What constitutes as LDS Doctrine and Scriptures?

[Rosabella]

Since there always seems to be in question on this site what is deemed as True Scriptures or Doctrines of the LDS Church I thought it would be good to start a thread on the matter in question.

We as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not left up to our own understandings of Church doctrines. The Lord as he has promised that he will give us the doctrines through our Church. As members we are encouraged to independently strive to receive our own spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of Church doctrine. (not our own doctrines, but a confirmation of he Church doctrine set forth in the following places.)

Approaching Mormon Doctrine

By the LDS Church "The Official Church Resource for News Media, Opinion Leaders, and the Public

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng ... n-doctrine

Make sure you click the (here and here) too.. In the article.

Some highlights:

With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith.


What constitutes as scripture:

"Joseph Smith added new revelations to the body of scripture: the volume of sacred writ was not to be closed. Many of these revelations were communicated during regular conferences, then printed in official reports. Significantly, these revelations stand as scripture itself: “What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, … my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.” (D&C 1:38.)

Thus, by experience and revelation, Joseph learned and taught (1) that scripture is nothing more or less than the word of the Lord, (2) that the book of God’s word is not closed, (3) that God speaks to all dispensations, (4) that scripture must be correctly understood through the spirit of truth, and (5) that the words of the Lord’s servants when moved upon by the Holy Ghost are scripture, too. (See 2 Pet. 1:20–21; D&C 68:4.)"

"Individual members are encouraged to independently strive to receive their own spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of Church doctrine. Moreover, the Church exhorts all people to approach the gospel not only intellectually but with the intellect and the spirit, a process in which reason and faith work together."


Again lets look at this quote for greater understanding:

"With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications."

Here is a list of Official Church publications:

http://www.lds.org/gospellibrary/pdfind ... -1,00.html

Holy Bible
Triple Combination
MAGAZINES
Ensign (for adults)
New Era (for youth)
Friend (for children)
Liahona (international)



2009 CURRICULUM

Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual
This manual contains 46 lessons for teaching adults and youth ages 14–17 in Sunday School Gospel Doctrine classes.

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith
This book is the ninth in a series of books of teachings of Presidents of the Church.


Gospel Doctrine
New Testament Gospel Doctrine Teacher's Manual
New Testament Times at a Glance: PDF Chart
Old Testament Gospel Doctrine Teacher's Manual
Old Testament Times at a Glance: PDF Chart
Book of Mormon Gospel Doctrine Teacher's Manual (2008)
Book of Mormon Times at a Glance: PDF Chart
Book of Mormon: Class Member Study Guide
Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Gospel Doctrine Teacher's Manual
Doctrine and Covenants Times at a Glance: PDF Chart
Doctrine and Covenants and Church History: Class Member Study Guide
Our Heritage
Teachings of Presidents of the Church
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith (2008)
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Heber J. Grant
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young


Additional Manuals
Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood, Part A
Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood, Part B
Gospel Principles
Marriage and Family Relations Instructor's Manual
Marriage and Family Relations Participant's Study Guide
Preach My Gospel
Teaching, No Greater Call
The Latter-day Saint Woman, Part A
The Latter-day Saint Woman, Part B
Guidebooks and Other Information
Basic Unit Program Guidebook
Branch Guidebook
Family Guidebook
"Priesthood Ordinances and Blessings"
Information for Priesthood and Auxiliary Leaders on Curriculum
Priesthood and Auxiliary Leaders' Guidebook
Teachings for Our Time
Teaching Guidebook
Annual Histories
God Loveth His Children
Youth Materials
Resource Guides (2010), Aaronic Priesthood and Young Women
Resource Guides (2009), Aaronic Priesthood and Young Women
Aaronic Priesthood: Fulfilling Our Duty to God (Deacon)
Aaronic Priesthood: Fulfilling Our Duty to God (Teacher)
Aaronic Priesthood: Fulfilling Our Duty to God (Priest)
For the Strength of Youth
Guidebook for Parents and Leaders of Youth
Seminary Student Study Guide - Book of Mormon
Seminary Student Study Guide - Doctrine and Covenants
Seminary Student Study Guide - New Testament
Seminary Student Study Guide - Old Testament
True to the Faith
Young Women Personal Progress
Young Women Camp Manual
Children's Materials
2009 Outline and Sacrament Meeting Presentation
Faith in God for Girls
Faith in God for Boys
Behold Your Little Ones: Nursery Manual
Proclamations and Declarations
The Family: A Proclamation to the World
The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles

[Cowell]

During my mission, if someone was confused about a statement by a leader in the Church, we always said anything that is official doctrine of the Church could be found in our standard works we carried around.

[oneClimbs]

There was a guy in my mission who was a stake missionary (at the time) who had a cool story. Back when he was a newly ordained missionary, he met in the temple with Harold B. Lee and all the other new missionaries. They sat around a room after the endowment and the prophet offered them to ask any question they wanted about the ordinance (pretty cool). As the elders asked, the prophet opened up the scriptures and proceeded to answer every question directly from the scriptures. Then when one elder asked one specific question, the prophet closed his scriptures and said, "The answer to that question cannot be found in the holy scriptures, thus saith the Lord." He then said all the missionaries kind of jumped back, just blown away to hear a prophet of God throw down a "thus saith the Lord." Anyway, I always liked that story. The guy who shared it lived in Idaho, he was a really good guy.

I guess my point is that we do a pretty good job in our church at defining what is and is not official doctrine; it's pretty clear. Every now and then, we hear things in general conference or in some obscure talk or something that seems to throw a monkey wrench into what we understand. I think it's pretty safe to say that anything in general conference is the very latest instruction from the Lord and should have first priority in what we comply to or not. If something false is uttered in conference, the church will issue a correction, if not, you can pretty much consider it the word of the Lord. Remember, the Lord picks the speakers!

I think that is where we can sometimes run into problems with those who are not of our religion. They are very bound to the scriptures and unwilling to consider modern direction which I kind of find ironic. Think about it. They have a book (the Bible) that is essentially teaching 2 different religions - in a manner of speaking. They will point to the Bible and say "why don't you do this or that" while they are missing prophets, apostles, priesthood, etc... They also don't seem to realize that by the same argument, they should be slaughtering one of their first-born lambs whenever they sin. Why don't they sacrifice animals, it says so in the Bible? Oh yea, because of that little fact called: CONTINUING REVALUATION.

[creator]

Due to a comment in a different discussion I wanted to post some things here that I believe adds some clarification to Bella's post...

DOCTRINES come as divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine.

CHURCH PUBLICATIONS are used to proclaim this established doctrine.

That doesn't mean that everything you read in an official Church Publication is doctrine, but that these are the tools and resources used to publish doctrine, among other things.

An example is that of an article written by Joe Shmoe which appears in the Ensign. While this article may have value to those who read it, and he may be quoting some doctrine in the article, the words of Joe Shmoe are not establishing doctrine simply for being in an official church magazine.

[Black Swan]

In regards to all the manuals and magazines and the entire list you posted, I find the following quote from Joseph F. Smith on target:

Joseph F. Smith said the following:

"The Standard Works of the Church are the measuring rods the Lord has given us by which we are to measure every doctrine, every theory and teaching, and if there is anything that does not conform to that which is given to us in the revelations, we do not have to accept it. Whether I say it or anyone else says it, whether it comes through the philosophy of men, or whenever a statement is made, that is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, you should know what course to take. So far as I am concerned, I will just put it aside. And I don't care how many men may believe it. I don't care how much backing it has in the world of so-called science or philosophy. If it does not harmonize with what the Lord has revealed, to me it is not worth anything. (The Signs of the Times, P.21-22)" (See also Isaiah 8:20; 2 Nephi 3:12 and D&C 42:12)

As for manuals being "official doctrine", I'd contrast that with what Hugh Nibley said (his works were some of the curriculum of study back in the 1950s and 1960s):

Many have noted the strong tendency of Latter-day Saints to avoid making waves. They seem strangely touchy on controversial issues. This begets an extreme lack of candor among the saints, which in turn is supported by a new doctrine according to which we have a Prophet at our head who relieves us of all responsibility for seeking knowledge beyond a certain point, making decisions or taking action on our own. From this it follows that one must never question a manual or Lesson Book, even though it may swarm with errors and evasions. But obedience, the first step in enlightenment, is not the last.
(Hugh Nibley, "Endowment History," June 1986, unpublished manuscript, p. 74-75).

Interestingly, many of the posts recently that I've seen have focused on calling anyone who advocates anything against the "infallibility" of our leaders (and those who write the manuals) as apostate. To those thoughts, I'd add this quote:

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.1, APOSTATE

Apostasy may be accelerated by a faulty assumption that scripture or Church leaders are infallible. Joseph Smith taught that "a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such" (HC 5:265). He also declared he "was but a man, and [people] must not expect me to be perfect" (HC 5:181). Neither the Church nor its leaders and members claim infallibility.

I also think the following write-up is worth consideration...as it relates directly to this post, as well as some other postings I've seen on this site lately. Now, to the meat of this discussion:

http://www.weepingforzion.com/?p=140

Importance of Standard works

It has often been said that the most efficient way to destroy an organization is by working from inside the organization and while inside, weakening it’s resolve and diluting it’s purposes. The fall of Rome did not come with fire, but long before that, with the subjection of the Roman people to the moral slavery of their government. The Fall of the early Christian church did not come because of the wickedness of those persecuting them, but because of the wickedness of the members and leaders of the Christian movement.

If this is truly a pattern for the destruction of organizations then it would be wise for all of us to not stand idly by and allow it to happen to our church today. If the Adversary has been successful using this method before he will surely use it again, and what better target for his efforts then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Clearly many readers will have the belief that it is impossible for the church to “fall”, that the Lord has promised us that the truth will never again be taken from the earth. While discussing this viewpoint would require a separate paper all by itself, I will instead leave that for another day and simply ask this question. “Whether the church can fall or not, do you think that Satan will try to make it fall?” The answer is clearly that Satan will try to cause the church to falter and fall, just like any other Godly organization. What we need to do is to recognize the signs of his working, so that we can see them for what they are, should they ever appear in our organization.

First we must decide what it is about the church that keeps us safe, what do we have that can delay, or refute the attacks of the adversary? There are many answers to this question, including prayer, fasting, and revelation. However, the aspect of our church I want to focus on for this paper is the Iron Rod, the holy word of God, the scriptures.

The Scriptures

Joseph F. Smith said the following:

the Standard Works of the Church are the measuring rods the Lord has given us by which we are to measure every doctrine, every theory and teaching, and if there is anything that does not conform to that which is given to us in the revelations, we do not have to accept it. Whether I say it or anyone else says it, whether it comes through the philosophy of men, or whenever a statement is made, that is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, you should know what course to take.

So, President Smith is basically saying that the Standard Works (Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants) are the standard that we hold everything else that is said up to and that if something is out of line with those works, then we should reject it as a people.

This brings me to what clearly must be Satan’s purpose, to minimize, and eventually do away with our reliance on the scriptures as a church. As we become less and less comfortable with the scriptures, it will be easier and easier for Satan to gradually pull us away from God’s truth, and get us to waste our time chasing after things and “teachings” that do not influence our eternal salvation.

How could Satan pull us away from the scriptures?

This leaves Satan with a difficult purpose, to get members of a church that claims to believe that the standard works are the “measuring rods”, to voluntarily do away with those same measuring rods. It is not a purpose that he would be able to reach overnight but rather a gradual process, akin to boiling a frog alive by gradually turning up the heat on a pot of water.

Step One:

Satan would first need to create dependence between the lay members of the church and the leadership of the church. The lay members would need to be taught and believe that their leaders, while “capable” of misdirection and misunderstanding, would not be “allowed” to do so by the Lord, and that the Lord would “take” them before he would allow them to unintentionally or intentionally lead the people astray. This belief, properly accepted by the whole would place in the hearts of the people an unnatural dependence on whoever is/are their current leaders.

Joseph Smith himself spoke of the follow of such dependence in the church during his time when he said (as quoted by Eliza R. Snow):

The people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men, in that state of corruption of the Jewish church- that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls…- said if the people departed from the Lord they must fall- that they were depending on the prophet, hence were darkened in their minds.

When we begin to rely on the words of a living man it is easy to justify not spending quality time in the scriptures. Even if we find ourselves still reading them, our reading will be rote and uninfluencial because we will not be looking for truth, simply checking off a daily “to do” list. It is easy to feel that “the prophet will tell me what I need to know, it is more important that I follow the prophet then read the scriptures”. Don’t think this happens today? How many Mormon’s do you know that have actually read the Bible from cover to cover? I would guess that less than 1 in 200 have done so. I would guess that less than 50% of Mormons have ever read the Book of Mormon all the way through and less than 5% have done it in the last year.

To get us to leave the scriptures, and rely on the words of another, is the first step in Satan’s corrupting this church. It is so easy, it takes so much less work to have weak scripture studies, studies that do not push our minds and understanding and then to justify such weak studies, just listen to the “prophet” tell stories twice a year.

Step Two:

Once dependence is created between lay members and their leaders, Satan would begin to teach that every teaching dealing with doctrine that was spoken by these leaders was true, and therefore doctrinal, and equal in importance to the scriptures. He would teach that when a leader says something out of harmony with the standard works, that the fault lies with our interpretation of the standard works, not in what the leader said. (This is a tricky element because sometimes this is true, but Satan would teach that it is always true).

He would hold up the writings of the modern leaders and the standard works and say “These are both scripture”, but the truth of the matter is that they are not.

Step Three:

Now that Satan has created a dependence on the arm of flesh and he had created a type of “pseudo” scripture every time a leader speaks, Satan would now begin to replace our standard works with the modern words of our modern leaders.

He would do this with the following purposes:

1. Gradually, as our church becomes more mainstream, our leaders would begin to say things that are not scriptural, but instead “Philosophies of men, mingled with scripture”.
2. Base the teaching of the modern church off of these “philosophies” instead of the standard works (aka Iron Rod)
3. This is easily done because as a whole we will all believe that whatever these men said is true.

Step Four:

The replacing of the standard works with modern teachings would best be done by creating “manuals” containing the words of the “modern leaders” along with the words of the Standard Works. Over time as the manuals are updated there will be less and less of the standard works, and more and more of the statements of modern leaders.

Eventually we will get manuals that are nothing but the statements of the modern leads of the church, absent of almost all scriptural reference.

We will begin to treat the words of these modern leaders in every way as scripture. We will motivate each other to replace our reading of the standard works with challenges to spend our time reading the statements and teachings of the modern day leaders.

When people are asked to speak in church instead of being given a “subject” to speak on, they will be given a “talk” given by a modern leader to speak on (Elder So and So’s talk on _______ on page ___ ).

While this dependence might seem harmless at first, I cannot stress how dangerous this road is. We are beginning to already see the fruits of a church that neglects the standard works for modern interpretations and in time those fruits will become more and more clear to us in their destructive nature.

Conclusion:

The Lord has given us the standard works as a yardstick to measure truth by. He has also given us prophets to revel additional truth but that additional truth will not contradict the standard works. Nothing Joseph ever taught contradicted true teachings in the Bible or Book of Mormon.

No man is saved in ignorance yet almost all of our modern “saints” are living in ignorance. We have been taught not to search the mysteries (although the scriptures tell us to search them), we have been taught to rely on the arm of flesh in the form of a leader (although the scriptures tell us not to).

Over time, as we continue to sustain leaders that have less and less the spirit of God, and more and more the spirit of the world, we will come to see the great tragedy that Satan truly has already worked in our church as we begin to see good, kind members thrown about by every wind of doctrine because they are so busy following the teachings of men that they neglect the more weightier teachings of the Lord.

Here is to the belief that one day as a church we will go back to our scriptural roots, that we will not be scared to question teachings that are not scriptural no matter who they come from, that we will have the knowledge to recognize non scriptural teachings, that we will stop caring how the world sees us and that we, as a people, may once again be found worthy in the sight of the Lord.

Pick up your standard works, put down your magazines and come to know God.

[ereves]

Great post Black Swan. Great post.

Due to a comment in a different discussion I wanted to post some things here that I believe adds some clarification to Bella's post...

DOCTRINES come as divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine.

CHURCH PUBLICATIONS are used to proclaim this established doctrine.

That doesn't mean that everything you read in an official Church Publication is doctrine, but that these are the tools and resources used to publish doctrine, among other things.

Exactly LDSConservative. The full quote is

With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. THIS DOCTRINE resides in the four “standard works” of scripture,... official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith.

Black Swan, the Joseph F. Smith quote is so good. If anyone were to get up in conference and declare something that clearly contradicts scripture I will reject it. If I’m apostate for thinking so, so was Joseph F. Smith.

During my mission, if someone was confused about a statement by a leader in the Church, we always said anything that is official doctrine of the Church could be found in our standard works we carried around.

Good job Cowell, I think that was a perfect response.

Bella, I actually already started a post with the purpose of understanding what “official doctrine” is (http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9389) I think the qutes will be very informative… they were for me. From them I think I can with quite a bit of confidence claim that according to the church we could establish a priority of doctrine as follows:

1) Standard Works
2) Official Declarations and Proclamations/articles of faith
3) Manuals/Magazines etc (including conference talks)
4) other church materials
5) primary songs (jk)

I would love your input on my official doctrine post but if you’d prefer I’d be happy to just post my OP here in this thread.

[Rosabella]

Well Black Swan it is very revealing where you stand on the Brethren, since they are Satan's bait to lead us astray...........

"Over time, as we continue to sustain leaders that have less and less the spirit of God, and more and more the spirit of the world, we will come to see the great tragedy that Satan truly has already worked in our church as we begin to see good, kind members thrown about by every wind of doctrine because they are so busy following the teachings of men that they neglect the more weightier teachings of the Lord.

Is that your site you quote Black Swan :weeping for zion? http://www.weepingforzion.com/?p=252

This site, really goes into slamming the Church. The complaint that we have the option to rent temple clothing is being compared to the money changers! The rental fee at a temple for the clothes is merely to pay for the cost of laundering and eventual replacement. It has nothing to do with making money or to profit. This shows me this site deemed appropriate in give good solid doctrinal advice is not based in correct understandings or principles and from reading its contents it seem more apostate then not. Be careful the path you are on.

Here is that quote:

"For some though, its not that easy. Not everyone owns temple clothing. I personally know several people who cannot afford to buy clothing specific to temple worship. It could be said that if they sacrificed a bit, and tried, they would be able to afford it. But that’s beside the point. Also, there are times and people, I know I am one of them, that folks who travel a good distance to a temple get there and realize they forget their temple clothes. I’ve done this several times. For the poor and the forgetful the temple offers a handy service. In order to worship at the temple, in order to offer your proxy sacrifice, you can for a small sum rent clothing from the temple for the days service. After all, it is as it should be, you can have anything in this world for money.

Isn’t this incredible? the two, that of the saviors time and our now, are very similar. In order to offer sacrifice in proxy at the temple, certain things are required and those things are provided for a small price right there within the walls of the temple. Surely this vast church corporation could afford to have clothing to rent for free for the same purpose. Do we really need to tax the people who enter? Are the things of Caesar really welcome in the temple? or do they provide a moment of Babylonian businees, of building up the things of the world, before being allowed to enter the house of Lord?

This website is against the Christus on Temple Square:


Idolatry


Photo of Christus

Though they make sure to tell you on the tour that we don’t worship the Idol, we only use it as a reminder, the fact remains an graven image was made unto us.

As the original Command confirms: “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”

No doubt here we have an 11 foot high likeness of something that is on the earth, in the heavens, etc…Can’t we call it for what it is? Its an idol, the work of men’s hands, erected of all places on temple Squares, and near various temples throughout the globe.

Every man is brutish by his knowledge; every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. They are vanity, the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.
(Jer 51)


Also this site goes into great detail how the Churches current Tithing policy is incorrect.

From these and many other points I say again this is headed into apostasy if not already there. Most apostates are convinced even after their excommunication that they understand the Scriptures and the Gospel better than the Churches leaders. I am sorry you have taken this path.


Therefore sadly this invalidates you entire post about what Doctrines and scriptures are. I will stand by the Talk from the Brethren and manuals rather than your opinions. Are you really LDS or have you already left the church?

This week is the first time I have really called out apostate comments when I have seen them. This kind of thing makes me less likely to have much to do with this site, until it is straightened out.

This is a good example why we must be careful on this site....we can get lead astray and influenced by those that are on shaky ground.

[Original_Intent]

1) Standard Works
2) Official Declarations and Proclamations/articles of faith
3) Manuals/Magazines etc (including conference talks)
4) other church materials
5) primary songs (jk)

I would only change it

1) Personal Revelation
1) Standard Works (to be studied and understood via Personal Revelation)
2) Official Declarations and Proclamations/articles of faith (and we are commanded to seek confirmation via Personal Revelation)
3) Manuals/Magazines etc (including conference talks) (aside from the conference talks I would say some of these materials practically have to be sifted, i.e. articles by Joe Shmoe)
4) other church materials (varies from scriptural to...Joe Shmoe)
5) primary songs (jk)

I have had a strong conviction throughout my life that the transcendant goal of any religion MUST BE to develop a one on one relationship with God. False religions share the common attribute of INTERVENING betweent eh individual and God, and that is the basis of priestcraft. (i.e. YOU can't talk to God but I (a man) will tell you what God wants.)

Before I get accused of apostasy let me jsut say that all three goals of the church lead indivuals, either living or dead, towards that relationship. The level of intimacy between God and a prophet, and between God and a bishop, and between God and a Nursery leader, ideally should be the same, the only difference is the scope of their stewardship. Although I am not worthy of it, I believe Father wants to guide me in guiding my family as DIRECTLY, as POWERFULLY and as PERSONALLY as He communicates with the prophet in guiding the church.

[Mark]

Well Black Swan it is very revealing where you stand on the Brethren, since they are Satan's bait to lead us astray...........

Is that your site you quote Black Swan :weeping for zion? http://www.weepingforzion.com/?p=252

Having heard my share of apostate drivel over the years I can sniff out an apostate site from a mile away. This weeping for zion garbage is just that. Pride and creating doubt are prevalent in all of them. This one is no different than the rest based on what you have posted Bella. Why would any LDS want to waste time on this tripe? Lets post Sterling Allens site as well. I'm sure he can give us some astute counsel on how to get the church back on track..

[Rosabella]

Well Black Swan it is very revealing where you stand on the Brethren, since they are Satan's bait to lead us astray...........

Is that your site you quote Black Swan :weeping for zion? http://www.weepingforzion.com/?p=252

Having heard my share of apostate drivel over the years I can sniff out an apostate site from a mile away. This weeping for zion garbage is just that. Pride and creating doubt are prevalent in all of them. This one is no different than the rest based on what you have posted Bella. Why would any LDS want to waste time on this tripe? Lets post Sterling Allens site as well. I'm sure he can give us some astute counsel on how to get the church back on track..

Good old Sterling...He has very strong ideas too. He really feels he understands the Scriptures better then any GA. He wrote a book and said it was going to be more important to the future generations then the book of Mormon. He was ex in the early 90's. He thought he has a solid testimony of the Gospel and thought he had a very very close relationship with God. He believed his personal revelations over all else, which lead him right out of the Church.

It is pride not to want to be a sheep.

[Original_Intent]

Well Black Swan it is very revealing where you stand on the Brethren, since they are Satan's bait to lead us astray...........

Is that your site you quote Black Swan :weeping for zion? http://www.weepingforzion.com/?p=252

Having heard my share of apostate drivel over the years I can sniff out an apostate site from a mile away. This weeping for zion garbage is just that. Pride and creating doubt are prevalent in all of them. This one is no different than the rest based on what you have posted Bella. Why would any LDS want to waste time on this tripe? Lets post Sterling Allens site as well. I'm sure he can give us some astute counsel on how to get the church back on track..

Good old Sterling...He has very strong ideas too. He really feels he understands the Scriptures better then any GA. He wrote a book and said it was going to be more important to the future generations then the book of Mormon. He was ex in the early 90's. He thought he has a solid testimony of the Gospel and thought he had a very very close relationship with God. He believed his personal revelations over all else, which lead him right out of the Church.

It is pride not to want to be a sheep.

So when Nephi received personal revelation to kill Laban, he should have said "but the scriptures say...." or "but the prophets say..."? Certainly we have to make sure of the source of the revelation as we are literally taking our salvation into our own hands - but isn't that exactly what Heavenly Father wants?
In my opinion personal revelation trumps everything.
Before you bring up Korihor let me just nip that in the bud - Korihor KNEW that he was being "deceived" and that he was heeding his "angel of light" because it told him what he wanted to hear. I say deep down we MUST always know the source

[ChelC]

Something I read about apostasy recently is that an apostate seldom knows he is one. This is certainly true in my life. When I have not accepted certain principles of the gospel or have been otherwise disobedient, I never felt that I was on the road to apostasy. There are doctrines I'm guilty now of treating lightly. When I look back over previous misdeeds and shortcomings though, I always thought that in spite of this that or the other, I was spiritually strong. What I think I really felt was that I loved Heavenly Father and the Lord and knew they loved me. I don't think anyone realizes their apostasy until they either rise above it, or sink low enough that they stop loving the Lord. The signs are always there, but they are easy to deny.

One of my regrets is discussing with a friend in high school about her then sexual relationship with her boyfriend. She asked me if I thought she was terrible and I told her that if the worst thing she was guilty of was an act of love that couldn't be too bad. I knew she was wrong, but I minimized it for her and I believed every bit of what I said at the time, while also believing myself to be a spiritual person. Only after learning better could I recognize that I was openly rejecting truth.

I think we need to remember this in our discussions. We can lead a horse to water, but we can't make him drink. Truth doesn't need a defense, it just needs people who stand and live by it. Eventually, with our love they will rise up to a knowledge of it. I cannot back down from a truth that I have a testimony of, which has been confirmed to me. I can be willing to listen to and weigh other ideas and decide if any portions of my belief are based on false assumptions related to the revealed truth. I can stand firm without getting offended at those who choose not to or who are not ready to accept what I know.

I need to constantly remind myself of those things, because it's easy to let my pride rise up to defend those things which are precious to me, even when they do not require a defense.

[Rosabella]

Yes personal revelation is vital,f or it is even how we find out the Church is true.

We must keep in mind at all times the dangers therein also of personal revelation. As we saw in the early church, with Joseph Smith many members started to receive what seemed to be "true revelations" and manifestations, but were not; they were false. Lucifer is cunning and is quick to offer a counterfeit as soon as pride slips in us. It is a very hard thing to tell the difference. We will choose ultimately between two voices, or two Shepherds. This will decide where are heart really is. So our personal revelations will be just that, they will guide us closer to the Lord or away. If they are leading us out of he Church or casting doubts about the Church, yet we had a confirmation of its truthfulness before, then we can know we are being lead astray. If a person has never had a confirmation of the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel they need to do that, then after that they merely have to ask one question. Please confirm to me the truthfulness that the Church is being lead by you Father. This should be an easy answer if you are humble. However it will be hard to discern if pride has taken your heart and is creating an emotion of I am right or My will not Thine. This includes our Faith in the Brethren for we are told they ARE the mouth piece of God on earth and are to be heard and trusted as such. If not then there is no reason to be LDS. We can go off and create our own beliefs in whatever we want through our own inspirations and interpretations of Scriptures and that is sadly what many do and fall away.

[Black Swan]

Well Black Swan it is very revealing where you stand on the Brethren, since they are Satan's bait to lead us astray...........

Is that your site you quote Black Swan :weeping for zion? http://www.weepingforzion.com/?p=252

Having heard my share of apostate drivel over the years I can sniff out an apostate site from a mile away. This weeping for zion garbage is just that. Pride and creating doubt are prevalent in all of them. This one is no different than the rest based on what you have posted Bella. Why would any LDS want to waste time on this tripe? Lets post Sterling Allens site as well. I'm sure he can give us some astute counsel on how to get the church back on track..

Good old Sterling...He has very strong ideas too. He really feels he understands the Scriptures better then any GA. He wrote a book and said it was going to be more important to the future generations then the book of Mormon. He was ex in the early 90's. He thought he has a solid testimony of the Gospel and thought he had a very very close relationship with God. He believed his personal revelations over all else, which lead him right out of the Church.

It is pride not to want to be a sheep.

It is also pride to throw out a straw man argument to avoid the real discussion at hand. Notice, the original discussion was about the standard works and "official doctrine", not about someone's website or anything else they've written. Using what they've written about the temple and tithing, regardless of how you or I feel about it, is a straw man argument plain and simple. That is also pride. Pride in that you're presenting a fallacy through an irrelevant topic in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea behind these sorts of arguments is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the original argument and to another topic, that being the website and the issues you have with it.

For as much "respect" as everyone pays you here on this website and elsewhere, I'm taken aback by your childish and adolescent attacks on anything that challenges your flawed paradigm. We ALL have flawed paradigms and yet some of us apparently feel the need to defend those flawed paradigms by attacking as "apostate" anything that challenges the way we think. The following statement, made by Bella, is instructive in that we see not only flawed reasoning (using a straw man argument), but we also see an effort to discredit everything else by, at best, a tenuous association of two parts altogether unrelated:

Therefore sadly this invalidates you entire post about what Doctrines and scriptures are. I will stand by the Talk from the Brethren and manuals rather than your opinions. Are you really LDS or have you already left the church?

Case in point: the discussion on the standard works above. I am not the author of the article on the "Importance of the Standard Works", nor am I associated with the website, but the article is very thought provoking and yet, as you and several others would have it, the interest in this discussion is being deflected from it to the website. Classic straw man argument aimed at avoiding the discussion.

Truth be told, I think it's because some of you have some sort of "idea" or "belief system" you feel like defending, instead of embracing truth "come from whence it may". That is the "self" overpowering the "spirit"...but then again, that would go against our flawed paradigms so we throw the baby out with the bath water. These same sorts of attacks happened to ereves in another thread on "Satan's Plan". Attacked ad nauseum by those unwilling to check their egos at the door...and it's happening again here.

In returning to the argument at hand (i.e. the importance of "manuals" in establishing or teaching church doctrine), it's equally telling that we conveniently skipped over not only the discussion on the standard works vs. manuals, or how apostasy is "accelerated" by those who believe in the infallibility of our leaders, but also Joseph F. Smith's statement on revelation (revelation from leaders of the church) which goes contrary to those standard works, as well as Hugh Nibley statement on those LDS who are "strangely touchy" about controversial topics and who gloss over the errors AND evasions in manuals because they've accepted the false notion that the prophets will teach us all we need to know. It's easy to see that there are many people on this site who fall into that category.

But, oops, it wasn't said by a "brethren" so we can throw that out with the bathwater too!!

I'm beginning to see how Brigham Young's prophetic statement could happen...

President Brigham Young once said the following about this scripture (D&C 85:7 which talks about setting in order the House of God):

Brethren, this church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people, then God will send the one mighty and strong spoken of in the 85th section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this church. (Brigham Young, Truth, March 1, 1936, 1:10, p. 135)

Is it any wonder that the Book of Mormon offers us the following depiction of the people who have gone astray (apostatized) in the last days?

They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men. (2 Nephi 28:14)

Interestingly, a few verses prior to and immediately following this verse it talks about "false doctrines" being taught in the church by false teachers. Ezra Taft Benson even spoke of this:

Not only are there apostates within our midst, but there are also apostate doctrines that are sometimes taught in our classes and from our pulpits and that appear in our publications. And these apostate precepts of men cause our people to stumble. As the Book of Mormon, speaking of our day, states: “They have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men” (2 Nephi 28:14). (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, Pg.89 90)

Joseph Fielding Smith stated the same sort of teaching this way:

It is a very apparent fact that we have traveled far and wide in the past 20 years. What the future will bring I do not know. But if we drift as far afield from fundamental things in the next 20 years, what will be left of the foundation laid by the Prophet Joseph Smith? It is easy for one who observes to see how the apostasy came about in the primitive church of Christ. Are we not traveling the same road? (Joseph Fielding Smith Journal, 28 December 1938)

Notice the date on that. He's speaking about a window from 1918-1938 and the "drift" far from the "fundamental things" and the foundation the Prophet Joseph Smith laid. Do we think we're any better now, some 70 years later. Joseph Fielding Smith was concerned about the next 20 years (through 1958), and yet here we are in 2009 and we think somehow our manuals and doctrines have been kept pristine since then, let alone since Joseph Smith was on the earth? That's pure foolishness and ignorance.

Those quotes are from the mid-to-late 1900s. Church leaders were even concerned about it in the 1800s, by Orson Pratt. To that point:

There must be a reformation. There will be a reformation among this people, but He will plead with the stronger ones of Zion, He will plead with this people, He will plead with those in high places, He will plead with the priesthood of this church, until Zion shall become clean before him. I do not know but what it would be an utter impossibility to commence and carry out some principles pertaining to Zion right in the midst of this people. They have strayed so far that to get a people who would conform to heavenly laws it may be needful to lead some from the midst of this people and commence anew in the regions round about in these mountains. (JD 15:360, underline added)

And yet somehow we think that our doctrines are perfect today, that the doctrines we have today are the same we had in the 1800s, that our manuals will save us and teach us all we need to know!!

Go ahead. Call me apostate for using these quotes, for arguing with my flawed paradigm against your flawed paradigm. I will, in closing, wholeheartedly agree with the poster who mentioned personal revelation as the #1 item on the list of things we are to follow, the "iron rod" as it were.

As an effectual preventative against all false doctrine against all strifes and divisions, against all contentions and controversies in the Church God has placed within it a great and infallible teacher or revelator, called the Comforter, who cannot err. With such a revelator, certainty and knowledge abound in every heart; parables mysteries and intricate subjects are unravelled; guess work conjectures and opinions flee away. With such a guide there is no danger of being deceived. The elect cannot be deceived; for they have an infallible detector of all delusions, however cunningly devised: they have a test by which they can try all things prove all things judge all things and overcome all things not ordained of God; they can soar aloft to the third heavens and gaze upon the mansions of the blessed where the highest order of intelligence reigns: or they can descend in the visions of the spirit and behold the kingdoms, dominions, principalities and powers, in worlds of an inferior order, in the great scale of universal existence. (Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of Book of Mormon, No. 2 (1850), p.26 - p.27

[milkman]

bella I appreciate your zeal. I've read many of your posts and rants and can see how strongly you feel. Honestly though, we can be civil in the discussion. In fact, we HAVE to be or else both cannot be edified, and there is no spirit in it.

The weeping for Zion website is mine. I write it there because people won't allow discussion in the church. We all have to fit in the same box of belief or that belief is silenced. Even if President Monson doesn't agree with them, the people treat him and the things that come from headquarters as an all knowing dictator that needs to be protected. I have nothing against Him, and I sustain him in His calling-if that means doing what he asks or beggin for repentance. I have nothing against you. Believe it or not I am in good standing in the church. And see no reason why I should not remain. A dissenting vote is not always the evil vote. If I see things that are not in accord with prior revelation, its my job to point it out, discuss, try to understand, call repentance where its needed and repent myself when its needed. As president Monson himself stated,

"When you & I know of such conduct (any abuse or false teaching) and fail to take action to eradicate it (like speak up), we become part of the problem. We share in the guilt. We experience part of the punishment."
Pres. Monson, CR Oct. 1991"

ZION will always remain as it is now, scattered throughout the earth, in condemnation, kicked out of the land of its inheritance, chastened until a people rises up zealous of truth (section 101, 103, 105). We must try to rid the things that brought condemnation on their heads in the first place, pride and rejection of law (which we continue to reject). Its on our shoulders, not president Monson's, to be a better people. If we have things to repent of, shouldn't we speak up and discuss them? There is no man in this church who is above another.

I am confused as you have stated that there is danger in personal revelation. In my opinion stating this is akin to stating fear of being wrong, fear of 'falling away' fear of not understanding doctrine-at the expense of learning how to learn, to hear his voice. The Pharisees of Jesus' day too kept the people afraid of the Law, afraid of living. They did it through rules, through producing as much curriculum as possible so that they could wake up everyday and live their lives step by step according to the modern law, thus not falling away. They lived by fear, by law, not by 'every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God'-which all individuals are under instruction to do (2nephi 32). They (the jews) shrunk in fear when someone with authority from God Drank in the Bar, denounced the Law, worked on Sunday, skipped church and interpreted Doctrine contrary to their understanding. Again I DO agree with modern prophets, as Joseph put it;

"President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel - said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church - that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls - APPLIED IT TO THE PRESENT STATE OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS - SAID IF THE PEOPLE DEPARTED FROM THE LORD, THEY MUST FALL - THAT THEY WERE DEPENDING ON THE PROPHET, HENCE WERE DARKENED IN THEIR MINDS, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy. "
TPJS Section Five 1842-43, p.237-38

the idolatry evidenced in Ezk 14 was that the people went to the prophet for their knowledge of God, not to God himself. They set up a stumbling block, a mediator, for a mediator (our lord and savior).

Now we are here on this website, forcing others to believe as we do through doctrinal oppression rather than persuasion and pure knowledge-out of fear of personal revelation-out of fear of diluting our own paradigms. Though the fact remains that there is no individual salvation without complete reliance on it. I agree than with Brigham,

"I have often said to the Latter-day Saints-- Live so that you will know whether I teach you the truth or not. Suppose you are careless and unconcerned and give way to the spirit of the world, and I am led, likewise,to preach the things of this world and to accept things that are NOT of God, how easy it would be for me to lead you astray! But I say to you, live so that you will know for yourselves whether I tell the truth or not. That is the way we want all Saints to live."
(Brigham Young, JD 18:24)

".and if He (The LORD) should suffer him (Joseph Smith) to lead the people astray, it would be because they ought to be led astray. If He should suffer them to be chastised, and some of them destroyed, it would be because they deserved it.."
(Brigham Young, JD 4:297-29

I have nothing against the President of our church, and will willingly continue to sustain him in his calling. I have nothing against the church itself, there is no anger there. I do however Love the church, I love the BoM, I love all that they have done for us in our lives. As such I feel it our prerogative to bring up and discuss our differences. Its our prerogative to love not chase away, to open eyes and minds, to change our own if need be. MANY prophets have called the leadership and general church membership to repentance in scripture. Christ Himself is the greatest example of this, especially in light of Joseph saying we are like the Jews of old, and I assert we've only become more so.

"I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latterday Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine. (Joseph)"

As you can see, we don't agree. But, what is so evil about that? The evil lies in not making an honest attempt to see eye to eye and strive to bring again Zion. If we are both doing our best to call repentance through love, we will end up in the same place-allowing that we don't let pride get in the way.

[Black Swan]

I'd like to add one more thing...I rec'd a private message, actually a "board warning" saying I'm taking these last quotes out of context and that those quotes refer ONLY to members and not leaders and that I may be prevented from posting any more due to the "apostate" nature of what I said in that last post.

If what I said was out of context, and those quotes are referring to members only, then can someone please explain to me and interpret the following scriptures for me?

1. Ezekiel 14
2. Ezekiel 34
3. Isaiah 28
4. 2 Nephi 28
5. 4 Nephi 1
6. Mormon 8
7. D&C 85
8. D&C 86
9. D&C 101:43-64
10. D&C 76:98-101

If those quotes are only referring to "members" as this moderator asserts, then please read those scriptures and tell me if they are ALL referring to "members" too. Take special not of the words used, especially in the D&C scriptures about who is doing what (or not doing what) and tell me if those are "members" alone.

In closing, I'm only stating these things because of the false traditions being promulgated on this board. I love and pray for our leaders, but I don't have any false notions of what or who they are and aren't, nor do I worship them. I, instead, follow this apparently apostate counsel:

Six of the original Twelve Apostles selected by Joseph Smith were excommunicated. The Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon left the Church. Three of Joseph Smith's counselors fell one even helped plot his death. A natural question that might arise would be that if the Lord knew in advance that these men would fall, as He undoubtedly did, why did He have His prophet call them to such high office? The answer is: to fill the Lord's purposes. For even the Master followed the will of the Father by selecting Judas. President George Q. Cannon suggested an explanation, too, when he stated, “Perhaps it is his own design that faults and weaknesses should appear in high places in order that his saints may learn to trust in him and not in any man or men.” (Millennial Star 53:658, 1891) And this would parallel Nephi's warning, put not your “trust in the arm of flesh.” (2 Nephi 4:34) (An Enemy Hath Done This, Pg. 290, underline added. See also Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, Pg.89)

Then again, I'll probably be told I've taken that out of context too!

[milkman]

JOSEPH SMITH: Millennial Star, Vol 14, Number 38, pages 593-595. [(Apostle Samuel Richards on Nov. 13, 1852, recorded in the Millennial Star, 14:393-395.)] We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them [even] if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves.
-JOSEPH SMITH: Millennial Star, Vol 14, Number 38, pages 593-595.

I've seen and felt many many people go "apostate". Even Orson Pratt was allowed to stay in the church, though he repeatedly denounced forcefully things that were held as the doctrine of the church at the time. Oddly, we now believe the same things as Orson.

Can't we just love each other and discuss differing views? ALL of our paradigms are flawed, there's no way around it.

[ndjili]

In returning to the argument at hand (i.e. the importance of "manuals" in establishing or teaching church doctrine), it's equally telling that we conveniently skipped over not only the discussion on the standard works vs. manuals, or how apostasy is "accelerated" by those who believe in the infallibility of our leaders, but also Joseph F. Smith's statement on revelation (revelation from leaders of the church) which goes contrary to those standard works, as well as Hugh Nibley statement on those LDS who are "strangely touchy" about controversial topics and who gloss over the errors AND evasions in manuals because they've accepted the false notion that the prophets will teach us all we need to know. It's easy to see that there are many people on this site who fall into that category

I'm sorry but the leaders of the church tells us to study the scrpitures. To learn these things for ourselves. Never once have they told us to blindly follow them. Only the lazy do these things but the way you're stating things here on this forum leads one to believe that this is the fault of the leaders of the church and not the lazy members who do not wish to put forth an effort to "follow" the counsel of the leaders of the church and learn what the scriptures say. Personally in talking to many (especially in the younger group)they dont even listen to conference nor read even lesson manuals or church publications because "they grew up Mormon and heard it all before".

If people have trouble believing that our leaders our inspired, then they have trouble trusting the tools that these inspired leaders have put out for our use to help us in our own study of the scriptures. Thse are tools, nothing more. They are there to aid us in our personal study. Thus their importance. The church seems to be doing everything to aid in the study or the scriptures of God. Why? We are now in the time of missionary work. They want people to gain a better understanding of the principles of the gospel so that we can share it. I believe they have these tools to keep us focuced and so we dont interpret the doctrines of man in the scriptures, which is sadly happening with the New Age movement in mainstream Christianity today.

I am confused as you have stated that there is danger in personal revelation. In my opinion stating this is akin to stating fear of being wrong, fear of 'falling away' fear of not understanding doctrine-at the expense of learning how to learn, to hear his voice. The Pharisees of Jesus' day too kept the people afraid of the Law, afraid of living. They did it through rules, through producing as much curriculum as possible so that they could wake up everyday and live their lives step by step according to the modern law, thus not falling away. They lived by fear, by law, not by 'every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God'-which all individuals are under instruction to do (2nephi 32). They (the jews) shrunk in fear when someone with authority from God Drank in the Bar, denounced the Law, worked on Sunday, skipped church and interpreted Doctrine contrary to their understanding. Again I DO agree with modern prophets, as Joseph put it;

We are told that we can have personal revelation for us or our families, but we are also told that when we recieve such things we are to pray and make sure that this revelation comes from God not the devil.

I'm so sick of hearing dont throw the baby out with the bathwater. 90% water and 10% poison is still all poison. I dont see anyone worshipping the prophet. I just believe that especially in these last days when things are so crazy that God still talks to us. Yes we can have personal revelation but the prophet speaks to the whole church.

I will stand by Bella. There is so much evil outside the church to fight I dont understand all the bickering people do inside it over trivial things. President Monson is our prophet in this time while I love and respect what other prophets say I'll listen to him first. Then pray about what he says and also spend time studying the scriptures like we've been told and if I need use the appropriate tools given by the church which contain things we need to help us battle the evils of our day. and then I'll pray some more.

[kathyn]

Well said, ndjili. I know that when I taught gospel doctrine (twice) that I was to use "approved sources". ( We all know what that means. ) If we are in tune with the proper spirit, we're not going to teach wrong principles. Remember, unless we teach by the Spirit, we aren't teaching what Heavenly Father would have us teach. And it's also incumbent upon us as class members to have the Holy Ghost with us so that we can discern truth for ourselves.

As ndjili said, it's the lazy members who don't find out truth for themselves. We can't shift the blame for our own understanding of the Gospel to anyone else.

It's also good to remember that each of us is human and none of us does or says everything 100% doctrinally correct all of the time. But if we are teaching by the Spirit, it will take care of any misconceptions we might have. When I read the scriptures and when I listen to the conference talks, I can know by the Spirit if these things are true. So it all comes back to each of us and our personal responsibility.

[Mark]

The weeping for Zion website is mine. I write it there because people won't allow discussion in the church. We all have to fit in the same box of belief or that belief is silenced. Even if President Monson doesn't agree with them, the people treat him and the things that come from headquarters as an all knowing dictator that needs to be protected. I have nothing against Him, and I sustain him in His calling-if that means doing what he asks or beggin for repentance. I have nothing against you. Believe it or not I am in good standing in the church. And see no reason why I should not remain. A dissenting vote is not always the evil vote. If I see things that are not in accord with prior revelation, its my job to point it out, discuss, try to understand, call repentance where its needed and repent myself when its needed.

Oh goody another free thinking open minded intellectual type. Listen Milkman give me the name of your Stake President and I will be happy to send him some of the stuff that Bella referred to on your website and have you visit with him further about all that open-mindedness you seem to treasure. You know stuff like:

In order to worship at the temple, in order to offer your proxy sacrifice, you can for a small sum rent clothing from the temple for the days service. After all, it is as it should be, you can have anything in this world for money.

or how about this:

Are the things of Caesar really welcome in the temple? or do they provide a moment of Babylonian businees, of building up the things of the world, before being allowed to enter the house of Lord?

Maybe we can send him over this:

Though they make sure to tell you on the tour that we don’t worship the Idol, we only use it as a reminder, the fact remains an graven image was made unto us.

As the original Command confirms: “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”

No doubt here we have an 11 foot high likeness of something that is on the earth, in the heavens, etc…Can’t we call it for what it is? Its an idol, the work of men’s hands, erected of all places on temple Squares, and near various temples throughout the globe.

Now if I have misjudged you and you are not responsible for this stuff that is being posted on your site and do not support its content please by all means let me know so I can apologize for jumping to conclusions. If this does however represent how you feel then you really do need to visit with your Stake President. Bring your recommend along with you on that visit if you have one.

[ereves]

I'm reminded of the phrase, "Support our Troops." What do people mean by this? Usually what people mean is support any American war regardless of the circumstances, afterall those are "our boys" out there, and those who don't support the war are obviously unpatriotic and don't support our troops. War is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength.

This is highly ironic - and flawed - because if supporting the troops is truly our goal than we will do everything we can to understand the conflicts we are sending them into. We will get them out of a conflict if we realize they shouldn't be there. We will not blindly support any war, because afterall, these are human beings we're dealing with, on both sides. These are the true patriots and the true supporters of the troops. War is never peace, slavery is never freedom, and ignorance is never strength.

Now, I'm not sure but the label "apostate" seems to mean here those who do not support the brethren. "Support the Brethren!" is the rallying cry. When someone says something that doesn't fall in line with what they consider to be supporting the brethren they bust out the label.

This is highly ironic - and flawed - because the only ones actually appealing to scripture and statements by the brethren are those who are being labeled as apostate. I'm not joking. All the rest are having to resort to personal jabs, blacklisting and appealing to emotions. Let’s ask ourselves, what is true patriotism, what is truly sustaining our leaders. Are you really supporting our troops, are you really supporting the brethren? Let’s see sources.

I mentioned that if you weren’t interested in posting on my “official doctrine” thread, I’d be happy to post it here. I will do so below. Bella, Mark, ndjili, kathyn, and others, I’m sincerely interested to know what you have to say concerning the matter (but not so much what you have to say regarding your opinions of others’ spiritual wellbeing ) I would love to discuss your viewpoints but could you please provide us with some evidence for your arguments… for things like manuals and conference talks are just as important as the standard works? I haven’t been able to find any statements by the brethren that support that. Perhaps you have some?

[ereves]

I thought it might be helpful to post some things that the church has published regarding official doctrine. Here are three things I considered very helpful and pertinent to the topic, feel free to include additional information.

Should that which is written in Church publications and lesson manuals be taken as official doctrine?

Dean L. Larsen, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, Aug. 1977, 38

Elder Dean L. Larsen of the First Quorum of the Seventy and Managing Director of Curriculum Resources

Church publications fall into four general categories: (1) materials related to the curriculum, such as lesson manuals, teachers’ supplements, and student materials; (2) magazines; (3) administrative documents, such as handbooks, leadership training materials, organizational guidelines and bulletins, etc.; and (4) missionary discussions, tracts, and support materials. All of the materials within these four categories are prepared under the direction of some officially recognized Church agency, and they are reviewed and cleared by the Church Correlation Review committees before they are published and issued to the Church.

A wide range of hardbound books, pamphlets, and other printed materials is constantly being printed and placed on the market by independent publishing companies. Many of these materials deal with religious matters. Some are written by Church members, including General Authorities. Publications that fall into this category are not generally authorized by the Church. The authors, compilers, and publishers assume full responsibility for the content and do not seek or receive official Church endorsement.

Over the years a careful selection of these hardbound, independently published books has been made and approved by the First Presidency and the Twelve for placement in Church meetinghouse libraries. They are to serve as approved resource materials for priesthood leaders, teachers, and the general membership. Any additions to this “authorized list” of hardbound books must be approved by the First Presidency and the Twelve. The number of books on this list is small. They can be identified by meetinghouse librarians.

While the content of the approved Church publications identified above does not claim the same endorsement that the standard works receive, nonetheless they are prepared with great care and are carefully screened before they are published. Writers of curriculum materials must be cleared by the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve. Their product is reviewed closely by the heads of the organizations that are responsible for their implementation. Correlation Review committees check carefully for doctrinal accuracy and for harmony with established Church policies and procedures.

The General Handbook of Instructions is not only reviewed by Correlation, but also receives a close auditing from each individual member of the First Presidency and the Twelve.

Church magazines draw their content from a wide range of authors and contributors, in addition to those who serve as professional staff members. Those items that are published in the magazines receive not only the scrutiny and judgment of the editing staffs, but are also subject to clearance by the Correlation Review committees. Committee members are called as a result of their expertise in such areas as Church doctrine, Church history, and Church administration, and serve three different age groups: adult, youth, and children.

Much care is exercised to make certain that the official publications of the Church carry messages that are sound in doctrine and fully in harmony with currently approved policies and procedures. A constant effort is maintained to upgrade and correct the content of these materials so that they can merit the confidence and approval of Church leaders and the general membership.

All official Church publications that have received the clearance described above will carry the designation “Copyright © Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
(http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD)

(Sidenote: when I got done reading this one (above) I looked back at the top of the article and noticed it says, “Questions of general gospel interest answered for guidance, not as official statements of Church policy.” (click on the link to see it) I almost died laughing because of the irony. )

Approaching Mormon Doctrine
Much misunderstanding about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints revolves around its doctrine. The news media is increasingly asking what distinguishes the Church from other faiths, and reporters like to contrast one set of beliefs with another.
The Church welcomes inquisitiveness, but the challenge of understanding Mormon doctrine is not merely a matter of accessing the abundant information available. Rather, it is a matter of how this information is approached and examined.
The doctrinal tenets of any religion are best understood within a broad context (see here and here), and thoughtful analysis is required to understand them. News reporters pressed by daily deadlines often find that problematic. Therefore, as the Church continues to grow throughout the world and receive increasing media attention, a few simple principles that facilitate a better understanding may be helpful:
• Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
• Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.
Based on the scriptures, Joseph Smith declared: “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”
• Because different times present different challenges, modern-day prophets receive revelation relevant to the circumstances of their day. This follows the biblical pattern (Amos 3:7), in which God communicated messages and warnings to His people through prophets in order to secure their well-being. In our day, President Gordon B. Hinckley has repeatedly emphasized the importance of the family in our increasingly fractional society. In addition, the Church does not preclude future additions or changes to its teachings or practices. This living, dynamic aspect of the Church provides flexibility in meeting those challenges. According to the Articles of Faith, “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.”
(http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng ... n-doctrine)

Bible Dictionary (Intro)

This dictionary has been designed to provide teachers and students with a concise collection of definitions and explanations of items that are mentioned in or are otherwise associated with the Bible. It is based primarily upon the biblical text, supplemented by information from the other books of scripture accepted as standard works by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is not intended as an official or revealed endorsement by the Church of the doctrinal, historical, cultural, and other matters set forth. Many of the items have been drawn from the best available scholarship of the world and are subject to reevaluation based on new research and discoveries or on new revelation. The topics have been carefully selected and are treated briefly. If an elaborate discussion is desired, the student should consult a more exhaustive dictionary.

(I thought it was very significant that the church would point out that not even the Bible Dictionary is intended to be "an official or revealed endorsement by the Church.")

[sbsion]

I have a questiion........does church doctrine always agree with the fullness of the gospel?

[milkman]

sbsion. IMO If it did there wouldn't have been so many apostasies of Christ's Churches throughout history. Should it? I believe so. Does it? we are only men. What of consecration, the united order, adoption and gathering? Presently they are not the policy of the church, but the fulness of the gospel demands it.

What about polygamy? It was once essential to salvation according to Joseph, Brigham and John Taylor. Today, its "behind us. I condemn it as a practice. It is not doctrinal. It is not legal.(pres Hinckley on CNN)".
I don't know if you wanted my opinon, but thats it. They differ at times and thats alright. All is not well in Zion as Nephi told us.

But thats the point! salvation is an indiviudal race! seek christ and strive not to push others under the bus who are trying to do the same.

Mark, you are using my Membership in the church as a hammer over my head, threatening to send me to the stake presidency? I've been there, I know them well, served in those councils and bishoprics and have nothing to fear from priesthood moderation. The idea is silly really, as using the priesthood to weild influence simply renders it inoperable.

I have no problem with the quotes of mine you wrote there. I invite your intelligent and honest discussion on them. Tell me how those types in scripture don't apply to us?

This is all I am saying in those quotes:

I have a problem with Money in the temple. I have a problem with having an 11 foot tall graven image of my God on temple square. I know other people in history that have felt the same and have no problem siding with them. I believe that the types and shoadow in the BoM and other scriptures are playing out before our eyes. It was written for us, every story in there, and when applied will change our lives for the better. that new covenant is the only way to see as Christ sees and be one with him in bringing together Zion. We can do that together if we wouldn't tear down those around us who seek for the same.

Where is the scripture saying that I am wrong? Call me apostate, I don't mind at all, nor do I mind the other things you will call or insinuate. I am simply hoping to open an avenue for discussion. My pondering of sacred writ and the types of the BoM lends me to ask questions, when they are applied to me and us.
So, tell me as section 121 says, where I am wrong-using persuasion, long suffering and pure knowledge?

I can say with Mormon in chapter 8 by asking;

33 O ye wicked and perverse and astiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring ddamnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.
34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love amoney, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that bmisery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

I then invite you, without malice or stife, to honor those questions. To discuss doctrine openly without fear of recourse. No need to fear, because I don't mind if youere wrong and would hope if I am that you could plainly show it. I believe others here have the ability to discern for themselves, nothing to fear, no one to 'protect'. To seek Christ in all things that we do, for the spirit that he sends. If we cannot rely on personal revelation and the scriptures as handbook of instruction, what do we have left? do we really think that all our paradigms are correct? Can we honestly say that we have even begun to understand the depth of already revealed doctrine?

About our leaders. I believe them to be men doing what they can in their callings. I sustain them in those callings. As the DC 107 states, it would be wise for them to be as moses in prophecy, seership and revelation. If they are is up to them in their callings. If they did they would always agree. I will let them have their agency. It is then my duty to respond to direction in fasting and prayer, with disernment. Men can and do make mistakes. Many of our leaders have made multiple errors in doctrine and guidance, which is plainly evidenced by the dichotomies of belief between then and now, wherein leaders today have publically decried doctrine of the past. WHO cares? They were doing their best and we ours. They are men and we are too. The Judgment on those matters of doctirine and direction leaves me on one side doctrinally, but I don't have to side Against the men who are striving in their calllings.

how can I not voice my thoughts though, especially on issues like these? Are they not important?

[sbsion]

well said milkman..........thanks, of course, there is more.....what doctrine governs the rotation of the earth?