An LDS 9/11

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Mahonri
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Re: An LDS 9/11

Post by Mahonri »

what's up with the personal attacks njb?

there are some taboo subjects that are pertain to our exaltation, I wont mention them though because they are taboo ;)

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Re: An LDS 9/11

Post by notjamesbond003.5 »

Mahonri,

I didn't mean to offend.
My point is talking about these items are only a diversion to where we should be reaching to attain-Celestial Glory.

And we both know at the veil we won't be quizzed on the mundane items listed here that have stymied a few of our brothers and sisters along the way- while here on earth.

So, why bring them up?

They're beneath you, I and all of the Saints' best interests.

njb

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Re: An LDS 9/11

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notjamesbond003.5 wrote:Mahonri,

I didn't mean to offend.
My point is talking about these items are only a diversion to where we should be reaching to attain-Celestial Glory.

And we both know at the veil we won't be quizzed on the mundane items listed here that have stymied a few of our brothers and sisters along the way- while here on earth.

So, why bring them up?

They're beneath you, I and all of the Saints' best interests.

njb
Some of these items yes, some others + more are not a detraction at all.

You are right, there will only be a few questions asked on the quiz, and none of those questions have been listed. (thankfully)

Why bring them up? I dunno, ask those that brought them up. I just asked if there were questions that other say we should not bring up that are perfectly legit to bring up. Others provided the list. Not me.

Open discussion of most of the things of exaltation are probably left to non public places.

I was not hoping to bring them out, but to just put the question out there. Sparking the thought process is important. Thinking, pondering the things of eternal lives is essential. Though they should not be flaunted, the kind of defensiveness you are showing makes it look like we have something to hide.

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Re: An LDS 9/11

Post by creator »

It seems that applying the Book of Mormon to us today has become taboo for many members. (It's easy to figure out who they are by talking about Secret Combinations and relating it to today)

Regarding whether it's good that certain things are taboo... people have such a hard time living the milk of the gospel that it might not be a good idea to spend our 3-hour block on Sunday discussing the meat, the mysteries or 'taboos'... however, I think that Latter-day Saints should be more involved in studying those things individually, with their families and in study groups outside of Church.

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Re: An LDS 9/11

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Mahonri wrote:
notjamesbond003.5 wrote:Mahonri,


the kind of defensiveness you are showing makes it look like we have something to hide.
Mahonri,

It's the not best use of our knowledge that you and I possess on earth right now.

I'm thinking of the budding testimonies that need to be nurtured right now.

We also know that the wise use of knowledge is intelligence, and we are told to seek after that, because we know the Glory of God is intelligence, not spiritual pornography-ie tangents and theories not based on our Salvation.

njb

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Re: An LDS 9/11

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notjamesbond003.5 wrote:..I'm thinking of the budding testimonies that need to be nurtured right now...
The knowledge and understanding I have gained of the Secret Combinations and other subjects often considered "taboo" have strengthened my testimony.

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Re: An LDS 9/11

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LDSConservative wrote:
notjamesbond003.5 wrote:..I'm thinking of the budding testimonies that need to be nurtured right now...
The knowledge and understanding I have gained of the Secret Combinations and other subjects often considered "taboo" have strengthened my testimony.

I agree Brian. Also, when we wont talk about stuff, it looks like we have something to hide. When some budding testimony goes looking and finds stuff that we weren't willing to talk about, this sucks peopple away so much fast than trying to show them how beautiful all of the Gospel is.

Tangents stay away from, but as we learn in D&C 107, the mysteries we are commanded to seek after to see the face of the Lord.

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Re: An LDS 9/11

Post by ShawnC »

Agreed! I have personally seen more than a few people join the church, and then one day later down the road, some topic comes up and people are all hush about it, the person researches and finds all kinds of truth and lies about it, then sometimes leaves the church feeling that they have been lied to. Sometimes I feel like the church is afraid of it's history or doctrine.

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Re: An LDS 9/11

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LDSConservative wrote:
notjamesbond003.5 wrote:..I'm thinking of the budding testimonies that need to be nurtured right now...
The knowledge and understanding I have gained of the Secret Combinations and other subjects often considered "taboo" have strengthened my testimony.
Correct, but you've been a life long member, I'm talking about recent converts, or members with struggling testimonies.

My point was if or when it comes up address it appropriately, but not be overly anxious to bring it up.

We need to remember that recent converts have taken a whole lot on, there whole world has just changed.
Inactives have been blinded by the craftiness of men, and looking to free themselves of that.

As we don't need to dwell on idiosyncrasies of Biblical Prophets, we need to afford the same respect for our current Prophets.

Pretty basic concept guys.
I'm failing to grasp the wisdom in defending your position so strongly.

njb

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Re: An LDS 9/11

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notjamesbond003.5 wrote:
Pretty basic concept guys.
I'm failing to grasp the wisdom in defending your position so strongly.

njb
which position are we defending? Telling the truth when the topic comes up instead of freaking out?

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Re: An LDS 9/11

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Mahonri wrote:
notjamesbond003.5 wrote:
Pretty basic concept guys.
I'm failing to grasp the wisdom in defending your position so strongly.

njb
which position are we defending? Telling the truth when the topic comes up instead of freaking out?
No, it sounded like you're overly eager to discuss all things both positive and negative about the Gospel w some who are not equipped to deal w it yet-which by shear numbers is the majority of the Church.

Milk before meat, line upon line, remember?

Thanks,

njb

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Re: An LDS 9/11

Post by Haet »

notjamesbond003.5 wrote:we know the Glory of God is intelligence, not spiritual pornography-ie tangents and theories not based on our Salvation.
:!: :?:

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Re: An LDS 9/11

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notjamesbond003.5 wrote:
Mahonri wrote:
notjamesbond003.5 wrote:
Pretty basic concept guys.
I'm failing to grasp the wisdom in defending your position so strongly.

njb
which position are we defending? Telling the truth when the topic comes up instead of freaking out?
No, it sounded like you're overly eager to discuss all things both positive and negative about the Gospel w some who are not equipped to deal w it yet-which by shear numbers is the majority of the Church.

Milk before meat, line upon line, remember?

Thanks,

njb
Oh, nope. Not my intention. I have no desire to discuss anything people are not ready for. Not that I have a vast amount of knowledge about anything.

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Re: An LDS 9/11

Post by Rosabella »

Zowieink wrote:I don't know. I think this stuff is all trivia and of no real worth. They don't hold a candle to learning all there is to know about the temple or Jesus Christ. I'm a convert to the Church, and have been batteedr with the anti-mormon stuff most of my life, from "friends".

All of the taboo questions have answers, but are we, as members who can't even get past the very very basic gospel essentials, ready meaning spiritually ready to hear the answers. Heck, we can't even do the simplist things, like home teaching, or go to temple one a YEAR :shock: . I firmly believe that if we have a question, then we ask Heavenly Father after we have studied it out in our minds. If we receive a stupor of thought, drop the whole thing because its not important to our salvation. If we, however, receive and answer through the Holy Ghost, then we should treasure it up as a blessing.

Its way to easy for Satan to come in and mess up our minds with the deeper aspects of the gospel. We must be spiritually ready.

I agree with you with what you have said.

I am a convert too. I to was hit with every piece of anti-Mormon propaganda before I joined. The Spirit's witness is much stronger than mans intellectual arguments. :)

The deeper mysteries or taboos will not save us, as fun as they can be, but they can distract us from doing what we have been told to do or even lead us out of the Church. I may sound extreme here but I dare say we loose far more members from not studying the basics and acting upon the those principles (and or) trying to find mysteries, then we do from not answering taboos. I see so many leaving the Church because they tried to add upon their knowledge from the world what they thought were just mysteries but were really turned out to be lies.

The basics is where safety and salvation is at. That foundation must be very very solid before you can delve into deeper things. Most people are not that grounded in the basics in the Church right now, for we are hit with the world everywhere we turn. This can lead people easily astray.

I was told by someone recently of a person called to be a ward missionary. I may not have all the details right, but this should be close. This person was asked to attend the Gospel Principles instead of Gospel Doctrine. Well this person said oh No! I need to be in Gospel Doctrine because I learn things there. I already know all the Gospel principles. I do not need to attend that, I have read it like 10 times! Well someone had the guts to hold up the scriptures and say something to the effect of how often are we told to read these? (something like that, very gutsy) The point is that this person felt that they did not need the basics so they did not need to attend the class. In their insistence they did not need Gospel Principles, shows they really did, for the reason for them to go to the meeting was not for their own good, but to benefit those investigators and returning members in the class. So the basic idea of selfless giving was missing in this person. So I say the basics were definitely needed for this person to hear.

My point is this, when we think milk is not what we need anymore and all we need is meat that should be a warning sign that we need to go back to milk. Because all the saving principles are in the milk, if that gets boring or does not taste good anymore there is something out of line we need to fix. For in the basics is all the wonder and beauty of the Gospel. Knowing the deeper stuff will not save us if we are not really doing the basics. I think in the basics is where we will find the true mysteries.

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Re: An LDS 9/11

Post by Mahonri »

Bella wrote:
The deeper mysteries or taboos will not save us,
Only Christ will save us.

However, for exaltation; D&C 107:19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.


That's what I am going for.

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Re: An LDS 9/11

Post by Rosabella »

Mahonri wrote:
Bella wrote:
The deeper mysteries or taboos will not save us,
Only Christ will save us.

However, for exaltation; D&C 107:19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.


That's what I am going for.
I agree, but that only comes from knowing and truly living the basics. Therein you will find the mysteries of God.

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Re: An LDS 9/11

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Bella wrote:
Zowieink wrote:I don't know. I think this stuff is all trivia and of no real worth. They don't hold a candle to learning all there is to know about the temple or Jesus Christ. I'm a convert to the Church, and have been batteedr with the anti-mormon stuff most of my life, from "friends".

All of the taboo questions have answers, but are we, as members who can't even get past the very very basic gospel essentials, ready meaning spiritually ready to hear the answers. Heck, we can't even do the simplist things, like home teaching, or go to temple one a YEAR :shock: . I firmly believe that if we have a question, then we ask Heavenly Father after we have studied it out in our minds. If we receive a stupor of thought, drop the whole thing because its not important to our salvation. If we, however, receive and answer through the Holy Ghost, then we should treasure it up as a blessing.

Its way to easy for Satan to come in and mess up our minds with the deeper aspects of the gospel. We must be spiritually ready.

I agree with you with what you have said.

I am a convert too. I to was hit with every piece of anti-Mormon propaganda before I joined. The Spirit's witness is much stronger than mans intellectual arguments. :)

The deeper mysteries or taboos will not save us, as fun as they can be, but they can distract us from doing what we have been told to do or even lead us out of the Church. I may sound extreme here but I dare say we loose far more members from not studying the basics and acting upon the those principles (and or) trying to find mysteries, then we do from not answering taboos. I see so many leaving the Church because they tried to add upon their knowledge from the world what they thought were just mysteries but were really turned out to be lies.

The basics is where safety and salvation is at. That foundation must be very very solid before you can delve into deeper things. Most people are not that grounded in the basics in the Church right now, for we are hit with the world everywhere we turn. This can lead people easily astray.

I was told by someone recently of a person called to be a ward missionary. I may not have all the details right, but this should be close. This person was asked to attend the Gospel Principles instead of Gospel Doctrine. Well this person said oh No! I need to be in Gospel Doctrine because I learn things there. I already know all the Gospel principles. I do not need to attend that, I have read it like 10 times! Well someone had the guts to hold up the scriptures and say something to the effect of how often are we told to read these? (something like that, very gutsy) The point is that this person felt that they did not need the basics so they did not need to attend the class. In their insistence they did not need Gospel Principles, shows they really did, for the reason for them to go to the meeting was not for their own good, but to benefit those investigators and returning members in the class. So the basic idea of selfless giving was missing in this person. So I say the basics were definitely needed for this person to hear.

My point is this, when we think milk is not what we need anymore and all we need is meat that should be a warning sign that we need to go back to milk. Because all the saving principles are in the milk, if that gets boring or does not taste good anymore there is something out of line we need to fix. For in the basics is all the wonder and beauty of the Gospel. Knowing the deeper stuff will not save us if we are not really doing the basics. I think in the basics is where we will find the true mysteries.
QFT.
Quoted for Truth.
and not
"Quite F-ing true"
;)

njb

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Re: An LDS 9/11

Post by Mahonri »

Then I guess it all hangs on what the definition of basics is.

Knowing who God is could be considered basic to some, but pretty meaty to others

knowing what it means to get rid of all ungodliness can seem like a pretty basic principle, until you start trying to do it

Applying the scriptures to our lives is a pretty basic thing, but them you start talking about specific scriptures and that gets pretty mysterious


I think that the principles in general are pretty simple, but it is when you start getting down to the specifics of those same principles that it gets pretty meaty and mysterious.

Generalities seem to be that way across the board. You say "stealing is wrong" most will agree with you. You say "stealing to pay for your child's education is wrong" and most will NOT agree with you.

Same principle, but the specifics is where it got kinda gristly and mysterious. :D

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Re: An LDS 9/11

Post by notjamesbond003.5 »

Mahonri wrote:.

Generalities seem to be that way across the board. You say "stealing is wrong" most will agree with you. You say "stealing to pay for your child's education is wrong" and most will NOT agree with you.
:?:

I think dirty money to pay for an child's education would be considered wrong as most Temple LDS people would agree.

Mahonri, where you coming from?

njb

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Re: An LDS 9/11

Post by mackej »

Hi guys,

I'm starting to get a little confused here. Are we now talking about the "mysteries of the kingdom" or the taboo subjects that people are afraid of bringing up because it might shake people's faith?

In fact, how do people define what the "mysteries of the kingdom" are? I don't think that issues like the Mountain Meadows massacre and such are those "mysteries" that are talked about in the scriptures. They're just evidences of imperfect people making mistakes, or doing things that we perceive to be mistakes. Hm.... not exactly spiritually enlightening in my opinion. However, they should never be hid under the carpet, because if there's no discussion, people will eventually feel like they've been lied to (as others in this thread have already mentioned). On the other hand, meditating and exploring (on a personal basis, mind you, because I have no right to claim personal revelation on behalf of other individuals) such "mysteries" as the existence of a Heavenly Mother or the symbolisms in the temple are quite faith-promoting. God wants us to think for ourselves and explore the rich, beautiful vastness of His gospel, and yet, like Bella says, appreciate the profound beauty of the simple messages too. So much can be learned from the children around us, as Jesus Christ powerfully pointed out.

Let's take Hugh Nibley, for example. He wasn't afraid to explore the "mysteries," and he has some amazing insights. I find his articles very thought-provoking. I don't take them as "gospel," but I still find great delight in reading them. They definitely enhance my understanding of the scriptures. Like Mahonri, I believe that God wants us to seek out greater light and knowledge. It will only serve to increase our spirituality, in my opinion.

I think we need to make a better distinction here between the subjects that are "taboo" because there has been no specific prophetic revelation on the subject, but yet is still spiritually enriching to ponder upon, and the taboo subjects that seem to discredit the church in some way. I have a feeling that if we make this distinction, we'll actually find that we're in greater agreement here than we thought.

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Re: An LDS 9/11

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notjamesbond003.5 wrote:
Mahonri wrote:.

Generalities seem to be that way across the board. You say "stealing is wrong" most will agree with you. You say "stealing to pay for your child's education is wrong" and most will NOT agree with you.
:?:

I think dirty money to pay for an child's education would be considered wrong as most Temple LDS people would agree.

Mahonri, where you coming from?

njb

:lol: I would say 95 percent of LDS steal from their neighbors to pay for their childs education, and think it is a patriotic duty to do so.

“I am opposed to free education as much as I am opposed to taking away property from one man and giving it to another… Would I encourage free schools by taxation? No!” (General Conference 1877)

A simple principle turned into a deep mystery because of our slothfulness, idolatry, and covetousness. :wink:

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Re: An LDS 9/11

Post by notjamesbond003.5 »

And so long to the 12th Article of Faith..

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Re: An LDS 9/11

Post by Mahonri »

mackej wrote:Hi guys,

I'm starting to get a little confused here. Are we now talking about the "mysteries of the kingdom" or the taboo subjects that people are afraid of bringing up because it might shake people's faith?

In fact, how do people define what the "mysteries of the kingdom" are? I don't think that issues like the Mountain Meadows massacre and such are those "mysteries" that are talked about in the scriptures. They're just evidences of imperfect people making mistakes, or doing things that we perceive to be mistakes. Hm.... not exactly spiritually enlightening in my opinion. However, they should never be hid under the carpet, because if there's no discussion, people will eventually feel like they've been lied to (as others in this thread have already mentioned). On the other hand, meditating and exploring (on a personal basis, mind you, because I have no right to claim personal revelation on behalf of other individuals) such "mysteries" as the existence of a Heavenly Mother or the symbolisms in the temple are quite faith-promoting. God wants us to think for ourselves and explore the rich, beautiful vastness of His gospel, and yet, like Bella says, appreciate the profound beauty of the simple messages too. So much can be learned from the children around us, as Jesus Christ powerfully pointed out.

Let's take Hugh Nibley, for example. He wasn't afraid to explore the "mysteries," and he has some amazing insights. I find his articles very thought-provoking. I don't take them as "gospel," but I still find great delight in reading them. They definitely enhance my understanding of the scriptures. Like Mahonri, I believe that God wants us to seek out greater light and knowledge. It will only serve to increase our spirituality, in my opinion.

I think we need to make a better distinction here between the subjects that are "taboo" because there has been no specific prophetic revelation on the subject, but yet is still spiritually enriching to ponder upon, and the taboo subjects that seem to discredit the church in some way. I have a feeling that if we make this distinction, we'll actually find that we're in greater agreement here than we thought.

Good points. Some mysteries are taboo, some things that are taboo are not mysteries.

We kind of got off on a tangent here, but still semi related.

In addition to the two you mention in your last paragraph, there are taboos because

*most members don't know about them even though the prophets have spoken much about them

*they are sacred

*we are offended by it

*we are afraid to offend others especially less actives and investigators

perhaps more.

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Re: An LDS 9/11

Post by Mahonri »

notjamesbond003.5 wrote:And so long to the 12th Article of Faith..

:shock: :?:

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Re: An LDS 9/11

Post by ereves »

Mahonri wrote:I was thinking, is there is an LDS "9/11"? Are there Gospel topics you just don't talk about in Church for the same reasons you can't talk about 9/11 in the mainstream media?[...]

FOLLOW UP
Why is it taboo? Is it good that it is taboo and why?
To continue the 9/11 analogy, it is taboo to suggest that the American government or America in general could be the bad guy. As for why it is taboo, it's because it challenges a dogmatic worldview in which America is innately good and can therefore only do good. As for whether it is good for it to be taboo I would say no. Many people do not look into 9/11 only because it does not coincide with their dogmatic beliefs. They are more than willing to reject facts merely on the basis that they don't fit into their beliefs because their beliefs were not based on facts to begin with. "America is good and cannot do bad (on that large of a scale). If the government were involved in 9/11 it would no longer be good so it must not be true and so I will reject anything that points to that." If people looked at the facts and based their beliefs off of the facts rather than the other way around they would find very good reason to at least consider government involvement in 9/11.

To apply the analogy to the church, from what I have seen, those who are threatened by taboo topics are only threatened because it challenges some aspect of their dogmatic beliefs. Perhaps one that would be comparable to the US being innately good and therefore it being impossible for it to do bad would be "The Church is true and therefore anything the church does is good." The differnence here would be that while the initial premise may be true, the conclusion does not follow, while the previous example's premise (America) is not true and even if it were the conclusion still would not necessarily follow. From my experience, it is taboo to suggest that anything the prophet/church has done may not have been correct/inspired because that challenges so many people's dogmatic belief that the church can't do anything wrong, and like the example in the analogy, I do not think that is a good thing. Our deepest loyalty should be to the truth, and so we should not be afraid to consider facts. Much understanding is lost because we fail to consider those aspects of the church/church history that may not coincide with our dogmatic beliefs.

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