Book of Mormon Heartland Model

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marc
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Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by marc »

Bob, don't hate me, brother. I just kept putting off investigating this model for years as you probably remember when it was a gospel hobby of mine, which ended a couple years ago as I began to dive deeper into my personal studies. For decades, I believed that Meso America was where the BoM setting took place (and I also had my own hair brained ideas). After just one documentary presentation, I am persuaded otherwise. I don't really care to pursue this much further as my personal studies are vastly more important to me, but this was fun to watch and really quite the eye opener. It connected some dots and answered some questions, which I had for a long time. Of course, one day we will know for sure whereas today, it is all still educated guessing. If you make it through to the end, you just might be persuaded as I surely am. There are very strong evidences in this video. Enjoy.
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marc
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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by marc »

I used to think Rod Meldrum was a kook. I remember passing over his videos because of his wild claims. Not any more. The learned folks at BYU and all their scholarly work simply overlooked what was underneath their noses all along. Blows my mind.
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Joel
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Post by Joel »

Is Rod related to Jeff Meldrum?

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marc
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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by marc »

I think too much emphasis has been placed on Meso America because of the awe inspiring structures. That outward appearance of intelligence manifested in architectures of wonder draws us to believe that none other than the highly industrious Nephites could have built such things. Mounting evidence from Georgia to Tennessee to the Great Lakes seems to prove otherwise.

They were not savages. This one is different, but worth watching.
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marc
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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by marc »

=== wrote:Is Rod related to Jeff Meldrum?
I have no idea.

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mes5464
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Post by mes5464 »

I am definitely sold on the heartland model. There is simply too much there to ignore.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

mes5464 wrote:I am definitely sold on the heartland model. There is simply too much there to ignore.
I went to Rod's second presentation many years ago at Provo City Library, when he was just getting started. I have followed his research over the years, and have only one differencing view from him. After the crucifixion, and the continual slow destruction of the Nephite nation, they moved to Mesa Verde and the four corners areas. That the last destruction of the Nephites eventually happen in this areas. This fits with what Joseph Smith told Mosiah Hancock.

cayenne
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Post by cayenne »

This is something I have never really spent time looking into, could anyone list the strengths and weaknesses of both geographic models?

Lizzy60
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Post by Lizzy60 »

I watched several Rod Meldrum videos about 5 years ago. I believe his point of view has merit.
Thanks coachmarc, for providing these links. I don't have copies of the videos I saw. I look forward to viewing these.

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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by marc »

Holy cow! More gold. Wayne May has really done his homework. The church takes no official stance, LOL. Joseph Smith knew all along! Now I know why Moroni lamented that we adorned our churches. "Hey! We didn't build those pyramids! That's not what our armor and weapons looked like! Take those paintings down!" :p
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farfromhome
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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by farfromhome »

I'm definitely leaning towards the Heartland model, based on so much evidence. I'm aware of Bro Jones' research on horse in America pre-Columbus -- all found in North America, none in Mesoamerica!

I've been to Kahokia (near St Louis) and some of the mounds in Ohio. What surprises me is the obstinancy (word?) of the BYU scholars re: Mesoamerica. I'm open-minded, but not empty-headed, lol.

larsenb
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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by larsenb »

I'm thinking, coachmarc, that if you gave Ric Hauck's exhaustive, logical, spatial analysis of the geography of the Book of Mormon (taken from anything in the BoM dealing with locations, directions, days of travel from point A to point B,relative locations of two or more labelled locations, etc.) you may have to reconsider once again the likelihood of the Heartland, vs. the Mesoamerican models being correct.

His analysis is found in Deciphering the Geography of the BoM. And ask yourself how Meldrum deals with the same issues, if he even does.

Then we have the exhaustive analyses of editorials in the Times and Seasons dealing with the primary location of Zarahemla, etc., being in Mesoamerica, during the time that Joseph Smith was the editor. I think the evidence is overwhelming that Joseph wrote the editorials .

These are just two points that throw cold-water on the Heartland model. Catalogs of the many other weaknesses of the model have been amply documented.

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marc
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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by marc »

larsenb, you make a valid point. However, what I have always looked for and could never find until this weekend with these presentations by Wayne May is commentary, or rather quotes and/or letters/journal entries from Joseph Smith. This puts this baby to bed for me. I am aware that quotes are attributed to him regarding places in Meso America, but they aren't as compelling.

There is so much circumstantial evidence with both models, but the Heartland Model is pulling fast and far ahead with direct evidence. I would be surprised if Thomas S. Monson declared by revelation that Meso America or any other location, including the Heartland model was correct. Because of Joseph Smith, the location of at least Zarahemla, Manti and the City Desolation are now established with the waters of Mormon extrapolated beautifully and flowing today. What a gorgeous setting.

What I do find odd in both models is the narrow neck of land both run relatively east to west (the Niagara strip of land was called by the native Indians, or rather Niagara literally translated is neck). But the land North is above the Great Lakes and the Land South is, well everything south of them. In any case, Joseph being the editor doesn't necessarily mean he was always the author of the articles or even present when articles were written. When the articles were written concerning Zarahemla by Taylor and Woodruff, Joseph was in hiding and not present and therefore did not sign his name to those articles. If so, then he has contradicted himself in the letters and citations elsewhere in the above presentations. And that puts us back to square one.

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marc
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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by marc »

More good stuff. Wayne May once again, doing his homework, this time with the people of Mulek. More emphasis on Zarahemla.
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marc
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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by marc »

cayenne wrote:This is something I have never really spent time looking into, could anyone list the strengths and weaknesses of both geographic models?
These short videos should answer your questions. This kid has done some pretty thorough research, which addresses Joseph Smith's own accounts and also what has been attributed to him in the Times & Seasons articles concerning the ruins in Central America. I have developed a respect for the FIRM Foundation.

The series will play one after the other in this window:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 478xUZQfzQ
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JohnnyL
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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by JohnnyL »

FIRM vs. FAIR... (Where's the popcorn?)

I believe both models are off, and have problems.

Check FAIR for problems with Meldrum (skip the name calling, lame parts, if you can), and then check https://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com ... -by-grego/ and https://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com ... son-and-o/ for problems with some of the FAIR problems.

There is much more on many other sites.

I prefer the New York model. :p

I think both models (Sorenson, Meldrum) trump the Malaysia thing.

Remember these important verses, too:
1 Nephi 19:10 …the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself…according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a SIGN GIVEN OF HIS DEATH unto THOSE WHO SHOULD INHABIT the ISLES OF THE SEA, MORE ESPECIALLY GIVEN UNTO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.

1 Nephi 19:11 For thus spake the prophet: The Lord God surely shall VISIT ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AT THAT DAY, some with his voice, because of their righteousness, unto their great joy and salvation, and others with the thunderings and the lightnings of his power, by tempest, by fire, and by smoke, and vapor of darkness, and by the opening of the earth, and by mountains which shall be carried up.

1 Nephi 19:12 And all these things must surely come, saith the prophet Zenos. And the rocks of the earth must rend; and BECAUSE OF THE GROANINGS OF THE EARTH, MANY OF THE KINGS OF THE ISLES OF THE SEA shall be wrought upon by the Spirit of God, to exclaim: The GOD OF NATURE SUFFERS.

1 Nephi 19:16 Yea, then will he remember the ISLES OF THE SEA; yea, and all the people who are of the house of Israel, will I gather in, saith the Lord, according to the words of the prophet Zenos, from the four quarters of the earth.

1 Nephi 21:8 Thus saith the Lord: In an acceptable time have I heard thee, O ISLES OF THE SEA, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee; and I will preserve thee, and give thee my servant for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

1 Nephi 22:3 Wherefore, the things of which I have read are things pertaining to things both temporal and spiritual; for it appears that the house of Israel, sooner or later, will be scattered upon all the face of the earth, and also among all nations.

1 Nephi 22:4 And behold, there are MANY WHO ARE ALREADY LOST FROM THE KNOWLEDGE OF THOSE WHO ARE AT JERUSALEM. Yea, the MORE PART OF ALL THE TRIBES HAVE BEEN LED AWAY; and they are SCATTERED TO AND FRO upon the ISLES OF THE SEA; and whither they are NONE OF US KNOWETH, save that we know that THEY HAVE BEEN LED AWAY.

1 Nephi 22:5 And since they have been led away, these things have been prophesied concerning them, and also concerning ALL THOSE WHO SHALL HEREAFTER BE SCATTERED AND BE CONFOUNDED, because of the Holy One of Israel; for against him will they harden their hearts; wherefore, they shall be scattered among all nations and shall be hated of all men.

2 Nephi 10:8 And it shall come to pass that they shall be gathered in from their long dispersion, from the ISLES OF THE SEA, and from the four parts of the earth; and the nations of the Gentiles shall be great in the eyes of me, saith God, in carrying them forth to the lands of their inheritance.

2 Nephi 10:20 And now, my beloved brethren, seeing that our merciful God has given us so great knowledge concerning these things, let us remember him, and lay aside our sins, and not hang down our heads, for we are not cast off; nevertheless, we have been driven out of the land of our inheritance; but we have been led to a better land, for the Lord has made the sea our path, and WE ARE UPON AN ISLE OF THE SEA.

2 Nephi 10:21 But great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are UPON THE ISLES OF THE SEA; wherefore as it says ISLES, THERE MUST NEEDS BE MORE THAN THIS, AND THEY ARE INHABITED ALSO BY OUR BRETHEREN.

2 Nephi 10:22 For behold, the Lord God HAS LED AWAY FROM TIME TO TIME FROM THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, ACCORDING TO HIS WILL AND PLEASURE. And now behold, the Lord remembereth all them who have been broken off, wherefore he remembereth us also.

2 Nephi 29:7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are UPON THE ISLES OF THE SEA; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

-=-=-=

The above scriptures by Nephi and Jacob (especially 1 Nephi 19:12, 1 Nephi 22:4, 2 Nephi 10:21-22) make it *absolutely clear* that the house of Israel had already been scattered on the isles of the sea BEFORE the time of the Nephites—though it’s not clear what peoples they were nor where they were.

It’s also absolutely clear that there would be many kings on the isles at the time of the Lord’s death, who likely would not have the full knowledge of the gospel anymore (which would also likely point to not having scripture).

This was all 500+ years before Hagoth had even set sail!

Also, Jacob says (2 Nephi 10:20) that they (the Nephites) were themselves were “upon an isle of the sea” (North America? Central America? South America?)

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marc
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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by marc »

I know. Lots of scriptures, etc. But what cinches it for me and I would have to take time to review the videos again for all the quotes from Joseph Smith declaring where specific cities and locations were. He declared where Zarahemla is and Desolation and Manti, though I am still investigating their sources (verifiable?). He wrote a letter to Emma from the bank of the Mississippi River about his experiences on Nephite land. He and company had traveled on foot from Kirtland, Ohio to the Mississippi River when he wrote this. From the recently published Joseph Smith Papers:

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... e-1834&p=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
...After we left the eastern part of the State of Ohio we could get provision on an average as follows; flour by the hundred $1.50, bacon from 4½ to 6 dollar per Hundred butter from 6 to 8 cents pr pound, honey from 3 to 4 shilling the gallon, new milk from 3 4 to 6 ct per gallon. The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest men and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionaly the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity...Signed, Joseph Smith, Jr
Are such things really proof? Well, they're proof that some people lived and died there. But this is the man we all esteem to be a prophet, seer and revelator, in whose eyes, these remains were indeed proof of what he already knew by revelation. It would not surprise me if Joseph saw in vision a scene in the day of the life of the people belonging to those remains. Anyway, this is just one source where we have in Joseph's own words where the Nephites lived. Notice he didn't write Lamanites. He wrote Nephites. In the various BoM models, there is circumstantial evidence, direct evidence and then there's proof. This is as close to proof as we get. Anyway, there are more citations where Moroni and Joseph Smith declare these things happened on this continent and this country. The US is the only land that has remained a land of liberty since the days of Lehi. But that's another post for another day.

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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by TannerG »

Rod told me that the maker of the movie The Testaments is a converted believer of the heartland model and regrets making the film in meso american style.

I definitely believe the heartland model.

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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by Tribunal »

Does the Church have an archaeological department? Does BYU? And if not why not? Think of how much this would boost the missionary effort for the Church? There is so much to be explored both in Central and South America, and even in North America. I remember reading that it was the Smithsonian Institute that hindered the archaeological exploration of the New England-area. Why hide the truth?

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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by gtoda »

The church has spent significant time and resource (through arms length organizations) in the pursuit of archaeological evidence to back up the claims of the Book of Mormon. The results were less than gratifying. Men have spent their whole careers searching for something conclusive but have, in the end, been disappointed. That is not to say there is a complete dearth of evidence. It's just not conclusive. In the end, we are still required to accept or reject the Book of Mormon on faith. I think that may be exactly what God intended.

Tribunal
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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

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gtoda wrote:The church has spent significant time and resource (through arms length organizations) in the pursuit of archaeological evidence to back up the claims of the Book of Mormon. The results were less than gratifying. Men have spent their whole careers searching for something conclusive but have, in the end, been disappointed. That is not to say there is a complete dearth of evidence. It's just not conclusive. In the end, we are still required to accept or reject the Book of Mormon on faith. I think that may be exactly what God intended.
I believe the problem is many in the Church search for evidence to support the Church's conclusion about the Lehites (Nephites and Lamanites), and the Mulekites, and the Jaredites, and don't let the evidence point to the truth. Rather than searching for individual pieces to the puzzle we should be looking at the big picture instead.

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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by JohnnyL »

Tribunal wrote:I believe the problem is many in the Church search for evidence to support the Church's conclusion about the Lehites (Nephites and Lamanites), and the Mulekites, and the Jaredites, and don't let the evidence point to the truth. Rather than searching for individual pieces to the puzzle we should be looking at the big picture instead.
Which is what those referenced scriptures help us do. ;)

Everything sounds good from the salesman... until the other side brings up pertinent ouchies in the explanations.

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marc
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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by marc »

Well, I only have one question. Referring to my previous post, if Lehi landed a little south of the Isthmus of Darien, what were Nephites doing way up in Ohio, Illinois, etc where Joseph Smith was trekking with the Zion's Camp?

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Post by rewcox »

What does the octagon shape mean?

JohnnyL
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Re: Book of Mormon Heartland Model

Post by JohnnyL »

coachmarc wrote:Well, I only have one question. Referring to my previous post, if Lehi landed a little south of the Isthmus of Darien, what were Nephites doing way up in Ohio, Illinois, etc where Joseph Smith was trekking with the Zion's Camp?
And if it was heartland, what was Moroni doing stopping to dedicate a temple site in Manti on his way to New York with the plates?

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