Has Anyone Seen Pres Nelson Lately?

[SPIRIT]

Genuinely wondering if LDS Freedom Forum is an apostate group? I haven't been here for awhile and it appears people are very critical of the church and its leaders.

wonder why

sure I'm an apostate; (so is the Lord ) -
from a church that's in apostasy.
Why should I be a part of something that has become corrupted;
The Lord isn't,
so why should I.

[largerthanlife]

https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... nar-187910

President Nelson spoke to the new mission leaders on June 26th.

[SPIRIT]

Aug. 2020



WHY LEADERS ARE QUIET ABOUT THE END TIMES!!

Brother Richard Draper is a religion teacher at BYU

“Between now and the time we build Zion - we are vulnerable.”


Richard Draper is an authority on the Book of Revelations, and he answers these questions:
Why don’t church leaders speak out more and warn about the last days and what’s coming?

Why is there no show of strength by the Church?

Why is there so much evil?

Why is there no parting of the Red Sea, as it were, or the ten plagues?

Why is there no drying up of the heavens, or plagues under the administration of the prophet?

Why is it that the church leaders do not march forth in strong defense, rising up to condemn the nation like the prophets of old?

Where is the equivalent of the burden of Babylon, or the burden of Assyria, or the burden of Moab?

We are just not hearing about these things!

Why do the leaders sit quietly, doing the inner work of the kingdom - rather than battling for righteousness by buying prime time slots on TV, holding huge rallies, or shouting hellfire against the sin centers of the world? Even the missionaries are encouraged not to contend, but to preach with love.



Could it be that we are now in the one thousand two hundred and sixty days when the beast walks the land? Are we now in the time, times, and half-time, when the three and ½ years commence? Are we in the midst of the forty-two months? Could it be that evil really is supposed to have the upper hand, to do its work … almost unhindered (at least for the time being)? Is it really possible?



The Book of Revelation in the New Testament provides an answer. It shows us that the path of the church is not to actively fight against Babylon or to put her down. She is to grow fat and sassy and to grow ever more arrogant and strong; and to remain ignorant that the day of her destruction is not far distant.

Our job is to flee Babylon (repent); gather Israel through the preaching of the gospel; perfect the Saints; redeem the dead; and build Zion.

The church does not have the resources to fight against principles, institutions, or people. Every ounce of energy (financial and human) must be used for people, for morality, for goodness—not for actively opposing Babylon. In the Book of Revelations, neither the 144,000 nor the Saints take part in any opposition against Babylon, the dragon, the beast, or false prophets. The Saints are absent from all battlefields. The 144,000 are engaged only in the gathering of those of Israel who will come to the Church of the Firstborn. The only task that The Book of Revelation assigns to the Saints is to worship God and not the beast; to endure in faith; maintain virtue; to withstand persecution; and to preach the gospel of God.

Evil really does have to have its day! Therefore, the church, for the present, is in a kind of isolation mode—concerned mostly with itself and internal affairs, strengthening its doctrinal and theological foundation—adding to its membership all who will come, and leaving the rest of the world to build that part of hell in which they will soon fall.

Yes, evil really has to have its day. This world is experiencing the stage on which the cosmos will be able to see the self-destructive nature of unrighteousness. Wickedness is going to come down! It is wickedness that is going to bring wickedness down. (The prophet won’t need to do it—the wicked will bring it on themselves.) The cosmos is going to be able to see that. And just at the point where everyone has learned this lesson…then God is going to step in and save the world.”

God laid out the plan for this world before it was created, and Jesus Christ is carrying out that plan in flawless detail. The Prophet and Apostles today are doing their part in carrying out that plan just as it was designed by God.

We have been warned. We are now being tested to see if we will be obedient to the Prophet.
God’s plan is working. The question is - ARE WE ON BOARD WITH HIS PLAN?

what ridiculous excuses.
"WHY LEADERS ARE QUIET ABOUT THE END TIMES!! "

simply put - because they don't receive revelation.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54782&p=1024195&hil ... o#p1024195
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1037704&hil ... h#p1037704

And are watchmen that don't watch and warn - dumb watchdogs as Isaiah calls them.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1036624&hil ... n#p1036624


Isaiah 5

13 Therefore are my people exiled without knowing why; their best men die of famine,
their masses perish with thirst.

Without divine revelation—without direct knowledge communicated from Israel’s God—his people remain vulnerable to the tide of world events that determines their fate.
Instead, they could have determined their own fate (Isaiah 8:13-15; 28:7-13). The word “knowledge” (da‘at)—a covenant term—further signifies that his people no longer know their God. They may know about him; but they don’t know him in the way that he manifests himself personally to his elect (Isaiah 19:21; 52:6). If they did, they would not now perish nor be taken captive by their enemies (Isaiah 10:3-4; 14:16-17).

Isaiah 3
Wickedness in society leads to anarchy, internal collapse, destitution, and invasion by enemies.

1 Even now, the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts,
deprives Judea and Jerusalem
of both staff and crutch—
all food supply and water supply,

The title “Jehovah of Hosts” connotes Jehovah’s power and authority in implementing covenant curses now coming upon his people. The basic necessities they have so long taken for granted peter out as their circumstances change for the worse.
The people’s “staff and crutch”—their livelihood, communal structure, and civic leadership (vv 1-3)—crumble away as their society spirals into anarchy and chaos (vv 4-7).

[Catherine]

Aug. 2020



WHY LEADERS ARE QUIET ABOUT THE END TIMES!!

Brother Richard Draper is a religion teacher at BYU

“Between now and the time we build Zion - we are vulnerable.”


Richard Draper is an authority on the Book of Revelations, and he answers these questions:
Why don’t church leaders speak out more and warn about the last days and what’s coming?

Why is there no show of strength by the Church?

Why is there so much evil?

Why is there no parting of the Red Sea, as it were, or the ten plagues?

Why is there no drying up of the heavens, or plagues under the administration of the prophet?

Why is it that the church leaders do not march forth in strong defense, rising up to condemn the nation like the prophets of old?

Where is the equivalent of the burden of Babylon, or the burden of Assyria, or the burden of Moab?

We are just not hearing about these things!

Why do the leaders sit quietly, doing the inner work of the kingdom - rather than battling for righteousness by buying prime time slots on TV, holding huge rallies, or shouting hellfire against the sin centers of the world? Even the missionaries are encouraged not to contend, but to preach with love.



Could it be that we are now in the one thousand two hundred and sixty days when the beast walks the land? Are we now in the time, times, and half-time, when the three and ½ years commence? Are we in the midst of the forty-two months? Could it be that evil really is supposed to have the upper hand, to do its work … almost unhindered (at least for the time being)? Is it really possible?



The Book of Revelation in the New Testament provides an answer. It shows us that the path of the church is not to actively fight against Babylon or to put her down. She is to grow fat and sassy and to grow ever more arrogant and strong; and to remain ignorant that the day of her destruction is not far distant.

Our job is to flee Babylon (repent); gather Israel through the preaching of the gospel; perfect the Saints; redeem the dead; and build Zion.

The church does not have the resources to fight against principles, institutions, or people. Every ounce of energy (financial and human) must be used for people, for morality, for goodness—not for actively opposing Babylon. In the Book of Revelations, neither the 144,000 nor the Saints take part in any opposition against Babylon, the dragon, the beast, or false prophets. The Saints are absent from all battlefields. The 144,000 are engaged only in the gathering of those of Israel who will come to the Church of the Firstborn. The only task that The Book of Revelation assigns to the Saints is to worship God and not the beast; to endure in faith; maintain virtue; to withstand persecution; and to preach the gospel of God.

Evil really does have to have its day! Therefore, the church, for the present, is in a kind of isolation mode—concerned mostly with itself and internal affairs, strengthening its doctrinal and theological foundation—adding to its membership all who will come, and leaving the rest of the world to build that part of hell in which they will soon fall.

Yes, evil really has to have its day. This world is experiencing the stage on which the cosmos will be able to see the self-destructive nature of unrighteousness. Wickedness is going to come down! It is wickedness that is going to bring wickedness down. (The prophet won’t need to do it—the wicked will bring it on themselves.) The cosmos is going to be able to see that. And just at the point where everyone has learned this lesson…then God is going to step in and save the world.”

God laid out the plan for this world before it was created, and Jesus Christ is carrying out that plan in flawless detail. The Prophet and Apostles today are doing their part in carrying out that plan just as it was designed by God.

We have been warned. We are now being tested to see if we will be obedient to the Prophet.
God’s plan is working. The question is - ARE WE ON BOARD WITH HIS PLAN?

what ridiculous excuses.
"WHY LEADERS ARE QUIET ABOUT THE END TIMES!! "

simply put - because they don't receive revelation.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54782&p=1024195&hil ... o#p1024195
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1037704&hil ... h#p1037704


Isaiah 5

13 Therefore are my people exiled without knowing why; their best men die of famine,
their masses perish with thirst.

Without divine revelation—without direct knowledge communicated from Israel’s God—his people remain vulnerable to the tide of world events that determines their fate.
Instead, they could have determined their own fate (Isaiah 8:13-15; 28:7-13). The word “knowledge” (da‘at)—a covenant term—further signifies that his people no longer know their God. They may know about him; but they don’t know him in the way that he manifests himself personally to his elect (Isaiah 19:21; 52:6). If they did, they would not now perish nor be taken captive by their enemies (Isaiah 10:3-4; 14:16-17).

Isaiah 3
Wickedness in society leads to anarchy, internal collapse, destitution, and invasion by enemies.

1 Even now, the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts,
deprives Judea and Jerusalem
of both staff and crutch—
all food supply and water supply,

The title “Jehovah of Hosts” connotes Jehovah’s power and authority in implementing covenant curses now coming upon his people. The basic necessities they have so long taken for granted peter out as their circumstances change for the worse.
The people’s “staff and crutch”—their livelihood, communal structure, and civic leadership (vv 1-3)—crumble away as their society spirals into anarchy and chaos (vv 4-7).

We will just need to agree to disagree:). You do not know how much revelation they are receiving. You do not know what revelation they are receiving and how they are to be directing the saints right now. I think one day you might be surprised. And I will beat you to the punch, I might be surprised too, yes.

[SPIRIT]

Aug. 2020



WHY LEADERS ARE QUIET ABOUT THE END TIMES!!

Brother Richard Draper is a religion teacher at BYU

“Between now and the time we build Zion - we are vulnerable.”


Richard Draper is an authority on the Book of Revelations, and he answers these questions:
Why don’t church leaders speak out more and warn about the last days and what’s coming?

Why is there no show of strength by the Church?

Why is there so much evil?

Why is there no parting of the Red Sea, as it were, or the ten plagues?

Why is there no drying up of the heavens, or plagues under the administration of the prophet?

Why is it that the church leaders do not march forth in strong defense, rising up to condemn the nation like the prophets of old?

Where is the equivalent of the burden of Babylon, or the burden of Assyria, or the burden of Moab?

We are just not hearing about these things!

Why do the leaders sit quietly, doing the inner work of the kingdom - rather than battling for righteousness by buying prime time slots on TV, holding huge rallies, or shouting hellfire against the sin centers of the world? Even the missionaries are encouraged not to contend, but to preach with love.



Could it be that we are now in the one thousand two hundred and sixty days when the beast walks the land? Are we now in the time, times, and half-time, when the three and ½ years commence? Are we in the midst of the forty-two months? Could it be that evil really is supposed to have the upper hand, to do its work … almost unhindered (at least for the time being)? Is it really possible?



The Book of Revelation in the New Testament provides an answer. It shows us that the path of the church is not to actively fight against Babylon or to put her down. She is to grow fat and sassy and to grow ever more arrogant and strong; and to remain ignorant that the day of her destruction is not far distant.

Our job is to flee Babylon (repent); gather Israel through the preaching of the gospel; perfect the Saints; redeem the dead; and build Zion.

The church does not have the resources to fight against principles, institutions, or people. Every ounce of energy (financial and human) must be used for people, for morality, for goodness—not for actively opposing Babylon. In the Book of Revelations, neither the 144,000 nor the Saints take part in any opposition against Babylon, the dragon, the beast, or false prophets. The Saints are absent from all battlefields. The 144,000 are engaged only in the gathering of those of Israel who will come to the Church of the Firstborn. The only task that The Book of Revelation assigns to the Saints is to worship God and not the beast; to endure in faith; maintain virtue; to withstand persecution; and to preach the gospel of God.

Evil really does have to have its day! Therefore, the church, for the present, is in a kind of isolation mode—concerned mostly with itself and internal affairs, strengthening its doctrinal and theological foundation—adding to its membership all who will come, and leaving the rest of the world to build that part of hell in which they will soon fall.

Yes, evil really has to have its day. This world is experiencing the stage on which the cosmos will be able to see the self-destructive nature of unrighteousness. Wickedness is going to come down! It is wickedness that is going to bring wickedness down. (The prophet won’t need to do it—the wicked will bring it on themselves.) The cosmos is going to be able to see that. And just at the point where everyone has learned this lesson…then God is going to step in and save the world.”

God laid out the plan for this world before it was created, and Jesus Christ is carrying out that plan in flawless detail. The Prophet and Apostles today are doing their part in carrying out that plan just as it was designed by God.

We have been warned. We are now being tested to see if we will be obedient to the Prophet.
God’s plan is working. The question is - ARE WE ON BOARD WITH HIS PLAN?

what ridiculous excuses.
"WHY LEADERS ARE QUIET ABOUT THE END TIMES!! "

simply put - because they don't receive revelation.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54782&p=1024195&hil ... o#p1024195
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1037704&hil ... h#p1037704


Isaiah 5

13 Therefore are my people exiled without knowing why; their best men die of famine,
their masses perish with thirst.

Without divine revelation—without direct knowledge communicated from Israel’s God—his people remain vulnerable to the tide of world events that determines their fate.
Instead, they could have determined their own fate (Isaiah 8:13-15; 28:7-13). The word “knowledge” (da‘at)—a covenant term—further signifies that his people no longer know their God. They may know about him; but they don’t know him in the way that he manifests himself personally to his elect (Isaiah 19:21; 52:6). If they did, they would not now perish nor be taken captive by their enemies (Isaiah 10:3-4; 14:16-17).

Isaiah 3
Wickedness in society leads to anarchy, internal collapse, destitution, and invasion by enemies.

1 Even now, the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts,
deprives Judea and Jerusalem
of both staff and crutch—
all food supply and water supply,

The title “Jehovah of Hosts” connotes Jehovah’s power and authority in implementing covenant curses now coming upon his people. The basic necessities they have so long taken for granted peter out as their circumstances change for the worse.
The people’s “staff and crutch”—their livelihood, communal structure, and civic leadership (vv 1-3)—crumble away as their society spirals into anarchy and chaos (vv 4-7).

We will just need to agree to disagree:).
that's what everyone says when they can't think of anything else to say.
You do not know how much revelation they are receiving.
I think it's become quite obvious. Pre- planned talks that are prepared by who knows who, and are anything but revelation received.
You do not know what revelation they are receiving and how they are to be directing the saints right now.
again it's obvious; that's just the point - they're not directing at all, simply because they're not receiving revelation from the Lord.
I think one day you might be surprised. And I will beat you to the punch, I might be surprised too, yes.
I won't be surprised at all.
because I know without any doubt, that everything will happen according to what the scriptures say,, the scriptures I quote.

my comments in blue above

[BruceRGilbert]

I do know how much I am receiving and it would sure be nice if the "Brethren" would install bathing facilities in all chapels.

[Mark]

Aug. 2020



WHY LEADERS ARE QUIET ABOUT THE END TIMES!!

Brother Richard Draper is a religion teacher at BYU

“Between now and the time we build Zion - we are vulnerable.”


Richard Draper is an authority on the Book of Revelations, and he answers these questions:
Why don’t church leaders speak out more and warn about the last days and what’s coming?

Why is there no show of strength by the Church?

Why is there so much evil?

Why is there no parting of the Red Sea, as it were, or the ten plagues?

Why is there no drying up of the heavens, or plagues under the administration of the prophet?

Why is it that the church leaders do not march forth in strong defense, rising up to condemn the nation like the prophets of old?

Where is the equivalent of the burden of Babylon, or the burden of Assyria, or the burden of Moab?

We are just not hearing about these things!

Why do the leaders sit quietly, doing the inner work of the kingdom - rather than battling for righteousness by buying prime time slots on TV, holding huge rallies, or shouting hellfire against the sin centers of the world? Even the missionaries are encouraged not to contend, but to preach with love.



Could it be that we are now in the one thousand two hundred and sixty days when the beast walks the land? Are we now in the time, times, and half-time, when the three and ½ years commence? Are we in the midst of the forty-two months? Could it be that evil really is supposed to have the upper hand, to do its work … almost unhindered (at least for the time being)? Is it really possible?



The Book of Revelation in the New Testament provides an answer. It shows us that the path of the church is not to actively fight against Babylon or to put her down. She is to grow fat and sassy and to grow ever more arrogant and strong; and to remain ignorant that the day of her destruction is not far distant.

Our job is to flee Babylon (repent); gather Israel through the preaching of the gospel; perfect the Saints; redeem the dead; and build Zion.

The church does not have the resources to fight against principles, institutions, or people. Every ounce of energy (financial and human) must be used for people, for morality, for goodness—not for actively opposing Babylon. In the Book of Revelations, neither the 144,000 nor the Saints take part in any opposition against Babylon, the dragon, the beast, or false prophets. The Saints are absent from all battlefields. The 144,000 are engaged only in the gathering of those of Israel who will come to the Church of the Firstborn. The only task that The Book of Revelation assigns to the Saints is to worship God and not the beast; to endure in faith; maintain virtue; to withstand persecution; and to preach the gospel of God.

Evil really does have to have its day! Therefore, the church, for the present, is in a kind of isolation mode—concerned mostly with itself and internal affairs, strengthening its doctrinal and theological foundation—adding to its membership all who will come, and leaving the rest of the world to build that part of hell in which they will soon fall.

Yes, evil really has to have its day. This world is experiencing the stage on which the cosmos will be able to see the self-destructive nature of unrighteousness. Wickedness is going to come down! It is wickedness that is going to bring wickedness down. (The prophet won’t need to do it—the wicked will bring it on themselves.) The cosmos is going to be able to see that. And just at the point where everyone has learned this lesson…then God is going to step in and save the world.”

God laid out the plan for this world before it was created, and Jesus Christ is carrying out that plan in flawless detail. The Prophet and Apostles today are doing their part in carrying out that plan just as it was designed by God.

We have been warned. We are now being tested to see if we will be obedient to the Prophet.
God’s plan is working. The question is - ARE WE ON BOARD WITH HIS PLAN?

what ridiculous excuses.
"WHY LEADERS ARE QUIET ABOUT THE END TIMES!! "

simply put - because they don't receive revelation.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54782&p=1024195&hil ... o#p1024195
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1037704&hil ... h#p1037704


Isaiah 5

13 Therefore are my people exiled without knowing why; their best men die of famine,
their masses perish with thirst.

Without divine revelation—without direct knowledge communicated from Israel’s God—his people remain vulnerable to the tide of world events that determines their fate.
Instead, they could have determined their own fate (Isaiah 8:13-15; 28:7-13). The word “knowledge” (da‘at)—a covenant term—further signifies that his people no longer know their God. They may know about him; but they don’t know him in the way that he manifests himself personally to his elect (Isaiah 19:21; 52:6). If they did, they would not now perish nor be taken captive by their enemies (Isaiah 10:3-4; 14:16-17).

Isaiah 3
Wickedness in society leads to anarchy, internal collapse, destitution, and invasion by enemies.

1 Even now, the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts,
deprives Judea and Jerusalem
of both staff and crutch—
all food supply and water supply,

The title “Jehovah of Hosts” connotes Jehovah’s power and authority in implementing covenant curses now coming upon his people. The basic necessities they have so long taken for granted peter out as their circumstances change for the worse.
The people’s “staff and crutch”—their livelihood, communal structure, and civic leadership (vv 1-3)—crumble away as their society spirals into anarchy and chaos (vv 4-7).

We will just need to agree to disagree:).
that's what everyone says when they can't think of anything else to say.
You do not know how much revelation they are receiving.
I think it's become quite obvious. Pre- planned talks that are prepared by who knows who, and are anything but revelation received.
You do not know what revelation they are receiving and how they are to be directing the saints right now.
again it's obvious; that's just the point - they're not directing at all, simply because they're not receiving revelation from the Lord.
I think one day you might be surprised. And I will beat you to the punch, I might be surprised too, yes.
I won't be surprised at all.
because I know without any doubt, that everything will happen according to what the scriptures say,, the scriptures I quote.

my comments in blue above

For some reason this story comes to mind and seems to have application here:

“While in Kirtland, President Brigham Young encountered a group of apostates who were plotting against the Prophet Joseph Smith within the very walls of the temple. He declared, “I rose up, and in a plain and forcible manner told them that Joseph was a Prophet, and I knew it, and they might rail and slander him as much as they pleased, they could not destroy the appointment of the Prophet of God, they could only destroy their own authority, cut the thread that bound them to the Prophet and to God and sink themselves to hell” (“History of Brigham Young,” DNW, 10 Feb. 1858, 386).

[BringerOfJoy]

Maybe he is hiding out with Trump in that NJ resort?

Well, according to his schedule, Trump has returned to the White House, but where did he leave President Nelson?

[ampeterlin]

Genuinely wondering if LDS Freedom Forum is an apostate group? I haven't been here for awhile and it appears people are very critical of the church and its leaders.

I bet if you searched old posts it probably wasn't always like this . . .I think it's just a lot of members are recognizing something is seriously wrong.

Yeah exactly there’s an awakening going on

But since you can’t voice your opinion openly because of the idolatry and deference to men, you have to come to places like this to vent and express your views

There is a difference between being critical/criticizing and thinking critically. Most perceive thinking critically as being critical or criticizing.

Criticism is controlling. Control is of the enemy of God. Forcing people to be obedient is of the enemy as well as we know.

I have experienced what it is like to live under a controlling regime where the enemy ruled the world I lived in. My husband was emotionally and verbally abusive, and lest any of you say I just chose wrong, it was my God-asked trial to endure for many years, until I was released by Him. I am glad to have had this experience and learned many, many things and it included having the dross burned out of me.

Not only did I learn what God is all about, but I learned what the enemy was all about.

The enemy is about control. Our God is about choice.

If you are not allowing for complete freedom of thought and behavior, you belong to the enemy. What I mean here is allow for freedom of choice through thought and action. Any sort of control is not from God.

We have many scriptures which support the fact that God gave us free moral agency, it is God given.

Our problem nowadays is that people want to only accept others who think like they do, no matter the subject.

In my view, one of our greatest stumbling blocks as a membership is to control, and many among us act as though it is better to be obedient through control. This is not the truth.

It is better to learn through choice how to be obedient and even though I am very opposed to criticism (it is another tool of the enemy), we need to learn to reason things out in our minds and then come to the Lord and reason together with Him. That is critically thinking.

[simpleton]

what ridiculous excuses.
"WHY LEADERS ARE QUIET ABOUT THE END TIMES!! "

simply put - because they don't receive revelation.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54782&p=1024195&hil ... o#p1024195
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1037704&hil ... h#p1037704


Isaiah 5

13 Therefore are my people exiled without knowing why; their best men die of famine,
their masses perish with thirst.

Without divine revelation—without direct knowledge communicated from Israel’s God—his people remain vulnerable to the tide of world events that determines their fate.
Instead, they could have determined their own fate (Isaiah 8:13-15; 28:7-13). The word “knowledge” (da‘at)—a covenant term—further signifies that his people no longer know their God. They may know about him; but they don’t know him in the way that he manifests himself personally to his elect (Isaiah 19:21; 52:6). If they did, they would not now perish nor be taken captive by their enemies (Isaiah 10:3-4; 14:16-17).

Isaiah 3
Wickedness in society leads to anarchy, internal collapse, destitution, and invasion by enemies.

1 Even now, the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts,
deprives Judea and Jerusalem
of both staff and crutch—
all food supply and water supply,

The title “Jehovah of Hosts” connotes Jehovah’s power and authority in implementing covenant curses now coming upon his people. The basic necessities they have so long taken for granted peter out as their circumstances change for the worse.
The people’s “staff and crutch”—their livelihood, communal structure, and civic leadership (vv 1-3)—crumble away as their society spirals into anarchy and chaos (vv 4-7).

We will just need to agree to disagree:).
that's what everyone says when they can't think of anything else to say.
You do not know how much revelation they are receiving.
I think it's become quite obvious. Pre- planned talks that are prepared by who knows who, and are anything but revelation received.
You do not know what revelation they are receiving and how they are to be directing the saints right now.
again it's obvious; that's just the point - they're not directing at all, simply because they're not receiving revelation from the Lord.
I think one day you might be surprised. And I will beat you to the punch, I might be surprised too, yes.
I won't be surprised at all.
because I know without any doubt, that everything will happen according to what the scriptures say,, the scriptures I quote.

my comments in blue above

For some reason this story comes to mind and seems to have application here:

“While in Kirtland, President Brigham Young encountered a group of apostates who were plotting against the Prophet Joseph Smith within the very walls of the temple. He declared, “I rose up, and in a plain and forcible manner told them that Joseph was a Prophet, and I knew it, and they might rail and slander him as much as they pleased, they could not destroy the appointment of the Prophet of God, they could only destroy their own authority, cut the thread that bound them to the Prophet and to God and sink themselves to hell” (“History of Brigham Young,” DNW, 10 Feb. 1858, 386).

Well this story is about Joseph, the subject of this thread is Nelson. Joseph was called and appointed by God, Nielson was not. There was no revelation calling Nelson to the Apostleship. Much less to the presidency. Belief does not make it so, nor does faith, nor does insistence. In fact you them or anybody else cannot produce any revelation of not even one of the existing 12 apostles calling any of them to the Apostleship. And they cannot even bear witness of JC unless they know Him and none of them do. So maybe it's the other way around instead.

[Chip]

No matter what they do or don't do, it is correct, because the church is true and the prophet cannot lead us astray. Your personal righteousness is a function of your conformance to this axiom. Questioning this axiom leads to spiritual death.

Scriptures please?

The living oracles have said as much on many occasions. We don't need written scriptures to validate that. When they said it, it became scripture.

If the first commandment is to love God with all your might, mind, and soul, and to love your neighbor as yourself, then following the prophet is the zeroeth commandment.

[JK4Woods]

The early church during the restoration was driven from pillar to post.

Anyone know if documents from that era mention great growth, prosperity and peace in the church?

Or just that it will “grow to fill the earth”?

I seem to remember a prophecy about spreading “abroad even to the islands of the sea”, but this one doesn’t say it will be rich and prosperous.

Seems like when true doctrine is preached, opposition grows as Satan doesn’t like disruption in his kingdom. A century and a half ago, when true doctrine was preached, mobs were formed, homes burned and the Saints were run out of town.

(Even in England, missionary work brought opposition and a great many members left the controversy fomented by other religions in the area).

This happened a whole bunch.
Even the early days of the church in Utah had constant threat of military action against it, etc.

When did the church “turn the corner” and essentially leave behind controversies and revolutionary doctrine..??

Or is the church being powerful, rich, and influential a regularly expected course of events....??

Even the early church run by the original Twelve had a lot of division, wandering, and soon was lost.

I guess the church in our day is special, blessed and strengthened by clear succession of good men to the leadership. And the momentum is what multiplies the power.

Maybe it’s because so many more people are on the face of the earth right now, Satan’s minions are the same quantity, so there is a mathematical advantage to having 7 billion on earth... less tempting demons to whisper in our ears... they are spread pretty thin...

[Robin Hood]

Maybe it’s because so many more people are on the face of the earth right now, Satan’s minions are the same quantity, so there is a mathematical advantage to having 7 billion on earth... less tempting demons to whisper in our ears... they are spread pretty thin...

Not so in my view. Lucifer has more at his disposal now than ever before.
There are two kinds of devils. The first is made up of the unembodied spirits who followed Lucifer in the war in heaven and were cast out with him. I believe that number remains constant. These are called "evil spirits".
The second group is the disembodied spirits of those who have either chosen to follow evil rather than good during their earth life, or who die in their sins and are unrepentant. These are called "unclean spirits", and are the most numerous group. It is this group who generally seek to possess us in order to indulge their desires and addictions. This group is numerically increasing every day.

[Mark]

We will just need to agree to disagree:).
that's what everyone says when they can't think of anything else to say.
You do not know how much revelation they are receiving.
I think it's become quite obvious. Pre- planned talks that are prepared by who knows who, and are anything but revelation received.
You do not know what revelation they are receiving and how they are to be directing the saints right now.
again it's obvious; that's just the point - they're not directing at all, simply because they're not receiving revelation from the Lord.
I think one day you might be surprised. And I will beat you to the punch, I might be surprised too, yes.
I won't be surprised at all.
because I know without any doubt, that everything will happen according to what the scriptures say,, the scriptures I quote.

my comments in blue above

For some reason this story comes to mind and seems to have application here:

“While in Kirtland, President Brigham Young encountered a group of apostates who were plotting against the Prophet Joseph Smith within the very walls of the temple. He declared, “I rose up, and in a plain and forcible manner told them that Joseph was a Prophet, and I knew it, and they might rail and slander him as much as they pleased, they could not destroy the appointment of the Prophet of God, they could only destroy their own authority, cut the thread that bound them to the Prophet and to God and sink themselves to hell” (“History of Brigham Young,” DNW, 10 Feb. 1858, 386).

Well this story is about Joseph, the subject of this thread is Nelson. Joseph was called and appointed by God, Nielson was not. There was no revelation calling Nelson to the Apostleship. Much less to the presidency. Belief does not make it so, nor does faith, nor does insistence. In fact you them or anybody else cannot produce any revelation of not even one of the existing 12 apostles calling any of them to the Apostleship. And they cannot even bear witness of JC unless they know Him and none of them do. So maybe it's the other way around instead.

Does this answer your question Catherine?

[harakim]

Aug. 2020



WHY LEADERS ARE QUIET ABOUT THE END TIMES!!

Brother Richard Draper is a religion teacher at BYU

“Between now and the time we build Zion - we are vulnerable.”


Richard Draper is an authority on the Book of Revelations, and he answers these questions:
Why don’t church leaders speak out more and warn about the last days and what’s coming?

Why is there no show of strength by the Church?

Why is there so much evil?

Why is there no parting of the Red Sea, as it were, or the ten plagues?

Why is there no drying up of the heavens, or plagues under the administration of the prophet?

Why is it that the church leaders do not march forth in strong defense, rising up to condemn the nation like the prophets of old?

Where is the equivalent of the burden of Babylon, or the burden of Assyria, or the burden of Moab?

We are just not hearing about these things!

Why do the leaders sit quietly, doing the inner work of the kingdom - rather than battling for righteousness by buying prime time slots on TV, holding huge rallies, or shouting hellfire against the sin centers of the world? Even the missionaries are encouraged not to contend, but to preach with love.



Could it be that we are now in the one thousand two hundred and sixty days when the beast walks the land? Are we now in the time, times, and half-time, when the three and ½ years commence? Are we in the midst of the forty-two months? Could it be that evil really is supposed to have the upper hand, to do its work … almost unhindered (at least for the time being)? Is it really possible?



The Book of Revelation in the New Testament provides an answer. It shows us that the path of the church is not to actively fight against Babylon or to put her down. She is to grow fat and sassy and to grow ever more arrogant and strong; and to remain ignorant that the day of her destruction is not far distant.

Our job is to flee Babylon (repent); gather Israel through the preaching of the gospel; perfect the Saints; redeem the dead; and build Zion.

The church does not have the resources to fight against principles, institutions, or people. Every ounce of energy (financial and human) must be used for people, for morality, for goodness—not for actively opposing Babylon. In the Book of Revelations, neither the 144,000 nor the Saints take part in any opposition against Babylon, the dragon, the beast, or false prophets. The Saints are absent from all battlefields. The 144,000 are engaged only in the gathering of those of Israel who will come to the Church of the Firstborn. The only task that The Book of Revelation assigns to the Saints is to worship God and not the beast; to endure in faith; maintain virtue; to withstand persecution; and to preach the gospel of God.

Evil really does have to have its day! Therefore, the church, for the present, is in a kind of isolation mode—concerned mostly with itself and internal affairs, strengthening its doctrinal and theological foundation—adding to its membership all who will come, and leaving the rest of the world to build that part of hell in which they will soon fall.

Yes, evil really has to have its day. This world is experiencing the stage on which the cosmos will be able to see the self-destructive nature of unrighteousness. Wickedness is going to come down! It is wickedness that is going to bring wickedness down. (The prophet won’t need to do it—the wicked will bring it on themselves.) The cosmos is going to be able to see that. And just at the point where everyone has learned this lesson…then God is going to step in and save the world.”

God laid out the plan for this world before it was created, and Jesus Christ is carrying out that plan in flawless detail. The Prophet and Apostles today are doing their part in carrying out that plan just as it was designed by God.

We have been warned. We are now being tested to see if we will be obedient to the Prophet.
God’s plan is working. The question is - ARE WE ON BOARD WITH HIS PLAN?

Look it up, its all written in prophecy specifically to us in our day. But again, if we want to continue thinking smugly how we are righteous, and that we are in Gods favor, that is everyone's inalienable right. But that does not make it so. Just look at our fruits, we are totally immersed in the doings and means and ways and wickedness of Babylon, and no amount of "Jesus loves you" or "Christ centered" talk makes any difference. We will not be able to sweet talk our way into Gods Kingdom.

The scriptures CLEARLY teach that the beast will overcome the saints. That is the clearest part of Revelation, I think.
“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”
...
"And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."
I'm not saying this is what the church is doing. I'm just saying that what the Draper person was saying is scripturally based.
I specifically remember someone in general conference saying that they had warned about staying out of debt and having a food storage for some number of years and they wouldn't warn anymore. Now I specifically remember President Nelson saying we needed the Holy Ghost in our lives to survive spiritually. It's hard to imagine people arguing that that isn't true and that it's the prophet's job right now, but here we are.
I'm sure someone will respond with examples of ancient prophets like Isaiah. First of all, I can verbalize all of Isaiah in a couple hours. So if he said all those things directly to the people, which I doubt, that is a couple of hours of preaching in a lifetime. I would imagine he was absent for periods and did other things with his life than preach constantly.

See the two-sided nature of this conversation.
1) The Church teaches things. Response: Don't follow men
2) President Nelson tells you to follow the spirit. Response: They aren't teaching us things.
It reminds me of this scripture: “And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.”

[JT1]

"Obedient to the prophet"?

Yes, assuming he is God's mouthpiece and is relaying information from the almighty Himself.

We are specifically warned against putting our trust in the arm of flesh.
God does not require us to be obedient to the prophet.

But He does require us to be obedient to Him. God speaks to the church as a whole through His Prophet. So maybe a better way to put it is that we obey God through His Prophet's voice. I also seek for my own revelation as well.

D&C 1:38. "...whether by mine own voice or by the voice if my servants, it is the same."

[Alexander]

Yes, assuming he is God's mouthpiece and is relaying information from the almighty Himself.

We are specifically warned against putting our trust in the arm of flesh.
God does not require us to be obedient to the prophet.

But He does require us to be obedient to Him. God speaks to the church as a whole through His Prophet. So maybe a better way to put it is that we obey God through His Prophet's voice. I also seek for my own revelation as well.

D&C 1:38. "...whether by mine own voice or by the voice if my servants, it is the same."

Yes...but this clearly doesn’t say that every single word they speak is from the Lord also. And this also clearly isn’t saying the leaders of our church are the Lord’s servants. See, most of the time we just assume they are, and never take a look at their fruits and ask the Lord if they are his servants.

Presidents and leaders of our church are not to stand in the way of our relationship with Christ. If we are relying too much upon the prophet, our minds will become darkened. This is because Christ is the light that is to fill our minds. We have to remove our stumbling blocks and idols.

Leaders who proclaim blind obedience of the people to themselves are either deceived or have it in their hearts to gain power over the people. Amen to the priesthood of that man.

[JK4Woods]

Maybe it’s because so many more people are on the face of the earth right now, Satan’s minions are the same quantity, so there is a mathematical advantage to having 7 billion on earth... less tempting demons to whisper in our ears... they are spread pretty thin...

Not so in my view. Lucifer has more at his disposal now than ever before.
There are two kinds of devils. The first is made up of the unembodied spirits who followed Lucifer in the war in heaven and were cast out with him. I believe that number remains constant. These are called "evil spirits".
The second group is the disembodied spirits of those who have either chosen to follow evil rather than good during their earth life, or who die in their sins and are unrepentant. These are called "unclean spirits", and are the most numerous group. It is this group who generally seek to possess us in order to indulge their desires and addictions. This group is numerically increasing every day.

Oh.. I guess I figured the disembodied spirits of wicked people who once lived on earth (and chose the “dark side”), went to spirit prison when they died.

Spirit prison I thought meant some kind of incarceration. With some kind of restrictions on interaction among others. (A gulf..??).

However I do remember that book about the soldier who died and got to see what happens in a bar when the patrons got really drunk. Said he saw unclean spirits wanting to get into the drunkards body to feel the flush of alcohol again.
(Return from Tomorrow, by George Ritchie).


Maybe a bunch of spirits don’t get locked up in Spirit Prison. Maybe they escape, or somehow get paroled...??

I remember reading somewhere another description of satan’s followers. The original third look weird, don’t have a sharp refined structure like those who actually were born and got a body.

Anyway Robin Hood, you bring up an interesting point. Thanks!

[Lykos]

3437 stakes
399 missions

Divide them up between the 15 apostles and that is ~256 each. Thats pretty close to 1 per week day for each year.

Add in the following: missionary assignments, handbook revisions, temple endowment instruction changes, preparing for general conference (early october less than two months away)...

Dividing further: ministering to the leadership, ministering to members in general, ministering to individuals — if they spend 3 hours with each group, theres a full 9 hour day, 5 days a week, all year round

The church has probably grown past the point where even fully healthy apostles are able to reasonably minister to each stake each year. — in fact, at the start, all the apostles were traveling a ton trying to keep up a pace that would let one of them visit each stake once per four years, which would be significantly better than historically (due to the health of the apostles).

I cant find fault with their current schedules — every man only has 24 hours.

They have done a huge campaign to try to get people to receive revelation for themselves, to hear the voice of Jesus Christ.

President Nelson prophesied that Jesus Christ will perform some of His mightiest miracles between now and His return.

Why have so little faith?

[lemuel]

what ridiculous excuses.
"WHY LEADERS ARE QUIET ABOUT THE END TIMES!! "

simply put - because they don't receive revelation.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54782&p=1024195&hil ... o#p1024195
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1037704&hil ... h#p1037704


Isaiah 5

13 Therefore are my people exiled without knowing why; their best men die of famine,
their masses perish with thirst.

Without divine revelation—without direct knowledge communicated from Israel’s God—his people remain vulnerable to the tide of world events that determines their fate.
Instead, they could have determined their own fate (Isaiah 8:13-15; 28:7-13). The word “knowledge” (da‘at)—a covenant term—further signifies that his people no longer know their God. They may know about him; but they don’t know him in the way that he manifests himself personally to his elect (Isaiah 19:21; 52:6). If they did, they would not now perish nor be taken captive by their enemies (Isaiah 10:3-4; 14:16-17).

Isaiah 3
Wickedness in society leads to anarchy, internal collapse, destitution, and invasion by enemies.

1 Even now, the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts,
deprives Judea and Jerusalem
of both staff and crutch—
all food supply and water supply,

The title “Jehovah of Hosts” connotes Jehovah’s power and authority in implementing covenant curses now coming upon his people. The basic necessities they have so long taken for granted peter out as their circumstances change for the worse.
The people’s “staff and crutch”—their livelihood, communal structure, and civic leadership (vv 1-3)—crumble away as their society spirals into anarchy and chaos (vv 4-7).

We will just need to agree to disagree:).
that's what everyone says when they can't think of anything else to say.
You do not know how much revelation they are receiving.
I think it's become quite obvious. Pre- planned talks that are prepared by who knows who, and are anything but revelation received.
You do not know what revelation they are receiving and how they are to be directing the saints right now.
again it's obvious; that's just the point - they're not directing at all, simply because they're not receiving revelation from the Lord.
I think one day you might be surprised. And I will beat you to the punch, I might be surprised too, yes.
I won't be surprised at all.
because I know without any doubt, that everything will happen according to what the scriptures say,, the scriptures I quote.

my comments in blue above

For some reason this story comes to mind and seems to have application here:

“While in Kirtland, President Brigham Young encountered a group of apostates who were plotting against the Prophet Joseph Smith within the very walls of the temple. He declared, “I rose up, and in a plain and forcible manner told them that Joseph was a Prophet, and I knew it, and they might rail and slander him as much as they pleased, they could not destroy the appointment of the Prophet of God, they could only destroy their own authority, cut the thread that bound them to the Prophet and to God and sink themselves to hell” (“History of Brigham Young,” DNW, 10 Feb. 1858, 386).

If only Brigham had said this publicly at the time, and not 20 years later in an effort to convince others that BY was Joseph's most loyal follower and therefore his rightful successor, then I might believe him.

[lemuel]

Aug. 2020



WHY LEADERS ARE QUIET ABOUT THE END TIMES!!

Brother Richard Draper is a religion teacher at BYU

“Between now and the time we build Zion - we are vulnerable.”


Richard Draper is an authority on the Book of Revelations, and he answers these questions:
Why don’t church leaders speak out more and warn about the last days and what’s coming?

Why is there no show of strength by the Church?

Why is there so much evil?

Why is there no parting of the Red Sea, as it were, or the ten plagues?

Why is there no drying up of the heavens, or plagues under the administration of the prophet?

Why is it that the church leaders do not march forth in strong defense, rising up to condemn the nation like the prophets of old?

Where is the equivalent of the burden of Babylon, or the burden of Assyria, or the burden of Moab?

We are just not hearing about these things!

Why do the leaders sit quietly, doing the inner work of the kingdom - rather than battling for righteousness by buying prime time slots on TV, holding huge rallies, or shouting hellfire against the sin centers of the world? Even the missionaries are encouraged not to contend, but to preach with love.



Could it be that we are now in the one thousand two hundred and sixty days when the beast walks the land? Are we now in the time, times, and half-time, when the three and ½ years commence? Are we in the midst of the forty-two months? Could it be that evil really is supposed to have the upper hand, to do its work … almost unhindered (at least for the time being)? Is it really possible?



The Book of Revelation in the New Testament provides an answer. It shows us that the path of the church is not to actively fight against Babylon or to put her down. She is to grow fat and sassy and to grow ever more arrogant and strong; and to remain ignorant that the day of her destruction is not far distant.

Our job is to flee Babylon (repent); gather Israel through the preaching of the gospel; perfect the Saints; redeem the dead; and build Zion.

The church does not have the resources to fight against principles, institutions, or people. Every ounce of energy (financial and human) must be used for people, for morality, for goodness—not for actively opposing Babylon. In the Book of Revelations, neither the 144,000 nor the Saints take part in any opposition against Babylon, the dragon, the beast, or false prophets. The Saints are absent from all battlefields. The 144,000 are engaged only in the gathering of those of Israel who will come to the Church of the Firstborn. The only task that The Book of Revelation assigns to the Saints is to worship God and not the beast; to endure in faith; maintain virtue; to withstand persecution; and to preach the gospel of God.

Evil really does have to have its day! Therefore, the church, for the present, is in a kind of isolation mode—concerned mostly with itself and internal affairs, strengthening its doctrinal and theological foundation—adding to its membership all who will come, and leaving the rest of the world to build that part of hell in which they will soon fall.

Yes, evil really has to have its day. This world is experiencing the stage on which the cosmos will be able to see the self-destructive nature of unrighteousness. Wickedness is going to come down! It is wickedness that is going to bring wickedness down. (The prophet won’t need to do it—the wicked will bring it on themselves.) The cosmos is going to be able to see that. And just at the point where everyone has learned this lesson…then God is going to step in and save the world.”

God laid out the plan for this world before it was created, and Jesus Christ is carrying out that plan in flawless detail. The Prophet and Apostles today are doing their part in carrying out that plan just as it was designed by God.

We have been warned. We are now being tested to see if we will be obedient to the Prophet.
God’s plan is working. The question is - ARE WE ON BOARD WITH HIS PLAN?

what ridiculous excuses.
"WHY LEADERS ARE QUIET ABOUT THE END TIMES!! "

simply put - because they don't receive revelation.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54782&p=1024195&hil ... o#p1024195
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1037704&hil ... h#p1037704


Isaiah 5

13 Therefore are my people exiled without knowing why; their best men die of famine,
their masses perish with thirst.

Without divine revelation—without direct knowledge communicated from Israel’s God—his people remain vulnerable to the tide of world events that determines their fate.
Instead, they could have determined their own fate (Isaiah 8:13-15; 28:7-13). The word “knowledge” (da‘at)—a covenant term—further signifies that his people no longer know their God. They may know about him; but they don’t know him in the way that he manifests himself personally to his elect (Isaiah 19:21; 52:6). If they did, they would not now perish nor be taken captive by their enemies (Isaiah 10:3-4; 14:16-17).

Isaiah 3
Wickedness in society leads to anarchy, internal collapse, destitution, and invasion by enemies.

1 Even now, the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts,
deprives Judea and Jerusalem
of both staff and crutch—
all food supply and water supply,

The title “Jehovah of Hosts” connotes Jehovah’s power and authority in implementing covenant curses now coming upon his people. The basic necessities they have so long taken for granted peter out as their circumstances change for the worse.
The people’s “staff and crutch”—their livelihood, communal structure, and civic leadership (vv 1-3)—crumble away as their society spirals into anarchy and chaos (vv 4-7).

We will just need to agree to disagree:). You do not know how much revelation they are receiving. You do not know what revelation they are receiving and how they are to be directing the saints right now. I think one day you might be surprised. And I will beat you to the punch, I might be surprised too, yes.

The ol' "The leaders are probably having tons of secret revelations" bit. But it's not really a revelation if it isn't revealed.

[FoundMyEden]

Anyone remember when the Father removes himself from the Christ so that he could bear the burdens of the world upon his shoulders? We are supposed to be the body of Christ. We are supposed to carry our cross. President Nelson is just as much a part of the body as we are, albeit the mouthpiece...but there’s a time when even the mouthpiece is silenced. Maybe there’s a reason he was bucked off and the mantle is being handed to someone else. I don’t have a problem with the silence, because I have faith in my relationship with my Savior and I do take the Holy Spirit as my guide...it’s not silent in the body where people are seeking the Spirit. Prophets were never meant to be idolized, infact just the opposite. So if God has taken the training wheels away after his time of succor, then buckle up buttercup...it’s our time to roll. The test comes before the license.