the flesh.

These two men who devote their time and energy trying to inspire a movement, and yet...both men admittedly have not seen the Lord in years (I would be happy to be corrected via a link to their written testimony of their latest experience with the Lord...that is unless they have redacted their writings which put down the "too sacred to share" philosophy the church pushes and they have now adopted that which they once condemned).

Arrogant? Paradoxical? Incongruous?

And how do I know such things as these? I contacted both of them personally and pointed out these facts and both confirmed their spouses have not received the Lord. And as to them not seeing the Lord in many years...how do I know? Because their writings speak of Jesus (Just like the church does) but within their writings they no longer speak of their experiences WITH Him (also just like the church). When I told Denver the above about his wife having not seen the Lord, he chastised me saying that any such experience would be too sacred. Ahem. And when I pointed that to Rob, he admitted it had been some time and he longed to see the Lord again. His writings are an attempt to "please the Lord" in hopes for another audience. And even more sardonic, Rob Smith has taught his wife that the reason for her delay is tied to her acceptance of polygamy.

So my question is, for those of you that love and follow or read from these people....why?

How, when they can't even inspire or lead their own spouse to an audience with Christ, do you expect to glean anything from their sanctimonious drivel?

So if I understand your repetitive, identical posts correctly, your issue with both Rob and Denver is not that they never experienced a theophany, but that they haven't received more lately, AND that neither of their spouses have experienced a theophany because of the inadequate tutoring of each of their husbands respectively. In the simplest of terms, is that what you are saying and is that your issue with them?

I have read their books. I also know that Emma Smith never experienced a theophany. We likewise have no record of Zippora, Moses' wife, experiencing a theophany. Neither did Sariah, Lehi's wife. But the primary message of the Book of Mormon is that all are welcome to experience a theophany and we find this in 2 Nephi 32, Ether 4, etc. Or do you consider Nephi's and Joseph Smith's words sanctimonious drivel? Because they likewise taught the same thing.

I appreciate your thoughts.

We are living in a far different day and age than scrolls and brass plates. We have the internet, smart phones, video chat, and more. These men write and speak extensively and are able to be spoken to and questioned in real time.

It is not for me to judge if they have or haven't seen the Lord. I choose to believe people are telling the truth and then I use discernment and ask questions to get confirmation.

We are living in real time and can ask of them real questions, which I have done. Their responses have come back and though they profess to know the way/path/method to achieve an audience with the Lord - their fruit lacks the ability to multiply more like unto itself...both in their own home, and among those interested in their writings. They are consistently unable to replicate what they profess to know to even those in their own home. Why spend countless hours preaching you know the way? There are so many preachers doing this and their own homes are not in order. But you have to personally know these preachers to see that adequately....or you have to test their fruit. Good fruit is far more than "it feels good/feels true/feels right". Good fruit means you can plant the seed and then grow the same thing.

I am a fly on the wall Marc. Through your posts I know you love the Lord, I have no issue with you. I know far more of these men after nearly 7 years of personal interactions and letters. I am saying far less than I could. If all I post is a simple fact to help those who love their writings do some introspection on what true fruit should produce, then it is enough. It sounds like some of their writings have been helpful for you, so for you, my experience with their fruit should be considered an anomaly or worthless.

It’s not your place to judge? Yet you call Rob’s writings drivel?

Ok. I’d say you’ve judged.

I too have issues with Rob and Denver and the path they’ve taken. But, I seek for men who are boldly seeking the Lord and teach the pattern of how to part the veil. And I take what they teach and I use it to seek the Lord myself. I believe this is available to all diligent seekers and we are condemned for unbelief not for believing too much.

Anyone teaching that parting the veil is not necessary or not important cannot be considered a true messenger.

Even worse are those who claim to be true messengers, but have not parted the veil yet allow the masses to believe they have through their double-speak.

[Grassland]

Fair enough. I appreciate your more sincere reply. I do believe that both men have seen Jesus at least once. I know that receiving a manifestation from our Savior at least once is no small matter. What the rest of us do with that information is another subject. I am friends with others who have also received a manifestation of our Savior who are not as outspoken as Rob or Denver. This, to me, is compelling evidence that God is no respecter of persons, and also that God decides when He reveals Himself to someone. We are powerless to force Him to reveal Himself, though we may invoke His promises and importune relentlessly. I am one who has importuned now for almost ten years, but I have also stopped trying to weary Him. I am weary of wearying an infinitely patient and omnipotent God. I still do my absolute best to live a sinless life, abounding in good works, and am determined that He find me anxiously engaged in a good cause when He does see fit to manifest Himself to me. I could tell you that all you have to do is keep obeying His commandments and invoke His promise to make His abode with you, and He will do it because He, Himself made this promise in the Book of John. But I cannot be held responsible if Jesus decides to visit you tomorrow or in ten years. His reasons for what He does are His own. Thank you again for your more thoughtful reply.

This response is real and raw and exactly what I needed. Thank you for sharing this.

[Grassland]

I wrote this earlier today and is important to consider:

Rob Smith, who writes the blog Upward Thought as well as authoring many other books, has something ironic (and might I add disturbingly) in common with Denver Snuffer. Both preach that you can see Christ in this life (both testify they experienced Christ personally coming to them in the flesh years ago). Both dedicate their free time to writing many books about seeking this Jesus and the restoration and coming to Christ in the flesh. And yet, ironically, neither one of their spouses have experienced Christ in the flesh.

That's right, you heard correctly...

Both men speak superfluously, youtube abundantly, blog passionately, and preach wholeheartedly yet....they both can not teach their most beloved treasure how to receive the Lord in the flesh.

These two men who devote their time and energy trying to inspire a movement, and yet...both men admittedly have not seen the Lord in years (I would be happy to be corrected via a link to their written testimony of their latest experience with the Lord...that is unless they have redacted their writings which put down the "too sacred to share" philosophy the church pushes and they have now adopted that which they once condemned).

Arrogant? Paradoxical? Incongruous?

And how do I know such things as these? I contacted both of them personally and pointed out these facts and both confirmed their spouses have not received the Lord. And as to them not seeing the Lord in many years...how do I know? Because their writings speak of Jesus (Just like the church does) but within their writings they no longer speak of their experiences WITH Him (also just like the church). When I told Denver the above about his wife having not seen the Lord, he chastised me saying that any such experience would be too sacred. Ahem. And when I pointed that to Rob, he admitted it had been some time and he longed to see the Lord again. His writings are an attempt to "please the Lord" in hopes for another audience. And even more sardonic, Rob Smith has taught his wife that the reason for her delay is tied to her acceptance of polygamy.

So my question is, for those of you that love and follow or read from these people....why?

How, when they can't even inspire or lead their own spouse to an audience with Christ, do you expect to glean anything from their sanctimonious drivel?

So if I understand your repetitive, identical posts correctly, your issue with both Rob and Denver is not that they never experienced a theophany, but that they haven't received more lately, AND that neither of their spouses have experienced a theophany because of the inadequate tutoring of each of their husbands respectively. In the simplest of terms, is that what you are saying and is that your issue with them?

I have read their books. I also know that Emma Smith never experienced a theophany. We likewise have no record of Zippora, Moses' wife, experiencing a theophany. Neither did Sariah, Lehi's wife. But the primary message of the Book of Mormon is that all are welcome to experience a theophany and we find this in 2 Nephi 32, Ether 4, etc. Or do you consider Nephi's and Joseph Smith's words sanctimonious drivel? Because they likewise taught the same thing.

I appreciate your thoughts.

We are living in a far different day and age than scrolls and brass plates. We have the internet, smart phones, video chat, and more. These men write and speak extensively and are able to be spoken to and questioned in real time.

It is not for me to judge if they have or haven't seen the Lord. I choose to believe people are telling the truth and then I use discernment and ask questions to get confirmation.

We are living in real time and can ask of them real questions, which I have done. Their responses have come back and though they profess to know the way/path/method to achieve an audience with the Lord - their fruit lacks the ability to multiply more like unto itself...both in their own home, and among those interested in their writings. They are consistently unable to replicate what they profess to know to even those in their own home. Why spend countless hours preaching you know the way? There are so many preachers doing this and their own homes are not in order. But you have to personally know these preachers to see that adequately....or you have to test their fruit. Good fruit is far more than "it feels good/feels true/feels right". Good fruit means you can plant the seed and then grow the same thing.

I am a fly on the wall Marc. Through your posts I know you love the Lord, I have no issue with you. I know far more of these men after nearly 7 years of personal interactions and letters. I am saying far less than I could. If all I post is a simple fact to help those who love their writings do some introspection on what true fruit should produce, then it is enough. It sounds like some of their writings have been helpful for you, so for you, my experience with their fruit should be considered an anomaly or worthless.

It’s not your place to judge? Yet you call Rob’s writings drivel?

Ok. I’d say you’ve judged.

I too have issues with Rob and Denver and the path they’ve taken. But, I seek for men who are boldly seeking the Lord and teach the pattern of how to part the veil. And I take what they teach and I use it to seek the Lord myself. I believe this is available to all diligent seekers and we are condemned for unbelief not for believing too much.

Anyone teaching that parting the veil is not necessary or not important cannot be considered a true messenger.

Even worse are those who claim to be true messengers, but have not parted the veil yet allow the masses to believe they have through their double-speak.

That is true, I can see what you mean. I have judged. It is a great weakness of mine. I do think they have seen the Lord at one time and I too value, as you do, men who boldly seek the Lord. I take issue with teachers that rise up and that say they know the way, i.e. Denver and Rob (and there are more than just them rising up right now) and then they sigh and lament and preach that they are so disappointed with people because they don't read and comprehend all they have taught and that perhaps God will just have to wait for another believing generation to bless (all the while their own spouses and children haven't parted the veil). It's hard to explain over writing and I'm leaving out a lot my conversations I've had over the years with them (and others like them). I have read a lot of your comments throughout the years cab and I value your thoughts and journey. You are someone who is truly seeking the Lord and loves Him. Thank you for your thoughts today.