The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

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LoveIsTruth
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The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

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The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

It is a very long article. Here is a short version of it for your enjoyment. If you want more details, read the rest of it, where I diligently answer all the objections that people had.

Short article:
Jesus was born with the same veil over his mind that Adam and Eve had in the garden. (Isaiah 7:14,15) But Jesus got his eyes opened to know good from evil by resisting temptations, instead of yielding to them. (D&C 20:22; Hebrews 4:15)

This shows that when the devil said “there was no other way,” in the garden, he lied.

Adam and Eve could have had their eyes opened to know good and evil in the garden of Eden without the fall, had they chosen to believe and obey the Father rather than the devil, and resisted the temptation.

For it is the exposure to temptation, and not fruits and trees, that open eyes to know good and evil.

And Adam chose the lesser part, by disobeying the Father and yielding to the temptation of Lucifer.

Again, if Adam had done as the Father had commanded him, and resisted the temptation, he could have had his eyes opened in the garden without transgression, and could have had posterity without the fall, precisely as the Father commanded him from the beginning, in which case the conditions on the earth would have been very similar to those which will prevail in the Millennium. Which in essence constitutes Plan A, from which Adam fell into Plan B.

For if there were no Plan A, there was no fall. (Otherwise what is it that they fell from?)

Without Plan A, the term "fall" is meaningless!

The very use of the term “fall” means there was a Plan A — a better plan, — from which Adam fell.

For if there was no better plan, there was no fall! (Making scriptures null and void).

But there was Plan A,— a better plan indeed, — to which we still can return by following Christ and the Father.

And that’s what Millennium is: a restoration of the earth back to the pre-fall “paradisiacal glory" (Articles of Faith 1:10), something that Adam and Eve could have had from the beginning, had they listened to the Father rather than the devil.

The Full article:

In the Millennium, we are told, the world will be transformed because the people will no longer believe the errors and the lies they are taught in our day, and thus the truth will transform them. So let's contribute to that process!

Summary:
Contrary to what the devil told them, there was another way to open Adam's and Eve's eyes in the garden of Eden without any transgression required, and therefore to have children without the fall, which way was to simply resist the temptation, because as demonstrated by Jesus, resisting temptation opens eyes to know good and evil just as well as yielding to it, except resisting it has no negative consequences, and is accompanied with blessings instead of cursings.

This is why it was called the tree of "knowledge of good and evil," because whether they resisted or yielded to the temptation to partake of it, their eyes would have been opened, for it was the exposure to the temptation, and not the tree, that opened their eyes, and they chose the lesser part.

Details:
There is a common misconception among the church members (sadly including some of our well-meaning apostles) about Adam and Eve’s fall, how it was wise of them to partake of the forbidden fruit, which always bothered me.

But let’s look at the facts, seeing that this story is so central in the Gospel to understanding the Atonement, and even central to the Temple endowment; so obviously, the Lord wants us to study it. Therefore let’s do just that.

We have two statements in the scriptures that seem to justify the notion:

  • And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
    And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
    But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
    Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
    (2 Nephi 2:22-25)
Also

  • And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
    (Moses 5:11)
So this seems to strongly imply that Adam and Eve could not have children unless they partook of the forbidden fruit. However appearances are deceiving, especially if taken out of context with other key scriptures.

First, notice, neither Lehi nor Eve say that Adam and Eve COULD not have children, but that they WOULD not. Key difference. Why?
"Could not" means physical impossibility. "Would not" means choice.

Let's look closer:
Moses 5
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

Notice: if in this verse every "should" was changed to "could", it would be a lie. Why? Because, again, "never could" means physical impossibility, and "never should" means choice. Adam and Eve made the wrong choice in the garden, and are trying to hide the fact. Because they indeed could have had posterity, and could have known good and evil without any fall. All they had to do was resist the temptation, and trust God more than the devil. Then this resistance would have opened their eyes without any transgression, and given them posterity without the fall, precisely as the Father commanded them. For it is the exposure to opposites that opens eyes to know good and evil, and not fruits and trees. And yielding to temptation was never necessary to open their eyes. Resisting the temptation would have done the same thing, minus the curse, fall, and death. If it were not so, God would be a liar, because He would have given self-contradictory commandments, which would have caused Him to cease to be God.
Those who say Adam did the right thing in the garden, unwittingly make God a liar. Which is very bad logic indeed.

As for Lehi's statement, Let me explain a bit more:
Lehi said two things here, and both are true:
a) if they were not tempted, they would never known good and evil, nor had posterity. Absolutely true. Because exposure to opposites to good and evil/temptation is prerequisite to opening of eyes to know good and evil, which is prerequisite to the ability to procreate (at least for males).

But though they had to be exposed to temptation, they did NOT have to yield to it, but should have kept the commandment of the Father, which resistance would have opened their eyes without transgression, and gave them posterity without the fall, exactly as the Father commanded them, which was God's Plan A for them, which, unfortunately they did not choose. Therefore Lehi said

b) that they WOULD NOT have children, nor know good from evil without a fall. Why? Because they were deceived and CHOSE wrong. Therefore they fell from God's Plan A into Plan B, and their posterity with them.

I again point out, that Lehi did not say they COULD NOT multiply nor know good from evil without transgression, for that would make God a self-contradictory God and a liar. But Lehi said instead that they WOULD NOT.

Key difference. And Lehi was correct.

Next, let’s remember that Adam and Eve were given two commandments that in the eyes of some seem to contradict each other, but in reality those commandments were perfectly harmonious, non-self-contradictory, and perfectly doable:

  • 1) They were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth, and
    2) They were commanded NOT to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Now it is fairly obvious that Adam could not keep the first commandment until his eyes were sufficiently opened, without which knowledge he was like a little child, and little children that do not yet appreciate the differences between the genders, in principle, are incapable of procreation.

So the big question was how to open their eyes.

Of course one way to open them was to eat of the forbidden fruit, which was contrary to God’s commandments and had horrendous negative consequences, i.e. eventual death of the entire human race.

Now many believe the devil’s lie that it was the only possible way to open their eyes. “There is no other way” was the big lie spoken in the garden.

There was another way, however.

Why do I say this? Because God does not, and cannot give self-contradictory commandments, i.e. commandments that are simultaneously in force and yet contradict one-another, or he would cease to be God. If the only possible way to keep the first commandment was to transgress the second, seeing they were both simultaneously in force, God would be a liar because he would be contradicting himself, because he said he gives no commandments to anyone unless he prepares a way for them to accomplish whatsoever he commands them.

  • "the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." (1 Nephi 3:7)
Transgressing commandments is NOT accomplishing them.

Which means there HAD TO BE a way to open their eyes without partaking of the fruit. What was that way? Resisting the temptation, of course! That's how you open your eyes without a transgression. Jesus demonstrated it, and the Father commanded it.

These are irrefutable facts of the scriptures!


Again, from this it follows, that there had to be a way for Adam and Eve to keep the first commandment, and have their eyes opened, WITHOUT transgressing the second commandment, (or God would cease to be God). This is much more plausible and reasonable than to imagine that "God didn't really want Adam and Eve to keep the second commandment" or any other nonsense like that, which would make God a self-contradictory god, which is no God at all!

So the statement that if Adam did not partake of the forbidden fruit he could never had children is a false one.

The truth is that if Adam had rejected the temptation enough times his eyes would have begun to be opened enough to have children, which act would have opened them completely without any transgression (which was God's Plan A for Adam and Eve from the beginning); for action was required, either one way or the other, in relation to the commandments of God, to open their eyes, and Adam chose the lesser way, (Plan B) the way of self-contradiction, which is always a mistake, though in his case not a sin, for he was incapable of committing sin until after his eyes were opened which was after partaking of the fruit.

So Lucifer's statement, "There is no other way," was the big lie. (No surprise there, coming from "the father of all lies,"—a lie for which many still fall, especially in the church.)

No, really... Think of this: "Is there no other way?" was the key question of the entire Eden experience. It would be the height of folly to think that the devil would respond truthfully to the most important question that could have been asked in the garden.

He lied! Dah!

Is anyone surprised? I am not.

But for some inexplicable reason many members of the church believe that the father of all lies told the truth on this the most important question. Of course he didn't, or he wouldn't be the devil!

"There is no other way," was the main lie spoken by the devil in the garden, and the main lie he speaks today.

Eve fell because she believed a lie that "there was no other way" to know good and evil.
Adam fell because he believed a lie that "there was no other way" for them to be together or for man to be.

In fact, Adam fell because he was loyal to the woman more than to God. There is a lesson here as well, of what not to do.

I say it again, (and it is “politically incorrect” in this church, but nevertheless absolutely true): Adam fell because he loved his wife more than he loved God. Of course, It is not as bad as people loving “Satan more than God” (Moses 5:13), but in final analysis: anything that you love above God will turn to be a cursing to you, and not a blessing.

This especially applies to those in the church who love dead prophets and their errors more than God. There are some like that, who pitch Brigham Young and the lunacy attributed to him against the scriptures.

"Be Fruitful and Multiply ... and Have Joy Therein"

Also notice:
In the endowment we learn that God said to Adam and Eve:
“Be fruitful and multiply, ... Dress this garden, and take good care of it, be happy and have joy therein.”

Now, think for a moment: If none of this was possible without the fall (neither multiplying, nor having joy, for Lehi said "having no joy") this would make God a cruel liar, which would cause him cease to be God!

No, really, think of this: This is what many in this church erroneously teach that God in essence said: "Here is this great and wonderful garden, be fruitful and multiply, be happy and have joy therein. But, by the way, if you do multiply, you will be kicked out of here, O, and you can have no joy unless you are kicked out!"

Do you see how utterly twisted, and self-contradictory, and outright wicked this would be?

Yet people ascribe this wickedness and self-contradiction to God himself! They make God a liar, and basically a sociopath, to fit their own self-contradictory notions!

The truth is that Adam and Eve absolutely were capable of both having their eyes opened, multiplying, and having joy IN the garden, (as God said "therein"), without any transgression or fall, precisely as God commanded them. All they had to do was to obey the Father and resist Satan's temptation sufficiently; for resisting temptation opens eyes just as well as yielding to it, but has no negative consequences, as demonstrated by Jesus, and is accompanied with blessings instead of cursings. For it is the exposure to temptation (that is to opposition) that opens eyes, and not fruits and trees. And Adam chose the lesser path of self-contradiction and disobedience, being deceived and seduced by Satan, which was the reason for his fall.

As I said, Adam fell because he loved his wife more than he loved God. Which resulted in a curse and death for himself, for the world, and for his posterity. A definite example of what not to do!

And yes, unless Adam was exposed to opposition (temptation) in the garden, he could not have joy nor posterity, (Lehi was right), but Adam did not have to yield to the temptation.

He should have resisted it, as the Father commanded him, which would have opened his eyes without transgression, and gave him posterity without the fall, exactly as the Father commanded him from the beginning. (This was God's Plan A for Adam, from which plan Adam fell, into Plan B).

So God did not contradict himself, but was perfectly consistent and fair. But it is those who say that Adam could not keep both of the commandments of God, that contradict themselves. Not God!

God cannot, in principle, give contradictory commandments, or he would cease to be God.


I repeat again (in slightly different words):
God said: “Be fruitful and multiply, ... Dress this garden, and take good care of it, be happy and have joy therein.” (Endowment)
If none of this was possible without the fall God would be a liar, for he commanded them to multiply and have joy IN the garden.

The quote was "therein."

So unless you throw away the endowment as well, you cannot say that Adam could not multiply and replenish the earth without the fall, for that directly contradicts the commandments God has given, and if true, would make God a cruel liar, (for how could Adam multiply and have joy in the garden, if supposedly the only way to achieve this, according to the devil, was to transgress and to be kicked out of the garden?) which would cause God to cease to be God.

So unless you make God a liar, you cannot suppose that Adam could not have his eyes opened and have posterity without a fall. The truth is he WOULD NOT, as in being deceived, and choosing Satan's advice instead of God's.


But to continue with the original article:
And even if Eve were cast out for transgression, and Adam left alone in the garden of Eden, God who said "It is not good for man to be alone," would not have let Adam remain alone for no fault of his own because he kept the commandments, and therefore another woman would have been given him, just like God had done the first time, and for the same reasons; for he who took a rib out of Adam could give him another rib, seeing that he made the whole body anyway. And knowing God, He would have also prepared a way for Eve to eventually come back to God and to Adam, as well. So lack of women was never an issue for Adam.

Therefore it was never Adam's duty to partake of the forbidden fruit. Neither was it the only possible way "that man may be," a false rationalization given by the devil.

In fact, Adam saying “I will partake that men may be” was repeating a Satan’s lie, because men could be, and much better too, without the fall, precisely as God commanded Adam in the first place.

So, as the commandment to multiply and replenish requires two, not just Adam, therefore Adam could not be held responsible for it if Eve disqualified herself through transgression and Adam did not transgress. Therefore, as I said, God would have given Adam another wife, instead of Eve. And if Adam's first motivation was to obey the Father, he should have refused Eve's offer and obeyed the Father rather than her and the devil. Adam made a mistake. You have to admit it or make God a liar.

Also, Eve saying “It is better for us to pass through sorrow that we may know good from evil” was repeating a shadow of Satan’s lie. Because, the Father and Christ being the perfect example of the fact, that you do not have to fall to pass through sorrow, and a lot of it.

Again, Adam and Eve could have had their eyes opened, and gotten all the sorrow necessary for exaltation by resisting temptations, and not by yielding to them, as Christ perfectly demonstrated. Yes, by sufficiently resisting the temptation of the devil to partake of the forbidden fruit, they would have had their eyes opened without transgression, just like Jesus' eyes were opened by resisting temptations instead of yielding to them.

So on both counts Satan lied to them, and they fell for it, just like a lot of people in this church still sadly do.

But it will change. Truth is no respecter of persons, and it always comes on top in the end. You'll see.

So as you remember, in the temple, we learn that the devil sent Eve on a mission, to seduce Adam to partake of the forbidden fruit, and she was repeating his lies, because she herself was deceived (“the serpent beguiled me”), and this is because, at that time, she believed the devil more than God, which was the reason for her fall.

If Adam was true and faithful in the garden, this is how their exchange should have went:

  • Adam: “Eve, ... Do you not remember, that the Father commanded us not to partake of the fruit of that tree?”

    Eve: “Do you intend to obey all of the Father’s commandments?”

    Adam: “Yes, all of them! With or without you!

    Eve: “Do you not remember, the Father has commanded us to multiply and replenish the earth? I have partaken of this fruit, and by so doing shall be cast out. And you will be left alone man in the garden of Eden!”

    Adam: “Not so sister. God will give me another wife, besides thee, who will obey his commandments in this. And I must obey the Father more than thee, or the devil (serpent). You are wrong Eve! (Dead wrong!) I will follow the Father.”
That was what Adam should have said. And because he listened to his wife and the devil more than to the Father, he fell, and the whole earth and the future human race with him.

The lesson here again is: If you listen to your spouse more than to God, you will fall, and your children with you, and you will bring a curse upon yourself and your posterity.

In fact, it would have been better even for Eve, if Adam did not partake of the fruit, because by allowing her to convince him to disobey God, Adam allowed her to compound her own error with his, unwittingly condemning the entire future population of the earth to a fallen world instead of a paradise.

Neither did Eve, for the very same reason, make a good choice in the garden for her own children and descendants, contrary to what many erroneously assert. For "the Lord God ... showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents." (2 Nephi 2:21) And that, by definition, was not a good choice by the parents for their posterity!

The good choice would have been to resist the temptation of the devil, which resistance would have opened their eyes without any transgression required, (just like Jesus had his eyes opened by resisting temptations instead of yielding to them), and thus enable them to have children in the garden of Eden without a fall, giving their posterity a paradise right from the start, similar to that which will exist again for untold billions of children in the Millennium, exactly as the Father had commanded them.

That, was the good choice,-- to resists the temptation instead of yielding to it,-- and they dropped the ball. To deny this truth is foolishness, contradicts the scriptures, and worse yet, it makes God a liar, which is a very bad logic indeed.

God did not mince words about the situation:

  • "And we will allow Lucifer, our common enemy to tempt them and to try them, that they may learn from their own experience to discern good from evil. If they yield to the temptation, we will provide a savior for them..." (Endowment)

    Also:
    "Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation." ( D&C 29:40 )
Notice God calls it for what it is: temptation. And the idea that "yielding to a temptation is the right thing to do," is the doctrine of the devil.

And it sadly persists in this church with regards to Adam and Eve.

Yielding to temptation is never "the right thing to do" nor ever the "good choice," Adam and Eve included. It is shocking that such error should be defended by many teachers in the church. This error comes of not understanding that there was a better way: Plan A (resisting temptation and having eyes opened by such resistance without any transgression required), and that Plan B was a bad choice expressly forbidden by the Father.

And, yes, it was an honest mistake on Eve's part (to partake of the fruit), to be sure, but a mistake nevertheless. Without understanding this, one cannot understand the true nature of the fall, nor the real need for an atonement. Because there WAS another way. A much better way indeed!

Again, why do I say this?

Again, Because God gives no commandments to anyone without preparing a way for them to accomplish what he has commanded them. And for God to give a commandment that is impossible to fulfill without transgressing another is to be a liar, and to engage in self-contradiction, which would cause Him to cease to be God.

Therefore the necessary conclusion is that they were perfectly capable of keeping both commandments at the same time, had they chosen to obey God by resisting temptation, which would have opened their eyes without transgression.

How do you think Jesus' eyes were opened to know good and evil? He was born a little baby, with the same veil over his mind that Adam and Eve had. (Isaiah 7:14,15) He got his eyes opened by resisting temptations, not by yielding to them. (D&C 20:22; Hebrews 4:15) That was God's plan for Adam and Eve, and for their posterity, had they accepted it.

In fact, had they resisted the temptation, and therefore done as God commanded them, the conditions on the earth would have been similar to those which will prevail during the Millennium, when the "earth will be renewed and [restored to] its paradisiacal glory" (Articles of Faith 1:10):

  • And Satan shall be bound, that he shall have no place in the hearts of the children of men. ...
    For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall ... abide the day.
    And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation. (D&C 45:55-58)
This and more, was what God was offering Adam and Eve from the beginning, had they accepted it, because they indeed, positively, could have had children in the garden of Eden precisely as God commanded them.

And as I said, Eve and Lehi never said that Adam COULD not have children without transgression, for that is false and would make God a liar, but that Adam WOULD not. This is key difference.

So Eve's and Lehi's statements seem to strongly imply that which is wrong, but actually do not.

The actual correct meaning of Eve's statement in (Moses 5:11), for example, though obfuscated, is:

  • "We would not have posterity, nor know good and evil without a transgression, because we were deceived ('The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.' (Moses 4:19)). But now that we know better, and understand the error we have made, we rejoice in our merciful redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."
And the actual correct meaning of Lehi's statement is:

  • "Adam fell because he would not that men might be any other way, and men are that they might have joy."
Now, the only question is why the appearance of a false implication is allowed in a book of scripture?

The answer is an easy one. There are plenty of false statements in scriptures spoken by criminals, murderers and by Satan himself. They are given in context so the reader may learn the truth by contrast. This is no different. Lehi's and Eve's statements are allowed in the scriptures to prove the reader. And currently many get it wrong, including some well-meaning apostles, who make honest mistakes just like Adam and Eve, and are deceived by the same lie that Adam fell for. But, gratefully, God is merciful to honest mistakes, and He will turn them for everyone's good as soon as his people learn and accept the truth.


Now why allow the fall in the first place?

If Adam and Eve were not allowed to fall, they could not have joy. (And please note: "allowed to fall" is not the same as "had to fall.") Why? Because where there is no liberty there are no opposites to choose from and to comprehend; and where there are no opposites there is no knowledge, for knowledge is none other than comprehension of opposites; and where there is no knowledge there is no consent; and where there is no consent there is no voluntary and perfect union, (for the only perfect union is a voluntary one), and where there is no perfect union there is no perfect joy, which joy is the only purpose of life.

Because Adam and Eve would not comprehend without transgression, they fell. God's intelligence is sufficiently high to comprehend without transgression, therefore he is God and does not fall.


Is there evidence in the scriptures that there was Plan A and Plan B for Adam?


Yes!

To begin with, the very term "fall" necessitates for something to fall from. And what they fell from was Plan A. And they fell into Plan B.

Plan B is well known: In the temple we learn that God said: "If they yield to the temptation, we will provide a Savior for them." That was Plan B.

And as for Plan A, Alma speaks of it thus: "Wherefore, he gave commandments unto men, they having first transgressed the first commandments" (Alma 12:31).

So
Plan A = "first commandments."

What first commandments? To multiply and replenish the earth, and NOT to partake of the forbidden fruit, of course. It is all on record.

As I pointed out, following these two commandments (which, of course, meant resisting the temptation of the devil) would have opened Adam's eyes without transgression, and gave him posterity without the fall. In which case the conditions on the earth would have been very similar, right off the bat, to those which will prevail in the Millennium for untold billions of children who will be born then, who will never know a telestial, fallen, lone and dreary world!

God truly created a beautiful plan!

And Plan B, according to Alma, is:
"And now, my brethren, seeing we know these things, and they are true, let us repent, and harden not our hearts, that we provoke not the Lord our God to pull down his wrath upon us in these his second commandments which he has given unto us; but let us enter into the rest of God, which is prepared according to his word." ( Alma 12:37 )

So
Plan B = "second commandments"

It's all here.


"Thou mayest choose for thyself" was not a license to transgress

There is also a lot that has been made of the Lord's statement: "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Moses 3:16-17)

Some say because the Lord said: "nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee" somehow it is a license to transgress the commandment. But is it?

Let's look at other examples where the Lord has done similar thing:

  • "And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; " (Moses 7:33 )
Yet

  • "thus saith the scripture: Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve." (Alma 30:8)
So despite of the commandment, men are told that they are free to choose.

And again:

  • "Therefore, cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselves—to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life." (2 Nephi. 10:23)
And

  • Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. (2 Nephi 2:27)
So, in at least three separate places the Lord tells people they are free to choose for themselves, but they are not free to choose the consequences of their choices.

Exactly the same thing happened in the Garden of Eden, for God said: "but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."(Moses 3:17)

In fact, it is the case with ALL the commandments that God gave, for he said that men are free: "to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life." How much more free can you get?

And to those who say "he did not really forbid it," I say Really? How "but, remember that I forbid it" (Moses 3:17) is not clear enough? And if that wasn't enough, he added: "for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

How much more clear can it possibly get?

"Don't do it, for I forbid it, and if you do it you will die." Anyone?

"But of the fruit of the tree which thou beholdest in the midst of the garden, God hath said—Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." (Moses 4:9)


"They behaved exactly how God expected them to. It was all part of the plan; therefore they did the right thing" fallacy.

"Expected to" is not the same as "commanded to."

There is a general and simple rule to discern good from evil which all need to learn and apply in all their analysis. It quickly shows where one begins to go off the rails. This rule is:

  • Good = that which is according to God's commandments.
    Evil = that which is contrary to the commandments.
Simple as that.

God was not surprised by the choices of Adam and Eve, as He was not surprised by the choice that Lucifer made in rebelling and starting a war in heaven. It does not however make them right choices. Of those who make bad choices and do not admit them God said:

  • "Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever." (Mosiah 3:26)
And that too is a "part of the plan." So being "part of the plan" does not mean you are doing the right thing, because the plan accounts for both good and evil, and rewards everyone according to their works. Therefore hell itself is also "a part of the plan," but it doesn't mean it is recommended! In fact, it is forbidden, though you are definitely free to choose it against the Father's commandments. Just like Adam was free to choose to eat of the forbidden fruit against the Father's commandment. Both these choices are unwise, according to the scripture above, that's why they were put in the same sentence together, because one illustrates the other, because they are both wrong choices!

Moreover, in the temple we learn that God said: "And we will allow Lucifer, our common enemy, to tempt them and to try them."

If Adam was “supposed” to partake of the forbidden fruit, and “did the right thing” in doing so, then there was no temptation. There was nothing to tempt him with because, supposedly, partaking of the fruit was “the right thing to do.” Such conclusion insults logic and reason, and makes meaningless what God have said. Therefore to believe such nonsense is a self-contradiction, and thus is clearly false.

"We chose a specific plan in preexistence and agreed to go with it, therefore Adam did the right thing" fallacy.

Let's look at an example: Abraham agreed to be born to Terah, who tried to murder him and to sacrifice him to idols. Yes, the plan accounted for this eventuality, but it does not mean however, that Terah made no mistake and "did everything right."

So is the fall of Adam. The plan made provisions for it, but it did not make a transgression "the right thing to do," or God would cease to be God and be a liar, for he would be contradicting himself.


"No Error" Fallacy

Now a word to those who think that it was not a real error that Adam and Eve partook of the fruit.

There are many in the church, who would not even admit that Adam and Eve made a mistake, thus negating the wisdom and justice of God, and actually the need for the atonement.

Think of this: If Adam and Eve made no mistake but were "wise" in disobeying the Lord, what need is there to redeem them? They did everything "right" after all, according to plan!

If Adam and Eve did not make a real error in the garden of Eden, then there was no real Fall, and no need for an atonement!

Yet many in the church try to teach that it was not a real error. "No mistake was made by them, they did everything right."

We have to admit the fact that Adam and Eve made a real (not imaginary) mistake in partaking of the fruit, if we are to learn anything from the Fall, or to understand the justice of God, and the actual need for an atonement.

Because if they did everything right, they do not need an atonement. And if their error is imaginary, then the Fall is imaginary, and the need for an atonement is also imaginary.

But I say that the error was real and serious (though not a sin, for they could not sin until after their eyes were opened), and therefore the Fall was real and serious, and the need for the atonement was very real and serious.

It's like a little child who steps in front of a speeding truck. It is not a sin, because the child does not fully understand, but it is a very serious error on the part of the child, that results in the child's death. The same was the fall of Adam and Eve,-- a serious error, though not a sin.

Until this is understood, the nature of the fall, and the real need for the atonement cannot be properly understood.

Furthermore, consider what the Lord Himself says about this:
52 And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you.
53 And our father Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden.
Moses 6:52, 53
How could Adam "repent" of a transgression, unless it was a mistake?

And why would the Lord "forgive" Adam's transgression in the Garden of Eden, if Adam did everything right?

If Adam did the right thing, there is nothing to forgive! Yet the Lord clearly disagrees with such a view, therefore He says: "I have forgiven thee," which clearly means Adam made a mistake and was in need of forgiveness!

Unless you throw away the entirety of the scriptures and make God a liar, you cannot rightly assert that Adam did not make a mistake, a serious and deadly mistake at that, a mistake serious enough to require the life of the Son of God!

Adam and Eve made a serious mistake in the Garden by disobeying the Father, or there was no fall!

And yes, there was a better way: Adam should have resisted the temptation, which would have opened his eyes without any transgression (Just like Jesus got His eyes opened), and would have given him posterity without a fall.

God was right. Adam and Eve were wrong.

The plan God offered Adam and Eve was much more magnificent than we are currently taught!

Why?

Because there was a better way! They did not have to fall. It was their serious error. They could have had a Millennium right from the start!

He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


"No Pain No Game" misunderstanding

Some say: "Adam and Eve had to fall or they would never had experienced pain and opposition, and thus could never be exalted."

You do not have to transgress God's commandments to experience pain and opposition. Christ being the perfect example of that.

So lets take them in order:
First there was perfect opposition present in the garden:

"And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter." ( 2 Nephi 2:15 )

And to add to this opposition God allowed Lucifer, his enemy to tempt them and to try them.

So Adam and Eve were exposed to full opposites in the garden.

The problem was not the absence of opposites, but that they made the wrong choice, which was the reason for their fall, curse, and death.

Now about pain and suffering:
There were infinite opportunities for pain without the fall.

You do not have to have your own transgressions to obtain pain, you get your pain because of the transgressions of others. That was the better path God offered Adam and Eve, and that is precisely what Jesus did.

In the words of Jesus: "It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!"(Luke 17:1)

Moreover, in the Millennium the Lord says: "And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation." (D&C 45:58) Which means that they, in the Millennium, will experience their full share of pain, but not because of their own sins, and yes, they will be exalted.

Consider this: in the Millennium, in a Terrestrial state of the world, there will be a war of the intensity and malice not known before. There will be billions of the sons of perdition joining Satan after having a perfect knowledge of Christ and the Father who will have taught the people for almost a thousand years! The war will be so intense that it will end with the earth passing away by fire:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. ...
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
( Rev. 20:7 )

77 And when the time cometh that evil fruit shall again come into my vineyard, then will I cause the good and the bad to be gathered; and the good will I preserve unto myself, and the bad will I cast away into its own place. And then cometh the season and the end; and my vineyard will I cause to be burned with fire.
( Jacob 5:77 )
All this in a Terrestrial state! Which proves that Terrestrial (paradisaical) state has plenty of room for opposition from Satan, rebellion, war, sons of perdition, pain, fire and the end of the earth itself!

So the righteous in the Millennium will have their full measure of opposition and pain, yet "their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation." (D&C 45:58)

Also God the Father himself, though perfect in every way and sinless, no one has, or ever will have suffered more intensely than Him, and this is not because of any transgression of his own. And though His pain and suffering was the most intense of all, he was never miserable, because pain comes to all and is the necessary part of joy, but misery, that is pain un-offset by inner joy, comes only to the wicked.

Therefore the wicked are miserable even in a palace, and the righteous can find peace even on a cross.

Thus it is never necessary to fall to experience pain, in fact they were commanded not to fall, in which case they would have had a much better world, better health, immortality, and the eternal peace and blessings promised to the righteous.

This is what God had in mind for Adam and Eve, if they had taken it, however they dropped the ball. An honest mistake, to be sure, but a mistake nevertheless.

And unless a mistake is admitted, it can never be corrected or learned from.

"Without going through a fallen world, God's children could not be exalted, therefore Adam did the right thing" fallacy.

First of all note the words of Jesus:
  • 1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
    2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
    ( Luke 17:1-2)
Did you get this? He says
a) Yes offenses, mistakes, and sins are bound to happen.
But is it ok? No!
b) woe unto him through whom they come!

On a larger scale, the same principle is in force:
Yes, some worlds are bound to fall, because they are free to do so. But WOE to those worlds which do fall!

Now consider that the Garden of Eden was a Terrestrial State, the same state that will prevail in the Millennium, when the "earth will be renewed and [restored to] its paradisiacal glory" (Articles of Faith 1:10).

In the Terrestrial state billions upon billions of children will be born, grow, live out their lives, experience opposition, -- all without ever knowing a fallen, Tellestial, lone and dreary world, and be changed in a twinkling of an eye to a resurrected, Celestial state.

So much so, that the Lord said of a Terrestrial state: there will be "no sorrow because there is no death." (D&C 101:29)

This proves that it is possible for a child to be born in a Terrestrial world/sate, get all the intense opposition and challenges they need, and be exalted in the Celestial kingdom of God without EVER going through a fallen, Telestial, lone a dreary world.

This means that before the fall, in a Terrestrial state, Adam and Eve could have shared in a similar blessing.

"Jesus had to be born into a Telestial, fallen world to redeem the Universe, therefore Adam had to fall" fallacy.

Those who are born in a Terrestrial, Millennial state on this world or any other, also need a Savior, because they are still imperfect and make mistakes. So how would they get a Savior?

Jesus answered this question. He said:
"It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!"(Luke 17:1)

So, to rephrase it in terms of worlds: "It is impossible but that some worlds will fall (because they are free): but woe to that world that falls!"

So if Adam and Eve did not fall, they would have had a Millennium conditions right off the bat, and Jesus would have been born in a different fallen world. That was part of His descending below all things whereby He saves/resurrects all the creations of God.

The bottom line, it was never Adam and Eve's duty to fall. In fact it was their duty not to fall. The Savior would have been born anyways.


"It is the same pattern done in other worlds, ... It is how God gained his knowledge" lie.

You recall that these were the arguments that Satan gave to Eve in the garden trying to persuade her to disobey God. And of course it was another lie.

There is no evidence that all worlds suffered the same fall the earth did. In fact, reason asserts otherwise.

And as for God gaining his knowledge: Let's remember that Jesus, who was born as a little child, and who initially had the same veil over his mind that Adam and Eve had in the garden, gained his knowledge and had his eyes opened to know good from evil by resisting temptations, not by yielding to them! So in Jesus, we have a direct and incontrovertible proof that Satan has lied about how God had his eyes opened to know good and evil.

That's why I said that resisting temptation opens eyes just as well as yielding to it, except resisting it has no negative consequences, and is accompanied with blessings instead of cursings.

This is what God required of Adam and Eve, and had they listened to him by resisting the temptation of the devil, they would have began to have their eyes opened without any transgression, and thus could have had children in the garden of Eden without the fall, inheriting a paradise for themselves and their posterity, instead of a fallen world, precisely as God commanded them.

"Many Church Leaders have said that the fall was necessary, therefore it was necessary" fallacy.

If the fall was "necessary," then the atonement was unnecessary!

Really, think about it:
If the fall was necessary, then Adam and Eve did their duty.
And if they did their duty that God required of them, then they did everything right.
And if they did everything right, what need is there to redeem them?
Redeem them from what?
From doing everything right?
Doing that which is right does not require redemption, but that which is wrong requires redemption.

Thus, the assertion that the fall was "necessary" is riddled with self-contradiction, denying the need for the atonement of the Savior, and thus is false by definition.

All the apostles who supposed that the fall was "necessary" fell for the same lie for which Adam himself has fallen.

I take the words of God over opinions of the prophets any day, especially if those opinions are in direct contradiction to the revealed word of God.
Joseph Smith himself taught that prophets, including himself are capable of error in their personal opinions. And I believe Joseph.


"No room on the earth for all the immortals" fallacy

Some say, "If Adam and Eve had not fallen, and therefore all people and animals on earth were immortal, it would have gotten really crowded and therefore Adam had to fall."

God seems to disagree with that conclusion:

  • "And the end shall come, and the heaven and the earth shall be consumed and pass away, and there shall be a new heaven and a new earth.
    For all old things shall pass away, and all things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fulness thereof, both men and beasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea;
    And not one hair, neither mote, shall be lost, for it is the workmanship of mine hand."
    (D&C 29:23-25)
Besides, have you seen the amount of real estate in the Universe?

It is ASTRONOMICAL. (Pun intended). The estimates are that there are more stars and solar systems in the known Universe than grains of sand on all the beaches on the earth!

So the room to place his creations is an emphatic non-issue for an All-wise Creator.

I am certain, among many, many "millions of earths like this" one (Moses 7:30), there were many where a fall did not occur; they did not go through a Telestial state, and people live to be over hundreds of thousands of years old, and they look like our middle aged people here, and some of them have visited this earth.


Simultaneous vs. Sequential commandments

Some say: "If God does not give contradictory commandments, then how do we explain what he did with Abraham?"

Simple. He gave one commandment; then he gave a different commandment that superseded the first. Commandment to sacrifice Isaac was superseded by the commandment not to sacrifice Isaac.

These were sequential, and were not in force at the same time, but one AFTER the other, with the latter explicitly canceling the former. And you cannot transgress a commandment that has been revoked.

This however was not the case in the garden of Eden. The first commandment did not supersede or cancel the second. BOTH were in full force SIMULTANEOUSLY, at the same time.

If it were not so, then the punishment attached to the breaking of the second commandment would not have been applied to Adam and Eve, but it was. Why? Because BOTH commandments were in force at the same time.

God, in principle, cannot give contradictory commandments that are in force simultaneously, or he would cease to be God, because he would be contradicting himself, because he said he gives no commandments unto anyone unless they can accomplish what he commands them.

The same applies to


"Higher Law" misunderstanding

The key here is that in the case of "higher law" one commandment supersedes and displaces an earlier commandment,-- non simultaneous commandments. Again, it is impossible to transgress a commandment that is not in force.

This was not the case in the garden. If it were not so, they would not have been punished for transgressing it and there would have been no fall, because they "would have done everything right."

"It [partaking of the forbidden fruit] was a great sacrifice necessary to provide mortal bodies for their spirit children" fallacy.
It was a great error. Not a divinely appointed sacrifice.

"Will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed? And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law" ( D&C 132:10-11) And the law was: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, ... remember that I forbid it." (Moses 3:17) That was the law.

Secondly, the Father commanded them to provide immortal (not fallen) bodies for his children, instead of mortal and fallen ones. Why? Because he commanded them to multiply and replenish the earth and NOT to fall by partaking the fruit. Adam and Eve failed on both counts, which was the reason of their fall.

"If they wanted children they had to enter a lower realm" fallacy.

God has said and commanded them the exact opposite. He commanded them to have children and NOT enter the lower realm. They got there AGAINST his direction. And yes, it was their choice, and their error.

Fortunately, because of the atonement we can still get back to the perfect world God gave to Adam and Eve to begin with, from which they fell because they would not listen to him (as little children often do).

Enoch, Melchizedek and many others had gotten back to Plan A. They have overcome the Telestial world and gained a Terrestrial state where there is "no sorrow because there is no death." (D&C 101:29)

In fact, in the Millennium billions of children will share in a similar blessing, because they will be born and live out their lives in a Terrestrial state, which was God's Plan A for Adam and Eve from the beginning.

  • "And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation." (D&C 45:58)

    "And there shall be no sorrow because there is no death." (D&C 101:29)
No telestial state for those billions. No lone and dreary world. This and more is what God had in mind for Adam and Eve and their posterity if they chose to listen to him from the beginning.

So I do not blame them for their honest mistake, but now that we know better, let's get back to that better world through the means the Father has prepared, by following the example of his perfect Son, Jesus Christ! Shall we?

  • We believe ... that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    (Articles of Faith 1:10)

God turns honest mistakes for everyone's good through Christ.

Though the fall created a harsher world with more intense opposition and challenges, it also created fertile ground for accelerated progress and development of those of God's children who chose to be born into it.

Whereas in the worlds that experienced no fall it may take people hundreds of thousands of years to obtain the necessary experience to be exalted, it takes on average under 100 years in this fallen world, provided correct choices are made by the individual.

Everything is just in the economy of God. Those who suffer more intensely in righteousness are exalted faster.

This should not be construed to mean that Adam and Eve therefore made a good choice, just like children born to wicked and abusive parents receiving accelerated experience and compensatory blessings from God, does not mean that the parents did the right thing.

Good example of this would again be Abraham. He was born to a wicked father named Terah who wanted to murder him and to offer him as sacrifice to idols. But Abraham trusted in the Lord and was protected and blessed by God to offset the troubles created by his earthly father, which of course does not mean that Terah did the right thing. He will answer for his mistakes and sins to the Lord according to the plan.

So, through the grace and atonement of Heavenly Father, offered to us through his Only Begotten Son, all of the troubles created by the honest mistake of Adam and Eve, and by mistakes and sins of anyone else can be offset and compensated for the righteous, giving them all the blessings they are willing to enjoy.

Thus honest mistakes are forgiven to all by a gracious God, after they learn from the natural consequences of their mistakes, as well as sins are forgiven to them who sincerely repent and transform their lives.

In this way, God turns the fallen world for good to those who follow Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ with all their hearts.



"Why is this even important now? Isn't it water under the bridge?"

The point I am making is important, because the error commonly taught in the church, asserting that there was no other way for Adam to fulfill God's commandments except by transgressing them, makes God a liar. Which makes Him no God at all.

That is an important point, because it is impossible to believe in a God that contradicts Himself.

This is why the point I am making is so key, because a contrary point of view perverts the very nature of God, and is an insult to reason, logic, and to the words of God Himself.

This is why it is so important to correct this unfortunate error.

(No wonder God made sure we would see the fall story over and over again in the temple, until we finally get it.)


To summarize:

The principle lie of the devil, as in the garden of Eden, and so today, is that "There is no other way." Of course it was false then, and it is false now.

Eyes are opened to knowing good and evil just as much by resisting temptation as by yielding to it, except that one way contains self-contradiction and the other does not!

Lucifer was allowed to tempt Adam and Eve only after they would not keep God's first commandment to multiply and replenish the earth in a timely manner.

It is true that if the devil was not allowed to tempt Adam and Eve their eyes would never had been opened and they would never have had children. For opening of eyes to good and evil is a prerequisite to the ability to have children. However, it was never their duty to yield to the temptation, for contrary to the lie the devil had told them, it was not the only way to open their eyes.

Their eyes would have been opened by resisting temptation, just as much as by yielding to it, because it is the exposure to temptation that opens eyes, and not fruits and trees. One way was according to God's commandment and the other contrary to it, and they chose the lesser path, the path of self-contradiction which was the reason of their fall and a curse placed upon the entire human family (which curse, of course, is lifted in Christ). (Yes, there was an actual curse of Adam. See Moroni 8:8).

Now, please do not misunderstand, I do not blame Adam and Eve for their honest mistake. In the end everyone will answer for their own mistakes, and not for another. I simply point it out, so we all may learn from it. For is it not the point of studying the fall, so we may understand what went wrong, and therefore the real need for the atonement?

So what is the take away from the lesson about Adam and Eve?

  • a) God originally created a perfect world, free of death, and full of infinite possibilities for progress without any transgression required, and gave it to Adam and Eve and their posterity.

    b) Contrary to what the devil told them, there was another way to open Adam's and Eve's eyes in the garden of Eden without any transgression, and therefore to have children without the fall, which way was to simply resist the temptation, because as demonstrated by Jesus, resisting temptation opens eyes to know good and evil just as well as yielding to it, except resisting it has no negative consequences, and is accompanied with blessings instead of cursings. This was God's Plan A for Adam and Eve and their posterity, which would have resulted in a world in a Paradisaical Terrestrial state, right off the bat, similar to that which will prevail on this earth during the Millennium.

    And this is why it was called the tree of "knowledge of good and evil," because whether they resisted or yielded to the temptation to partake of it, their eyes would have been opened, for it was the exposure to the temptation, and not the tree, that opened their eyes, and they chose the lesser part (Plan B).

    c) Adam and Eve were deceived by Satan in the garden, and though they were yet incapable of committing sin, made a real and serious mistake by yielding to the temptation of the devil and disobeying God, which resulted in a curse, the fall of the world, and death. This was their fall from Plan A into Plan B. (For if there were no Plan A, there was no fall, either. For what is it that they fell from ? Plan A, of course! Without Plan A, the term "fall" is meaningless!)

    d) If you see a devil in the garden talking to people, don't let your wife remain alone and unprotected.

    e) One should be loyal to God over spouse, or disastrous consequences for both of them and for their posterity will follow.

    f) After a natural punishment (allowing one to suffer the natural consequences of one's own actions so they may learn), God, being a perfect and loving Father, forgives honest mistakes and turns them for everyone's good, like he did for Adam and Eve and their posterity through Christ,

    g) by whom they may overcome the fallen world, thus receiving an accelerated experience, restore it back to its paradisaical glory, and regain immortality and eternal life that God offered Adam and Eve from the very beginning.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on July 10th, 2018, 11:18 am, edited 209 times in total.

JohnnyL
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Posts: 9830

Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by JohnnyL »

And even if Eve were cast out for transgression, and Adam left alone in the garden of Eden, another woman would have been given him.
Not so--another woman would not have been given to him.

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Melissa
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Posts: 1697

Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Melissa »

Eve was taken from Adam. They were one in Adam and God took the female out of him. Adam did not look upon eve as men look upon women, he said she is flesh of my flesh ie...she is mine and is me. Adam and Eve were a pair and they knew they were expected to be together.

I think you have an interesting idea about not needing to fall to learn as that does relate to us learning about sin without having to sin.

I might add that when we look at Adam and Eve as 1 person representing 2 aspects, we see Eve as the physical and Adam as the spirit. Eve partook of the apple, Adam only did because of Eve. Once Eve partook, Adam had to because he saw Eve as being of himself - the same. He couldn't be separated from her, what she did he did and vise versa. They were truly one as the scriptures say married couples are to be. It's quite a beautiful representation of how man and woman are to see each other and interact with each other. I think that seeing the symbolism and big picture, it's a wonderful love story for a couple who were completely connected and loyal.

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David13
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by David13 »

I also don't agree with "there is no other way".
I think we indeed can learn and know about sin without partaking of it.
So I have always (well, that means this year, as I did not hear it before) thought that "there is no other way" was indeed a lie. But I was considering the source, too.
dc

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

JohnnyL wrote:
And even if Eve were cast out for transgression, and Adam left alone in the garden of Eden, another woman would have been given him.
Not so--another woman would not have been given to him.
Prove it.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Melissa wrote:I think you have an interesting idea about not needing to fall to learn as that does relate to us learning about sin without having to sin.
Yes. That is the main lesson for me from this story. I agree with you.
Melissa wrote:Once Eve partook, Adam had to because he saw Eve as being of himself - the same.
That erases Adam's responsibility and agency, and is not according to the plan of God. Yes he fell because he was loyal to the woman more than to God.

There is a lesson in this as well, of what not to do.

And he who took a rib from him could give him another rib (since he made the whole body anyway.)

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Melissa
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Melissa »

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Melissa wrote:I think you have an interesting idea about not needing to fall to learn as that does relate to us learning about sin without having to sin.
Yes. That is the main lesson for me from this story. I agree with you.
Melissa wrote:Once Eve partook, Adam had to because he saw Eve as being of himself - the same.
That erases Adam's responsibility and agency, and is not according to the plan of God. Yes he fell because he was loyal to the woman more than to God.

There is a lesson in this as well, of what not to do.

And he who took a rib from him could give him another rib (since he made the whole body anyway.)
So if a spouse sins, we should divorce and ask God for another and he will give as we desire? Adam also knew that he was married to Eve and God doesn't think lightly of marriage.

God tells us to not do plenty of things, we still do. How is this honestly different than Adam and Eve? We all have to learn to choose right, they were given no examples, they were the example for all human kind. Without them falling we would have never learned either by our own actions or by actions of others to not sin. It had to happen. I say give up the idea that we all could have been living in the garden, peaceful and happy. We haven't earned that privilege yet. We must travel through this valley of tears and be tested and tried. How else could we stand with the exalted?

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Melissa wrote:So if a spouse sins, we should divorce and ask God for another and he will give as we desire?
Of course not (in general). Adam refusing to transgress God's commandment is not asking for divorce. That would be left up to God, and knowing Him, he would've provided a way for Eve to repent and come back to Him and to Adam.
Melissa wrote:God tells us to not do plenty of things, we still do. How is this honestly different than Adam and Eve?
I never said it was different. In fact it is very much the same.
Melissa wrote:We all have to learn to choose right, they were given no examples, they were the example for all human kind.
That's why I said that Adam and Eve were INCAPABLE of committing sin until AFTER their eyes were opened. So their partaking of the forbidden fruit was a transgression, a mistake, but not a sin, because they could not sin until after their eyes were opened.
Melissa wrote:Without them falling we would have never learned either by our own actions or by actions of others to not sin. It had to happen.
It had to happen only because they made the mistake. They did not however "had to" make the mistake. In fact, God commanded them not to, because their was a better way, as I just shown you.
Melissa wrote:I say give up the idea that we all could have been living in the garden, peaceful and happy.
It was not my idea only but God's. Hence the commandments he gave. And it was a good idea indeed. Too bad human family didn't take Him up on that at the time, but as you pointed out they still have a chance.
Melissa wrote:We haven't earned that privilege yet. We must travel through this valley of tears and be tested and tried. How else could we stand with the exalted?
You do not have to transgress God's commandments to "travel through this valley of tears and be tested and tried." That's the whole point.

In the Millennium the Lord says: "And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation." (D&C 45:58)

So they in the Millennium, will experience their share of pain, but not because of their own sins, and yes they will be exalted.
Also God the Father himself, though perfect and sinless, no one has suffered more intensely than Him, and this not because of any transgression of his own.

This is what God had in mind for Adam and Eve, if they had taken it, however they dropped the ball. An honest mistake, to be sure, but a mistake nevertheless.

And unless a mistake is admitted, it can never be corrected or learned from.

That is the point of this article.

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Melissa
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Melissa »

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Melissa wrote:So if a spouse sins, we should divorce and ask God for another and he will give as we desire?
Of course not (in general). Adam refusing to transgress God's commandment is not asking for divorce. That would be left up to God, and knowing Him, he would've provided a way for Eve to repent and come back to Him and to Adam.
Melissa wrote:God tells us to not do plenty of things, we still do. How is this honestly different than Adam and Eve?
I never said it was different. In fact it is very much the same.
Melissa wrote:We all have to learn to choose right, they were given no examples, they were the example for all human kind.
That's why I said that Adam and Eve were INCAPABLE of committing sin until AFTER their eyes were opened. So their partaking of the forbidden fruit was a transgression, a mistake, but not a sin, because they could not sin until after their eyes were opened.
Melissa wrote:Without them falling we would have never learned either by our own actions or by actions of others to not sin. It had to happen.
It had to happen only because they made the mistake. They did not however "had to" make the mistake. In fact, God commanded them not to, because their was a better way, as I just shown you.
Melissa wrote:I say give up the idea that we all could have been living in the garden, peaceful and happy.
It was not my idea only but God's. Hence the commandments he gave. And it was a good idea indeed. Too bad human family didn't take Him up on that at the time, but as you pointed out they still have a chance.
Melissa wrote:We haven't earned that privilege yet. We must travel through this valley of tears and be tested and tried. How else could we stand with the exalted?
You do not have to transgress God's commandments to "travel through this valley of tears and be tested and tried." That's the whole point.

In the Millennium the Lord says: "And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation." (D&C 45:58)

So they in the Millennium, will experience their share of pain, but not because of their own sins, and yes they will be exalted.
Also God the Father himself, though perfect and sinless, no one has suffered more intensely than Him, and this not because of any transgression of his own.

This is what God had in mind for Adam and Eve, if they had taken it, however they dropped the ball. An honest mistake, to be sure, but a mistake nevertheless.

And unless a mistake is admitted, it can never be corrected or learned from.

That is the point of this article.
You have interesting points.
2 questions.

What about the devil? He was there in the garden and thus existed, and the temple points to his role.

And what about the idea that God was once an imperfect man?

paulrobots
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by paulrobots »

The thought that we could all be living in the Garden of Eden right now, if it hadn't been for Adam and Eve is ludicrous. They were indeed giving conflicting commandments. They behaved exactly how God expected them to. It was all part of the plan.

This theory of yours sounds a lot like original sin, where people blame all their woes on Adam and Eve.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Melissa wrote:You have interesting points.
Thank you!
Melissa wrote:2 questions.

What about the devil? He was there in the garden and thus existed, and the temple points to his role.
Yes he had a role. An evil role he chose to play, a role of self-contradiction and misery, that is the natural consequence of his choice. An unfortunate choice to be sure, but it was his to make, so he too may learn from his own experience.
Melissa wrote:And what about the idea that God was once an imperfect man?
True enough. Joseph Smith said it. And it is true. That is the beauty of it: we all have a destiny and ability to become like God.

Shouldn't be a surprise if you call God your Father! Right?

I mean, no one is shocked when a child of a lion becomes a lion, or a child of a shoemaker becomes a shoemaker.

Right?

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Melissa
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Melissa »

paulrobots wrote:The thought that we could all be living in the Garden of Eden right now, if it hadn't been for Adam and Eve is ludicrous. They were indeed giving conflicting commandments. They behaved exactly how God expected them to. It was all part of the plan.

This theory of yours sounds a lot like original sin, where people blame all their woes on Adam and Eve.
I have heard preachers preach from the pulpit their anger towards Adam. "The first thing I'm gonna do when I get to heaven is kick Adam in the shin".

The first time I heard this kind of stuff I didn't understand what they were referring to. Suprising to find out people are mad at Adam for causing their suffering and hardships.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

paulrobots wrote:The thought that we could all be living in the Garden of Eden right now, if it hadn't been for Adam and Eve is ludicrous.
It is a simple fact. If facts sound ludicrous to you, it is not the fault of the facts. ;)
paulrobots wrote:They were indeed giving conflicting commandments.
This, if it were true, would make God a liar. So it is not true.
paulrobots wrote:They behaved exactly how God expected them to. It was all part of the plan.
"Expected to" is not the same as "commanded to."

God was not surprised by the choices of Adam and Eve, as He was not surprised by the choice that Lucifer made. It does not however make them right choices. Of those who make bad choices and do not admit them God said:
  • "Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever." (Mosiah 3:26)
And that too is a part of the plan.
paulrobots wrote:This theory of yours sounds a lot like original sin, where people blame all their woes on Adam and Eve.
I explicitly said that Adam could not sin in partaking of the fruit, because his eyes were opened only after he partook, not before.

So you are mistaken. Neither do I blame Adam and Eve for their honest mistake. I simply point it out, so we all may learn from it. Isn't that the point of studying it?

Thanks.

JohnnyL
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by JohnnyL »

Prove that God would have given another wife to Adam. ;)

I'll post another theory I've read, similar to yours, if that's the way you like them. :)

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Melissa
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Melissa »

JohnnyL wrote:Prove that God would have given another wife to Adam. ;)

I'll post another theory I've read, similar to yours, if that's the way you like them. :)
Women are a dime a dozen, right?? Lol
Seems many think this way.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

JohnnyL wrote:Prove that God would have given another wife to Adam. ;)
Sure.

God said: "It is not good for man to be alone." And if Adam was left alone again, because of his keeping the commandment, and not for any fault of his own, God would have given him another wife, just like he did the first time.

Proof complete.

Thanks for asking.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Melissa wrote:Women are a dime a dozen, right?? Lol
Seems many think this way.
That is not true. Christ would have died for Eve just as much as he would have died for Adam.

God loves all equally, and "all are alike unto God." (2 Nephi 26:33)

JohnnyL
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by JohnnyL »

LoveIsTruth wrote:
JohnnyL wrote:Prove that God would have given another wife to Adam. ;)
Sure.

God said: "It is not good for man to be alone." And if Adam was left alone again, because of his keeping the commandment, and not for any fault of his own, God would have given him another wife, just like he did the first time.

Proof complete.

Thanks for asking.
Serious? =)) =)) =))

janderich
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by janderich »

LoveIsTruth wrote: Summary:
Resisting temptation opens eyes just as well as yielding to it, except resisting it has no negative consequences.
I agree with your statement here. Resisting temptation does open eyes. In fact, ultimate growth only happens when we do resist temptations just as the Savior did.
Details:
There is a lot that has been made in the church about Adam and Eve’s fall, how it was wise of them to do what they did, etc., which always bothered me.

But let’s look at the facts, seeing that this story is so central even to the Temple endowment, so obviously the Lord wants us to study it. So let’s do just that.

We have two statements in scripture that seem to justify the notion:
(2 Nephi 2:22-25)[/list] Also (Moses 5:11)[/list]

So this seems to strongly imply that Adam and Eve could not have children unless they partook of the forbidden fruit. However appearances are deceiving.

Notice, neither Lehi nor Eve say that Adam and Eve COULD not have children, but that they WOULD not. Key difference. Why?
Some have tried to make much out of "could" vs "would" as you have done, but after considering it many times I don't believe that there is any significant hidden meaning here.

What is significant is what Lehi said about life in the Garden of Eden. He said, "And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end." (2 Ne 2:22). In other words, all people would have remained in their same state. This leaves no room for children, their limited understanding, or their growth from childhood to adulthood. Only in a fallen realm cut off from the presence of God can children grow in such a manner.
Let’s remember that Adam and Eve were given two commandments that in the eyes of some seem to contradict each other.
  • 1) They were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth, and
    2) They were commanded NOT to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Now it is fairly obvious that Adam could not keep the first commandment until his eyes were sufficiently opened, without which knowledge he was like a little child, and little children that do not yet appreciate the differences between the genders, in principle, are incapable of procreation.
There was no issue with Adam or Eve appreciating the difference between genders. They certainly understood these principles. The problem was overcoming Satan and his manipulations. Until they had a knowledge of all his ways, and chose the good every time, then without God they were susceptible to the devil and would ultimately be overcome.

Much is also often made of contradictory commandments. God was simply stating the facts and letting them know their choices.
1. If they stayed in their current state they would not have children.
2. If they wanted children they had to enter a lower realm.
They were free to choose. God was not contradicting himself in the least.

One confusion I see in your post, is between the fall and sin. By partaking of the fruit Adam and Even would enter a lower state, but that did not mean they had to sin. For example Jesus entered this lower realm but did not sin. Likewise, if Adam and Eve were strong enough, they could have entered this state and not sinned. However, they still needed to grow, and consequently did sin.

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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

janderich wrote:I agree with your statement here. Resisting temptation does open eyes. In fact, ultimate growth only happens when we do resist temptations just as the Savior did.
I am glad you agree. It is the main point here.
janderich wrote:Some have tried to make much out of "could" vs "would" as you have done, but after considering it many times I don't believe that there is any significant hidden meaning here.
It's not that hidden, and it is significant. "Could not" means physically impossible. "Would not" means choice. Big difference. As I said, if Adam "could not" keep the commandments, then God would have been contradicting himself (1 Nephi 3:7), which is never the case.
janderich wrote:Much is also often made of contradictory commandments.
There were no contradictory commandments.
janderich wrote:God was simply stating the facts and letting them know their choices.
1. If they stayed in their current state they would not have children.
He never said that. In fact he said and commanded the exact opposite.
janderich wrote:2. If they wanted children they had to enter a lower realm.
He has said and commanded the exact opposite. He commanded them to have children and NOT enter the lower realm. They got there AGAINST his direction. And yes, it was their choice, and their error.
janderich wrote:One confusion I see in your post, is between the fall and sin. By partaking of the fruit Adam and Even would enter a lower state, but that did not mean they had to sin.
I never said they had to sin, nor did I say that they sinned in partaking of the fruit. In fact, I explicitly said that they did not, and more over, could not sin in that, because their eyes were not yet opened.
janderich wrote:However, they still needed to grow, and consequently did sin.
Sin is never required for growth. In fact, it is the very opposite of growth.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

David13 wrote:I also don't agree with "there is no other way".
I think we indeed can learn and know about sin without partaking of it.
So I have always (well, that means this year, as I did not hear it before) thought that "there is no other way" was indeed a lie. But I was considering the source, too.
dc
Good points. Thanks.

janderich
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by janderich »

LoveIsTruth wrote:
janderich wrote:Much is also often made of contradictory commandments.
There were no contradictory commandments.
janderich wrote:God was simply stating the facts and letting them know their choices.
1. If they stayed in their current state they would not have children.
He never said that. In fact he said and commanded the exact opposite.
janderich wrote:2. If they wanted children they had to enter a lower realm.
He has said and commanded the exact opposite. He commanded them to have children and NOT enter the lower realm. They got there AGAINST his direction. And yes, it was their choice, and their error.
Let's look at the pertinent scripture in Moses. The Lord says, "And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for theyself, for it it given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Moses 3:16-17). The first thing to note is the God tells Adam that he can choose for himself. God does not give commandments and then tell people they can contradict them if they want. For example he does not say, "Thou shalt not kill, but you can chose to do so if you want", or "Thou shalt not commit adultery, but go ahead and do it if you want", such statements would cause confusion. So, unlike any other commandment the Lord is giving Adam options and telling him the consequences. Joseph Fielding Smith explained it this way, "Mortality was created through the eating of the forbidden fruit if you want to call it forbidden, but I think the Lord has made it clear that it was not forbidden. He merely said to Adam, if you want to stay here [in the garden' this is the situation. If so, don't eat it." ("The sacrament and the Atonement", LDS Institute of Religions, Jan 14, 1961).
janderich wrote:One confusion I see in your post, is between the fall and sin. By partaking of the fruit Adam and Even would enter a lower state, but that did not mean they had to sin.
I never said they had to sin, nor did I say that they sinned in partaking of the fruit. In fact, I explicitly said that they did not, and more over, could not sin in that, because their eyes were not yet opened.
janderich wrote:However, they still needed to grow, and consequently did sin.
Sin is never required for growth. In fact, it is the very opposite of growth.
I did not say sin was growth. What I said was that Adam and Eve needed to grow. Or in other words, they were not yet strong enough to overcome all of Satan's deceptions. Therefore, when placed in this mortal realm they were going to sin. This does not mean they "had" to sin, simply that they were weak in some areas, and because they were weak they would not always choose correctly. Do you see the distinction?

Sin is the opposite of growth, but consequences can teach us, and they do. When we do not follow commandments we suffer. This suffering teaches us that pain attends us if we do not do what is right. Those who wish to avoid such pain will chose the right.

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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by JohnnyL »

And we know that pain is generally a much, much greater motivator than pleasure.

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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

JohnnyL wrote:And we know that pain is generally a much, much greater motivator than pleasure.
No one had, or ever will have more pain than God. Yet he never contradicted himself, nor transgressed any of the laws of Heaven. Neither had to Adam and Eve. But they were deceived by a lie that "there is no other way" that the devil told them, a lie for which many still fall, especially in this church.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

janderich wrote:Let's look at the pertinent scripture in Moses. The Lord says, "And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for theyself, for it it given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Moses 3:16-17). The first thing to note is the God tells Adam that he can choose for himself. God does not give commandments and then tell people they can contradict them if they want.
That is not true.
  • "And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; " (Moses 7:33 )
Yet
  • "thus saith the scripture: Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve." (Alma 30:8)
So despite of the commandment, men are told that they are free to choose.

And again:
  • "Therefore, cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselves—to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life." (2 Nephi. 10:23)
And
  • Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. (2 Nephi 2:27)
So, in at least three separate places the Lord tells people they are free to choose for themselves, but they are not free to choose the consequences of their choices.

Exactly the same thing happened in the Garden, for God said: "but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."(Moses 3:17)
janderich wrote:For example he does not say, "Thou shalt not kill, but you can chose to do so if you want", or "Thou shalt not commit adultery, but go ahead and do it if you want", such statements would cause confusion. So, unlike any other commandment the Lord is giving Adam options and telling him the consequences.
I just showed you that this is the case with all the commandments that God gave. He said men are free: "to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life." How much more free can you get?
janderich wrote:"but I think the Lord has made it clear that it was not forbidden."
Really? "but, remember that I forbid it" (Moses 3:17) is not clear enough? "for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." How much more clear can it possibly get?
janderich wrote:I did not say sin was growth. What I said was that Adam and Eve needed to grow. Or in other words, they were not yet strong enough to overcome all of Satan's deceptions. Therefore, when placed in this mortal realm they were going to sin. This does not mean they "had" to sin, simply that they were weak in some areas, and because they were weak they would not always choose correctly.
I would agree with that.
janderich wrote:Sin is the opposite of growth, but consequences can teach us, and they do. When we do not follow commandments we suffer. This suffering teaches us that pain attends us if we do not do what is right. Those who wish to avoid such pain will chose the right.
I would agree with that as well, except I will substitute "misery" for "pain," because pain comes to all and is the necessary part of joy, but misery, that is pain un-offset by inner joy, comes only to the wicked.

Thank you for your comments!

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