Rethinking Thinking

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
Post Reply
User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11275
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Rethinking Thinking

Post by Thinker »

"As he thinketh in his heart, so is he." -Proverbs 23:7
The heart of repentance is correcting thinking, which then corrects feelings/intent & behavior.

I've always been interested in psychology, "the study of the soul", & believe it to be inseparably connected to spirituality.
When I was very depressed, I went to see a councilor, who gave me a list of common cognitive (thinking) distortions, like this:
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2009/15-com ... stortions/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Studies show that religion can either help or harm us mentally & even physically - based on interpretation of doctrine.

With the goal of optimum mental health and getting the most out of the gospel, I've taken a close look at cognitive distortions in relation to teachings I've learned in the church...

1. Filtering: filtering out positive aspects of a situation while magnifying negative...In church, I've gotten the message that I am not good enough, no matter how much I serve & give & that even if I do a lot & don't pay tithing to the church but instead to the poor, I am unworthy.
2. Polarized thinking: black- or white (when often it is a mix) - BI-POLAR thinking: "The church is either true or not." "You are either on the Lord's side or you aren't."
3. Overgeneralization - something happens once, but general conclusions are based on that one happening - (Prejudice - racial & of "non members")
4. Jumping to conclusions - concluding with out knowing or considering all of the facts -(spiritual feeling interpreted to mean church is completely true, when it may be just a particular personally inspiring aspect... I was taught that if something did not fit neatly into dictated beliefs (ie articles of faith or GA statements) then, it should be discounted automatically..Also, many members assume that people who go "inactive" have done something wrong or are somehow misguided for leaving the church & such people are thus shunned & treated badly.)
5. Catastrophizing - magnifying or minimizing, expecting disaster - "LAST DAYS!!!" Fear of God and Satan.
6. Personalization - taking things personally, comparing - Many take celebrities & political figures as if they represent them personally, because they are Mormon.
7. Control Fallacies - Viewing ourselves victim to external controls, or internalizing others pain (to feel control) - ie story of Joseph Smith being victimized, when he also hurt others.

8. Blaming - holding others responsible for our pain, or blaming ourselves for others pain - (I've never read that Jesus ex-communicated nor disfellowshipped even "the least of these.")
9. Shoulds - making rules about everything - & inducing shame when rules aren't kept (Too many "shoulds" to name. One incorrect shaming is about sex, so many Mormons even struggle sexually after marriage)
10. Emotional Reasoning - thinking feelings are facts (when they aren't) - (I've been taught that Mormonism has a monopoly on the companionship of spirit.)
11. Fallacy of Change - Thinking we can change others & then we'll be happy (both aren't true) ... (There is the teaching that "non-members" are lacking and must change to our ways, as if our way is the only way and that if we convince someone to go our way, we will be happy.)
12. Global Labeling - Generalizing - I was taught that anything outside the beliefs of the church is wrong, but everything said by church leaders is God's word and should not be questioned.
13. Always being right - Continually on trial to prove our opinions & actions are correct - (This goes along with Personalization - where members perceive any praise or criticism of the church as praise or criticism of them, obvious on forums - not just between members and non-members but even within members.
14. Heaven's Reward Fallacy - Belief that if you suffer enough, the pay-off will be worth it after-life. More energy & money is given to try to help those who have died, than those who are alive.

Utah (predominantly Mormon - aprox 70-80%) leads the nation (is #1) of all the United States in anti-depressant use.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/06/ ... 0918.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNe ... ylT44HhdDk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Although Utah has less issues with alcohol, they have substantially more mental illness problems than most states.

Any thoughts on all of this thinking? :)
Last edited by Thinker on February 1st, 2012, 8:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
durangout
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2835
Location: Bugged out man, WAY out

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by durangout »

(-|

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11275
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Thinker »

Durangout -
I guess you think "the kingdom of God within you" (Luke 17:22) is something to yawn about.
You're loss.

FYI: Yawning was originally invented for yelling in the library. ;)

User avatar
Lexew1899
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3480
Location: USA

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Lexew1899 »

Are you still an active member in the church?

User avatar
AGalagaChiasmus
captain of 100
Posts: 453
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by AGalagaChiasmus »

http://xkcd.com/435/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thinking is applied mathematics when you get right to it.

Rand
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2472

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Rand »

Thinker wrote:"As he thinketh in his heart, so is he." -Proverbs 23:7
The heart of repentance is correcting thinking, which then corrects feelings/intent & behavior.

I've always been interested in psychology, "the study of the soul", & believe it to be inseparably connected to spirituality.
When I was very depressed, I went to see a councilor, who gave me a list of common cognitive (thinking) distortions, like this:
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2009/15-com ... stortions/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Studies show that religion can either help or harm us mentally & even physically - based on interpretation of doctrine.


Any thoughts on all of this thinking? :)
I like what you said up to this point(with the exception of the validation of the study of psychology). As a man thinketh in his heart so is he", is a key. If you are thinking the way God thinks on a given idea, you will have peace, love, joy.... in your heart. If you get frustrated, seek to change something, angry or fearful of outcomes, you are not seeing that issue the way God sees it. So change your thinking. Proper thinking always leads to virtue. Improper thinking always leads to emotion.
Thoughts?

User avatar
Matthew.B
captain of 100
Posts: 877
Location: Syracuse, New York

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Matthew.B »

Thinker-

What you've listed might be an accurate reflection of an average Utahn mindset, but it's most definitely not reflective at all of the Mormonism I know, love, and was brought up with. Moreover, I know that this is not the mindset of many Utahns.

You seem to be implying that faith creates a "frenzied mind"- at least, ours does. Perhaps you could explain this post's purposes more clearly, and state your own conclusions?

User avatar
Matthew.B
captain of 100
Posts: 877
Location: Syracuse, New York

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Matthew.B »

*Double Post*
Last edited by Matthew.B on February 1st, 2012, 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11275
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Thinker »

Lexew1899 wrote:Are you still an active member in the church?

I go to church every Sunday,
have 3 callings,
read scriptures & pray each night with our children,
I've developed a new passion for scriptures & study them with enthusiasm,
keep a journal & help my kids write in journals regularly,
do genealogy research,
pay tithing & other offerings to the poor,
embrace goodness & truth whereever I find it,
don't drink alcohol nor use any kind of drugs,
I eat meat sparingly & exercise daily,
help in service when asked and sometimes when I feel spiritually prompted,
and have FHE every Monday evening.

I'm not perfect - but I think I'd be considered an "active" member of the church.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11275
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Thinker »

AGalagaChiasmus wrote:http://xkcd.com/435/

Thinking is applied mathematics when you get right to it.
LOL Funny clip.
On a more serious but similar note, you might like these:
Nature by Numbers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkGeOWYOFoA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1.618 Phi, The Golden Ratio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hvD5kLq ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
AGalagaChiasmus
captain of 100
Posts: 453
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by AGalagaChiasmus »

Thinker wrote:
AGalagaChiasmus wrote:http://xkcd.com/435/

Thinking is applied mathematics when you get right to it.
LOL Funny clip.
On a more serious but similar note, you might like these:
Nature by Numbers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkGeOWYOFoA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1.618 Phi, The Golden Ratio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hvD5kLq ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Oh I'm completely on-board with the Lord using fractals to create/design our physical world. I can't quite put my finger on it, but you see signatures everywhere. I might almost say that it's an Eternal Principle that God merely "sustains" (like agency), and uses like a tool to create. But I might be thinking too hard...

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11275
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Thinker »

Rand wrote:
Thinker wrote:"As he thinketh in his heart, so is he." -Proverbs 23:7
The heart of repentance is correcting thinking, which then corrects feelings/intent & behavior.

I've always been interested in psychology, "the study of the soul", & believe it to be inseparably connected to spirituality.
When I was very depressed, I went to see a councilor, who gave me a list of common cognitive (thinking) distortions, like this:
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2009/15-com ... stortions/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Studies show that religion can either help or harm us mentally & even physically - based on interpretation of doctrine.


Any thoughts on all of this thinking? :)
I like what you said up to this point(with the exception of the validation of the study of psychology). As a man thinketh in his heart so is he", is a key. If you are thinking the way God thinks on a given idea, you will have peace, love, joy.... in your heart. If you get frustrated, seek to change something, angry or fearful of outcomes, you are not seeing that issue the way God sees it. So change your thinking. Proper thinking always leads to virtue. Improper thinking always leads to emotion.
Thoughts?
Hi Rand,
I agree that often when we are "still" we will know/feel God. (Psalms 46:10)
Yet, seeking to change something is not of the adversary. Consider people like Williams Tynsdale or Martin Luther King Jr.
My thought about this is that God is love & love involves a combination of everything... TRUTH & LIGHT.
The only way the pure love will never fail is if it is inclusive, like the serenity prayer:
"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference."

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11275
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Thinker »

Matthew.B wrote:Thinker-

What you've listed might be an accurate reflection of an average Utahn mindset, but it's most definitely not reflective at all of the Mormonism I know, love, and was brought up with. Moreover, I know that this is not the mindset of many Utahns.

You seem to be implying that faith creates a "frenzied mind"- at least, ours does. Perhaps you could explain this post's purposes more clearly, and state your own conclusions?
Matthew,
Thank you for pointing that out.
I know that when we deal with statistics, we're generalizing so it's good to keep it in mind that there are definite exceptions.

I've battled depression and I believe that although there are times for medication, our body & mind were designed to give us pain so we could be aware of and correct problems, not medicate so we don't feel the pain. I also love members of the church - as well as others... I think it's important to be aware of potential harm. Just as we warn our kids to stay away from drugs or to be responsible sexually, we need to stay away from harmful thinking and be responsible in managing our thinking patterns. It is the essence of the gospel "good news" - to learn new & better ways of thinking, which will inspire new & better feelings & behavior.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11275
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Thinker »

AGalagaChiasmus wrote:
Thinker wrote:
AGalagaChiasmus wrote:http://xkcd.com/435/

Thinking is applied mathematics when you get right to it.
LOL Funny clip.
On a more serious but similar note, you might like these:
Nature by Numbers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkGeOWYOFoA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1.618 Phi, The Golden Ratio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hvD5kLq ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Oh I'm completely on-board with the Lord using fractals to create/design our physical world. I can't quite put my finger on it, but you see signatures everywhere. I might almost say that it's an Eternal Principle that God merely "sustains" (like agency), and uses like a tool to create. But I might be thinking too hard...
Awesome, isn't it!?
Once upon a time, Math was my favorite subject, but you don't use it, you lose it.
Still, it doesn't take a Mathematician to realize the order from the trillions of microbes in our bodies to the planets & stars in the universe.
To me, it testifies that God is indeed LOVE. (1John 4:8)
Aristotle explained that everything happens because of an event, except the "Prime Mover" (aka God) who started the ball rolling.
The only way that God could be perfect (lacking potential/unchanging) & still inspire creation/change... is through attraction (love).
Each living energy is attracted to continue its' energy as it sees fit (partially determinism & partially free agency)...
Love makes the world go 'round! :D

User avatar
Original_Intent
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11416

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Original_Intent »

Thinker wrote:
Matthew.B wrote:Thinker-

What you've listed might be an accurate reflection of an average Utahn mindset, but it's most definitely not reflective at all of the Mormonism I know, love, and was brought up with. Moreover, I know that this is not the mindset of many Utahns.

You seem to be implying that faith creates a "frenzied mind"- at least, ours does. Perhaps you could explain this post's purposes more clearly, and state your own conclusions?
Matthew,
Thank you for pointing that out.
I know that when we deal with statistics, we're generalizing so it's good to keep it in mind that there are definite exceptions.

I've battled depression and I believe that although there are times for medication, our body & mind were designed to give us pain so we could be aware of and correct problems, not medicate so we don't feel the pain. I also love members of the church - as well as others... I think it's important to be aware of potential harm. Just as we warn our kids to stay away from drugs or to be responsible sexually, we need to stay away from harmful thinking and be responsible in managing our thinking patterns. It is the essence of the gospel "good news" - to learn new & better ways of thinking, which will inspire new & better feelings & behavior.
I have also battled depression and agree with your conclusions. There can be physical, biochemical problems that need to be medicated. But I feel that my depression and likely the depression of many is that we understand we are not where we should be, and depression results. Medicating that kind of depression defeats the purpose.

I have also in the last few weeks experienced quite acutely "As a man thinketh, so is he." I have had a few months of "rough times". I still have a job but large parts of our company were laid off recently. The future has been very uncertain in our company for several years. My wife and I have had health issues. I have allowed my outlook for the future to become quite resigned and defeatist.

Yesterday as I left work, the sun came out from behind a cloud and for a few brief moments I felt like I did thrity years ago. Idealistic, undefeatable, able to accomplish anything and unburdened with the weight of the world. The sensation lasted for only a few moments, maybe ten seconds at tops, but it is amazing what can be communicated to the soul in a few seconds.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11275
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Thinker »

Original_Intent wrote:I have also battled depression and agree with your conclusions. There can be physical, biochemical problems that need to be medicated. But I feel that my depression and likely the depression of many is that we understand we are not where we should be, and depression results. Medicating that kind of depression defeats the purpose.

I have also in the last few weeks experienced quite acutely "As a man thinketh, so is he." I have had a few months of "rough times". I still have a job but large parts of our company were laid off recently. The future has been very uncertain in our company for several years. My wife and I have had health issues. I have allowed my outlook for the future to become quite resigned and defeatist.

Yesterday as I left work, the sun came out from behind a cloud and for a few brief moments I felt like I did thrity years ago. Idealistic, undefeatable, able to accomplish anything and unburdened with the weight of the world. The sensation lasted for only a few moments, maybe ten seconds at tops, but it is amazing what can be communicated to the soul in a few seconds.
Thanks for sharing this. I think it helps to be open about it - not just for us, but for others too.
That's awesome that you were able to find within yourself so much strength and hope!
That inspiration and motivation is always within us - just needs to be tapped. I think this was center of Jesus' teachings. (Luke 17:22)
I'm trying to learn how to tap into it. I think it's unique for everyone - based on how we resonate & what is needed at that moment.

I know some yawn at this kind of thing, but when the manure hits the fan, it tends to wake everyone up. :)
It reminds me of the parable of the man who built his house on sand & one that built his house on rocks.
If our faith is not rooted deep... if we have other gods before GOD (pure love/truth), then it will not stand.
But if our faith is based on a desire for what is best... courage to do what's in our power & acceptance for what's beyond our power... then we can't fail!

User avatar
ChelC
The Law
Posts: 5982
Location: Utah

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by ChelC »

Filtering: Finding history that is hard and judging all of the gospel on it. Having trouble with some members and applying those feelings to all members.

Polarized thinking: If you don't support what I support, you are the enemy.

Overgeneralization: If you don't question what I question, you aren't thinking.

Jumping to Conclusions: If I know THIS is true, then this has to be true also thinking, when in reality there may be other explanations.

Catastrophizing: Failing in relationships today for fear of tomorrow. Obsessing about last days to the detriment of all else.

Personalization: Other people making different choices is a judgment of me.

Control fallacies: Taking apostates at their word and often distorted reality, while marginalizing the other point of view.

Blaming: I would come to church if people weren't so (fill in the blank).

Shoulds: Setting expectations for other members that are unrealistic and then blaming our failures on them.

Emotional Reasoning: Fast and Testimony meeting makes me mad, so I should protect myself by not going anymore.

Fallacy of Change: If the church would fund programs as I see fit, then I'd be satisfied with the church.

Global Labeling: Active members of the church need to fix (fill in the blank). Questioners are simply doing what they are supposed to do.

Always being right: Criticising the church and calling it questioning. Insisting that members who aren't open to this criticism are not showing appropriate acceptance and charity.

Heaven's Reward Fallacy: The church will have a callout for those who have food storage.

Those are a few ways I see things differently applying the same pathology.

User avatar
mattctr
captain of 100
Posts: 903

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by mattctr »

Thinker, I loved your list. Some good food for thought. Thanks for sharing it.

REMOVED
Last edited by mattctr on February 1st, 2012, 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
AGalagaChiasmus
captain of 100
Posts: 453
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by AGalagaChiasmus »

ChelC wrote:Filtering: Finding history that is hard and judging all of the gospel on it. Having trouble with some members and applying those feelings to all members.

Polarized thinking: If you don't support what I support, you are the enemy.

Overgeneralization: If you don't question what I question, you aren't thinking.

Jumping to Conclusions: If I know THIS is true, then this has to be true also thinking, when in reality there may be other explanations.

Catastrophizing: Failing in relationships today for fear of tomorrow. Obsessing about last days to the detriment of all else.

Personalization: Other people making different choices is a judgment of me.

Control fallacies: Taking apostates at their word and often distorted reality, while marginalizing the other point of view.

Blaming: I would come to church if people weren't so (fill in the blank).

Shoulds: Setting expectations for other members that are unrealistic and then blaming our failures on them.

Emotional Reasoning: Fast and Testimony meeting makes me mad, so I should protect myself by not going anymore.

Fallacy of Change: If the church would fund programs as I see fit, then I'd be satisfied with the church.

Global Labeling: Active members of the church need to fix (fill in the blank). Questioners are simply doing what they are supposed to do.

Always being right: Criticising the church and calling it questioning. Insisting that members who aren't open to this criticism are not showing appropriate acceptance and charity.

Heaven's Reward Fallacy: The church will have a callout for those who have food storage.

Those are a few ways I see things differently applying the same pathology.
:ymapplause: :ymapplause:

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11275
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Thinker »

Original_Intent wrote:I have also battled depression and agree with your conclusions. There can be physical, biochemical problems that need to be medicated. But I feel that my depression and likely the depression of many is that we understand we are not where we should be, and depression results. Medicating that kind of depression defeats the purpose.

I have also in the last few weeks experienced quite acutely "As a man thinketh, so is he."...
One more thing I was going to mention that you brought to mind is the power of thought on our body... ie placebo effect.
Of course, we are complicated beings - so genes, life style & experiences affect us, as do our thoughts.
Our thoughts are often a neglected piece of the puzzle of both mental & physical health...

When there is no obvious explanation for "dis-ease" - it might be helpful to search our thoughts...
Alphabetically searchable metaphysical cite: http://www.vitalaffirmations.com/health ... causes.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11275
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Thinker »

ChelC -
Lots of good comments that helped me consider more ideas regarding this important topic! Thanks!
ChelC wrote:Filtering: Finding history that is hard and judging all of the gospel on it. Having trouble with some members and applying those feelings to all members.
This is part of generalization or polarized thinking.
To believe that the church must be either 100% true or 100% false & since the church is made up of you, me & others, it is like saying you must be 100% good or 100% evil.
Polarized thinking: If you don't support what I support, you are the enemy.
This idea that everyone must believe & support what we do is the basis of wanting to convert the entire world and in extreme cases: religious wars.
Overgeneralization: If you don't question what I question, you aren't thinking.
Also referred to as projection... as if all must think as we do.
Jumping to Conclusions: If I know THIS is true, then this has to be true also thinking, when in reality there may be other explanations.
So true! ;)
Part of maturity and being able to love ourselves & others best, is being able to see many perspectives (without having to cling to all) and to see more options.
Catastrophizing: Failing in relationships today for fear of tomorrow. Obsessing about last days to the detriment of all else.
Also agreed. While it is often necessary to learn from the past & to prepare for the future, the only experience we can have is NOW... in the present.
Personalization: Other people making different choices is a judgment of me.
Taking others' choices personally may make sense if the feeling stirred within us is a legitimate or reasonable concern. IE: If I'm gossiping about someone and others choose not to respond or listen, and I take it personally, then I'd need to consider if their differing choice is something I should internalize to think, feel & act better. Yet, often "to each their own" - we are all in our own stages of internal growth. And often when people are rude, it is more an indication of their lack of ability to love, than about the person they are being rude to.
Control fallacies: Taking apostates at their word and often distorted reality, while marginalizing the other point of view.
This labeling of "apostates" in itself involves many cognitive distortions:
Filtering, Polarized Thinking, Overgeneralization, and Jumping to conclusions, Blaming, Shoulds, Falacy of Change, Global Labeling, &Always Being Right.
Blaming: I would come to church if people weren't so (fill in the blank).
It is true that sometimes it is not the "people" but the person getting offended & holding on to grudges. But I'll tell you, if I were a black person, middle eastern, or any race of dark skin in some Mormon wards, it would be the peoples' problem with prejudice & I'd have reason to not feel comfortable attending church with them.
Shoulds: Setting expectations for other members that are unrealistic and then blaming our failures on them.
This happens a lot in church... expectations that are too high... too long of a "to do list" to feel worthy. This is believed to be why so many in Utah suffer from depression. The "should" mentality of shame. We could continue ignoring the problems & have people popping pills to try to make everything better. But I see honesty & truth as more healing than avoidance & denial.
Emotional Reasoning: Fast and Testimony meeting makes me mad, so I should protect myself by not going anymore.
This is a good point. Some people get upset because of the traditional fear & shame so often & for so many generations preached at the pulpit by so many (leaders & members). This is where interpretation is crucial! IE: Let's take the words "sin" & "repentance" - emotionally charged words. If you think about every single little mistake you've ever made & beat yourself up mentally/emotionally about it... Then if someone gets up to talk about sin & repentance, it will upset you. YET, if you consider sin to be "incorrect thinking" (which it is at the root - since you cannot act without thinking before the action)... and if you consider repentance to be "correcting thinking" - then you will have a more inspiring, less threatening experience of the same talk. Especially if you remember that correcting thinking is essentially the heart of the gospel (good news) and is needed by everyone.
Fallacy of Change: If the church would fund programs as I see fit, then I'd be satisfied with the church.
Your statement is like Martin Luther King Jr., saying, "If the country would enforce laws as I see fit, then I'd be satisfied with the country." There are times when EVIL is considered good & when one must stand up for what is right & in line with the greatest commandments of all (love). Otherwise, you are worshiping other gods before God.
Global Labeling: Active members of the church need to fix (fill in the blank). Questioners are simply doing what they are supposed to do.
If someone said ALL members need to fix (fill in the blank)... then it would be global labeling. Yet, there is a reason why there are studies done & statistics gathered from institutions like the US CDC... to know the general trend, to be able to help the most people. Although Utah has only a fraction of the population of many other states, it leads the nation in anti-depressants. Utah is comprised of 70-80% Mormons. Ignoring this message is continuing harmful ignor-ance.
Always being right: Criticising the church and calling it questioning. Insisting that members who aren't open to this criticism are not showing appropriate acceptance and charity.
The other side of the coin is fearing to question any evil, just because it is from a respected authority. They are considered always right... In other words, a god is being worshiped before God (Love).
Heaven's Reward Fallacy: The church will have a callout for those who have food storage.
This is where common sense comes in... Use it & rotate it. Don't buy buckets of wheat, only to have it rot.

User avatar
Matthew.B
captain of 100
Posts: 877
Location: Syracuse, New York

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Matthew.B »

Well, I think the thread has taken on a much better tone than I was fearing it might.
Thinker wrote:I've battled depression and I believe that although there are times for medication, our body & mind were designed to give us pain so we could be aware of and correct problems, not medicate so we don't feel the pain. I also love members of the church - as well as others... I think it's important to be aware of potential harm.
I agree with this.

I don't think you're doing anything wrong with the approach you've taken, but I always hesitate to use science's yardsticks to judge mental (spiritual) health. Modern psychology and biology understand so little about the human soul (body + spirit combined). Psychotropic drugs, for instance, are incredibly harmful and I don't think they're a good idea in any situation- the root(s) of all "disorders" are spiritual, and if our culture weren't so godless I believe we wouldn't be having so many problems.

Anyway- enjoy the discussion! It's always a good idea to take inventory of one's habits and soul.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11275
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Thinker »

mattctr wrote:Thinker, I loved your list. Some good food for thought. Thanks for sharing it.
You're welcome. I appreciate your positivity. :)
It helps me to remember thinking patterns - because I often find myself falling into them.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11275
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Thinker »

Matthew.B wrote:Well, I think the thread has taken on a much better tone than I was fearing it might.
Thinker wrote:I've battled depression and I believe that although there are times for medication, our body & mind were designed to give us pain so we could be aware of and correct problems, not medicate so we don't feel the pain. I also love members of the church - as well as others... I think it's important to be aware of potential harm.
I agree with this.

I don't think you're doing anything wrong with the approach you've taken, but I always hesitate to use science's yardsticks to judge mental (spiritual) health. Modern psychology and biology understand so little about the human soul (body + spirit combined). Psychotropic drugs, for instance, are incredibly harmful and I don't think they're a good idea in any situation- the root(s) of all "disorders" are spiritual, and if our culture weren't so godless I believe we wouldn't be having so many problems.

Anyway- enjoy the discussion! It's always a good idea to take inventory of one's habits and soul.
Matthew (I've always love that name!),
Thanks for your comments.
I understand your hesitation to use science to measure mental and spiritual health.
As Einstein said, "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."
Originally, (ie Ancient Philosophers like Hippocrates)it seems that both were combined.
And as Brigham Young said, "There is no true religion without true science, & consequently there is no true science without true religion." I think our society's only hope is to embrace both... reason (from science) and faith (spirituality).

Matthew, I really like your point that the root of disorders are spiritual.
Some may argue, "What about those born with physical or mental disabilities?"
Then I'd refer to the scripture, "And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." -John 9:1-3
IE: People with Down's Syndrome, I've come across have a special ability to purely love - it is incredible!
Yet I also know that some with disabilities demand a lot of patience & love as well!

A couple of links I'd like to share in relation to the power of our thoughts...
1. Dr. Bruce Lipton biologically explained how although genes do have influence, environmental influences (aka positive or negative thoughts & associated feelings) directly affect our physiology...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zcg_ldoU40c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2. Some, have researched the effects of thoughts and correlated common areas of the body affected by certain types of thinking. This is not to say that it is the only cause of dis-ease, but it could be a piece of the puzzle, especially when there are no medical explanations... (Searchable A-Z on left side of website)
http://www.vitalaffirmations.com/health ... ations.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I hope these help in one way or another!

Zkulptor
captain of 100
Posts: 943

Re: Rethinking Thinking

Post by Zkulptor »

ChelC wrote:Filtering: Finding history that is hard and judging all of the gospel on it. Having trouble with some members and applying those feelings to all members.

Polarized thinking: If you don't support what I support, you are the enemy.

Overgeneralization: If you don't question what I question, you aren't thinking.

Jumping to Conclusions: If I know THIS is true, then this has to be true also thinking, when in reality there may be other explanations.

Catastrophizing: Failing in relationships today for fear of tomorrow. Obsessing about last days to the detriment of all else.

Personalization: Other people making different choices is a judgment of me.

Control fallacies: Taking apostates at their word and often distorted reality, while marginalizing the other point of view.

Blaming: I would come to church if people weren't so (fill in the blank).

Shoulds: Setting expectations for other members that are unrealistic and then blaming our failures on them.

Emotional Reasoning: Fast and Testimony meeting makes me mad, so I should protect myself by not going anymore.

Fallacy of Change: If the church would fund programs as I see fit, then I'd be satisfied with the church.

Global Labeling: Active members of the church need to fix (fill in the blank). Questioners are simply doing what they are supposed to do.

Always being right: Criticising the church and calling it questioning. Insisting that members who aren't open to this criticism are not showing appropriate acceptance and charity.

Heaven's Reward Fallacy: The church will have a callout for those who have food storage.

Those are a few ways I see things differently applying the same pathology.
:ymparty: :ymparty: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

Post Reply