Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

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cab
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Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by cab »

The accusation has been made that Brigham Young is like a modern-day King Noah.

Most in the church would vehemently disagree with this accusation - and believe Brigham was more of an Alma than a King Noah.

Recall that King Noah’s major sin (aside from his multiple wives and concubines) was that of seeking great personal wealth under the guise of a theocracy. Alma, on the other hand, labored with his own hands and taught all to impart all their wealth to the poor.

So did Brigham consecrate his wealth (like Alma) or seek to build his own kingdom (like King Noah)?

Here I'll document much that has been said about Brigham Young’s vast wealth, which he sought for and accumulated. I think all of these sources are either from Brigham himself, his close associates, contemporary authors to Brigham, or more modern historians. I don’t think any of these I’m sharing are strictly anti-Mormon in their motives.

Here goes.

“It is none of your business, neither is it the business of all earth and hell, provided I pay the labourers their wages. I am not to be called in question as to what I do with my funds, whether I build high walls, garden walls or city walls; and if I please, it is my right to pull down my walls tomorrow..” (Brigham Young, 1860 General Conference)

“I want my support and living by the church hereafter, so that I can give my whole time to the business of the church.” (Brigham Young, History of the Church, 7:257, 1844)

“If you wish to obtain wealth, power, glory, excellency, and exaltation of every kind, be for God and truth, and he will give to you more than your hearts can conceive of.” (Brigham Young, JOD, 9:155, Jan 19, 1862)

“Brigham Young is undoubtedly the richest man in the Western Hemisphere.” (Fitz Ludlow, The Heart of the Continent, 1870, p. 318)

“In Utah, Brigham Young controlled large resources and was known as a man of wealth… he enjoyed fine things.” (Ronald Esplin, The Emergence of Brigham Young and the Twelve to Mormon Leadership, 1830-1841, 2006)


“In Utah he [Brigham Young] longed for more wives, additional converts, and greater power. In God’s and his church’s name he made the Great Basin his private possession.”, “’Before I had been one year in this place’, he bragged in 1850, ‘I was the wealthiest man who came from the mines, Father Rhodes, could not buy the possessions I had made in one year!’” (Stanley P. Hurshon, The Lion of the Lord, 1969, pg 139, 247)

“Brigham Young and other church authorities, when need required it, drew on the tithing resources of the church, and at a later date repaid part or all of the obligation in money, property, or services… No interest seems to have been paid for the use of these funds… The ability to draw, almost at will, on church as well as his own funds, was a great advantage to Brigham Young and was certainly one of the reasons for his worldly success.” (Church Historian Leonard J. Arrington, The Settlement of the Brigham Young Estate, 1877-1879, Pacific Historical Review, Vol 21, 1. Feb 1952, pg 7-8)

“My husband’s dinner table received many delicacies which were not served to the general multitude… He acquired enormous property, of the value of several millions of dollars, and was now the owner of at least eight millions [$173 million in 2020]. I was sufficiently informed to allege that his income was at least forty thousand [$865,000 in 2020] a month… ” (Ann Eliza Young, Wife No. 19, 1875, pgs 305 and 341)

“Brigham Young is the owner of vast wealth, amounting to several millions of dollars, and is in the monthly receipt of an income therefrom of not less than $40,000 [$865,000 in 2020].” (Irving Wallace, The 27th Wife, 1961, pg 245)

“Brigham himself is king, priest, lawgiver, and chief polygamist… He selects for himself the choicest spots of land in the Territory, and they yield him their productions, none daring to interfere… The timber in the mountains for a great distance from Salt Lake City belongs to him, and it is only by delivering each third load [to him] that the gates are open and the citizens allowed to pass up City Creek canyon to obtain it… The cattle on a thousand hills exhibit his brand. He fixes his pay – he pays himself.” (Associate Justice of the 2nd Judicial District John Cradlebaugh, “Utah and the Mormons” speech delivered in the US House of Representatives, Feb 7, 1863 per Appendix to the Congressional Globe, Feb 23, 1863, pg 121-122)

“He boasts that he takes no thought how to make money or get rich, and yet riches constantly flow to him. He has said he can ‘drop dollar for dollar with any monarch in Europe.’ He looks after the Lord’s interests, and the Lord looks after his interests…. Brigham receives a large revenue derived from legislative gifts, in the shape of timber canyons, herding grounds, ferries, and other franchises, it is not strange that his worldly store should be constantly and largely augmented… All property left by any deceased person went into the Perpetual Emigration Fund of which Brigham was President and custodian. Brigham also had the exclusive right to the Kansas Prairie, Lone Rock Valley, Rush Valley, and Cache Valley herd-grounds... Brigham had the exclusive right to establish a ferry over the Bear River [and to] control the road and coal beds in San Pete County... From the European Mission alone, over $500,000 [$8.8 million in 2020] of British gold has found its way into the pockets of Brigham Young… Young’s income from City Creek canyon alone is $10,000 [$311,000 in 2020]… ” (C.V. Waite, The Mormon Prophet and His Harem, 1866, pg 150-155)

“It is true that when he died he left to his 17 surviving wives and 44 surviving children a fortune of about $2 million [$48.6 million in 2020]… His policies were profitable to him personally… He gather his own wealth by personally dealing in cattle and agriculture… He gave himself concessions in lumber from the canyons, and he worked those concessions… In the eyes of his followers he was not only a king, but a prophet.” (M.R. Werner, Brigham Young, 1925, pg. 419-420)

“In the 1870 US Census, Young reported two million dollars [$40.1 million in 2020] in assets and an annual income of one hundred thousand dollars [$2 million in 2020.]” (John G Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet, 2012, pg 380)

“During the reign of Brigham, while tithes were unquestionably used to support church officials and even on occasion to enable them to build personal fortunes, the general management of this fund was good… Whoever is church emperor for the time being has absolute and irresponsible control of this vast supply of liquid wealth, now amounting to not less than $4 million per year [$105 million in 2020] – with yet other millions of accumulations… Brigham had undisputed charge of the tithing fund, which must have amounted to nearly a million dollars a year [$24.3 million in 2020] by the time of his death.” (Frank Cannon and George Knapp, Brigham Young and His Mormon Empire, 1913, pg 207 and 380)

“I am called rich, and consider myself worth $250,000 [$8 million in 2020]; but no dollar of it was ever paid me by the church, nor for any service as a minister of the everlasting gospel.”, “Perhaps the most remarkable feature in the proceeding of the assembly is the liberality with which valuable timber and pasture lands and water privileges were granted to favored individuals... Brigham was certainly a millionaire.” (Brigham Young 1851 statement, Hubert Howe Bancroft, History of Utah, 1889, pg. 351, 451, 675)

“Estate executor George Q. Cannon recorded in his journal that members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles were critical of Young’s liberal use of church funds (even though some of that use may have been for church projects)... In a few words, the feeling seems to be that he transcended the bounds of the authority which he legitimately held. It is felt that the funds of the Church have been used with a freedom not warranted by the authority which he held…. ‘Some of my brethren, as I have since learned since the death of President Brigham Young, did have feeling concerning his course. They did not approve of it, and felt opposed, and yet they dare not exhibit their feeling to him, he ruled with so strong and stiff a hand’...” (D. Michael Quinn, “The Mormon Hierarchy 1832-1932: An American Elite”, Yale PhD dissertation, May 1976, pg 127-133)

“He left his family well provided for, apportioning property to each member. His estate is valued at from six to seven millions of dollars [$146 to $170 million in 2020]. (John D. Lee, Mormonism Unveiled: The Life and Confession of John D. Lee, 1891)

“Young was a successful accumulator of property for his own use… His estate at his death was valued at between $2 million and $3 million [$48.6 million to $73 million in 2020]… Two years after his death a writer in the Salt Lake Tribune asserted that Young had secured in Utah from the tithing $13 million [$316 million in 2020] and squandered about $9 million [$218 million in 2020] on his family, and left the rest to be fought for by his heirs and assigns… As trustee in trust for the church, Young had control of all the church property and income, practically without responsibility or oversight.” (William A. Linn, The Story of the Mormons, 1901, pg. 542, 545)

“I made a statement yesterday, which I can make again with all propriety – that in my judgment it would take more than I have got to pay my back Tithing, and I have got as much, probably, as any man in the Church.” (Brigham Young, JOD, 16:70, June 1873)

“I have about as many buildings as anyone in this Territory.” (Brigham Young, JOD, 17:362, April 1875)

“Brigham has money, plenty of it. Of his income from his numerous and vast estates, his theatre, the Co-operative business, his railroad bonds, mills, farms, renters in the city, and from all sources.”, “Brigham Young has himself become immensely rich. Having control of the tithing, and possessing unlimited credit, he has added “house to house and field to field”, “As Trustee in Trust, Brigham renders no account of the funds that come into his hands… The building of the Pacific Railroad was said to have yielded him about a quarter of a million [$6 million in 2020]”, “The Utah Central Railroad brought him also a very large sum of money… There is probably not a county in Utah where Brigham has not some valuable property.”, “Brigham possess $600,000 of Utah Central Railroad bonds [$13.7 million in 2020]”, “Brigham took up great tracts of land, and the Legislature gave him grants of all he coveted… All the 20th Ward Bench to the north of the city, and lying east of his premises was given to him.” (T.B.H. Stenhouse, The Rocky Mountain Saints, 1878)

“Brigham Young’s death-year value of $1.6 million is given as the formal appraisal of his estate [$39 million in 2020].”, “Five men in early Utah had management roles in 95-150 enterprises while serving in the hierarchy. At the top [of the list] was Brigham Young.”… “Brigham Young’s massive increase in personal income in 1870 was due to his lucrative contracts with the Union Pacific Railroad, which he defined as personal income.: (D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Wealth and Corporate Power, 2017)

“Most of Brigham’s wealth rested in real estate. As Trustee-in-Trust for the church, Young also oversaw a further vast array of enterprises… Young lived in the commodious Beehive House mansion, with three parlors containing space for family celebrations and social gatherings, decorated tastefully enough to impress the politicians and journalists who visited Young in Utah… He owned a carriage of the best material and workmanship, of the latest, best most fashionable, and approved style… carpeting made of a good sized, well twisted thread, made of long-stapled good wool, [and other] such acquisitions announced Yong’s status as a gentleman of means, refinement, and status… When he showed fellow church leaders his pianos, furniture, and other doestic acquisitions, he exhibited a pride quite understandable given his modest roots… The legislature had granted Young a number of concessions involving timber, herding, and water rights, all on the public domain… [thus he] managed a vast array of enterprises, including farms, mills, a cotton factory, and a lumberyard… w” (John G. Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet, 2012, pg. 315-316)
Last edited by cab on October 2nd, 2020, 6:10 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Brigham Young's Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by cab »

So I’ll ask the question again…

Is Brigham Young more like the wicked theocratic King Noah or like Alma who reformed the people into the true Church of God?

King Noah

Mosiah 11
2 For behold, he did not keep the commandments of God, but he did walk after the desires of his own heart. And he had many wives and concubines. And he did because his people to commit sin, and do that which was abominable in the sight of the Lord. Yea, and they did commit whoredoms and all manner of wickedness. 3 And he laid a tax of one fifth part of all they possessed… 4 And all this did he take to support himself, and his wives and his concubines; and also his priests, and their wives and their concubines; thus he had changed the affairs of the kingdom.

Alma

Mosiah 18
24 And he also commanded them that the priests whom he had ordained should labor with their own hands for their support. 25 And there was one day in every week that was set apart that they should gather themselves together to teach the people, and to worship the Lord their God, and also, as often as it was in their power, to assemble themselves together. 26 And the priests were not to depend upon the people for their support; but for their labor they were to receive the grace of God, that they might wax strong in the Spirit, having the knowledge of God, that they might teach with power and authority from God. 27 And again Alma commanded that the people of the church should impart of their substance, every one according to that which he had; if he have more abundantly he should impart more abundantly; and of him that had but little, but little should be required; and to him that had not should be given. 28 And thus they should impart of their substance of their own free will and good desires towards God, and to those priests that stood in need, yea, and to every needy, naked soul. 29 And this he said unto them, having been commanded of God; and they did walk uprightly before God, imparting to one another both temporally and spiritually according to their needs and their wants.

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by Lexew1899 »

No one is good, but God, says our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Of our own accord we merit hell for all time and eternity. Does Alma merit to not go to hell? Did he supercede the need of the atonement, for his good works? Those are menstrual rags to the eyes of God. Why brag about menstrual rags?

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by cab »

Lexew1899 wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 6:29 am No one is good, but God, says our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Of our own accord we merit hell for all time and eternity. Does Alma merit to not go to hell? Did he supercede the need of the atonement, for his good works? Those are menstrual rags to the eyes of God. Why brag about menstrual rags?

Because we ought to learn to discern between sent messengers and false ones.

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by Lexew1899 »

cab wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 6:34 am
Lexew1899 wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 6:29 am No one is good, but God, says our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Of our own accord we merit hell for all time and eternity. Does Alma merit to not go to hell? Did he supercede the need of the atonement, for his good works? Those are menstrual rags to the eyes of God. Why brag about menstrual rags?

Because we ought to learn to discern between sent messengers and false ones.
Do you disagree with Christ that none are good but God?

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by cab »

Lexew1899 wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 6:35 am
cab wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 6:34 am
Lexew1899 wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 6:29 am No one is good, but God, says our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Of our own accord we merit hell for all time and eternity. Does Alma merit to not go to hell? Did he supercede the need of the atonement, for his good works? Those are menstrual rags to the eyes of God. Why brag about menstrual rags?

Because we ought to learn to discern between sent messengers and false ones.
Do you disagree with Christ that none are good but God?

Of course not. What a silly question.

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by Lexew1899 »

cab wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 6:41 am
Lexew1899 wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 6:35 am
cab wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 6:34 am
Lexew1899 wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 6:29 am No one is good, but God, says our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Of our own accord we merit hell for all time and eternity. Does Alma merit to not go to hell? Did he supercede the need of the atonement, for his good works? Those are menstrual rags to the eyes of God. Why brag about menstrual rags?

Because we ought to learn to discern between sent messengers and false ones.
Do you disagree with Christ that none are good but God?

Of course not. What a silly question.
Then they are both bad.

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by cab »

Lexew1899 wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 6:44 am
cab wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 6:41 am
Lexew1899 wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 6:35 am
cab wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 6:34 am


Because we ought to learn to discern between sent messengers and false ones.
Do you disagree with Christ that none are good but God?

Of course not. What a silly question.
Then they are both bad.
Nope, because one of them was spiritually begotten of God.

Do you suppose Christ was saying he wasn’t good he said, “why do you call me good? The only good one is God.”?

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by Lexew1899 »

Yes. If you have the Book of Life, feel free to read to me the names you find therein from those departed you wish us to judge. Otherwise how could we pretend to condemn Brigham Young as defacto judges. Do you think Joseph will stand as a witness to condemn Brigham to hell?

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by cab »

Lexew1899 wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 7:03 am Yes. If you have the Book of Life, feel free to read to me the names you find therein from those departed you wish us to judge. Otherwise how could we pretend to condemn Brigham Young as defacto judges. Do you think Joseph will stand as a witness to condemn Brigham to hell?

Impossible to make that judgment. All I have to judge from is the data in front of me, and I’m trying to judge righteously.

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by Lexew1899 »

There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and destroy: who art thou that judgest one another? - James 4:12

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by Thinker »

Isn’t the moral of the story to only trust in God, not flesh?

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by cab »

Thinker wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 8:51 am Isn’t the moral of the story to only trust in God, not flesh?

Right, but true messengers can help your faith in God take a quantum leap.

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by darknesstolight »

Thinker wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 8:51 am Isn’t the moral of the story to only trust in God, not flesh?
Yes. I've heard God speaking using the voicebox of a mortal. God condescends to work through us.

When a person speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost then they are at that moment the voice of God.

We must learn to hear God's voice, which is Spirit.

...

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by Thinker »

cab wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 9:02 am
Thinker wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 8:51 am Isn’t the moral of the story to only trust in God, not flesh?
Right, but true messengers can help your faith in God take a quantum leap.
I can see how others help. Still, when I’ve experienced quantum leaps in faith, it was primarily because I was looking more for truth (God is a god of truth) rather than depending on a messenger. In fact, God has often seen to it that each messengers of truth is shown to be fallible, so that I keep God as my foundation. Not exactly fun, but important.

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by dewajack »

I think very few men that have walked the earth can handle the kind of power and authority that Brigham had and not succumb to some degree. Look at David, and yet, The Lord likened David's heart to his own.

I can't remember what talk it was, but in a conf. talk I believe, President Packer talked about his kids and how he preferred them to serve locally rather than in high profile callings like his (don't remember the exact words, but that was the gist). He meant it. When people get in positions of power in any area (political, religious, financial, etc.) It's easy to slip, think you're bigger than you really are and become very prideful. They re not to be envied.

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by Zathura »

dewajack wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 9:42 am I think very few men that have walked the earth can handle the kind of power and authority that Brigham had and not succumb to some degree. Look at David, and yet, The Lord likened David's heart to his own.

I can't remember what talk it was, but in a conf. talk I believe, President Packer talked about his kids and how he preferred them to serve locally rather than in high profile callings like his (don't remember the exact words, but that was the gist). He meant it. When people get in positions of power in any area (political, religious, financial, etc.) It's easy to slip, think you're bigger than you really are and become very prideful. They re not to be envied.
Section 121

Almost All Men ..

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by Zathura »

While Brigham clearly fell into the same things as Noah, he still did plenty of good things and taught plenty of good things .

I do think it's a comparison that should be examined, but I don't think Brigham Young is exactly like Noah

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by Alexander »

As part of Jesus' teachings while amongst the Nephites in Bountiful, the Lord commands:

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them.

If a prophet is not pointing us to repent unto Jesus, and teaching the pure and simple doctrine of Christ, they will not bring forth fruit meet for the kingdom (of God).

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by Mindfields »

dewajack wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 9:42 am I think very few men that have walked the earth can handle the kind of power and authority that Brigham had and not succumb to some degree. Look at David, and yet, The Lord likened David's heart to his own.

I can't remember what talk it was, but in a conf. talk I believe, President Packer talked about his kids and how he preferred them to serve locally rather than in high profile callings like his (don't remember the exact words, but that was the gist). He meant it. When people get in positions of power in any area (political, religious, financial, etc.) It's easy to slip, think you're bigger than you really are and become very prideful. They re not to be envied.
While true. You don't get to remain in the Lord's good graces and confidence and do so many bad things. As a member we would be exe'd for the same behavior. The bar gets higher the closer you are to God not farther away. Excusing the leaders bad behavior is a sign that somethings clearly wrong with your reasoning skills.

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by nightlight »

Zathura wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 10:17 am While Brigham clearly fell into the same things as Noah, he still did plenty of good things and taught plenty of good things .

I do think it's a comparison that should be examined, but I don't think Brigham Young is exactly like Noah
Really? Who influenced murder with their rhetoric?

Brigham Young's most wicked doings were not about women and money....it was the teaching of killing people to save them because Jesus couldn't.

Do people honestly think that he didn't influence Mountain Meadows Massacre..and another blood atonement killings?

King Noah didn't claim Jesus Christ's name... Brigham Young claimed the name of Jesus Christ.

Shocks me how everybody today just glosses over the fact of Brigham Young teaching people that the only way to save a converted person who committed serious sin... was to have them stabbed to death.

Imagine being a 8 year old in the Baker–Fancher emigrant wagon train.... then tell me the early Brighamite Mormons weren't like King Noah and Company

Sex...money...murder

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by Zathura »

nightlight wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 11:16 am
Zathura wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 10:17 am While Brigham clearly fell into the same things as Noah, he still did plenty of good things and taught plenty of good things .

I do think it's a comparison that should be examined, but I don't think Brigham Young is exactly like Noah
Really? Who influenced murder with their rhetoric?

Brigham Young's most wicked doings were not about women and money....it was the teaching of killing people to save them because Jesus couldn't.

Do people honestly think that he didn't influence Mountain Meadows Massacre..and another blood atonement killings?

King Noah didn't claim Jesus Christ's name... Brigham Young claimed the name of Jesus Christ.

Shocks me how everybody today just glosses over the fact of Brigham Young teaching people that the only way to save a converted person who committed serious sin... was to have them stabbed to death.

Imagine being a 8 year old in the Baker–Fancher emigrant wagon train.... then tell me the early Brighamite Mormons weren't like King Noah and Company

Sex...money...murder
I'm not aware of any blood atonement killings, and all though I've read that some say he was responsible for mountain meadows, I haven't seen anything provided that proves it.

Perhaps a thread with that information would be helpful

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by nightlight »

Lexew1899 wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 6:29 am No one is good, but God, says our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Of our own accord we merit hell for all time and eternity. Does Alma merit to not go to hell? Did he supercede the need of the atonement, for his good works? Those are menstrual rags to the eyes of God. Why brag about menstrual rags?
Take the person's name out, it has nothing to do with this...

This has to do with what people do, what they say, what they teach.

If you don't see the difference between Alma and King Noah.... then it's pointless to even have the Book of Mormon...

You make Jesus a thing of naught

Why be warned about false prophets, if both the false and the real are bad?

lmao....

?

What a fallacy you have presented.

" it doesn't matter who you follow, who you look to for guidance... it doesn't matter who your teacher and leader is. For all men are bad... Don't you dare teach what bad behavior is. Don't you dare condemn bad behavior. We are all evil."


16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
--------------

^^^^^^^^^ our scripture speak a different tun than you

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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by Lexew1899 »

nightlight wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 11:27 am
Lexew1899 wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 6:29 am No one is good, but God, says our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Of our own accord we merit hell for all time and eternity. Does Alma merit to not go to hell? Did he supercede the need of the atonement, for his good works? Those are menstrual rags to the eyes of God. Why brag about menstrual rags?
Take the person's name out, it has nothing to do with this...

This has to do with what people do, what they say, what they teach.

If you don't see the difference between Alma and King Noah.... then it's pointless to even have the Book of Mormon...

You make Jesus a thing of naught

Why be warned about false prophets, if both the false and the real are bad?

lmao....

?

What a fallacy you have presented.

" it doesn't matter who you follow, who you look to for guidance... it doesn't matter who your teacher and leader is. For all men are bad... Don't you dare teach what bad behavior is. Don't you dare condemn bad behavior. We are all evil."


16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
--------------

^^^^^^^^^ our scripture speak a different tun than you
I’m not the one who said none are God, but God. That’s what Christ told us.
Last edited by Lexew1899 on October 2nd, 2020, 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dewajack
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Re: Brigham Young and Wealth - More Like Alma or King Noah?

Post by dewajack »

Mindfields wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 10:36 am
dewajack wrote: October 2nd, 2020, 9:42 am I think very few men that have walked the earth can handle the kind of power and authority that Brigham had and not succumb to some degree. Look at David, and yet, The Lord likened David's heart to his own.

I can't remember what talk it was, but in a conf. talk I believe, President Packer talked about his kids and how he preferred them to serve locally rather than in high profile callings like his (don't remember the exact words, but that was the gist). He meant it. When people get in positions of power in any area (political, religious, financial, etc.) It's easy to slip, think you're bigger than you really are and become very prideful. They re not to be envied.
While true. You don't get to remain in the Lord's good graces and confidence and do so many bad things. As a member we would be exe'd for the same behavior. The bar gets higher the closer you are to God not farther away. Excusing the leaders bad behavior is a sign that somethings clearly wrong with your reasoning skills.
I'm not excusing anyone's bad behavior. I just know that when I've griped to The Lord about him, he's clarified things and told me to harbor no I'll will. It's not yours or my place to decide whose in the Lord's good graces. If we have issues, in my opinion. It's best to go to The Lord and receive revelation and allow Him to inform us.

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