President Nelson - Prophetic !

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gangbusters
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Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by gangbusters »

GrinBearIt wrote: August 13th, 2020, 8:58 pm
gangbusters wrote: August 13th, 2020, 7:58 pm
GrinBearIt wrote: August 13th, 2020, 7:50 pm
gangbusters wrote: August 13th, 2020, 6:50 pm

Now there’s a great attitude. Well that answers my question. We’re still under condemnation bc our BOM study is too elementary.
I think you missed the point-it's not that it's too elementary, it's the fact that to get the members to even to BOM study we have to have it elementary.

The idea that we need a "Come Follow Me" manual to do "Home Study" is ridiculous . . .what did the Saints do 100 years ago prior to slick, nice glossy manuals?

There is probably an inverse relationship with the depth of scripture study and the amount of money put into a "program" with professionally produced videos, manuals, graphics, etc.
I get what you’re saying. I wonder though if the point isn’t to get us to study anything in particular as much as make us take seriously the responsibility of teaching our families.

I am definitely one of those who think the Come Follow Me program is greatly inspired. I did teach my kids before, but now I have a pattern and outline for help. The manuals and videos enhance the experience. That part seems like an odd thing to complain about.
To your first paragraph- you mean before this you never too seriously the responsibility of teaching your family? That is pretty sad.

That is the first duty of parents, spare the rod and spoil the child. Spare The [Iron] Rod (or the Word of God) and you spoil the child.

To the 2nd paragraph, the scriptures are not a passive experience. They are not meant to be watched and absorbed passively. The Scriptures are meant to be lived. We think by knowing the stories of the scriptures (which contains the facts or the acts) that is where the meat comes in.

No, it's when we realize that the Scriptures are a pattern for our lives, as in we live parts of the Scriptures every day in our own lives that they really come alive. Scriptures are to be personalized.

The manuals and videos do not enhance the experience-they actually hinder the experience. The idea that some slick professional movie producer with production credentials is going to produce a something of real deep value is just ludicrous.

If you want depth you have got ponder it and find it yourself; you will never find it in a movie and the idea that one can find it in a movie hinders personal growth and progress. I don't want a soaring music score designed to emotionally manipulate my feelings to give me the "feeling" of the Spirit. It is so vapid. No wonder people leave the Church-we offer nothing but cheap cotton candy.

Let's take the parable of the sower-we only scratch the surface of what that parable is really about.
That’s literally the opposite of what I said. I said I’ve always taught them. And I’ve always taken my responsibility very seriously to “intentionally parent,” as President Nelson says.

I ponder the scriptures for myself. I also find that the manuals and aids help me to teach my kids. I’m sorry you have such a negative and pessimistic view of such obviously well intentioned and good faith efforts from the brethren to help us in our efforts.

And your comment about “cheap cotton candy” is so absurd, yet so emblematic of the majority of nay sayers and bitter hearts on here. I get quite a different feeling from, say, General conference. That must mean I’m just a spiritual baby and easily placated by the thin gruel our leaders serve up.

GrinBearIt
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Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by GrinBearIt »

gangbusters wrote: August 13th, 2020, 9:11 pm
GrinBearIt wrote: August 13th, 2020, 8:58 pm
gangbusters wrote: August 13th, 2020, 7:58 pm
GrinBearIt wrote: August 13th, 2020, 7:50 pm
I think you missed the point-it's not that it's too elementary, it's the fact that to get the members to even to BOM study we have to have it elementary.

The idea that we need a "Come Follow Me" manual to do "Home Study" is ridiculous . . .what did the Saints do 100 years ago prior to slick, nice glossy manuals?

There is probably an inverse relationship with the depth of scripture study and the amount of money put into a "program" with professionally produced videos, manuals, graphics, etc.
I get what you’re saying. I wonder though if the point isn’t to get us to study anything in particular as much as make us take seriously the responsibility of teaching our families.

I am definitely one of those who think the Come Follow Me program is greatly inspired. I did teach my kids before, but now I have a pattern and outline for help. The manuals and videos enhance the experience. That part seems like an odd thing to complain about.
To your first paragraph- you mean before this you never too seriously the responsibility of teaching your family? That is pretty sad.

That is the first duty of parents, spare the rod and spoil the child. Spare The [Iron] Rod (or the Word of God) and you spoil the child.

To the 2nd paragraph, the scriptures are not a passive experience. They are not meant to be watched and absorbed passively. The Scriptures are meant to be lived. We think by knowing the stories of the scriptures (which contains the facts or the acts) that is where the meat comes in.

No, it's when we realize that the Scriptures are a pattern for our lives, as in we live parts of the Scriptures every day in our own lives that they really come alive. Scriptures are to be personalized.

The manuals and videos do not enhance the experience-they actually hinder the experience. The idea that some slick professional movie producer with production credentials is going to produce a something of real deep value is just ludicrous.

If you want depth you have got ponder it and find it yourself; you will never find it in a movie and the idea that one can find it in a movie hinders personal growth and progress. I don't want a soaring music score designed to emotionally manipulate my feelings to give me the "feeling" of the Spirit. It is so vapid. No wonder people leave the Church-we offer nothing but cheap cotton candy.

Let's take the parable of the sower-we only scratch the surface of what that parable is really about.
That’s literally the opposite of what I said. I said I’ve always taught them. And I’ve always taken my responsibility very seriously to “intentionally parent,” as President Nelson says.

I ponder the scriptures for myself. I also find that the manuals and aids help me to teach my kids. I’m sorry you have such a negative and pessimistic view of such obviously well intentioned and good faith efforts from the brethren to help us in our efforts.

And your comment about “cheap cotton candy” is so absurd, yet so emblematic of the majority of nay sayers and bitter hearts on here. I get quite a different feeling from, say, General conference. That must mean I’m just a spiritual baby and easily placated by the thin gruel our leaders serve up.
No, the cheap cotton candy is in reference to the emotional manipulation used in every single Church video. It has a predictable score, it is incredibly formulaic all designed to evoke specific emotions-rather than just letting the story tell itself.

You started this part of the conversation wanting to know if the membership was still under condemnation. I responded yes because the membership needs these types of cheap aides in order to have any motivation to actually take the scriptures seriously.

I get why the Church leaders are doing what they are doing with Come Follow Me, I disagree that it will actually do what they think it will do; in fact I believe it will do the opposite of what they want.

They want the membership to be more well-versed in Scriptures, but instead of demonstrating why being well versed in the Scriptures is necessary for spiritual salvation, they simply give cheap aides so people can feel good about "following the Prophet" as if "following the current leader" is all that is necessary for spiritual salvation.

Of course then you have members such as yourself, who when someone points out to them-hey this stuff is watered down skim milk- those members huff and puff and complain about being called "spiritual babies" or some other nonsense.

Well, if all you want to do is Come Follow Me, yeah you will forever remain a "spiritual baby", b/c CFM is absolutely watered down skim milk, it's barely even milk (especially with all the atrocious changing of actual core doctrine in them!)

I heard someone recently say something with regards to the current political environment and it holds well with the Church membership. The public doesn't want to know the truth-it's why all politicians lie b/c they know the public doesn't really want to be told the truth about our current society (over-indebted, living beyond our means, it will fail, etc. etc. etc.); the same thing in Church membership.

We like to think of ourselves as "chosen by God", yet the harsh reality is we left God many, many moons ago, but we get to pretend we are still pretty holy and awesome-it's called self-delusion. It works until the curtain is ripped back and all is laid bare. That curtain has been ripped back from many other church's with their various scandals . . .and we will have ours. We will have ours because the membership has no clue how to tell right from wrong anymore.

My local leadership not one time over the past 6 months has told members to search the scriptures or anything like that. The message has been "follow the prophet", do CFM, read the Ensign. It's completely focused on the Church saving us instead of us doing the hard work to find the Savior. 180 degrees backwards.

gangbusters
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Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by gangbusters »

Your argument is based on the assumption that the members need the aids to interest them in the scriptures as you claim. You have no clue or way of knowing if that’s actually true. It’s an assumption. An impression. I for one don’t need them. I just think they’re generally good. They center around the scriptures. Often verbatim. Even if people did need them (and they actually worked for them), from what I know of Christ, he’d just be glad they’re trying.

Idk if members as a whole are literally under condemnation, but if they are it’s because we’ve grown cavalier in our devotion and worship, to our commitment to striving to be like Christ, and because of our commitment to embracing Babylon. That I know and can state confidently because I’ve seen it countless times first hand. As you no doubt have.

And this will really enflame you: following the prophet and following Christ are synonymous.

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righteousrepublic
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Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by righteousrepublic »

SPIRIT wrote: August 13th, 2020, 2:20 pm
Mark wrote: August 13th, 2020, 12:24 pm
SPIRIT wrote: August 13th, 2020, 10:33 am
Mark wrote: August 13th, 2020, 9:22 am

Don’t kid yourself brother. You need your daily fix of church bashing or you will go into nasty withdrawal shakes. It’s like a drug dependency. You are driven to keep attacking and criticizing. It holds you hostage. Maybe a priesthood blessing will help? I sure recommend it.
yawn,
ya, like I said, truly a waste of time.
I think it's more like you're the one kidding yourself, and need your daily fix of criticizing others that love and seek after truth.
I'm driven by the truth, and the truth is - that the church is in apostasy, and Isaiah shows and tells of that,
and criticizes the church and it's leaders - much more than I ever could.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56312&p=1052875#p1052875
You sound exactly like the true and living church of the last days (tlc) folks out of Manti Ut who tried to pull any sucker who would listen away from the real church of Jesus Christ and into their revolving cesspool of apostate teachings that bore destructive fruits. How did that turn out for them? Google it. It might be 25 years later but obviously things haven’t changed much. The same tired arguments persist Attempting to draw people away from the safety of the restored church into forbidden paths of apostasy. May you fail miserably in your mission..
"into forbidden paths of apostasy" lol.
oh my word. Isaiah was right - parroting back what their leaders teach.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55000&p=1028939&hil ... g#p1028939
you've missed your calling.
you'd better start writing articles for the church.
here, I'll give you some other quotes that are popular that you might want to use next time.
"stay in the boat - the good ship Zion"
and "it's a slippery slope". - you gotta use that one.

Yes, I'm in a path of apostasy - from a church that's in apostasy.

yep, this is certainly a waste of time.
in your own words -
"Don’t you have anything better to do with your time" than to fight against truth
"day in and day out? Maybe find ANOTHER hobby?" like, instead of constantly criticizing others
and thinking that "all is well in Zion", and caring so much about following the prophet,
try actually reading the scriptures for once, so you might find out the real truth for yourself,
and then you could actually have an intelligent discussion with others,
about something important for a change - like about the gospel, and how we were warned,
but fell into apostasy, like those before us.

"the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch"
Although someone keeps repeating that it is a waste of time, the drama continues and I have to go buy some more popcorn. Dang!

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cab
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Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by cab »

Following a prophet (heeding the prophet’s call to repentance) is a sure way to be pointed towards Christ. Unfortunately, all throughout history there are many who are proped up as prophets by God’s own people yet who fall short of being actual prophets because over time they seem to incrementally lose the power of the Holy Ghost and spirit of propecy in favor of tradition and thus teach for doctrine the precepts of men. Though they may “sit in Moses‘ seat” (see Matthew 23), they fall far short of Moses - or, dare I say, Joseph Smith.

I read this article the other day and agree with most of it.
https://rationalfaiths.com/is-the-lds-c ... -apostasy/

Also here’s a free book that helped open my eyes to a great many things.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6t-rQ ... VvR1U/view

diligently seeking
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Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by diligently seeking »

True wrote: August 13th, 2020, 6:11 pm
diligently seeking wrote: August 13th, 2020, 1:45 am
True wrote: August 12th, 2020, 10:55 pm
diligently seeking wrote: August 12th, 2020, 9:57 pm

I discerned an attacking spirit by you. I’m sure this is what Spirit felt as well? You seem, from my observation— to be glorying in this?
Honestly, Spirit is the very definition of an attacking spirit. Night and day, 24/7. He trashes the church, the prophets and anyone faithful to the church. I just felt like I needed to call him out on it.

We ALL could do better at following converted Peter’s advice:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Too often we revert to unconverted Peter behavior and cut off ears in defense of truth thinking heaven is in our corner waiting to give us a high five. Yikes, this fallen existence and our all to willing weak flesh complicity to do its bidding...

True, I hope all is well for you. I love that your relationship with Christ is deepening through what I’ve read... No doubt you are lovely person and would make a great friend and example to one and all were you a neighbor to any one of us ldsff sojourners... all the best and continued closeness and success with our Savior 🙏 JaredB
My favorite poster!! So good to hear from you JB:) Correction duly noted and deserved. I need to get off of here!

No great progress here. But I still remember. I’m going to go ahead and blame the three teenage boys although that is not true. Anyone know how to raise teenage boys correctly? My husband and I are thinking that if we were terrible people they may be turning out better! All the difficult parental situations in our ward seem to turn out great kids!! Oh well. Hope everything is going great for you.
Light and darkness are. ramping up quite a bit. I have two teenage kids that are a source of worry. I was shown in open vision a dark entity that my daughter through her agency chooses to be attached to. I have been shown other things in relation to this and the healing solution. Familiar spirits demons and devils are marginalized too often With our chosen understanding much to our Mortal walk frustration and to their delight. Sigh...

True, I’m (sincerely) grateful for your faith and courage and love for all things holy. We / I feel it and are / am blessed for it. Keep on keeping on choice sister. 🤟🏻

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SPIRIT
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Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by SPIRIT »

gangbusters wrote: August 13th, 2020, 2:48 pm
Alexander wrote: August 13th, 2020, 2:17 pm
gangbusters wrote: August 13th, 2020, 1:46 pm
Alexander wrote: August 13th, 2020, 12:52 pm

So tying that back to your original comment, you were saying that all we have to do is keep our covenants, and Jesus’ grace makes up the rest.

I would like to refute this idea and say that nothing we do can merit our own salvation, other than repent. Jesus doesn’t make up the difference; Jesus makes all of it. He carries us all the way. His grace (his gift of salvation) only has effect on us if we repent and come unto Him. Those who do are accounted among His assembly (church).

The covenants we make in the temple, or rather the symbolic rituals/rites we participate in the temple, are directives for us to go and receive more.

The Endowmnent is symbolic of the gift of the Holy Ghost, which sanctification allows us to be saved, arise, and pierce the veil. The washings and anointings represent the baptism of water and baptism of fire and Holy Ghost. The marks and prints at the veil represent the Lord, because it is only in and through Christ that we are saved and can reach the Father. The marks representing the tokens in Christ’s hands and feet we can feel and touch when we receive the Second Comforter experience.

So while we may have gone through the temple, perhaps multiple times, the checklist of temple ordinances we receive or the “covenant path” is only symbolic and directive. It isn’t the real thing. We have to seek for the real thing through a relationship with Christ.

Think of it like the israelites. Did the animal sacrifice they gave cleanse them? Or was it symbolic of the savior who can cleanse and save them?

In D&C 84 it says our church institution (the COJCOLDS) is under condemnation, and our minds are darkened. Because of our vanity and unbelief, we have been given a lower law (temple ordinances and perfunctory duties in the church) to point us toward the Doctrine of Christ found in the Book of Mormon.

I say all this because there is danger in our carnal security, when we think the “covenant path” saves us; that all we have to do is go to the temple and do the checklist and be active in the church and everything will work out.

We have to be born again, become saints and become the children of Christ. We have to be saved. It says so all over the Book of Mormon. We have to repent and seek for the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost (salvation in and through Christ).

If any ecclesiastical leader of any church or any person is declaring more or less than the Doctrine of Christ, their teachings and gospel are not of God.
I thought this might be your end game. You of course are stretching my words a bit. I never said "all we have to do . . ." and I didn't say that Jesus's grace "does the rest." We're saved by his grace. Even if we keep our covenants, we are not saved by any power of that act, because there is no power therein that can save us, it's Jesus. But make no mistake, we must keep our covenants to achieve eternal life, all of them.

And I see you are also part of the "the Church is under condemnation" crowd, which I infer to mean the Church is lost, wandering in the wilderness, etc. I don't refute the scripture, only the breadth to which it's interpreted ad naseum on here.
Ah ok. My mistake. I apologize for stretching your words.

I’m glad you brought up eternal life.

John 17
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Eternal life is to know Jesus and God. The Doctrine of Christ is the pathway and gate toward eternal life. So by repenting and coming unto Yeshua, we receive a closer relationship with Him. Jesus is the Beginning and the End. We must endure to the end, until we are saved and enter into his presence! The scriptures point heavily toward receiving the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost as well as the second comforter.

The temple ordinances point to these things. But if we remain and dwell upon the temporal ordinances themselves and do not seek the relationship they symbolize, we will not be saved or receive eternal life.

You don’t have to agree that the church is under as much condemnation as it is, or that it has been corrupted and lifted up in pride, and preaches not the pure and simple doctrine of Christ, but it doesn’t escape the fact that it is so. The Book of Mormon heavily rebukes the Latter Day Saints and other churches of our day. Especially look into 2 Nephi 28.(Ezra Benson has also said we are still under condemnation to this day for taking the Book of Mormon lightly).

It’s not until we recognize our broken and fallen state that we can repent and seek Jesus who will lift us up into salvation and everlasting life.
The BOM says that all churches are corrupted. The D&C says that we are under condemnation for taking lightly the BOM. I believe both to be true; but like I said, I do not think that means the whole leadership, organization, and teachings of the Church are to be discarded and disregarded. That is not a proper interpretation of that scripture. It is justification for people to disregard prophetic counsel they disagree with. WE, the membership, as a whole, and not necessarily individually, are under condemnation. Example: we read the BOM with our kids every single night. We study it, ponder it, etc. Am I under condemnation? No, I don't think I am. The difference in our thinking I think appears to be whether the Church leadership or membership is under condemnation. Even if it's the whole enchilada, that does not justify disregarding our leaders. That condemnation is not all encompassing.

I have no disagreement with any of the scriptures you quoted. That does not change the fact that true devotion, from the very beginning, has been based on making and keeping covenants.

EDIT: The revelation that we are under condemnation for taking lightly the BOM was given what, 180 years ago, give or take? How do we know we're still under that condemnation? How could I personally (or anyone in the Church now) be under that condemnation if none of us were even a glimmer in anyone's eye when that revelation was given?
"how do we know"
we are still under condemnation and it has never been lifted ?
*** because we are still treating The Book of Mormon lightly
and haven't received the "greater things" the sealed portion
*** PROVE !
have we received - the greater things ? - the sealed portion of The Book of Mormon ? NO !
WHY ?
(PLEASE CLICK ON THIS LINK AND READ CAREFULLY !
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53945&p=1038129&hil ... y#p1038129

"One" sign of our apostasy is that, as of yet we still have not received the "greater things" - the sealed portion.
which includes (The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision covering the entire history of humanity)

Why haven't we received the "greater things" the sealed portion ?
because the Lord said he would try our faith first.
"I will try the faith of my people."
So how are we doing ?
by the looks of it, not so good, because we have not yet received it.
And because we have not received it, "the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation...."


***

Ezra T. Benson
has said that we were under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.

“If the early Saints were rebuked for treating
the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less
condemnation if we do the same?”
(in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 4;
or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 4–5).
D&C 84:
***
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—


55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

*** 57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—

gangbusters
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Posts: 426
Location: The Potato State
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Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by gangbusters »

SPIRIT wrote: August 14th, 2020, 9:28 am
gangbusters wrote: August 13th, 2020, 2:48 pm
Alexander wrote: August 13th, 2020, 2:17 pm
gangbusters wrote: August 13th, 2020, 1:46 pm

I thought this might be your end game. You of course are stretching my words a bit. I never said "all we have to do . . ." and I didn't say that Jesus's grace "does the rest." We're saved by his grace. Even if we keep our covenants, we are not saved by any power of that act, because there is no power therein that can save us, it's Jesus. But make no mistake, we must keep our covenants to achieve eternal life, all of them.

And I see you are also part of the "the Church is under condemnation" crowd, which I infer to mean the Church is lost, wandering in the wilderness, etc. I don't refute the scripture, only the breadth to which it's interpreted ad naseum on here.
Ah ok. My mistake. I apologize for stretching your words.

I’m glad you brought up eternal life.

John 17
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Eternal life is to know Jesus and God. The Doctrine of Christ is the pathway and gate toward eternal life. So by repenting and coming unto Yeshua, we receive a closer relationship with Him. Jesus is the Beginning and the End. We must endure to the end, until we are saved and enter into his presence! The scriptures point heavily toward receiving the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost as well as the second comforter.

The temple ordinances point to these things. But if we remain and dwell upon the temporal ordinances themselves and do not seek the relationship they symbolize, we will not be saved or receive eternal life.

You don’t have to agree that the church is under as much condemnation as it is, or that it has been corrupted and lifted up in pride, and preaches not the pure and simple doctrine of Christ, but it doesn’t escape the fact that it is so. The Book of Mormon heavily rebukes the Latter Day Saints and other churches of our day. Especially look into 2 Nephi 28.(Ezra Benson has also said we are still under condemnation to this day for taking the Book of Mormon lightly).

It’s not until we recognize our broken and fallen state that we can repent and seek Jesus who will lift us up into salvation and everlasting life.
The BOM says that all churches are corrupted. The D&C says that we are under condemnation for taking lightly the BOM. I believe both to be true; but like I said, I do not think that means the whole leadership, organization, and teachings of the Church are to be discarded and disregarded. That is not a proper interpretation of that scripture. It is justification for people to disregard prophetic counsel they disagree with. WE, the membership, as a whole, and not necessarily individually, are under condemnation. Example: we read the BOM with our kids every single night. We study it, ponder it, etc. Am I under condemnation? No, I don't think I am. The difference in our thinking I think appears to be whether the Church leadership or membership is under condemnation. Even if it's the whole enchilada, that does not justify disregarding our leaders. That condemnation is not all encompassing.

I have no disagreement with any of the scriptures you quoted. That does not change the fact that true devotion, from the very beginning, has been based on making and keeping covenants.

EDIT: The revelation that we are under condemnation for taking lightly the BOM was given what, 180 years ago, give or take? How do we know we're still under that condemnation? How could I personally (or anyone in the Church now) be under that condemnation if none of us were even a glimmer in anyone's eye when that revelation was given?
"how do we know"
we are still under condemnation and it has never been lifted ?
*** because we are still treating The Book of Mormon lightly
and haven't received the "greater things" the sealed portion
*** PROVE !
have we received - the greater things ? - the sealed portion of The Book of Mormon ? NO !
WHY ?
(PLEASE CLICK ON THIS LINK AND READ CAREFULLY !
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53945&p=1038129&hil ... y#p1038129

"One" sign of our apostasy is that, as of yet we still have not received the "greater things" - the sealed portion.
which includes (The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision covering the entire history of humanity)

Why haven't we received the "greater things" the sealed portion ?
because the Lord said he would try our faith first.
"I will try the faith of my people."
So how are we doing ?
by the looks of it, not so good, because we have not yet received it.
And because we have not received it, "the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation...."


***

Ezra T. Benson
has said that we were under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.

“If the early Saints were rebuked for treating
the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less
condemnation if we do the same?”
(in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 4;
or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 4–5).
D&C 84:
***
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—


55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

*** 57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—
The most compelling thing you quoted are the words of President Benson. It certainly sounds like we are, as a whole, under that condemnation.

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Mark
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Posts: 6929

Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by Mark »

gangbusters wrote: August 14th, 2020, 9:42 am
SPIRIT wrote: August 14th, 2020, 9:28 am
gangbusters wrote: August 13th, 2020, 2:48 pm
Alexander wrote: August 13th, 2020, 2:17 pm

Ah ok. My mistake. I apologize for stretching your words.

I’m glad you brought up eternal life.

John 17
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Eternal life is to know Jesus and God. The Doctrine of Christ is the pathway and gate toward eternal life. So by repenting and coming unto Yeshua, we receive a closer relationship with Him. Jesus is the Beginning and the End. We must endure to the end, until we are saved and enter into his presence! The scriptures point heavily toward receiving the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost as well as the second comforter.

The temple ordinances point to these things. But if we remain and dwell upon the temporal ordinances themselves and do not seek the relationship they symbolize, we will not be saved or receive eternal life.

You don’t have to agree that the church is under as much condemnation as it is, or that it has been corrupted and lifted up in pride, and preaches not the pure and simple doctrine of Christ, but it doesn’t escape the fact that it is so. The Book of Mormon heavily rebukes the Latter Day Saints and other churches of our day. Especially look into 2 Nephi 28.(Ezra Benson has also said we are still under condemnation to this day for taking the Book of Mormon lightly).

It’s not until we recognize our broken and fallen state that we can repent and seek Jesus who will lift us up into salvation and everlasting life.
The BOM says that all churches are corrupted. The D&C says that we are under condemnation for taking lightly the BOM. I believe both to be true; but like I said, I do not think that means the whole leadership, organization, and teachings of the Church are to be discarded and disregarded. That is not a proper interpretation of that scripture. It is justification for people to disregard prophetic counsel they disagree with. WE, the membership, as a whole, and not necessarily individually, are under condemnation. Example: we read the BOM with our kids every single night. We study it, ponder it, etc. Am I under condemnation? No, I don't think I am. The difference in our thinking I think appears to be whether the Church leadership or membership is under condemnation. Even if it's the whole enchilada, that does not justify disregarding our leaders. That condemnation is not all encompassing.

I have no disagreement with any of the scriptures you quoted. That does not change the fact that true devotion, from the very beginning, has been based on making and keeping covenants.

EDIT: The revelation that we are under condemnation for taking lightly the BOM was given what, 180 years ago, give or take? How do we know we're still under that condemnation? How could I personally (or anyone in the Church now) be under that condemnation if none of us were even a glimmer in anyone's eye when that revelation was given?
"how do we know"
we are still under condemnation and it has never been lifted ?
*** because we are still treating The Book of Mormon lightly
and haven't received the "greater things" the sealed portion
*** PROVE !
have we received - the greater things ? - the sealed portion of The Book of Mormon ? NO !
WHY ?
(PLEASE CLICK ON THIS LINK AND READ CAREFULLY !
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53945&p=1038129&hil ... y#p1038129

"One" sign of our apostasy is that, as of yet we still have not received the "greater things" - the sealed portion.
which includes (The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision covering the entire history of humanity)

Why haven't we received the "greater things" the sealed portion ?
because the Lord said he would try our faith first.
"I will try the faith of my people."
So how are we doing ?
by the looks of it, not so good, because we have not yet received it.
And because we have not received it, "the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation...."


***

Ezra T. Benson
has said that we were under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.

“If the early Saints were rebuked for treating
the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less
condemnation if we do the same?”
(in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 4;
or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 4–5).
D&C 84:
***
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—


55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

*** 57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—
The most compelling thing you quoted are the words of President Benson. It certainly sounds like we are, as a whole, under that condemnation.
Do not get taken in by the sophistry being used here to slander the church and its leadership. People on this board use Pres. Benson when it suits their purposes such as his call to repentance for treating the BOM lightly but they ignore what he subsequently testified of After his talk on the BOM as it pertains to the importance of this latter day work in building the Kingdom of God on earth. He did NOT believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints would fall into a state of apostasy as has been said ad nausea here by the likes of Spirit and many other church antagonists. On the contrary he continued to testify of the divine directive given To the church to prepare the way for the coming of the Lord back to the earth. I will point you to the final talk He personally delivered in GC in Oct 1988 Titled “I Testify”. I will post the talk. It is a powerful testimony of a Prophet of the Lord. I will quote a few parts of the talk to remind everyone what the Prophet actually thought. It sure isnt what has been said here time and again by those who attack the church and claim its downfall.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

“I testify that there has been, and there is now, and there will be legal successors to the Prophet Joseph Smith who hold the keys of the kingdom of God on earth, even the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (See D&C 21:1–7; D&C 107:91–92; D&C 112:15.) He receives revelation from God to direct His kingdom. Associated with him are others who are prophets, seers, and revelators, even those who make up the presiding quorums of the Church, namely the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. (See D&C 112:30.)“

“I testify that the church and kingdom of God is increasing in strength. Its numbers are growing, as is the faithfulness of its faithful members. It has never been better organized or equipped to perform its divine mission.“

“I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil. As these conflicts rage, either secretly or openly, the righteous will be tested. God’s wrath will soon shake the nations of the earth and will be poured out on the wicked without measure. (See JS—H 1:45; D&C 1:9.) But God will provide strength for the righteous and the means of escape; and eventually and finally truth will triumph. (See 1 Ne. 22:15–23.)“

“I testify that it is time for every man to set in order his own house both temporally and spiritually. It is time for the unbeliever to learn for himself that this work is true, that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom which Daniel prophesied God would set up in the latter days, never to be destroyed, a stone that would eventually fill the whole earth and stand forever. (See Dan. 2:34–45; D&C 65:2.) It is time for us, as members of the Church, to walk in all the ways of the Lord, to use our influence to make popular that which is sound and to make unpopular that which is unsound. We have the scriptures, the prophets, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Now we need eyes that will see, ears that will hear, and hearts that will hearken to God’s direction.“

simpleton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3074

Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by simpleton »

Mark wrote: August 14th, 2020, 12:19 pm
gangbusters wrote: August 14th, 2020, 9:42 am
SPIRIT wrote: August 14th, 2020, 9:28 am
gangbusters wrote: August 13th, 2020, 2:48 pm

The BOM says that all churches are corrupted. The D&C says that we are under condemnation for taking lightly the BOM. I believe both to be true; but like I said, I do not think that means the whole leadership, organization, and teachings of the Church are to be discarded and disregarded. That is not a proper interpretation of that scripture. It is justification for people to disregard prophetic counsel they disagree with. WE, the membership, as a whole, and not necessarily individually, are under condemnation. Example: we read the BOM with our kids every single night. We study it, ponder it, etc. Am I under condemnation? No, I don't think I am. The difference in our thinking I think appears to be whether the Church leadership or membership is under condemnation. Even if it's the whole enchilada, that does not justify disregarding our leaders. That condemnation is not all encompassing.

I have no disagreement with any of the scriptures you quoted. That does not change the fact that true devotion, from the very beginning, has been based on making and keeping covenants.

EDIT: The revelation that we are under condemnation for taking lightly the BOM was given what, 180 years ago, give or take? How do we know we're still under that condemnation? How could I personally (or anyone in the Church now) be under that condemnation if none of us were even a glimmer in anyone's eye when that revelation was given?
"how do we know"
we are still under condemnation and it has never been lifted ?
*** because we are still treating The Book of Mormon lightly
and haven't received the "greater things" the sealed portion
*** PROVE !
have we received - the greater things ? - the sealed portion of The Book of Mormon ? NO !
WHY ?
(PLEASE CLICK ON THIS LINK AND READ CAREFULLY !
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53945&p=1038129&hil ... y#p1038129

"One" sign of our apostasy is that, as of yet we still have not received the "greater things" - the sealed portion.
which includes (The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision covering the entire history of humanity)

Why haven't we received the "greater things" the sealed portion ?
because the Lord said he would try our faith first.
"I will try the faith of my people."
So how are we doing ?
by the looks of it, not so good, because we have not yet received it.
And because we have not received it, "the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation...."


***

Ezra T. Benson
has said that we were under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.

“If the early Saints were rebuked for treating
the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less
condemnation if we do the same?”
(in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 4;
or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 4–5).
D&C 84:
***
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—


55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

*** 57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—
The most compelling thing you quoted are the words of President Benson. It certainly sounds like we are, as a whole, under that condemnation.
Do not get taken in by the sophistry being used here to slander the church and its leadership. People on this board use Pres. Benson when it suits their purposes such as his call to repentance for treating the BOM lightly but they ignore what he subsequently testified of After his talk on the BOM as it pertains to the importance of this latter day work in building the Kingdom of God on earth. He did NOT believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints would fall into a state of apostasy as has been said ad nausea here by the likes of Spirit and many other church antagonists. On the contrary he continued to testify of the divine directive given To the church to prepare the way for the coming of the Lord back to the earth. I will point you to the final talk He personally delivered in GC in Oct 1988 Titled “I Testify”. I will post the talk. It is a powerful testimony of a Prophet of the Lord. I will quote a few parts of the talk to remind everyone what the Prophet actually thought. It sure isnt what has been said here time and again by those who attack the church and claim its downfall.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

“I testify that there has been, and there is now, and there will be legal successors to the Prophet Joseph Smith who hold the keys of the kingdom of God on earth, even the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (See D&C 21:1–7; D&C 107:91–92; D&C 112:15.) He receives revelation from God to direct His kingdom. Associated with him are others who are prophets, seers, and revelators, even those who make up the presiding quorums of the Church, namely the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. (See D&C 112:30.)“

“I testify that the church and kingdom of God is increasing in strength. Its numbers are growing, as is the faithfulness of its faithful members. It has never been better organized or equipped to perform its divine mission.“

“I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil. As these conflicts rage, either secretly or openly, the righteous will be tested. God’s wrath will soon shake the nations of the earth and will be poured out on the wicked without measure. (See JS—H 1:45; D&C 1:9.) But God will provide strength for the righteous and the means of escape; and eventually and finally truth will triumph. (See 1 Ne. 22:15–23.)“

“I testify that it is time for every man to set in order his own house both temporally and spiritually. It is time for the unbeliever to learn for himself that this work is true, that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom which Daniel prophesied God would set up in the latter days, never to be destroyed, a stone that would eventually fill the whole earth and stand forever. (See Dan. 2:34–45; D&C 65:2.) It is time for us, as members of the Church, to walk in all the ways of the Lord, to use our influence to make popular that which is sound and to make unpopular that which is unsound. We have the scriptures, the prophets, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Now we need eyes that will see, ears that will hear, and hearts that will hearken to God’s direction.“
Well here I go again with the criticizing, but the church is not the Kingdom of God, period.
They are two separate organizations.

gangbusters
captain of 100
Posts: 426
Location: The Potato State
Contact:

Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by gangbusters »

Mark wrote: August 14th, 2020, 12:19 pm
gangbusters wrote: August 14th, 2020, 9:42 am
SPIRIT wrote: August 14th, 2020, 9:28 am
gangbusters wrote: August 13th, 2020, 2:48 pm

The BOM says that all churches are corrupted. The D&C says that we are under condemnation for taking lightly the BOM. I believe both to be true; but like I said, I do not think that means the whole leadership, organization, and teachings of the Church are to be discarded and disregarded. That is not a proper interpretation of that scripture. It is justification for people to disregard prophetic counsel they disagree with. WE, the membership, as a whole, and not necessarily individually, are under condemnation. Example: we read the BOM with our kids every single night. We study it, ponder it, etc. Am I under condemnation? No, I don't think I am. The difference in our thinking I think appears to be whether the Church leadership or membership is under condemnation. Even if it's the whole enchilada, that does not justify disregarding our leaders. That condemnation is not all encompassing.

I have no disagreement with any of the scriptures you quoted. That does not change the fact that true devotion, from the very beginning, has been based on making and keeping covenants.

EDIT: The revelation that we are under condemnation for taking lightly the BOM was given what, 180 years ago, give or take? How do we know we're still under that condemnation? How could I personally (or anyone in the Church now) be under that condemnation if none of us were even a glimmer in anyone's eye when that revelation was given?
"how do we know"
we are still under condemnation and it has never been lifted ?
*** because we are still treating The Book of Mormon lightly
and haven't received the "greater things" the sealed portion
*** PROVE !
have we received - the greater things ? - the sealed portion of The Book of Mormon ? NO !
WHY ?
(PLEASE CLICK ON THIS LINK AND READ CAREFULLY !
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53945&p=1038129&hil ... y#p1038129

"One" sign of our apostasy is that, as of yet we still have not received the "greater things" - the sealed portion.
which includes (The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision covering the entire history of humanity)

Why haven't we received the "greater things" the sealed portion ?
because the Lord said he would try our faith first.
"I will try the faith of my people."
So how are we doing ?
by the looks of it, not so good, because we have not yet received it.
And because we have not received it, "the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation...."


***

Ezra T. Benson
has said that we were under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.

“If the early Saints were rebuked for treating
the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less
condemnation if we do the same?”
(in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 4;
or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 4–5).
D&C 84:
***
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—


55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

*** 57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—
The most compelling thing you quoted are the words of President Benson. It certainly sounds like we are, as a whole, under that condemnation.
Do not get taken in by the sophistry being used here to slander the church and its leadership. People on this board use Pres. Benson when it suits their purposes such as his call to repentance for treating the BOM lightly but they ignore what he subsequently testified of After his talk on the BOM as it pertains to the importance of this latter day work in building the Kingdom of God on earth. He did NOT believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints would fall into a state of apostasy as has been said ad nausea here by the likes of Spirit and many other church antagonists. On the contrary he continued to testify of the divine directive given To the church to prepare the way for the coming of the Lord back to the earth. I will point you to the final talk He personally delivered in GC in Oct 1988 Titled “I Testify”. I will post the talk. It is a powerful testimony of a Prophet of the Lord. I will quote a few parts of the talk to remind everyone what the Prophet actually thought. It sure isnt what has been said here time and again by those who attack the church and claim its downfall.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

“I testify that there has been, and there is now, and there will be legal successors to the Prophet Joseph Smith who hold the keys of the kingdom of God on earth, even the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (See D&C 21:1–7; D&C 107:91–92; D&C 112:15.) He receives revelation from God to direct His kingdom. Associated with him are others who are prophets, seers, and revelators, even those who make up the presiding quorums of the Church, namely the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. (See D&C 112:30.)“

“I testify that the church and kingdom of God is increasing in strength. Its numbers are growing, as is the faithfulness of its faithful members. It has never been better organized or equipped to perform its divine mission.“

“I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil. As these conflicts rage, either secretly or openly, the righteous will be tested. God’s wrath will soon shake the nations of the earth and will be poured out on the wicked without measure. (See JS—H 1:45; D&C 1:9.) But God will provide strength for the righteous and the means of escape; and eventually and finally truth will triumph. (See 1 Ne. 22:15–23.)“

“I testify that it is time for every man to set in order his own house both temporally and spiritually. It is time for the unbeliever to learn for himself that this work is true, that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom which Daniel prophesied God would set up in the latter days, never to be destroyed, a stone that would eventually fill the whole earth and stand forever. (See Dan. 2:34–45; D&C 65:2.) It is time for us, as members of the Church, to walk in all the ways of the Lord, to use our influence to make popular that which is sound and to make unpopular that which is unsound. We have the scriptures, the prophets, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Now we need eyes that will see, ears that will hear, and hearts that will hearken to God’s direction.“
Thanks for that. Powerful testimony. And yes, LDSFF is the only place where past prophets are revered, present ones are reviled.

User avatar
Mark
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6929

Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by Mark »

simpleton wrote: August 14th, 2020, 12:43 pm
Mark wrote: August 14th, 2020, 12:19 pm
gangbusters wrote: August 14th, 2020, 9:42 am
SPIRIT wrote: August 14th, 2020, 9:28 am

"how do we know"
we are still under condemnation and it has never been lifted ?
*** because we are still treating The Book of Mormon lightly
and haven't received the "greater things" the sealed portion
*** PROVE !
have we received - the greater things ? - the sealed portion of The Book of Mormon ? NO !
WHY ?
(PLEASE CLICK ON THIS LINK AND READ CAREFULLY !
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53945&p=1038129&hil ... y#p1038129

"One" sign of our apostasy is that, as of yet we still have not received the "greater things" - the sealed portion.
which includes (The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision covering the entire history of humanity)

Why haven't we received the "greater things" the sealed portion ?
because the Lord said he would try our faith first.
"I will try the faith of my people."
So how are we doing ?
by the looks of it, not so good, because we have not yet received it.
And because we have not received it, "the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation...."


***

Ezra T. Benson
has said that we were under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.

“If the early Saints were rebuked for treating
the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less
condemnation if we do the same?”
(in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 4;
or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 4–5).
D&C 84:
***
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—


55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

*** 57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—
The most compelling thing you quoted are the words of President Benson. It certainly sounds like we are, as a whole, under that condemnation.
Do not get taken in by the sophistry being used here to slander the church and its leadership. People on this board use Pres. Benson when it suits their purposes such as his call to repentance for treating the BOM lightly but they ignore what he subsequently testified of After his talk on the BOM as it pertains to the importance of this latter day work in building the Kingdom of God on earth. He did NOT believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints would fall into a state of apostasy as has been said ad nausea here by the likes of Spirit and many other church antagonists. On the contrary he continued to testify of the divine directive given To the church to prepare the way for the coming of the Lord back to the earth. I will point you to the final talk He personally delivered in GC in Oct 1988 Titled “I Testify”. I will post the talk. It is a powerful testimony of a Prophet of the Lord. I will quote a few parts of the talk to remind everyone what the Prophet actually thought. It sure isnt what has been said here time and again by those who attack the church and claim its downfall.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

“I testify that there has been, and there is now, and there will be legal successors to the Prophet Joseph Smith who hold the keys of the kingdom of God on earth, even the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (See D&C 21:1–7; D&C 107:91–92; D&C 112:15.) He receives revelation from God to direct His kingdom. Associated with him are others who are prophets, seers, and revelators, even those who make up the presiding quorums of the Church, namely the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. (See D&C 112:30.)“

“I testify that the church and kingdom of God is increasing in strength. Its numbers are growing, as is the faithfulness of its faithful members. It has never been better organized or equipped to perform its divine mission.“

“I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil. As these conflicts rage, either secretly or openly, the righteous will be tested. God’s wrath will soon shake the nations of the earth and will be poured out on the wicked without measure. (See JS—H 1:45; D&C 1:9.) But God will provide strength for the righteous and the means of escape; and eventually and finally truth will triumph. (See 1 Ne. 22:15–23.)“

“I testify that it is time for every man to set in order his own house both temporally and spiritually. It is time for the unbeliever to learn for himself that this work is true, that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom which Daniel prophesied God would set up in the latter days, never to be destroyed, a stone that would eventually fill the whole earth and stand forever. (See Dan. 2:34–45; D&C 65:2.) It is time for us, as members of the Church, to walk in all the ways of the Lord, to use our influence to make popular that which is sound and to make unpopular that which is unsound. We have the scriptures, the prophets, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Now we need eyes that will see, ears that will hear, and hearts that will hearken to God’s direction.“
Well here I go again with the criticizing, but the church is not the Kingdom of God, period.
They are two separate organizations.
Wow I guess the Lord didn't understand that either in His revelation given thru the Prophet Joseph Smith in Section 65. Which church provides all mankind with the principles of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ? Which church did the Lord say was the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth? What did the Lord name His church in section 115? Did Joseph just make all this up? And by the way I know all about the council of 50 and their place in the establishment of the political/constitutional govt. of Zion in the Kingdom. That does not negate the church's role in the critical part it plays within that established kingdom of God on earth.

SECTION 65

Revelation on prayer given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Hiram, Ohio, October 30, 1831.

1–2, The keys of the kingdom of God are committed to man on earth, and the gospel cause will triumph; 3–6, The millennial kingdom of heaven will come and join the kingdom of God on earth.

1 Hearken, and lo, a voice as of one sent down from on high, who is mighty and powerful, whose going forth is unto the ends of the earth, yea, whose voice is unto men—Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

2 The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.

3 Yea, a voice crying—Prepare ye the way of the Lord, prepare ye the supper of the Lamb, make ready for the Bridegroom.

4 Pray unto the Lord, call upon his holy name, make known his wonderful works among the people.

5 Call upon the Lord, that his kingdom may go forth upon the earth, that the inhabitants thereof may receive it, and be prepared for the days to come, in the which the Son of Man shall come down in heaven, clothed in the brightness of his glory, to meet the kingdom of God which is set up on the earth.

6 Wherefore, may the kingdom of God go forth, that the kingdom of heaven may come, that thou, O God, mayest be glorified in heaven so on earth, that thine enemies may be subdued; for thine is the honor, power and glory, forever and ever. Amen.
Last edited by Mark on August 14th, 2020, 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by John Tavner »

Mark wrote: August 14th, 2020, 3:47 pm
simpleton wrote: August 14th, 2020, 12:43 pm
Mark wrote: August 14th, 2020, 12:19 pm
gangbusters wrote: August 14th, 2020, 9:42 am

The most compelling thing you quoted are the words of President Benson. It certainly sounds like we are, as a whole, under that condemnation.
Do not get taken in by the sophistry being used here to slander the church and its leadership. People on this board use Pres. Benson when it suits their purposes such as his call to repentance for treating the BOM lightly but they ignore what he subsequently testified of After his talk on the BOM as it pertains to the importance of this latter day work in building the Kingdom of God on earth. He did NOT believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints would fall into a state of apostasy as has been said ad nausea here by the likes of Spirit and many other church antagonists. On the contrary he continued to testify of the divine directive given To the church to prepare the way for the coming of the Lord back to the earth. I will point you to the final talk He personally delivered in GC in Oct 1988 Titled “I Testify”. I will post the talk. It is a powerful testimony of a Prophet of the Lord. I will quote a few parts of the talk to remind everyone what the Prophet actually thought. It sure isnt what has been said here time and again by those who attack the church and claim its downfall.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

“I testify that there has been, and there is now, and there will be legal successors to the Prophet Joseph Smith who hold the keys of the kingdom of God on earth, even the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (See D&C 21:1–7; D&C 107:91–92; D&C 112:15.) He receives revelation from God to direct His kingdom. Associated with him are others who are prophets, seers, and revelators, even those who make up the presiding quorums of the Church, namely the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. (See D&C 112:30.)“

“I testify that the church and kingdom of God is increasing in strength. Its numbers are growing, as is the faithfulness of its faithful members. It has never been better organized or equipped to perform its divine mission.“

“I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil. As these conflicts rage, either secretly or openly, the righteous will be tested. God’s wrath will soon shake the nations of the earth and will be poured out on the wicked without measure. (See JS—H 1:45; D&C 1:9.) But God will provide strength for the righteous and the means of escape; and eventually and finally truth will triumph. (See 1 Ne. 22:15–23.)“

“I testify that it is time for every man to set in order his own house both temporally and spiritually. It is time for the unbeliever to learn for himself that this work is true, that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom which Daniel prophesied God would set up in the latter days, never to be destroyed, a stone that would eventually fill the whole earth and stand forever. (See Dan. 2:34–45; D&C 65:2.) It is time for us, as members of the Church, to walk in all the ways of the Lord, to use our influence to make popular that which is sound and to make unpopular that which is unsound. We have the scriptures, the prophets, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Now we need eyes that will see, ears that will hear, and hearts that will hearken to God’s direction.“
Well here I go again with the criticizing, but the church is not the Kingdom of God, period.
They are two separate organizations.
Wow I guess the Lord didn't understand that either in His revelation given thru the Prophet Joseph Smith in Section 65. Which church provides all mankind with the principles of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ? Which church did the Lord say was the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth? What did the Lord name His church in section 115? Did Joseph just make all this up?

SECTION 65

Revelation on prayer given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Hiram, Ohio, October 30, 1831.

1–2, The keys of the kingdom of God are committed to man on earth, and the gospel cause will triumph; 3–6, The millennial kingdom of heaven will come and join the kingdom of God on earth.

1 Hearken, and lo, a voice as of one sent down from on high, who is mighty and powerful, whose going forth is unto the ends of the earth, yea, whose voice is unto men—Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

2 The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.

3 Yea, a voice crying—Prepare ye the way of the Lord, prepare ye the supper of the Lamb, make ready for the Bridegroom.

4 Pray unto the Lord, call upon his holy name, make known his wonderful works among the people.

5 Call upon the Lord, that his kingdom may go forth upon the earth, that the inhabitants thereof may receive it, and be prepared for the days to come, in the which the Son of Man shall come down in heaven, clothed in the brightness of his glory, to meet the kingdom of God which is set up on the earth.

6 Wherefore, may the kingdom of God go forth, that the kingdom of heaven may come, that thou, O God, mayest be glorified in heaven so on earth, that thine enemies may be subdued; for thine is the honor, power and glory, forever and ever. Amen.
He was using scripture to teach people that knew the bible. The Kingdom of God is not meat or drink, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the HOly SPirit. Romans 14:17 In other words teaching hte fullness of the gospel will bring forth righteousness, peace, and joy in the holy Ghost

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topcat
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Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by topcat »

We in the LDS Church collectively are a bunch of cult members following a man, or group of men --- the Brethren.

I was just walking through the yard to feed my pigs a few minutes ago, and realized that the Brethren and the President of the church, President Nelson, offer absolutely nothing from the Lord, but collectively we still pay attention to them as if they are offering something from the Lord.

I mean, when have ANY of the Brethren said, "thus saith the Lord" in whatever vernacular you want to phrase that statement?

To our own damnation, we in the Church have conflated the Lord with the Brethren, so that we believe that when they speak they are speaking for the Lord even though they don't even claim, "thus saith the Lord"!

It's OUR fault. We give the Brethren a free pass. We elevate them to the stature of the Lord in that we believe that they speak the mind and will of Jesus Christ, even though they never say, "thus saith the Lord".

Yes, they pretend and they posture and they do their best to effectively wear the sheep's costume, there's no doubt about that, but they never give any real fruit that would indicate that the Lord has commanded them to share a message. They never share a message from the Lord. It's only a message from a man when they talk. They take the Lord's name in vain, to satisfy their vain ambitions and gratify their pride, when they purport and pretend to be His agent.

President Nelson prophetic? Profitable definitely. Over $100B worth of "prophet". Lol.

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Luke
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Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by Luke »

topcat wrote: August 14th, 2020, 4:17 pm We in the LDS Church collectively are a bunch of cult members following a man, or group of men --- the Brethren.

I was just walking through the yard to feed my pigs a few minutes ago, and realized that the Brethren and the President of the church, President Nelson, offer absolutely nothing from the Lord, but collectively we still pay attention to them as if they are offering something from the Lord.

I mean, when have ANY of the Brethren said, "thus saith the Lord" in whatever vernacular you want to phrase that statement?

To our own damnation, we in the Church have conflated the Lord with the Brethren, so that we believe that when they speak they are speaking for the Lord even though they don't even claim, "thus saith the Lord"!

It's OUR fault. We give the Brethren a free pass. We elevate them to the stature of the Lord in that we believe that they speak the mind and will of Jesus Christ, even though they never say, "thus saith the Lord".

Yes, they pretend and they posture and they do their best to effectively wear the sheep's costume, there's no doubt about that, but they never give any real fruit that would indicate that the Lord has commanded them to share a message. They never share a message from the Lord. It's only a message from a man when they talk. They take the Lord's name in vain, to satisfy their vain ambitions and gratify their pride, when they purport and pretend to be His agent.

President Nelson prophetic? Profitable definitely. Over $100B worth of "prophet". Lol.
This is very true but have some charity brother

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SPIRIT
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Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by SPIRIT »

Luke wrote: August 14th, 2020, 5:02 pm
topcat wrote: August 14th, 2020, 4:17 pm We in the LDS Church collectively are a bunch of cult members following a man, or group of men --- the Brethren.

I was just walking through the yard to feed my pigs a few minutes ago, and realized that the Brethren and the President of the church, President Nelson, offer absolutely nothing from the Lord, but collectively we still pay attention to them as if they are offering something from the Lord.

I mean, when have ANY of the Brethren said, "thus saith the Lord" in whatever vernacular you want to phrase that statement?

To our own damnation, we in the Church have conflated the Lord with the Brethren, so that we believe that when they speak they are speaking for the Lord even though they don't even claim, "thus saith the Lord"!

It's OUR fault. We give the Brethren a free pass. We elevate them to the stature of the Lord in that we believe that they speak the mind and will of Jesus Christ, even though they never say, "thus saith the Lord".

Yes, they pretend and they posture and they do their best to effectively wear the sheep's costume, there's no doubt about that, but they never give any real fruit that would indicate that the Lord has commanded them to share a message. They never share a message from the Lord. It's only a message from a man when they talk. They take the Lord's name in vain, to satisfy their vain ambitions and gratify their pride, when they purport and pretend to be His agent.

President Nelson prophetic? Profitable definitely. Over $100B worth of "prophet". Lol.
This is very true but have some charity brother
I do understand what you're saying brother;
there's nothing greater than love and charity.
But what of truth and justice ? - we as a church being called out for our apostasy.
it's obvious to anyone that reads the scriptures, that the church is "OUT OF ORDER" and in apostasy.
( so what good is it - to have "one mighty and strong" that is to come
"to "SET IN ORDER" the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found...."
D&C 85:7
If everyone just sits around *** pacifying and patting each other on the back all the time,
thinking "all is well in Zion" - there's no need to repent as a church and people, and change at all.

don't you think that there needs to come a time where members have to wake up from their deep sleep *****
before it's too late, and start reading the scriptures and seeing the real truth of what the scriptures are saying,
and stop thinking that "all is well in Zion" and in the church, and realize that the warnings for the Gentiles
in the Book of Mormon are for them - and come to realize their awful situation.

"that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation"
Ether 8

***** O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea,
even from the sleep of hell,
and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound,
which are the chains which bind
the children of men, that they are carried away captive down
to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.
2 Nephi 1:13


*** 21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say:
All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—
and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!
2 Nephi 28

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Luke
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Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by Luke »

SPIRIT wrote: August 14th, 2020, 6:14 pm
Luke wrote: August 14th, 2020, 5:02 pm
topcat wrote: August 14th, 2020, 4:17 pm We in the LDS Church collectively are a bunch of cult members following a man, or group of men --- the Brethren.

I was just walking through the yard to feed my pigs a few minutes ago, and realized that the Brethren and the President of the church, President Nelson, offer absolutely nothing from the Lord, but collectively we still pay attention to them as if they are offering something from the Lord.

I mean, when have ANY of the Brethren said, "thus saith the Lord" in whatever vernacular you want to phrase that statement?

To our own damnation, we in the Church have conflated the Lord with the Brethren, so that we believe that when they speak they are speaking for the Lord even though they don't even claim, "thus saith the Lord"!

It's OUR fault. We give the Brethren a free pass. We elevate them to the stature of the Lord in that we believe that they speak the mind and will of Jesus Christ, even though they never say, "thus saith the Lord".

Yes, they pretend and they posture and they do their best to effectively wear the sheep's costume, there's no doubt about that, but they never give any real fruit that would indicate that the Lord has commanded them to share a message. They never share a message from the Lord. It's only a message from a man when they talk. They take the Lord's name in vain, to satisfy their vain ambitions and gratify their pride, when they purport and pretend to be His agent.

President Nelson prophetic? Profitable definitely. Over $100B worth of "prophet". Lol.
This is very true but have some charity brother
I do understand what you're saying brother;
there's nothing greater than love and charity.
But what of truth and justice ? - we as a church being called out for our apostasy.
it's obvious to anyone that reads the scriptures, that the church is "OUT OF ORDER" and in apostasy.
( so what good is it - to have "one mighty and strong" that is to come
"to "SET IN ORDER" the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found...."
D&C 85:7
If everyone just sits around *** pacifying and patting each other on the back all the time,
thinking "all is well in Zion" - there's no need to repent as a church and people, and change at all.

don't you think that there needs to come a time where members have to wake up from their deep sleep *****
before it's too late, and start reading the scriptures and seeing the real truth of what the scriptures are saying,
and stop thinking that "all is well in Zion" and in the church, and realize that the warnings for the Gentiles
in the Book of Mormon are for them - and come to realize their awful situation.

"that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation"
Ether 8

***** O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea,
even from the sleep of hell,
and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound,
which are the chains which bind
the children of men, that they are carried away captive down
to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.
2 Nephi 1:13


*** 21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say:
All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—
and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!
2 Nephi 28
Yeah I totally understand you, I’ve spent months on here trying to convince people of the apostasy

What I’m saying is let’s show others the apostasy in a spirit of love and charity

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Luke
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Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by Luke »

Even Michael the Archangel when contending with the devil did not bring a railing accusation, but just rebuked him...

abijah`
~dog days~
Posts: 3481

Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by abijah` »

Luke wrote: August 14th, 2020, 11:39 pm Even Michael the Archangel when contending with the devil did not bring a railing accusation, but just rebuked him...
no, rather he said "the lord rebuke you" - the precise opposite attitude from all the masturbatory rantings and ravings against the church and the brethren on this forum

and even if the church is in apostasy - whats the purpose of complaining insistently about it? will murmuring do anything about it? what do these people hope to accomplish? do they think themselves as valiant speakers of truth to power or something, as if that has some place in god's structure and framework?

even if our prophets are corrupt, should we expect some great reward for calling them out? has god ever even once smiled upon some down--->top attempts to reform his house as if it were some telestial organisation where correction comes from the bottom?

too many people acting as though they were "the lord", as if its their job to do the rebuking and the setting in order.

there is no honour or reward in heaven for speaking against the lord's anointed, even if they have fallen.

saul fell. and david waited patiently for the lord to come and set things right in the proper time and fashion.

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Luke
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Location: England

Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by Luke »

abijah` wrote: August 14th, 2020, 11:49 pm no, rather he said "the lord rebuke you"
Yes, I knew that but that wasn’t my point

My point is the same as yours however, that there’s no point in ranting and raving 24/7, what we need to do is have oil in our lamps and patiently wait for the Lord to perform His “strange act”

Thanks for making the Scripture more clear brother

abijah`
~dog days~
Posts: 3481

Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by abijah` »

Luke wrote: August 15th, 2020, 12:02 amMy point is the same as yours however, that there’s no point in ranting and raving 24/7, what we need to do is have oil in our lamps and patiently wait for the Lord to perform His “strange act”
agreed

for me personally, i dont see the apostles as even being ours to criticise. to think that they are is to make oneself as Christ. they are his to bless or his to condemn, and who would try and act like they have some right to usurp his authority or think themselves worthy to sit in his judgement seat? he can steady his own ark.

edit: and i don't even think they are apostate. judgement should be reserved by him who knows all things. fact is, none of us actually know what the full situation is, even though some think they do. better to hold one's peace than pass judgement on innocent men only to find out later that they were only doing what the lord commanded them.

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Robin Hood
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Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by Robin Hood »

topcat wrote: August 14th, 2020, 4:17 pm We in the LDS Church collectively are a bunch of cult members following a man, or group of men --- the Brethren.

I was just walking through the yard to feed my pigs a few minutes ago, and realized that the Brethren and the President of the church, President Nelson, offer absolutely nothing from the Lord, but collectively we still pay attention to them as if they are offering something from the Lord.

I mean, when have ANY of the Brethren said, "thus saith the Lord" in whatever vernacular you want to phrase that statement?

To our own damnation, we in the Church have conflated the Lord with the Brethren, so that we believe that when they speak they are speaking for the Lord even though they don't even claim, "thus saith the Lord"!

It's OUR fault. We give the Brethren a free pass. We elevate them to the stature of the Lord in that we believe that they speak the mind and will of Jesus Christ, even though they never say, "thus saith the Lord".

Yes, they pretend and they posture and they do their best to effectively wear the sheep's costume, there's no doubt about that, but they never give any real fruit that would indicate that the Lord has commanded them to share a message. They never share a message from the Lord. It's only a message from a man when they talk. They take the Lord's name in vain, to satisfy their vain ambitions and gratify their pride, when they purport and pretend to be His agent.

President Nelson prophetic? Profitable definitely. Over $100B worth of "prophet". Lol.
We expect too much from them.
Chronologically the very last canonised "thus saith the Lord" revelation is D&C 136. The last two verses tell us there won't be anymore revelations of that sort.
"You have received the kingdon... so (meaning as a consequence of such) no more at present. Amen and amen."

Think of the parable of the talents.

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SPIRIT
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Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by SPIRIT »

abijah` wrote: August 14th, 2020, 11:49 pm
Luke wrote: August 14th, 2020, 11:39 pm Even Michael the Archangel when contending with the devil did not bring a railing accusation, but just rebuked him...
no, rather he said "the lord rebuke you" - the precise opposite attitude from all the masturbatory rantings and ravings against the church and the brethren on this forum

and even if the church is in apostasy - whats the purpose of complaining insistently about it? will murmuring do anything about it? what do these people hope to accomplish? do they think themselves as valiant speakers of truth to power or something, as if that has some place in god's structure and framework?

even if our prophets are corrupt, should we expect some great reward for calling them out? has god ever even once smiled upon some down--->top attempts to reform his house as if it were some telestial organisation where correction comes from the bottom?

too many people acting as though they were "the lord", as if its their job to do the rebuking and the setting in order.

there is no honour or reward in heaven for speaking against the lord's anointed, even if they have fallen.

saul fell. and david waited patiently for the lord to come and set things right in the proper time and fashion.
you know, I really have to shake my head sometimes and wonder what spirit some members could possibly be following
when they continue to fight against members and don't want to accept the scriptures that are showing our apostasy
and that are warnings for us as Gentiles.

"great reward"
who's expecting some great reward - just for quoting the word of God - showing the truth of what the scriptures are saying.
and THEY'RE NOT THE LORD'S ANOINTED - if they have fallen, now are they.

"complaining about it"
it's not complaining at all.
when you're trying to get members to see the truth of what the scriptures are actually saying,
and to see the truth of what the church has become.
It's all in the scriptures, and right in front of their eyes,
but members don't care about the scriptures and what they say,
and the warnings to us as Gentiles. They want to stay in a state of blindness; like the scriptures say,
and in their little comfort zone believing "all is well in Zion" ;
even though the scriptures have repeatedly given warnings to us, and prophesy of it, they could never believe and accept
the truth of our apostasy, because they want to believe what they want to believe, and believe it's the truth. when it's not.
“People say they love truth, but in reality they want to believe that which they love is true.”
they're so concerned spending all their time caring more about following the prophet,
and what they think and believe to be truth - voicing their opinions based on their feelings,
than they do caring about what the scriptures and the words of Christ actually say.

and what's so ironic is that members like you are the ones "complaining about it".
in your own words :
"whats the purpose of complaining insistently about it? will murmuring do anything about it?
what do these people hope to accomplish?"

so stop complaining ! about those like me that are only trying to show members what the scriptures are saying,
and complaining and murmuring against me and the scriptures, and just accept them and heed their warnings.


quote

Elder H. Verlan Andersen, who would later serve in the First Quorum of the Seventy, made the following observation:

HISTORY WARNS THAT APOSTASY MUST BE EXPECTED

"Religious history testifies that, with the single exception of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch,
“No people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants for more than a few generations. Time after time the Lord has established His Church among a group who have lived His commandments for a few years and then fallen away, thus bringing upon themselves His judgments. This cycle of human folly, which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity, that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their own apostasy is certain, and the only question about it is how long it will take. . . . The fact that the Lord has found it necessary to restore His gospel so many times is in itself evidence of the regularity with which apostasy has occurred, because the only thing which will cause the destruction of His Church is the wickedness of its members."

"Some may assume that a “Gentile apostasy” in these latter days cannot occur because Christ’s Church is here to stay this time. They may assume that widespread departure from gospel principles by Church members is contrary to prophecy. While the scriptures do assure us that the Church will continue to exist and be divinely led by prophets of the Lord right up until his Second Coming, they do not state that all, or even a majority of its members will follow those prophets. On the contrary, they foretell extensive, and in some cases, almost total defection from true principles. For example in Chapter 2 herein, we noted the Lord’s prophecy that only one half of that small group he calls “virgins” will avoid being deceived and destroyed. Let us consider other scriptures which discuss this problem."

PROPHECIES REGARDING APOSTASY IN THESE LATTER DAYS

The Book of Mormon contains many predictions of a falling away among the “Gentiles” in the latter days. While the non-Jewish, non-Lamanite members of Christ’s Church may not call themselves Gentiles, the Book of Mormon prophets did. This is clearly shown by the title page of the Nephite scripture which states in the following passage that this book will come forth “by way of the Gentile:”

Wherefore, it is an abridgement of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile…to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—… (See also D&C 20:9)

Christ also used the name “Gentile” to identify those through whom the gospel would go to the Lamanites. (3 Nephi 21:2–4)
If Church members from Gentile nations will bear in mind that the term “Gentile” when used in the Book of Mormon includes them,
the prophecies therein will have much greater meaning and be more disturbing.

Some of the predictions clearly refer to members of Christ’s Church. Consider, for example, the following statement which is found among Nephi’s comments regarding latter-day conditions:

They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men. (2 Nephi 28:14)

Even one who considers himself a “humble follower of Christ” is here warned that he will err “in many instances” because he is “taught by the precepts of men.”

Christ levelled His own charge that iniquity would prevail among Gentile members of His Church in the last days in these words:

At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel… and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations… (3 Nephi 16:10)

That He was referring to members of His Church in this passage is evident not only from the fact that He states that the Gentiles
will sin against His gospel, but also in discussing the possibility of their failing to repent, He refers to them as the “Salt of the earth:”

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39–40)


There are two other instances of record wherein the Lord told the Nephites that unless the Gentiles repented, they would be trodden down and torn in pieces. (3 Nephi 20:16, 21:12-14) Mormon, who had witnessed the Lamanites exterminate his own people, used almost the same words as did Christ in the quotations referred to above, in predicting the destruction of the unrepentant Gentiles by a remnant of the house of Jacob:

And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?

Therefore, repent ye, and humble yourselves before him lest he shall come out in justice against you—lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver.
(Mormon 5:22, 24)

Then we have the following words of Moroni which state that the Gentiles would become so wicked that unless they repented they would be destroyed:

And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done. (Ether 2:11)

It should be emphasized that the above quoted statements are not merely warnings against iniquity but they are prophecies also.
In the clearest of language, they predict that the Gentiles will become so wicked that unless repentance occurs we will be destroyed. Or, as the last scripture quoted states it, our iniquities will become so great that if we “continue” in them, we will be swept off as were our predecessors."
Last edited by SPIRIT on August 16th, 2020, 8:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Robin Hood
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Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by Robin Hood »

SPIRIT wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:53 am
abijah` wrote: August 14th, 2020, 11:49 pm
Luke wrote: August 14th, 2020, 11:39 pm Even Michael the Archangel when contending with the devil did not bring a railing accusation, but just rebuked him...
no, rather he said "the lord rebuke you" - the precise opposite attitude from all the masturbatory rantings and ravings against the church and the brethren on this forum

and even if the church is in apostasy - whats the purpose of complaining insistently about it? will murmuring do anything about it? what do these people hope to accomplish? do they think themselves as valiant speakers of truth to power or something, as if that has some place in god's structure and framework?

even if our prophets are corrupt, should we expect some great reward for calling them out? has god ever even once smiled upon some down--->top attempts to reform his house as if it were some telestial organisation where correction comes from the bottom?

too many people acting as though they were "the lord", as if its their job to do the rebuking and the setting in order.

there is no honour or reward in heaven for speaking against the lord's anointed, even if they have fallen.

saul fell. and david waited patiently for the lord to come and set things right in the proper time and fashion.
you know, I really have to shake my head sometimes and wonder what spirit some members could possibly be following
when they continue to fight against members and don't want to accept the scriptures they are showing
that are warnings for us as Gentiles.

"great reward"
who's expecting some great reward - just for quoting the word of God - showing the truth of what the scriptures are saying.
and THEY'RE NOT THE LORD'S ANOINTED - if they have fallen, no are they.

"complaining about it"
it's not complaining at all.
when you're trying to get members to see the truth of what the scriptures are actually saying,
and to see the truth of what the church has become.
It's all in the scriptures, and right in front of their eyes,
but members don't care about the scriptures and what they say,
and the warnings to us as Gentiles. They want to stay in a state of blindness; like the scriptures say,
and in their little comfort zone believing "all is well in Zion" ;
even though the scriptures have repeatedly given warnings to us, and prophesy of it, they could never believe and accept
the truth of our apostasy, because they want to believe what they want to believe, and believe it's the truth. when it's not.
“People say they love truth, but in reality they want to believe that which they love is true.”
they're so concerned spending all their time caring more about following the prophet,
and what they think and believe to be truth - voicing their opinions based on their feelings,
than they do caring about what the scriptures and the words of Christ actually say.

and what's so ironic is that members like you are the ones "complaining about it".
in your own words :
"whats the purpose of complaining insistently about it? will murmuring do anything about it?
what do these people hope to accomplish?"

so stop complaining ! about those like me that are only trying to show members what the scriptures are saying,
and complaining and murmuring against me and the scriptures, and just accept them and heed their warnings.


quote

Elder H. Verlan Andersen, who would later serve in the First Quorum of the Seventy, made the following observation:

HISTORY WARNS THAT APOSTASY MUST BE EXPECTED

"Religious history testifies that, with the single exception of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch,
“No people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants for more than a few generations. Time after time the Lord has established His Church among a group who have lived His commandments for a few years and then fallen away, thus bringing upon themselves His judgments. This cycle of human folly, which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity, that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their own apostasy is certain, and the only question about it is how long it will take. . . . The fact that the Lord has found it necessary to restore His gospel so many times is in itself evidence of the regularity with which apostasy has occurred, because the only thing which will cause the destruction of His Church is the wickedness of its members."

"Some may assume that a “Gentile apostasy” in these latter days cannot occur because Christ’s Church is here to stay this time. They may assume that widespread departure from gospel principles by Church members is contrary to prophecy. While the scriptures do assure us that the Church will continue to exist and be divinely led by prophets of the Lord right up until his Second Coming, they do not state that all, or even a majority of its members will follow those prophets. On the contrary, they foretell extensive, and in some cases, almost total defection from true principles. For example in Chapter 2 herein, we noted the Lord’s prophecy that only one half of that small group he calls “virgins” will avoid being deceived and destroyed. Let us consider other scriptures which discuss this problem."

PROPHECIES REGARDING APOSTASY IN THESE LATTER DAYS

The Book of Mormon contains many predictions of a falling away among the “Gentiles” in the latter days. While the non-Jewish, non-Lamanite members of Christ’s Church may not call themselves Gentiles, the Book of Mormon prophets did. This is clearly shown by the title page of the Nephite scripture which states in the following passage that this book will come forth “by way of the Gentile:”

Wherefore, it is an abridgement of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile…to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—… (See also D&C 20:9)

Christ also used the name “Gentile” to identify those through whom the gospel would go to the Lamanites. (3 Nephi 21:2–4)
If Church members from Gentile nations will bear in mind that the term “Gentile” when used in the Book of Mormon includes them,
the prophecies therein will have much greater meaning and be more disturbing.

Some of the predictions clearly refer to members of Christ’s Church. Consider, for example, the following statement which is found among Nephi’s comments regarding latter-day conditions:

They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men. (2 Nephi 28:14)

Even one who considers himself a “humble follower of Christ” is here warned that he will err “in many instances” because he is “taught by the precepts of men.”

Christ levelled His own charge that iniquity would prevail among Gentile members of His Church in the last days in these words:

At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel… and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations… (3 Nephi 16:10)

That He was referring to members of His Church in this passage is evident not only from the fact that He states that the Gentiles
will sin against His gospel, but also in discussing the possibility of their failing to repent, He refers to them as the “Salt of the earth:”

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39–40)


There are two other instances of record wherein the Lord told the Nephites that unless the Gentiles repented, they would be trodden down and torn in pieces. (3 Nephi 20:16, 21:12-14) Mormon, who had witnessed the Lamanites exterminate his own people, used almost the same words as did Christ in the quotations referred to above, in predicting the destruction of the unrepentant Gentiles by a remnant of the house of Jacob:

And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?

Therefore, repent ye, and humble yourselves before him lest he shall come out in justice against you—lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver.
(Mormon 5:22, 24)

Then we have the following words of Moroni which state that the Gentiles would become so wicked that unless they repented they would be destroyed:

And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done. (Ether 2:11)

It should be emphasized that the above quoted statements are not merely warnings against iniquity but they are prophecies also.
In the clearest of language, they predict that the Gentiles will become so wicked that unless repentance occurs we will be destroyed. Or, as the last scripture quoted states it, our iniquities will become so great that if we “continue” in them, we will be swept off as were our predecessors."
So SPIRIT, who are these prophets Elder H Verlan Andersen says will lead the church right up until the Second Coming, in your quoted text?

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SPIRIT
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Location: Kolob

Re: President Nelson - Prophetic !

Post by SPIRIT »

Robin Hood wrote: August 15th, 2020, 9:05 am
SPIRIT wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:53 am
abijah` wrote: August 14th, 2020, 11:49 pm
Luke wrote: August 14th, 2020, 11:39 pm Even Michael the Archangel when contending with the devil did not bring a railing accusation, but just rebuked him...
no, rather he said "the lord rebuke you" - the precise opposite attitude from all the masturbatory rantings and ravings against the church and the brethren on this forum

and even if the church is in apostasy - whats the purpose of complaining insistently about it? will murmuring do anything about it? what do these people hope to accomplish? do they think themselves as valiant speakers of truth to power or something, as if that has some place in god's structure and framework?

even if our prophets are corrupt, should we expect some great reward for calling them out? has god ever even once smiled upon some down--->top attempts to reform his house as if it were some telestial organisation where correction comes from the bottom?

too many people acting as though they were "the lord", as if its their job to do the rebuking and the setting in order.

there is no honour or reward in heaven for speaking against the lord's anointed, even if they have fallen.

saul fell. and david waited patiently for the lord to come and set things right in the proper time and fashion.
you know, I really have to shake my head sometimes and wonder what spirit some members could possibly be following
when they continue to fight against members and don't want to accept the scriptures they are showing
that are warnings for us as Gentiles.

"great reward"
who's expecting some great reward - just for quoting the word of God - showing the truth of what the scriptures are saying.
and THEY'RE NOT THE LORD'S ANOINTED - if they have fallen, no are they.

"complaining about it"
it's not complaining at all.
when you're trying to get members to see the truth of what the scriptures are actually saying,
and to see the truth of what the church has become.
It's all in the scriptures, and right in front of their eyes,
but members don't care about the scriptures and what they say,
and the warnings to us as Gentiles. They want to stay in a state of blindness; like the scriptures say,
and in their little comfort zone believing "all is well in Zion" ;
even though the scriptures have repeatedly given warnings to us, and prophesy of it, they could never believe and accept
the truth of our apostasy, because they want to believe what they want to believe, and believe it's the truth. when it's not.
“People say they love truth, but in reality they want to believe that which they love is true.”
they're so concerned spending all their time caring more about following the prophet,
and what they think and believe to be truth - voicing their opinions based on their feelings,
than they do caring about what the scriptures and the words of Christ actually say.

and what's so ironic is that members like you are the ones "complaining about it".
in your own words :
"whats the purpose of complaining insistently about it? will murmuring do anything about it?
what do these people hope to accomplish?"

so stop complaining ! about those like me that are only trying to show members what the scriptures are saying,
and complaining and murmuring against me and the scriptures, and just accept them and heed their warnings.


quote

Elder H. Verlan Andersen, who would later serve in the First Quorum of the Seventy, made the following observation:

HISTORY WARNS THAT APOSTASY MUST BE EXPECTED

"Religious history testifies that, with the single exception of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch,
“No people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants for more than a few generations. Time after time the Lord has established His Church among a group who have lived His commandments for a few years and then fallen away, thus bringing upon themselves His judgments. This cycle of human folly, which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity, that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their own apostasy is certain, and the only question about it is how long it will take. . . . The fact that the Lord has found it necessary to restore His gospel so many times is in itself evidence of the regularity with which apostasy has occurred, because the only thing which will cause the destruction of His Church is the wickedness of its members."

"Some may assume that a “Gentile apostasy” in these latter days cannot occur because Christ’s Church is here to stay this time. They may assume that widespread departure from gospel principles by Church members is contrary to prophecy. While the scriptures do assure us that the Church will continue to exist and be divinely led by prophets of the Lord right up until his Second Coming, they do not state that all, or even a majority of its members will follow those prophets. On the contrary, they foretell extensive, and in some cases, almost total defection from true principles. For example in Chapter 2 herein, we noted the Lord’s prophecy that only one half of that small group he calls “virgins” will avoid being deceived and destroyed. Let us consider other scriptures which discuss this problem."

PROPHECIES REGARDING APOSTASY IN THESE LATTER DAYS

The Book of Mormon contains many predictions of a falling away among the “Gentiles” in the latter days. While the non-Jewish, non-Lamanite members of Christ’s Church may not call themselves Gentiles, the Book of Mormon prophets did. This is clearly shown by the title page of the Nephite scripture which states in the following passage that this book will come forth “by way of the Gentile:”

Wherefore, it is an abridgement of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile…to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—… (See also D&C 20:9)

Christ also used the name “Gentile” to identify those through whom the gospel would go to the Lamanites. (3 Nephi 21:2–4)
If Church members from Gentile nations will bear in mind that the term “Gentile” when used in the Book of Mormon includes them,
the prophecies therein will have much greater meaning and be more disturbing.

Some of the predictions clearly refer to members of Christ’s Church. Consider, for example, the following statement which is found among Nephi’s comments regarding latter-day conditions:

They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men. (2 Nephi 28:14)

Even one who considers himself a “humble follower of Christ” is here warned that he will err “in many instances” because he is “taught by the precepts of men.”

Christ levelled His own charge that iniquity would prevail among Gentile members of His Church in the last days in these words:

At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel… and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations… (3 Nephi 16:10)

That He was referring to members of His Church in this passage is evident not only from the fact that He states that the Gentiles
will sin against His gospel, but also in discussing the possibility of their failing to repent, He refers to them as the “Salt of the earth:”

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39–40)


There are two other instances of record wherein the Lord told the Nephites that unless the Gentiles repented, they would be trodden down and torn in pieces. (3 Nephi 20:16, 21:12-14) Mormon, who had witnessed the Lamanites exterminate his own people, used almost the same words as did Christ in the quotations referred to above, in predicting the destruction of the unrepentant Gentiles by a remnant of the house of Jacob:

And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?

Therefore, repent ye, and humble yourselves before him lest he shall come out in justice against you—lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver.
(Mormon 5:22, 24)

Then we have the following words of Moroni which state that the Gentiles would become so wicked that unless they repented they would be destroyed:

And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done. (Ether 2:11)

It should be emphasized that the above quoted statements are not merely warnings against iniquity but they are prophecies also.
In the clearest of language, they predict that the Gentiles will become so wicked that unless repentance occurs we will be destroyed. Or, as the last scripture quoted states it, our iniquities will become so great that if we “continue” in them, we will be swept off as were our predecessors."
So SPIRIT, who are these prophets Elder H Verlan Andersen says will lead the church right up until the Second Coming, in your quoted text?
so you do read my long posts - that's great !
glad you're paying so much attention to some of the things - the truths I post.
because, well, to quote you, and what you had said to me before -
"But do you think anyone actually reads these enormously long posts? I really do want to read what you have to say but sometimes it is more than a little daunting."

so I quote Elder Andersen because of what he says about apostasy and how he puts it,
and the scriptures he quotes about it.
What he said about the church being "led by prophets of the Lord right up until his Second Coming";
being a general authority, I don't think that he could of said anything contrary to that.
Personally, in my studies of the scriptures, I know this to be not true.
The scriptures show that our church is in apostasy, and the " Drunkards of Ephraim" (church leaders)
will be hurled to the ground by the king of Assyria - as per Isaiah 28

Isaiah 28
14 Therefore hear the word of Jehovah, you scoffers who preside over these people in Jerusalem.
15 You have supposed, by taking refuge in deception and hiding behind falsehoods, to have covenanted with Death, or reached an understanding with Sheol, that, should a flooding scourge sweep through the earth, it shall not reach you.

By seeking “refuge in deception” instead of in Jehovah (Isaiah 4:6; 25:4), and by “hiding behind falsehoods” instead of acknowledging the truth (Isaiah 9:15; 32:6), Ephraim’s leaders rely on their own counsel as epitomized by a “Covenant with Death.” Such a policy leads to death at the hands of Jehovah’s agent of death, the king of Assyria/Babylon, in Jehovah’s Day of Judgment.
Having turned into scoffers of Jehovah’s word, they think to escape the “flooding scourge”—the power of the archtyrant (v 2).
Rejecting Jehovah’s Covenant of Life (Isaiah 55:3), they end up in Sheol—Hell or the underworld.

18 Your covenant with Death shall prove void, your understanding with Sheol have no effect: when the flooding scourge sweeps through, you shall be overrun by it.
19 As often as it sweeps through, you shall be seized by it: morning after morning it shall sweep through,
by day and by night it shall seize you; it shall cause terror merely to hear word of it.

The façade the leaders of Jehovah’s people maintain that hides their Covenant with Death (v 15) is swept away in Jehovah’s Day of Judgment when the king of Assyria/Babylon—the scourge of the wicked—overruns their Promised Land.
Those unprepared to receive Jehovah’s new revelation (v 16; Isaiah 42:9; 48:6-8)—because they have mistaken the old or taken it lightly (Isaiah 41:26-29; 50:10-11)—face a protracted period of Jehovah’s justice.
In the pattern of ancient Assyria’s and Babylon’s destructions of Jehovah’s people and their lands, his people’s apostasy triggers Jehovah’s Day of Judgment.


2 My Lord has in store one mighty and strong: as a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down,
or like an inundating deluge of mighty waters, he will hurl them to the ground by his hand.


The imagery of “a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down” and of “an inundating deluge of mighty waters” identifies the king of Assyria/Babylon and his alliance of aggressor nations (Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 18:2).
A second “one mighty and strong” in the Book of Isaiah is Jehovah’s servant, who makes an end of him at the last.
Although Jehovah provides a refuge for a repentant remnant of his people against the storms of their enemies (Isaiah 4:6; 25:4-5; 57:13),
he empowers the archtyrant—Jehovah’s (left) hand—over “the drunkards of Ephraim” to cast their illustriousness to the ground
(cf. vv 1, 3).


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