LDS Freedom Forum

I have been wanting to post this question for a while, but haven't because this is a political forum. However, since the practice of polygamy and politics have close ties, and since this site contains the most intelligent members I know, I thought I'd give it a try. (Note to mods: please move to off-topic if necessary.)

I have to warn you beforehand that this question is based on acceptance of polygamy as a spiritual principle and my perspective on this matter is skewed by the feminist views of the world which I was brought up with, so please look past the obvious prejudice in the question and see if you guys can give me a real answer. I find that acknowledging my prejudices and asking the questions I have is the only way to get past them. Anyway, here's what I was wondering:

Polygamy seems a bit advantageous to the man but not the women. He gets to have many wives, but she only gets one husband. Now, of course physically this all makes sense, but still, why do the men get the blessing of having wives added to them while the women do not? The Lord makes it quite clear that men who receive polygamous wives do so because they are more faithful (see D&C 132:53). But what about the women who are more faithful?

Just to prove that I'm not asking a rhetorical question to vent resentment, let me give you a few thoughts I have had about what the answer might be. There is another thing that bugs me about gender differences in the gospel and that is that men seem to get the short end of the stick. A woman's role is to nurture the children and so she is blessed with qualities that allow her to do so, such as patience, the ability to trust and be submissive, etc., which are generally in line with Christian values. Men are also given qualities that allow them to better fulfill their role as provider and protector, but these qualities seem to make it harder for them to embrace the gospel. Examples are the urge to compete, possessiveness, a diminished ability to sympathize with others. (Let me know if I'm off base here.)

So the answer might be that men really have to work harder to attain Celestial Glory, so they also deserve to receive more. This would also answer the question of why plural marriage is possible in eternity at all, since about the same number of men as women are born into the world.

The problem with the answer I've come up with is that it still doesn't seem fair. Why would it be harder for one person just because of his gender? Not to mention the fact that that means women just don't have the opportunity to receive as much as the men, no matter how faithful they are. So, I don't think I've figured out this aspect of polygamy yet and am still looking for a better understanding.

What do you guys think?

I think that polygamy is fair and a blessing to both sexes.

We should consider the nature of men and women, and their established callings and roles.

We must remember that the Lord's house is a house of order, and that He has ordained that men should lead their families in righteousness. The most obvious reason that it's one man to many women and not vice-versa is because the presence of many men prevents any one man from fulfilling his Priesthood responsibilities to lead and preside over the home. Men are to be presidents, and in a home with many men all distinguished as "husbands" there is no clear leader, which is chaotic and disorderly and leads to bad things.

A significant part of a man's calling, and an important piece of his masculinity, is his ability to preside over, provide for, and protect a household. This becomes complicated with the presence of more than one equal husbands.

There is no Priesthood conflict nor threat to the leadership of Priesthood presidency of the home as additional wives are added. Women are given to husbands, but husbands cannot be given but unto the Lord; they cannot become full-fledged spouses to other men as women can become full-fledged wives without upsetting any ordering.

Women are by and large much more social and glory in the society of their sisters, and multiple women are better suited to a household of child-rearing. As such, women can get along without any necessary leadership conflict or contradiction, and they can all assist each other in the upbringing of children and other household duties.

Children can get more specific and specialized care and instruction if there are multiple mothers, and women can receive rest as they need it; instead of waiting all day for the husband to arrive to provide any relief, a tired spouse can hand over some tasks or responsibilities to another wife while their husband is out providing food and raiment for the family. Errands can be run without dragging the kids everywhere, as one wife can remain and babysit while another takes care of the day's necessary comings-and-goings.

I think that we'll all agree wives perform many important tasks for their families. Extra wives can even out the distribution such that each wife is less stressed and happier overall, which happiness ripples throughout the family.

On top of all of these practicalities, wives can enjoy the society and care and love of other women on a full-time, live-in basis, and their companionship can be a great help to the other wives. It seems to my mind that women are happier in groups and societies and men prefer some degree of independence.

Additional wives can avoid complex psychological issues like codependency and can help every spouse involved remain occupied, cared for, and socialized as individual spouses need to leave town to attend family or professional business.

There is a lot of practical benefit and I think women are much better suited for that situation. . I don't think we need to go in depth with the obvious physical and biological benefits to both sexes (briefly, wives want sex comparatively rarely and occasionally go through times when sex is infeasible, unclean, or unhealthy, whereas men wants lots and lots and lots of sex; also many more babies can result from lots and lots of sex if there is more than one woman involved in the rotation).

I believe that if men were in such an arrangement there would be much difficulty maintaining decorum; women mesh much easier than men as far as I have seen. In addition, a multiplicity of men contributes little and discourages the goals our father has set; if there is one man whose profession brings in much, there would be a tendency on the part of some other men to idle. Parts of the masculine identity are stripped as each man feels insufficient to provide for his own family temporally and as his direction and Priesthood leadership and presidency is diluted among a council of other men.

All of that said, I believe that the Lord will make all ways straight in the final reel and that that may rarely necessitate a polyandrous relationship. Celestial law seems much more concerned that all people's needs are met sufficiently than ownership issues.

roserum you have brought up some good points. I think it's interesting to compare your thoughts with zionlist based on gender.

Zionlist has spoken from the ideal point of view, but not a real world one (at least not this telestial one). For example
This statement goes for women as well. when a group of women have no clear female leader within in them, they can become competetive, jealous, petty form cliques and you know the phrase "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." I recently heard of a RS presidency that had to be released because the women got into an argument that led to cursing at each other. Being on the Lord's errand doesn't always keep women from behaving like men.

Here's my querry...
If men and women are equally yoked in marriage to work together, having the husband as the final decision but consulting and hearing counsel from his wife, how do multiple wives get yoked in? How can multiple women be equal with one man?

To me, the main benefit of polygamy is that it gives the practitioners a difficult task from the lord. Like any difficult task from the lord, when properly shouldered, it builds zion and builds the person.

When improperly shouldered, or without the Lord's consent this particular principle breeds damnation. IMO this happened too frequently even when polygamy was sanctioned.

Therefore, I find attraction to this principle distasteful; and I believe god finds attraction to this principle distasteful as well, as evidenced by jacob 2.

So, your question is kinda moot to me. The man gets no net benefit, and neither does the woman. To the man that is more happy in polygamy than his righteous wives, I say: you're a bad man and not fit for the celestial kingdom. Your wives will be given to others.

I would have to agree with zionlist.com as to why the principle, when necessary in god's eyes, is structured the way it is: compatability with gender roles.

Polygamy is a sin when the Lord has not called you to practice it. I think that needs to be noted. The book of Jacob specifically says that it is. And I have found that Men that I know who are eager to practice it aren't usually righteous men or taking care of their families that they do have.

James E Talmage was asked if it was harder for men than women here on earth. He said yes and that they would be recompensed for it in the resurrection. I am not sure how that is going to take place or what it will be.

I think men do not think about having 5 wives all needing their emotional and spiritual needs met by them. Especially since men struggle meeting the emotional and spiritual needs of one wife. I also don't think they thing about what it would be like to have 5 wives all mad at you for the same reason. They would team up together and you would have no hope of winning that argument. EVER. I don't think they think about how hard they would have to work to provide the physical needs of their wives and children.

I know that God is not going to require my husband and I to practice polygamy to reach the Celestial Kingdom(meaning exaltation) because that is not required at this time. That law is not in effect here on earth at this time. In fact God has Commanded us NOT to practice it.

I think that is right, I do not think polygamy is something that we should be "striving for". It is a practiced that has been ordained from time to time to help raise up seed unto the Lord. In the future I believe there will be a time when there are many more women than men, probably due to a war.

I also believe in the Celestial kingdom there will be many more women than men. So in regards to fairness, is it fair that some would be left without an eternal companion and thus unable to progress thru the eternities? Obviously not. I believe as we progress thru the eternities that we will have to learn to sacrifice anything and everything to following the will of Father - children, spouses, everything. While the sacrifice of these things will be real, it will be, I believe, as the scripture says "He that loses his life for my sake shall find it". Those things will become more truly ours as we willingly give them up.

I, for instance, have already accepted that in the eternities God might say that my wife is worthy of someone better than me. I would accept that. My hope would be that by accepting that I would become that better person that she is worthy of. However, I feel that truly letting go could not be based on that hope, I simply will need to trust that the Lord will do what is best and all will be well. I think it must be the case with everything that we must truly submit in everything to the Father, before we can receive everything.

I believe that polygamy, approached properly, should be as much or more of a challenge and responsibility for the husband than for his wife. (The challenges different, but equal). I do not think that polygamy is ever meant to provide more of a reward for the man. People often think of polygamy as a sanctioned harem - I think someone who is truly ready to live the law of polygamy should be just as ready to be sealed (if he was called to) to the homliest, most disagreeable woman in the ward, and be just as good of a husband to her as he would be to the more physically attractive women.

I believe it was Mark Twain that said that when he went to Salt Lake and heard about polygamy he expected that the men would be devil's, but once he got a look at the women he did indeed believe them to be saints.

To look at something that will currently get a person Ex'd is looking far beyond the mark IMO.

According to the BOM the only reason polygamy has ever been allowed (and it's very rare) is for raising seed unto Him. One wife with many husbands doesn't fulfill this purpose.

If polygamy is about raising children unto God like the BOM says, I suspect the best way to prepare for polygamy is to have as many children as possible with your 1 wife right now. The Duggar family includes 18 children. All with one wife. Are you (those who are preparing for polygamy) any better? Are you really preparing? Polygamy: It's about kids!

Yup..and, just what are the eternities all about....hmmmmmmmm Biggest problem I see, is that we approach polygamy from an earthly POV, perhaps, we should approach it from a Celestial POV.....AND, NOT everyone in the Celestial Kingdom is married...hmmmm "...now is the time to prepare..."......for what? hmmmmmmm We can only recieve that which we are willing...hmmmmmmmmmm "..whatever principles of intelligence........will rise with us....."

I believe the technical term for this is PIMP!!!!

Right on Shadow. Before we do a thread like this lets do one on what the prophets have said about birth control and see how many blubber about how their family planning is justified before the Lord because they are...poor, in school, not ready, etc....

We love the Duggars.

I do wonder about all the guys that are always hanging out with the guys and all the gals that are always with their gal pals. I think polygamy is well suited to those types of folks, and they can have it.

I have to agree with you swiss. My best friend in all the world is my husband. I have two girlfriends that I talk to once every one or two weeks. That meets ALL of my needs for female companionship. These two friends on the other hand talk to or see each other everyday. I prefer 'hanging out' with my husband to anyone else I know. To throw a generalization out there saying that women will 'enjoy' polygamy because they need female companionship/help is not good enough.

Roserum, I too have questioned this for a long time, and have spent many hours stuggling to understand. My biggest question is if I am equal in worth and value to my husband, and we are to commit ourselves to each other 100%, where does another woman fit into an equasion like that. If I give myself 100% to my husband, and he gives himself 100% to me, which we are commanded to do, how can he give himself 100% to another woman, and to me. One thing I know for sure is that the Lord is aware of our stuggles. I have had a hard time with this since I was teenager and realised the implications of it. My poor seminary teacher! I bomdbarded him with my questions concerning polygamy. I have had some of my questions answered and my some of my fears put at ease concerning this. But only after many years and hours of stuggling with the Lord over this. Only when I learned to humble myself and lay my heart wide open to him have I got any answers, and I thank him always for his loving concern for me in giving me some answers. Not all of the answers by any means, but enough that I could move forward knowing that it was not going to be an ultimatum to gain salvation. I cannot express how thankful I am to the Lord for giving me a little understanding concerning this.


One thing I have learned over the years is that we all have our issues. We all stuggle with something and the Lord is truely the only one who can help us solve any of our problems. He is the only one who truely understands. I supose that is the main reason we have any trials, so we can learn to turn to the Lord completely.

Another element to throw into the equation is Eve's curse. Eve put the pants on first and thus had to take a back seat, but for how long? Not beyond this life I believe. That sure changes the rules/roles by which the games we play are played.

What curse?

The first thought I had when I read the focus of this discussion it, there is no way to properly address this because we are not Celestial and do not have an understanding of Celestial views, conditions or other important items that would generate realistic responses.

So here is my Celestial lacking thought.

We tend to thing of a husband and wife as two different people with two personalities, slightly different goals and ambitions. Our thoughts about polygamy are heavily influenced by this.

What if? In the Celestial world, the man is not without the woman, nor the woman without the man. A man and a woman become one in such a way that the adding of wives to the husband is adding them to the wife also? That all are edified equally? That each role although independant in that sphere in which it was created are so intertwined that glorification comes from the magnification of each role. That the view of a man and a women as being one, is exactly that?! In other words, in some way that we can not understand, the wife will be just as happy, just as glorified, just as pleased to have other wives added to their entity of oneness. A man and a woman are meant to be as one. The examples we have on earth of this are only in similitude of the real thing.

I have never understood why women have trouble with this particular item. For those of you with more than one child, is there some finite amount of love you have for your children that must be divided amongst them, or do you love them all infinitely? Does having more children somehow take away from the love you already have for your existing children? Absolutely not. I find my capacity to love increases with each child I welcome into my home. Because of that increased love, I am a better father to the children I already have. Hopefully that makes sense?

It seems to me that polygamy gets a bad rap because it is always discussed in a worldly context. The scriptures teach that our relationships in eternity will be coupled with eternal glory. When we are all filled with the pure love of Christ to overflowing we will not feel the insecurity/competitiveness/jealousy that we feel now. Whether in a monogamous or polygamous marriage in the hereafter, our relationships will be perfected. We will simply seek the wellbeing of those around us. Our unity will be like the unity of a prayer circle. In a prayer circle we are all bound together in doing the will of the Lord. We act as one. There are no issues with ownership.....and lets be honest, ownership and sex are the issues most people seem concerned about when it comes to polygamy.

Now let me state here, I am not anxiously awaiting the day when I can live the law of polygamy, but I am reconciled to the law intellectualy and can see how such a marriage could provide joy for all the participants. If each participant, man and women alike, were to care for each other's needs with perfect Christ-like love, it would be a wonderful marriage to be a part of.

Now like I said, I'm not ready to run off with a bunch of women to some compound in Colorado city, but when viewed from an eternal perspective, leaving prejudice aside I don't see any problem with the principle of polygamy.

Would you accept that from your wife bringing home other guys?

What curse? By curse, I meant "curse." Doesn't your wife curse? Oh actually not that curse...

Here is an interesting thought:
In Moses 4:22 God states that "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Does that infer that her desire was not previously to her husband?

Life itself is a curse in it's/our imperfections. Being ruled by men is definitely a curse here and now. I think the equation was justified by Eve's taking the reigns and running with them. First shall be last and the last shall be first and all that.

To answer your question, yes.......if the Lord commanded me to live in a polyandrous marriage I would, because I have confidence he does what is best for me.

But rather than discuss this unrealistic scenario why don't we discuss polygamy. It is an eternal principle. It was restored in these latter days much like blood sacrifice will be. I may never be required to live it and that's fine, but if I am asked to live it I will submit to the will of my Heavenly Father.

Polygamy is a principle of sacrifice. Abraham was required to sacrifice his son, we are required to sacrifice our wealth for tithing. Many of us have covenanted to sacrifice everything we have and are if required. Polygamy would operate in a similar manner. It would test our faith and would require us to sacrifice everything........even some of our preconceived notions about celestial life and marriage. I hope I would have the faith to pass the test.

Edit* Swiss, I wish you would discuss the other points I made as well, instead of just giving a defensive one-line response.

My wife JoAnn was more woman then I could handle---- and she knew that I knew it.

Bob

I have. And I think that anyone who has will think twice about wishing polygamy on themselves or their wife.

I'd challenge the assertion that the sanction of polygamous relationships by the Lord is "rare". Most of the great prophets and leaders of our religion lived in polygamous relationships. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were privileged to practice polygamy. David and Solomon practiced. Moses practiced. The Latter-day prophets for the first fifty years of this dispensation practiced.

Most importantly, the Almighty Father Himself practices the eternal law of plural celestial marriage. I want to be as much like Him as I can, which means I want to live this law when it's made available to me, too.

One at a time, line upon line...

I don't believe that for those that already seem more than willing the minute the Lord says go. Those anxiously preparing now show that it would be no test of their faith, and a willing sacrifice requiring but little thought.

I agree that we will see a restoration of all things including animal sacrifice and likely polygamy as well, but I do not see anyone here breeding fit livestock so as to be unblemished(okay BG you get a pass here), nor half so excited to prepare for this facet of our blessed future lives.

I don't wonder why.

Are you trying to say that we shouldn't look at/read D&C Section 132? This is our revelation on plural marriage. Plural marriage is part of the law of the priesthood and is the law of marriage in the eternal worlds. The statement in Jacob 2 was given to a people who did not have the fulness of the gospel. They were living under the law of Moses and were not authorized to perform plural marriages. Therefore the statement in Jacob 2 does not apply to the current Church of Jesus Christ.

The practice of plural marriage was only suspended in order for the church to escape destruction at the hand of the US government. The Lord has said that once we have this law revealed to us - if we then reject it - we cannot be permitted to enter into his glory. The church hasn't rejected it. The church has suspended the practice of it - for now. We still believe in it - its in the Scriptures! There are at least two members of the Twelve who are sealed to plural wives. You just have to wait until the first one is dead before being sealed to the next one.

That about covers it.

If a husband or a wife is so concerned about their relationship with each other that they fear polygamy, they do not understand the reproductive aspect of their relationship. Even those couples who are medically unable to have children need to understand the principle surrounding "multiply and replenish the earth." Once a couple understands this principle, the other principles associated with polygamy are more easily accepted.

I think people read section 132 and apply polygamy where it is not discussed.

Really? William Law didn't like plural marriage either...

Professor Truman G. Madsen on the principle of Celestial Plural Marriage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmhjgaB2Hi8

I agree. And any statements by brethren which seem to imply that living polygamy is necessary were spoken to people to whom polygamy had been commanded. Therefore we can throw them out.

Obviously, failure to live polygamy when expected to do so would lead to reduced blessings, perhaps reduced exaltation--so such statements are obviously applicable to those hearing.

To illustrate, if I was commanded to kill laban but did not, it would hurt my salvation... and the prophets would tell me so in addresses. But that doesn't mean that joe who was not commanded to kill laban should say, if he was cursed for not killing laban, then I will be too. I better go (or get ready to) kill laban. That's not righteous of Joe and stems from a lack of the spirit which would help him discern better.

No doubt Joe should prepare in a general way to receive any command from the lord, but should not be surprised if the lord doesn't want him to kill laban.

Women have trouble with this particular item because they are the ones required to share their husband. I would assume men would have the same problems if they were required to share their wives. I cannot even compare my love for my children to my love for my husband. My relationship to my children is completely different from my marriage. I love each of my children equal to each other, but we are not in a marriage relationship with each other. I don't even get why people use this comparision. Do you love your wife the same way you love your children. Your wife is required for your eternal salvation, not your children. Your marriage is an equal partnership, your parent/child relationship is not. I am not my husbands child! Sorry paitriotsaint, I'm not trying to rail on you, I have just heard this comparision so many times and I don't get it.