Israel's thermite lab

[Col. Flagg]

Yeah us old farts just can't grasp things like you young bucks with steel traps for brains when it comes to various conspiracies. Thats why the old foggy and myself need you youngsters to continue educating us on all your multitudes of proof when it comes to these things. Just think of it as a service you are rendering to the feeble minded.

Pleasure to be of service!

Seriously Mark... no scientific evidence that proves demolition of three skyscrapers on 9/11 means anything to you? The existence of nano-thermite means nothing? Pools of molten metal that lasted up to 3 months after 9/11 is of no consequence? I'm trying to understand your rationale for continuing to deny the possibility of an inside job. You don't see anything wrong with two 110 story buildings peeling like bananas into themselves while disintegrating and being pulverized to dust during collapse... at near free fall speed (10-12 seconds)??? You see no problem with the immediate removal of all of the scrap metal and debris from ground zero before any investigation could be conducted? This alone is a felony and it was the federal 'government' that had it done. What more proof do you need?

[Mark]

Seriously Mark... no scientific evidence that proves demolition of three skyscrapers on 9/11 means anything to you? The existence of nano-thermite means nothing? Pools of molten metal that lasted up to 3 months after 9/11 is of no consequence? I'm trying to understand your rationale for continuing to deny the possibility of an inside job. You don't see anything wrong with two 110 story buildings peeling like bananas into themselves while disintegrating and being pulverized to dust during collapse... at near free fall speed (10-12 seconds)??? You see no problem with the immediate removal of all of the scrap metal and debris from ground zero before any investigation could be conducted? This alone is a felony and it was the federal 'government' that had it done. What more proof do you need?

Look my friend every single thing you bring up in your post has been answered and explained ad naseum by multiple debunking groups time and again. They have explanations that are just as plausible and in many cases more so than your explanations. Dalton has continually given you other possible explanations from many credible sources and scientists yet you just ignore them as if they have absolutely no validity.

Your mind is already made up in this issue and nothing will move you from that. That is fine for you to take that approach but it just isn't the approach I choose to take. There are still many different plausible explanations that I can see for what happened on 9-11 and I can give you 100 different takes from what you have concluded and you will ignore every one of them as invalid if they don't line up with yours. This is such a deep felt issue with those like yourself who are convinced of their particular version of truth so it is best to just move on. Nothing will change with how you think no matter what is brought forward. Lets just agree to disagree and move on to things that face us today like the destruction of our Republic.

[Col. Flagg]

Seriously Mark... no scientific evidence that proves demolition of three skyscrapers on 9/11 means anything to you? The existence of nano-thermite means nothing? Pools of molten metal that lasted up to 3 months after 9/11 is of no consequence? I'm trying to understand your rationale for continuing to deny the possibility of an inside job. You don't see anything wrong with two 110 story buildings peeling like bananas into themselves while disintegrating and being pulverized to dust during collapse... at near free fall speed (10-12 seconds)??? You see no problem with the immediate removal of all of the scrap metal and debris from ground zero before any investigation could be conducted? This alone is a felony and it was the federal 'government' that had it done. What more proof do you need?

Look my friend every single thing you bring up in your post has been answered and explained ad naseum by multiple debunking groups time and again. They have explanations that are just as plausible and in many cases more so than your explanations. Dalton has continually given you other possible explanations from many credible sources and scientists yet you just ignore them as if they have absolutely no validity.

Your mind is already made up in this issue and nothing will move you from that. That is fine for you to take that approach but it just isn't the approach I choose to take. There are still many different plausible explanations that I can see for what happened on 9-11 and I can give you 100 different takes from what you have concluded and you will ignore every one of them as invalid if they don't line up with yours. This is such a deep felt issue with those like yourself who are convinced of their particular version of truth so it is best to just move on. Nothing will change with how you think no matter what is brought forward. Lets just agree to disagree and move on to things that face us today like the destruction of our Republic.

Agreed.

By chance have you heard Glenn Beck the past few days? Man... he's really had his eyes opened to what's going on in Washington. I was shocked to hear him say yesterday that we all need to get past the party paradigm and recognize that both parties are leading us to destruction. And then this morning, he began entertaining the notion that maybe Obama really isn't in control or in charge and that wealthy elitists behind the scenes are. All I can say is that IT IS ABOUT TIME GLENN!!!

[Oldemandalton]

From My Poor Misguided Friend, Col Flagg;
It's an actual special weapons manufacturing plant in the Israeli desert Dalton.

No, Col. This thread is about an article from an Anti-Semetic that IT is an “Israel's Super-Thermite Lab”. Of course as any ‘dyed in the wool’ “Truther”, you accepted this allegation without any evidence or back checking. This is what is wrong with you guys. Accept any absurdity as FACT.

I wasn't aware Bollyn was an anti-Semite until after I had posted the article and did some research into it. My bad, I admit.

No, unfortunately, this has shown how closed-minded you are.

My Ignored Question;
How has Israel benefited from 9/11? I have shown, albeit with sarcasm, that this is far from the truth.

Col Flagg Powerful Rejoinder;
Huh

Man, Col, you got me there. That three letter word PROVES without a doubt that Israel benefitted from 9/11. I just wasted my time coming up with facts to show how they really didn’t benefit. What an idiot I am. "Huh"

I recognize that Israel is in a life or death struggle, but to think that it is the victim all the time which is only defending itself from rogue terrorist groups or that it does not engage in covert or evil operations for its own benefit... is naive. Let's just agree to disagree and move on (again).

No, I am sure part of the reason Israel still exists is BECAUSE of the secret operations of Mossad.

From Kurt;
Very good comment, I agree. I created a topic that addresses the older generation issue of not grasping that secret combinations surround us in our government internally and have gotten above us, and this has been the case for quite some time; not just since Obama got elected....

Hey you little ‘wipper snapper’. Let me tell you I walked 10 miles to school, bare foot, in the snow, uphill both ways…

No, actually Kurt I was weaned by my Mother on Conspiracies before you were born. She was a Birtcher from way back. I read Skousen’s “The Naked Communist” when I was a kid and still have my Mom’s first edition. I have no problem in believing in conspiracies, Kurt. I am just carefull to make sure it IS a conspiracy and not a myth that has grown to the size 9/11 has gotten. My suggestion to you is not believe EVERYTHING you read on the internet. I don’t. Study both sides. Then make a determination. That’s what I have done.


Sharon, I am hoping that you are not as steeped into the 9/11 myth that you wont ignore eveidence or reasoning that the “Dancing Israelis” is just another part of the web the “Truthers” have taken, twisted into their own interpretations, and wove it into their myth. Please read this article with an open mind Sharon. I know the Col wont. It challenges his paradigm.

Dancing Israelis

There are many claims of 9/11 foreknowledge, but perhaps the most widespread concerns the so-called "Dancing Israelis":

...a group (perhaps multiple groups) of young Israeli men, in which some where found out to be Mossad agents, were filming the Twin Towers on 9/11 before the attack and then were celebrating and taking pictures of themselves with the burning WTC in the background...
http://killtown.blogspot.com/2005/11/da ... n-911.html

This Fox News article is one of the most quoted sources of the foreknowledge claim:

Friday, September 14, 2001 "The New York Times reported Thursday that a group of five men had set up video cameras aimed at the Twin Towers prior to the attack on Tuesday, and were seen congratulating one another afterwards." - FOX
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34250,00.html

This is referring to another article, though. We browsed the New York Times archive and believe this is what Fox were talking about:

Separately, officials said a group of about five men were now under investigation in Union City, suspected of assisting the hijackers. In addition, the officials said the men had apparently set up cameras near the Hudson River and fixed them on the World Trade Center. They photographed the attacks and were said to have congratulated each other afterward, officials said.
AFTER THE ATTACKS: THE INVESTIGATION; BIN LADEN TIE CITED
By DAVID JOHNSTON AND JAMES RISEN
Published: September 13, 2001
New York Times

The setting up of the cameras “prior to the attacks” is an inference from the phrase “they photographed the attacks” in this report. It’s a reasonable literal interpretation, but that doesn’t necessarily make it true: a New York resident who took photos of what happened on 9/11 may well describe those images as “my pictures of the 9/11 attacks”, for instance, even if they didn’t include any shots of the initial plane impacts.

Even if the unnamed officials were saying the cameras were set up before the attack, these may be reports of the allegations they are investigating. The report does talk of the men “apparently” setting up cameras near the Hudson River, for instance, and that they said “said” to have congratulated each other afterwards. The report itself is very early, published on the 13th, perhaps written less than 24 hours after they were arrested, so it would be surprising if these officials had reached definitive conclusions.

Document the event

Of course it’s difficult to form meaningful conclusions by simply analysing one or two words. That is demonstrated more than adequately here:

Several of the detainees discussed their experience in America on an Israeli talk show after their return home. Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, "The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event." How did they know there would be an event to document on 9/11?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

Here it’s suggested that saying “our purpose was to document the event” is in itself somehow suspicious, that it indicates foreknowledge. Why? We’ve no idea. Here's a Florida blogger talking about a meteor strike on his property, for instance:

Yesterday a small meteorite struck the back forty of PFHQ!!!
By now you may have already heard about this on CNN or MSNBC as they both sent representatives out to our little "starstruck" bit of Florida. We are quite the celebrities ... after all, how many people have meteorites strike their property?
...
I have 3 videos, that I shot yesterday. They are a little long and I apologize for the loading time, but I wanted to document the event and share it with the world.
PureFlorida blog

Does saying "I wanted to document the event" mean the blogger knew the meteor was about to strike? Of course not. It simply means he wanted to record what had happened.
And equally, every single person who pointed a camera at the WTC on 9/11 did so because they wanted to “document the event”. The phrase does not in any sense imply that they knew what was going to happen.

This is also the opinion of Marc Levin, the director of "Protocols of Zion". His clip of the Israelis on the talk show is the one that most commonly appears on YouTube videos as "proof" of foreknowledge, yet here's how he saw it:

I talked to witnesses who saw the 5 Israelis and the NJ police officer who stopped their van. They were taken into custody, questioned and held for 10 weeks. They were eventually cleared by the FBI of any involvement in 9/11 and deported back to Israeli on immigration violations. On Israeli TV, they claimed they were merely taking pictures of a historic event. I included this sequence in the movie because I wanted to show how a real incident that raised legitimate questions could quickly mutate into so called “evidence” that the Israelis were behind the attack and not Al Qaeda. There were even some claiming the 5 Israelis were controlling the planes by remote control from New Jersey.
http://thinkfilm.blogs.com/protocols_of_zion

Eye witness

Let’s abandon the second-hand reports, then, and look at what the witness to this filming actually said. This ABC article crops up a lot:

Maria, who asked us not to use her last name, had a view of the World Trade Center from her New Jersey apartment building. She remembers a neighbor calling her shortly after the first plane hit the towers. She grabbed her binoculars and watched the destruction unfolding in lower Manhattan. But as she watched the disaster, something else caught her eye.
Maria says she saw three young men kneeling on the roof of a white van in the parking lot of her apartment building. "They seemed to be taking a movie," Maria said.
The men were taking video or photos of themselves with the World Trade Center burning in the background, she said. What struck Maria were the expressions on the men's faces. "They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me. I thought it was very strange," she said.
She found the behavior so suspicious that she wrote down the license plate number of the van and called the police. Before long, the FBI was also on the scene, and a statewide bulletin was issued on the van.
The plate number was traced to a van owned by a company called Urban Moving. Around 4 p.m. on Sept. 11, the van was spotted on a service road off Route 3, near New Jersey's Giants Stadium. A police officer pulled the van over, finding five men, between 22 and 27 years old, in the vehicle. The men were taken out of the van at gunpoint and handcuffed by police.
(ABC source)

There’s nothing here to support the foreknowledge claim. The time frame as to when she noticed them is vague, but it definitely came after the call from a neighbour, which itself followed the first plane hitting the towers.

What’s more, if you look at the full 20/20 transcript from which this story is derived, you find that Maria says she saw the van park after she’d been watching the WTC for a few minutes. And so they did not film the first impact (or ar least, not from here). The report also talks about other issues involved with this story, so we’re reproducing the whole piece:
Copyright 2002 American Broadcasting Companies, Inc.
ABC News

SHOW: 20/20 (10:00 PM ET) - ABC

June 21, 2002 Friday

HEADLINE: Five Israeli men arrested soon after 9/11 might have been working for Israeli intelligence, but likely did not know beforehand about the attacks

ANCHORS: BARBARA WALTERS; JOHN MILLER

Announcer: From Times Square in New York, Barbara Walters and John Miller.

BARBARA WALTERS, co-host: Good evening, and welcome to 20/20.
Tonight, a very important 20/20 investigation into a very ugly story that's made its way around the world since September 11th. The story is that Israel knew more than it would like to admit about the terrorist attack in this coun-try. It's a rumor, but in some Arab countries--including Saudi Arabia, which I visited earlier this year--even educated people told me that they believe it is absolutely true. So how could such a rumor take hold? And John, I know that you have been looking into this now for months.

JOHN MILLER, co-host: We have. And when you try to trace the roots of this rumor, all roads seem to lead to the arrest of of group of Israeli men on the very day of the attacks, men who seemed coincidentally to be in the right place at the right time, and behaving strangely. Why did they become the focus of months of investigation by the FBI and the CIA? Why were they repeatedly asked by the FBI if they had any advance knowledge of the attacks, and in fact, did they? Surprisingly, the tip that led to the arrests of these five men did not come from a spy satellite, it came from a New Jersey housewife.

(VO) On the morning of September 11th, Maria--who asked us not to use her last name--was home preparing for her day, when she got a call from a friend who lived upstairs in the same New Jersey high-rise.

MARIA: She was sitting when she heard a noise, at the same time she felt like it--it shook--like the building shook, she said. She called me immediately. She said, 'You know, there's--there's something wrong, look at your window by the twin towers.' So I grab my binoculars and I could see the towers from my window. And this is where I, you know, I'm looking. I saw the smoke from the top, just from the top of the towers.

MILLER: (VO) After watching for a little while, something caught Maria's at-tention in the parking lot below her window.

MARIA: Like a few minutes must have gone on, and all of a sudden down there I see this van park. And I see three guys on top of the van, and I'm trying, you know, to look at the building but what caught my attention, they seemed to be taking a movie.

MILLER: (VO) Maria says the three young men were kneeling on the roof of a white van. It was parked right here. They were taking pictures of each other with the World Trade Center burning in the background.

MARIA: And I could see that they were, like, happy, you know? They--they--they weren't--they didn't look shocked to me, you know? They didn't look shocked. I thought it was very strange.

MILLER: (VO) Maria found the behavior so suspicious she wrote down the li-cense plate number. She and her husband, Pat, called the police. Soon police and the FBI were on the scene. The license plate was traced to a van owned by a company called Urban Moving. A state-wide alarm was transmitted over the police radio. Deputy Chief ROBERT DEL PRIORE (Weehawken Police Department): It stated in--in effect, to be on the lookout for an Urban Movers van with a license plate number that was given out.

MILLER: (VO) Around 4 PM that day, this white Chevy van was stopped by police near Giants Stadium in New Jersey. Inside it were five men, all in their 20s. These grainy photos of the event were taken by a man who witnessed the scene from a nearby hotel.

(OC) The van was stopped right here. Police pulled the five men out at gun point and handcuffed them. And almost immediately, police say, there was plenty to be suspicious of. One of the men had $4700 in cash hidden in his sock. An-other was carrying two foreign passports. A box cutter was found in the van. But perhaps the biggest surprise for police was when the five men identified themselves as being Israeli.

(VO) According to Officer Scott DeCarlo's police report, one of the passen-gers told him, "We were on the West Side Highway in New York City during the in-cident," not behind Maria's apartment building in New Jersey. The driver told them, 'We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.' The men ranged in age from 22 to 27. The driver was Sivan Kurzberg. The other passengers included his brother, Paul Kurzberg, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari. The men, who all said they worked for Urban Moving, were taken to this new Jersey State Police Station and questioned by the FBI.

(OC) ABC News has learned that after the five men were taken to jail, the en-tire case was transferred out of FBI's criminal division and into its foreign counterintelligence section, which is responsible for espionage cases. One rea-son for the shift, according to our sources, is that the FBI believed Urban Mov-ing may have provided a cover for agents of Israeli intelligence. Urban Moving is owned by Dominic Suter (ph), an Israeli businessman. After the five men were arrested in one of his vans, the FBI got a warrant and searched the company's offices.

Ms. PAULINE STEPKOVICH: (ph) The FBI was here hours. Hours.

MILLER: (VO) Pauline Stepkovich, who lives right across the street from Urban Moving, watched as federal investigators went in and out of the building.

Ms. STEPKOVICH: Two SUVs were filled up with between nine and 12 boxes and computers.

MILLER: (VO) Dominic Suter's attorney confirms that the FBI removed boxes of documents and a dozen computer hard drives from Urban Moving. He insists his client answered all of the FBI's questions. But a few days later, when the FBI wanted to interview Mr. Suter again, he was gone. Our 20/20 cameras took these pictures inside Urban Moving some three months later. And as you can see, it looked like Suter shut down the business in a big hurry. Cell phones and personal effects were lying around Suter's office, the phones were still connected with hundreds of messages waiting. There were job applications to be processed, and the property of dozens of families packed in the warehouse. Dominic Suter's company closed down in such a hurry, some of their customers, like Frank Crisp (ph), were left hanging.

Mr. FRANK CRISP: They were--they were really short on the--on the phone, and it was like they wanted to get off and--and get out.

MILLER: (VO) Dominic Suter cleared out of his New Jersey home, too, and he'd put it up for sale. Suter and his family had returned to Israel. We called him there, but he refused to talk to us about Urban Moving. Was Israeli intelligence using Urban Moving as a cover?
(OC) And if not, why did the company suddenly shut down after the five em-ployees arrested? Why did the owner abruptly leave the country, leaving behind a significant investment, a thriving business, and a lot of unhappy customers? The FBI needed answers to three important questions: Who were these men? What brought them to that parking lot on the morning of September 11th? And did they have any advanced knowledge of what was going to happen that day?

Mr. STEVE GORDON: So you got a group of guys that are taking pictures on top of a roof, of the World Trade Center, they're speaking a foreign language, they got two passports on them, one's got a wad of cash on him and they've got box cutters. Now that's a scary situation.

MILLER: (VO) Steve Gordon was the attorney for the five Israeli detainees. We interviewed him back in October, shortly after 20/20 began investigating this incident. (OC) So who are these kids, and how did they get entangled in this?

Mr. GORDON: They're five young kids who--who left Israel, tried to leave a war zone, if you so will. They came to America. They came here, initially, for a vacation. They came here to work and they started work for a moving company.

MILLER: Now, the witness that we interviewed said that they were acting very strangely.

Mr. GORDON: If her story is to be believed, then of course I don't believe I nor anybody else would--would condone any type of behavior.

MARIA: You know, they're laughing. They're laughing. One of them, I no-ticed, distinctively, put his hand on top of the other guy why they're filming, on top of his shoulder.

Mr. GORDON: Indeed, I did ask them about that, and they denied celebrating, they denied rejoicing.

MILLER: So were they horsing around?

Mr. GORDON: They were not horsing around. And the very first question that I asked Mr. Ellner was, 'Tell me what--what happened.' He said, 'We were taking pictures.' Were they smiling in those photographs? Perhaps they were smiling.

MILLER: (VO) Sources tell 20/20 the FBI developed film from a camera taken from the Israelis, and that it shows the three on top of the white van were smiling and appeared to be clowning around. The five Israelis were held at this federal jail for allegedly overstaying their visas.

(OC) In fact, within two weeks, an immigration judge routinely ordered them deported. But that is when, according to sources who spoke to 20/20, the FBI and CIA put a hold on the case. And over the next two months, some of the men were held in solitary confinement, questioned repeatedly and some of them were given up to seven lie detector tests. Clearly this was more than your average immigration case.

(OC) So when they were being questioned and when they were being polygraphed, what were the questions they were being asked?

Mr. GORDON: I believe the questions surrounded what they were doing in Amer-ica, what were they--were doing on September 11th with regard to whether or not they actually had any involvement in the World Trade Center incident. They were asked questions if they had ever been approached by or hired by any non-United States intelligence community.

MILLER: (VO) Since their arrest, there has been plenty of speculation and ru-mor about who these men were and what they were doing that morning. Eventually The Forward, a respected Jewish newspaper in New York, reported that the FBI concluded that at least two of them were Mossad operatives. That is, agents of Israeli intelligence.

Mr. VINCE CANNISTRARO: When the federal investigators checked the names of the people who had been arrested through a national intelligence database, some of the names came up as hits.

MILLER: (VO) Vince Cannistraro is a former chief of operations for counter-terrorism with the Central Intelligence Agency. Now he's a consultant with ABC News. He says many in the US intelligence community believe that some of the men arrested in the white van were in the US working for Israeli intelligence. They speculate that Urban Moving was being used by Israel as an intelligence front.

Mr. CANNISTRARO: ...set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an op-eration, an intelligence operation, against radical Islamics in the area, par-ticularly in the New Jersey/New York area.

MILLER: (VO) Under the scenario, the spying operation was not aimed against the United States, but at penetrating or monitoring radical fund-raising and support networks in Muslim communities like Patterson, New Jersey, which was one of the places where several of the hijackers lived in the months prior to 9/11.

Mr. CANNISTRARO: Israeli government has been concerned about activity of radical Islamic groups in the United States. There could be a support apparatus to Hamas and Islamic Jihad, two groups which are conducting the majority of the suicide bombings in Israel.

MILLER: (VO) The suspicion that some of the young men might be with Israeli intelligence, coupled with the account of their odd behavior on the van, raised serious questions for investigators.

Mr. CANNISTRARO: The fear of some of the FBI investigators in this particular case was that this group had some advanced knowledge of what was going to happen on 9/11. And once they understood that there was an Israeli connection--an Is-raeli intelligence connection--they became very disturbed, because the implica-tion was that the Israelis may have had some advanced knowledge of the events of 9/11 and hadn't told us.

MILLER: (VO) For the FBI, deciphering the truth about the five Israelis proved to be difficult. One of them, Paul Kurzberg, refused to take a lie de-tector test. But after 10 weeks in jail he did take the polygraph and failed it. One of his lawyers later told us Kurzberg had been reluctant to take the test because he had once work for Israeli intelligence in another country. Later, he took a second polygraph test. His lawyer says the results were more favorable. Sources tell 20/20, after high-level negotiations between Israeli and US gov-ernment officials, a settlement was worked out. And after 71 days, the five Is-raelis were taken out of jail, put on a plane and deported back home. 20/20 traveled to Israel to try and meet the five young men and ask them, were they part of an Israeli intelligence operation in the United States. We went to a small town outside of Jerusalem to meet Paul Kurzberg.

Mr. PAUL KURZBERG: (Through translator) I went to work over there because, I don't know, the situation here is not the best.

MILLER: (VO) This is Kurzberg's younger brother, Sivan, who was one of the three men on top of the van that morning.

Mr. SIVAN KURZBERG: (Through translator) They took away two months of my life. During that time I was supposed to be on a trip that I had planned when I started my military service.

MILLER: (VO) Although Paul and Sivan would not talk with us about the inci-dent, Sivan and two of the other detainees did go on an Israeli talk show after their return. Oded Ellner denied they were laughing or happy that today.

Mr. ODED ELLNER: (Through translator, from Israeli talk show) Nothing of the kind, the fact of the matter is, we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event.

MILLER: (VO) Ellner also complained that they had been mistreated and sub-jected to repeated interrogations.

Mr. ELLNER: (Through translator, from Israeli talk show) And at that point, we were taken for another round of questioning, this time related to our alleg-edly being members of Mossad.

MILLER: (VO) Their attorney in Israel is Ram Horvitz.

Mr. RAM HORVITZ: This story about the five boys being connected with Israeli intelligence is the most stupid and ridiculous story that I ever heard, and it is nonsense. I don't know who invented this story.

Mr. MARK REGAV: These men were not involved in any way in any intelligence operation in the United States.

MILLER: (VO) Mark Regav, the spokesman for the Israeli embassy in Washington, goes even further to say the issue was never even discussed with the US offi-cials.

Mr. REGAV: These five Israelis were not involved in any intelligence opera-tion in the United States. And the Americans, the American intelligence au-thorities, have never raised this issue with us. The story is simply false.

MILLER: (VO) Source tell 20/20 there is still debate within the FBI over whether or not the young men were spies. But many in the US intelligence commu-nity believe that some of the men were engaged in espionage for Israel. However, sources also tell us, even if they were spies, there was no evidence to conclude they had advanced knowledge of the terrorist attacks of 9/11.

Mr. CANNISTRARO: The investigation, at the end of the day, after all of the polygraphs, all of the field work, all of the cross-checking, the intelligence work, concluded that they probably did not have advanced knowledge of 9/11.

WALTERS: John, so the FBI has concluded that these men did not have any ad-vanced knowledge of the attack on the Trade Center.

MILLER: And they seem to be comfort with that conclusion.

WALTERS: OK. Then what were they doing looking at the World Trade Center then?

MILLER: They say that they read about the attack on the Internet, went to the roof of the moving company, couldn't really see it, and then went to the higher ground to get a better view and to take pictures.

WALTERS: Well, all right, but why were they smiling?

MILLER: Well, that's been the most difficult question. And the only explana-tions we've had, both from the lawyer and from the Israeli government, is chalk-ing that up just to immature conduct.

WALTERS: But the bottom line is, that there is no evidence that these men knew about the attacks in advance.

MILLER: No. And I think the FBI and the CIA spent a great deal of time try-ing to drill down to that answer and found no proof of that.

WALTERS: Well, I hope that we have put this rumor to rest once and for all.
MILLER: We've certainly tried.

WALTERS: We'll be right back.

This doesn’t completely end the issue, as there are other reports of them “dancing” prior to this (also denied). Their lawyer said:

On the day of the disaster, three of the five boys went up on the roof of the building where the company office is located," said Gordon. "I'm not sure if they saw the twin towers collapse, but, in any event, they photographed the ruins right afterwards. One of the neighbors who saw them called the police and claimed they were posing, dancing and laughing, against the background of the burning towers. The five denied dancing. I presume the neighbor was not near them and does not understand Hebrew. Furthermore, the neighbor complained that the cheerful gang on the roof spoke Arabic. As far as I understand it, that neighbor has had previous problems with the company, and she could have been waiting for an opportunity to avenge the owners. Anyhow, the three left the roof, took an Urban truck, and drove to a parking lot, located about a five-minute drive from the offices. They parked, stood on the roof of the truck to get a better view of the destroyed towers and took photographs. A woman who was in the building above the lot testified that she saw them smiling and exchanging high-fives. She and another neighbor called the police and reported on Middle-Eastern looking people dancing on the truck. They copied and reported the license plates.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/02/03/WTC/spies10.html

However, there’s still no witness evidence to support the claim that they were set up and filming before the attacks occurred.

The 9-11 Conspiracies

Channel 4 in the UK interviewed Maria, three of the Israelis and others involved for their documentary "The 9/11 Conspiracies". They reported receiving information that Urban Moving was a front for Israeli intelligence, but repeated the Israeli's story that they didn't arrive and begin filming until after the attacks had begun.

Related claims

This page is intended to focus solely on the foreknowledge issue, but plainly (as you can see above) there are other considerations, too. By all means read the Killtown article, WhatReallyHappened page and anything else you can find for more on these, but be sure you check sources carefully. We’ve seen this story used as evidence that the Israelis’ van contained explosives, for instance:

Three arrested with van full of explosives
4:27:11 AM
Reports from New York are saying three people have been arrested with a van of explosives.
The van was stopped along the New Jersey turn-pike near the George Washington Bridge.
It was not clear why police stopped the van but when they did they found it was laden down with tonnes of explosives.
http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/200 ... y23429.asp

But mysteriously this correction from the same source, issued less than 8 minutes after the first story, doesn’t get the same attention:

Police confirm arrests but deny explosives find
4:34:43 AM
NYPD officers have confirmed the arrest of three men on the New Jersey turn-pike.
However officials denied any explosives were found in the van.
Officials declined to say why exactly the men had been arrested.
http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/200 ... y23430.asp

More on this here.
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/A_tru ... explosives

Question everything you read, then (even here). And we may return to this topic at a future date.

Footnote

One curious footnote to this story appeared three years later, when four of the Israelis filed a lawsuit against the Department of Justice:

September 14, 2004
Four young Israelis who were arrested by American federal agents on 9/11 have filed a law suit against the Department of Justice in the United States District Court in New York.
The law suit alleges that law enforcement officers and officials of the Bureau of Prisons unlawfully incarcerated them for an extended period of time and violated their civil rights during their more than two month imprisonment in the Metropolitan Detention Center (MDC) in 2001. The four plaintiffs claim that they were held incommunicado without access to attorneys or family, subjected to rough interrogations, physically assaulted, deprived of sleep and subjected to racists taunting by guards.

The law suit seeks millions of dollars in compensation.

The four plaintiffs are represented by Israeli attorney Nitsana Darshan-Leitner, Esq. and New York attorney Robert Tolchin, Esq.

The Israelis were working for a New Jersey moving company when their truck was stopped by police near the George Washington Bridge. When it was discovered that they possessed foreign drivers licenses, the nervous officers placed them under arrest as suspects in the 9/11 terrorist attacks. They were handed over to federal agents for weeks of interrogations.

Following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, conspiracy theorists in the Arab and Islamic world spread reports that Israel was behind the terrorist atrocities. Islamic and neo-Nazi groups pointed to the arrests of the Israelis as "proof" that the Mossad and Israel had perpetrated the attack on the World Trade Center. Hate groups around the world posted hundreds of stories centering on the arrests of the Israelis and their alleged role in the 9/11 attacks. The fact that the four were eventually cleared of all suspicions and released did not put the libels to rest and stories about the Israelis are still regularly appearing on the internet.

American human rights groups have charged that the Bureau of Prisons violated the civil liberties of those detained by the United States following 9/11. Following an internal investigation the Department of Justice released a report in June 2003 which, in part, found:

"the evidence indicates a pattern of physical and verbal abuse by some correctional officers at the MDC against some September 11 detainees, particularly during the first months after the attack."

According to the plaintiffs' Israeli counsel Nitsana Darshan-Leitner: "The infamous arrest of these young Israelis on 9/11 has been used by anti-Semites worldwide as `proof' of Israel's involvement in the World Trade Center attack. Our clients are seeking compensation for the harm they suffered in the MDC by prison officials. In addition, the law suit will serve as an important public forum to debunk the lie that Israel or the Mossad was behind the 9/11 terrorist attacks. It will show that there was no Jewish conspiracy as the Arab world continues to claim and put an end to this racist blood libel."
http://www.kokhavivpublications.com/200 ... 41656.html

September 14, 2004

Four Israelis arrested in the United States on September 11, 2001, have filed a multimillion-dollar civil lawsuit in the US District Court in New York against United States Attorney-General John Ashcroft and wardens of the Federal Bureau of Prisons.

The suit, filed Monday, alleges that their two-month detention was illegal and that during that time they were physically abused and their civil rights were violated.

The Attorney General's Office said it would only comment on the case in court.

According to their Israeli attorney, Nitsana Darshan-Leitner, Israelis Yaron Shmuel, Omer Gavriel Marmari, and Silvan and Paul Kurzberg were working for a New Jersey moving company when their truck was stopped by police near the George Washington Bridge. Upon seeing that they held foreign driver's licenses, the officer arrested them as suspects in the September 11 attack.

"The four plaintiffs claim that they were held incommunicado without access to attorneys or family, subjected to rough interrogations, physically assaulted, deprived of sleep and subjected to racist taunting by guards," said Darshan-Leitner.

In the post-September 11 panic, their basic rights were ignored even though they signed papers agreeing to immediate deportation and had plane tickets, said New York attorney Robert Tolchin. According to the complaint, some 1,200 men from the Middle East, South Asia and elsewhere who were not US citizens and who appeared to be Arab or Muslim were held on suspicion of being terrorist.

Their detention was "often based on vague suspicions rooted in racial, religious, ethnic, and/or national origin stereotypes rather than in hard facts," according to the complaint. Non-Muslim or non-Israeli detainees were not treated so harshly.

"They were never charged with a crime, they were detained so that the FBI could investigate whether maybe they had done something," said Tolchin.

Four pages of the complaint list the abuses the four Israelis suffered in detention, including failure to be provided with adequate food, medical attention and toiletries. They were held in solitary confinement and denied religious expression.

"Plaintiffs were disciplined for attempting to pray in their cells. Plaintiff Yaron Shmuel was forced out of his cell, thrown against walls and placed in a cell without a mattress, sheets or blanket as a punishment for having prayed out loud," alleged the complaint.
"One of the defendant guards told the plaintiff Yaron Shmuel that he should commit suicide because 'we need to kill all the Jews.'

"The plaintiffs were often beaten by the defendant guards, including cuffing hands behind the plaintiff's backs, twisting arms, kicks to the ribs, and sitting on the plaintiffs while they lay on a metal bed," alleged the complaint.

"The plaintiffs were subjected to a game that the defendant guards called 'Ping Pong,' in which the guards would throw inmates between each other and against walls."
In this case, "the abuse started from the top," said Tolchin.

The suit blames Ashcroft for authorizing and condoning "the unreasonable and excessively harsh conditions under which the plaintiffs were detained" in violation of the Fourth Amendment.

According to the suit, the four should not have been held because Israel is a close ally of the United States. "As Israelis and as Jews, plaintiffs themselves are sworn enemies of al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden."

A similar suit in the same court has been filed by the Center for Constitutional Rights on behalf of Ibrahim Turkmen and other Muslim men similarly held. Tolchin said their case is likely to be viewed in light of decisions made in the Turkmen case.
Jerusalem Post source

Paul Kurzberg, an Israeli from Pardess Hanna, was in the office of his New Jersey moving company on Sept. 11, 2001, when the first plane hit the World Trade Center.

Like many Israeli movers in the New York area, Kurzberg, who was in his late 20s, was not legally authorized to work in the United States.

But on Sept. 11, that thought was distant from his mind as he and his friends piled into a company van after the second plane hit the World Trade Center to find a better vantage point to photograph the historic terrorist attack.

It proved to be a critical mistake.

Caught in a traffic jam near the George Washington Bridge, which connects northern New Jersey to Manhattan, the Israelis hailed a police officer to ask directions to Brooklyn. The cops pulled the five Israelis from the vehicle, drew their guns and ordered the men to lie on the ground, according to the Israelis’ account.

It was the beginning of a nearly two-month ordeal, the Israelis said, that landed them first in a local jail and then in solitary confinement in a Brooklyn prison, subjected them to physical and verbal abuse and ended in their deportation to Israel.

Now four of the Israelis are suing, demanding justice and compensation in a lawsuit filed Monday, Sept. 13, against U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, FBI Director Robert Mueller, the director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons and a host of wardens, police officers and corrections officers involved in their arrest and imprisonment.

“The infamous arrest of these young Israelis on 9/11 has been used by anti-Semites worldwide as ‘proof’ of Israel’s involvement in the World Trade Center attack,” said Nitsana Darshan-Leitner, the Israeli lawyer representing the four Israeli plaintiffs.

“Our clients are seeking compensation for the harm they suffered in the Metropolitan Detention Center by prison officials,” she said.

The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Brooklyn, alleges that the Israelis were arrested without probable cause; subjected to harsh and unreasonable conditions; penalized for trying to observe Jewish traditions and were held far longer than necessary.

A spokesman for the Department of Justice, Charles Miller, declined to comment, saying, “Our response would be filed in court.”

A spokesman for the Bureau of Prisons did not respond to a request for comment.
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/mo ... story.html

We've not yet discovered what happened to the case, and the lack of information suggests it never reached court. Still, bringing the case at all is hardly what you'd expect if these really were Mossad agents somehow connected to 9/11. Surely three years on they'd want to keep their heads down, not re-open the whole affair?

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Dancing_Israelis

Facts;
1.These guys were NOT Mossad agents but illegal aliens from Israel who worked for a moving Co.

2.They did not start filming until AFTER the planes hit not before.

3.They DID celebrate, but not because it was a successful secret operation but because now America finally found out what it was like to live in terror as they had done ALL of their lives. Not very wise to do right after an attack. DOH!

Lets look at it logically too. Do you really think Mossad agents would expose their operation by publically FILMING their actual operation? How stupid is that?

Also why bother filming it when you could turn on any TV station in the country, and the world for that matter, and get hours of footage of the planes hitting and the destruction afterward? Pretty silly when you think about it. Sharon, do not take the twisted version of the “Truthers”. Please research this stuff out.



Turning On the Light Amongst the Darkness
Old Man Dalton

[Kurt]

Yeah us old farts just can't grasp things like you young bucks with steel traps for brains when it comes to various conspiracies. Thats why the old foggy and myself need you youngsters to continue educating us on all your multitudes of proof when it comes to these things. Just think of it as a service you are rendering to the feeble minded.

I love this response, I laughed out loud. Thanks.

I really do like you Mark,Shadow, OMD and the many others I might disagree with on varying issues, you know that right? I think we all have some good things to share, and I have learned things on both sides. Thanks.

[Kurt]

Hey you little ‘wipper snapper’. Let me tell you I walked 10 miles to school, bare foot, in the snow, uphill both ways…

No, actually Kurt I was weaned by my Mother on Conspiracies before you were born. She was a Birtcher from way back. I read Skousen’s “The Naked Communist” when I was a kid and still have my Mom’s first edition. I have no problem in believing in conspiracies, Kurt. I am just carefull to make sure it IS a conspiracy and not a myth that has grown to the size 9/11 has gotten. My suggestion to you is not believe EVERYTHING you read on the internet. I don’t. Study both sides. Then make a determination. That’s what I have done.

I didn't realize how much snow there is in Las Vegas.

I really do appreciate you OMD, and thank you for most everything you post here!! I'll try to be a better wipper snapper from now on.

[ready2prepare]

Thanks for your reply and posting, OMD.

This just goes to show, as I've been told so many times:

"There are 2 sides to every story, and
somewhere IN BETWEEN lies the truth."

Ah...and that's where it gets interesting.

Best Regards,
Sharon (Making the Best of Basics) in Mississippi

[Col. Flagg]

From My Poor Misguided Friend, Col Flagg;
It's an actual special weapons manufacturing plant in the Israeli desert Dalton.

No, Col. This thread is about an article from an Anti-Semetic that IT is an “Israel's Super-Thermite Lab”. Of course as any ‘dyed in the wool’ “Truther”, you accepted this allegation without any evidence or back checking. This is what is wrong with you guys. Accept any absurdity as FACT.

Dalton, it is a special weapons lab! Yes, the article says super thermite is manufactured there without any evidence backing it up, but I already admitted that and that I was merely posting the article as a possibility... not to indict Israel and use this article as proof. I'm also getting a kick out of your accusations of accepting allegations without any evidence to back it up... this is precisely what you have been doing with 9/11 all along in your quest to discredit the truth... buying junk science that any debunker dreams up to satisfy your denial of what really happened. Sorry old man, but we've got science, physics and scientific evidence on our side... all you 'debunkers' have are fruitless attempts to discredit scientific evidence with theories and junk science. You need to step back and think about your attitude here... no proof has ever been offered that bin Laden and 19 Arabs pulled off 9/11... heck, bin Laden is not even wanted by the FBI for it, yet, you continue to buy the official story hook, line and sinker, even in the face of scientific and factual evidence that proves three skyscrapers were demolished on 9/11. I ask you... who's the fool here and which one is the conspiracy theory?

I wasn't aware Bollyn was an anti-Semite until after I had posted the article and did some research into it. My bad, I admit.

No, unfortunately, this has shown how closed-minded you are.

Dalton, I guarantee I've spent a lot more time researching 9/11 than you have. I'm aware of every aspect to both sides of the issue and I've got to tell you... anyone who believes in the official conspiracy theory (that an old man on dialysis in a cave in Afghanistan) and 19 Arabs pulled off 9/11 all by themselves... is either in complete denial that it could have been an inside job or they've got rocks in their head.

My Ignored Question;
How has Israel benefited from 9/11? I have shown, albeit with sarcasm, that this is far from the truth.

Col Flagg Powerful Rejoinder;
Huh

Man, Col, you got me there. That three letter word PROVES without a doubt that Israel benefitted from 9/11. I just wasted my time coming up with facts to show how they really didn’t benefit. What an idiot I am. "Huh"

Dalton, if you are truly unaware of how Israel has benefited from 9/11, then we shouldn't even be discussing this topic because you've got a LOT of homework to do.

I recognize that Israel is in a life or death struggle, but to think that it is the victim all the time which is only defending itself from rogue terrorist groups or that it does not engage in covert or evil operations for its own benefit... is naive. Let's just agree to disagree and move on (again).

No, I am sure part of the reason Israel still exists is BECAUSE of the secret operations of Mossad.

That's probably true... but Israel (Mossad) has also been involved in false flag ops in the past. I'll bet you're not even aware of this...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html

Facts;
1.These guys were NOT Mossad agents but illegal aliens from Israel who worked for a moving Co.

The fact is, they were from Israel and had set up their camera and trained it on the twin towers BEFORE the planes struck. Eyewitnesses have testified to this Dalton.

2.They did not start filming until AFTER the planes hit not before.

Wrong... the NY Times ran an article indicating that eyewitnesses noticed them train their cameras on the towers before the planes struck. Furthermore, it was later confirmed that the five detained Israelis were in fact Mossad agents. They were held in custody for 71 days before being quietly released.

3.They DID celebrate, but not because it was a successful secret operation but because now America finally found out what it was like to live in terror as they had done ALL of their lives. Whatever. Talk about absurdity.

Lets look at it logically too. Do you really think Mossad agents would expose their operation by publically FILMING their actual operation? How stupid is that?

Tell me who these men thought would be filming the WTC's before the first plane struck? The only footage of the first plane hitting the north tower is from the Naudet brothers. Maybe they wanted their work on film, I don't know?

Also why bother filming it when you could turn on any TV station in the country, and the world for that matter, and get hours of footage of the planes hitting and the destruction afterward? Pretty silly when you think about it.

Only the Naudet brothers have film footage of the north tower being hit (and these 5 men)... that is rare footage.

Sharon, do not take the twisted version of the “Truthers”. Please research this stuff out.

'Twisted version'? You need to take a good, hard look at what your version demands intellectually.

[shadow]

I really do like you Mark,Shadow, OMD and the many others I might disagree with on varying issues, you know that right? I think we all have some good things to share, and I have learned things on both sides. Thanks.

Thanks Kurt and I enjoy your comments too, but please don't lump me in with that old generation group. It would be fun to sit on my porch and yell at the neighbor kids or sit back in my recliner and watch CNN all day while sucking on a Werthers but I have things to do. Plus I still have real teeth and eat dinner after 6, not before 4. I don't drive a Buick. My pants don't go up to my armpits either (I realize Mark needs to wear loose clothing to hide his colostomy bag so I don't want to be tough on him, but OMD has no excuse). Oh, I also don't believe the official government story on 911.

[Mark]

Okay Shadow you turncoat thats the last time I tell you in confidence anything about my normal bodily functions or lack thereof! I guess you find out who your real friends are when you divulge sensitive information and see it spread around at the speed of the internet. I'm a bigger man than you though Bro. so I won't say a thing about the wifes dresses.

And while we are on the subject of 9-11 since when did I say that I believed everything the govt. has said about 9-11? I don't trust the govt. to tell me the truth about much of anything. I also don't believe every conspiratorial storyline that comes down the internet pike at the speed of sound. Ever hear of CYA and gross incompetence? There was a buttload of both going on as relating to 9-11 govt versions. That doesn't mean though that the inside job theory holds all the cards either. A little common sense can go a long way in decifering the truth.

[shadow]

And while we are on the subject of 9-11 since when did I say that I believed everything the govt. has said about 9-11? I don't trust the govt. to tell me the truth about much of anything. I also don't believe every conspiratorial storyline that comes down the internet pike at the speed of sound. Ever hear of CYA and gross incompetence? There was a buttload of both going on as relating to 9-11 govt versions. That doesn't mean though that the inside job theory holds all the cards either. A little common sense can go a long way in decifering the truth.

I couldn't have said it better my friend!

PS, I dont' remember telling you about the dresses. Now I'm outed
Hey, it's 4:20, how was Sizzler?

[armedtotheteeth]

Hey, it's 4:20, how was Sizzler?

[ready2prepare]

OMD said:
Sharon, do not take the twisted version of the
“Truthers”. Please research this stuff out.

Wow...this is beginning to sound almost like a religious discussion.

Just yesterday I had the opportunity to chat by phone with an old
high-school friend with whom I had lost contact for 40 years. Back
then she was a Baptist and I was a religious cynic. Yesterday I found
out that she is still a Baptist and she found out I am a member of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

That led to a tense moment which fortunately passed quickly,
but she could have just as easily said similar words to me about
the "Mormons" and their "twisted version" of things...

So what am I getting at here?

Simply, that there's more than one way to look at things, and
things are not always what they seem...

It all depends on one's perspective, or "frame of reference" or
"lense" through which one is viewing things, also referred to as
one's "paradigm."

Two people can take exactly the same "facts" and reach
entirely opposite conclusions based on their individual
paradigms.

Which is why (IMHO) it is so important for us to recognize that
"facts" are always subject to interpretation, and that we CAN
be mislead if we depend on "facts" alone to guide our research.

So yes, be assured, OMD that I have done (and continue to do)
my research, relying on the Spirit to guide me through the
morass of facts to the truth--about 911 and everything else.

And if getting to the truth requires that I drop a few old beliefs
and prejudices along the way which have clouded the lense
through which I view things, then so be it.

That's why I tend to offer information rather than "facts" and
invite people to form their own conclusions.

Best Regards,
Sharon (Making the Best of Basics) in Mississippi

[Col. Flagg]

And while we are on the subject of 9-11 since when did I say that I believed everything the govt. has said about 9-11? I don't trust the govt. to tell me the truth about much of anything. I also don't believe every conspiratorial storyline that comes down the internet pike at the speed of sound.

'Conspiratorial storyline'? Mark, Mark, Mark... 9/11 went from a conspiracy 'theory' to a conspiracy fact a long time ago! There is so much overwhelming evidence, both scientific and coincidental, it makes your head spin. To be honest, how anyone can still maintain it was all bin Laden and 19 Arabs with boxcutters means one of two things... denial or ignorance, plain and simple. Sorry.

Ever hear of CYA and gross incompetence? There was a buttload of both going on as relating to 9-11 govt versions. That doesn't mean though that the inside job theory holds all the cards either. A little common sense can go a long way in decifering the truth.

Is there incompetence in government? Absolutely. However, with 9/11, you had massive complicity.

[Oldemandalton]

From Kurt;
I didn't realize how much snow there is in Las Vegas.

I really do appreciate you OMD, and thank you for most everything you post here!! I'll try to be a better wipper snapper from now on.

No problem dude. I love you too man.(sniffle sniffle)


OMD

[ready2prepare]

(Group hugs all around).

Now...that's much better!

Best Regards,
Sharon (Making the Best of Basics) in Mississippi

[Oldemandalton]

From Mark
And while we are on the subject of 9-11 since when did I say that I believed everything the govt. has said about 9-11? I don't trust the govt. to tell me the truth about much of anything. I also don't believe every conspiratorial storyline that comes down the internet pike at the speed of sound. Ever hear of CYA and gross incompetence? There was a buttload of both going on as relating to 9-11 govt versions. That doesn't mean though that the inside job theory holds all the cards either. A little common sense can go a long way in decifering the truth.

Amen, Brother.

Wow...this is beginning to sound almost like a religious discussion.

Just yesterday I had the opportunity to chat by phone with an old
high-school friend with whom I had lost contact for 40 years. Back
then she was a Baptist and I was a religious cynic. Yesterday I found
out that she is still a Baptist and she found out I am a member of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

That led to a tense moment which fortunately passed quickly,
but she could have just as easily said similar words to me about
the "Mormons" and their "twisted version" of things...

So what am I getting at here?

Simply, that there's more than one way to look at things, and
things are not always what they seem...

It all depends on one's perspective, or "frame of reference" or
"lense" through which one is viewing things, also referred to as
one's "paradigm."

Two people can take exactly the same "facts" and reach
entirely opposite conclusions based on their individual
paradigms.

Which is why (IMHO) it is so important for us to recognize that
"facts" are always subject to interpretation, and that we CAN
be mislead if we depend on "facts" alone to guide our research.

So yes, be assured, OMD that I have done (and continue to do)
my research, relying on the Spirit to guide me through the
morass of facts to the truth--about 911 and everything else.

And if getting to the truth requires that I drop a few old beliefs
and prejudices along the way which have clouded the lense
through which I view things, then so be it.

That's why I tend to offer information rather than "facts" and
invite people to form their own conclusions.

Best Regards,
Sharon (Making the Best of Basics) in Mississippi

Thanks Sharon. I agree totally with what you have said. Some of my beliefs have changed from discussions on this Forum. It is a great place to exchange ideas and info. It is threads like this that show how absurd people are in their “beliefs”. They will take any “fact” that they find on the internet as “truth”. It gets batted around the internet so much that lies become “fact” and gullible or folks with not enough time to check the lies believe them as truth. THIS is what we have to be leery of.

9/11 is a perfect example. My Friend, Col Flagg, gives me scientific “proof” that the Twin Towers were demoed and ignores all of the evidence I find on the contrary. In this ‘Information Age’ we are deluged with tons of FALSE information. It is up to us to determine which is false and which is not. This is very time consuming so many are unable to do so. This thread is a perfect example along with the ‘Dancing Israelis’. Things get put into this raging river of information and get accepted by those who dip their cups into it. We need to be more carful in what we accept return back into the information river.

OMD

[Col. Flagg]

Mark, Dalton... I'm sorry for coming across so strongly RE 9/11... I need to respect your views and opinions more... I tend to get frustrated when others can't see what I do, but that's probably owing to all of the research I've done over the past 4 years on the subject. You guys are brothers to me and we are on the same side in this fight to save our country from conspiring men who want to transform it and us into something awful... that's all that matters right now. We need to stop Obama and what he and the evil men pulling his strings behind the scenes want to do to us, although, you could make an argument that most of the damage has already been done. These 'Czars' he is appointing should scare everyone to death because these are guys who are flat out commies who want to turn the U.S. into Nazi Germany (or worse). This Van Jones character he has appointed as his 'green' Czar attended Jeremiah Wright's church and he sounds just like him in scolding America and calling for it to be damned. Worse yet, his new FCC guy loves what Hugo Chavez has done in Venezuela in suppressing dissenting voices and shutting down radio and TV stations critical of his 'government'. The Obama administration is moving faster than Hugo Chavez is in Venezuela to transform the U.S. into a fascist communist state. I hope Beck is watching his back and has plenty of bodyguards.

[p51-mustang]

Mark's colostomy bag has this weird saying on the side of it. Not sure what it means...

“Caution: Bush foreign policy being prepared”

[p51-mustang]

9/11 is a perfect example. My Friend, Col Flagg, gives me scientific “proof” that the Twin Towers were demoed and ignores all of the evidence I find on the contrary. In this ‘Information Age’ we are deluged with tons of FALSE information. It is up to us to determine which is false and which is not. This is very time consuming so many are unable to do so. This thread is a perfect example along with the ‘Dancing Israelis’. Things get put into this raging river of information and get accepted by those who dip their cups into it. We need to be more carful in what we accept return back into the information river.

Good points OMD. What do you have to say about the fake Bin ladens I posted on page one of this thread? They are pretty hard to argue with. Why would the CIA put out false info and make up bogus videos of supposed 9-11 criminal Bin Laden if the official story is true and he and his buddies pulled this whole thing off? I would really like to hear your take on that.

I'm sure the govt' has some good reason for making fake videos and lying to us right?

[Mark]

Mark, Dalton... I'm sorry for coming across so strongly RE 9/11... I need to respect your views and opinions more... I tend to get frustrated when others can't see what I do, but that's probably owing to all of the research I've done over the past 4 years on the subject. You guys are brothers to me and we are on the same side in this fight to save our country from conspiring men who want to transform it and us into something awful... that's all that matters right now. We need to stop Obama and what he and the evil men pulling his strings behind the scenes want to do to us, although, you could make an argument that most of the damage has already been done. These 'Czars' he is appointing should scare everyone to death because these are guys who are flat out commies who want to turn the U.S. into Nazi Germany (or worse). This Van Jones character he has appointed as his 'green' Czar attended Jeremiah Wright's church and he sounds just like him in scolding America and calling for it to be damned. Worse yet, his new FCC guy loves what Hugo Chavez has done in Venezuela in suppressing dissenting voices and shutting down radio and TV stations critical of his 'government'. The Obama administration is moving faster than Hugo Chavez is in Venezuela to transform the U.S. into a fascist communist state. I hope Beck is watching his back and has plenty of bodyguards.

Now THAT is something that we are in 100% agreement of my friend. The road ahead will be filled with many challenges and heartaches and we as Saints must stand together as we face this battle for the survival of this great Republic. The light of freedom will continue to burn in every patriots heart regardless of what happens with this govt. With the Lords help we will be victorious of that I am sure.

[Oldemandalton]

From My Friend The Col;
Mark, Dalton... I'm sorry for coming across so strongly RE 9/11... I need to respect your views and opinions more... I tend to get frustrated when others can't see what I do, but that's probably owing to all of the research I've done over the past 4 years on the subject. You guys are brothers to me and we are on the same side in this fight to save our country from conspiring men who want to transform it and us into something awful... that's all that matters right now. We need to stop Obama and what he and the evil men pulling his strings behind the scenes want to do to us, although, you could make an argument that most of the damage has already been done. These 'Czars' he is appointing should scare everyone to death because these are guys who are flat out commies who want to turn the U.S. into Nazi Germany (or worse). This Van Jones character he has appointed as his 'green' Czar attended Jeremiah Wright's church and he sounds just like him in scolding America and calling for it to be damned. Worse yet, his new FCC guy loves what Hugo Chavez has done in Venezuela in suppressing dissenting voices and shutting down radio and TV stations critical of his 'government'. The Obama administration is moving faster than Hugo Chavez is in Venezuela to transform the U.S. into a fascist communist state. I hope Beck is watching his back and has plenty of bodyguards.

I am with you 100% on this one buddy. The ‘Democratic Revolution’ Obama and his people are trying to push through is way more important to me than nano-thermite and the speed of gravity. I just couldn’t let pass lies spread by bigots, not that you are one Col, I am sure you are not. What the Communists and Progressives are doing is way more important than 9/11 and if they succeed we will not be able to recognize this country. We should be ‘9/12’ people not ‘9/10ers’ as Glenn says.


OMD

[Oldemandalton]

From My Friend P-51;
Good points OMD. What do you have to say about the fake Bin ladens I posted on page one of this thread? They are pretty hard to argue with. Why would the CIA put out false info and make up bogus videos of supposed 9-11 criminal Bin Laden if the official story is true and he and his buddies pulled this whole thing off? I would really like to hear your take on that.

I'm sure the govt' has some good reason for making fake videos and lying to us right?

Here is a good article on the ‘fake bin Ladens’. It brings up very good arguments and questions. Please read it and tell me what you think, P-51. To see the pictures and video you’ll have to go to this link; http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Confession_video

Here are some points they make;
1.People NOT in the Bush Admin say it is not a fake.
2.Others in the video are major players in Al Qaida.
3.Takes up the ring and handedness questions.
4.Documents other confessions by bin Laden

Confession video

Background
In December 2001 the US released a video claimed to be of bin Laden, talking about the 9/11 attacks. CNN would later report that "bin Laden brags in Arabic that he knew about them beforehand and says the destruction went beyond his hopes. He says the attacks 'benefited Islam greatly.'". The same article said "[t]he Bush administration hopes the tape will convince skeptics, particularly in the Muslim and Arab worlds, of bin Laden's complicity in the attacks", and offered some evidence of its initial success:

Raghida Dergham of the Arabic-language newspaper Al-Hayat said the tape is "a strong piece of evidence." "It's not going to convince everyone. You will always have some skeptics out there. But it will strengthen the view of those who have thought all along that bin Laden and al Qaeda had been involved," Dergham said. "I think that the level of denial will decrease."

You can view a low resolution version of the tape below, as the first option in the Videos section.

It didn't take long for people to start saying this tape was a fake, though, and not just a few individuals on conspiracy message boards, either. Journalist Robert Fisk delivered an early and emphatic verdict:

Bin Laden in Jazeerah tape on the left. Who is this guy on the right pictured in the CIA released video pretending to be Bin Laden? Any fool with eyes can see they are not the same person.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/faked_video_inin.htm

Others soon followed suit, often using the same image from the US tape as a comparison, and generally taking the line that it's utterly impossible that the video could be of bin Laden. 911Research said "Osama bin Laden would need morphing super-powers to be the man in the confession video", for instance; Prison Planet stated "the man in the video looks nothing like Bin Laden", and message board and blog comments were harsher still: "You literally have to be blind not to see that the man in the video is not Bin Laden.".

Further arguments appeared. The man in the video wore a gold ring, for example, while the real bin Laden did not. He writes with his right hand, but the FBI say bin Laden is left-handed. It's an obvious fake, we're told. But is that really true?

Further images
The image used by Fisk regularly appears elsewhere to discredit the tape, however it's worth bearing in mind that this comes from a very low resolution, 4 frames-per-second RealMedia file. It's extremely poor quality, and there are other stills available.


Does this bin Laden really look so "fat"? We'd say not, and further clues appeared with the release of a high-resolution video clip in an exhibit to the Moussaoui trial (see it in full in the Videos section below).

This image, for instance, looks like the one used to create the "fatty bin Laden" picture used by Fisk and others.



Yet this one is from the very same clip:



Crop the face from that clip, then place it top left with three accepted bin Laden images (we've resized and mirrored a couple of these but otherwise left them untouched) and you get something like this:



The photos are taken from slightly different angles, the resolution and lighting is worst in the video shot, but this is no longer a "fat" bin Laden: if anything, the video image looks thinner than the others. But otherwise it bears a much stronger resemblance to the other shots, and requires far more effort to dismiss.

Another clue appears in the full video, when bin Laden arrives. Reports on his height vary - anything from "just over 6 feet" to "6 feet six inches" - but it's generally accepted that he's tall. And sure enough, we can see the confession video man duck before passing through a doorway:



And these aren't the only reasons to consider that this video may be genuine.

Guests
The "confession" video contains other figures of interest, beyond bin Laden. This frame seems to show al Qaeda spokesman Suleiman Abu Ghaith, for instance:



Here he is in an al Qaeda video and another image, for comparison:




Then there's al Qaeda second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahiri, in the tape and an al Qaeda video:




And Khaled al-Harbi, a Saudi national and associate of bin Laden (tape image from the left, news shot to the right). He surrendered to the Saudi authorities in 2004 as part of a month-long offer of "leniency to terrorist suspects".




Are these also "imposters"? We've seen no reason to believe that. But if they're not, then why appear in a video with a fake bin Laden? One possible explanation is proposed by Cooperative Research, who suggest this might be one of the doubles known to have been used by bin Laden. But perhaps a simpler explanation is that the video is genuine, and everyone in it is exactly as they seem.

Other arguments
The "fake bin Laden" accusations were originally supported with other arguments about a ring he was seen to be wearing, and the fact that the video shows bin Laden writing with his right hand, while the FBI say he's left-handed. These claims aren't convincing and so have largely disappeared, but for completeness we'll mention them here.

At one time What Really Happened made the following argument, for instance:

Image:OBL montage.jpg

Osama 'E' wears a ring on his right hand which does not appear on other confirmed photos of Osama (e.g. Osama 'B'). Another man is seen wearing a large gold ring in the video. Since the wearing of gold rings is forbidden by Islam it shows neither he nor Osama 'E' has any devotion to this faith.
Web Archive Source

It sounds convincing, but only if you assume the author actually checked other "confirmed photos" to look for such a ring. We found one very quickly:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 729882.stm



This looks like another part of the same video, although the story associated with it was published much later.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/07/23/b ... .internet/



(And these images are interesting in themselves. Doesn't the first look to have a longer, thinner face then the second? Are we to believe one of these is also a fake?)

This video was taken only weeks after the “confession” video. bin Ladin wears a ring in both videos, and to our knowledge no-one is saying these images aren’t of bin Ladin. The confession video ring may therefore act as a minor confirmation that it’s the same guy, by matching this additional characteristic.

As for the “gold ring” business, we’d make a couple of points.

First, how does anyone know that the ring was made of gold? The video is in no way high enough quality to determine that.

And second, what is this supposed to prove, anyway? We’re also told that suicide and the killing on innocent people is forbidden by Islam, yet bin Ladin and his supporters appear not to share the same views. If they do see no problem with killing thousands of people on 9/11, then is it really inconceivable that they’ll also have their own opinions on jewellery?

The left/right-handed issue is no more convincing. It's certainly true that photos indicate he uses a gun in a left-handed way, but that need not apply to everything else. In the Arab world, in particular, the left hand is seen as dirty:

Part of the reason for the distaste of the left hand has to do with the sanitary habits of early man and of the Arab world. As the right hand is biologically our dominant hand, the left hand was used to clean ourselves after defecation. As such, food is not handled with the left hand, it is an offence to offer to shake someone's hand with your left hand. In the Arab world when text (representing God) was holy, it could not be touched with the left hand...
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/lefthandpath.html

It's entirely possible that bin Laden may have learned to write with his right hand, then, while using his left for other things. And this is supported by other footage showing him writing right-handed.



(See the Videos section below for the full clip.)

Even if that wasn't the case, there's still another possibility, that some injury made Bin Laden prefer to write right-handed. There's no sign of that in the confession tape, but other reports from the time do talk of him favouring his right, and speculating that there may be some medical cause:

Osama bin Ladin' health appears to deteriorate with each new videotape broadcast. The December videotape clearly shows bin Ladin with a whiter beard and a gaunt face. Significantly, bin Ladin, who is left-handed, does not move his left hand or his left side in the 34-minute video.
http://www.september11news.com/OsamaSpeeches.htm

Videotapes showing the left-handed Osama bin Ladin gesturing with his right hand led some viewers to believe that his left arm was injured.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/07/23/binladen.internet

Specialists have tried to explain why bin Ladin stopped videotaping himself. “He seemed possibly injured on his left side in the last videotape,” Matthew Levitt, a former F.B.I. anti-terrorism specialist, told me. Others have noted that, although bin Ladin is left-handed, in his last video he perched his Kalashnikov rifle next to his right side. He also failed to gesticulate as much as he usually did when he spoke. In the past, when bin Laden was ill he avoided being photographed, evidently careful never to project a weakened image.
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030804fa_fact

This doesn’t prove anything, obviously. But given that we have both a video clip apparently of bin Ladin writing with his right hand, and a possible reason why he may not be able to use his left, the right-handedness of the confession video bin Ladin doesn't seem of any great significance. If anything, it supports its authenticity by matching up with previous footage.

PAL-NTSC conversion
These arguments aren't enough for everyone. How can that initial image look so different, they wonder? One theory comes from a surprising direction, Ed Haas of Muckraker Report, who had previously believed the confession video was a fake.

Haas suggests that the initial video was shot in Afghanistan or Pakistan, and so used the PAL video standard, with a resolution of 720 x 576. This would later need to be converted into NTSC, with a resolution of 720 x 480. He points out that this could be done using a "linear interpolation PAL to NTSC conversion method", essentially eliminating every fifth line from the PAL video, but this would of course change the aspect ratio of the image and give everyone slightly fatter faces. Read more here.

Could this be correct? It's an interesting idea. We're not 100% convinced, as al Zawahiri, Suleiman Abu Ghaith and others don't appear particularly different to usual, but then they do get much less coverage in the video so it's hard to say for sure. The possibility of some aspect ratio issue can't be ruled out, though, perhaps when the video was resized to add subtitles. It's something else to consider.

Bruce Lawrence
In 2007 the following story appeared on many 9/11-related sites:

Top U.S. Bin Laden Expert: Confession Video “Bogus”
Was Osama Bin Laden responsible for 9/11?

The Bush Administration says yes, citing a grainy, badly-edited videotape that surfaced in December, 2001. In that tape, a fat guy who vaguely resembles Bin Laden chortles about the success of the 9/11 attacks. (In earlier interviews, Bin Laden had denied responsibility for 9/11, once even deploring the loss of civilian life in the attacks and calling them un-Islamic.)

Is the famous “confession video” genuine? Despite Bush’s insistence that the tape is authentic, America’s top academic Bin Laden expert has finally gone on the record, joining numerous other experts. “It’s bogus,” says Professor Bruce Lawrence, head of Duke University’s Religious Studies program.

Lawrence, author of Messages to the World: The Statements of Osama Bin Laden, offered his historic debunking of the administration’s lie in an interview with Kevin Barrett (“Dynamic Duo,” gcnlive.com, 2/16/2007, first hour). The interview marked Lawrence’s first major public statement since he made headlines last year by suggesting that recent Osama tapes are hoaxes and that the real Osama Bin Laden may be dead.

Why has the Bush Administration been lying for more than five years by telling us that this preposterously bad hoax is a genuine “confession video”? Lawrence, citing informants in the US intelligence apparatus’s Bin Laden units, said they all know the tape is fake, adding that the hoax has been kept alive because it is politically useful to those who wish to deflect attention from “conspiracy theories” about 9/11.
http://www.mujca.com/hoax.htm

Professor Lawrence didn't respond to an email asking for more details, however there are a few points about this story that you might like to keep in mind.

We're not entirely sure why Lawrence is referred to here as "Top U.S. Bin Laden Expert", other than to try and make the story more convincing. We've not seen anyone else make that claim about him. And while he edited a book of bin Laden's speeches, the cover, author biography and introduction make no mention of any special expertise on the man.

The introduction to Lawrence's "Messages to the World" does contain other useful comments, though:

...Three years later, al Qaeda activists hijacked four planes in the United States and in suicide missions destroyed the World Trade Center, and severely damaged the Pentagon, killing 3,000 people, most of them Americans. It was not until 2004 that bin Laden publicly acknowledged his role in planning and organizing the attacks of 9/11 (Statement 23), but from the start few doubted that he was the author of this epochal act of terrorism. The Bush Administration's response was not long in coming...

When he wrote this book Professor Lawrence seemed in no doubt that al Qaeda were responsible for 9/11, then. And his book actually includes the October 2004 bin Laden statement that Lawrence says claims "direct responsibility for 9/11", with lines like "as I looked at those destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me to punish the oppressor in kind by destroying towers in America, so that it would have a taste of its own medicine. and would be prevented from killing our women and children."

If Lawrence believes that al Qaeda were behind the 9/11 attacks, then, and that a legitimate 2004 bin Laden statement claimed responsibility for this, then his comments on the 2001 video don't seem nearly as significant as the original story made out.

Final thoughts
Beyond the analyses, we think the idea of the tape being faked raises other questions, for which there are a distinct lack of answers.

Many of the same sites who tell us this tape is a fake, for instance, also point out that bin Ladin denied being involved with 9/11 soon after the attacks. If this is true then it suggests bin Ladin is a real, live person, out there somewhere, not doing the bidding of the US Government. In which case why has he, or some other al Qaeda spokesman, not pointed out that this tape is a fake?

But even if it could be established beyond doubt that the man in the video were not bin Laden, that's still a very long way from showing that "9/11 was an inside job". What if he were one of bin Laden's doubles, for instance, but otherwise expressing the views of bin Laden and al Qaeda?

Certainly, despite the widespread assumption, there's not a jot of evidence to say that America were behind the tape, and some indications that they weren't. One of these is commonly referred to on 9/11 sites as an inaccurate translation of the tapes:

The American translators who listened to the tapes and transcribed them apparently wrote a lot of things in that they wanted to hear but that cannot be heard on the tape no matter how many times you listen to it
http://dc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/16801

Very interesting, but hardly support for faking, at least not by the US Government. Because if they organised the filming, why wouldn’t they have the participants saying exactly what they wanted? Why the need to play around with translations later?

The reality is that there are plenty of people who say the video is genuine, and not just in the Bush administration. Here's a conversation between Al Jazeera London bureau chief Yosri Fouda and TBS Publisher and Senior Editor S. Abdallah Schleifer.

SAS: ...there was the much earlier amateurishly filmed video tape that the American government says they found in Afghanistan... in which a militant Saudi sheikh, visiting with Bin Ladin leads Bin Ladin into an acknowledgement that it was Al-Qa'ida operatives known only to him and a few others, who staged the operation and Bin Ladin re-enacts his great joy when the operation succeeded well beyond his expectations. My intuition as a journalist told me when I watched the tape on CNN that it was authentic and that it was Bin Ladin but my intuition also told me that the Sheikh was an intelligence agent, probably for the Americans and the their taped conversation a sting operation. A few days later a respectable British newspaper confirmed it was a sting but they said it was set up by Saudi intelligence. And certainly the former head of Saudi intelligence has made it clear in no uncertain terms that 9/11 was an Al-Qa'ida operation. Now despite all of this and other documentation, so many Arabs were in a state of denial and many are still in a state of denial, insisting that Al-Qa'ida or any Arabs for that matter could not have had anything to do with this operation, that this was a Mossad or CIA operation.
YF: ...Until I got to meet Ramzi and Khalid there was a lot of doubt as to the possibility that that tape might have been fabricated. But I got it on videotape from one of the other people from Al-Qa'ida who were there at the apartment that the tape was legitimate. I asked him whether that tape was genuine and he said it was. And in the end when I went back I put that Saudi Sheikh's video tape with Bin Ladin on and listened to it for four or five times, and certain bits and pieces that Bin Ladin said on that tape fit in very nicely with what Ramzi and Khalid had said to me. You know like the first time that they knew of the zero hour.

SAS: I understand what you are saying and I've been convinced of that tape's authenticity since the beginning. And your experience just confirms it.
http://www.tbsjournal.com/Archives/Fall02/Fouda.html

It's also worth remembering that this is just one of the tapes in which bin Laden or al Qaeda either explicitly or implicitly accept responsibility for the 9/11 attacks. And as we've seen, even some of those saying the "confession tape" is bogus seem to believe other claims of responsibility are legitimate, therefore without more concrete evidence it's hard to see how this issue will ever prove anything at all.

Videos
The "Confession" Tape:

9/11-related al Qaeda videos:

Hijackers video wills and other footage:


Retrieved from "http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Confession_video"

[Col. Flagg]

From My Friend The Col;
Mark, Dalton... I'm sorry for coming across so strongly RE 9/11... I need to respect your views and opinions more... I tend to get frustrated when others can't see what I do, but that's probably owing to all of the research I've done over the past 4 years on the subject. You guys are brothers to me and we are on the same side in this fight to save our country from conspiring men who want to transform it and us into something awful... that's all that matters right now. We need to stop Obama and what he and the evil men pulling his strings behind the scenes want to do to us, although, you could make an argument that most of the damage has already been done. These 'Czars' he is appointing should scare everyone to death because these are guys who are flat out commies who want to turn the U.S. into Nazi Germany (or worse). This Van Jones character he has appointed as his 'green' Czar attended Jeremiah Wright's church and he sounds just like him in scolding America and calling for it to be damned. Worse yet, his new FCC guy loves what Hugo Chavez has done in Venezuela in suppressing dissenting voices and shutting down radio and TV stations critical of his 'government'. The Obama administration is moving faster than Hugo Chavez is in Venezuela to transform the U.S. into a fascist communist state. I hope Beck is watching his back and has plenty of bodyguards.

I am with you 100% on this one buddy. The ‘Democratic Revolution’ Obama and his people are trying to push through is way more important to me than nano-thermite and the speed of gravity. I just couldn’t let pass lies spread by bigots, not that you are one Col, I am sure you are not. What the Communists and Progressives are doing is way more important than 9/11 and if they succeed we will not be able to recognize this country. We should be ‘9/12’ people not ‘9/10ers’ as Glenn says.


OMD

I'm not going to forget 9/11 because it was a false flag event that has changed a lot in this country for the worse and it's always important to discover the truth... after all, it sets you free and the 3,000 who died deserve justice. But right now (2009), the fight we ought to be focused on emanates from Washington, DC, more specifically, the White House.

[Kurt]

I'm not going to forget 9/11 because it was a false flag event that has changed a lot in this country for the worse and it's always important to discover the truth... after all, it sets you free and the 3,000 who died deserve justice. But right now (2009), the fight we ought to be focused on emanates from Washington, DC, more specifically, the White House.

9-11 is absolutely relevant to where we are today. The fight to expose it for what it was/is, is still relevant, and I don't think that it deserves less. For example, people being told that Obama has socialists, communists etc. in his cabinet proves what? What we already know for anyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear. Okay, now that we know Obama has communist ties, what are we gonna do about it, put him prison, for what? 9-11 on the other hand is something that changes the game entirely, exposing how deep the gadiantons and our government have gone into the evil being perpetrated on not only American, but on other people, races and countries, it is a crime. Lets not make one thing of exposing the darkness less important than another. Do we really need Glenn Beck to tell us/determine what to focus on in exposing the hidden things of darkness? Obama isn't decieving anyone who has discernment. 9-11 and the government did decieve almost all. One is obvious, one is not, but the ones that are "hidden" deserve our attention since that is what we have been commanded to do in the D&C. Obama is not hidden, he is obvious.

9-11 is about exposing the hidden things of darkness and helping the rightous awake to the awful situation and how deep it is.