Husband & Wife Roles

[Alaris]

https://www.lds.org/topics/family-procl ... g&old=true

ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

I don't want this to be "my" thread, so I will only give some suggestions of things to discuss, but I will ask that all keep this cordial as we are all sensitive to the adversary's attack on families. Remember the principles of patience, persuasion, long-suffering while discussing the roles of husbands and wives. Let's seek to understand each other to help each other come into a unity of faith rather than try to prove people wrong and ourselves right.

The timing of this post is due to discussions that have popped up surrounding the recent 2019 changes in the endowment ceremony. My personal take is the changes have been a reflection of the time and season of the Law of the Gospel that includes the first massive (again imho) celestial marriage initiative on Earth. I can expound my own personal belief, but suffice it to say there are several possible takes on the endowment change:

1. The changes reflect eternal truth surrounding our personal progression (+1 vote from me)
2. The changes reflect our modernizing language and the role of women to "correct" the errors that were established by the weakness of men who simply reflected views of the time (women didn't have the right to vote until 1919 - long after the endowment was first revealed)
3. The changes are simply a reflection of a church that has lost its way and has caved to social pressure
4. etc.

Bottom line - either the changes reflect something eternally significant or they do not. I personally believe they do and believe the prior versions were as they should have been as we have been lead by continuous revelation throughout. I believe the language that changed from covenanting to obey husbands to hearkening husbands to obeying God is a systemic progression that reflect our time and season (which Eve has traversed through already imho) rather than Eve herself, if that makes sense. Happy to expound.

However, the intent of this thread is really to think one step past the endowment changes and address this question first and foremost:

What should the roles of husbands and wives be in a family that would be in alignment with God's will and design?

A secondary question:

Has that changed along with the temple endowment - if so, how?

[passionflower]

I totally agree with you that prior versions needed to be revamped, especially on one point in particular.

I for one am very happy that any and all references to Eve being smarter, wiser, and more forward thinking in using her agency, as compared to Adam, have been completely erased from the new endowment. That story was never true, and was created for the 1990 film to placate women who complained about there not being enough women scriptural role models. I am not making that up. I know it for a fact.

II most surely call it a move forward now that the temple endowment no longer "gives" permission for the male bashing that I have suffered through in the last five wards I have been in since 1990.

Yes I call this a move forward in the roles of husbands and wives.

And another one:
President Hinckley kept a file full of letters written by women who complained about their husbands, causing Pres Hinckley to publicly chastise every guy in the church. When the men came back wanting equal time, he refused to give it to them.
Well that kind of stuff should be over now. Since men and women are "equal before God", that situation can now be seen for what it is, unjust, as both parties, the husband as well as the wife, were not at least heard out with equal attention and sympathy "before God"..

Yes I call this progress in the name of equality between men and women in the church.

And when a divorced man goes in for a temple recommend, he has to be fully paying child support, etc, and he always bears the brunt of a court biased in favor of women. I would think one way to equal this out, is to have divorced women also questioned in temple interviews as to whether their demands in the divorce court were fair and just, and she has to prove this.

Yes, I call this progress in the name of equality of men and women in the church.

Women relate to the world through their right brain, men through the left. I would imagine these differences would now be treated in an equal light. Just a few weeks ago, on this forum a female poster went on about Christ like love and how men didn't seem to have it and needed to work on it. Without her realizing it, she was describing Christ like love as only the emotionally connecting to others through the right brain. Well, that shouldn't ever be argued anymore. Since this new temple presentation, we better start treating the left brain type or "love" as just as valid and Christ like as the right brain kind and not less than or needing to be fixed.

For eons, sisters have been told they don't have to get married unless they find the "right" one. And if they remain single for their entire lives, oh well, they will not be denied any blessings and somehow, somewhere their Mr Right will be granted them . However, for men, the word on the street and from the pulpit has always been, "if you aren't married before you turn 25, you aren't living your religion".
If men and women are on equal grounds before God, this stance has to go the way of the dodo. And heck yeah, I think doing so would be a big step forward.

All my husband had this question about the new endowment: " if men and women are equal before God, why do I have to stand up when Eve enters the scene?"

[brianj]

I would like to steer this in a slightly different direction. Since we shouldn't discuss particulars of temple ordinances let's use Ephesians 5 22 to 30 as a subject of discussion. And let me point out that there's no JST for Ephesians 5.
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

I have never heard a woman say anything against verses 25 through 30 but have come across a lot of women who have big problems with 22 through 24. I have heard women mock their husbands, mock scripture, and even mock God over the idea that they should submit to anybody. I have listened to women in church explain why they are above the guidance to council with their husbands or consider anything he has to say. Some women justify this attitude by claiming that if their husband doesn't live his part to perfection she has no obligation to reverence her husband.

So I am curious to hear people, particularly women, discuss if they believe these instructions are a commandment, only an ideal we may never live like the law of consecration, or something that doesn't apply to them.

[Jonesy]

I have never heard a woman say anything against verses 25 through 30 but have come across a lot of women who have big problems with 22 through 24. I have heard women mock their husbands, mock scripture, and even mock God over the idea that they should submit to anybody. I have listened to women in church explain why they are above the guidance to council with their husbands or consider anything he has to say. Some women justify this attitude by claiming that if their husband doesn't live his part to perfection she has no obligation to reverence her husband.

I wish some women would just test the word on this. They may just find out that it’s actually divinely inspired to both their favor.

[Sarah]

I have never heard a woman say anything against verses 25 through 30 but have come across a lot of women who have big problems with 22 through 24. I have heard women mock their husbands, mock scripture, and even mock God over the idea that they should submit to anybody. I have listened to women in church explain why they are above the guidance to council with their husbands or consider anything he has to say. Some women justify this attitude by claiming that if their husband doesn't live his part to perfection she has no obligation to reverence her husband.

I wish some women would just test the word on this. They may just find out that it’s actually divinely inspired to both their favor.

I agree that it does work and it is a good commandment. A wife learns that her submission will change her man for the better if the man is humble. But I also believe if a man truely loves his wife and hearkens to the Lord, the Holy Ghost will tell him that he should hearken to her in many instances, after couseling together. The Lord has revealed the right way to preside and counsel together in the latter days. So the wife must learn one blessing of submission, the husband another, but if he is truely hearkening to the Lord he will hearken to his wife's counsel as well, for he gave her to be a companion and helpmeet.

I personally don't know any woman who has complained openly about the need to hearken to her husband. My guess is that the majority of complaints and letters are coming from women whose husbands are not worthy of following.

[Alaris]

I have never heard a woman say anything against verses 25 through 30 but have come across a lot of women who have big problems with 22 through 24. I have heard women mock their husbands, mock scripture, and even mock God over the idea that they should submit to anybody. I have listened to women in church explain why they are above the guidance to council with their husbands or consider anything he has to say. Some women justify this attitude by claiming that if their husband doesn't live his part to perfection she has no obligation to reverence her husband.

I wish some women would just test the word on this. They may just find out that it’s actually divinely inspired to both their favor.

I agree that it does work and it is a good commandment. A wife learns that her submission will change her man for the better if the man is humble. But I also believe if a man truely loves his wife and hearkens to the Lord, the Holy Ghost will tell him that he should hearken to her in many instances, after couseling together. The Lord has revealed the right way to preside and counsel together in the latter days. So the wife must learn one blessing of submission, the husband another, but if he is truely hearkening to the Lord he will hearken to his wife's counsel as well, for he gave her to be a companion and helpmeet.

I personally don't know any woman who has complained openly about the need to hearken to her husband. My guess is that the majority of complaints and letters are coming from women whose husbands are not worthy of following.

I've witnessed women of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who try to consistently dominate and control their husbands. Also, there absolutely is a societal pressure for women to defy anything that could be perceived as a command from a husband. This is certainly the case in my generation.

I'm curious to find out what folks here think about this.

I've watched a video several times of Jordan Peterson where he talks about how women who dominate their husbands receive a high in the moment but are ultimately miserable, and that women need and want strong men. I've seen women who want a strong LDS man as a husband to lead the family but consistently undermine and resist attempts he makes to lead.

This is the video where Mr. Peterson speaks of the misery of women who attempt to control their men (starts just after the three minute mark)

Does your husband get to choose who offers a prayer and that's pretty much it? Or is he enabled to lead and make command decisions?

Of course I'm referring to what we consider to be a leader... Someone who gains the trusts of those who he leads and whose company trusts and follows his leadership. Of course I'm not talking about tyranny... I'm talking about true, righteous leadership per the virtues of the priesthood as detailed in D&C 121: temperance, patience, love unfeigned, and only reproving betimes with sharpness and showing an increase of love after.

A great line from the above video is relationships are ultimately reciprocal which is very interesting to think about. And I agree with Mr Peterson from my much less educated and narrow experience - I've never witnessed a happy relationship where a wife dominates her husband. That may seem obvious to a Latter-day Saint, and though the inverse would lead to unhappiness there seems to be a tangible, concerted effort by the adversary to encourage women to not only undermine their husbands but attempt domination. With the disclaimer of my own narrow experience, who else witnesses this?

[Jonesy]

I have never heard a woman say anything against verses 25 through 30 but have come across a lot of women who have big problems with 22 through 24. I have heard women mock their husbands, mock scripture, and even mock God over the idea that they should submit to anybody. I have listened to women in church explain why they are above the guidance to council with their husbands or consider anything he has to say. Some women justify this attitude by claiming that if their husband doesn't live his part to perfection she has no obligation to reverence her husband.

I wish some women would just test the word on this. They may just find out that it’s actually divinely inspired to both their favor.

I agree that it does work and it is a good commandment. A wife learns that her submission will change her man for the better if the man is humble. But I also believe if a man truely loves his wife and hearkens to the Lord, the Holy Ghost will tell him that he should hearken to her in many instances, after couseling together. The Lord has revealed the right way to preside and counsel together in the latter days. So the wife must learn one blessing of submission, the husband another, but if he is truely hearkening to the Lord he will hearken to his wife's counsel as well, for he gave her to be a companion and helpmeet.

I personally don't know any woman who has complained openly about the need to hearken to her husband. My guess is that the majority of complaints and letters are coming from women whose husbands are not worthy of following.

I agree that is a good application of it.

There’s still more:

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conduct of the wives; while they behold your chaste conduct coupled with fear. Let your adorning be not that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and wearing of gold, or putting on of apparel; but let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in old times the holy women, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands; even as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord; whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do will, and are not afraid with any amazement. (1 Peter 3

As long as the husband, even as a disbeliever of the word, obeys the gospel-prescribed way of influencing, she is bound to obey him. Sure, it is wise for the husband to listen to inspired counsel from his wife, but if not, the submission of the wife will altogether do him good.

The man is the natural decision-maker. I have no doubt that many prophet’s wives were holy women; but what if Lehi’s wife, for example, didn’t obey Lehi to take his family in the wilderness? We know that she must have had great anxieties at certain points of his decisions. The wife has a covenant responsibility to submit to her husband, and is even more important to her than her ecclesiastical leader. If problems should arise, they need to work it out among themselves.

[LadyT]

We are partners. We talk and pray about things together. There have been very few things that we have disagreed with. Some things were done the way I wanted because I was the one doing the heavy lifting (children and pregnancy). Him with his work and his dumb dog.
I have a hard time with saying to be submissive to your husbands. I know too many men who are controlling. They liked to use that fact that they hold the priesthood and are men to get their way. It made me sick to see and hear it.
I was very careful and picky on who I would date and marry for this very reason. My husband is a good man. He will put my needs above his. I trust him 100 percent. ( maybe not with his taste in football and dogs) but it things that really matter, I trust him. I know that he will do his best for our family.

[MMbelieve]

I would like to steer this in a slightly different direction. Since we shouldn't discuss particulars of temple ordinances let's use Ephesians 5 22 to 30 as a subject of discussion. And let me point out that there's no JST for Ephesians 5.
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

I have never heard a woman say anything against verses 25 through 30 but have come across a lot of women who have big problems with 22 through 24. I have heard women mock their husbands, mock scripture, and even mock God over the idea that they should submit to anybody. I have listened to women in church explain why they are above the guidance to council with their husbands or consider anything he has to say. Some women justify this attitude by claiming that if their husband doesn't live his part to perfection she has no obligation to reverence her husband.

So I am curious to hear people, particularly women, discuss if they believe these instructions are a commandment, only an ideal we may never live like the law of consecration, or something that doesn't apply to them.

My question is this, what does a man want his wife to submit to that shes not doing? Instead of using the verses as a large idea, can it be understood first?

There is a large issue with these verses about how man and wife should both be because its just stated, not explained or understood. There are tons of articles and blogs written for the Bible believing Christian to help them understand these verses. That wouldnt be needed if it was easy to know how or to do.

The verse to women, if not discussed and understood sounds exactly like shes got nothing in her life that is hers. Shes giving complete authority over her life to her husband. It places man in a position of absolute authority when only God has that right.
I mean, it just sounds bad. If women took this literally and to mean absolute...i dont think women would want to marry much. No one wants to be a slave or feel inferior or that they must always bow their head and tuck their tail as the one whos treated less than. Its often interpreted this way. No one wants to be told to submit in everything to someone who doesnt have their best interest 1st, and many husbands fall very short of this. Asking a woman to be in this position can create tons of insecurity and fear even. Its asking ALOT and its not easy to do. Im not suprised that women avoid this part (in everything) it creates a problem of some sort in me just having people say it. As it is, its very incomplete and can be harmful if women feel they must listen and follow everything no matter what. It needs explaining and understanding.

Let me ask you/(men) the same question. Is the verse to men a commandment, an ideal we may never live or does it not apply to you(them)? To love your wife as Christ loved the church and to give your life for her. Im not sure this one is really understood either, some say...”sure, ill risk my life to protect my family”...but is that all this means? I think not.

See, we can get critical of women with this but we can also get critical of the men with it. If husbands take this to heart and seriously, they would be respecting their wife and doing everything possible to assist her and forget about himself. We wouldnt have any men using porn, thats for sure. Christ gave his life for and loved the church and thus was always on His fathers business for the sake of the church. Men are not doing this.

Perhaps its just advice for both genders on what would be ideal and nice to make things work in your marriage and make it like heaven on earth. I dont know. They do seem like impossible commands to obey.

[Anja]

i am so grateful to have such a good example in my parents. my mum was always what you might call submissive to my dad. it seems to have been the perfect system for them. one time we went to relief society and this ephesian scripture came up and several sisters start talking about how corrupt men could be and how awful their ex-husband was etc. i was a bit surprised really since i look up so much to my dad, grandad, older brothers etc. my mum then commented that when her and my dad were sealed she felt prompted to submit to him and said she was promised it would help him to learn leadership and what it really means to be like jesus. to have power over someone and use that only to bless them.

[Alaris]

i am so grateful to have such a good example in my parents. my mum was always what you might call submissive to my dad. it seems to have been the perfect system for them. one time we went to relief society and this ephesian scripture came up and several sisters start talking about how corrupt men could be and how awful their ex-husband was etc. i was a bit surprised really since i look up so much to my dad, grandad, older brothers etc. my mum then commented that when her and my dad were sealed she felt prompted to submit to him and said she was promised it would help him to learn leadership and what it really means to be like jesus. to have power over someone and use that only to bless them.

Great comment - thank you. I think we need to define what submissive means. Women submitting to their husbands is extremely taboo in our society, but how is a husband to lead a family if his wife doesn't allow him? I think many here will talk past each other if we don't get really specific - so what do you mean your mom submitted to your dad? Can you give examples?

Here are some examples of unhealthy behaviors imho:

Wives correcting their husbands in front of the kids - especially over minutia. If it's that important, take a sideline. If not, let it go. This doesn't mean husbands correct their wives in front of the kids either.

Let your husband "own" decisions and follow his lead as you would any leader.

I wish I had time to post more - if anyone has some more examples of where we should be to enable our husbands lead rather than undermine or outright sabotage it - greatly appreciated. The bottom line is, what kind of men do you want your sons to be? Do you want them to be powerful leaders? That starts in the home. What kind of women do you want your daughters to be? Do you want them to contend and challenge their husbands in a healthy way that empowers them to be better leaders, or do you want your daughters to undermine their husbands authority?

Or do you even believe husbands have presiding authority? See what I mean? I think we should get real clear on behaviors, but I will presume most in this thread agree husbands should lead their families. If you don't believe that, please state such. Thank you -

One more quick note - I think this is something that can easily be tried like a seed ala Alma 32 to discover whether the fruit is delicious. There is this silly fear that if wives (or husbands for that matter) ever relent ever, then all is lost. Silly poppycock. Talk to your husband / wife about this issue. Come up with a plan, especially with children in mind. How do we model a presiding husband for the kids' sake so they have something to aspire to?

Alma 13:28 But that ye would humble yourselves before the Lord, and call on his holy name, and watch and pray continually, that ye may not be tempted above that which ye can bear, and thus be led by the Holy Spirit, becoming humble, meek, submissive, patient, full of love and all long-suffering;

Being submissive is only a weakness in the world's view. Only the meek will inherit the earth. The proud and the wicked are those who will be uninvited (see fire insurance scripture on tithing) to the wedding of the bridegroom. So, of course a husband who doesn't himself show meekness and submissiveness shouldn't expect such from his wife (unless she's leading him by example.) This circles back to the original post - what exactly has changed, if anything in male / female dynamics?

[Sarah]

i am so grateful to have such a good example in my parents. my mum was always what you might call submissive to my dad. it seems to have been the perfect system for them. one time we went to relief society and this ephesian scripture came up and several sisters start talking about how corrupt men could be and how awful their ex-husband was etc. i was a bit surprised really since i look up so much to my dad, grandad, older brothers etc. my mum then commented that when her and my dad were sealed she felt prompted to submit to him and said she was promised it would help him to learn leadership and what it really means to be like jesus. to have power over someone and use that only to bless them.

Yes! This is the whole point of women needing to be submissive. It is so the men will have the opportunity to learn to be like Jesus and learn to lead righteously. We must not forget that Jesus is described as meek and submissive to the will of his father. What I think many don't realize is how many men don't get to this point, and loose the respect and trust of their wives. For this reason this commandment is truly Eve's curse, as there are few men that are comparable to the Lord and treat their wives exactly how the Lord treats his Church. God has put us in stronger and weaker positions of power, authority and affluence to test us in how we will give and receive, and gain those Godly attributes. One day soon there will be an accounting, and all the curses will be lifted. Gifts given and not used appropriately will be taken away, and those who did not receive but were submissive will be rewarded. I don't think the ideal is that only the wife be submissive. I think the ideal is that the man is submissive as well. When both are submissive, you have the "divine dilemma" when both are wanting to put the other first. This is how my parents were, and I'm thankful for their example of trying to make sure the other was happy before themselves. I'm reminded of Abraham and how he treated Sarah. After Sarah obeyed Abraham and the Lord, and gave Hagar to Abraham, Hagar started to act a little entitled with her new position, and started to rise up in rebellion to Sarah. She still was Sarah's servant. Sarah came to Abraham and said, what should I do about this? She is not submissive. Abraham, rather than saying, well, you'll just have to get along - she's my wife, he told Sarah to do what she wanted with her. Sarah sent her away as punishment for her behavior, and then Hagar was given a commandment to be submissive to Sarah. Did this make the hierarchy between Sarah and Hagar "right" like Sarah was for some reason eternally entitled to Hagar's servitude? No, but this was all a test for them all to see how generous they each could be.

I think we could compare wives having less than perfect husbands to having a bad boss in the workplace. My husband has had many bosses over the years, and I've had a few, and he loves to talk to me about what makes a great boss and what doesn't. He appreciates a boss that doesn't just hand off work to those beneath him to make his life easier. A boss that cares about his employee's goals and career path, and tries to assist that employee to succeed and use his or her talents. A boss that is forgiving, flexible, and a true friend. I'm afraid that many husbands in their role as "boss" take after the bosses that are just thinking about their own career path, and are looking for ways to make their own job easier. Bosses that "despitefully use" those beneath them, and feel like they have to be in control of all decisions. I think we need to realize that there are many women who have never had a loving, respectful man, or "boss" in their lives, but have been manipulated and used by a man for his own selfish interests. Of course there are good and bad examples of both genders, but I do see why many women have rebelled. It's not right, just like slaves/servants rebelling against their masters isn't right, but just because rebelling isn't right, doesn't make slavery right either.

I think what we see happening in society, with women gaining equal rights, being able to vote, own property, work, divorce their husbands, is part of the lifting of Eve's curse, just as the curse placed upon the African race has been lifted. You have the extreme side of the equation there resentful blacks and women are fighting for affirmative action types of things and looking to punish to have justice. This isn't right of course, but the restricting of freedoms for these groups was not right. What a blessing America is! It has allowed the "slaves to rise up against their masters," in order that the people may be prepared for an era of true equality.

[Alaris]

Yes! This is the whole point of women needing to be submissive. It is so the men will have the opportunity to learn to be like Jesus and learn to lead righteously. We must not forget that Jesus is described as meek and submissive to the will of his father. What I think many don't realize is how many men don't get to this point, and loose the respect and trust of their wives. For this reason this commandment is truly Eve's curse, as there are few men that are comparable to the Lord and treat their wives exactly how the Lord treats his Church. God has put us in stronger and weaker positions of power, authority and affluence to test us in how we will give and receive, and gain those Godly attributes. One day soon there will be an accounting, and all the curses will be lifted. Gifts given and not used appropriately will be taken away, and those who did not receive but were submissive will be rewarded. I don't think the ideal is that only the wife be submissive. I think the ideal is that the man is submissive as well. When both are submissive, you have the "divine dilemma" when both are wanting to put the other first. This is how my parents were, and I'm thankful for their example of trying to make sure the other was happy before themselves. I'm reminded of Abraham and how he treated Sarah. After Sarah obeyed Abraham and the Lord, and gave Hagar to Abraham, Hagar started to act a little entitled with her new position, and started to rise up in rebellion to Sarah. She still was Sarah's servant. Sarah came to Abraham and said, what should I do about this? She is not submissive. Abraham, rather than saying, well, you'll just have to get along - she's my wife, he told Sarah to do what she wanted with her. Sarah sent her away as punishment for her behavior, and then Hagar was given a commandment to be submissive to Sarah. Did this make the hierarchy between Sarah and Hagar "right" like Sarah was for some reason eternally entitled to Hagar's servitude? No, but this was all a test for them all to see how generous they each could be.

I think we could compare wives having less than perfect husbands to having a bad boss in the workplace. My husband has had many bosses over the years, and I've had a few, and he loves to talk to me about what makes a great boss and what doesn't. He appreciates a boss that doesn't just hand off work to those beneath him to make his life easier. A boss that cares about his employee's goals and career path, and tries to assist that employee to succeed and use his or her talents. A boss that is forgiving, flexible, and a true friend. I'm afraid that many husbands in their role as "boss" take after the bosses that are just thinking about their own career path, and are looking for ways to make their own job easier. Bosses that "despitefully use" those beneath them, and feel like they have to be in control of all decisions. I think we need to realize that there are many women who have never had a loving, respectful man, or "boss" in their lives, but have been manipulated and used by a man for his own selfish interests. Of course there are good and bad examples of both genders, but I do see why many women have rebelled. It's not right, just like slaves/servants rebelling against their masters isn't right, but just because rebelling isn't right, doesn't make slavery right either.

I think what we see happening in society, with women gaining equal rights, being able to vote, own property, work, divorce their husbands, is part of the lifting of Eve's curse, just as the curse placed upon the African race has been was lifted. You have the extreme side of the equation there resentful blacks and women are fighting for affirmative action types of things and looking to punish to have justice. This isn't right of course, but the restricting of freedoms for these groups was not right. What a blessing America is! It has allowed the "slaves to rise up against their masters," in order that the people may be prepared for an era of true equality.

This is a fantastic post - thank you. This also helps articulate my somewhat funny / somewhat serious question: What if women are the presiding deities? Everything else about our world is upside down, right? The worst / least mankind has to offer are often the greatest (rich, powerful, etc.) and the best / greatest of mankind are the servants of all. What if women being veiled represents the fact that their true roles have been hidden all along?

I'm not saying I believe Heavenly Mother presides over Heavenly Father, but what's more difficult? Learning to submit to a perfect God while your wife submits to you, or learning to submit to an imperfect husband? I'm not saying either is easy, but you brought up a fantastic point about a good couple submitting to each other, wanting to love and please each other through charity - the perfect love of Christ. I know my wife feels this way about me - I am constantly asking her opinion or asking her how she's doing and showing her that her feelings, thoughts, and happiness are highest among our family members - as it should be imho. However, this brings up another good question - at what point does that break the Lord's model, or does it?

Don't forget, leading and being the one who owns the decision is also hard - especially being imperfect at it. Your boss analogy is great because I've been transitioning to management over the last several years. Many men (it's a male dominated profession) shy away from management as they don't like the added stress / pressure or owning decisions that go wrong. I think the biggest challenge is managing imperfect people. (Think on how that applies to the family.) I didn't realize what a model employee I was to manage until I started managing others.

Who are the bosses I respect the most? The ones that are powerful leaders - who are bold and confident and who make command decisions. Those who are open to feedback and will readily admit when they are wrong and adjust accordingly. These are the best leaders and are the qualities I strive to espouse (see what I did there?) I submit that most women - even non-LDS - ultimately want and need a husband like this but the adversary is working overtime to justify fighting against our husbands leadership rather than working together to accomplish strong leadership.

[Maroriginal1]

The changes to the endowment are either a result of Israel not living up to commands, or added enlightenment because of righteousness. both sides are evident in today’s church, and I see both influencing the changes.

All is not well in Zion. Having served in several RS leadership callings I can attest to this. Pornography perhaps the biggest concern. It is rampant among men in the church especially the youth. Read Hosea 4....there are consequences attached to this sin. Are men truly living up to all the commands set before them? Some, yes! But many are not. How can women be justified to follow these scriptures and commands where sin exists? Must she follow and heed his counsel when he is not living the commandments? The Lord is not asking such of women.

But this is not all on the men. Women are often the “engines” of the home. One of the ways the adversary seeks to destroy homes is to exploit this. Distract the women to be so busy that they ignore their spouse. Ignore seeking and heeding their counsel. Take charge of everything. Strip the man of his obligations and roles. I’m very concerned women are erroneously cheering the recent changes to suit their desires.

It’s a terrible paradox. It is not a gender specific problem. We are all in this fallen world together. I can attest from both personal experiences and mistakes that Ephesians 5 and Moses 4 outlines Gods role for men and women in marriage with tremendous wisdom if lived properly. Women righteously submitting to her husband implies trust, loyalty, care, support, and love for her spouse. These are shields and protections for him. It’s as if you are figuratively arming him for battle and he then protects you and your children in righteousness in return. But
it has to be a mutual partnership!

As to endowment changes being a result of the righteousness of the saints....I see evidence for this as well. Some of the deeper symbolism suggests such but to discuss it on an open forum is neither the time nor place.

[Sarah]

I have never heard a woman say anything against verses 25 through 30 but have come across a lot of women who have big problems with 22 through 24. I have heard women mock their husbands, mock scripture, and even mock God over the idea that they should submit to anybody. I have listened to women in church explain why they are above the guidance to council with their husbands or consider anything he has to say. Some women justify this attitude by claiming that if their husband doesn't live his part to perfection she has no obligation to reverence her husband.

I wish some women would just test the word on this. They may just find out that it’s actually divinely inspired to both their favor.

I agree that it does work and it is a good commandment. A wife learns that her submission will change her man for the better if the man is humble. But I also believe if a man truely loves his wife and hearkens to the Lord, the Holy Ghost will tell him that he should hearken to her in many instances, after couseling together. The Lord has revealed the right way to preside and counsel together in the latter days. So the wife must learn one blessing of submission, the husband another, but if he is truely hearkening to the Lord he will hearken to his wife's counsel as well, for he gave her to be a companion and helpmeet.

I personally don't know any woman who has complained openly about the need to hearken to her husband. My guess is that the majority of complaints and letters are coming from women whose husbands are not worthy of following.

I've witnessed women of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who try to consistently dominate and control their husbands. Also, there absolutely is a societal pressure for women to defy anything that could be perceived as a command from a husband. This is certainly the case in my generation.

I'm curious to find out what folks here think about this.

I've watched a video several times of Jordan Peterson where he talks about how women who dominate their husbands receive a high in the moment but are ultimately miserable, and that women need and want strong men. I've seen women who want a strong LDS man as a husband to lead the family but consistently undermine and resist attempts he makes to lead.

This is the video where Mr. Peterson speaks of the misery of women who attempt to control their men (starts just after the three minute mark)

Does your husband get to choose who offers a prayer and that's pretty much it? Or is he enabled to lead and make command decisions?

Of course I'm referring to what we consider to be a leader... Someone who gains the trusts of those who he leads and whose company trusts and follows his leadership. Of course I'm not talking about tyranny... I'm talking about true, righteous leadership per the virtues of the priesthood as detailed in D&C 121: temperance, patience, love unfeigned, and only reproving betimes with sharpness and showing an increase of love after.

A great line from the above video is relationships are ultimately reciprocal which is very interesting to think about. And I agree with Mr Peterson from my much less educated and narrow experience - I've never witnessed a happy relationship where a wife dominates her husband. That may seem obvious to a Latter-day Saint, and though the inverse would lead to unhappiness there seems to be a tangible, concerted effort by the adversary to encourage women to not only undermine their husbands but attempt domination. With the disclaimer of my own narrow experience, who else witnesses this?

Oh yes, if my husband is around, he always calls on someone to pray, and when we kneel together, he either starts praying himself or will ask me to pray. He is a good leader when it comes to being conscientious about FHE, and things like that. I appreciate his high sense of duty. And when he is around, if he asks the kids to do something, I always try to enforce it, even if it might not have been something I would have said myself. He is a high-achiever, smart and talented, and likes making decisions. I've realized that if I want the benefits of marrying someone like that, I have to realize that with high-achievers, there usually comes the desire to control, and someone who has high expectations for others. Some of the issues I've had with my husband in the past are the high expectations I've felt from him, and his disappointment I feel when I have not met those expectations.

I think a lot of these generalizations and assumptions people are making like, "women are controlling," or "men are controlling" can simply be explained by the fact that people just have different personalities. Some people have lots of opinions and like making things happen, some people are laid back and like others to lead. Jordan Peterson suggests in this video that some women marry weaker men so that they can dominate them, but that could be said for men as well, and how do we not know that they were just simply attracted to each other because one complimented the other. A man who had a strong mother, will be attracted to a woman who likes to make decisions. Growing up, my best girl-friends where always leaders and talkers, and I was always the listener and follower. Each type of personality needs to come into balance, just like the male-female relationship needs to come into balance.

[mgridle1]

The changes to the endowment are either a result of Israel not living up to commands, or added enlightenment because of righteousness. both sides are evident in today’s church, and I see both influencing the changes.

All is not well in Zion. Having served in several RS leadership callings I can attest to this. Pornography perhaps the biggest concern. It is rampant among men in the church especially the youth. Read Hosea 4....there are consequences attached to this sin. Are men truly living up to all the commands set before them? Some, yes! But many are not. How can women be justified to follow these scriptures and commands where sin exists? Must she follow and heed his counsel when he is not living the commandments? The Lord is not asking such of women.

But this is not all on the men. Women are often the “engines” of the home. One of the ways the adversary seeks to destroy homes is to exploit this. Distract the women to be so busy that they ignore their spouse. Ignore seeking and heeding their counsel. Take charge of everything. Strip the man of his obligations and roles. I’m very concerned women are erroneously cheering the recent changes to suit their desires.

It’s a terrible paradox. It is not a gender specific problem. We are all in this fallen world together. I can attest from both personal experiences and mistakes that Ephesians 5 and Moses 4 outlines Gods role for men and women in marriage with tremendous wisdom if lived properly. Women righteously submitting to her husband implies trust, loyalty, care, support, and love for her spouse. These are shields and protections for him. It’s as if you are figuratively arming him for battle and he then protects you and your children in righteousness in return. But
it has to be a mutual partnership!

As to endowment changes being a result of the righteousness of the saints....I see evidence for this as well. Some of the deeper symbolism suggests such but to discuss it on an open forum is neither the time nor place.

Yeap, men are sinning by looking at porn. And women, well women are sinning b/c they aren't raising their children properly. They are raising spoiled, narcissistic, entitled brats.

[Alaris]

The changes to the endowment are either a result of Israel not living up to commands, or added enlightenment because of righteousness. both sides are evident in today’s church, and I see both influencing the changes.

All is not well in Zion. Having served in several RS leadership callings I can attest to this. Pornography perhaps the biggest concern. It is rampant among men in the church especially the youth. Read Hosea 4....there are consequences attached to this sin. Are men truly living up to all the commands set before them? Some, yes! But many are not. How can women be justified to follow these scriptures and commands where sin exists? Must she follow and heed his counsel when he is not living the commandments? The Lord is not asking such of women.

But this is not all on the men. Women are often the “engines” of the home. One of the ways the adversary seeks to destroy homes is to exploit this. Distract the women to be so busy that they ignore their spouse. Ignore seeking and heeding their counsel. Take charge of everything. Strip the man of his obligations and roles. I’m very concerned women are erroneously cheering the recent changes to suit their desires.

It’s a terrible paradox. It is not a gender specific problem. We are all in this fallen world together. I can attest from both personal experiences and mistakes that Ephesians 5 and Moses 4 outlines Gods role for men and women in marriage with tremendous wisdom if lived properly. Women righteously submitting to her husband implies trust, loyalty, care, support, and love for her spouse. These are shields and protections for him. It’s as if you are figuratively arming him for battle and he then protects you and your children in righteousness in return. But
it has to be a mutual partnership!

As to endowment changes being a result of the righteousness of the saints....I see evidence for this as well. Some of the deeper symbolism suggests such but to discuss it on an open forum is neither the time nor place.

Hey - first post! Contrats & Welcome! I love your first and last, well, second-to-last sentences. I don't want to detract from the topic too much, but to address those who are concerned about our church being under condemnation - what do the scriptures show when there are some among God's people and some who are righteous? Eventually there is a separation and cleansing. If you think about the endowment changes, this is a perfect blessing that is masked to the wicked and open to the righteous pre - sifting.

Take heart that not all LDS men suffer with pornography. My poor sister assumed all men watched porn after her recent divorce. Her husband (now) that she was dating at the time, and I convinced her otherwise (which is why I allowed him to marry her )

Without divulging too much into the levels & orders of mankind, the law of this time and season has been the law of the gospel, so of course our men have struggled greatly with the next successive law: the law of chastity. This is why the 144,000 high priests are described as virgins (chaste) for they have mastered the law of chastity.

I will challenge one thing you said about women not following their husbands who are living in sin - what should they do? One one extreme, if women are waiting for their husbands to be perfect first, that's clearly not justification to ignore their husbands lead. On the other extreme, well, there's divorce. Of course pornography isn't necessarily grounds alone for divorce, but is certainly somewhere between the two extremes: should she not let him lead at all if he's struggling with porn?

[Sarah]

Yes! This is the whole point of women needing to be submissive. It is so the men will have the opportunity to learn to be like Jesus and learn to lead righteously. We must not forget that Jesus is described as meek and submissive to the will of his father. What I think many don't realize is how many men don't get to this point, and loose the respect and trust of their wives. For this reason this commandment is truly Eve's curse, as there are few men that are comparable to the Lord and treat their wives exactly how the Lord treats his Church. God has put us in stronger and weaker positions of power, authority and affluence to test us in how we will give and receive, and gain those Godly attributes. One day soon there will be an accounting, and all the curses will be lifted. Gifts given and not used appropriately will be taken away, and those who did not receive but were submissive will be rewarded. I don't think the ideal is that only the wife be submissive. I think the ideal is that the man is submissive as well. When both are submissive, you have the "divine dilemma" when both are wanting to put the other first. This is how my parents were, and I'm thankful for their example of trying to make sure the other was happy before themselves. I'm reminded of Abraham and how he treated Sarah. After Sarah obeyed Abraham and the Lord, and gave Hagar to Abraham, Hagar started to act a little entitled with her new position, and started to rise up in rebellion to Sarah. She still was Sarah's servant. Sarah came to Abraham and said, what should I do about this? She is not submissive. Abraham, rather than saying, well, you'll just have to get along - she's my wife, he told Sarah to do what she wanted with her. Sarah sent her away as punishment for her behavior, and then Hagar was given a commandment to be submissive to Sarah. Did this make the hierarchy between Sarah and Hagar "right" like Sarah was for some reason eternally entitled to Hagar's servitude? No, but this was all a test for them all to see how generous they each could be.

I think we could compare wives having less than perfect husbands to having a bad boss in the workplace. My husband has had many bosses over the years, and I've had a few, and he loves to talk to me about what makes a great boss and what doesn't. He appreciates a boss that doesn't just hand off work to those beneath him to make his life easier. A boss that cares about his employee's goals and career path, and tries to assist that employee to succeed and use his or her talents. A boss that is forgiving, flexible, and a true friend. I'm afraid that many husbands in their role as "boss" take after the bosses that are just thinking about their own career path, and are looking for ways to make their own job easier. Bosses that "despitefully use" those beneath them, and feel like they have to be in control of all decisions. I think we need to realize that there are many women who have never had a loving, respectful man, or "boss" in their lives, but have been manipulated and used by a man for his own selfish interests. Of course there are good and bad examples of both genders, but I do see why many women have rebelled. It's not right, just like slaves/servants rebelling against their masters isn't right, but just because rebelling isn't right, doesn't make slavery right either.

I think what we see happening in society, with women gaining equal rights, being able to vote, own property, work, divorce their husbands, is part of the lifting of Eve's curse, just as the curse placed upon the African race has been was lifted. You have the extreme side of the equation there resentful blacks and women are fighting for affirmative action types of things and looking to punish to have justice. This isn't right of course, but the restricting of freedoms for these groups was not right. What a blessing America is! It has allowed the "slaves to rise up against their masters," in order that the people may be prepared for an era of true equality.

This is a fantastic post - thank you. This also helps articulate my somewhat funny / somewhat serious question: What if women are the presiding deities? Everything else about our world is upside down, right? The worst / least mankind has to offer are often the greatest (rich, powerful, etc.) and the best / greatest of mankind are the servants of all. What if women being veiled represents the fact that their true roles have been hidden all along?

I'm not saying I believe Heavenly Mother presides over Heavenly Father, but what's more difficult? Learning to submit to a perfect God while your wife submits to you, or learning to submit to an imperfect husband? I'm not saying either is easy, but you brought up a fantastic point about a good couple submitting to each other, wanting to love and please each other through charity - the perfect love of Christ. I know my wife feels this way about me - I am constantly asking her opinion or asking her how she's doing and showing her that her feelings, thoughts, and happiness are highest among our family members - as it should be imho. However, this brings up another good question - at what point does that break the Lord's model, or does it?

Don't forget, leading and being the one who owns the decision is also hard - especially being imperfect at it. Your boss analogy is great because I've been transitioning to management over the last several years. Many men (it's a male dominated profession) shy away from management as they don't like the added stress / pressure or owning decisions that go wrong. I think the biggest challenge is managing imperfect people. (Think on how that applies to the family.) I didn't realize what a model employee I was to manage until I started managing others.

Who are the bosses I respect the most? The ones that are powerful leaders - who are bold and confident and who make command decisions. Those who are open to feedback and will readily admit when they are wrong and adjust accordingly. These are the best leaders and are the qualities I strive to espouse (see what I did there?) I submit that most women - even non-LDS - ultimately want and need a husband like this but the adversary is working overtime to justify fighting against our husbands leadership rather than working together to accomplish strong leadership.

You sound like a great husband!

I know there are lots of women who are fighting against their husband's leadership, because they want some control and say, and feel like they have to fight for it. That's not right, and I think the message should be that they should each counsel together correctly, with the husband presiding, which ultimately means they should both talk it out and come to unity on the subject, and the husband makes sure that happens. And you're right, that puts more responsibility on the one presiding to help everyone reach the right decision. But I don't see women presiding in the hereafter. I don't know what it will look like honestly, but I think the ideal would be a true partnership, where you each discuss an issue respectfully until unity can be reached.

[Alaris]

Yes! This is the whole point of women needing to be submissive. It is so the men will have the opportunity to learn to be like Jesus and learn to lead righteously. We must not forget that Jesus is described as meek and submissive to the will of his father. What I think many don't realize is how many men don't get to this point, and loose the respect and trust of their wives. For this reason this commandment is truly Eve's curse, as there are few men that are comparable to the Lord and treat their wives exactly how the Lord treats his Church. God has put us in stronger and weaker positions of power, authority and affluence to test us in how we will give and receive, and gain those Godly attributes. One day soon there will be an accounting, and all the curses will be lifted. Gifts given and not used appropriately will be taken away, and those who did not receive but were submissive will be rewarded. I don't think the ideal is that only the wife be submissive. I think the ideal is that the man is submissive as well. When both are submissive, you have the "divine dilemma" when both are wanting to put the other first. This is how my parents were, and I'm thankful for their example of trying to make sure the other was happy before themselves. I'm reminded of Abraham and how he treated Sarah. After Sarah obeyed Abraham and the Lord, and gave Hagar to Abraham, Hagar started to act a little entitled with her new position, and started to rise up in rebellion to Sarah. She still was Sarah's servant. Sarah came to Abraham and said, what should I do about this? She is not submissive. Abraham, rather than saying, well, you'll just have to get along - she's my wife, he told Sarah to do what she wanted with her. Sarah sent her away as punishment for her behavior, and then Hagar was given a commandment to be submissive to Sarah. Did this make the hierarchy between Sarah and Hagar "right" like Sarah was for some reason eternally entitled to Hagar's servitude? No, but this was all a test for them all to see how generous they each could be.

I think we could compare wives having less than perfect husbands to having a bad boss in the workplace. My husband has had many bosses over the years, and I've had a few, and he loves to talk to me about what makes a great boss and what doesn't. He appreciates a boss that doesn't just hand off work to those beneath him to make his life easier. A boss that cares about his employee's goals and career path, and tries to assist that employee to succeed and use his or her talents. A boss that is forgiving, flexible, and a true friend. I'm afraid that many husbands in their role as "boss" take after the bosses that are just thinking about their own career path, and are looking for ways to make their own job easier. Bosses that "despitefully use" those beneath them, and feel like they have to be in control of all decisions. I think we need to realize that there are many women who have never had a loving, respectful man, or "boss" in their lives, but have been manipulated and used by a man for his own selfish interests. Of course there are good and bad examples of both genders, but I do see why many women have rebelled. It's not right, just like slaves/servants rebelling against their masters isn't right, but just because rebelling isn't right, doesn't make slavery right either.

I think what we see happening in society, with women gaining equal rights, being able to vote, own property, work, divorce their husbands, is part of the lifting of Eve's curse, just as the curse placed upon the African race has been was lifted. You have the extreme side of the equation there resentful blacks and women are fighting for affirmative action types of things and looking to punish to have justice. This isn't right of course, but the restricting of freedoms for these groups was not right. What a blessing America is! It has allowed the "slaves to rise up against their masters," in order that the people may be prepared for an era of true equality.

This is a fantastic post - thank you. This also helps articulate my somewhat funny / somewhat serious question: What if women are the presiding deities? Everything else about our world is upside down, right? The worst / least mankind has to offer are often the greatest (rich, powerful, etc.) and the best / greatest of mankind are the servants of all. What if women being veiled represents the fact that their true roles have been hidden all along?

I'm not saying I believe Heavenly Mother presides over Heavenly Father, but what's more difficult? Learning to submit to a perfect God while your wife submits to you, or learning to submit to an imperfect husband? I'm not saying either is easy, but you brought up a fantastic point about a good couple submitting to each other, wanting to love and please each other through charity - the perfect love of Christ. I know my wife feels this way about me - I am constantly asking her opinion or asking her how she's doing and showing her that her feelings, thoughts, and happiness are highest among our family members - as it should be imho. However, this brings up another good question - at what point does that break the Lord's model, or does it?

Don't forget, leading and being the one who owns the decision is also hard - especially being imperfect at it. Your boss analogy is great because I've been transitioning to management over the last several years. Many men (it's a male dominated profession) shy away from management as they don't like the added stress / pressure or owning decisions that go wrong. I think the biggest challenge is managing imperfect people. (Think on how that applies to the family.) I didn't realize what a model employee I was to manage until I started managing others.

Who are the bosses I respect the most? The ones that are powerful leaders - who are bold and confident and who make command decisions. Those who are open to feedback and will readily admit when they are wrong and adjust accordingly. These are the best leaders and are the qualities I strive to espouse (see what I did there?) I submit that most women - even non-LDS - ultimately want and need a husband like this but the adversary is working overtime to justify fighting against our husbands leadership rather than working together to accomplish strong leadership.

You sound like a great husband!

I know there are lots of women who are fighting against their husband's leadership, because they want some control and say, and feel like they have to fight for it. That's not right, and I think the message should be that they should each counsel together correctly, with the husband presiding, which ultimately means they should both talk it out and come to unity on the subject, and the husband makes sure that happens. And you're right, that puts more responsibility on the one presiding to help everyone reach the right decision. But I don't see women presiding in the hereafter. I don't know what it will look like honestly, but I think the ideal would be a true partnership, where you each discuss an issue respectfully until unity can be reached.

Thank you! I know my wife would agree with you, though I certainly would just give myself an "A" for effort. She and I agree though that effort is paramount because as long as you keep striving, forgiving, trying, etc. then you can always elevate your marriage and yourselves to a higher level. My wife struggles because her mother left her a wanting example when it comes to this topic, and my father also didn't leave me a tremendous example either. So we are trying to figure it out together. Once one partner stops caring / trying ... yikes. You have to jumpstart that seized engine before the relationship can move forward.

[Rwp]

My husband and I had a poignant lesson from Heavenly Father at the latter end of last year that really made us see what a blessing these roles are for men and women. But it's kind of a long story.

Early last year we had our third baby. She was born healthy but our doctor screwed me over and left a 2 inch fourth degree laceration that no one caught for 5 days. It was the worst physical experience of my life. I ended up with sepsis and had to get emergency surgery. The bills were far what we had anticipated. It was all in the middle of my husband's last and hardest semester. Our children had to live with family for 2 weeks because I couldn't take care of anyone. It was SO hard on us all.

A lot of other really hard and traumatizing things happened shortly after that made this last year incredibly trying. I found myself frustrated with HF because we had decided (independent of counselling the Lord) that we would not to have another baby until my husband was done with school. Then we got a prompting that it was time. Like.... Now. So we were faithful and obedient. We got pregnant immediately.

It felt like HF had a plan and we needed to follow, and we did in faith and it just felt like everything fell apart. We griped and complained quite a lot about our situation and what we didn't like and we questioned HF a LOT.

But we also were receiving promptings. My husband had a prompting that we needed to show gratitude. So we tried... And failed a lot. But we still tried. The Lord took our effort and gave us another prompting we didn't expect.

We were prompted that I should get a job. I applied and got a job within a week.

It was a 5am shift and me and my husband were now going to be sharing almost equal responsibility caring for the kids, cleaning, cooking, and working.

It. Was. Miserable. But we learned some extremely valuable lessons that we hadn't really ever questioned or second guessed.

I always appreciated my husband's sacrifice in providing for our family, but I didn't realize how much he was going through. As I shared difficult experiences with co workers, my husband opened up about some trials he was consistently faced with at work and it really helped me appreciate more fully what he does every day.

He learned how truly frustrating it can be to give 100% of the care for people who really can't do very much for themselves. He expressed that he never felt I was sitting at home and relaxing while he worked hard, but he expressed that it was a much more difficult job that he had imagined.

Ultimately we learned for ourselves that you need to divide responsibility in marriages. Being stretched between too many things and pushing for "equality" on every ground is unreasonable.

Thankfully, once we learned these lessons, we felt an increase in gratitude and unity and knew that the Lord had our back in giving us trials and opportunities to learn. I worked for 6 weeks. We felt at that point the lesson was learned and we didn't need to inflict any more undue damage to our children for degenerating into 1/4 functioning parents at best.

Maybe my view is still narrow, but it really opened our eyes to the importance of the roles we take part in to fulfill our families needs.

[Trucker]

I totally agree with you that prior versions needed to be revamped, especially on one point in particular.

I for one am very happy that any and all references to Eve being smarter, wiser, and more forward thinking in using her agency, as compared to Adam, have been completely erased from the new endowment. That story was never true, and was created for the 1990 film to placate women who complained about there not being enough women scriptural role models. I am not making that up. I know it for a fact.

II most surely call it a move forward now that the temple endowment no longer "gives" permission for the male bashing that I have suffered through in the last five wards I have been in since 1990.

Yes I call this a move forward in the roles of husbands and wives.

And another one:
President Hinckley kept a file full of letters written by women who complained about their husbands, causing Pres Hinckley to publicly chastise every guy in the church. When the men came back wanting equal time, he refused to give it to them.
Well that kind of stuff should be over now. Since men and women are "equal before God", that situation can now be seen for what it is, unjust, as both parties, the husband as well as the wife, were not at least heard out with equal attention and sympathy "before God"..

Yes I call this progress in the name of equality between men and women in the church.

And when a divorced man goes in for a temple recommend, he has to be fully paying child support, etc, and he always bears the brunt of a court biased in favor of women. I would think one way to equal this out, is to have divorced women also questioned in temple interviews as to whether their demands in the divorce court were fair and just, and she has to prove this.

Yes, I call this progress in the name of equality of men and women in the church.

Women relate to the world through their right brain, men through the left. I would imagine these differences would now be treated in an equal light. Just a few weeks ago, on this forum a female poster went on about Christ like love and how men didn't seem to have it and needed to work on it. Without her realizing it, she was describing Christ like love as only the emotionally connecting to others through the right brain. Well, that shouldn't ever be argued anymore. Since this new temple presentation, we better start treating the left brain type or "love" as just as valid and Christ like as the right brain kind and not less than or needing to be fixed.

For eons, sisters have been told they don't have to get married unless they find the "right" one. And if they remain single for their entire lives, oh well, they will not be denied any blessings and somehow, somewhere their Mr Right will be granted them . However, for men, the word on the street and from the pulpit has always been, "if you aren't married before you turn 25, you aren't living your religion".
If men and women are on equal grounds before God, this stance has to go the way of the dodo. And heck yeah, I think doing so would be a big step forward.

All my husband had this question about the new endowment: " if men and women are equal before God, why do I have to stand up when Eve enters the scene?"

Wow, not sure how I missed this post, but bravo!

[Trucker]

My husband and I had a poignant lesson from Heavenly Father at the latter end of last year that really made us see what a blessing these roles are for men and women. But it's kind of a long story.

Early last year we had our third baby. She was born healthy but our doctor screwed me over and left a 2 inch fourth degree laceration that no one caught for 5 days. It was the worst physical experience of my life. I ended up with sepsis and had to get emergency surgery. The bills were far what we had anticipated. It was all in the middle of my husband's last and hardest semester. Our children had to live with family for 2 weeks because I couldn't take care of anyone. It was SO hard on us all.

A lot of other really hard and traumatizing things happened shortly after that made this last year incredibly trying. I found myself frustrated with HF because we had decided (independent of counselling the Lord) that we would not to have another baby until my husband was done with school. Then we got a prompting that it was time. Like.... Now. So we were faithful and obedient. We got pregnant immediately.

It felt like HF had a plan and we needed to follow, and we did in faith and it just felt like everything fell apart. We griped and complained quite a lot about our situation and what we didn't like and we questioned HF a LOT.

But we also were receiving promptings. My husband had a prompting that we needed to show gratitude. So we tried... And failed a lot. But we still tried. The Lord took our effort and gave us another prompting we didn't expect.

We were prompted that I should get a job. I applied and got a job within a week.

It was a 5am shift and me and my husband were now going to be sharing almost equal responsibility caring for the kids, cleaning, cooking, and working.

It. Was. Miserable. But we learned some extremely valuable lessons that we hadn't really ever questioned or second guessed.

I always appreciated my husband's sacrifice in providing for our family, but I didn't realize how much he was going through. As I shared difficult experiences with co workers, my husband opened up about some trials he was consistently faced with at work and it really helped me appreciate more fully what he does every day.

He learned how truly frustrating it can be to give 100% of the care for people who really can't do very much for themselves. He expressed that he never felt I was sitting at home and relaxing while he worked hard, but he expressed that it was a much more difficult job that he had imagined.

Ultimately we learned for ourselves that you need to divide responsibility in marriages. Being stretched between too many things and pushing for "equality" on every ground is unreasonable.

Thankfully, once we learned these lessons, we felt an increase in gratitude and unity and knew that the Lord had our back in giving us trials and opportunities to learn. I worked for 6 weeks. We felt at that point the lesson was learned and we didn't need to inflict any more undue damage to our children for degenerating into 1/4 functioning parents at best.

Maybe my view is still narrow, but it really opened our eyes to the importance of the roles we take part in to fulfill our families needs.

My wife worked full time when we were first married. It has helped her understand what it's like for me with my job.

[Trucker]

I think the message should be that they should each counsel together correctly, with the husband presiding, which ultimately means they should both talk it out and come to unity on the subject, and the husband makes sure that happens.

This is exactly how I see it. Thank you for putting it so succinctly. I don't think it's really accurate to say that the husband has the "final say." I think the husband needs to make sure there is unity and that it gets done. That's a whole lot of work in listening, understanding, facilitating, compromising, encouraging, teaching, and putting attention and effort into things that the family needs to be done. That's totally not dictating.

[LadyT]

My husband and I had a poignant lesson from Heavenly Father at the latter end of last year that really made us see what a blessing these roles are for men and women. But it's kind of a long story.

Early last year we had our third baby. She was born healthy but our doctor screwed me over and left a 2 inch fourth degree laceration that no one caught for 5 days. It was the worst physical experience of my life. I ended up with sepsis and had to get emergency surgery. The bills were far what we had anticipated. It was all in the middle of my husband's last and hardest semester. Our children had to live with family for 2 weeks because I couldn't take care of anyone. It was SO hard on us all.

A lot of other really hard and traumatizing things happened shortly after that made this last year incredibly trying. I found myself frustrated with HF because we had decided (independent of counselling the Lord) that we would not to have another baby until my husband was done with school. Then we got a prompting that it was time. Like.... Now. So we were faithful and obedient. We got pregnant immediately.

It felt like HF had a plan and we needed to follow, and we did in faith and it just felt like everything fell apart. We griped and complained quite a lot about our situation and what we didn't like and we questioned HF a LOT.

But we also were receiving promptings. My husband had a prompting that we needed to show gratitude. So we tried... And failed a lot. But we still tried. The Lord took our effort and gave us another prompting we didn't expect.

We were prompted that I should get a job. I applied and got a job within a week.

It was a 5am shift and me and my husband were now going to be sharing almost equal responsibility caring for the kids, cleaning, cooking, and working.

It. Was. Miserable. But we learned some extremely valuable lessons that we hadn't really ever questioned or second guessed.

I always appreciated my husband's sacrifice in providing for our family, but I didn't realize how much he was going through. As I shared difficult experiences with co workers, my husband opened up about some trials he was consistently faced with at work and it really helped me appreciate more fully what he does every day.

He learned how truly frustrating it can be to give 100% of the care for people who really can't do very much for themselves. He expressed that he never felt I was sitting at home and relaxing while he worked hard, but he expressed that it was a much more difficult job that he had imagined.

Ultimately we learned for ourselves that you need to divide responsibility in marriages. Being stretched between too many things and pushing for "equality" on every ground is unreasonable.

Thankfully, once we learned these lessons, we felt an increase in gratitude and unity and knew that the Lord had our back in giving us trials and opportunities to learn. I worked for 6 weeks. We felt at that point the lesson was learned and we didn't need to inflict any more undue damage to our children for degenerating into 1/4 functioning parents at best.

Maybe my view is still narrow, but it really opened our eyes to the importance of the roles we take part in to fulfill our families needs.

My wife worked full time when we were first married. It has helped her understand what it's like for me with my job.

I worked when we were first married. I worked until I was put on bedrest with our first baby. I know how hard my husband works for our family. I do sometimes envy that he gets grown up conversations. He took a bunch of time of last month. He said he didn't know how busy and boring being at home with the kids could be. Poor guy.

[Alaris]

I'm really struggling with my job today - as in my employment. Usually when I pray in the morning, I get a good sense how my day is going to be. I will get a feeling like, "good day today" or a "today is going to be rough - be ready."

Today was rough yet I got a "good day today" vibe this morning which is odd. Perhaps this is why:

I'm currently on contract as a manager to bring structure to the IT support team at a company. The CIO and my peer "managers" for lack of a better term are extremely dysfunctional, undermining, and passive aggressive. I could provide several examples, but trust me.

One of the highest priorities (lol - "highest") is to hire more bodies on my team as we're understaffed. Yet the hiring "process" makes this extremely difficult as I don't have final say. In fact, the committee to approve such seems to be extremely picky as though it somehow elevates themselves above what they're picky about if that makes sense. So, this would be one example of undermining as I have had several good candidates we've had to pass on as they didn't check all the boxes of the "rainbow unicorn."

IT Support historically got the short end of the stick - no benefit of the doubt when someone complains (in fact no inquiry at all.) Up until this point though, I've felt good about standing as a protector for my team to protect them from this nonsense and to do the best we can given the circumstances.

Today though, my team let me down in several ways. Telling me something was done that wasn't. Shoddy work, etc. As I'm heading home today, I'm pondering about my job thinking, "What's got me so upset?" Then I realized, it's not one of the above things, it's all of the above. Peers backbite & undermine, boss undermines and sets unrealistic expectations against parameters that ensure those expectations will never be met, and now the folks who gave me a reason to advocate for them have let me down. "Good day today." I now realize, this is what it means to be a good husband or a good father or a good Elder's Quorum leader or whatever Priesthood role. We lead imperfect people who are ungrateful and who take you for granted. We are lead by imperfect people. I too am imperfect. My boss's imperfection does not mean I don't perform my role to the best of my ability. My team's imperfections don't mean I stop trying to build them up and stop advocating for the. My serpentine peers ... well they give me good experience for the welfare of my soul. These things certainly diminish my motivation, but ultimately it's up to me to do the very best job I can do.

You may be wondering if I'm posting in the wrong thread. I'm actually posting this as an analogy of being a good husband or good wife. Your husband or wife's imperfections do not justify your shirking of your own responsibilities.