Could we lose the Melchizedek Priesthood?

[Alaris]

This isn't a gotcha thread or an "I know the answer - do you?" thread that thankfully we don't see much of anymore here on LDSFF. Legitimately, I am curious if this could happen to our church. If you know of a scripture or a prophetic statement that says this could not happen, please share. Here's my thinking:

D&C 13:1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

I know we don't have record of the blessing that Peter, James, and John gave to Joseph Smith, but no such promise is recorded (that I am aware of.) I've grown up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so I am aware that many members say the Priesthood will never be removed and that the attitude is both Priesthoods - but do we have assurances that both Priesthoods will persist with us?

So, Jesus ordained P,J&J during His mortal ministry. "The Angel of God" ordained John the Baptist (if you follow my articles / threads, you may know who I suspect this "Angel" to be) when John was eight days old, which is a cool modern revelation. I mean, who gets ordained to the Priesthood at 8 days old?

D&C 84:27 Which gospel is the gospel of brepentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.
28 For he was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power.

There are other cool morsels in here such as the end of said ordination is to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews and make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people. This promise likely extend to exactly what John alludes to in Malachi 3:

1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

The hebrew word "messenger" is the same word for "angel." The angel of the covenant is very likely the same angel who ordained John at age eight. The first word "Lord" in verse 1 is not YHWH but more like the traditional meaning of "Lord." The second LORD is JEHOVAH / YHWH in verse 1 - saith YHWH of hosts. He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver is the angel of the Lord - the messenger of the covenant who is likely the same angel who ordained John - the Lesser High Priest of the Lesser Priesthood. Anyway, I'm getting off track a bit, but remember Moroni quoted these same verses to Joseph Smith from Malachi.

There is a great thread in outer darkness, started by Finrock, discussing who the high priests are. I have opined that the Melchizedek Priesthood has been given us to taste of the powers of the world to come. What if that's true and we have been given the Higher Priesthood as a "taste" or a trial. I mean, of course it's a trial, but this perspective - along with D&C 13 - is what is leading me to ask this question: Could the Lord take from us the Melchizedek Priesthood?

[investigator]

No, we cannot lose the Melchizedek Priesthood. You cannot lose something you do not have.

124: 28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

[Zathura]

This isn't a gotcha thread or an "I know the answer - do you?" thread that thankfully we don't see much of anymore here on LDSFF. Legitimately, I am curious if this could happen to our church. If you know of a scripture or a prophetic statement that says this could not happen, please share. Here's my thinking:

D&C 13:1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

I know we don't have record of the blessing that Peter, James, and John gave to Joseph Smith, but no such promise is recorded (that I am aware of.) I've grown up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so I am aware that many members say the Priesthood will never be removed and that the attitude is both Priesthoods - but do we have assurances that both Priesthoods will persist with us?

So, Jesus ordained P,J&J during His mortal ministry. "The Angel of God" ordained John the Baptist (if you follow my articles / threads, you may know who I suspect this "Angel" to be) when John was eight days old, which is a cool modern revelation. I mean, who gets ordained to the Priesthood at 8 days old?

D&C 84:27 Which gospel is the gospel of brepentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.
28 For he was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power.

There are other cool morsels in here such as the end of said ordination is to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews and make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people. This promise likely extend to exactly what John alludes to in Malachi 3:

1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

The hebrew word "messenger" is the same word for "angel." The angel of the covenant is very likely the same angel who ordained John at age eight. The first word "Lord" in verse 1 is not YHWH but more like the traditional meaning of "Lord." The second LORD is JEHOVAH / YHWH in verse 1 - saith YHWH of hosts. He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver is the angel of the Lord - the messenger of the covenant who is likely the same angel who ordained John - the Lesser High Priest of the Lesser Priesthood. Anyway, I'm getting off track a bit, but remember Moroni quoted these same verses to Joseph Smith from Malachi.

There is a great thread in outer darkness, started by Finrock, discussing who the high priests are. I have opined that the Melchizedek Priesthood has been given us to taste of the powers of the world to come. What if that's true and we have been given the Higher Priesthood as a "taste" or a trial. I mean, of course it's a trial, but this perspective - along with D&C 13 - is what is leading me to ask this question: Could the Lord take from us the Melchizedek Priesthood?

Well, there is D&C 124: 28

28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

It seems to casually mention that the fullness of the priesthood was taken away. This would suggest that it’s possible to have it taken.

[Alaris]

No, we cannot lose the Melchizedek Priesthood. You cannot lose something you do not have.

124: 28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

I agree we do not have the fullness of the Melchizedek Priesthood, but we certainly have a form of the Higher Priesthood. And we can certainly lose whatever form we have. Thanks for your comment.

[Alaris]

This isn't a gotcha thread or an "I know the answer - do you?" thread that thankfully we don't see much of anymore here on LDSFF. Legitimately, I am curious if this could happen to our church. If you know of a scripture or a prophetic statement that says this could not happen, please share. Here's my thinking:

D&C 13:1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

I know we don't have record of the blessing that Peter, James, and John gave to Joseph Smith, but no such promise is recorded (that I am aware of.) I've grown up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so I am aware that many members say the Priesthood will never be removed and that the attitude is both Priesthoods - but do we have assurances that both Priesthoods will persist with us?

So, Jesus ordained P,J&J during His mortal ministry. "The Angel of God" ordained John the Baptist (if you follow my articles / threads, you may know who I suspect this "Angel" to be) when John was eight days old, which is a cool modern revelation. I mean, who gets ordained to the Priesthood at 8 days old?

D&C 84:27 Which gospel is the gospel of brepentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.
28 For he was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power.

There are other cool morsels in here such as the end of said ordination is to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews and make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people. This promise likely extend to exactly what John alludes to in Malachi 3:

1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

The hebrew word "messenger" is the same word for "angel." The angel of the covenant is very likely the same angel who ordained John at age eight. The first word "Lord" in verse 1 is not YHWH but more like the traditional meaning of "Lord." The second LORD is JEHOVAH / YHWH in verse 1 - saith YHWH of hosts. He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver is the angel of the Lord - the messenger of the covenant who is likely the same angel who ordained John - the Lesser High Priest of the Lesser Priesthood. Anyway, I'm getting off track a bit, but remember Moroni quoted these same verses to Joseph Smith from Malachi.

There is a great thread in outer darkness, started by Finrock, discussing who the high priests are. I have opined that the Melchizedek Priesthood has been given us to taste of the powers of the world to come. What if that's true and we have been given the Higher Priesthood as a "taste" or a trial. I mean, of course it's a trial, but this perspective - along with D&C 13 - is what is leading me to ask this question: Could the Lord take from us the Melchizedek Priesthood?

Well, there is D&C 124: 28

28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

It seems to casually mention that the fullness of the priesthood was taken away. This would suggest that it’s possible to have it taken.

Fascinating.

How about this?

3 Nephi 16:10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

Now I don't believe Ephraim = Gentiles as some do on this forum. At some point, the 10 tribes are crowned by Ephraim (D&C 133) so that seems to indicate Ephraim has the Melchizedek Priesthood in some form at that point.

However, "I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them" is certainly curious word choice. Bring? And what does it mean to bring the fulness from among them? Is this when the church is given wings and flies into the wilderness?

Another thought here - if we have been given a portion of the Higher Priesthood, might it be taken away at some point for reasons other than we didn't do so well on our tasting of the powers of the world to come. Some examples:

* The Higher Priesthood was only intended to be here until the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled and is taken away temporarily in anticipation of the coming of the true High Priests of Melchizedek - the 144,000 - or to point to the coming of the Davidic Servant, or both.

* The Higher Priesthood is taken away as part of a sifting - those who are remain (remnant) then receive the fulness or a fuller portion of the Priesthood.

etc.

[investigator]

D&C 13:1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

Whose to say that the Aaronic Priesthood cannot be taken from the Church as well. Notice this scripture says the Priesthood of Aaron will not be taken from the EARTH it does not say it will not or cannot be taken from the CHURCH.

[JohnnyL]

No. We could lose it personally, but it's not going to happen to the world or the church.

And it's the real priesthood (a few scriptures):
Alma 13, DaC 107, JST of Gen. 14: 25-40 (in back), Moses 7:13-21, Hebrews 5, 6, 7.

[Zathura]

This isn't a gotcha thread or an "I know the answer - do you?" thread that thankfully we don't see much of anymore here on LDSFF. Legitimately, I am curious if this could happen to our church. If you know of a scripture or a prophetic statement that says this could not happen, please share. Here's my thinking:

D&C 13:1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

I know we don't have record of the blessing that Peter, James, and John gave to Joseph Smith, but no such promise is recorded (that I am aware of.) I've grown up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so I am aware that many members say the Priesthood will never be removed and that the attitude is both Priesthoods - but do we have assurances that both Priesthoods will persist with us?

So, Jesus ordained P,J&J during His mortal ministry. "The Angel of God" ordained John the Baptist (if you follow my articles / threads, you may know who I suspect this "Angel" to be) when John was eight days old, which is a cool modern revelation. I mean, who gets ordained to the Priesthood at 8 days old?

D&C 84:27 Which gospel is the gospel of brepentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.
28 For he was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power.

There are other cool morsels in here such as the end of said ordination is to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews and make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people. This promise likely extend to exactly what John alludes to in Malachi 3:

1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

The hebrew word "messenger" is the same word for "angel." The angel of the covenant is very likely the same angel who ordained John at age eight. The first word "Lord" in verse 1 is not YHWH but more like the traditional meaning of "Lord." The second LORD is JEHOVAH / YHWH in verse 1 - saith YHWH of hosts. He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver is the angel of the Lord - the messenger of the covenant who is likely the same angel who ordained John - the Lesser High Priest of the Lesser Priesthood. Anyway, I'm getting off track a bit, but remember Moroni quoted these same verses to Joseph Smith from Malachi.

There is a great thread in outer darkness, started by Finrock, discussing who the high priests are. I have opined that the Melchizedek Priesthood has been given us to taste of the powers of the world to come. What if that's true and we have been given the Higher Priesthood as a "taste" or a trial. I mean, of course it's a trial, but this perspective - along with D&C 13 - is what is leading me to ask this question: Could the Lord take from us the Melchizedek Priesthood?

Well, there is D&C 124: 28

28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

It seems to casually mention that the fullness of the priesthood was taken away. This would suggest that it’s possible to have it taken.

Fascinating.

How about this?

3 Nephi 16:10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

Now I don't believe Ephraim = Gentiles as some do on this forum. At some point, the 10 tribes are crowned by Ephraim (D&C 133) so that seems to indicate Ephraim has the Melchizedek Priesthood in some form at that point.

However, "I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them" is certainly curious word choice. Bring? And what does it mean to bring the fulness from among them? Is this when the church is given wings and flies into the wilderness?

Another thought here - if we have been given a portion of the Higher Priesthood, might it be taken away at some point for reasons other than we didn't do so well on our tasting of the powers of the world to come. Some examples:

* The Higher Priesthood was only intended to be here until the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled and is taken away temporarily in anticipation of the coming of the true High Priests of Melchizedek - the 144,000 - or to point to the coming of the Davidic Servant, or both.

* The Higher Priesthood is taken away as part of a sifting - those who are remain (remnant) then receive the fulness or a fuller portion of the Priesthood.

etc.

To be honest, the Spirit has drawn me to study only the basic Doctrine of Christ for years now. Only now do I feel it guiding me into other topics, for the first time in years. Until I come to learn some things for myself concerning the priesthood, I'm all ears for ideas and suggestions. (To be clear, I've read and am aware of all these scriptures used to discuss priesthood, but since my "Spiritual Awakening" It's pretty much been one topic that I've undertaken a sincere deep study. )

I'm not sure what to make of these, these things sound like they very well could be correct.

[Alaris]

This isn't a gotcha thread or an "I know the answer - do you?" thread that thankfully we don't see much of anymore here on LDSFF. Legitimately, I am curious if this could happen to our church. If you know of a scripture or a prophetic statement that says this could not happen, please share. Here's my thinking:

D&C 13:1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

I know we don't have record of the blessing that Peter, James, and John gave to Joseph Smith, but no such promise is recorded (that I am aware of.) I've grown up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so I am aware that many members say the Priesthood will never be removed and that the attitude is both Priesthoods - but do we have assurances that both Priesthoods will persist with us?

So, Jesus ordained P,J&J during His mortal ministry. "The Angel of God" ordained John the Baptist (if you follow my articles / threads, you may know who I suspect this "Angel" to be) when John was eight days old, which is a cool modern revelation. I mean, who gets ordained to the Priesthood at 8 days old?

D&C 84:27 Which gospel is the gospel of brepentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.
28 For he was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power.

There are other cool morsels in here such as the end of said ordination is to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews and make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people. This promise likely extend to exactly what John alludes to in Malachi 3:

1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

The hebrew word "messenger" is the same word for "angel." The angel of the covenant is very likely the same angel who ordained John at age eight. The first word "Lord" in verse 1 is not YHWH but more like the traditional meaning of "Lord." The second LORD is JEHOVAH / YHWH in verse 1 - saith YHWH of hosts. He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver is the angel of the Lord - the messenger of the covenant who is likely the same angel who ordained John - the Lesser High Priest of the Lesser Priesthood. Anyway, I'm getting off track a bit, but remember Moroni quoted these same verses to Joseph Smith from Malachi.

There is a great thread in outer darkness, started by Finrock, discussing who the high priests are. I have opined that the Melchizedek Priesthood has been given us to taste of the powers of the world to come. What if that's true and we have been given the Higher Priesthood as a "taste" or a trial. I mean, of course it's a trial, but this perspective - along with D&C 13 - is what is leading me to ask this question: Could the Lord take from us the Melchizedek Priesthood?

Well, there is D&C 124: 28

28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

It seems to casually mention that the fullness of the priesthood was taken away. This would suggest that it’s possible to have it taken.

Fascinating.

How about this?

3 Nephi 16:10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

Now I don't believe Ephraim = Gentiles as some do on this forum. At some point, the 10 tribes are crowned by Ephraim (D&C 133) so that seems to indicate Ephraim has the Melchizedek Priesthood in some form at that point.

However, "I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them" is certainly curious word choice. Bring? And what does it mean to bring the fulness from among them? Is this when the church is given wings and flies into the wilderness?

Another thought here - if we have been given a portion of the Higher Priesthood, might it be taken away at some point for reasons other than we didn't do so well on our tasting of the powers of the world to come. Some examples:

* The Higher Priesthood was only intended to be here until the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled and is taken away temporarily in anticipation of the coming of the true High Priests of Melchizedek - the 144,000 - or to point to the coming of the Davidic Servant, or both.

* The Higher Priesthood is taken away as part of a sifting - those who are remain (remnant) then receive the fulness or a fuller portion of the Priesthood.

etc.

To be honest, the Spirit has drawn me to study only the basic Doctrine of Christ for years now. Only now do I feel it guiding me into other topics, for the first time in years. Until I come to learn some things for myself concerning the priesthood, I'm all ears for ideas and suggestions. (To be clear, I've read and am aware of all these scriptures used to discuss priesthood, but since my "Spiritual Awakening" It's pretty much been one topic that I've undertaken a sincere deep study. )

I'm not sure what to make of these, these things sound like they very well could be correct.

The year without the rainbow - might there be another meaning here? We know God won't flood the earth again. I have had this feeling myself that there will be some sort of state change. Of course, this may not have anything to do with the Melchizedek Priesthood and whether it's removed. I'm just spit balling here on this post.

[Zathura]

Well, there is D&C 124: 28

28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

It seems to casually mention that the fullness of the priesthood was taken away. This would suggest that it’s possible to have it taken.

Fascinating.

How about this?

3 Nephi 16:10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

Now I don't believe Ephraim = Gentiles as some do on this forum. At some point, the 10 tribes are crowned by Ephraim (D&C 133) so that seems to indicate Ephraim has the Melchizedek Priesthood in some form at that point.

However, "I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them" is certainly curious word choice. Bring? And what does it mean to bring the fulness from among them? Is this when the church is given wings and flies into the wilderness?

Another thought here - if we have been given a portion of the Higher Priesthood, might it be taken away at some point for reasons other than we didn't do so well on our tasting of the powers of the world to come. Some examples:

* The Higher Priesthood was only intended to be here until the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled and is taken away temporarily in anticipation of the coming of the true High Priests of Melchizedek - the 144,000 - or to point to the coming of the Davidic Servant, or both.

* The Higher Priesthood is taken away as part of a sifting - those who are remain (remnant) then receive the fulness or a fuller portion of the Priesthood.

etc.

To be honest, the Spirit has drawn me to study only the basic Doctrine of Christ for years now. Only now do I feel it guiding me into other topics, for the first time in years. Until I come to learn some things for myself concerning the priesthood, I'm all ears for ideas and suggestions. (To be clear, I've read and am aware of all these scriptures used to discuss priesthood, but since my "Spiritual Awakening" It's pretty much been one topic that I've undertaken a sincere deep study. )

I'm not sure what to make of these, these things sound like they very well could be correct.

The year without the rainbow - might there be another meaning here? We know God won't flood the earth again. I have had this feeling myself that there will be some sort of state change. Of course, this may not have anything to do with the Melchizedek Priesthood and whether it's removed. I'm just spit balling here on this post.

Haha I'm not sure. To me it seems it'll serve only as a sign of the times, along with wars, pestilence , disasters etc.

[topcat]

For those who "suppose" they have the higher priesthood, it is lost when we seek to control others.

DC 121

[BruceRGilbert]

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/words-jose ... /27-august

[Robin Hood]

However, "I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them" is certainly curious word choice. Bring? And what does it mean to bring the fulness from among them? Is this when the church is given wings and flies into the wilderness?

Brilliant!
Thank you for drawing attention to this. It never dawned on me before but you're right. It's clearly talking about taking the true believers/priesthood/church out from amongst the Gentiles/Babylon.
Excellent insight. Thanks once again.

[Alaris]

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/words-jose ... /27-august

Every now and again I'll be reading something and think about stopping and I'll feel the nudge that says, "keep reading. You're about to find something important." I had that experience reading this link.

As I'm reading Willard Richards transcription of Joseph Smith's diary 27 August 1843 .. I'm seeing relevant information to this thread - and how there are three priesthoods, including the patriarchal. Then I read this:

3d That of Melchisedec who had still greater power even power of an endless life of which was our Lord Jesus Christ which also Abraham obtained by the offering of his son Isaac which was not the power of a Prophet nor apostle nor Patriarch only but of King & Priest [22] to God to open the windows of Heaven and pour out the peace & Law of endless Life to man [23] & No man can attain to the Joint heirship [24] with Jesus Christ with out being administered to by one having the same power & Authority of Melchisedec [25] Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost [26] is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.

Do you know how many times I've read and quoted that last bolded statement to demonstrate the fact that there is one path to Godhood and that the Holy Ghost - who is a he - is on that path? Having the context is a true gift indeed - thank you BruceRGilbert

I have been saying for quite some time that the Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost who is joining the order of the patriarchs. These three layers of ascension that Joseph Smith is discussing wherein one achieves joint heirship with Jesus Christ - that sounds a lot like a conditional servant becoming an unconditional inheritor as Gileadi puts it. I've been saying that the final two signs / tokens align to priest and king - to which we are anointed but are told we are not ... yet. So Joseph Smith basically says Abraham has attained both King and Priest status, talks about joint heirship, and then drops the Holy Ghost truth bomb. The only thing that doesn't quite synthesize with me is where he says not the power of prophet nor patriarch only but of king and priest. Apostles are priests and Dispensation Patriarchs are Kings imho. Still, he's talking about this process of heirship and then says the Holy Ghost is becoming an heir himself - at least that's how I read it. That's how I read this:

Psalm 110:4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

The Davidic psalms are somtimes assumed to be about King David but it is well known that they point to a future King David. In fact, the original King David may have less to do with these messianic psalms then folks realize other than he was a type and recipient of the Davidic Covenant which is about ... Kingship.

In the Sermon, Elias, Elijah, Messiah, Joseph Smith again speaks of three levels of power. He then drops this bomb:

Now for Elijah. The spirit, power, and calling of Elijah is, that ye have power to hold the key of the revelation, ordinances, oracles, powers and endowments of the fullness of the Melchizedek Priesthood and of the kingdom of God on the earth; and to receive, obtain, and perform all the ordinances belonging to the kingdom of God, even unto the turning of the hearts of the fathers unto the children, and the hearts of the children unto the fathers, even those who are in heaven.
...
Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the Priesthood; and the Priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage.

See how the Holy Ghost and King David prophecies here match? Both are about these three levels of power and both talk about one who is going through this path of receiving a full heirship with Christ (Willard Richards / Joseph Smith Diary above regarding the Holy Ghost) and one is receiving a kingdom and fullness of Priesthood power - Latter-day King David.

The Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost folks. I know this is not what this thread is about, but I started it so there!

From the Willard Richard / Joseph Smith diary:

He showed that the power of the Melchisek P'd was to have the power of an "endless lives." The footnote here points to D&C 132 where the continuation of the seed is also mentioned in addition to "endless lives." Compare to Ezekiel 37:

Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

[Davka]

This thought may or may not be relevant, but it is something that has been on my mind this week so I will throw it out there.

Is there a difference between priesthood power and priesthood authority?

I submit that there is. Priesthood authority is what the men in our church receive. It was taken away, or lost, and then restored. It is the authority primarily to perform ordinances and administer in the Church. It is all about keys and is given to the group God chooses at whatever given time.

The problem is, we assume that when's 12 year old boy is ordained a deacon, he is receiving priesthood power, when really he is only being given priesthood authority. And I would contend that priesthood authority is not contingent on righteousness to be efficacious. This is why a 16 year old priest can break the law of chastity on Saturday night and when he blesses the sacrament Sunday morning it is not a null and void ordinance. Because the authority and keys are there so long as his priesthood leader has not declared him unable to use them.

Priesthood power, on the other hand, is gained by faith and righteousness. I don't have exact references available at the moment, but this is a very clear doctrine. Priesthood power is not given by the laying on of hands, but by action, and faith. When that unworthy young priest blesses the sacrament, the power of the ordinance is still there for the individuals -- priesthood "holders" or not. Jesus, of course, had more priesthood power than anyone, but interestingly, no priesthood authority. He wasn't a Levite. So why did he have more priesthood power? Because he had more faith and was more righteous than anyone regardless of not being in the group appointed to officiate the ordinances.

I would also submit that it is possible for women to have and exercise priesthood power through faith and righteousness, but they must rely on their husband to exercise priesthood authority.

A man who has priesthood authority have priesthood power too if he has faith and is righteous. Even stronger is a righteous man ordained to the priesthood, sealed to a righteous wife. This is the ideal combination and is the kind of priesthood that works miracles.

Just some ideas I've had.

If I am right, would it be possible for one kind of priesthood, say authority, to be taken away and the other to remain, or vice versa?

[I AM]

This isn't a gotcha thread or an "I know the answer - do you?" thread that thankfully we don't see much of anymore here on LDSFF. Legitimately, I am curious if this could happen to our church. If you know of a scripture or a prophetic statement that says this could not happen, please share. Here's my thinking:

D&C 13:1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

I know we don't have record of the blessing that Peter, James, and John gave to Joseph Smith, but no such promise is recorded (that I am aware of.) I've grown up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so I am aware that many members say the Priesthood will never be removed and that the attitude is both Priesthoods - but do we have assurances that both Priesthoods will persist with us?

So, Jesus ordained P,J&J during His mortal ministry. "The Angel of God" ordained John the Baptist (if you follow my articles / threads, you may know who I suspect this "Angel" to be) when John was eight days old, which is a cool modern revelation. I mean, who gets ordained to the Priesthood at 8 days old?

D&C 84:27 Which gospel is the gospel of brepentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.
28 For he was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power.

There are other cool morsels in here such as the end of said ordination is to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews and make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people. This promise likely extend to exactly what John alludes to in Malachi 3:

1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

The hebrew word "messenger" is the same word for "angel." The angel of the covenant is very likely the same angel who ordained John at age eight. The first word "Lord" in verse 1 is not YHWH but more like the traditional meaning of "Lord." The second LORD is JEHOVAH / YHWH in verse 1 - saith YHWH of hosts. He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver is the angel of the Lord - the messenger of the covenant who is likely the same angel who ordained John - the Lesser High Priest of the Lesser Priesthood. Anyway, I'm getting off track a bit, but remember Moroni quoted these same verses to Joseph Smith from Malachi.

There is a great thread in outer darkness, started by Finrock, discussing who the high priests are. I have opined that the Melchizedek Priesthood has been given us to taste of the powers of the world to come. What if that's true and we have been given the Higher Priesthood as a "taste" or a trial. I mean, of course it's a trial, but this perspective - along with D&C 13 - is what is leading me to ask this question: Could the Lord take from us the Melchizedek Priesthood?

Well, there is D&C 124: 28

28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

It seems to casually mention that the fullness of the priesthood was taken away. This would suggest that it’s possible to have it taken.

Fascinating.

How about this?

3 Nephi 16:10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

Now I don't believe Ephraim = Gentiles as some do on this forum. At some point, the 10 tribes are crowned by Ephraim (D&C 133) so that seems to indicate Ephraim has the Melchizedek Priesthood in some form at that point.

However, "I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them" is certainly curious word choice. Bring? And what does it mean to bring the fulness from among them? Is this when the church is given wings and flies into the wilderness?

Another thought here - if we have been given a portion of the Higher Priesthood, might it be taken away at some point for reasons other than we didn't do so well on our tasting of the powers of the world to come. Some examples:

* The Higher Priesthood was only intended to be here until the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled and is taken away temporarily in anticipation of the coming of the true High Priests of Melchizedek - the 144,000 - or to point to the coming of the Davidic Servant, or both.

* The Higher Priesthood is taken away as part of a sifting - those who are remain (remnant) then receive the fulness or a fuller portion of the Priesthood.

etc.

------------

one does't have to look very far in the Book of Mormon, and it's seems quite obvious to see that
"I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them"
*** (continue with the verses) *** (below)
means that now He will take the gospel from us, and give it back to The House of Israel.
There are many places in the Book of Mormon that describe this reversal -
from us - The Gentiles - back to The House of Israel.

the first will be last and the last, first
At the first, the Jews (in the Book of Mormon vernacular, meaning the house of Israel) were redeemed, then they rejected God and the gospel was taken to the Gentiles. (Acts 10.) In these last days, Joseph Smith restored the gospel among the Gentiles; and when they reject it, it will be taken back to the Jews, and they will be redeemed. Hence, the first will be last and the last, first.
(1 Ne. 13:42; Jacob 5:63; Ether 13:12; D&C 88:59; Matt. 19:30; 20:8,16.)

1 Nephi 15
13 And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed—

Have we forgotten the covenant the Lord made with
The House of Israel ? YES ! but The Lord hasn't.
The Lord WILL remember it !

2 Nephi 29
5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.


At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall reject my gospel.
Can you reject a gift not offered you?
Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has had the fulness of the gospel revealed to them,
so only we can reject it?

and Jesus doesn't say "if" - He says"WHEN"

*** 3 Nephi 16:11,12, 10
11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel,
and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles SHALL NOT have POWER over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father,
I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
(to continue see above verses 11,12 )

quote
"Christ levelled His own charge that iniquity would prevail among Gentile members of His Church in the last days in these words:

At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel… and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations… (3 Nephi 16:10)

That He was referring to members of His Church in this passage is evident not only from the fact that He states that the Gentiles
will sin against His gospel, but also in discussing the possibility of their failing to repent,
He refers to them as the “Salt of the earth:”

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39–40)"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness,
and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51261&p=924410&hili ... re#p924410

These Gentiles have no charity for their fellow beings. They don't thank the Jews nor Lehi's descendants for the scriptures they have received from them. Instead, they curse and hate them and will not recover them. The Lord lengthens out his arm to the Gentiles all the day long. But they mar the Lord's servant who brings forth His words. Their rejecting the Lord's servant and their rejecting the gospel doubly testifies of their apostasy; Nephi, therefore, offers no hope for the Gentiles unless they reconcile themselves to Christ.
Although the Gentiles know God's decrees on this land, many allow secret combinations to get above them. Drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations, they suffer woes- God's covenant curse. When they reject his words, the Lord cuts them off from his people.

He removes the fullness of his gospel from among the wicked, giving it to those who will receive it.
(3 Nephi 16:10; 20:28-31; Eth. 12:35)
With the wicked Gentiles' apostasy and its aftermath, the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Lord turns the iniquities of the Gentiles upon their own heads.
He comes out in justice against them.
The wicked Gentiles bring down the fullness of God's wrath, just as the Jaredites and Nephites did.
The Lord visits the Gentiles "with thunder and with earthquake, and with a great noise, and with storm, and with tempest, and with the flame of devouring fire".
The sword of justices falls on the wicked Gentiles. He destroys the Gentiles; cities and chariots and executes vengeance and fury upon them. He covers their land with a desolating sickness.
A scourge consumes the wicked.
The unrepentant Gentiles cannot stand before God's power. Lehi's descendants, whom God empowers, marshal themselves and vex the wicked Gentiles.
They go among the Gentiles like a lion among the beasts, treading down and tearing to pieces. Lehi's descendants, who are of the house of Israel, inherit the Gentiles' lands and cities. The Lord reestablishes Lehi's descendants in this land, even as the wicked Gentiles perish.
Although the scriptures say that the Gentiles will perish, the Lord doesn't utterly destroy them. Some Gentiles, as we have seen, turn from their evil ways. Some don't harden their hearts. They don't unite with that great and abominable church nor fight against Zion. These Gentiles know where their blessings come from - they know that the Lord has blessed them with the blessings of Israel.
To save as many Gentiles as will come to him, the Lord calls on them before the day of judgement. he stirs up the Gentiles and the house of Israel in order to persuade them to repent. The Gentiles must repent and not continue in iniquity. They must forthwith repent and humble themselves. If they do, it will be well with them. As they repent and come to the Lord, he will be merciful to them. Those Gentiles who repent and obey the words of Christ will be blessed.
The Gentiles who come unto Christ receive baptism; they obtain a remission of their sins and are filled with the Holy Ghost. When the Gentiles come unto Christ, he shows them their weakness; yet his grace suffices for those who humble themselves. Faith, hope, and charity bring the Gentiles of Christ, the fountain of all righteousness. The Lord saves the righteous Gentiles both temporally and spiritually.
After manifesting himself to the Gentiles, the Lord manifests himself to the Jews. The gospel goes first to the Gentiles and then to the house of Israel.
The Gentiles take the gospel to Lehi's descendants, and also to the Jews. The Twelve, the Seventy, and other Latter-day Saints assist in carrying the gospel of the Jews.

When the Lord lifts up his hand to the Gentiles, they serve as an "ensign/standard" to the house of Israel.
The house of Israel receives the Book of Mormon through the fullness of the Gentiles. That involves, additionally, the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. "Other books" go forth from the righteous Gentiles to the house of Israel. These books convince the house of Israel of the truthfulness of the gospel and they are blessed again under the covenant.
The Lord softens many Gentiles' hearts toward Lehi's descendants. Many care for the house of Israel and sorrow for their destruction. They curse the house of Israel and serve as fathers and mothers to them. They minister the gospel's fullness to Lehi's descendants. The Lord consecrates the Gentiles' riches to the poor of the house of Israel.
Thus are the natural branches grafted back into the olive tree.
When the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, the Jews again gather to Jerusalem. The righteous Gentiles assist the house of Israel in gathering them from dispersion; they carry the house of Israel to the lands fo their inheritance. They assist Lehi's descendants to gather to the New Jerusalem. They help Lehi's descendants build the city. The Lord's promises are great to the Gentiles. The Lord blesses the righteous Gentiles by numbering them with the house of Israel. The Lord numbers many Gentiles with Lehi's descendants. The Lord has promised this land to Lehi's descendants.
Like them, the righteous Gentiles are blessed on this land forever.
Like them, these Gentiles come down captive no more. The righteous Gentiles also are the covenant people of the Lord.

Analysis of the term Gentiles in the scriptures thus supports our earlier findings about the Gentiles; latter-day mission. But it yields a complete and more detailed picture of what that mission is all about. The question of identities - of Latter-day Saint "Gentiles" and other inhabitants of the Americas- is her resolved.
The twofold nature of the Gentiles in the last days- with some numbered among Lehi's descendants and others cut off from the Lord's people- transcends our Latter-day Saint identity. Those who make their calling and election sure are called "Gentiles", even as those cut off from the Lord's covenant are called "Gentiles". In the end, however, the repentant Gentiles assume the identity of the house of Israel whereas the unrepentant are destroyed. Together with other gentile inhabitants of the Americas, the unrepentant remain "Gentiles" and suffer God's judgments.
Latter-day Saints who fulfill their righteous mission, therefore, are known as Gentiles but only for an interim period.
The interval between the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the Lord's day of judgment serves as a time of probation that determines which identity will emerge. As with all the Lord's covenants, that probationary period enables us to prove our faithfulness and to receive the promised blessings. Just as the Jews anciently ministered the gospel to the Gentiles, so will the Gentiles minister it to the house of Israel."

end quote

Isaiah 49:3 1 Nephi 21:3
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant,
O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

2 Nephi 6:18 Isaiah 49:26
18 "And I will feed them that oppress thee, with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood as with sweet wine; and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Savior and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."

3 Nephi 21
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.

[Alaris]

That He was referring to members of His Church in this passage is evident not only from the fact that He states that the Gentiles
will sin against His gospel, but also in discussing the possibility of their failing to repent,
He refers to them as the “Salt of the earth:”

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39–40)"

I've been spending a lot of time in this chapter as of late. The full context here is important, and taking the word "salt" and shoehorning the gentiles and Ephraim together into a savorless salt shaker seems like an overreach. I mean, there's Isaiah 28 where Ephraim is not in a great condition. But there's also D&C 133 where the 10 tribes return to Ephraim and receive crowns from Ephraim (and um not the gentiles.) So let's not get carried away. Those two extra-3 Nephi 16 scriptures could support your equation of Ephraim = Gentiles, but the full context seems clear to me. These are the gentiles who have joined Ephraim of whom the Lord speaks in 3 Nephi 16 imho

3 Nephi 16:10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.
13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.
14 And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father.
15 But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel.

You seem to be conflating gentiles with Ephraim and it's just not so. Ephraim is the tribe that was foreordained to bring the Gospel to the gentiles. WHEN (as you said) the gentiles sin against the Gospel, notice how the Lord says he will BRING the gospel from among them. Curious word choice in the most correct of all books on Earth. The next verse reads the Lord will BRING the gospel unto Israel. By whom? Personally, I think this all matches your other brilliant equation of Matthew 24 eagle carcass = Isaiah 66 nation born in a day = Revelation 12. Let's look at Revelation 12 right quick.

14 Therefore to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might flee into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Hrm... eagle - coincidence?

28 And now I shew unto you a parable: Behold, wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together; so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth.

Hrm, eagles gathered together ... in the wilderness? Might the elect include the birthright tribe?

That all said, this metaphor could mean a lot of things. I do think you're over-conflating gentiles with Ephraim who isn't just included with "Israel" but is the birthright tribe. 3 Nephi 16:15 seems to be referring to the Gentiles who joined the order of salt, sinned, were booted and then never repent. It seems as though the Lord is giving the gentiles a time to repent in the traditional ways of urged repentance - famine, sword, etc. The gospel to the gentiles is about gathering new Israelites into Israel. Once adopted, they're Israel, but they're still newbies. Those who are born to Israel are oldies. imho

[Robin Hood]

This thought may or may not be relevant, but it is something that has been on my mind this week so I will throw it out there.

Is there a difference between priesthood power and priesthood authority?

I submit that there is. Priesthood authority is what the men in our church receive. It was taken away, or lost, and then restored. It is the authority primarily to perform ordinances and administer in the Church. It is all about keys and is given to the group God chooses at whatever given time.

The problem is, we assume that when's 12 year old boy is ordained a deacon, he is receiving priesthood power, when really he is only being given priesthood authority. And I would contend that priesthood authority is not contingent on righteousness to be efficacious. This is why a 16 year old priest can break the law of chastity on Saturday night and when he blesses the sacrament Sunday morning it is not a null and void ordinance. Because the authority and keys are there so long as his priesthood leader has not declared him unable to use them.

Priesthood power, on the other hand, is gained by faith and righteousness. I don't have exact references available at the moment, but this is a very clear doctrine. Priesthood power is not given by the laying on of hands, but by action, and faith. When that unworthy young priest blesses the sacrament, the power of the ordinance is still there for the individuals -- priesthood "holders" or not. Jesus, of course, had more priesthood power than anyone, but interestingly, no priesthood authority. He wasn't a Levite. So why did he have more priesthood power? Because he had more faith and was more righteous than anyone regardless of not being in the group appointed to officiate the ordinances.

I would also submit that it is possible for women to have and exercise priesthood power through faith and righteousness, but they must rely on their husband to exercise priesthood authority.

A man who has priesthood authority have priesthood power too if he has faith and is righteous. Even stronger is a righteous man ordained to the priesthood, sealed to a righteous wife. This is the ideal combination and is the kind of priesthood that works miracles.

Just some ideas I've had.

If I am right, would it be possible for one kind of priesthood, say authority, to be taken away and the other to remain, or vice versa?

Good point.
Think of a police officer. His badge is his authority, his gun is his power.
Too often in the church, we rely only on the badge.

[Kingdom of ZION]

The pattern is that it is always lost shortly after it is restored. And with it's passing, so do the signs prophesied to follow those who has this the Melchizedek Priesthood. There was a clear departure from those gifts, attested to by many after 1890. Fruits my Brethren... Fruits IS how one can discern the truth of such events. Yes it was prophesied, and yes it has come to pass, but those prophesy did not come with a date attached. However, for Joseph Smith, the year he most looked forward to was 1890 (see the D&C and History of the Church, for the reason why).

I am not here to convince you of my witness, only to share it, and point the way to finding your own witness. Prayer is the real answer to finding out the all the true acts of G_d in this world.

Shalom

[rimbauer.peter]

Alaris
you are amazing, dude!

[Alaris]

These two Joseph Smith sermons...though I don't know if I can call the notes on the three priesthoods a sermon...one on the three priesthoods and one on Elias Elijah Messiah, have been swimming around in my head.

In one of them Joseph says the Aaronic Priesthood is the Priesthood of judgment and destruction. I've often wondered if the destroying angel of the Exodus is the same angel of the Lord who is quite clearly the spokesman for YHWH just as Aaron is the spokesman for Moses.

That word joseph uses....destruction....is represented in a hebrew word that links the angel of death in Exodus 12 to the angel of the Lord in 1 Chronicles 21 where David sees this angel and his sword as he is executing judgment and destruction upon Israel for sinning against YHWH.

I'll likely post on this tomorrow and probably in The Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost thread as I'm veering off topic here. I just wanted to share here how amazing these discoveries are that continually reinforce this truth. The irony that David is staring in awe and fear of the one who will eventually receive the fulness of the priesthood that he never received along with his throne and kingdom.

But this role of judgment and destruction that links to the priesthood of Aaron and to the Angel of the Lord of whom Aaron himself is a type is truly incredible.